Why This Is Going To Be A Great Season

[The Shadow]

Ok ,key imjuries can derail any season - but as it looks right now, the Packers are set up for a tremendous season
Why?
Here we go :

1. Aaron Rodgers (and the QB position). Rodgers should now be at the peak of his powers; a fusion of athletic ability + experience (and last year's injury might make him a bit more aware of the dangers of taking unnecessary risks). Flynn & Tolzien (if both make the final 53) are a huge insurance upgrade over last season.
2. The 3 - headed ground game. Lacey, Starks & Harris can keep the RB position fresh AND make Rodgers job significantly easier.
3. The O Line : Baktiari has a year of experience under his belt, Sitton & Lang are a great pair of guards, Bulaga's return solidifies the RT position. Of course, the wild card is Linsley - at least until Trestter's return - but if he can handle things, we look solid.
4. Receivers : Nelson & Cobb are dangerous standbys, Boykin & Adams should be more than adequate #3s. I think Janis makes the team & will be a Jordy-Nelson-in-training.
5. TE Not great, but should be adequate. Quarless seems to be holding the seat for Bostick, but Richard Rodgers might emerge as the best option.
6. The D Line : The real; key player is Daniels, who, if used right, could make another giant jump. The year of experience helps Jones. I think Pennel could be the sleeper - maybe by mid-season making a possible Raji exit next season a non-issue. The line is younger, & faster - and a good rotation could be very effective. PLUS (and a HUGE plus) : Peppers, Neal & Perry could all step in at DE at times - thus keeping that rotation even more fresh.
7. Inside LB : Not a true strength, but Hawk & Jones have now worked together long enough to hold up. Barrington, in Year 2, could start to establish himself here.
8. Outside LB : Mathews, if he can stay healthy, will benefit from Peppers on the other side. Likewise for Peppers. Teams won't be able to automatically double Clay any more. With opponents now so concerned with the edges, look for the inside rush - esp Daniels, but linebackers too - to get more opportunities for sacks & hurries.
9. The Secondary : Having both Hayward & Hyde back there will be huge. Williams & Shield should again be solid - and if House is not just teasing again with preseason flashes - this unit should be a ballhawking machine. AND : Clinton-Dix is learning in the wings + Richardson seems to have also made great strides. Safety now, instead of being a disaster-area, has gone to a major strength.
10. Special Teams : No fan of Slocum, but Crosby, Mastay & Goode are vets, Bush will do his thing - and Harris as a kickoff returner should be fine

In this humble Shadow opinion, the Pack is poised to have a very good - and perhaps great - season.

[wist43]

It all comes down to dunderdummy...

We have the offense, we have enough talent on defense - it all comes down to Dunderdummy of the Spraypainted Hair.

[George Cumby]

Bring on the Kool-Aide! I'm down for a gallon of that red dye 40 goodness!

[MadtownPacker]

Bring on the Kool-Aide! I'm down for a gallon of that red dye 40 goodness!
Sorry ass, it's suppose to be green koolaid. Are you a fucking niners fan?

Nice post Grampa Shadow!! Glad to see you still kicking around.

[VegasPackFan]

Nice post Shadow. We certainly know that it won't be a BAD season by any means. The question is can we peak at the end of the year and finally beat one of the better teams in the playoffs.

[The Shadow]

I think the younger, faster D Line - with great substitution possibilities - will address that.

[MadScientist]

I think the defense will be at least fine, if not pretty good this year. Dom can work with players and this year I think he has enough.

The real key will be the O-line in the first 4-6 games. Not just because Tretter is out, but because under Campen they always suck the first 4-6 games, look ok (often with extra protection) for the next 6-8 and then look pretty decent the last 4 games on the season. If the o-line doesn't suck to start the season, watch out NFC.

[woodbuck27]

If the Pack cam handle the adversity we'll be very happy fans.

[George Cumby]

Sorry ass, it's suppose to be green koolaid. Are you a fucking niners fan?

Nice post Grampa Shadow!! Glad to see you still kicking around.

Yeah. Im a fucktard.

[The Shadow]

I am uncharacteristically optomistic.

[pbmax]

This preseason was the first since Holmgren that I thought I have seen the quality of this team in the preseason. Both Sherman and McCarthy usually seemed to be trying to work out other kinks in the preseason and never had the thing running on all cylinders.

The Packers spent the majority of each quarter either playing level with or beating the opponent in front of them. Titans might have gotten them for a quarter, same with Rams and Shaun Hill. But that was it.

It looks promising. The GBPG said the Packers cut the injuries and lost practices in half this year, despite the list of players headed to IR.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This "accent the positive" shit creeps me out, this is like a tent revival meeting. But I will step forward to testify. I'm encouraged that Micah Hyde won the starting safety job ahead of a first round draft pick. Ha Ha looked fine, nothing to worry about there, but Micah looks like a natural. Last year's critical problem is now a strength. Also, Peppers looks very natural and quick at outside linebacker. As Borat would say, "Great Success."

Praise Jesus, brothers and sisters! Bwa-ba-galla gimme kush kush! (that was some speaking in tongues for the uninitiated)

[The Shadow]

This "accent the positive" shit creeps me out, this is like a tent revival meeting. But I will step forward to testify. I'm encouraged that Micah Hyde won the starting safety job ahead of a first round draft pick. Ha Ha looked fine, nothing to worry about there, but Micah looks like a natural. Last year's critical problem is now a strength. Also, Peppers looks very natural and quick at outside linebacker. As Borat would say, "Great Success."

Praise Jesus, brothers and sisters! Bwa-ba-galla gimme kush kush! (that was some speaking in tongues for the uninitiated)

You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
But don't mess with mister inbetween

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
have faith, a pandemonium
Libel to walk up on the scene

To illustrate my last remark
Jonah in the Whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do
just when everything looked so dark

They said we better
accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
latch on to the affirmative
But don't mess with mister inbetween

[One more Time]

To illustrate my last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do
just when everything looked so dark
don't mess, don't mess, don't mess
with mister inbetween

[Bretsky]

It all comes down to dunderdummy...

We have the offense, we have enough talent on defense - it all comes down to Dunderdummy of the Spraypainted Hair.


You seem to always hedge your bets so you can rip into DOM
What would be your expectation as to what rated defense we should have in GB ?
We don't have top 10 talent here IMO on that side of the ball, but we don't need it either with our explosing offense.
Where do you think we should be ? I'm thinking anything in the fifteen to twenty range would be good and if we are not top twenty that is evidence to lay into DOM.

Looking for your specific view so we can judge Dom off of some expectations given the talent

[The Shadow]

The pass rush will be better this year, and that's a major upgrade.

[texaspackerbacker]

The D will probably be better - pass rush, Safety play, etc., but we still have a significant weakness at ILB.

Possibly the biggest factor for improvement IMO is the apparent commitment to go "hurry up"/no huddle almost all the time. I hope that wasn't just a means of getting more snaps for more people in the preseason.

[wist43]

You seem to always hedge your bets so you can rip into DOM
What would be your expectation as to what rated defense we should have in GB ?
We don't have top 10 talent here IMO on that side of the ball, but we don't need it either with our explosing offense.
Where do you think we should be ? I'm thinking anything in the fifteen to twenty range would be good and if we are not top twenty that is evidence to lay into DOM.

Looking for your specific view so we can judge Dom off of some expectations given the talent

I think we have top 10 talent on defense - that's my bitch against dunderdummy.

Still, you can have all the talent in the world, but if the coaching staff is playing a guy like Raji at CB, and Sam Shields at NT - it aint gonna be pretty. What Dom has done the last 2 years has been unwatchable. A lot of legitimate excuses can be made for 2011, and that falls more on TT, but dunderidiot has been given enough talent to excel, if not dominate.

It is true that TT has not brought in personnel that fit a 3-4, or a 2-4 for that matter - but it is up to the DC to make that work - dunderidiot hasn't done that at all... he keeps running his same old scheme, despite the fact that the players don't fit it.

It'll be interesting to see how he plays the 2-4 in run/pass situations this year, now that he really can't go to his beloved, and mindnumbingly idiotic "jumbo nickel". My guess is that if he lines up in the 2-4 on 3rd and 3, with his DT's being Daniels and Jones - we're gonna get run over pretty consistently. We were 27th in rushing yds allowed last year - if DD doesn't adjust to his personnel, we'll be there again.

I've been saying for a few years now... I like a lot of the defensive talent - if I like the talent, and hate how they're being used, and the results are pathetic... well, I don't think it takes Columbo to figure out that the blame rests with the DC.

Either that, or the talent really does suck - in which case the blame rests with TT... it's one or the other.

[Bretsky]

I think we have top 10 talent on defense - that's my bitch against dunderdummy.

Still, you can have all the talent in the world, but if the coaching staff is playing a guy like Raji at CB, and Sam Shields at NT - it aint gonna be pretty. What Dom has done the last 2 years has been unwatchable. A lot of legitimate excuses can be made for 2011, and that falls more on TT, but dunderidiot has been given enough talent to excel, if not dominate.

It is true that TT has not brought in personnel that fit a 3-4, or a 2-4 for that matter - but it is up to the DC to make that work - dunderidiot hasn't done that at all... he keeps running his same old scheme, despite the fact that the players don't fit it.

It'll be interesting to see how he plays the 2-4 in run/pass situations this year, now that he really can't go to his beloved, and mindnumbingly idiotic "jumbo nickel". My guess is that if he lines up in the 2-4 on 3rd and 3, with his DT's being Daniels and Jones - we're gonna get run over pretty consistently. We were 27th in rushing yds allowed last year - if DD doesn't adjust to his personnel, we'll be there again.

I've been saying for a few years now... I like a lot of the defensive talent - if I like the talent, and hate how they're being used, and the results are pathetic... well, I don't think it takes Columbo to figure out that the blame rests with the DC.

Either that, or the talent really does suck - in which case the blame rests with TT... it's one or the other.



top 10 talent on defense ...wow.....I might try to argue we are average there. our dl's are ok at best but probably below average. our ilb's are junk....our olb's might be elite between Matthews and peppers. The safeties are improved...I think....but average would be a fair assessment. cb's are above average but not elite.

I would consider our talent on defense to be average and expect a 15-20 range defense if we keep our health.

if you think we have top 10 talent on defense you wlll hate dom again this year

Don't mistake this for supporting dom...I think he is average at best......but I don't think he's nearly as bad as you d

[wist43]

top 10 talent on defense ...wow.....I might try to argue we are average there. our dl's are ok at best but probably below average. our ilb's are junk....our olb's might be elite between Matthews and peppers. The safeties are improved...I think....but average would be a fair assessment. cb's are above average but not elite.

I would consider our talent on defense to be average and expect a 15-20 range defense if we keep our health.

if you think we have top 10 talent on defense you wlll hate dom again this year

Don't mistake this for supporting dom...I think he is average at best......but I don't think he's nearly as bad as you d

Yeah, I think we have top 10 talent on defense... despite the fact that we have putrid ILB's - which the braintrust at 1265 seem to love.

Matthews is elite, and while the other spot has been in flux, I think Neal proved he could play it quite well; now with Peppers, we have 2 guys that can excel at that position - it just depends on how they are used.

On the line, which TT has invested much in, we have 3 first round draft choices, that have shown flashes - flashes that indicate if they were used properly, they could excel. Losing Raji hurts... hurts a lot, but Jones and Daniels have both shown ability, and Perry could be a decent player - again, if he is used properly.

We have excellent corners, and Burnett is a keeper - despite wandering in the wilderness last year. The other Safety spot is an issue for sure.

Add the talent up, and yes... we could have a top 10 defense, if only we had a DC that could put it all together.

Concentration of forces... what good does it do to have a guy like D. Jones standing on the sideline in favor of 1 of 2 slugs (Hawk or Jones)?? Why does dunderdummy abandon the middle of the field to 2 fat guys, and 2 ILB slugs, when he could go to a 3-3 and force the offense to adjust to him??

One thing is for sure... if Capers runs the 2-4 down after down after down after down - we will get run over, and if he responds by going to some version of his "jumbo nickel", we will get aired out. Those 2 negative consequences of what Capers has been doing the last few years have, unfortunately, become the norm for this defense - when we could be so much better.

[Bretsky]

Yeah, I think we have top 10 talent on defense... despite the fact that we have putrid ILB's - which the braintrust at 1265 seem to love.

Matthews is elite, and while the other spot has been in flux, I think Neal proved he could play it quite well; now with Peppers, we have 2 guys that can excel at that position - it just depends on how they are used.

On the line, which TT has invested much in, we have 3 first round draft choices, that have shown flashes - flashes that indicate if they were used properly, they could excel. Losing Raji hurts... hurts a lot, but Jones and Daniels have both shown ability, and Perry could be a decent player - again, if he is used properly.

We have excellent corners, and Burnett is a keeper - despite wandering in the wilderness last year. The other Safety spot is an issue for sure.

Add the talent up, and yes... we could have a top 10 defense, if only we had a DC that could put it all together.

Concentration of forces... what good does it do to have a guy like D. Jones standing on the sideline in favor of 1 of 2 slugs (Hawk or Jones)?? Why does dunderdummy abandon the middle of the field to 2 fat guys, and 2 ILB slugs, when he could go to a 3-3 and force the offense to adjust to him??

One thing is for sure... if Capers runs the 2-4 down after down after down after down - we will get run over, and if he responds by going to some version of his "jumbo nickel", we will get aired out. Those 2 negative consequences of what Capers has been doing the last few years have, unfortunately, become the norm for this defense - when we could be so much better.



Man to me, perry has been miscast in the system from day 1 and showed little to warrant the first round he was picked in. raji, the other 1st is out of the year, and while I liked datone jones on draft day he has a lot to show.

I expect about an 18 rating. if we're above that i'll give dom credit and if below that i'll blame him.

tt needs to hit on more picks on the defensive side

[wist43]

Man to me, perry has been miscast in the system from day 1 and showed little to warrant the first round he was picked in. raji, the other 1st is out of the year, and while I liked datone jones on draft day he has a lot to show.

I expect about an 18 rating. if we're above that i'll give dom credit and if below that i'll blame him.

tt needs to hit on more picks on the defensive side

Well, at least you seem to come down on a side, i.e. it's more TT's fault for not providing sufficient talent.

In general I disagree with that, but I can indict TT on the grounds that the talent doesn't fit what Capers wants to do - but once TT brings in the talent, it is up to Capers to make the most of it.

Our defense was only better than 5 or 6 other teams last year - is the talent that TT is bringing in that bad?? I don't think so.

[Pugger]

The beauty is with our potent offense that is going to give every other team in the league fits - including the mighty seachickens - we don't need a top notch D. Anything better than average will be good enough IMO.

[Joemailman]

When reasonably healthy, I think this is a top 10-15 defense. The defensive line is a big question mark right now, especially when in base. If they play well, this could be a top 10 defense. They were a top 5 defense in 2010 because of their ability to stop drives with interceptions. I don't think they can get back to that level unless someone in the secondary becomes a Woodson -type player.

[3irty1]

I like the priorities on the defense. The team is packed with outside and inside passrushers, and looks to have an embarrassment of riches in the secondary. If this team can pass and stop the pass that'll work. I'm not sure if they'll be any good against the run but that's ok because this isn't 1970.

[wist43]

When reasonably healthy, I think this is a top 10-15 defense. The defensive line is a big question mark right now, especially when in base. If they play well, this could be a top 10 defense. They were a top 5 defense in 2010 because of their ability to stop drives with interceptions. I don't think they can get back to that level unless someone in the secondary becomes a Woodson -type player.

Careful Joe, I agree with what you're saying... do you have a fever?? Perhaps a visit to the doctor??

Although, I don't think we need a ton of turnovers to be good... turnovers help, but I think we have enough player talent to get stops, sacks, and shut down the run. To me, that is defense - turnovers come and go.

[wist43]

I like the priorities on the defense. The team is packed with outside and inside passrushers, and looks to have an embarrassment of riches in the secondary. If this team can pass and stop the pass that'll work. I'm not sure if they'll be any good against the run but that's ok because this isn't 1970.

Pass rush wasn't really that big a problem last year - when dunderdummy dialed up blitzes. We had a goodly number of sacks.

But the secondary was a monstrous mess, and Capers would routinely follow up a blitz and sack, with a 3 man rush that generated no pressure, and there would be receivers running wide open all over the field. 3rd and 14 after a sack, was a very makable conversion for our opponents b/c of how Capers called his defense.

We got absolutely run over in the running game, and our back end was a mess - getting run over in the running game, I put all of that on Capers; the mess in the secondary is not all Capers fault, but at the end of the day - he is the general, and that is where the responsibility lies.

Hopefully MM has read him the riot act, and the influx of Clinton-Dix, and the maturation of the 2nd and 3rd year guys will be enough for us to realize some improvement.

[sharpe1027]

If they can develop a consistent pash rush, I think that the rest will fall into place.

[Joemailman]

Careful Joe, I agree with what you're saying... do you have a fever?? Perhaps a visit to the doctor??

Although, I don't think we need a ton of turnovers to be good... turnovers help, but I think we have enough player talent to get stops, sacks, and shut down the run. To me, that is defense - turnovers come and go.

I doubt they will get back to the interception totals they had in 2009-2011 (30, 24, 31). Woodson and Collins were special players. There is some luck involved in interceptions, but to be in a position to get interceptions, you have to be consistently around the ball. The Packers safeties last year were not. I think they will be this year. So the 11 they had last year may be just as much an anomaly as the 31 in 2011. I'll be happy if they split the difference.

[Patler]

I doubt they will get back to the interception totals they had in 2009-2011 (30, 24, 31). Woodson and Collins were special players. There is some luck involved in interceptions, but to be in a position to get interceptions, you have to be consistently around the ball. The Packers safeties last year were not. I think they will be this year. So the 11 they had last year may be just as much an anomaly as the 31 in 2011. I'll be happy if they split the difference.

The can do better than that, if Cutler plays both games against the Packers.

[pbmax]

Sacks last year did not tell the whole story about pressure. On key downs, passers had far too long to sit and wait. The sack total could stay the same and pressure and hits could increase and the define will go up 5-8 spots in the rankings. It needs to be more constant.

[denverYooper]

Sacks last year did not tell the whole story about pressure. On key downs, passers had far too long to sit and wait. The sack total could stay the same and pressure and hits could increase and the define will go up 5-8 spots in the rankings. It needs to be more constant.

This. Pass rush was boom or bust last year... and often had no boom when they really needed it. The only game last year that I can recall them getting some key pressure in critical situations was against Baltimore, when Perry and Daniels were getting after Flacco a bit. After that game, I thought maybe they were turning the corner on pass rush, but then, you know, injuries.

[hoosier]

Has everyone forgotten that the Packers tend to get out of the gate slow each year? The title of this thread should be "What will go wrong in the first quarter of the season?" Despite all the hoopla about the best OL since the early 2000s I am expecting to see Rodgers under heavy pressure Thursday.

[MadScientist]

Has everyone forgotten that the Packers tend to get out of the gate slow each year? The title of this thread should be "What will go wrong in the first quarter of the season?" Despite all the hoopla about the best OL since the early 2000s I am expecting to see Rodgers under heavy pressure Thursday.

I haven't. Every year under Campen the OL starts the season like complete dog shit. Actually dog shit might be better because at least that might slow the rush down or make them slip a bit. They always seem confused that teams don't just rush 4 with no stunts or schemes. Best hope is for Lacy to make some of those unblocked defenders to miss to take the pressure off Rodgers.

The OL gets better at the end of the season, and that, combined with some dubious stats make some people forget abut the complete cluster fuck at the beginning of the season.

[3irty1]

Has everyone forgotten that the Packers tend to get out of the gate slow each year? The title of this thread should be "What will go wrong in the first quarter of the season?" Despite all the hoopla about the best OL since the early 2000s I am expecting to see Rodgers under heavy pressure Thursday.

There are exceptions. Clay usually has 90% of his sacks by week 8.

[3irty1]

Pass rush wasn't really that big a problem last year - when dunderdummy dialed up blitzes. We had a goodly number of sacks.

But the secondary was a monstrous mess, and Capers would routinely follow up a blitz and sack, with a 3 man rush that generated no pressure, and there would be receivers running wide open all over the field. 3rd and 14 after a sack, was a very makable conversion for our opponents b/c of how Capers called his defense.

We got absolutely run over in the running game, and our back end was a mess - getting run over in the running game, I put all of that on Capers; the mess in the secondary is not all Capers fault, but at the end of the day - he is the general, and that is where the responsibility lies.

Hopefully MM has read him the riot act, and the influx of Clinton-Dix, and the maturation of the 2nd and 3rd year guys will be enough for us to realize some improvement.

Disagree that the passrush was good enough last year. We couldn't get there with 4 and often couldn't get there with blitzes leaving powerplays in the backfield. Even our shitty secondary last year was better than anything the Giants won their last two superbowls with. The difference is that they had an endless stream of fresh stud passrushers to hose down their pedestrian linebackers and secondary with febreze. They could stay effective against the run with run by using those same stud passrushers to 1-gap.

I can see our front 7 using a similar strategy to keep the pressure up with Matthews, Peppers, Neal, Perry, Daniels, and Jones. Our secondary will all of a sudden look like pro bowlers again. There is a lot of ball hawk potential back there.

[wist43]

Sacks last year did not tell the whole story about pressure. On key downs, passers had far too long to sit and wait. The sack total could stay the same and pressure and hits could increase and the define will go up 5-8 spots in the rankings. It needs to be more constant.


Disagree that the passrush was good enough last year. We couldn't get there with 4 and often couldn't get there with blitzes leaving powerplays in the backfield. Even our shitty secondary last year was better than anything the Giants won their last two superbowls with. The difference is that they had an endless stream of fresh stud passrushers to hose down their pedestrian linebackers and secondary with febreze. They could stay effective against the run with run by using those same stud passrushers to 1-gap.

I can see our front 7 using a similar strategy to keep the pressure up with Matthews, Peppers, Neal, Perry, Daniels, and Jones. Our secondary will all of a sudden look like pro bowlers again. There is a lot of ball hawk potential back there.

Rushing 3 is the same as rushing none - and static 4 man rushes, i.e. 2 DL, and 2 OLB's, without prensap movement or stunts are easy enough to block, as the OL knows exactly what is coming, and who is coming. At that point, it is all about physical ability - absent any presnap deception, or attempts to manuever the OL out of position, by missing an adjustment.

You can't blitz every snap, and you can't stunt, zone blitz, etc, on every snap - but what we've been witness to with Capers is hell bent for leather blitzes on 2nd down, backed up by 3 man rushes on 3rd down - combined with heavy doses of static rushes most of the time. It's easy to block, the QB has forever, and the secondary gets picked apart.

It is true that at some point our guy has to defeat their guy - but there are a lot of things the DC can do to assist in that.

Capers is capable of dialing up some beautiful blitzes - but his nature is to is to take his foot off the pedal, and sit back in hopes of a pick or incompletion.

As for the "front seven"... we don't have a front seven, we have a front six... and therein lies a lot of the problem with being able to generate consistent pressure when the opposition is passing on run downs - the "jumbo nickel" was a complete disaster in terms of generating any pressure at all, b/c the 2 fat guys in the middle were there to stop the run - the opposing OC, QB, and OL all knew it would essentially be a 2 man rush, i.e. the 2 OLB's flying upfield while the fat guys in the middle just played the dancing bear game.

What you end up with is the worst of all worlds - an insufficient number of players in the box to deal with the run; fat guys that can't rush the passer on run/pass downs, and predictable rushes out of static fronts.

[MadScientist]

Capers is capable of dialing up some beautiful blitzes - but his nature is to is to take his foot off the pedal, and sit back in hopes of a pick or incompletion.

As for the "front seven"... we don't have a front seven, we have a front six... and therein lies a lot of the problem with being able to generate consistent pressure when the opposition is passing on run downs - the "jumbo nickel" was a complete disaster in terms of generating any pressure at all, b/c the 2 fat guys in the middle were there to stop the run - the opposing OC, QB, and OL all knew it would essentially be a 2 man rush, i.e. the 2 OLB's flying upfield while the fat guys in the middle just played the dancing bear game.

What you end up with is the worst of all worlds - an insufficient number of players in the box to deal with the run; fat guys that can't rush the passer on run/pass downs, and predictable rushes out of static fronts.
Even with all that, it still would have a decent shot at working if both OLB's have the ability to beat a single blocker consistently. Otherwise all LB's need to be able to cover so you can just randomly choose which two to send.

Of course combining an ineffective pass rush with at least one safety out of place makes for a defense that will at best lose in the first round, if the team makes it to the playoffs.

This year both the rush and the safety play should be better, regardless of which formation is used.

[3irty1]

The 3 man rush is frustrating as hell when it fails but it definitely has a place. On those instances where the QB has a planned 5 step drop and quick hitter, the 3 man rush is what you want as no amount of pass rush will get there anyways, might as well put a dude in a passing lane. Definitely part of the chess match of play calling, switching between blitzes and 3 man rushes is the kind of guessing you have to do more often when you can't get good pressure with 4 men and zero tricks.

That's not a fair assessment of the "Jumbo Nickel." When Charles Woodson is your nickelback you've got 7 in the box, when Raji pulled his weight he also provided a good push up the middle despite being a big body. That was a scheme that fit the players perfectly and was very successful. It didn't make sense to keep doing it once the personnel changed but any scheme is flawed with the wrong guys.

I don't see a way to have a decent defense without being able to have a front 4 that can get to the QB without simply winning their one-on-ones. Most of the nickel packages out there are exactly that coming from the 4-2. BTW, looks like we can expect to see some 4-2 in obvious passing situations. We've been showing it all preseason.

[pbmax]

3 man rush is not a problem when its 3rd and forever as long as you can play effective zone behind it. Capers has done it and the problem has been the coverage behind it. Arizona tore it apart by running shallow crossing routes and just running for the first down.

However, this defense is designed to send 5 and force a quick throw and tackle. The former set of DBs and the terrible team tackling have made that approach a shambles prior to last year. Hyde, Richardson, Banjo, Hayward and (astonishingly) an improved Shields make it more likely this year. It worked several times last year.

[wist43]

The 3 man rush is frustrating as hell when it fails but it definitely has a place. On those instances where the QB has a planned 5 step drop and quick hitter, the 3 man rush is what you want as no amount of pass rush will get there anyways, might as well put a dude in a passing lane. Definitely part of the chess match of play calling, switching between blitzes and 3 man rushes is the kind of guessing you have to do more often when you can't get good pressure with 4 men and zero tricks.

3 man rush doesn't have a place anytime, anywhere, for any supposed reason.

Besides, it's illegal in most states - that's how fucking stupid it is.

In fact, this is a little known biblical fact - when Moses descended from Mount Sinai, he had 3 tablets, not 2... and the 11th commandment was: "Thou shalt never, ever, rush 3. Unfortunately, Moses dropped and broke the 3rd tablet, and those gems of wisdom have been lost forever.

In all of American cinema, only the great biblical scholar, Mel Brooks, has depicted this truth in film!!!


That's not a fair assessment of the "Jumbo Nickel." When Charles Woodson is your nickelback you've got 7 in the box, when Raji pulled his weight he also provided a good push up the middle despite being a big body. That was a scheme that fit the players perfectly and was very successful. It didn't make sense to keep doing it once the personnel changed but any scheme is flawed with the wrong guys.

My assessment of the jumbo nickel was in light of using it with the wrong guys - that's the point; our personnel don't fit what dunderdummy is trying to do at all, yet he plows ahead doing the same shit - with disasterous results.

If you were to run the jumbo nickel - and you suspect that it is at least 50/50 possibility of run, then I'd run blitz out of that alignment more often than not; if it's a pass?? just keep on keepin on after the QB.

That said, I wouldn't run the jumbo nickel at all anyway... I'd be in base.

[pbmax]

Actually true about Moses. I have the game film. However, actual 3rd tablet was lost like an iPad playbook dropped on the sidewalk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48hr8HhDv0

[3irty1]

3 man rush doesn't have a place anytime, anywhere, for any supposed reason.

Besides, it's illegal in most states - that's how fucking stupid it is.

In fact, this is a little known biblical fact - when Moses descended from Mount Sinai, he had 3 tablets, not 2... and the 11th commandment was: "Thou shalt never, ever, rush 3. Unfortunately, Moses dropped and broke the 3rd tablet, and those gems of wisdom have been lost forever.

In all of American cinema, only the great biblical scholar, Mel Brooks, has depicted this truth in film!!!



My assessment of the jumbo nickel was in light of using it with the wrong guys - that's the point; our personnel don't fit what dunderdummy is trying to do at all, yet he plows ahead doing the same shit - with disasterous results.

If you were to run the jumbo nickel - and you suspect that it is at least 50/50 possibility of run, then I'd run blitz out of that alignment more often than not; if it's a pass?? just keep on keepin on after the QB.

That said, I wouldn't run the jumbo nickel at all anyway... I'd be in base.

The existence of a 3 man rush doesn't bother me. I've seen it work. You could say its overused or something with evidence to back that claim but its stupid to talk about a sound strategy in absolutes.

We share the same complaint on the jumbo nickel then. It should have been limited to the gimmick section of the playbook once Woodson left. They did a remarkable job at replacing Woodson with Hayward and then Hyde but the fact that the plan was to just find a new player to replace a hall of fame veteran in the scheme built around him is foolish. Raji's decline rotted the foundation of that scheme even worse. Whatever the new schemes and wrinkles are this year I hope they aren't dependent on any one guy. Thats a high variance way of coaching. Good for making DPOY out of Jason Taylor and Charles Woodson but miserable when you're defensive game plan is tied to a couple of fragile hamstrings.

[pbmax]

If you were to run the jumbo nickel - and you suspect that it is at least 50/50 possibility of run, then I'd run blitz out of that alignment more often than not; if it's a pass?? just keep on keepin on after the QB.

... That said, I wouldn't run the jumbo nickel at all anyway... I'd be in base.

If you blitz on 2nd or 3rd and short, you are going to hemorrhage big plays, especially given the play of the players in the middle of the D, from safeties to ILBs.

A quick throw in shorter yardage situations doesn't give the D an advantage. Maybe with new safeties, you could trust this D to hold it, we'll see.

I'll say this just to get it on record but I half-expect to be disproven early. Brad Jones looked like he had solved the diagnosis delay he had his first two years at ILB. Now, he could just be going forward on run willy nilly, without much regard for gap or ball, but he looked faster to the play.

If it holds and he isn't exposed as simply guessing, it would make the middle of the D light years better.

BTW, if you are in base facing 3x1 (WRxTE), you are going to have a LB covering a WR. Which is what nickel was invented to prevent. You need to choose which is the greater threat and for 30 years D coordinators have said its the WR.

[Bossman641]

Reason for success - Rodgers and Lacy only played something like 25 quarters together during the regular season last year, well before Lacy hit his stride.

I'm concerned about the run D. We all know neither Hawk or Jones are great at taking on blocks. If Guion/Pennel don't hold up at NT I could easily see teams running the ball down our throats.

That said, the formula for success is pretty obvious. MM knows he has a lethal offense, hence all the no huddle. If we are able to get a lead and force teams to go to the air, we have enough pass rush and secondary to stop teams IMO.

[3irty1]

I know from watching other teams that bigger doesn't necessarily mean better against the run but its still hard to visualize a Packers team that lost Pickett, CJ Wilson, Jolly, and Raji not being a sieve.

[wist43]

If you blitz on 2nd or 3rd and short, you are going to hemorrhage big plays, especially given the play of the players in the middle of the D, from safeties to ILBs.

A quick throw in shorter yardage situations doesn't give the D an advantage. Maybe with new safeties, you could trust this D to hold it, we'll see.

I'll say this just to get it on record but I half-expect to be disproven early. Brad Jones looked like he had solved the diagnosis delay he had his first two years at ILB. Now, he could just be going forward on run willy nilly, without much regard for gap or ball, but he looked faster to the play.

If it holds and he isn't exposed as simply guessing, it would make the middle of the D light years better.

BTW, if you are in base facing 3x1 (WRxTE), you are going to have a LB covering a WR. Which is what nickel was invented to prevent. You need to choose which is the greater threat and for 30 years D coordinators have said its the WR.

If you can't cover 3 WR's with 4 DB's - then you should be selling insurance instead of coordinating an NFL defense.

Add to those 4 DB's - a supposedly adept cover LB like Jones... and if it's a pass, both Jones and Hawk are going to drop - Jones, Hawk, and probably 1 of the OLB's.

You can't cover 3 WR's and 1 TE with 6 guys in coverage??

By dunderdummy's reckoning, and the brainwashed Packer masses - it would seem an absolute impossibility.

If it is an impossiblity to cover anyone out of base - then we should never run base - which we don't run much anyway... so why not just scrap it altogether?? Stopping the run isn't even a consideration for Dom, so why have any DL over 280 lbs at all??

[3irty1]

Hyperboles aside, I don't think 3 WR on the field should automatically mean nickel or dime defense. The down and distance is just as important IMO.

[MadScientist]

If you can't cover 3 WR's with 4 DB's - then you should be selling insurance instead of coordinating an NFL defense.


Hyperboles aside, I don't think 3 WR on the field should automatically mean nickel or dime defense. The down and distance is just as important IMO.

Sure, on 3rd and short you gear up to stop the run in that formation, but otherwise it is an advantage to the offense to have 3 WR and 1 TE vs 4 DB. The way a defense can make it work is if you have 1) a safety that can really cover a WR (Woodson, hopefully Hyde), 2) another safety that can really play center field (Collins yes, Burnett ?), and LB's who can handle the TE in one way or another. If you have the personnel to do it, great, otherwise nickel is your best bet.

Flip it around. If you were a DC going up against the Packers and they came out 3 WR, 1 TE and Lacy, what would you do? Would you seriously go with 4 DB?

[pbmax]

If you can't cover 3 WR's with 4 DB's - then you should be selling insurance instead of coordinating an NFL defense.

Add to those 4 DB's - a supposedly adept cover LB like Jones... and if it's a pass, both Jones and Hawk are going to drop - Jones, Hawk, and probably 1 of the OLB's.

You can't cover 3 WR's and 1 TE with 6 guys in coverage??

By dunderdummy's reckoning, and the brainwashed Packer masses - it would seem an absolute impossibility.

If it is an impossiblity to cover anyone out of base - then we should never run base - which we don't run much anyway... so why not just scrap it altogether?? Stopping the run isn't even a consideration for Dom, so why have any DL over 280 lbs at all??


Hyperboles aside, I don't think 3 WR on the field should automatically mean nickel or dime defense. The down and distance is just as important IMO.

Of course there are situations (certain down and distance or even more likely field position-goal to go) that don't call automatically for nickel.

But using nickel to combat 3x1 in typical situations was a lesson finally learned in the NFL by the last hold out Broncos when the 49ers tore their simple 4-3 Cover 2 to shreds in the Super Bowl which yielded a 55 to Doesn't Matter final score. John Taylor said at the time, this offense (both the original Walsh and the Holmgren 3x1 variation) was designed to pull apart the kinds of coverages you get from a base D, especially a Cover 2.

You have 7 in coverage assuming no blitz and almost always one (if not two) is deep safety. That's 6 to cover 4; you can double 2 which leaves 2 in single coverage. And those single coverages can be manipulated to put a LB on a WR or TE at will. See the Packers opening game against the 49ers when Perry was in coverage on Michael Crabtree.

You can play base or you can blitz in your nickel, but if its a medium to short yardage situation, you are playing with fire since the offense is happy with a quick throw.

[wist43]

Hyperboles aside, I don't think 3 WR on the field should automatically mean nickel or dime defense. The down and distance is just as important IMO.

That's been my point all along.

[Fritz]

This season, to me, depends upon two areas: injuries and the play of the defense. IF this team can stay healtrhy, and IF this new fangled defense actually improves, this team can do very well.

[denverYooper]

2 reasons the defense will be better: Peppers and competent safety play.

[Fritz]

I am hopeful in both of those areas, DYoop.

[CaliforniaCheez]

2 reasons the defense will be better: Peppers and competent safety play.

Well those reasons are gone. Got any others?

Dix is a rookie and it shows. Worse yet he cannot tackle. Seattle exposed Dix, Peppers, Matthews, Jones, and Hawk as liabilities.

[Pugger]

Well those reasons are gone. Got any others?

Dix is a rookie and it shows. Worse yet he cannot tackle. Seattle exposed Dix, Peppers, Matthews, Jones, and Hawk as liabilities.

They also showed our offense is pretty damn anemic too. It's gonna be fun season looking up from the bottom of the NFCN standings the rest of this year.

[hoosier]

You guys (and gals) turn quickly in the wind, don't you? Last place in NFCN, fire MM, fire Capers, fire TT. What we learned from last night is that this team isn't going to go 16-0 and that the injury parade is a constant in GB. Fortunately we also know that injury parades and SB crowns are not necessarily incompatible, and that teams can get blown out in week 1 and still turn their seasons around.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

You guys (and gals) turn quickly in the wind, don't you? Last place in NFCN, fire MM, fire Capers, fire TT. What we learned from last night is that this team isn't going to go 16-0 and that the injury parade is a constant in GB. Fortunately we also know that injury parades and SB crowns are not necessarily incompatible, and that teams can get blown out in week 1 and still turn their seasons around.

I hope so, cause lets face it, last night they were awful, just awful. The thing I cant get my head around is the packers have had poor tackling for many moons. Why would I believe they will turn it around after all the games, and all the new players, and the preseason, etc? Seattle just looked so goddamn much better in the fundamentals, it was really quite embarassing.

[denverYooper]

Brad Biggs ‏@BradBiggs 18m
Trepidation about how #Bears defense will perform? No question they've been keeping some stuff under wraps.

Rob Demovsky ‏@RobDemovsky 6m
So was GB. RT @BradBiggs: Trepidation about how #Bears D will perform? they've been keeping some stuff under wraps.

Brad Biggs ‏@BradBiggs 3m
@RobDemovsky So it sounds like you are saying there is a chance?

[Harlan Huckleby]

You guys (and gals) turn quickly in the wind, don't you? Last place in NFCN, fire MM, fire Capers, fire TT. What we learned from last night is that this team isn't going to go 16-0 and that the injury parade is a constant in GB. Fortunately we also know that injury parades and SB crowns are not necessarily incompatible, and that teams can get blown out in week 1 and still turn their seasons around.

I don't think they have a defensive line to compete for championship, and the offensive line depth is not there. I would say they still can be a good, 10-6 team.

[George Cumby]

Hey! Waitaminit! This isn't Kool- Aid! What the fuck? This tastes like shit! Shit! It IS shit! What the fuck? Where's my mouthwash? Fuck! Where's my toothbrush? Goddamn!

[wist43]

For all of my pessimism, I had sincerely hoped that they would have learned some lessons from the past couple of years... and with MM supposedly sitting in on defensive meetings - they had to correct some things?? Right??

Well, the answer to that is an obvious no - they've learned nothing, and are determined to keep trying the same things that didn't work the last few years. It's mind-boggling.

Capers came out and emptied his little bag of tricks during the 1st quarter - he showed some 3-4 base, and showed at least some committment to stuffing the run and controlling the LOS. Then the 2nd quarter rolled around, and it was right back to that idiotic 2-4... the Seahawks were off and running after that.

Capers is like the scorpion that stings the frog - to his own demise. He simply cannot help himself - he sees the NFL as a passing league, and only a passing league, and figures the opponent is eventually going to abandon the run and pass, pass, pass. Even when going up against a run heavy team like the Seahawks, Capers cannot believe that they are not going to air it out 50 times.

If he gets gashed for one 12 yd run... well, surely the opponent will pass on the next down, right?? or the next down, right?? Well, 6 yds, 8 yds, 12 yds, 6 yds... eventually, the only thing that is going to stop an opponent from continuing to run it down our throats is the goal line - as the rules say that once a team crosses the goal line, they have to stop beating up their pitiful opponent.

207 rushing yds allowed - that about sums up Dom Capers committment to stopping the run. It's sickening to watch.

[hoosier]

I don't think they have a defensive line to compete for championship, and the offensive line depth is not there. I would say they still can be a good, 10-6 team.

You may be right, but how can you tell from one game? The '97 Packers were hemorrhaging yards on defense for the first half season and then someone figured out how to stop the run when December and January rolled around. Last night may have exposed a couple of fatal weaknesses left open by injuries to Raji and Bulaga. But it is also conceivable that Sherrod finds his legs (so to speak) after a couple of games, and that MM does what he should have done last night and activates Pennel, who turns out to be a revelation. In the NFL each year is different (except when it comes to the Packers and the injury epidemic), and the worm has a way of turning really quickly. A few years ago everyone had left the Giants smoldering by the side of road and suddenly they woke up and ran the table. If I had to bet, yeah, I would bet that the 2014 Packers will be done in by weaknesses on both lines (and injuries, don't forget the injuries), but as a fan I'm not ready to write them off yet.

[Joemailman]

I don't think they have a defensive line to compete for championship, and the offensive line depth is not there. I would say they still can be a good, 10-6 team.

You may be right about the defensive line. On the offensive side though, they've lost 3 of their top 6 guys. That would wipe out the depth of any team. If they can hang in until they get Bulaga, and eventually Tretter back, I think the offensive line situation is pretty decent.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You may be right about the defensive line. On the offensive side though, they've lost 3 of their top 6 guys. That would wipe out the depth of any team. If they can hang in until they get Bulaga, and eventually Tretter back, I think the offensive line situation is pretty decent.

They don't need Tretter except for depth, Linsley looks good. I'm assuming that Bulaga or some other starter will be out throughout the season, that seems par for the course.
Somebody suggested replacing Sherrod with the tackle on practice squad, the guy with suspiciously foreign sounding name to go along with Bakhtiari. Sounds good to me.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You may be right, but how can you tell from one game? The '97 Packers were hemorrhaging yards on defense for the first half season and then someone figured out how to stop the run when December and January rolled around. Last night may have exposed a couple of fatal weaknesses left open by injuries to Raji and Bulaga. But it is also conceivable that Sherrod finds his legs (so to speak) after a couple of games

What you say is reasonable except for the LOL about Sherrod being salvagable.