Studs/ Duds Week 1

[Bossman641]

Studs

Starks - showed decisiveness in hitting the hole. Was rarely taken down by the first defender.

Duds

Brad Jones - dude really knows how to ruin a good time. A real Debby Downer

Hawk - Nothing specific but looks slow as normal. Needs to be more decisive. If it's 3rd and 2, take the chance to drop a guy for a 1 yard gain rather than play it safe and give up a 3 yard gain.

Sherrod - 70 or 80% might be a good FT shooting % but not when it comes to pass blocking

Rodgers - just seemed off. I put the pick half on him and half on Jordy. Certainly could have made a better throw. A few instances where I thought he could have scrambled and instead threw the ball...missed the throws to top it off.

Guion - I miss Raji

Masthay - take the skirt off and put some leg into it already

Others

HHCD - made a few good plays but missed a few opportunities

Shields - generally played the pass well and also had a few good run fills but leaving the WR on the Wilson TD pass was unacceptable

Peppers - had a few nice pass rushes. Unsure of his run D, will need to take a closer look.

[Striker]

Studs
Clay/Peppers tandem - At least they look good when rushing the passer

Duds
McCarthy - For as much bluster as he had about the team being ready/feeling good, this team sure came out and laid an egg today. Though the offense has come out flat under McCarthy for several seasons, it was surprising how quickly things unraveled.

Capers - So, still can't figure out those mobile QBs and multi-use players, eh?

Slocum - Really?

Whoever decided Pennel was inactive today - Because we needed less DL today?

Rodgers - Played scared. Played erratic. Got absolutely outplayed by Wilson.

Injuries - Hopefully, Bulaga can come back. And Lacy's concussion isn't too bad. Etc.

Sherrod - Such a promising start. And then a complete collapse.

Brad Jones - Dumb dumb dumb.

Mike Daniels - Not as dumb as Jones, but that penalty was a killer.

DuJuan Harris - Lasted about as long as Ross did as returner.

Masthay - Not the best punts.

Clinton-Dix - Welcome to the league, rook.

[denverYooper]

I dunno about Clay tonight... he had some good plays but ran himself out of several also.

[denverYooper]

I thought Rodgers had a so-so game. Not great, but not as bad as a lot of people seem to think. He/M3 played conservative early on but I thought he was throwing a good ball. A few misses on some catches, a tipped int from Jordy, and things look a lot worse.

Wilson could easily have had 3 ints (Jones, HaHa, 1 other tipped ball) that GB couldn't hang on to.

[Striker]

I liked the Clay/Peppers tandem when rushing. The rest falls under the failings of the defense tonight.

Rodgers' throws were good and bad. He was batting 50/50 with those "wow" throws and those "wtf" throws. I think he was playing a bit scared when running due to his injury last year. I still contend that he could have had a TD and a first down on the two third downs in the 2nd quarter.

[BZnDallas]

STUD: Slocum's agent
DUD: Slocum 1, Dom 2, and as expected early in the season MM 3

[Willard]

Stud: Linsley. Didn't really hear his name at all. A good thing. He snapped the ball once when AR was trying to call a TO, but all in all it wasn't the train wreck some eXpected.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Stud: Linsley. Didn't really hear his name at all. A good thing.

I watched his run blocking and he looked really good. I doubt there is much drop-off from Tretter, won't be surprised if they stick with him as starter for whole season.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Duds -Matthews and Peppers. Undisciplined and stupid. When the RB is running around the end, someone should set the edge and turn the runner back into the pursuit. Basic fundamentals are not there. Matthews ran himself out of the play all night. They kept all those linebackers on the roster and they just can't play. Jones and Hawk just don't have the talent.

- Aaron Rodgers Scared, intimidated, not at all confident. Must have left his balls in Green Bay.

-Defensive Training Camp It appeared as if the basic fundamental like tackling are not taught or worked on at all.

-Boykin Not ready for prime time. Nelson Looked very average and not like a guy worth a big contract.

-McCarthy Did not have the team ready to play. Really embarrassed himself. 2 of the next 3 weeks are at the Lions and at the Bears.
He had better start teaching some blocking and tackling.

Ha'Sean Clinton Dix Looks like he hasn't made a tackle since he was in Alabama. He better get ready because every defense is going to go after him the way the Seahawks did until he can stop it. A very weak link in the secondary and defense. Megatron is going to make him look silly.

Studs None

It was a royal butt kicking. The Packers are 0-1 in the Conference tie breaker. Since the Lions and Bears are favorites, the Packers are now likely last in the division. It will be October at the earliest that they can have a contending record.

C'mon Pack, try to get to .500, please.

[pbmax]

How much rest did Pappers get?

I was unable to watch the game from beginning to end without interruption but in the second half I saw a lot of Perry.

Was Peppers getting a breather or was he at DE?

[Pugger]

Duds -Matthews and Peppers. Undisciplined and stupid. When the RB is running around the end, someone should set the edge and turn the runner back into the pursuit. Basic fundamentals are not there. Matthews ran himself out of the play all night. They kept all those linebackers on the roster and they just can't play. Jones and Hawk just don't have the talent.

- Aaron Rodgers Scared, intimidated, not at all confident. Must have left his balls in Green Bay.

-Defensive Training Camp It appeared as if the basic fundamental like tackling are not taught or worked on at all.

-Boykin Not ready for prime time. Nelson Looked very average and not like a guy worth a big contract.

-McCarthy Did not have the team ready to play. Really embarrassed himself. 2 of the next 3 weeks are at the Lions and at the Bears.
He had better start teaching some blocking and tackling.

Ha'Sean Clinton Dix Looks like he hasn't made a tackle since he was in Alabama. He better get ready because every defense is going to go after him the way the Seahawks did until he can stop it. A very weak link in the secondary and defense. Megatron is going to make him look silly.

Studs None

It was a royal butt kicking. The Packers are 0-1 in the Conference tie breaker. Since the Lions and Bears are favorites, the Packers are now likely last in the division. It will be October at the earliest that they can have a contending record.

C'mon Pack, try to get to .500, please.

With any luck maybe we can contend for the #1 pick next spring.

[Brandon494]

Studs: Seattle
Duds: Packers

[PA Pack Fan]

Studs: Seattle
Duds: Packers

This.

[Infamous]

why the heck did they not challenge Sherman not even ONCE to keep 'hawks D honest?? FATBOY MCCarthy

and yes, #12 looked nervous!!

[Iron Mike]

STUD: Wist43

DUD: You gotta come up w/something better than that, Mr. Soon-to-be-ex-defensive-coordinator Capers.

[3irty1]

Capers? The problem on defense this time was a talent problem IMO. Its on TT. Missed tackles and penalties smeared shit all over what could have been a passable defensive performance.

[Bretsky]

Capers? The problem on defense this time was a talent problem IMO. Its on TT. Missed tackles and penalties smeared shit all over what could have been a passable defensive performance.



THIS

[pbmax]

THIS

I am not looking to agree with wist, especially now that I get to rewatch this game looking for 4-3 alignments and trying to figure out what personnel were running it.

But penalties are not on Ted. That's the coaching staff. Its especially on the coaching staff if you put Brad Jones at SAM/SOLB and have him in charge of chucking the TE (2 penalties).

[wist43]

No studs.

3 Duds - TT, MM, and Dunderdummy.

This loss was all about coaching - or lack thereof.

[George Cumby]

The only thing I put on Ted is not putting pressure on fat mike to fire Capers and to try out new blood. This is a talented roster that is under performing.

[3irty1]

The Capers hate is just fan inertia from all the other times he's fucked up. Pb's got a good point about the penalties and I await his conclusion but Capers isn't the one missing tackles. Missed tackles have become pretty normal in Green Bay but last night had to set some kind of record. Multiple guys had multiple misses. I think at this point its enough of a pattern to blame TT. Capers also didn't choose Guion for his only NT. Capers had nothing to do with the futility on offense.

The guys responsible this time are the ones who always get the credit when things go well. TT, MM, and Rodgers.

[wist43]

The only thing I put on Ted is not putting pressure on fat mike to fire Capers and to try out new blood. This is a talented roster that is under performing.

TT is also to blame for the players he's assembled. He did nothing about the ILB situation, and he got rid of our run stuffing DL.

Pickett and Jolly each had their warts - Pickett age, and Jolly age and injury, but if he's not going to bring those guys back, he should have brought in some legit 3-4, run stuffing DL to replace them. Instead, he went finesse - following Capers' advice I'm sure - and the results were entirely predictable.

I certainly knew it was coming... we gave up 207 yds rushing last night, a 5.6 yd avg - picking up right where we left off from last year.

The Packers brain trust learned exactly nothing from last year - they just changed out a couple of players and said, 'problem solved' - b/c, afterall, they don't view the scheme or the coaching as the problem, they view the players as being the problem.

[wist43]

The Capers hate is just fan inertia from all the other times he's fucked up. Pb's got a good point about the penalties and I await his conclusion but Capers isn't the one missing tackles. Missed tackles have become pretty normal in Green Bay but last night had to set some kind of record. Multiple guys had multiple misses. I think at this point its enough of a pattern to blame TT. Capers also didn't choose Guion for his only NT. Capers had nothing to do with the futility on offense.

The guys responsible this time are the ones who always get the credit when things go well. TT, MM, and Rodgers.

That's a bunch of BS 3irty1...

TT is ultimately to blame, then MM, then dunderdummy.

Capers IS the one missing tackles, b/c the players are not prepared - and more often than not, are in a poor position to make the tackle. And when they were in position to make the tackle and simply bounced off the ball carrier - that too is on Capers b/c the players are not being coached up to the fundamentals.

Sun Tzu - the responsibility always rests with the General.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Poor old Dom Capers, no matter how much he schemes it doesn't matter if he doesn't run some tackling drills and coach fundamentals.

Vince Lombardi once said "This isn't rocket science, the team that blocks and tackles better is going to win."

The defense just hasn't been good since Cullen Jenkins was not signed.

[3irty1]

That's a bunch of BS 3irty1...

TT is ultimately to blame, then MM, then dunderdummy.

Capers IS the one missing tackles, b/c the players are not prepared - and more often than not, are in a poor position to make the tackle. And when they were in position to make the tackle and simply bounced off the ball carrier - that too is on Capers b/c the players are not being coached up to the fundamentals.

Sun Tzu - the responsibility always rests with the General.

At some point after playing football your whole life and making it your profession the fundamentals are your responsibility. But even if you disagree, Winston Moss is Brad Jones's position coach and not a hire by Capers. You think someone else could teach him to tackle?

Even if Capers does deserve blame, that's nothing new. Lets talk about how shitty MM and Rodgers were on offense.

[Zool]

But even if you disagree, Winston Moss is Brad Jones's position coach and not a hire by Capers. You think someone else could teach him to tackle?

I've got a variety of sayings for Mr Jones. I'm going to go with "You can lead a moron to a ball carrier but you can't make him tackle." That guy sucks like a 18 year old smoker with daddy issues. Shoot him and bill TT, MM, and Capers for the bullet. Bishop would look about the same on 1 leg right now. Not that Bishop was stellar, but compared to Jones he's the GOAT. Calling Jones JAG is an insult to JAGs everywhere. If they play like that for any stretch this season, 9-7 is the best we can hope for.

[3irty1]

I've got a variety of sayings for Mr Jones. I'm going to go with "You can lead a moron to a ball carrier but you can't make him tackle." That guy sucks like a 18 year old smoker with daddy issues. Shoot him and bill TT, MM, and Capers for the bullet. Bishop would look about the same on 1 leg right now. Not that Bishop was stellar, but compared to Jones he's the GOAT. Calling Jones JAG is an insult to JAGs everywhere. If they play like that for any stretch this season, 9-7 is the best we can hope for.

I actually think with the way this team is built its going to be blowout or blown out. If we can pass we can stop the pass, but our offense has to be our run defense. We're on pace to set the league record for worst rushing defense ever and we still have to face AP twice this year.

[wist43]

At some point after playing football your whole life and making it your profession the fundamentals are your responsibility. But even if you disagree, Winston Moss is Brad Jones's position coach and not a hire by Capers. You think someone else could teach him to tackle?

Even if Capers does deserve blame, that's nothing new. Lets talk about how shitty MM and Rodgers were on offense.

Football starts on the LOS - build up both of your lines, and that is the foundation. Secondly - defense, defense, defense.

I won't even bother to look at what the offense is doing - except on the OL - until the defense is fixed. If you can't play defense, you can't win consistently.

Beyond that, our offense has an excellent track record of getting things fixed and righting the ship. Even I, the pessimist of all pessimists, has faith in MM to get things fixed on offense... it might take a few games, but I have faith that MM will get it fixed.

Defense on the other hand?? Our defense, and our defensive coaching staff, have a track record of fixing nothing; they have a track record of doing the same shit over and over again... and a track record of producing abysmal results.

Our season depends on if the defense can get things fixed - the answer to that is obvious - of course they won't get things fixed. They've had 6 months to rework the defense, and all Capers did was swap out a couple of players and said, viola!!!

Result of blaming the players and not changing the scheme?? 207 yds rushing allowed, and another embarrassing blowout loss.

Football starts with playing good defense - the Packers defense is a joke, b/c our DC is a joke.

[call_me_ishmael]

I actually think with the way this team is built its going to be blowout or blown out. If we can pass we can stop the pass, but our offense has to be our run defense. We're on pace to set the league record for worst rushing defense ever and we still have to face AP twice this year.

LOL, a trendline after one game? C'mon man, you're an engineer. Act like it. While I agree the run defense is likely to be bad - your assessment is not fair.

[Tony Oday]

AR played terrible last night, looked SCARED out there, threw away an easy first down, missed passes that should have been hit, just a bad bad game for the "fearless" Leader.

Lacy looked ok he is a guy that should get stronger the longer the game goes on but he was Deboed last night with a head shot.

Jordy gave up a sweet pick

Cobb was under utilized...hey MM did you see what Harvin did? Yeah take notes from Bevel

O line was just not good.

Did the D line play?

I liked Peppers and CMIII attacking the passer...would be real nice if we get ahead they can just pin their heads back

Hawk was bad

Jones made Hawk look like Ray Lewis, he should be Rubly'd

DBs were not terrible actually, got burned by a Hawk pick, a sweetly designed play and play action...shocker

Safteys...HA HA HA HA...thats what Lynch was yapping...could tackle...at all.

MM get your head out of the Perkins Menu and realize that the short passing East West Flare routes didnt work and were not working. Attack down field. You have to throw against Sherman regardless if it works just to make sure the safties have to respect that side of the field!

Mastay WHAT THE MONKEY F*CK!!!! Did you lose your leg? Did someone punch you in the thigh so you cant punt anymore?

Crosby...I am not mad at you for some reason and it feels wrong.

[esoxx]

AR played terrible last night, looked SCARED out there, threw away an easy first down, missed passes that should have been hit, just a bad bad game for the "fearless" Leader.



One other thing I didn't like about AR last night is when he got up in Linsley's grill b/c he didn't snap it and a time out had to be called. AR, I don't know if you remember your rookie year but not easy. Throw in against the 12th man crowd and first NFL start, I think Linsely acquitted himself rather well. Getting in his face with fists balled up and gestruring, not helpful. In fact, it shows you don't have your cool about you and as the leader you set the tone. No one likes to get called out like that. Get it together man.

[call_me_ishmael]

The thing that gets me is many of Seattle's stud players are from the scrap heap.

Why are we not doing something similar and trying to find elite athletes where the sizing might not be perfect? Their LBs are just so much faster than ours. Their DL is just much, much quicker and better.

I would like to see the Packers play press coverage and blitz 5-6 on just about every play. I would like speedy linebackers that can cover. They'll be fine if they do this.

[Freak Out]

AR played terrible last night, looked SCARED out there, threw away an easy first down, missed passes that should have been hit, just a bad bad game for the "fearless" Leader.

Lacy looked ok he is a guy that should get stronger the longer the game goes on but he was Deboed last night with a head shot.

Jordy gave up a sweet pick

Cobb was under utilized...hey MM did you see what Harvin did? Yeah take notes from Bevel

O line was just not good.

Did the D line play?

I liked Peppers and CMIII attacking the passer...would be real nice if we get ahead they can just pin their heads back

Hawk was bad

Jones made Hawk look like Ray Lewis, he should be Rubly'd

DBs were not terrible actually, got burned by a Hawk pick, a sweetly designed play and play action...shocker

Safteys...HA HA HA HA...thats what Lynch was yapping...could tackle...at all.

MM get your head out of the Perkins Menu and realize that the short passing East West Flare routes didnt work and were not working. Attack down field. You have to throw against Sherman regardless if it works just to make sure the safties have to respect that side of the field!

Mastay WHAT THE MONKEY F*CK!!!! Did you lose your leg? Did someone punch you in the thigh so you cant punt anymore?

Crosby...I am not mad at you for some reason and it feels wrong.

Nice post.

[3irty1]

LOL, a trendline after one game? C'mon man, you're an engineer. Act like it. While I agree the run defense is likely to be bad - your assessment is not fair.

I don't think they'll actually be historically bad, but I'm suggesting the only thing that will prevent it is that we'll be playing from ahead and not encountering rushing offense as much. When our offense doesn't do their part things are going to get ugly on defense.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't think they'll actually be historically bad, but I'm suggesting the only thing that will prevent it is that we'll be playing from ahead and not encountering rushing offense as much. When our offense doesn't do their part things are going to get ugly on defense.

Absolutely. Though weren't you just saying last seek they had top 10 talent or something like that? That D is going to be bad. I think they'll get better as the year goes on but I think they have massive liabilities on the DL, ILB and potentially S.

After week one, I feel better about S, but feel worse about the DL. It's very possible they have the worst DL in the NFL. Mike Daniels could be a good player but he is not a starter. He is a very good situational inside pass rusher. I have no opinion on Guion, but I cannot see any situation where Daniels is successful or being used optimally as a starting end.

[3irty1]

Absolutely. Though weren't you just saying last seek they had top 10 talent or something like that? That D is going to be bad. I think they'll get better as the year goes on but I think they have massive liabilities on the DL, ILB and potentially S.

After week one, I feel better about S, but feel worse about the DL. It's very possible they have the worst DL in the NFL. Mike Daniels could be a good player but he is not a starter. He is a very good situational inside pass rusher. I have no opinion on Guion, but I cannot see any situation where Daniels is successful or being used optimally as a starting end.

Well I compared us to the Saints who were a top 5 D last year but they just had their shit pushed in as well so maybe that comparison wasn't the compliment I thought it was. They sucked against the run and still make it work by using the clock as a run defense. We might have the worst DL out there but Daniels is the brightest spot. He's good enough with leverage to do anything but in a 1-gapping 3-4 scheme I think it'd be tough to find someone more optimal than him to play DE. Datone Jones fits your description of Daniels better than Daniels IMO. Guion is just camp fodder we're forced to use right now. Pennel better be active next week. That just leaves Boyd who outplayed most of the old guard last year so I'm not too concerned with him. Sure seemed like we'd be playing more 1-gapping type defense this season in which case I think this group would be fine. If Jones and Daniels are asked to be Raji, Pickett, Jolly, or CJ Wilson they are going to suck and make our ILB look even worse.

[call_me_ishmael]

I like Datone Jones - though I do think he hasn't shown much to be excited about. Certainly not a star type guy. I have to imagine w/ his athleticism and length that he'll be "solid" at a bare minimum. I wish we would have signed somebody like Tyson Jackson to man the other end spot.

I disagree w/ your assessment about Daniels. He may have the highest ceiling as an internal pass rusher but I don't see an end there. He is too short. How can a guy that's 6' go against a guy with 6'4" or 6'6"? That would be a very difficult order to consistently win that battle.

I think I like Pennel more than Guion simply on body type. I have been stressing all off-season how I want to go to a early 2000s Jaguar defensive line w/ 6'6" Marcus Stroud and 6'7" John Henderson. I'm tired of these short and squatty guys. JJ Watt body type is the new 3-4 prototype at end. Athletic, 6'5" and 290-300ish.

Moving beyond personnel, I look at how Seattle plays D and it appears to me that they are run blitzing and guessing on just about every first and second down. They are just swarming off the snap. I wish we'd do something like that instead of playing read-and-react. I think guys get excited and will play closer to their potential when they're attacking versus reacting.

[3irty1]

I like Datone Jones - though I do think he hasn't shown much to be excited about. Certainly not a star type guy. I have to imagine w/ his athleticism and length that he'll be "solid" at a bare minimum. I wish we would have signed somebody like Tyson Jackson to man the other end spot.

I disagree w/ your assessment about Daniels. He may have the highest ceiling as an internal pass rusher but I don't see an end there. He is too short. How can a guy that's 6' go against a guy with 6'4" or 6'6"? That would be a very difficult order to consistently win that battle.

I think I like Pennel more than Guion simply on body type. I have been stressing all off-season how I want to go to a early 2000s Jaguar defensive line w/ 6'6" Marcus Stroud and 6'7" John Henderson. I'm tired of these short and squatty guys. JJ Watt body type is the new 3-4 prototype at end. Athletic, 6'5" and 290-300ish.

Moving beyond personnel, I look at how Seattle plays D and it appears to me that they are run blitzing and guessing on just about every first and second down. They are just swarming off the snap. I wish we'd do something like that instead of playing read-and-react. I think guys get excited and will play closer to their potential when they're attacking versus reacting.

He doesn't look the part but neither does Aaron Donald. He plays low and balanced, has the violence and hands to slip blocks, the speed to stop plays before they start, and the motor to get it done in pursuit. His production speaks for itself, its not the normal way to skin a cat but that's why we got him where we did in the draft.

Everything Ted did and MM said before this season made me think we were going to see more of an attacking type of assignments. Sure seems like the way to go with the guys we have. Seattle has Mebane, McDaniels, and last year Red Bryant who are all good block eatters so they can pretty much run any kind of scheme they want and it seems to work.

[call_me_ishmael]

He doesn't look the part but neither does Aaron Donald. He plays low and balanced, has the violence and hands to slip blocks, the speed to stop plays before they start, and the motor to get it done in pursuit. His production speaks for itself, its not the normal way to skin a cat but that's why we got him where we did in the draft.

Everything Ted did and MM said before this season made me think we were going to see more of an attacking type of assignments. Sure seems like the way to go with the guys we have. Seattle has Mebane, McDaniels, and last year Red Bryant who are all good block eatters so they can pretty much run any kind of scheme they want and it seems to work.

I don't think Aaron Donald would be great outside, either. Tackles are going to be much quicker and longer than guards and will tear up those short guys.

If we have ILBs that could cover, we could aggressively get after the run a lot better and send some heat. However, I don't think AJ or Brad can run with most TEs these days.

[pbmax]

Packers front four in the new 4-3. I have no numbers how often this was the alignment, but coverage makes it seem like most common. and Butler on JSO was referring to it as the new lineup.

(from D backfield)

Peppers (6' 7", 287) - DJones (6' 4", 285) - Daniels (6' 0", 305) - Neal (6' 3", 285)

Now tell me how that is a 2 man line with no beef.

[smuggler]

Are Peppers and Neal really that heavy right now?

[call_me_ishmael]

Packers front four in the new 4-3. I have no numbers how often this was the alignment, but coverage makes it seem like most common. and Butler on JSO was referring to it as the new lineup.

(from D backfield)

Peppers (6' 7", 287) - DJones (6' 4", 285) - Daniels (6' 0", 305) - Neal (6' 3", 285)

Now tell me how that is a 2 man line with no beef.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/274388821.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Good read above.

Neal is closer to 265 I think.

If they run that front pretty consistently, I'll be happy with it. It seems much more desirable than their traditional 3-4 personnel.

I would like to see Nick Perry start in place of Brad Jones. I realize they don't play the same position but I just want athletic, big, strong and fast guys on the field and I want them running run blitzes, stunts, etc. All of the different things we don't normally do!

[Zool]

Packers front four in the new 4-3. I have no numbers how often this was the alignment, but coverage makes it seem like most common. and Butler on JSO was referring to it as the new lineup.

(from D backfield)

Peppers (6' 7", 287) - DJones (6' 4", 285) - Daniels (6' 0", 305) - Neal (6' 3", 285)

Now tell me how that is a 2 man line with no beef.

Isn't the counter to that not bulk but positioning?

Also, when Hawk and Jones are part of the 3, we are sunk no matter the line. I actually long for Paris Lennon.

[pbmax]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/274388821.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Good read above.

Neal is closer to 265 I think.

If they run that front pretty consistently, I'll be happy with it. It seems much more desirable than their traditional 3-4 personnel.

I would like to see Nick Perry start in place of Brad Jones. I realize they don't play the same position but I just want athletic, big, strong and fast guys on the field and I want them running run blitzes, stunts, etc. All of the different things we don't normally do!

Entirely possible, it was reported he lost some more weight but I didn't remember the official or reported number. So I played it even by going with listed weights.

However, even at 265 Neal is a pretty typically sized pass rushing DE. He is not small and my bet is he is still pretty strong. He isn't KGB out there.

[pbmax]

Isn't the counter to that not bulk but positioning?

Also, when Hawk and Jones are part of the 3, we are sunk no matter the line. I actually long for Paris Lennon.

Positioning for the 4 isn't as important as the fits with them and the LB. Butler made the point on the JSO video casts with Silverstein that Jones and Hawk too often seem to be making uncoordinated movements, like they are playing two different calls or seeing two different plays.

But Matthews is no more an ILB than Jones.

[KYPack]

I got a different category. Guys that weren't exactly duds or something.

Neal played hard and battled his ass off all game. He never gave up and gave 100% even when that didn't make sense.

Our corners are really great players and missed some stuff, but that's a top tandem out there.

The young center was also battling his ass off all game and I only saw one high snap. He had the fuck-up Rodgers reamed him for, but that's par.

Bahk was rated by one of the rating services as having a C+ game, but he only had his normal hands penalty that I saw.

Nick Perry never backed off and is country strong out there. He gave guys he is gonna face some tape to think about. That bull rush of his is powerful

[Patler]

Bahk was rated by one of the rating services as having a C+ game, but he only had his normal hands penalty that I saw.


Didn't he also have a head-butt penalty after the safety, making the soon-to-be great field position for the Seahawks offense even better?

[Tony Oday]

Still think we need a fat guy up front. Ray Lewis was better when Ngata because well he eats blockers.

[call_me_ishmael]

Entirely possible, it was reported he lost some more weight but I didn't remember the official or reported number. So I played it even by going with listed weights.

However, even at 265 Neal is a pretty typically sized pass rushing DE. He is not small and my bet is he is still pretty strong. He isn't KGB out there.

100% agreed. I think the lighter Neal is, the healthier he'll stay going forward. He is going to be a player this year I think.

[wist43]

Positioning for the 4 isn't as important as the fits with them and the LB. Butler made the point on the JSO video casts with Silverstein that Jones and Hawk too often seem to be making uncoordinated movements, like they are playing two different calls or seeing two different plays.

But Matthews is no more an ILB than Jones.

I watched LeRoy's video cast... he called the Elephant a 4-3 too, I simply don't agree with that designation. If you're standing up on the end of the line, and you can be called on to drop - I'm sorry, but by definition, you're a LB.

They list Peppers as a LB.

Still, the Elephant alignment would be an improvement over that idiotic 2-4, so that is a step in the right direction. The 2-5 on the other hand - is more Capers Gimmickry.

Capers simply can't bring himself to play straight up, hard nosed defense anymore - it's just one gimmick after another. He's killing our team, and he's wasting Rodgers best years.

In 5 years we're gonna look back and wonder how in the hell we could have squandered a HOF QB's best years like that.

[3irty1]

I was wondering what the hell they were talking about with the 4-3. I called it a 3-4 when I saw it because Neal was standing at ROLB, Peppers was at LDE and Matthews was at LOLB. Other than some musical chairs I'm not sure what's so new about that, we've had 3-4 underfronts before that are essentially the same concept as a 4-3 under.

[pbmax]

I was wondering what the hell they were talking about with the 4-3. I called it a 3-4 when I saw it because Neal was standing at ROLB, Peppers was at LDE and Matthews was at LOLB. Other than some musical chairs I'm not sure what's so new about that, we've had 3-4 underfronts before that are essentially the same concept as a 4-3 under.

Couple of things:

1. The elephant end is probably defined by the fact that they don't want Matthews to have to play it. They want him to roam, so that duplication of physical form/skill set we talked about and M3 mentioned is where Peppers, Neal and maybe Perry come into play as elephants.

2. Its a bigger set of ends/OLB without Mathews (not that he is the problem).

3. Its the placement of Jones over the TE.

4. Assignments along the line change as they might no longer have 2 ILBs. Hawk is a Will is that alignment I think. They count on Matthews to draw another blocker to keep Hawk clean OR for Mathews to chase it down on his own.

[wist43]

Couple of things:

1. The elephant end is probably defined by the fact that they don't want Matthews to have to play it. They want him to roam, so that duplication of physical form/skill set we talked about and M3 mentioned is where Peppers, Neal and maybe Perry come into play as elephants.

2. Its a bigger set of ends/OLB without Mathews (not that he is the problem).

3. Its the placement of Jones over the TE.

4. Assignments along the line change as they might no longer have 2 ILBs. Hawk is a Will is that alignment I think. They count on Matthews to draw another blocker to keep Hawk clean OR for Mathews to chase it down on his own.

You still can't call it a 4-3. Call an Elephant, call it a 3-4, in the nickel call it a 3-3... but in no way can you call it a 4-3.

As for ILB's?? With rare exception, Hawk and Jones never come off the field!!! How insane is that?? 2 of our worst starting players - who should no longer be starting - never come off the field, when there are more useful and talented DL inactive and/or standing on the sidelines??

Capers has fucked this team, and TT/MM have gone along with it. Can't begin to fathom why that is so hard for you homers to admit.

[pbmax]

You still can't call it a 4-3. Call an Elephant, call it a 3-4, in the nickel call it a 3-3... but in no way can you call it a 4-3.

As for ILB's?? With rare exception, Hawk and Jones never come off the field!!! How insane is that?? 2 of our worst starting players - who should no longer be starting - never come off the field, when there are more useful and talented DL inactive and/or standing on the sidelines??

Capers has fucked this team, and TT/MM have gone along with it. Can't begin to fathom why that is so hard for you homers to admit.

You can't even be happy when Dom and Mike agree with you, can you?

[pbmax]

BTW, just because this is the ONLY thing I was even close to right about this offseason, the Packers have adopted the Patriots approach to covering for injuries and fewer practices.

Regardless of personnel, the role and assignments out there are a 4-3 under on almost every down. They did play 3-4 in the game, but my bet is that it was the Eagle Oakie, which mimics the 4-3 but uses 3-4 personnel to do it.

That means that the younger players have fewer techniques and positions to learn and substitutes can be brought up to speed faster. The result is that you hope to not have to dumb the playbook down if you lose some guys.

[pbmax]

I watched LeRoy's video cast... he called the Elephant a 4-3 too, I simply don't agree with that designation. If you're standing up on the end of the line, and you can be called on to drop - I'm sorry, but by definition, you're a LB.

As I recall, one of your contentions for a 3-3 not harming coverage appreciably with either Jones or Hawk out was that you could, in order to confuse the offense and allow Matthews to continue to rush, drop one of the LOS players (lineman, Perry or Peppers) into coverage.

So unless you are gong to tell me that your 3-3 was manned by five or six linebackers, I get to call Peppers on the LOS a lineman if he spends the majority of his time and assignments on the LOS.

[wist43]

You can't even be happy when Dom and Mike agree with you, can you?

They haven't fixed anything - I think the Elephant is an improvement, but what wouldn't be an improvement from what dunderdummy has been doing for 3 years??

So even though the Elephant look is a legitimate NFL alignment, they only ran it sparingly. The 2-5 has replaced the 2-4 on run/pass downs, and the 2-4 is still the go-to nickel. The 2-5 is a joke - especially when your LB's suck!!

It's just gimmick after gimmick; so, no they haven't fixed what ails us, they just loaded up another gimmick.

How dunderdummy sold MM on more 2-4, and as a supposed substitute for actually running a base defense that focused on controlling the LOS and taking away the run first - the 2-5, is beyond me.

Gimmicks are no substitute for playing fundamental football.

[wist43]

As I recall, one of your contentions for a 3-3 not harming coverage appreciably with either Jones or Hawk out was that you could, in order to confuse the offense and allow Matthews to continue to rush, drop one of the LOS players (lineman, Perry or Peppers) into coverage.

So unless you are gong to tell me that your 3-3 was manned by five or six linebackers, I get to call Peppers on the LOS a lineman if he spends the majority of his time and assignments on the LOS.

Why not call Matthews a defensive lineman then?? He rushes upfield on almost every play.

Max = Dom ;)

[Tony Oday]

Oh and Sherrod is fucking terrible. I think he must still have a broken leg with how dismal is performance was.

[pbmax]

Why not call Matthews a defensive lineman then?? He rushes upfield on almost every play.

Max = Dom ;)

Because Matthews has three strikes against him.

1. He is in coverage more

2. He moves around a lot

3. And size could be an issue if he was supposed to hold an interior gap on a regular basis.

But we are still just arguing semantics. The 4-3 in both base and nickel form has bigger men in it now at the two ends/OLB. Which was specifically your concern. You hated jumbo (no pass rush) and didn't like being small for pass rush because its an invitation to get run on.

This addresses it. It just isn't a 3-3.

Capers also addressed how much they used it. After blowing two personnel group calls in the first half, they abandoned it in the second and went almost straight nickel.

[wist43]

Because Matthews has three strikes against him.

1. He is in coverage more

2. He moves around a lot

3. And size could be an issue if he was supposed to hold an interior gap on a regular basis.

But we are still just arguing semantics. The 4-3 in both base and nickel form has bigger men in it now at the two ends/OLB. Which was specifically your concern. You hated jumbo (no pass rush) and didn't like being small for pass rush because its an invitation to get run on.

This addresses it. It just isn't a 3-3.

Capers also addressed how much they used it. After blowing two personnel group calls in the first half, they abandoned it in the second and went almost straight nickel.

If it's an Elephant - it is closer to a 3-4 in base, and a 3-3 in nickel - b/c you have 3 down linemen... give it up Max!! 3 down linemen is 3 down linemen.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, they've made changes - but the changes they've made still cling to a philosophy that is fundamentally flawed, i.e. they believe every single, stinking play is going to be a pass - therefore there is no need to control the LOS.

If the 2-5 is going to be their predominate seven man front, then they are still too small up front to deal with the run effectively. Apparently, Dom's sales pitch to MM was that he would get away from the 2-4 24/7 by substituting a LB for a DB on some downs - doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to when that idiot plays nickel or base, as he was in nickel in more than 1 short yardage situation.

Who was the extra LB BTW?? I didn't look to see who was in there, and I've since erased the game.

The changes made are still flawed b/c of the school of thought out of which they come. Add to that the fact that we have the worst pair of starting ILB's in the league - and you have the recipe for a huge mess; which is exactly what we have.

It will be interesting to see how dunderdummy plays the Jets - b/c they have no passing game whatsoever. If he plays any 2-5/2-4 fronts... I propose we storm the coaches booth, tar and feather him, and run him out of town on a rail.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypW9ptwviRU

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

pbmax and wist43, I am enjoying the hell out of your conversation, but you two should really get a room :)

[wist43]

pbmax and wist43, I am enjoying the hell out of your conversation, but you two should really get a room :)

It's like trying to explain to someone in Oceania that 2+2 does not = 5!!! lol...

3 down linemen - IS 3 down linemen. Shouldn't that be the end of of discussing 3-whatever??

Hopefully we can move on to what those 3 are doing, and what the second level is up to... ala what LeRoy Butler was talking about in his breaking down some of what went wrong in our defensive front.

You should go to JS and check out his video with Silverstein - rips on Hawk and Jones quite a bit; Burnett a bit too... bottom line is, this defense is very poorly designed, and very poorly coached.

I really do hope they can get it fixed, b/c I think we have some talent on defense; but of course, I have less than zero faith in Capers and the defensive coaching staff across the board.

[smuggler]

I wonder if Kevin Greene jumped ship because he didn't like the direction of the defense and didn't want to be associated with Capers... Hard to move up by attaching yourself to a failing product.

[MadScientist]

The defense is designed to have the run taken away by the Packers offense, and then to get occasional stops or turnovers. When that doesn't happen it looks like shit.

[Rutnstrut]

It doesn't matter what label is on the defense if no one sheds blocks or tackles.

[wist43]

It doesn't matter what label is on the defense if no one sheds blocks or tackles.

Well, lol... there's that too :)

What a mess...

Ya know what's gonna happen - the Jets are going to come in with their completely anemic offense, and the defense's numbers will look better. Everyone will celebrate that it's fixed. When in reality, we just played an offense that is shittier than our defense.

[3irty1]

Wist I think what you're calling the 2-5, what you're calling an elephant, what I called a 3-4, and what JS is calling a 4-3 are all the same people in the same place with the same responsibility. The only difference is that Peppers and Neal have the freedom to stand or put a hand on the ground.

[3irty1]

Well, lol... there's that too :)

What a mess...

Ya know what's gonna happen - the Jets are going to come in with their completely anemic offense, and the defense's numbers will look better. Everyone will celebrate that it's fixed. When in reality, we just played an offense that is shittier than our defense.

I don't know, the Jets are a physical team whose offense runs on nothing but misdirection and Chris Johnson. Rodgers should bounce back against their shit secondary but the defense is going to get a bunch more of the same.

[Rastak]

It's like trying to explain to someone in Oceania that 2+2 does not = 5!!! lol...

3 down linemen - IS 3 down linemen. Shouldn't that be the end of of discussing 3-whatever??

Hopefully we can move on to what those 3 are doing, and what the second level is up to... ala what LeRoy Butler was talking about in his breaking down some of what went wrong in our defensive front.

You should go to JS and check out his video with Silverstein - rips on Hawk and Jones quite a bit; Burnett a bit too... bottom line is, this defense is very poorly designed, and very poorly coached.

I really do hope they can get it fixed, b/c I think we have some talent on defense; but of course, I have less than zero faith in Capers and the defensive coaching staff across the board.

Wist, We've always been at war with Eastasia.

[wist43]

Wist, We've always been at war with Eastasia.

No, that was Eurasia... Emmanual Goldstein is a slippery chap ;)

By they by... you guys looked very stout on Sunday. Granted it was only the Rams, but I suspected that Zimmer would get you guys headed in the right direction. I own Patterson in a couple of fantasy leagues - he's the real deal.

Division is really up for grabs this year.

[wist43]

Wist I think what you're calling the 2-5, what you're calling an elephant, what I called a 3-4, and what JS is calling a 4-3 are all the same people in the same place with the same responsibility. The only difference is that Peppers and Neal have the freedom to stand or put a hand on the ground.

I don't think it's that complicated - if you have your hand in the dirt, and you're firing off the line, and engaging an OL?? Then call me crazy, but that by definition is a defensive lineman. If you are standing up, roaming, feigning into gaps... then you are, by definition, a LB.

I counted 1 play the entire game in which we had 4 guys with their hand in the dirt - the vast majority of the time, they had Dom's standard 2.

Seriously, it's like I've stepped into an episode of the Twilight Zone.

[pbmax]

It doesn't matter what label is on the defense if no one sheds blocks or tackles.

On this we all agree.

[pbmax]

It's like trying to explain to someone in Oceania that 2+2 does not = 5!!! lol...

3 down linemen - IS 3 down linemen. Shouldn't that be the end of of discussing 3-whatever??

Hopefully we can move on to what those 3 are doing, and what the second level is up to... ala what LeRoy Butler was talking about in his breaking down some of what went wrong in our defensive front.

He did downgrade the effort of Burnett on two of the plays and I thought it was a pretty clear explanation of why, however even Butler doesn't know the call. So while I love the idea of Burnett running into the teeth of the Jet sweep, he might have had other responsibilities. I erased a mention of it earlier because I didn't want to get distracted by another problem.

Still think you are too worried on the stance of the 4 lineman. Down or UP, Neal and Peppers are beefier than the predecessors. Both have in-line experience. And their responsibilities are those of lineman so far. The funny thing is, on non-passing downs, I think Perry came in for Peppers. If you had suggested this over the summer, it would have generated a lot of laughs. But Perry is a tough son of a gun in-line as well.

At some point I will fork over the 60 bucks and get Game Rewind and rewatch. But its going to take a couple of weeks.

[wist43]

He did downgrade the effort of Burnett on two of the plays and I thought it was a pretty clear explanation of why, however even Butler doesn't know the call. So while I love the idea of Burnett running into the teeth of the Jet sweep, he might have had other responsibilities. I erased a mention of it earlier because I didn't want to get distracted by another problem.

Still think you are too worried on the stance of the 4 lineman. Down or UP, Neal and Peppers are beefier than the predecessors. Both have in-line experience. And their responsibilities are those of lineman so far. The funny thing is, on non-passing downs, I think Perry came in for Peppers. If you had suggested this over the summer, it would have generated a lot of laughs. But Perry is a tough son of a gun in-line as well.

At some point I will fork over the 60 bucks and get Game Rewind and rewatch. But its going to take a couple of weeks.

I want the Packers to treat the LOS as if it were turf worth fighting for and winning - Capers does not believe that.

Capers believes every snap of the ball is going to be a pass... hence, there is no need to do anything with regard to winning the LOS. He thinks he can pretty much abandon the middle of the field, or at most plop a couple of fat guys in there in the rare event that the offense might be dumb enough to run the ball...

Throw on top of that misguided approach a couple of ILB's who really don't belong on NFL rosters anymore - and you have the 2013-14 Packers defense.

When you get rewind - watch Hawk... he's truly pathetic. On Lynch's 9 yd TD run?? WTF is he looking at?? He simply ran himself out the play and joined the other 5 front players in being washed away, while Lynch laughed his way into the end zone untouched... check that, his shirt tail was being pulled, lol...

Then I remember another play where Hawk was late reacting to the TE in the flat... late reacting, you can see the light bulb go on, '... oh yeah, I'm supposed to cover that guy over there"... he sets off for the flat like a bloke with cement shoes. He stumbles b/c he doesn't have the speed or athleticism to get out there... it was truly pathetic.

The scheme is flawed and unsound, the players are not being used properly - again; all of them are confused at times - sometimes all of them at the same time!!! On and on with this crap...

I don't think they can fix it... Capers has just made too big a mess of everything, and the ILB's are just too much of a liability to overcome.

[3irty1]

I don't think it's that complicated - if you have your hand in the dirt, and you're firing off the line, and engaging an OL?? Then call me crazy, but that by definition is a defensive lineman. If you are standing up, roaming, feigning into gaps... then you are, by definition, a LB.

I counted 1 play the entire game in which we had 4 guys with their hand in the dirt - the vast majority of the time, they had Dom's standard 2.

Seriously, it's like I've stepped into an episode of the Twilight Zone.

Say in this Twilight Zone, you were able to not shit your pants about who was standing up and who is down in a stance. In such a world the the 2-5 we saw, whatever formation you call an elephant, some of the 3-4 looks I saw in the first half, and 4-3 that apparently only Bob McGinn saw could all be the same play because they all have the same people in the same place with the same responsibilities. I would name a formation based on what the guys at the line are doing, not the numbers on their jersey, but clearly Bob disagrees which is the source of the confusion here. I'm just trying to get the vernacular sorted out.

I do agree with Max though. Standing up vs hand on the ground for your End/LB types isn't as significant as who those players are, where they are lined up, and what their responsibilities are. I don't think standing up Peppers automatically makes him 25% as effective against the run like you've been saying for years in your 2-4 rants.

[pbmax]

The Packers are calling it a 4-3 and asked the reporters not to break the news before the first game.

[Rastak]

No, that was Eurasia... Emmanual Goldstein is a slippery chap ;)

By they by... you guys looked very stout on Sunday. Granted it was only the Rams, but I suspected that Zimmer would get you guys headed in the right direction. I own Patterson in a couple of fantasy leagues - he's the real deal.

Division is really up for grabs this year.

I am somewhat optimistic. The coaching staff they got in play from Turner to Zimmer haeding the way to Jerry Gray coaching DBs makes me think it's just a year or two away from some serious hay at worst.......now watch me be disapointed as always.....

[pbmax]

Speaking of the Hawk stumble, did anyone else notice a large number of Packers just falling down of their own accord during the game?

[George Cumby]

The defense is designed to have the run taken away by the Packers offense, and then to get occasional stops or turnovers. When that doesn't happen it looks like shit.

Which is what happened during the SB run and 2011. Nice point.

[Carolina_Packer]

I want the Packers to treat the LOS as if it were turf worth fighting for and winning - Capers does not believe that.

Capers believes every snap of the ball is going to be a pass... hence, there is no need to do anything with regard to winning the LOS. He thinks he can pretty much abandon the middle of the field, or at most plop a couple of fat guys in there in the rare event that the offense might be dumb enough to run the ball...

Throw on top of that misguided approach a couple of ILB's who really don't belong on NFL rosters anymore - and you have the 2013-14 Packers defense.

When you get rewind - watch Hawk... he's truly pathetic. On Lynch's 9 yd TD run?? WTF is he looking at?? He simply ran himself out the play and joined the other 5 front players in being washed away, while Lynch laughed his way into the end zone untouched... check that, his shirt tail was being pulled, lol...

Then I remember another play where Hawk was late reacting to the TE in the flat... late reacting, you can see the light bulb go on, '... oh yeah, I'm supposed to cover that guy over there"... he sets off for the flat like a bloke with cement shoes. He stumbles b/c he doesn't have the speed or athleticism to get out there... it was truly pathetic.

The scheme is flawed and unsound, the players are not being used properly - again; all of them are confused at times - sometimes all of them at the same time!!! On and on with this crap...

I don't think they can fix it... Capers has just made too big a mess of everything, and the ILB's are just too much of a liability to overcome.

Wist, did you read the article by Greg Cosell the day after the game? Someone mentioned it in another post, but I think it's worth repeating. Seattle is not a team that says this is what we're running and try and stop us, like the old Green Bay sweep, they do a great job of deceiving and reacting off of what the defense is showing them. How would a defense better prepare for that? Were we bound to have that kind of game on defense because Capers has become too predictable, do we still not have enough talent on that side of the ball, or did they just lay an egg and they can play much better?

[Rutnstrut]

Wist, did you read the article by Greg Cosell the day after the game? Someone mentioned it in another post, but I think it's worth repeating. Seattle is not a team that says this is what we're running and try and stop us, like the old Green Bay sweep, they do a great job of deceiving and reacting off of what the defense is showing them. How would a defense better prepare for that? Were we bound to have that kind of game on defense because Capers has become too predictable, do we still not have enough talent on that side of the ball, or did they just lay an egg and they can play much better?

If you blame lack of talent, that's on TT. He has had enough time to get the defense some decent talent. Capers is "supposed" to be great at reacting to the surprises offenses throw at them and changing it up. In actuality he is not and needs to go.

[Rutnstrut]

I wonder if Kevin Greene jumped ship because he didn't like the direction of the defense and didn't want to be associated with Capers... Hard to move up by attaching yourself to a failing product.

That's exactly what I said when he "left to be with family". That whole spending every free moment with the wife and kids deal gets old fast.

[wist43]

Here is quote from Rex Ryan on why they drafted Calvin Pryor instead of Clinton-Dix...

"Both guys were excellent players," Ryan said, per ESPN. "We would have been happy with either guy. But I took the guy who will knock your face in."

And therein lies the difference in philosphies between a truly tough, defensive minded coach - and the crap that the Packers keep puking up every year.

Drag down tacklers, poor zone defenders and tacklers, and run-around LB's... the Packers reputation for being soft is self-inflicted and well deserved.

[call_me_ishmael]

Here is quote from Rex Ryan on why they drafted Calvin Pryor instead of Clinton-Dix...

"Both guys were excellent players," Ryan said, per ESPN. "We would have been happy with either guy. But I took the guy who will knock your face in."

And therein lies the difference in philosphies between a truly tough, defensive minded coach - and the crap that the Packers keep puking up every year.

Drag down tacklers, poor zone defenders and tacklers, and run-around LB's... the Packers reputation for being soft is self-inflicted and well deserved.

Gimme the 6'1" guy over the 5'10" every day of the week, though.

[wist43]

Gimme the 6'1" guy over the 5'10" every day of the week, though.

Are we talking about evening gown models - or knock your teeth out football players??

Give me the tougher, more physical player.

Of course, the Packers prefer the evening gown players... not that Clinton-Dix is all finesse - we'll see... but I wanted Pryor over Dix for the same reason that Rex Ryan cited.

[wist43]

Wist, did you read the article by Greg Cosell the day after the game? Someone mentioned it in another post, but I think it's worth repeating. Seattle is not a team that says this is what we're running and try and stop us, like the old Green Bay sweep, they do a great job of deceiving and reacting off of what the defense is showing them. How would a defense better prepare for that? Were we bound to have that kind of game on defense because Capers has become too predictable, do we still not have enough talent on that side of the ball, or did they just lay an egg and they can play much better?

I think I might have skimmed it...

I'm all for deception - but deception while being sound and physical. The Packers achieve none of the above.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's exactly what I said when he "left to be with family". That whole spending every free moment with the wife and kids deal gets old fast.

In wonder if the wife and kids ever get a vote in those early retirement.

[Pugger]

Are we talking about evening gown models - or knock your teeth out football players??

Give me the tougher, more physical player.

Of course, the Packers prefer the evening gown players... not that Clinton-Dix is all finesse - we'll see... but I wanted Pryor over Dix for the same reason that Rex Ryan cited.

Good lord. We have no clue if TT wanted Pryor because he was gone by the time our pick came up. And we have no clue if Ted called the Jets about trading places either.

[denverYooper]

Good lord. We have no clue if TT wanted Pryor because he was gone by the time our pick came up. And we have no clue if Ted called the Jets about trading places either.

Doesn't matter. Haha is the guy Green Bay needs. He's going to be a very good player.

[wist43]

Good lord. We have no clue if TT wanted Pryor because he was gone by the time our pick came up. And we have no clue if Ted called the Jets about trading places either.

Didn't I hear TT say that Clinton-Dix was their number 1 Safety??

Maybe that's PR, but I believe him - CD is more of a finesse player, and Pryor is more physical. Everyone knew that - and everyone knows that Pryor would be the type of player Rex Ryan would like; and CD would be the type of player TT would like.

The Packers are all finesse, all the time - and it shows. Capers 2-4 and 2-5; finesse, weak ILB's; look at our Safeties; our CB's are excellent cover men - what is their weakness?? Tackling and physicality. Finesse is engrained within the Packers organization, coaching staff, and scouting dept. Those are the players our scouts and coaches like.

I don't think saying that is going out on a limb... all of the evidence says that is the case.

[smuggler]

Except isn't one of the problems with the defense the last few seasons the lack of a ball-hawking center fielder? Pryor might be a more hard-nosed guy, but he does not have the range of CD.

I agree I'd like us to be tougher - specifically at ILB... but I don't think CD is the problem.

[Rutnstrut]

Good lord. We have no clue if TT wanted Pryor because he was gone by the time our pick came up. And we have no clue if Ted called the Jets about trading places either.

True, but TT's history is to get the ferries and pass on the fighters

[call_me_ishmael]

Are we talking about evening gown models - or knock your teeth out football players??

Give me the tougher, more physical player.

Of course, the Packers prefer the evening gown players... not that Clinton-Dix is all finesse - we'll see... but I wanted Pryor over Dix for the same reason that Rex Ryan cited.

You'd probably like 5'8" big-hitter Bob Sanders. I'll take the guy who can cover the new breed of NFL receiver. 6'1" is almost too short going forward.

[KYPack]

Those high pick DL's they have allow a guy like Prior to blow up people.

He sells out & all, but gives up as many big plays as he makes.

He's a peeker and I hope ARod catches him peekin'.

[pbmax]

True, but TT's history is to get the ferries and pass on the fighters

I didn't know Ted likes boating.

[Joemailman]

I didn't know Ted likes boating.

The Vikings are more into ferries.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Vikings are more into ferries.

Not according to Chris Kluwe.

[denverYooper]

Not according to Chris Kluwe.

Way to take that one around the horn!

[Pugger]

Didn't I hear TT say that Clinton-Dix was their number 1 Safety??

Maybe that's PR, but I believe him - CD is more of a finesse player, and Pryor is more physical. Everyone knew that - and everyone knows that Pryor would be the type of player Rex Ryan would like; and CD would be the type of player TT would like.

The Packers are all finesse, all the time - and it shows. Capers 2-4 and 2-5; finesse, weak ILB's; look at our Safeties; our CB's are excellent cover men - what is their weakness?? Tackling and physicality. Finesse is engrained within the Packers organization, coaching staff, and scouting dept. Those are the players our scouts and coaches like.

I don't think saying that is going out on a limb... all of the evidence says that is the case.

Yeah, right, Ted is gonna say "We wanted Pryor but got stuck with Ha Ha". :roll: If we think about it Pryor is too short for us in this division with Megatron and those guys in Chicago to have to cover.

[Pugger]

The Vikings are more into ferries.

:lol: Well played sir!

[hoosier]

Way to take that one around the horn!

He gave it a reach-around.

[denverYooper]

Those high pick DL's they have allow a guy like Prior to blow up people.

He sells out & all, but gives up as many big plays as he makes.

He's a peeker and I hope ARod catches him peekin'.

That sounds like a guy the Packers need to shore up their problems with big plays.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Those high pick DL's they have allow a guy like Prior to blow up people.

He sells out & all, but gives up as many big plays as he makes.

He's a peeker and I hope ARod catches him peekin'.

We've had high pick DL as well. Difference is that ours have stunk.

[Fritz]

I thought Nick Perry played pretty well, pretty physically. That physicality is much-needed on this team.

I thought DuJuan Harris's kickoff-return decisions were stoopid.

Mike Neal hustled and hustled and hustled. He chased running backs downfield, never gave up. How can you not like that level of effort when so many guys seemed not to be really passionate about that game?

Did, uh, Mike Daniels even play?

[Zool]

I thought Nick Perry played pretty well, pretty physically. That physicality is much-needed on this team.

I thought DuJuan Harris's kickoff-return decisions were stoopid.

Mike Neal hustled and hustled and hustled. He chased running backs downfield, never gave up. How can you not like that level of effort when so many guys seemed not to be really passionate about that game?

Did, uh, Mike Daniels even play?

He took out the punter on a failed block attempt...so there's that

[Maxie the Taxi]

Daniels played 46 snaps out of a total of 70 defensive plays.

[Maxie the Taxi]

By the way, Letroy Guion was in for 36 defensive plays and Corey Linsley had more tackles than he did...1.