The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[wist43]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-shredded-by-marshawn-lynch-b99344723z1-274057691.html

Tom Silverstein article... he makes note of the fact that Raji being available wouldn't have made any difference b/c Capers gameplan was what it always is - line up in nickel, and blow a kiss to the RB as he blows past our undermanned front.

"It probably would not have mattered if the Packers had B.J. Raji, out for the year with a torn biceps, because the plan coordinator Dom Capers played rarely used the base 3-4 defense. Instead, the Packers played a hybrid nickel scheme where they kept just two defensive linemen in the game."

I was listening to Silverstein on the PRN pregame, and they were talking about only having 4 DL active. He said he thought Capers was going to play a lot of 2-4 nickel, and therefore they didn't need the defensive linemen. I commented in another thread, that if that was the case, we were toast before the coin flip - which proved to be the case.

We gave up 207 yds rushing, for a 5.6 yd average.

More of the same, more of the same... it's gonna be a very, very long year watching this defense.

I figured we'd lose this game, but what I wanted to see was a makeover on defense - the last thing I wanted to see was more 2-4, and then after that, still more 2-4. What we got?? Lots and lots of 2-4.

It's only 1 game - but the die is cast, a leopard doesn't change his spots - we are in for an entire season of getting completely gashed on the ground, and nothing will be done to fix it. Dom Capers cares nothing whatsoever about stopping the run.

If he devises a gameplan for a run heavy team like the Seahawks, a team that has very few passing game weapons... if he devises a gameplan for a team like that, that calls for nickel, nickel, and more nickel - then there is no hope whatsoever that he will do anything different against anyone else.

The '14 season is already a no-hoper b/c of Dom Capers.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You're right... Capers and also the fact that the offense looks significantly worse. Lacy didn't look like an nfl back yesterday. He looked fat and slow

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Oh and for all the people who think Cobb is going to cost 7 million plus forget it. Guy gets no separation at all.

But to stay on topic, yeah I watching the game with my brother and we were dumb founded why we invited then to run as if that was there weakness. We have zero quality dline man based off yesterday's performance

[call_me_ishmael]

You're right... Capers and also the fact that the offense looks significantly worse. Lacy didn't look like an nfl back yesterday. He looked fat and slow

Seriously? What space did he have? Seattle run blitzes every single play and blew everything up. He was hit behind the line almost every play!!!!

[Striker]

Plus there was the whole "amoeba" alignment.

[Tony Oday]

If they could tackle that would be nice...

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Seriously? What space did he have? Seattle run blitzes every single play and blew everything up. He was hit behind the line almost every play!!!!

Compared to the speed that the Hawks d plays with, he looked like he was moving in quick sand. And correction he IS fat AND looks fat. Put Lynch and Lacy side by side and you'll see what I'm talking about. Not saying he's not a good back, but he needs to get wiped into shape. Same body as last year. Guy needs a nutritionist

[MadtownPacker]

Why isn't anyone blaming the offense? Shit was terrible.

[esoxx]

The thing that really bugs me and I can't get over is we've seen this movie before. We've seen Jones exposed and to a lesser degree Hawk. Still, we're going on year 3 here where these two are still the ILB's. Why would anyone think they, and by extension the defense as a whole, be effective? Wake the fuck up TT, MM, and Capers. Glaring fuck up going in to another year with these two as your starters.

As the Fonz said to Ritchie, Ralph, & Potsie when they tried to be pick up girls on a camping trip by pretending they were Tunisian camel jocky's "that's the plan you guys came up with?!?!?!?" Woahhhhhhhhh

[wist43]

Why isn't anyone blaming the offense? Shit was terrible.

They have an elite defense - I think everyone expected that this would be a tough night for the offense.

The defense on the other hand - it's not like Seattle is the class of the league. They are good, but if you stop their running game and make them 1 dimensional, make Wilson beat you... they really don't have that many passing game weapons.

So there is a reason the offense struggled - the only reason the defense struggled, well maybe not the only reason, but the biggest reason the defense struggled (struggles) is b/c of dunderdummy and his mind-numbingly idiotic 2-4.

Nothing has changed from last year - our season is already over b/c of it. Capers is going to run that 2-4 all the way to another 25-32 finish in defense. No way can we compete with the elite teams in this league with a defensive coordinator who refuses to adjust and make the necessary changes.

[George Cumby]

Why isn't anyone blaming the offense? Shit was terrible.

Fat Mikes play calling, I.e.: not feeding Lacy the ball after the first possession and Rodgers multiple bad plays: run for the first down and don't throw across your body like your brain dead predecessor. It was really bizarre. I am really about done with Fat Mike.

[denverYooper]

They have an elite defense - I think everyone expected that this would be a tough night for the offense.

The defense on the other hand - it's not like Seattle is the class of the league. They are good, but if you stop their running game and make them 1 dimensional, make Wilson beat you... they really don't have that many passing game weapons.

So there is a reason the offense struggled - the only reason the defense struggled, well maybe not the only reason, but the biggest reason the defense struggled (struggles) is b/c of dunderdummy and his mind-numbingly idiotic 2-4.

Nothing has changed from last year - our season is already over b/c of it. Capers is going to run that 2-4 all the way to another 25-32 finish in defense. No way can we compete with the elite teams in this league with a defensive coordinator who refuses to adjust and make the necessary changes.

Statistically, and elite offense vs an elite defense should be pretty close to a 50/50 proposition. Green Bay's offense has been stifled by elite defenses to an unsettling degree of consistency. They should, at times, be able to dictate those games and that has not been the case for the last couple of years.

[wist43]

Statistically, and elite offense vs an elite defense should be pretty close to a 50/50 proposition. Green Bay's offense has been stifled by elite defenses to an unsettling degree of consistency. They should, at times, be able to dictate those games and that has not been the case for the last couple of years.

That's certainly not due to a lack of quality skill position players - it is due to the OL and TT/MM's philosophy which rejects run blocking offensive linemen. The only way we can run the ball, is if we can pass the ball to set up the run.

It's the same old stuff with this team.

Still as I've explained, the offense has a track record of righting the ship over time - the defense being a mess is a constant.

We simply are not a legit contender, and as long as Dom Capers is our DC - we have no shot at another SB. The SB 3+ years ago really was a 'fart in the wind'. We got on a roll offensively, and only had to play flawed teams, very flawed teams, to win the title.

Now, some legit teams have risen up and we simply cannot compete with them. That's been proven over and over again... in embarrassing fashion I would add. In post-game coverage, some Packer analysts were talking about how in the last few years, we are 0-6 against the tough, physical, defensive minded teams like Seattle and SF.

We simply are not a contender - not with a defense like that.

[Armed Rodgery]

This defense in just poorly coached period. I coach 11-12 year old football and the easiest way to move the ball is misdirection, making three or four total opposite plays look just alike, trying to make the defense figure out who has the ball. Having 3 kids chasing a kid who doesnt even have the ball. Having your fastest guy just flying around as a decoy while the defense is drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Thats exactly what Sea did to us last night, they ran Pop Warner plays, playactions, our players were frozen. One play Peppers literally looked like he was playing freeze tag and was "it" while the guy ran past him, We were chasing guys who didnt even have the ball.

That screen to Lynch when they ran Harvin to the opposite side sucked in all the GB defense and tossed it to Lynch, MAN WE RUN THAT PLAY!!!!

I've seen 12 year old teams play the read option better than GB last night and thats no joke.

No lane/gap discipline, horrible outdated schemes. Its time to give Capers some much needed time off, he obviously is still running plays from his Steelers/ Panthers days. Anybody still calling this guy a guru, is living in the past.

Offseason, whoever is available on Sea or SF defensive staff for a DC position SIGN HIM.

[wist43]

1250 WSSP... they're just ripping the defense apart, lol...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkyskI13KOs

[wist43]

This defense in just poorly coached period. I coach 11-12 year old football and the easiest way to move the ball is misdirection, making three or four total opposite plays look just alike, trying to make the defense figure out who has the ball. Having 3 kids chasing a kid who doesnt even have the ball. Having your fastest guy just flying around as a decoy while the defense is drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Thats exactly what Sea did to us last night, they ran Pop Warner plays, playactions, our players were frozen. One play Peppers literally looked like he was playing freeze tag and was "it" while the guy ran past him, We were chasing guys who didnt even have the ball.

That screen to Lynch when they ran Harvin to the opposite side sucked in all the GB defense and tossed it to Lynch, MAN WE RUN THAT PLAY!!!!

I've seen 12 year old teams play the read option better than GB last night and thats no joke.

No lane/gap discipline, horrible outdated schemes. Its time to give Capers some much needed time off, he obviously is still running plays from his Steelers/ Panthers days. Anybody still calling this guy a guru, is living in the past.

Offseason, whoever is available on Sea or SF defensive staff for a DC position SIGN HIM.

LeRoy Butler was just commenting on wssp, that he did a double take, and had to rewind it to make he saw what he saw...

He said there was 1 play up the middle where Brad Jones was just completely frozen, and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix had to literally throw him out of the way to get a hit on the ball carrier, lol...

[Rutnstrut]

This defense in just poorly coached period. I coach 11-12 year old football and the easiest way to move the ball is misdirection, making three or four total opposite plays look just alike, trying to make the defense figure out who has the ball. Having 3 kids chasing a kid who doesnt even have the ball. Having your fastest guy just flying around as a decoy while the defense is drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Thats exactly what Sea did to us last night, they ran Pop Warner plays, playactions, our players were frozen. One play Peppers literally looked like he was playing freeze tag and was "it" while the guy ran past him, We were chasing guys who didnt even have the ball.

That screen to Lynch when they ran Harvin to the opposite side sucked in all the GB defense and tossed it to Lynch, MAN WE RUN THAT PLAY!!!!

I've seen 12 year old teams play the read option better than GB last night and thats no joke.

No lane/gap discipline, horrible outdated schemes. Its time to give Capers some much needed time off, he obviously is still running plays from his Steelers/ Panthers days. Anybody still calling this guy a guru, is living in the past.

Offseason, whoever is available on Sea or SF defensive staff for a DC position SIGN HIM.

The thing is Capers shouldn't be here NOW, the fact that TT keeps him proves that TT is far from being one of the best GM's in the NFL.

[Brohm]

TT leaves it to MM to pick his coaches. He could demand a change, but that definitely changes their dynamic.

[Joemailman]

I think what happened last night was largely determined by who was active. By having only 4 d-linemen active, they almost had to play nickel most of the night. It might have had a chance to work if the Packers had gotten ahead and forced Seattle to abandon the running game. But when just the opposite happened, the Packers simply didn't have the horses to survive the onslaught. The decision to have active only 4 d-linemen against Seattle's offense was questionable at best.

[channtheman]

Yeah unfortunately, as long as MM is here, we know that Capers will be DC and Slocum will coach ST. Is this year 7 of Slocum and we continue to have coaching issues on ST (too many men on the field, stupid penalties). DC came in and had a 1 year improvement like he does everywhere. Now he was grown complacent and his defense sucks, like it has done everywhere he has been.

[Rutnstrut]

This team will not go to another SB until something drastic is done on defense.

[red]

wist, we all know you're driving the anti 2-4 alignment

what are you're thoughts on that wonderful 0-5 or 0-6 front that we saw last night

[denverYooper]

or the 2-4-4 at the goal line?

[Armed Rodgery]

or the 2-4-4 at the goal line?

That Capers is a visionary..Im sure he had his reasons for only having 10 guys out there.

[wist43]

wist, we all know you're driving the anti 2-4 alignment

what are you're thoughts on that wonderful 0-5 or 0-6 front that we saw last night

The dreaded "amoeba alignment", lol...

Not a fan... certainly not something that could be used with any regularity. They ran it a few times, but the game was already out of hand by the time they messed around with it.

I ran thru the tape and tried to account for alignments and the results - I'll throw a post together of what I saw.

[wist43]

Okay... blazed thru the tape, with the emphasis on blazed. Didn't study anything - why a given alignment failed or succeeded... except on a couple of occassions.

In the 1st half, they ran the 2-4 almost exclusively. I was surprised when I paused each presnap and realized they were actually in a 2-4. Watching the game live, some of what looked like Elephant, or even 3-4 was actually a 2-4 when I went thru the tape.

In the 1st half, they ran the 2-4 20 times out of 28 snaps.

They ran the 3-4 base only 3 times - one of the plays resulting in a Seattle holding call, so it was 'no play'.

They ran the Amoeba or Elephant 7 times, with 1 play (our only actual sack) being nullified by the brain surgeon, Brad Jones.

So in the first half, the results of the plays were (not in order, and with only scant observations):

2-4
Run +5 yds (on 1st and 10)
Pass +8
Run -1
Run +13
Pass - no gain (sack - run out of bounds, no sack really)
Run +5
Pass +4 (forced a 4th down)
Run +10 (on 1st and 20 after Seattle holding penalty)
Pass +9 (1st and 20 is now 3rd and 1)
Run +7 (on 3rd and 1, 3 wides split left, run right - too easy)
Pass -2
Pass +33 (next play was the other 33 yd gash for the TD against the Elephant)
Pass +22 (1st and 10, 2 wides)
Pass Incomplete
Run +21 (on 2nd and 5)
Run +9 (1st and goal from the 9, 3 wides, Hawk was laughable on this play, Touchdown)
Pass +2
Run +7
Run +5 (halftime)
Rushing yds allowed = 81 yds, and 1 TD
Passing yds allowed = 76 yds

3-4
Pass +4
Run (resulted in holding call that put the Seahawks at 1st and 20 from the own 10 yd line)
Run +2 (on 2nd and 1)
Rushing yds allowed = 2 yds
Passing yds allowed = 4 yds

Elephant/Amoeba
E-Run +4 (1st and 10)
E-Pass Incomplete
E-Pass +33 (laughable TD)
E-Run +9
E-Pass (Sack nullified by Jones holding)
E-Run +8
E-Pass Incomplete
Rushing yds allowed = 21 yds
Passing yds allowed = 33 yds, 1 TD

That was the first half.

[wist43]

The 2nd half, dunderdummy actually played more base 3-4.

They ran the 2-4 less, 12 times out of 39 plays. Of those 39, 3 plays were negated by penalties, 1 by Seattle, 2 by us (Jones-holding and Shields-facemask). So the 2nd half saw us run the 2-4 exactly 33% of the time - a sharp drop off from the 1st half... dunderdummy did adjust.

They ran the 3-4 15 times out of the 36 plays.

They ran the Elephant or Amoeba 9 times.

2nd half results (not in order)

2-4
Run +13 yds (1st and 10, 2 TE's)
Pass +1 (forced FG)
Run +16
Run No Gain
Pass Incomplete
Pass +8 (resulted in 1st down)
Run +13 (QB scramble)
Pass +14
Run +4
Pass +5
Run +7 (QB run, Shields facemask)
Rushing yds allowed = 53 yds
Passing yds allowed = 28 yds

3-4
Run +9 (3 wides)
Run +4
Pass Incomplete (Got pressure)
Pass Incomplete (1st and goal)
Run +5 (2nd and goal)
Run +4
Run NG
Run +3 (Touchdown)
Pass +1
Run +2
Run +1
Run +7
Run +2
Pass +15 (Touchdown)
Rushing yds allowed = 35 yds, 1 TD
Passing yds allowed = 16 yds, 1 TD

Elephant/Amoeba
A-Pass Incomplete (blitz)
E-Pass +6 (forced punt)
A-Run +1
E-Pass +9
E-Run +4
Pass Incomplete (4-3, got pressure)
A-Pass +10 (first down)
E-Run +6
Rushing yds allowed = 11 yds
Passing yds allowed = 25 yds

So there it is... as complete a rundown as I could throw together on the fly. I think I might have missed a couple of plays, and I didn't count Wilson's kneel downs... small things. Pretty tired typing this, so I might have screwed some of the math up, but it's close enough for government work ;)

[Pugger]

LeRoy Butler was just commenting on wssp, that he did a double take, and had to rewind it to make he saw what he saw...

He said there was 1 play up the middle where Brad Jones was just completely frozen, and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix had to literally throw him out of the way to get a hit on the ball carrier, lol...

I would love to see a clip of this. I pray after this pitiful performance Jones becomes the water boy and not one of our starting ILBers.

[George Cumby]

Wist, you deserve a medal or something far watching that shit again. Thanks a ton for putting the effort in, that's a lot of typing.

[gbgary]

people are overreacting i think. the nfl fucked us again with the hardest match-up right out of the gate. a game you can't game plan for against the best, most unpredictable, team in the league. we'll be fine.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

people are overreacting i think. the nfl fucked us again with the hardest match-up right out of the gate. a game you can't game plan for against the best, most unpredictable, team in the league. we'll be fine.

Fine as in competing for superbowl? Or what is your guess? I may have been over reacting but I thought the loss was a disaster of biblical proportion.

[Teamcheez1]

Fine as in competing for superbowl? Or what is your guess? I may have been over reacting but I thought the loss was a disaster of biblical proportion.

I think the 48-3 loss to a Kyle Boller led Ravens in 2005 on Monday Night Football was a disaster of biblical proportions. We could have hung around in this game if we played even just a little better

[wist43]

This is McGinn's article that Max posted in the other thread... don't know what McGinn was looking at, as we only ran 1 play the entire game with 4 down linemen. Whereas, he writes:

"Although the Packers were in their traditional 3-4 defense on the Seahawks' first play from scrimmage, they used a 4-3 most of the time as their base look."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/273960821.html

By definition, a 4-3 requires 4 players to have their hands in the dirt - that only happened 1 time during the game. The rest of the alignments were 2-4, or 2-5 (as Max said in the other thread).

I did not pay attention to who was lurking behind the LOS, only the DL alignment. By definition, we were in the 2-4 more often than not, although some of the plays I assigned to being a 2-4, may in fact have been 2-5. As I said, I did not count back end defenders.

Also, there were a couple of times I did notice that we were in a Dime, but the front was 2-2, i.e. 2 down linemen, and the outside rushers standing up - characteristic of the 2-4, so I just lumped them in with the 2-4 plays.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bottom line is, the Packers have jettisoned all of their genuine 3-4 defensive linemen - whom they either didn't use, or misused last year anyway; and in place of running a 3-4, they have thrown together a mess. A mess predicated on having excellent LB's, when the reality is that we have 1 very good LB (Matthews), 1 very good player transitioning to LB (Peppers), and a whole bunch of junk after that.

Why in heavens name TT would sign off on this is beyond me - unless of course he simply cannot properly evaluate ILB play. He wasn't a very good LB in his playing days - maybe he thought he was, and he's trying to find players that played like he did??

Whatever is going on - the Packer defense has been complete junk for 3 years running, and only seems to have gotten worse with horrid coaching and terrible personnel decisions made by TT.

In the mean time - Rodgers tenure is on the clock, and 2014 is going to be another wasted year.

[pbmax]

You can run a 4-3 without four DOWN lineman. One of them can be an elephant position in a two point stance. But their depth, gap and assignment will tell you whether its a 4-3, 3-4 or hybrid (doing some of each from same alignment).

I have to rewatch to see it. But from Thompson, McCarthy and Capers comments, they are running a 4-3 with an Elephant end and substituting Neal/Peppers for Guion in nickel and dime from what little I have interpolated.

[wist43]

You can run a 4-3 without four DOWN lineman. One of them can be an elephant position in a two point stance. But their depth, gap and assignment will tell you whether its a 4-3, 3-4 or hybrid (doing some of each from same alignment).

I have to rewatch to see it. But from Thompson, McCarthy and Capers comments, they are running a 4-3 with an Elephant end and substituting Neal/Peppers for Guion in nickel and dime from what little I have interpolated.

Well, if we're going to say that 3 down linemen is a 4-3, then why have any designation at all?? Just call it a bunch of guys on defense - defense!!

They haven't created a 4-3, or a 3-4, or a hybrid anything... they've simply created a huge mess.

If you think what Capers and the brain trust are doing is viable - then they are certainly your guys. The players are miscast for what the coaching staff is asking of them, they looked confused and out of sync, and they sounded completely demoralized after the game - predictably so.

That is not coaching - that is throwing a bunch of eggs on the floor and calling it an omelet.

[pbmax]

I think running a 4-3 is viable given the Packers lineman. I am not sure they have the backers for it. Hawk is no MLB and I am not sure Jones is a Sam.

But put that aside for a minute. I haven't watched the film so it could have been some hybrid deal.

If your elephant is in the 9 gap, a 2 point stance makes little difference as even with a TE, no one is getting a direct shot at you unlike a NT, DT or 5 gap power end.

But having only seen the write-ups and a few plays, its hard to say.

[George Cumby]

The discussion on alignment is interesting, to be sure, but to some degree moot as the fundamentals are so poor. And poor fundamentals fall solely on the coaches' shoulders.

[smuggler]

McGinn is horse shit, as usual.

[pbmax]

McGinn is horse shit, as usual.

In this case its not just him. McCarthy commented on it like it was fait accompli and so other writers have reported in a similar vein.

I think they got some wind of this during the offseason.

[gbgary]

Fine as in competing for superbowl? Or what is your guess? I may have been over reacting but I thought the loss was a disaster of biblical proportion.

yup. we're a top 4 team in our conference. a lot of overreaction everywhere...twitter, blogs, talk shows. i think the 4-3 thing was just for this game...or for anyone using the read-option. it was just a set-up, a bad, no-win situation from the get-go.

[wist43]

yup. we're a top 4 team in our conference. a lot of overreaction everywhere...twitter, blogs, talk shows.

Wake up chuggin kool-aid this am??

How in heavens name are we a top 4 team in the conference?? We're 9-11-1 in our last 20 games - Rodgers being out be damned, we're just not that good.

Seattle is light years better; and San Francisco has come back to us a bit with the losses on defense, but they are still better than we are; New Orleans is better; Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

The Lions completely embarrassed us last year 40-10... I don't care if Rodgers was out or not, a good team finds a way to at least compete; and I'm sorry, I hate the Bears too, but they are probably better than we are too.

That puts us at being competetive in the middle of the NFC.

That is what our record indicates, that is what our pathetic defense indicates, that is what our head scratching GM and coaching decisions indicate. We're simply not as good as Packer fans want to think we are. You guys are riding on the coat tails of a good run 3-4 years ago, and the fact that we have a franchise QB.

NFL games are won in the trenches, and the Packers are horrid on both the offensive and defensive lines. I think we had some good DL talent, but the cast off any run defenders we had on the roster, and of course dunderdummy is our DC and is committed to misusing everyone.

No, you're on drugs if you think the Packers are a legit SB contender. I think we have the talent to be that good, and I think MM will round the offense into decent form; but I view the defense as being completely hopeless.

I had higher hopes a few weeks ago... hopes that MM would force Capers into actually doing his job - but alas, the Seattle game showed that very little has changed - and what has changed has been for the worse... as if that were possible.

As good as our offense can be, there is no way the Packers can be considered a legit contender as long as dunderdummy is our DC, and the organization continues to believe that gimmicks on defense is a substitute for playing solid, fundamental football.

[Pugger]

The Bears? :lol: I know you hate our defense but their defense is worse than ours.

[Rutnstrut]

Wake up chuggin kool-aid this am??

How in heavens name are we a top 4 team in the conference?? We're 9-11-1 in our last 20 games - Rodgers being out be damned, we're just not that good.

Seattle is light years better; and San Francisco has come back to us a bit with the losses on defense, but they are still better than we are; New Orleans is better; Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

The Lions completely embarrassed us last year 40-10... I don't care if Rodgers was out or not, a good team finds a way to at least compete; and I'm sorry, I hate the Bears too, but they are probably better than we are too.

That puts us at being competetive in the middle of the NFC.

That is what our record indicates, that is what our pathetic defense indicates, that is what our head scratching GM and coaching decisions indicate. We're simply not as good as Packer fans want to think we are. You guys are riding on the coat tails of a good run 3-4 years ago, and the fact that we have a franchise QB.

NFL games are won in the trenches, and the Packers are horrid on both the offensive and defensive lines. I think we had some good DL talent, but the cast off any run defenders we had on the roster, and of course dunderdummy is our DC and is committed to misusing everyone.

No, you're on drugs if you think the Packers are a legit SB contender. I think we have the talent to be that good, and I think MM will round the offense into decent form; but I view the defense as being completely hopeless.

I had higher hopes a few weeks ago... hopes that MM would force Capers into actually doing his job - but alas, the Seattle game showed that very little has changed - and what has changed has been for the worse... as if that were possible.

As good as our offense can be, there is no way the Packers can be considered a legit contender as long as dunderdummy is our DC, and the organization continues to believe that gimmicks on defense is a substitute for playing solid, fundamental football.

Wist, I really like that you tell it like it is. Too bad most on here can't handle it.

[Rutnstrut]

people are overreacting i think. the nfl fucked us again with the hardest match-up right out of the gate. a game you can't game plan for against the best, most unpredictable, team in the league. we'll be fine.

That's a piss poor whiners excuse, if the pack is as good as everyone here claims, they should be able to be competitive with the best any time anywhere.

[pbmax]

The 9-11 metric is as bad a measure of this team's quality as any other devised by the criminally insane or Bears fans.

If you expect Rodgers to miss 40% of the next 14 games, speak up.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Wake up chuggin kool-aid this am??

How in heavens name are we a top 4 team in the conference?? We're 9-11-1 in our last 20 games - Rodgers being out be damned, we're just not that good.

Seattle is light years better; and San Francisco has come back to us a bit with the losses on defense, but they are still better than we are; New Orleans is better; Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

The Lions completely embarrassed us last year 40-10... I don't care if Rodgers was out or not, a good team finds a way to at least compete; and I'm sorry, I hate the Bears too, but they are probably better than we are too.

That puts us at being competetive in the middle of the NFC.

That is what our record indicates, that is what our pathetic defense indicates, that is what our head scratching GM and coaching decisions indicate. We're simply not as good as Packer fans want to think we are. You guys are riding on the coat tails of a good run 3-4 years ago, and the fact that we have a franchise QB.

NFL games are won in the trenches, and the Packers are horrid on both the offensive and defensive lines. I think we had some good DL talent, but the cast off any run defenders we had on the roster, and of course dunderdummy is our DC and is committed to misusing everyone.

No, you're on drugs if you think the Packers are a legit SB contender. I think we have the talent to be that good, and I think MM will round the offense into decent form; but I view the defense as being completely hopeless.

I had higher hopes a few weeks ago... hopes that MM would force Capers into actually doing his job - but alas, the Seattle game showed that very little has changed - and what has changed has been for the worse... as if that were possible.

As good as our offense can be, there is no way the Packers can be considered a legit contender as long as dunderdummy is our DC, and the organization continues to believe that gimmicks on defense is a substitute for playing solid, fundamental football.

Got to say I agree with you on this. Usually you are way to negative for me, but realistically I would say we are somewhere in the middle. I see the Hawks, Saints, and 49ers as clearly better teams and I see the Bears, Lions, Eagles, Falcons, and Redskins as teams that will be a lot better than last year. I think the Panthers will suck though. So the very best we are number 4, but could be as low as 9.

I think TT should be held accountable for his drafts since 2010. He has been missing and missing early. While teams like the 49ers and Seahawks are hitting on all top picks and finding studs in the later rounds. Seattle for example has drafted Chancellor, Sherman, Lane, Maxwell, kj wight, Bladwin, Wilson, and most of there oline in the 3rd round or later. The Packers in the meanwhile have drafted Bulaga, Sherrod, and Jones in the first and they all haven't played the way you expect first rounders to play.

Plain and simple we can complain about Capers (and we should bc he sucks), but we just simply aren't as talented as the elite teams in the league. I hate to even think about the teams TT would be fielding had he not drafted Rodgers with his first pick.

[wist43]

The 9-11 metric is as bad a measure of this team's quality as any other devised by the criminally insane or Bears fans.

If you expect Rodgers to miss 40% of the next 14 games, speak up.

We were 27th in run defense, 25th in defense... Capers is a gimmick DC, and what we got in the opener was more of the same. Those are just facts.

We can compete with anyone on offense... and I have faith that MM will get the offense straightened out, but the defense simply is not championship calibur.

It is what it is... hopefully, Capers will be shown the door at years end.

[wist43]

The Bears? :lol: I know you hate our defense but their defense is worse than ours.

Well, between us and the Bears?? It's a race to the bottom... we are bad, bad, bad - guess it just depends on what flavor of bad you like ;)

[Rutnstrut]

The 9-11 metric is as bad a measure of this team's quality as any other devised by the criminally insane or Bears fans.

If you expect Rodgers to miss 40% of the next 14 games, speak up.

I don't know about 40%, but I would be surprised if he doesn't miss a game or two this season.

[wist43]

I don't know about 40%, but I would be surprised if he doesn't miss a game or two this season.

I didn't look at the offense that much, but I didn't notice any power running plays... if that is the case, then it would seem MM has reverted to his nature, i.e. reducing his run play list to his default 3 plays. Student body right, left, and middle.

With no run to respect, defenses will be teeing off on Rodgers - if that is the case?? Yes, Rodgers will end up missing time.

[Rutnstrut]

I didn't look at the offense that much, but I didn't notice any power running plays... if that is the case, then it would seem MM has reverted to his nature, i.e. reducing his run play list to his default 3 plays. Student body right, left, and middle.

With no run to respect, defenses will be teeing off on Rodgers - if that is the case?? Yes, Rodgers will end up missing time.

Exactly, Stubby as usual will be Mr.predictable,

[Joemailman]

Wake up chuggin kool-aid this am??

How in heavens name are we a top 4 team in the conference?? We're 9-11-1 in our last 20 games - Rodgers being out be damned, we're just not that good.

Seattle is light years better; and San Francisco has come back to us a bit with the losses on defense, but they are still better than we are; New Orleans is better; Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

[/B]

Saints gave up 37 points and 568 yards. It wasn't 579 yards but still... I guess you can cross them off your list. ;)

[Striker]

Wake up chuggin kool-aid this am??

How in heavens name are we a top 4 team in the conference?? We're 9-11-1 in our last 20 games - Rodgers being out be damned, we're just not that good.

Seattle is light years better; and San Francisco has come back to us a bit with the losses on defense, but they are still better than we are; New Orleans is better; Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

The Lions completely embarrassed us last year 40-10... I don't care if Rodgers was out or not, a good team finds a way to at least compete; and I'm sorry, I hate the Bears too, but they are probably better than we are too.

That puts us at being competetive in the middle of the NFC.

That is what our record indicates, that is what our pathetic defense indicates, that is what our head scratching GM and coaching decisions indicate. We're simply not as good as Packer fans want to think we are. You guys are riding on the coat tails of a good run 3-4 years ago, and the fact that we have a franchise QB.

NFL games are won in the trenches, and the Packers are horrid on both the offensive and defensive lines. I think we had some good DL talent, but the cast off any run defenders we had on the roster, and of course dunderdummy is our DC and is committed to misusing everyone.

No, you're on drugs if you think the Packers are a legit SB contender. I think we have the talent to be that good, and I think MM will round the offense into decent form; but I view the defense as being completely hopeless.

I had higher hopes a few weeks ago... hopes that MM would force Capers into actually doing his job - but alas, the Seattle game showed that very little has changed - and what has changed has been for the worse... as if that were possible.

As good as our offense can be, there is no way the Packers can be considered a legit contender as long as dunderdummy is our DC, and the organization continues to believe that gimmicks on defense is a substitute for playing solid, fundamental football.

The only team that is "light years better" right now is Seattle. And this is the Packers playing possibly the worst football they can.

The Saints? Umm, yeah. Their vastly improved defense just had Atlanta move almost at will against them. The 49ers aren't going to be the powerhouse they normally are.

The Panthers offense is stipped. Philly "destroyed" us with Tolzien at the helm. And I think their offense and Foles is going to be a bit less effective this season.

The Bears? Yeah. Cutler is still their QB. And the Lions, despite destroying the inept Flynn led Packers, couldn't seize control of the division either.

I know it's trendy to be a front runner off the bandwagon, but jeez man.

[Joemailman]

The only team that is "light years better" right now is Seattle. And this is the Packers playing possibly the worst football they can.

The Saints? Umm, yeah. Their vastly improved defense just had Atlanta move almost at will against them. The 49ers aren't going to be the powerhouse they normally are.

The Panthers offense is stipped. Philly "destroyed" us with Tolzien at the helm. And I think their offense and Foles is going to be a bit less effective this season.

The Bears? Yeah. Cutler is still their QB. And the Lions, despite destroying the inept Flynn led Packers, couldn't seize control of the division either.

I know it's trendy to be a front runner off the bandwagon, but jeez man.

That's unfair. Wist has never been on the bandwagon.

[wist43]

That's unfair. Wist has never been on the bandwagon.

Thank you Joe... I resemble that remark :)

[wist43]

The only team that is "light years better" right now is Seattle. And this is the Packers playing possibly the worst football they can.

The Saints? Umm, yeah. Their vastly improved defense just had Atlanta move almost at will against them. The 49ers aren't going to be the powerhouse they normally are.

The Panthers offense is stipped. Philly "destroyed" us with Tolzien at the helm. And I think their offense and Foles is going to be a bit less effective this season.

The Bears? Yeah. Cutler is still their QB. And the Lions, despite destroying the inept Flynn led Packers, couldn't seize control of the division either.

I know it's trendy to be a front runner off the bandwagon, but jeez man.

For the most part - I don't care how many yds someone else gives up... more than likely they have competent coaches that will address those issues. The Packers?? No, dunderdummy will continue to flail around with his gimmicks and exotic looks, all the while his perpetually young defenders are in a complete daze.

There is a complete disconnect between TT and dunderdummy, and dunderdummy and the players.

I think other coaches are smart enough to realize what their players strengths and weaknesses are, and will adjust accordingly; while dunderdummy is completely obtuse to designing his defense to his players strengths.

New Orleans may have given up a lot of yds today, but I have absolutely faith in Rob Ryan - whereas I have absolutely no faith in dunderdummy. There is no excuse, absolutely no excuse whatsoever for what dunderdummy has been doing for 3+ years.

Dunderdummy is hands down the worst def. coordinator in the league.

[Zool]

Carolina is better; Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...

The Lions completely embarrassed us last year 40-10... I don't care if Rodgers was out or not, a good team finds a way to at least compete; and I'm sorry, I hate the Bears too, but they are probably better than we are too.


The first few yes, NO maybe, but these no. That's just trying to seem smarter than everyone else by yelling the loudest.

[Guiness]

I think running a 4-3 is viable given the Packers lineman. I am not sure they have the backers for it. Hawk is no MLB and I am not sure Jones is a Sam.

But put that aside for a minute. I haven't watched the film so it could have been some hybrid deal.

If your elephant is in the 9 gap, a 2 point stance makes little difference as even with a TE, no one is getting a direct shot at you unlike a NT, DT or 5 gap power end.

But having only seen the write-ups and a few plays, its hard to say.

Are you saying if they have a DE/OLB (Neale or Peppers) lined up on wide on the line, in a 2 point stance, that counts as a DL? Not sure I buy that.

[pbmax]

Are you saying if they have a DE/OLB (Neale or Peppers) lined up on wide on the line, in a 2 point stance, that counts as a DL? Not sure I buy that.

Not sure how wide you mean by your wide, but yes it changes things.

Its dependent on alignment (and I still haven't reviewed the game) but if that player is attacking the LOS and with no coverage responsibilities (unless zone blitz) then yes, he is behaving like a lineman. The stance might be an issue, but its less of an issue wide.

Remember the argument against the 2-4 nickel and dime is that its vulnerable to the run in the middle due to size. Replacing Matthews and Perry with Neal and Peppers is a size increase that offsets the lost size of a NT. Each guy wist wanted to put on the field in his 3-3 nickel was a 280-285 pound guy so that you could have beef and a little pass rush.

[Guiness]

Not sure how wide you mean by your wide, but yes it changes things.

Its dependent on alignment (and I still haven't reviewed the game) but if that player is attacking the LOS and with no coverage responsibilities (unless zone blitz) then yes, he is behaving like a lineman. The stance might be an issue, but its less of an issue wide.

Remember the argument against the 2-4 nickel and dime is that its vulnerable to the run in the middle due to size. Replacing Matthews and Perry with Neal and Peppers is a size increase that offsets the lost size of a NT. Each guy wist wanted to put on the field in his 3-3 nickel was a 280-285 pound guy so that you could have beef and a little pass rush.

Wide as in the 9 alignment (outside shoulder of TE). I tend to think if he's that wide and standing up, I don't care if it's Howard Greene, he's an LB, not a DL.

[ThunderDan]

Philadelphia is probably better - they certainly kicked the crap out of us last year in Lambeau...


I want to address this point directly. Philadelphia did not kick the crap out of us last year. They barely beat the Pack. I was at the game.

The end score was 27-13 I believe. Two of PHI TDs that game were pure luck. The perfect example was the DeSean Jackson TD. Two Packers are going to intercept the ball, the two players collide, the ball hits the Packers player's shoulder pads and bounces straight to Jackson who walks into the end zone. After that play I turned to my wife and said there is no way we are going to win if the other team gets breaks like that. And they did later in the game on Cooper's TD.

Now the Pack O was "passable" but it was the Seneca Wallace gets hurt game and Tolzien had to come off the bench to run the O and threw two picks.

[3irty1]

I understand the Packers need to take desperate measures in order to avoid injury but should we be surprised that our starters miss this many tackles when the only contact they get before week 1 comes from a handful of reps in the preseason? This may just be a tradeoff that MM is willing to make in his preparation.

I'm always hesitant to blame playcalling because its usually and exercise in hindsight but there were some calls of Capers's that I just can't wrap my head around. We gave a 6 man front to some balanced sets in short yardage situations. I'm not sure we even have the horses to adequately challenge that kind of look with a 7 man front. Taking into account the mobility of their QB and he factors into the headcount, we were asking an awful lot of our guys in those situations. This defense does look like they'll be lights out against the pass though. The other Jones played alright, he was easily our best lineman which is nice to see. Burnett secretly had a decent day. Haha was in position to miss a lot of plays but it seems like he's got the hard part down. Firing Capers and executing Brad Jones are pretty drastic moves, but giving the playcalling duties to Winston Moss and sprinkling in some contact drill in practice might make this defense only half bad. It sure would be nice to get a thorn in the middle of this D like Seattle has but the way the draft and FA shook out I'm not sure who that would have been. Now that the safety and OLB positions seem patched up ILB is clearly the most pressing need of the team.

[wist43]

Not sure how wide you mean by your wide, but yes it changes things.

Its dependent on alignment (and I still haven't reviewed the game) but if that player is attacking the LOS and with no coverage responsibilities (unless zone blitz) then yes, he is behaving like a lineman. The stance might be an issue, but its less of an issue wide.

Remember the argument against the 2-4 nickel and dime is that its vulnerable to the run in the middle due to size. Replacing Matthews and Perry with Neal and Peppers is a size increase that offsets the lost size of a NT. Each guy wist wanted to put on the field in his 3-3 nickel was a 280-285 pound guy so that you could have beef and a little pass rush.

If you're going to go to a nickel in an either/or, down/distance situation - the jumbo nickel is idiotic, and it didn't stop either the run or the pass - for very logical reasons. Logical reasons that were completely lost on dunderdummy.

As for my dreamed of 3-3, I don't want any of the down linemen lined up outside the tackles, I think the alignment is best served with those down linemen lined up inside the tackles - there may be exceptions to that of course, depending on opponent, but for the most part it makes the most sense to have a stout, gap penetrating presence on the LOS.

That's probably dunderdummy's biggest flaw - he cares nothing about controlling the LOS, and it shows as we repeatedly get run over, and rarely generate pressure up the middle.

You can do a lot from that alignment. You can have your OLB's playing outside the T's and providing outside pass rush and setting the edge against the run, while roaming another guy along the line, be it Matthews, Neal, or Mulumba; or you can run a wide variety of stunts, blitizes, drops, and zone blitzes out of that alignment.

Call it exotic but sound - what Capers does is exotic and unsound; very, very unsound.

It affords a lot more flexibility, and offers better size/mobility/athleticism in your front. You can play a much more penetrating style, as opposed anything dunderdummy has been throwing out there for the past 3+ years.

And as an added bonus?? It gets either Hawk or Jones off the field - or both of them off the field!!! :)

[pbmax]

Wide as in the 9 alignment (outside shoulder of TE). I tend to think if he's that wide and standing up, I don't care if it's Howard Greene, he's an LB, not a DL.

Well, we have a hole in the nomenclature that can only be closed by looking at responsibilities.

If you think DL stands for Down Lineman and LB stands for Line Backer, then what do you call a standing lineman? Packers called him Elephant in camp.

If you think DL stands for Defensive Lineman, then there isn't a nomenclature problem at all.

[wist43]

The first few yes, NO maybe, but these no. That's just trying to seem smarter than everyone else by yelling the loudest.


I want to address this point directly. Philadelphia did not kick the crap out of us last year. They barely beat the Pack. I was at the game.

The end score was 27-13 I believe. Two of PHI TDs that game were pure luck. The perfect example was the DeSean Jackson TD. Two Packers are going to intercept the ball, the two players collide, the ball hits the Packers player's shoulder pads and bounces straight to Jackson who walks into the end zone. After that play I turned to my wife and said there is no way we are going to win if the other team gets breaks like that. And they did later in the game on Cooper's TD.

Now the Pack O was "passable" but it was the Seneca Wallace gets hurt game and Tolzien had to come off the bench to run the O and threw two picks.

Carolina was 12-4 last year - with a super-stout defense. I'm beginning to think Packer fans have been so seduced by "elite QB syndrome", and watching dunderdummy's "let's hope for a turnover defense", that you guys dismiss solid, punt producing defense as being so 1920's.

You've seen what outstanding defense does to Aaron Rodgers and our offense - Carolina's defense is certainly good enough to bitch slap our offense - just like SF and Seattle have been doing.

As for Philly... I think their offense is on a par with ours - and they do actually play a little defense, whereas we play none. Both teams at full strength?? It's probably a 50/50... also, Philly was just finding themselves under a new coach, with a different type of philosophy. It took them a while to find their bearings.

Detroit?? Their DL smacks the shit out of our OL every time we play... if they had any DB's at all... they would be the favorite to win the division. And Chicago is slightly below us IMO, but not by much... and they certainly can knock us off on any given Sunday.

The bottom line is, with no defense, and with our predictable cement-shoed OL start... we're no better than middle of the pack right now.

[3irty1]

If you're going to go to a nickel in an either/or, down/distance situation - the jumbo nickel is idiotic, and it didn't stop either the run or the pass - for very logical reasons. Logical reasons that were completely lost on dunderdummy.

As for my dreamed of 3-3, I don't want any of the down linemen lined up outside the tackles, I think the alignment is best served with those down linemen lined up inside the tackles - there may be exceptions to that of course, depending on opponent, but for the most part it makes the most sense to have a stout, gap penetrating presence on the LOS.

That's probably dunderdummy's biggest flaw - he cares nothing about controlling the LOS, and it shows as we repeatedly get run over, and rarely generate pressure up the middle.

You can do a lot from that alignment. You can have your OLB's playing outside the T's and providing outside pass rush and setting the edge against the run, while roaming another guy along the line, be it Matthews, Neal, or Mulumba; or you can run a wide variety of stunts, blitizes, drops, and zone blitzes out of that alignment.

Call it exotic but sound - what Capers does is exotic and unsound; very, very unsound.

It affords a lot more flexibility, and offers better size/mobility/athleticism in your front. You can play a much more penetrating style, as opposed anything dunderdummy has been throwing out there for the past 3+ years.

And as an added bonus?? It gets either Hawk or Jones off the field - or both of them off the field!!! :)

Most 3-3's I've seen would keep the equivalent of Hawk and Jones on the field since those positions are still read and react type roles. If the tradeoff is ultimately to take Matthews off the edge in order to get Hawk or Jones off the field then you can do that from a 2-4 or 4-2 as well especially with all the OLB/DE types we've got. So why specifically the 3-3?

[pbmax]

I understand the Packers need to take desperate measures in order to avoid injury but should we be surprised that our starters miss this many tackles when the only contact they get before week 1 comes from a handful of reps in the preseason? This may just be a tradeoff that MM is willing to make in his preparation.

I'm always hesitant to blame playcalling because its usually and exercise in hindsight but there were some calls of Capers's that I just can't wrap my head around. We gave a 6 man front to some balanced sets in short yardage situations. I'm not sure we even have the horses to adequately challenge that kind of look with a 7 man front. Taking into account the mobility of their QB and he factors into the headcount, we were asking an awful lot of our guys in those situations. This defense does look like they'll be lights out against the pass though. The other Jones played alright, he was easily our best lineman which is nice to see. Burnett secretly had a decent day. Haha was in position to miss a lot of plays but it seems like he's got the hard part down. Firing Capers and executing Brad Jones are pretty drastic moves, but giving the playcalling duties to Winston Moss and sprinkling in some contact drill in practice might make this defense only half bad. It sure would be nice to get a thorn in the middle of this D like Seattle has but the way the draft and FA shook out I'm not sure who that would have been. Now that the safety and OLB positions seem patched up ILB is clearly the most pressing need of the team.

I don't think the Packers went light on D lineman because they feared the passing attack or doubted the backend. They went light because they feared the speed with Harvin as the 3rd WR and Wilson.

So they play the new 4-2 nickel a lot and try to match quickness for quickness. Sometimes it works. But far too often it failed on the misdirection and sweeps.

Some of that I blame on the first game. Seattle got to rollout a bunch of new stuff with Harvin. And in that alignment, you are going to have trouble with Lynch.

But Lynch's yardage doesn't bother me as much as the fact that the new speed didn't make more of a dent in Seattle's ability to get the edge and break big plays. That plus penalty-fest hurt them a lot.

The one thing I liked, other than having mostly functional safeties, was the pass rush seemed a bit more threatening.

[3irty1]

I don't think the Packers went light on D lineman because they feared the passing attack or doubted the backend. They went light because they feared the speed with Harvin as the 3rd WR and Wilson.

So they play the new 4-2 nickel a lot and try to match quickness for quickness. Sometimes it works. But far too often it failed on the misdirection and sweeps.

Some of that I blame on the first game. Seattle got to rollout a bunch of new stuff with Harvin. And in that alignment, you are going to have trouble with Lynch.

But Lynch's yardage doesn't bother me as much as the fact that the new speed didn't make more of a dent in Seattle's ability to get the edge and break big plays. That plus penalty-fest hurt them a lot.

The one thing I liked, other than having mostly functional safeties, was the pass rush seemed a bit more threatening.

There's not enough speed in the world to make up for being frozen by misdirection. Maybe its lack of instincts or lack of preparation but I think the better call would have been to take away at least one thing instead of putting up a flimsy defense against everything.

[wist43]

I understand the Packers need to take desperate measures in order to avoid injury but should we be surprised that our starters miss this many tackles when the only contact they get before week 1 comes from a handful of reps in the preseason? This may just be a tradeoff that MM is willing to make in his preparation.

I'm always hesitant to blame playcalling because its usually and exercise in hindsight but there were some calls of Capers's that I just can't wrap my head around. We gave a 6 man front to some balanced sets in short yardage situations. I'm not sure we even have the horses to adequately challenge that kind of look with a 7 man front. Taking into account the mobility of their QB and he factors into the headcount, we were asking an awful lot of our guys in those situations. This defense does look like they'll be lights out against the pass though. The other Jones played alright, he was easily our best lineman which is nice to see. Burnett secretly had a decent day. Haha was in position to miss a lot of plays but it seems like he's got the hard part down. Firing Capers and executing Brad Jones are pretty drastic moves, but giving the playcalling duties to Winston Moss and sprinkling in some contact drill in practice might make this defense only half bad. It sure would be nice to get a thorn in the middle of this D like Seattle has but the way the draft and FA shook out I'm not sure who that would have been. Now that the safety and OLB positions seem patched up ILB is clearly the most pressing need of the team.

Peppers is just a stop-gap... he'll be what?? 36 next year??

How much longer is Hawk under contract?? And as much as we hate Jones - the Packers brain trust loves the guy. He is in the last year of his contract, yes?? Don't be surprised if they re-up him again!!!

As for the line... they had a good line last year, and they didn't use them, or misused them. Now this year, they boot all of their run-stuffing 3-4 lineman, and all we're left with is undersized, penetration guys - which screams 4-3. As a result, we got steamrolled for 207 yds on the ground in the opener!!!

The Packers brain trust has had years to create this mess. TT/MM/Dunderdummy... they put their collective heads together and this is what they've given us - after the mess they gave us the past 3 years. At some point you have to conclude, this is what they perceive as being the right approach to playing defense.

Obviously they are smoking crack.

[wist43]

I don't think the Packers went light on D lineman because they feared the passing attack or doubted the backend. They went light because they feared the speed with Harvin as the 3rd WR and Wilson.

So they play the new 4-2 nickel a lot and try to match quickness for quickness. Sometimes it works. But far too often it failed on the misdirection and sweeps.

Some of that I blame on the first game. Seattle got to rollout a bunch of new stuff with Harvin. And in that alignment, you are going to have trouble with Lynch.

But Lynch's yardage doesn't bother me as much as the fact that the new speed didn't make more of a dent in Seattle's ability to get the edge and break big plays. That plus penalty-fest hurt them a lot.

The one thing I liked, other than having mostly functional safeties, was the pass rush seemed a bit more threatening.

Why do you keep saying we played a 4-anything???!!!

We're back to this - why have any designation at all??

We had 4 down linemen on the field 1 time in the Seattle game - 1 time.

All the rest was either 2-4, 2-5, a little 3-4, and a little Elephant/Amoeba. The Elephant is not a 4-anything. If anything, if there are 5 DB's on the field - it is a 3-3. If it is base, it is more of a 3-4.

In no way are the Packers running a 4-anything.

[pbmax]

There's not enough speed in the world to make up for being frozen by misdirection. Maybe its lack of instincts or lack of preparation but I think the better call would have been to take away at least one thing instead of putting up a flimsy defense against everything.

That is the one big question I have for Dom. You are debuting a new D alignment. Its not a revolution, you have been playing a nickel 4-3 alignment under with 3-4 personnel for 4 years now. But you are using it for base as well if reporters can be believed.

Is that the time to go unconventional with the Actives?

[Guiness]

Well, we have a hole in the nomenclature that can only be closed by looking at responsibilities.

If you think DL stands for Down Lineman and LB stands for Line Backer, then what do you call a standing lineman? Packers called him Elephant in camp.

If you think DL stands for Defensive Lineman, then there isn't a nomenclature problem at all.

I equate 'Elephant' with being a DL/LB Hybrid, to you think of it similarly? And DL is Defensive Lineman.

So how do you classify the Elephant on any given play? Are you 3-4 or 4-3 when Peppers is essentially standing up across from the guy in the slot? It might be as you said, it come down to his assignment.

[3irty1]

Peppers is just a stop-gap... he'll be what?? 36 next year??

How much longer is Hawk under contract?? And as much as we hate Jones - the Packers brain trust loves the guy. He is in the last year of his contract, yes?? Don't be surprised if they re-up him again!!!

As for the line... they had a good line last year, and they didn't use them, or misused them. Now this year, they boot all of their run-stuffing 3-4 lineman, and all we're left with is undersized, penetration guys - which screams 4-3. As a result, we got steamrolled for 207 yds on the ground in the opener!!!

The Packers brain trust has had years to create this mess. TT/MM/Dunderdummy... they put their collective heads together and this is what they've given us - after the mess they gave us the past 3 years. At some point you have to conclude, this is what they perceive as being the right approach to playing defense.

Obviously they are smoking crack.

Peppers will be 35 next year I believe. I'm also not sure he'll follow normal aging rules being a freak and all. But stop-gap isn't really the right word, signing him for the contract he got was a deal too good to pass on. Its not like they'd have been in on the bidding with Allen or Ware if Peppers didn't work out. He's just an opportunity.

Both ILB are signed through 2015. But neither make much on team friendly contracts so its not the money that's keeping them around. Hawk I'm fine with because I've really grown to appreciate his durability on a defense of glass dolls but I'd be plenty surprised to see Jones extended based on his availability and lack of progress at the position. These guys aren't paid on commission, Jones was signed based on his fill-in performance in 2012 and hasn't built on or even sustained that level of play. Take solace in the fact that after Bulaga, Jones is a virtual lock to miss time. Maybe one of his backups can finally outplay him because I'm pretty sure there are people sitting at home who could have on Thursday.

Those smaller DL guys don't scream 4-3 they scream 1-gap. A 1-gapping 3-4 scheme should suit them just fine.

[pbmax]

I equate 'Elephant' with being a DL/LB Hybrid, to you think of it similarly? And DL is Defensive Lineman.

So how do you classify the Elephant on any given play? Are you 3-4 or 4-3 when Peppers is essentially standing up across from the guy in the slot? It might be as you said, it come down to his assignment.

It depends on what they are asked to do. You can say Elephant is a hybrid position, but if they only have responsibilities for the LOS, then the LB part of the hybrid really doesn't apply.

[pbmax]

If you want an argument that the Defense needs to get used to the new defense (alignment), and then will get better, here is your first argument:


“It made me late getting the call on the field because I was trying to match the personnel up. We had a number of different personnel groups. Because we were late [on those] two or three calls there, we went into halftime and adjusted and played one personnel group a little bit more consistently in the second half.”

Some of that second half performance (and a couple of blown plays in the first) can be attributed to trouble getting correct personnel on and off the field. Since Slocum is not on the D staff, I expect this will get fixed and being at home will help.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&id=15831&is_corp=1

[Bossman641]

For all the bitching about capers and the D, the players missed 18 tackles last Thursday. Tough to judge any scheme when you have basically a quarter season's worth of missed tackles in 1 game.

Oh ya, the Saints and their fundamentally sound scheme had 23 missed tackles last weekend.

[Fritz]

For all the bitching about capers and the D, the players missed 18 tackles last Thursday. Tough to judge any scheme when you have basically a quarter season's worth of missed tackles in 1 game.

Oh ya, the Saints and their fundamentally sound scheme had 23 missed tackles last weekend.


I have very mixed feelings about the root cause of the lousy, soft defensive performance. On the one hand, it seems to me that if you're on opposing OC, you'll do very well if you use a lot of misdirection. This game reminded me of the SF playoff game - players flowing one way, the ball going the other, and gaping holes for the guy with the ball. That, to me, is along the lines of a defensive coordinator's fault.

On the other hand, Capers seemed to put the defense in a position to make plays - how many times did you see Lynch get met in the backfield, only to have him run the guy over? Or how many times did you see a guy whiff on an arm tackle that would've kept Lynch to a two yard gain? How many times did Brad Jones fuck up what would've been a third down stop? How many times did you see a Packer defender not make the interception or not recover the fumble?

Surely he's teaching this shit. Please don't tell me he doesn't teach tackling. But the players are sucking at tackling and finishing plays. Why? We've been hearing about "fixing" this shit since 2011, and except for a brief stretch at the beginning of last season, there has been a stench on the defensive side of the ball.

I wonder sometimes if TT drafts guys that are too good of "Packer People." I don't want eleven thugs on the defensive side of the ball - that doesn't work - but I would like to see at least a couple guys that really bring it. Mean bastards. Like Wayne Simmons was.

I'm really disgusted with this defense. Really disgusted. I'm not giving up yet - it's only the first game, for gosh sakes - but so far this pattern of getting gashed and playing soft is just continuing, despite the changes supposedly made.

[Pugger]

After Sunday we'll be 0-2 so why should I bother watching?

[wist43]

Couple of quotes from this article...

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-defense-knows-it-will-be-better-b99346671z1-274428611.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

"'Let me first give you the positives,' Capers started on Monday.

He didn't speak for too long. Capers got into the negatives, and from tackling to communication breakdowns to missed opportunities, that list was painful."

----------------------------------------------------------------

"On Lynch's 9-yard touchdown run, the Packers had 10 players on the field. That's why the Packers scratched the 4-3 for their base 3-4 in the second half — Capers decided to let players play fast.

Green Bay also was in the 4-3 on Wilson's read-option, a 33-yard touchdown pass to Ricardo Lockette. On that backbreaking play, cornerback Sam Shields was correct in playing the run — Capers assured it was his job to contain Wilson the runner. But Clinton-Dix was then supposed to streak over to cover the pass.

Not ideal. The Seahawks caught Green Bay.

"It wasn't a good defense to be in for that play," Hyde said. "So it kind of messed us up a little bit. So you can just see, he can hand it off, he can keep it, he can pass it. There are so many elements you have to be aware about."

Eyes zeroed into the backfield pre-snap, Shields was responsible for the widest man on the field (Wilson), Clinton-Dix was late sliding over and then missed the open-field tackle, too."

----------------------------------------------------------------

"It wasn't a good defense to be in for that play..."??

Ya think??

Capers has gone completely stupid... of all the embarrassing plays from that game, that one has to stand out as an example of Capers throwing a defense out there that is fundamentally unsound.

What idiot would design a defense that allows a WR to run free off the line, with 20 yds of uncontested turf in front of him, while the QB is still behind the LOS?? With the expectation that a rookie S will cover 20 some yds of real estate, and be asked to make an open field tackle with no support inside or out??

Seriously, that is beyond unsound - that is stupid, stupid, stupid. You guys may bitch about the missed and broken tackles - but Capers is the one who put those guys in those bad positions.

Yes, most of the missed tackles are on the players, but a lot of that has to do with the DC not having the right players in the right positions to make plays.

The whole thing is a God-awful mess.

[wist43]

Here is a "chalk talk" of that play by Seattle's 710 ESPN analyst Brock Huard.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrjPc2p3G2A

That is called - being completely outcoached.

And notice he has it listed as a 3-4, i.e. an Elephant with Peppers as a LB - he has it listed that way, b/c that is what it is.

No wonder we can't play defense - those idiots we have coaching the defense don't even know a 3-4 from a 4-3, lol...

Wow, just wow!!! It's painful to watch and to think that is my team doing that idiotic shit!!!

[Maxie the Taxi]

I thought the emphasis this season on defense was supposed to be on simplicity. Still we're hearing Capers talking about "communication breakdowns" and his inability to get the right player groups into the game on time. Stubby said he was disappointed that the assistant coaches weren't operating efficiently. The players are talking about mistakes and needing "experience." ( "Gaining experience will help," Hyde said, "and making some mistakes. We made a lot of mistakes in Seattle, and we just have to learn from them.") Listening to Capers talk you almost have to be a Ph.D to follow him.

This all seems to me to indicate that either the new system is not as simple as advertised, or that the changeover from the old system has the players confused, or that the players are not able to "play fast" because they still feel unsure of their assignments. Maybe it's all of the above.

It all comes down to the coaches getting the players in position to succeed. Seattle coaches did. Green Bay coaches didn't.

[pbmax]

Yes, in the history of football no well designed defense has been caught by a play that left a rookie safety one on one with a WR.

Chris B. Brown @smartfootball · Sep 4
Seattle scored on the same concept Auburn scored a late TD on vs Alabama, with zone read, keep or throw downfield: http://i5.minus.com/ih3R8tYvXniXl.jpg …


Its football not The Battle for Europe. For every defensive call, whether you are Capers, Saban, Belichick or LeBeau, you can get pantsed by the right call.

[pbmax]

I thought the emphasis this season on defense was supposed to be on simplicity. Still we're hearing Capers talking about "communication breakdowns" and his inability to get the right player groups into the game on time. Stubby said he was disappointed that the assistant coaches weren't operating efficiently. The players are talking about mistakes and needing "experience." ( "Gaining experience will help," Hyde said, "and making some mistakes. We made a lot of mistakes in Seattle, and we just have to learn from them.") Listening to Capers talk you almost have to be a Ph.D to follow him.

This all seems to me to indicate that either the new system is not as simple as advertised, or that the changeover from the old system has the players confused, or that the players are not able to "play fast" because they still feel unsure of their assignments. Maybe it's all of the above.

It all comes down to the coaches getting the players in position to succeed. Seattle coaches did. Green Bay coaches didn't.

I agree with all of this, except simplicity in this case meant fewer fronts and formations. The only simplicity we know about seems to be technique assignments for the front 7. Otherwise, it looks the same. But I am not sure they promised more.

I also don't fully understand the communication problem from the first half. Capers D has often matched up personnel with nickel and dime. Was it just late Seattle subs that caused the problem? Was it the noise?

They do have players in new positions (Hayward is back, Hyde is at safety, rookie safety in Dix, Jones is a SAM now plus Peppers and Guion and Jones in base) so I do expect some growing pains.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Here's another eyeopener for me (http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/12874/packers-week-1-playing-time-breakdown):

Against Seattle, the Packer offense ran 62 plays. Basically 6 players (Rodgers, Bakhtiari, Lange, Linsley, Sitton and Nelson) played every offensive down (Jordy played 61). Bulaga would have played every down but was hurt. Sherrod played the downs Bulaga missed.

Randall Cobb played 57 offensive plays.

The remaining snaps (192) were spread out among 9 players, which is an average of 21 plays each. (Injuries to Richard Rodgers and Lacy accounted for some of this.)

Now look at the defense which was in there for 70 Seattle offensive plays:

Only 4 defensive Packers played all 70 defensive plays (Brad Jones, T. Williams, Shields, and Burnett).

Claymaker and Peppers played 66 and 59 plays respectively.

The remaining defensive snaps (364) were spread out among 10 players for an average of 36 snaps each.

A couple of things jump out at me immediately:

First, why is Brad Jones in there for every defensive play? (Lattimore and Barrington didn't play a single snap.)

Second, Capers is shuffling a lot of players on and off the field throughout the game. We've heard of running back "by committee." Capers is playing defense by committee.

My question and conclusion:

I think there is more consistency and less mistakes in the offense because Stubby fields his best core players the vast majority of the time.

On the other hand, Capers' defense suffers from many mistakes, communication errors and inconsistency because he doesn't have his best players on the field most of the time. (And he has Jones on the field all of the time.)

It's almost like Capers believes in his schemes and formations more than in his players.

Maybe it's time for Capers' to settle on 8 or 9 core players and let them play most of the game. He could still run varying formations and schemes, but there would be more consistency because it would be the same top players in there performing for him.

The bottom line for me is screw the fancy defenses. Play something simple and play it with your best eleven players on the field.

[wist43]

Here's another eyeopener for me (http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/12874/packers-week-1-playing-time-breakdown):

Against Seattle, the Packer offense ran 62 plays. Basically 6 players (Rodgers, Bakhtiari, Lange, Linsley, Sitton and Nelson) played every offensive down (Jordy played 61). Bulaga would have played every down but was hurt. Sherrod played the downs Bulaga missed.

Randall Cobb played 57 offensive plays.

The remaining snaps (192) were spread out among 9 players, which is an average of 21 plays each. (Injuries to Richard Rodgers and Lacy accounted for some of this.)

Now look at the defense which was in there for 70 Seattle offensive plays:

Only 4 defensive Packers played all 70 defensive plays (Brad Jones, T. Williams, Shields, and Burnett).

Claymaker and Peppers played 66 and 59 plays respectively.

The remaining defensive snaps (364) were spread out among 10 players for an average of 36 snaps each.

A couple of things jump out at me immediately:

First, why is Brad Jones in there for every defensive play? (Lattimore and Barrington didn't play a single snap.)

Second, Capers is shuffling a lot of players on and off the field throughout the game. We've heard of running back "by committee." Capers is playing defense by committee.

My question and conclusion:

I think there is more consistency and less mistakes in the offense because Stubby fields his best core players the vast majority of the time.

On the other hand, Capers' defense suffers from many mistakes, communication errors and inconsistency because he doesn't have his best players on the field most of the time. (And he has Jones on the field all of the time.)

It's almost like Capers believes in his schemes and formations more than in his players.

Maybe it's time for Capers' to settle on 8 or 9 core players and let them play most of the game. He could still run varying formations and schemes, but there would be more consistency because it would be the same top players in there performing for him.

The bottom line for me is screw the fancy defenses. Play something simple and play it with your best eleven players on the field.

Good post Maxi... I agree, with the perpetual youth movement - there are simply too many moving parts, too many calls, too many alignments.

The miscommunication, missed assignments, players out of position... you would think the Packer braintrust would figure this stuff out, but we have years worth of evidence that says they are blind to the fact that perpetual youth requires some accomadation in how the defense can function.

[pbmax]

Based on Pro Football Focus numbers:

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 11h
Based on @PFF numbers, #Packers defense missed 18 tackles [Thursday]. Rest of NFC North combined for 16.

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 10h
For the record, #Packers tackling in 2013 was barely below average. 2012, it was great.

[denverYooper]

It could be worse. They could have Pittsburgh's defense. Yeesh.

[pbmax]

It could be worse. They could have Pittsburgh's defense. Yeesh.

Great offseason quote:

Tyler Dunne ‏@TyDunne 11h
OK so this is why, back at Senior Bowl in Jan., Dick LeBeau said that "We’re talking about Dom and I’ve got my own problems." Yikes, Pitt.

[ThunderDan]

Funny, I was watching the game last night and BALT was running the 2-4. Phil Simms even comment that, "when your two OLBs are as big as the BALT OLBs its like having 4 DL in the game."

[denverYooper]

Funny, I was watching the game last night and BALT was running the 2-4. Phil Simms even comment that, "when your two OLBs are as big as the BALT OLBs its like having 4 DL in the game."

Upshaw is a monster LB.

[wist43]

Funny, I was watching the game last night and BALT was running the 2-4. Phil Simms even comment that, "when your two OLBs are as big as the BALT OLBs its like having 4 DL in the game."

1) their personnel are better than ours
2) their DC doesn't put them in unsound, unrecoverable situations with gimmick after gimmick
3) they don't run it exclusively - it is a subpackage, and treated as such
4) their 2nd level players are much bigger than ours
5) they run as much 3-3 as 2-4; again, for them it is a subpackage, not their base

The 2-4 has a place, but you have to have the personnel to run it, and in no way should it be a base. It is a niche subpackage that a defense can do some good things out of - but the way dunderdummy runs it, and the fact that he runs it almost every snap - it is, and has been, a death sentence for our team.

As I've pointed out - no one - no one - runs the 2-4 as much as dunderdummy; and it isn't even close. If we had the players, and have been getting good results?? Yes, run it 24/7... but that isn't the case - is it?? We don't have the players, and the results have been putrid.

Why you guys love watching your team get gashed play after play is beyond me.

[Fosco33]

I'm done with AJ Hawk. There was a specific play (3rd/short, 1st Q) where Harvin got a swing pass. Hawk could have blown him up around the Hawks 40 and for some reason backbeddled... then made the tackle (after the 1st down).

Last year it was the safeties, this year its the MLB. Jones/Hawk do not inspire confidence (or fear in an opponent).

I wonder if that (and Peppers) would be part of the reason to run more 4/3 type defenses (to hide a weakness, exploit a talent).

[wist43]

It could be worse. They could have Pittsburgh's defense. Yeesh.

Pittsburgh's defense is much better than ours...

Our LB's are terrible - which would explain why dunderdummy designs gameplans to ensure that as many of them as possible are on the field as much as possible?? What's wrong with that picture??

Capers is lost... don't know what stage of alzheimers he's in, but he's definitely on his way.

[pbmax]

I'm done with AJ Hawk. There was a specific play (3rd/short, 1st Q) where Harvin got a swing pass. Hawk could have blown him up around the Hawks 40 and for some reason backbeddled... then made the tackle (after the 1st down).

Last year it was the safeties, this year its the MLB. Jones/Hawk do not inspire confidence (or fear in an opponent).

I wonder if that (and Peppers) would be part of the reason to run more 4/3 type defenses (to hide a weakness, exploit a talent).

Perhaps, but no ILBs have come off the field. Peppers on the field is allowing Matthews to roam, not substitute.

[Cheesehead Craig]

2) their DC doesn't put them in unsound, unrecoverable situations with gimmick after gimmick


This is the part that drives me nuts about the 3-4 in general. It's a defense that relies on trickery and lends itself to gimmicks to succeed. Problem with this is that it may work at the beginning (which is how Capers always gets a great opening start to defenses whereever he goes) but then when you start relying on that too much as Capers does, you start going downhill in a hurry. Gimmicks don't last and Capers shouldn't last here anymore either. Wish they would have fired him back after the 2011-2012 season.

Give me a 4-3 defense any day of the week. Less bullshit and more playing.

[denverYooper]

Pittsburgh's defense is much better than ours...

Our LB's are terrible - which would explain why dunderdummy designs gameplans to ensure that as many of them as possible are on the field as much as possible?? What's wrong with that picture??

Capers is lost... don't know what stage of alzheimers he's in, but he's definitely on his way.

I get the feeling you didn't watch the game last night otherwise you might rethink the assertion that Pittsburgh's defense is (in the present tense) better than GBs... they had their glory days with that crew, for sure, but Pittsburgh just got manhandled last night. It was kind of sad to see Brett Keisel just get buried several times.

FYI:
Pete Damilatis ‏@PFF_Pete 8m
26, a monstrous number. RT @brooksob53 how many tackles did the Steelers miss in all last night?

[Fritz]

Wist's eyebrow hairs have grown so long he can't see out from under them any more.

But I will say that Packer defense did suck, once again, last week.

[wist43]

I get the feeling you didn't watch the game last night otherwise you might rethink the assertion that Pittsburgh's defense is (in the present tense) better than GBs... they had their glory days with that crew, for sure, but Pittsburgh just got manhandled last night. It was kind of sad to see Brett Keisel just get buried several times.

FYI:
Pete Damilatis ‏@PFF_Pete 8m
26, a monstrous number. RT @brooksob53 how many tackles did the Steelers miss in all last night?

I'm not defending Pittsburgh - I'm indicting our defense... it's all relative.

Our defense is better than someone's I'm sure... just don't know who that could be??

[Maxie the Taxi]

From ESPN Packer Blog:

Combine the tackling issues with the fact that the Packers allowed the second-most rushing yards (207) last weekend, and perhaps it's not a surprise that the coaches are leaning toward activating rookie nose tackle Mike Pennel (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/17230/mike-pennel?ex_cid=null) this week against the New York Jets (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets?ex_cid=null).

Their biggest defensive linemen, the 332-pound Pennel was one of last week's seven mandatory inactive players.

"Well he's certainly a big guy," defensive coordinator Dom Capers said Thursday. "I think he'll have a role. It will probably depend on what personnel groups we’re in based off what they give us."

Pennel, an undrafted rookie from Colorado State-Pueblo, was impressive from the outset of training camp and has seen his practice snaps increase this week.

"We've been trying to get him some reps in practice where if we decide to go that direction, he'd be ready to play a role," Capers said.

So Pennel will probably suit up Sunday, but will play only if the Jets don't delay substituting their personnel groups giving Capers time to send Pennel's personnel group into the game without having 10 or 12 Packers on defense.

[George Cumby]

Wist's eyebrow hairs have grown so long he can't see out from under them any more.

But I will say that Packer defense did suck, once again, last week.

Last week?

Shit.

Since the SB run.

[denverYooper]

I'm not defending Pittsburgh - I'm indicting our defense... it's all relative.

Our defense is better than someone's I'm sure... just don't know who that could be??

I'm in full agreement with you on Green Bay's defense being bad and Capers being culpable. I was just pointing out that Pittsburgh's defense is no way better than Green Bay's right now. At all. Their age has caught up with them and they no longer have the personnel to pull off the Capers/LeBeau 3-4, which suggests to me that the scheme really requires the players to know what they're doing and to be physically able to keep up with the demands. Green Bay has the former problem, Pittsburgh now has the latter it seems.

Capers being discombobulated trying to match up personnel in the first game might be a function of the newer approach he was supposed to take. It looked bad, though, and the result was not much better than the last few years.

[red]

anyone else read this?

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/11/packers-patriots-defense-problems/

it got a big "no duh" from me. but its nice to see peter king agree with me that our d-line is way to small

to sum up, for you lazy fucks who don't want to read it. he says our defense and the pats d sucked hard last year, and after one game it looks like neither team fixed the problems. he does think the pats can recover, he has no hope for GB

heres a quote from 2008 right after sanders got fired and capers hired


“Really, what it came down to, I just didn’t feel that we were headed in the right direction on the defensive side of the ball,” McCarthy said then of the switch from Sanders to Capers. “From a personnel standpoint, I’m in favor of the 3-4 because it’s the body type that I think will enhance the type of football we want to play here in Green Bay, particularly in November and December. … It is an excellent run defense.”

he then mentions that many of the players that have been brought in since that time have been 4-3 players

he also mentions the chilling fact that green bays D was ranked 27th in sanders last year when fat mike decided to make the switch. capers D also finished 27th last year, and could be worse this year

[Maxie the Taxi]

Thanks, Red, that was a good article, except I think the Packers can fix what's ailing them if TT, Stubby and Capers are able to step back and take "a more objective look at their personnel" right now. That starts with giving Pennel and Boyd some serious playing time, along with Daniels and Datone Jones on the D-line. The LB's that should get the lion's share of playing time are Matthews, Peppers, Lattimore, Neal and Perry.

[Bretsky]

Pittsburgh's defense is much better than ours...

Our LB's are terrible - which would explain why dunderdummy designs gameplans to ensure that as many of them as possible are on the field as much as possible?? What's wrong with that picture??

Capers is lost... don't know what stage of alzheimers he's in, but he's definitely on his way.


Pittsburg's defense is not better than ours right now IMO
Perhaps our coach is the difference :)

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'll give Dom credit on this one. The defense got gashed for the first 19 minutes of the game for 180 yds and 3 TDs on 3 drives. Then for the last 41 minutes it was 8 drives for 133 yds with 3 pts, 5 punts and a turnover along with a 4th quarter stop on 4th down. He realized what he was doing wasn't working and changed things up. I've criticized him for his lack of adjustments, but he did a real good job on Sunday. They didn't get gashed on the ground after those 3 drives and the pass rush was real good as well. The beginning was awful, but I'll give credit when credit's due.

[pbmax]

I'll give Dom credit on this one. The defense got gashed for the first 19 minutes of the game for 180 yds and 3 TDs on 3 drives. Then for the last 41 minutes it was 8 drives for 133 yds with 3 pts, 5 punts and a turnover along with a 4th quarter stop on 4th down. He realized what he was doing wasn't working and changed things up. I've criticized him for his lack of adjustments, but he did a real good job on Sunday. They didn't get gashed on the ground after those 3 drives and the pass rush was real good as well. The beginning was awful, but I'll give credit when credit's due.

I am not sure how much was adjustments. There was a lot of 4-3, jumbo nickel (Boyd and Guion).

There might have been, oddly enough, less of Matthews at roving LB with Peppers-Jones-Daniels-Neal up front. That unit got gashed several times straight up the middle. Saw a lot more Lattimore later in the game.

[Guiness]

Gotta love that single Vick play that Mathews got a sack on! (especially since I've got Mathews in a FF league :-) )What was Ryan thinking there???

[wist43]

We were completely outcoached to open the game - that's all on dunderdummy. He did adjust, but getting throttled like that to open a game, against an anemic offensive team?? No excuse for that.

The Jets simply don't have any firepower on the outside or at TE, and their QB is not very good - yet dunderdummy can't get it right out of the gate?? And gets gashed by more option plays??

This was the Jets - and we were a semi-bogus TO call away from being tied with them late in the 4th quarter?? What's wrong with that picture??

One play that stands out to me is Geno Smith's easy run up the middle for a 1st down. I've been saying for a long time now that Capers doesn't care about the middle of the LOS, and that play was evidence enough of how out of touch Capers is with something that is essential to playing good defense, i.e. controlling the LOS, and being tough up the middle.

I don't expect we'll be able to stand up to Detroits physicality - they stomped us 40-10 in our last meeting... Rodgers was missing then, so the score will be closer this time, but Detroit is so much more physical than our ballarina team, that I expect they'll punch us in the mouth, and there won't be anything we can do about it.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think Detroit wins big. They're a sleeping giant. So much talent...

[Pugger]

Giving that team a free TD by botching the opening snap before everyone was seated didn't do us any favors. You don't give the underdog life that like that. The one thing I did see from the D was an improvement in tackling and they didn't let the Jets' RB run wild.

[Pugger]

I think Detroit wins big. They're a sleeping giant. So much talent...

Not if they continue to play like they did yesterday.

[denverYooper]

We were completely outcoached to open the game - that's all on dunderdummy. He did adjust, but getting throttled like that to open a game, against an anemic offensive team?? No excuse for that.

The Jets simply don't have any firepower on the outside or at TE, and their QB is not very good - yet dunderdummy can't get it right out of the gate?? And gets gashed by more option plays??

This was the Jets - and we were a semi-bogus TO call away from being tied with them late in the 4th quarter?? What's wrong with that picture??

One play that stands out to me is Geno Smith's easy run up the middle for a 1st down. I've been saying for a long time now that Capers doesn't care about the middle of the LOS, and that play was evidence enough of how out of touch Capers is with something that is essential to playing good defense, i.e. controlling the LOS, and being tough up the middle.

I don't expect we'll be able to stand up to Detroits physicality - they stomped us 40-10 in our last meeting... Rodgers was missing then, so the score will be closer this time, but Detroit is so much more physical than our ballarina team, that I expect they'll punch us in the mouth, and there won't be anything we can do about it.

Detroit's offense is as finesse as they come.

Detroit in general plays a less physical game than the Jets.

[pbmax]

I think Detroit wins big. They're a sleeping giant. So much talent...

They have been repeating that mantra for 20 years of no playoff appearances in Detroit. Its soothing, but ultimately worthless.

[wist43]

Not if they continue to play like they did yesterday.

Carolina is a good team... very tough, very physical. Carolina was 12-4 last year, and a very tough out. They are well coached, and don't shoot themselves in the foot like we do. The Lions losing to the Panthers at home is not a blight on Detroit's record - Detroit was very tough in the trenches as well, and that game was close until the Panthers were able to pull away later in the game.

I cited them as a team that was better than we are, and you guys laughed. In the trenches?? The Panthers will spank us like step-children on every snap.

[wist43]

They have been repeating that mantra for 20 years of no playoff appearances in Detroit. Its soothing, but ultimately worthless.

Detroit's secondary has been a problem for them for a long time. Combine that with sloppy QB play, combined with spectacular QB play... it's been enough to sink them.

Their OL isn't great, but good enough; and their front seven are much, much, better than ours. Of course Megatron, Bush, Bell, and now Ebron?? They're better than we are at the skill positions - sans QB.

They are entirely capable of whipping the shit out of us next week.

[3irty1]

Detroit isn't to be taken lightly but the Panthers are downright scary and we match up horribly. We'll be underdogs at home for that one.

[Joemailman]

They are entirely capable of whipping the shit out of us next week.

Welcome to the NFL. Pretty much any team can get their heads handed to them if the don't play well. After 2 weeks, 18 of the 32 NFL teams are 1-1. 19 if Indy wins tonight.

[Bossman641]

I think the defense is going to be a work in progress for a few weeks yet. As a few reporters have pointed out, by keeping the 4-3 secret during the summer and only working on it in the Hutson center, the D lost a ton reps in practice and the preseason games. Except for a few Geno scrambles and the option toss to Kerley, the run D looked decent. Now if we could just clean up those misdirection plays.

[pbmax]

I think the defense is going to be a work in progress for a few weeks yet. As a few reporters have pointed out, by keeping the 4-3 secret during the summer and only working on it in the Hutson center, the D lost a ton reps in practice and the preseason games. Except for a few Geno scrambles and the option toss to Kerley, the run D looked decent. Now if we could just clean up those misdirection plays.

Geno's run was against some form of the Psycho I think. Peppers was the only lineman I saw, but it might have been a 2 man line.

The 4-3 is also having WAY too much trouble with misdirection. Part of that is Matthews who commits before he has a read and you can't do this as the second line of defense esp. when you have contain.

They are still working out the kinks.

[Carolina_Packer]

Vic Ketchman of Packers.com has mentioned that Capers has used the 4-3 before with Jacksonville. You guys who understand schemes/alignments well perhaps can shed some light on whether Capers is now doing something similar as what he was doing in Jacksonville (if you recall). Would that make Julius Peppers to this defense the equivalent of how Tony Brackens was used in Jacksonville's defense back in the day?

[3irty1]

The 4-3 is also having WAY too much trouble with misdirection.

This. Against Seattle and again last night we gave up big plays due an absurd number of guys being fooled at the same time. Like 6 or 7 guys running away from the ball at times. Not sure how you fix rampant gullibility but moving to more zone coverages in the 2nd half seemed to help quite a bit. A little more discipline would go a long long way towards dumping fabreeze on this defense.

Anyone watching the tape is going to have more of the same in stock for us until we show we can sniff it out.

[3irty1]

Vic Ketchman of Packers.com has mentioned that Capers has used the 4-3 before with Jacksonville. You guys who understand schemes/alignments well perhaps can shed some light on whether Capers is now doing something similar as what he was doing in Jacksonville (if you recall). Would that make Julius Peppers to this defense the equivalent of how Tony Brackens was used in Jacksonville's defense back in the day?

I don't remember that but in Miami Capers was using a hybrid defense that could morph from a 4-3 to a 3-4 with Jason Taylor moving all over the place. Seems like the plan is to take that to an extreme this season because Clay, Peppers, Neal, and Perry are all playing multiple positions from what I've seen.

[pbmax]

I said this in the Game Day thread but being a 2 point DE has made Perry a veritable wall against the run. He can't be moved.

[Bossman641]

I said this in the Game Day thread but being a 2 point DE has made Perry a veritable wall against the run. He can't be moved.

Not too late to jump on..

http://bottomlessart.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bandwagon_553.jpg

[Freak Out]

Who's driving the Perry Wagon?

[Cheesehead Craig]

Perry has some attitude, liking his play the last 2 weeks.

[wist43]

More of this 4-3 subterfuge, lol...

They are not running a 4-3, what you are seeing is a 3-4 Elephant.

Pete Carroll said the Seahawks run a 4-3 with 3-4 principles... define the principles however you want, at least he's telling the truth about the alignment b/c he always has 4 DL with their hand in the dirt.

What Capers has been running is an Elephant with only 3 DL having their hand in the dirt - it is a 3-4 with 4-3 principles.

At the end of the day, it comes down to gap responsibilities - and since the Packers no longer have any 2-gap DL, even when we are in a standard 3-4 alignment, it is going to be a 3-4 with 4-3 principles, i.e. each DL/LB is responsible for a gap, and staying disciplined and controlling their assigned gap is the key to winning the LOS.

The Packers managed to do that a little bit yesterday - after initially getting bitch-slapped; still, if not for Daniels, we would likely be looking at 0-2.

I still like our talent up front overall - but dunderdummy simply can't help himself. It's in his nature to abandon run defense; it's in his nature to abandon the middle of the field without any consideration for the LOS; and it's in his nature to play as small and passive as possible up front. That's who the guy is...

It's the Jets, and somehow dunderdummy and MM found a way to embarrass our team and make it a close game. The national sports talk guys are ripping the Packers today - calling us "pretenders". I don't think they understand why we're pretenders, but even the casual fan is catching on to the fact that something is wrong in Green Bay.

[Pugger]

Perry has some attitude, liking his play the last 2 weeks.

Most likely he is finally healthy. Let's hope this is just the start of good things from him this year. :pack:

[3irty1]

More of this 4-3 subterfuge, lol...

They are not running a 4-3, what you are seeing is a 3-4 Elephant.

Pete Carroll said the Seahawks run a 4-3 with 3-4 principles... define the principles however you want, at least he's telling the truth about the alignment b/c he always has 4 DL with their hand in the dirt.

What Capers has been running is an Elephant with only 3 DL having their hand in the dirt - it is a 3-4 with 4-3 principles.

At the end of the day, it comes down to gap responsibilities - and since the Packers no longer have any 2-gap DL, even when we are in a standard 3-4 alignment, it is going to be a 3-4 with 4-3 principles, i.e. each DL/LB is responsible for a gap, and staying disciplined and controlling their assigned gap is the key to winning the LOS.

The Packers managed to do that a little bit yesterday - after initially getting bitch-slapped; still, if not for Daniels, we would likely be looking at 0-2.

I still like our talent up front overall - but dunderdummy simply can't help himself. It's in his nature to abandon run defense; it's in his nature to abandon the middle of the field without any consideration for the LOS; and it's in his nature to play as small and passive as possible up front. That's who the guy is...

It's the Jets, and somehow dunderdummy and MM found a way to embarrass our team and make it a close game. The national sports talk guys are ripping the Packers today - calling us "pretenders". I don't think they understand why we're pretenders, but even the casual fan is catching on to the fact that something is wrong in Green Bay.

People calling it the 4-3 are following the lead of the JS writers. A 4-3 under best describes the positioning and responsibilities of the players but a 3-4 describes the actual number of down lineman and standing linebackers. 4-3 or 3-4 Elephant communicates it although sometimes it looks like there is more than one Elephant. I hope opposing offenses have as much trouble with the vernacular as this board does.

At this point in the season a win is a win. The Jets aren't a layup, especially for us. There is a lot of room to improve and by season's end this could look like the team we hoped for. Or a decimated heap of losers. Everyone in the NFC except Carolina and Arizona has "something wrong."

[Joemailman]

Packers D actually did some nice things against the run. Jets RB's averaged less than 3 YPC. Jets got 63 yards on 7 plays with Smith carrying or pitching the ball. Obviously there are some kinks to work out, but I see signs of improvement. It will be interesting to see what things look like in future weeks against QB's that aren't as mobile as Wilson and Smith.

[Bossman641]

Who's driving the Perry Wagon?

I'm fully on board

[pbmax]

Frankly, if the pass rush can stay healthy, Perry providing run support is a great bonus. Rotate and be able to matchup as needed.

[pbmax]

More of this 4-3 subterfuge, lol...

They are not running a 4-3, what you are seeing is a 3-4 Elephant.

Pete Carroll said the Seahawks run a 4-3 with 3-4 principles... define the principles however you want, at least he's telling the truth about the alignment b/c he always has 4 DL with their hand in the dirt.

What Capers has been running is an Elephant with only 3 DL having their hand in the dirt - it is a 3-4 with 4-3 principles.


People calling it the 4-3 are following the lead of the JS writers. A 4-3 under best describes the positioning and responsibilities of the players but a 3-4 describes the actual number of down lineman and standing linebackers. 4-3 or 3-4 Elephant communicates it although sometimes it looks like there is more than one Elephant. I hope opposing offenses have as much trouble with the vernacular as this board does.

Funny, Pete Carroll doesn't agree with wist. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/12/6/5181238/seattle-seahawks-defense-nfc-breakdown


More generally, as Pete Carroll put it:

"Our defense is a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel. It's just utilizing the special talents of our guys."

And sbnation in same article:


Cliff Avril and Chris Clemons can rush the passer and cover in the flats and do so from multiple angles and platforms (i.e., two- or three-point stances). Bruce Irvin can be a pass rusher one play and a run-in-coverage linebacker on the next. Their linebackers too can blitz, stop the run, cover and tackle.

And Greg Cosell in same article:


"With Irvin, a returning Chris Clemons, and newly signed Cliff Avril, the Seahawks have three players who can align anywhere in their nickel sub-package. They all have what we call "Joker" ability, the talent to line up in either three-point or two-point stances and rush from different positions and angles.

And from FieldGulls, Seahawks blog:


How will they get the four best rushers on the field considering only one (Michael Bennett) is really suited for the inside over a guard? Look for Cliff Avril at left end, Bennett inside over the center or a guard, Clemons at the right end and Bruce Irvin playing the "spinner" role. The "spinner" stands up and moves during the snap count, meaning he could rush from anywhere.


As for JSO being the source of the 4-3 confusion, let me introduce you to their source on the matter, McCarthy's press conferences:


(On defense look) Whether three or four-man look. Lot of same concepts. Not trying to trick anybody. Just getting better at it. We practiced it in OTAs.

GBPressGazette is on board:


Wes Hodkiewicz ‏@WesHod 2h
MM on 4-3: Schematically, it's a lot of the same concepts. We're not trying to trick anybody. We're utilizing personnel.

They are playing an under front almost all the time now, 3-4 or 4-3 personnel. Difference is who is OLB and role (backer or lineman). This is the less scheme, more personnel he was talking about.

[wist43]

WTF is your point max?? The article itself says 4-3 with 3-4 personnel... They run a 4-3, we run a 3-4. They have outstanding personnel, with a lot of flexibility, but almost always have 4 down linemen, even if one of those down linemen is Irvin. We ran 4 down linemen once against Seattle; don't know how many times yesterday, but I didn't notice any.

Capers is your man, that is for sure... smallish up front, slow and uninstinctive ILB's, getting routinely gashed on the ground, unsound gap control, missed assignments over and over again - yep, Capers is ur man ;)

[pbmax]

My point is that the Packers are running a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. One guy is playing elephant in a two point stance. Just like Seattle does. Just as the post points out.

Its a 4-3 scheme, 4-3 techniques and 4-3 assignments. One guy in a 2 point stance.

You may not like the personnel as much, but its the same idea. BTW, its also the same idea that Belichick has been trotting out for 2 years.

[Carolina_Packer]

More of this 4-3 subterfuge, lol...

They are not running a 4-3, what you are seeing is a 3-4 Elephant.

Pete Carroll said the Seahawks run a 4-3 with 3-4 principles... define the principles however you want, at least he's telling the truth about the alignment b/c he always has 4 DL with their hand in the dirt.

What Capers has been running is an Elephant with only 3 DL having their hand in the dirt - it is a 3-4 with 4-3 principles.

At the end of the day, it comes down to gap responsibilities - and since the Packers no longer have any 2-gap DL, even when we are in a standard 3-4 alignment, it is going to be a 3-4 with 4-3 principles, i.e. each DL/LB is responsible for a gap, and staying disciplined and controlling their assigned gap is the key to winning the LOS.

The Packers managed to do that a little bit yesterday - after initially getting bitch-slapped; still, if not for Daniels, we would likely be looking at 0-2.

I still like our talent up front overall - but dunderdummy simply can't help himself. It's in his nature to abandon run defense; it's in his nature to abandon the middle of the field without any consideration for the LOS; and it's in his nature to play as small and passive as possible up front. That's who the guy is...

It's the Jets, and somehow dunderdummy and MM found a way to embarrass our team and make it a close game. The national sports talk guys are ripping the Packers today - calling us "pretenders". I don't think they understand why we're pretenders, but even the casual fan is catching on to the fact that something is wrong in Green Bay.

Nice informative post. I don't say this in defense of Capers. I am not trying to defend him. I want whatever is going to make the Packers a better team. If that's with Capers, fine. If it's without Capers, fine. I couldn't care less about who the coaches are, as long as they are helping the players get the job done. To that end, what are you seeing from the interior of the defensive line? Is Guion struggling because of Guion, or is he horribly miscast as a 3-4 NT? Doesn't it really challenge the linebackers if Guion can't hold the point of attack and the linebackers see more blockers in the second level?

[wist43]

My point is that the Packers are running a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. One guy is playing elephant in a two point stance. Just like Seattle does. Just as the post points out.

Its a 4-3 scheme, 4-3 techniques and 4-3 assignments. One guy in a 2 point stance.

You may not like the personnel as much, but its the same idea. BTW, its also the same idea that Belichick has been trotting out for 2 years.

It's an Elephant - an Elephant is not a 4-3. Period. Dallas ran the Elephant with Demarcus Ware standing up most of the time - they were always listed as a 3-4... where this nonsense about 3 down linemen actually being 4 came from I can't begin to fathom. 3 is actully 4, is actually 5, is actually 3... don't look now, but here comes the donut-ham-hamburger!!

Do you work for the government max?? 2+2=5 when it is handed to you by Big Brother??

As for New England - their defense has sucked for a while now... almost as epicly bad as ours.

[pbmax]

It's an Elephant - an Elephant is not a 4-3. Period. Dallas ran the Elephant with Demarcus Ware standing up most of the time - they were always listed as a 3-4... where this nonsense about 3 down linemen actually being 4 came from I can't begin to fathom. 3 is actully 4, is actually 5, is actually 3... don't look now, but here comes the donut-ham-hamburger!!

Do you work for the government max?? 2+2=5 when it is handed to you by Big Brother??

As for New England - their defense has sucked for a while now... almost as epicly bad as ours.

I don't know why you are trying to argue with me. Clearly your beef is with Pete Carroll who insists his 4-3 with a standing end is a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. You must have missed the talking points email.

[George Cumby]

I'm fully on board

Count me in.

[sharpe1027]

No scheme works without solid execution. On the other hand, there are plenty of different schemes that work with good execution.

Why we spend pages of posts about differences in schemes and what they should be called is beyond me. It may be coaching, but IMO it is poor execution that is the main problem.

[wist43]

I don't know why you are trying to argue with me. Clearly your beef is with Pete Carroll who insists his 4-3 with a standing end is a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. You must have missed the talking points email.

I live in a world where everyone accepts that 2+2=5... I gotta the memo, I just rejected it as being idiotic. The rest of you robots say, "... of course 2+2=5, and anyone who doesn't agree is a heretic".

[pbmax]

I live in a world where everyone accepts that 2+2=5... I gotta the memo, I just rejected it as being idiotic. The rest of you robots say, "... of course 2+2=5, and anyone who doesn't agree is a heretic".

I live in the world where if the coach of the defense to which you are contrasting the object of your ire tells you its a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel and three or more people have spotted the fourth lineman in a two point stance, then you concede that the following statement:


Pete Carroll said the Seahawks run a 4-3 with 3-4 principles... define the principles however you want, at least he's telling the truth about the alignment b/c he always has 4 DL with their hand in the dirt.

is incorrect. Twice over.

Far more interesting is why is Capers still running a 3-4 with two standing OLBs rather than the 4-3 all the time? I presume its to get Matthews back on the LOS, but I would like to know more.

[sharpe1027]

I live in a world where everyone accepts that 2+2=5... I gotta the memo, I just rejected it as being idiotic. The rest of you robots say, "... of course 2+2=5, and anyone who doesn't agree is a heretic".

Everyone is against you. You see the light and everyone else is in the dark. Lead us to salvation!

[wist43]

No scheme works without solid execution. On the other hand, there are plenty of different schemes that work with good execution.

Why we spend pages of posts about differences in schemes and what they should be called is beyond me. It may be coaching, but IMO it is poor execution that is the main problem.

The point about the 2-4 is we don't have the personnel to run it - so the coaching staff is asking them to execute an alignment for which they are completely ill-suited. That is lousy coaching.

The same applies to one of the supposed fixes dunderdummy and MM dreamed up - the 2-5. We have terrible ILB's, yet the coaching staff refuse to acknowledge that. Instead, they dream up a scheme that keeps those poor players on the field full-time. That is lousy coaching.

TT has done a horrible job of acquiring players that fit the style of play that Capers wants; and at the same time, Capers has done a terrible job of using the talent that TT has acquired. As I've been saying for a few years now - there is a complete disconnect between the GM and the coaching staff, and we can see the mess on the field.

On the other side of the ledger, in the world were 2+2=4; they've incorporated the Elephant, which for my money is a 3-4 that uses 4-3 principles; and they've been using more base 3-4, even though it is not a standard 3-4, as it uses 4-3 principles as well. So they have adjusted a little bit from last seasons endless debacles.

The Elephant is progress... a step in the right direction. Any 4-3 they throw out there is progress; and playing some actual 3-4 is progress - even though now we don't have the personnel to run a base 3-4 any longer. As long as it is a base 3-4 that uses 4-3 principles, we can get by with it, but it is not ideal given the players we have.

Now that we have 2 games under our belt to see what the dummies at 1265 have been up to this offseason, I can envision a middle of the pack finish in defense - don't think that's good enough to get past the good teams in the playoffs. Dunderdummy still wants to play as small as possible; our ILB's are still complete junk... the bottom line is, dunderdummy is still our DC - that alone is too much to overcome to get back to the SB.

[wist43]

I live in the world where if the coach of the defense to which you are contrasting the object of your ire tells you its a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel and three or more people have spotted the fourth lineman in a two point stance, then you concede that the following statement:



is incorrect. Twice over.

Far more interesting is why is Capers still running a 3-4 with two standing OLBs rather than the 4-3 all the time? I presume its to get Matthews back on the LOS, but I would like to know more.

I'm done with you on this subject max - you are just being obtuse.

[denverYooper]

I live in a world where everyone accepts that 2+2=5... I gotta the memo, I just rejected it as being idiotic. The rest of you robots say, "... of course 2+2=5, and anyone who doesn't agree is a heretic".

You clearly never understood algebra.

[3irty1]

Every scheme needs a second level of linebackers at least to some degree you'll have to sink or swim with what's on the roster.

In pretty much any formation you can displace one of them by moving Clay into a second level role, but now you're building a scheme around getting your worst player in a position to sit on the bench rather than get your best player in a position to play their best. Is our ILB play so poor that its worth sacrificing a pro bowl pass rusher to mitigate? Any scheme that gets Hawk or Jones/Lattimore off the field without going into dime is basically saying yes to that question.

These questions are way above the paygrade of even the most infallible armchair coaches and GMs but I'd say no, the highest paid pass rusher in the league needs to be rushing the passer most of the time.

[Teamcheez1]

I live in a world where everyone accepts that 2+2=5... I gotta the memo, I just rejected it as being idiotic. The rest of you robots say, "... of course 2+2=5, and anyone who doesn't agree is a heretic".

It may be better than saying 2 + 2 = 3.

[pbmax]

I'm done with you on this subject max - you are just being obtuse.

Not at all. We just need to get past the idea that a Defensive lineman must also be a Down lineman. A down lineman is not as important a distinction in a defense as a lineman having LOS responsibilities.

And that standing elephant is clearly playing a D lineman's role.

Second better question, why are they never in a 3 point stance across the board. Why that technique?

[pbmax]

Every scheme needs a second level of linebackers at least to some degree you'll have to sink or swim with what's on the roster.

In pretty much any formation you can displace one of them by moving Clay into a second level role, but now you're building a scheme around getting your worst player in a position to sit on the bench rather than get your best player in a position to play their best. Is our ILB play so poor that its worth sacrificing a pro bowl pass rusher to mitigate? Any scheme that gets Hawk or Jones/Lattimore off the field without going into dime is basically saying yes to that question.

These questions are way above the paygrade of even the most infallible armchair coaches and GMs but I'd say no, the highest paid pass rusher in the league needs to be rushing the passer most of the time.

And Clay hasn't been exactly reliable in the middle.

[wist43]

You clearly never understood algebra.

Well, since I have a degree in chemistry... I think I have a handle on math - it's living in Orwellian Amerika I have serious issues with ;)

[3irty1]

What I thought for sure was coming this year was a 1-gapping 3-4 scheme. Ted loaded up on 1-gap 3-4 players, all the hints MM dropped hinted at a 1-gap 3-4 scheme, players talked about a more attacking style of defense. I'm happy with the 4-3/3-4 elephant/2-5 whatever-you-want-to-call-it as the answer, right now my issue is play calling.

Moving to a 1-gap scheme changes your whole defensive philosophy, the math up front is different. I don't care if your nickel is a 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, or 1-5, in a 1-gap front you can't trot that out against a balanced set and expect to stop the run with 7 vs 6 the way you can in a 2-gap front. On the other hand your base defense evens the math against the run and will be much better against the pass than its 2-gap counterpart. Plus with all the athletic lineman its zone-blitzing heaven. Against run-heavy offenses especially when your own offense is sucking balls we should have a front 7 more often than a front 6 so the back doesn't have a path to the secondary every play. I won't speak in absolutes, I think a Boyd-Guion 2-4 is fine once in a while as would be a base defense against a 3 WR set.

[ThunderDan]

What I thought for sure was coming this year was a 1-gapping 3-4 scheme. Ted loaded up on 1-gap 3-4 players, all the hints MM dropped hinted at a 1-gap 3-4 scheme, players talked about a more attacking style of defense. I'm happy with the 4-3/3-4 elephant/2-5 whatever-you-want-to-call-it as the answer, right now my issue is play calling.

Moving to a 1-gap scheme changes your whole defensive philosophy, the math up front is different. I don't care if your nickel is a 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, or 1-5, in a 1-gap front you can't trot that out against a balanced set and expect to stop the run with 7 vs 6 the way you can in a 2-gap front. On the other hand your base defense evens the math against the run and will be much better against the pass than its 2-gap counterpart. Plus with all the athletic lineman its zone-blitzing heaven. Against run-heavy offenses especially when your own offense is sucking balls we should have a front 7 more often than a front 6 so the back doesn't have a path to the secondary every play. I won't speak in absolutes, I think a Boyd-Guion 2-4 is fine once in a while as would be a base defense against a 3 WR set.

Good post, it was interesting to see what the NY Jets did on D. They stayed in base with 3 WR and shut Lacy down. They also allowed Jordy to go for over 200 yards. If you have a real good QB/RB combo defenses are going to have trouble defending you.

[3irty1]

Good post, it was interesting to see what the NY Jets did on D. They stayed in base with 3 WR and shut Lacy down. They also allowed Jordy to go for over 200 yards. If you have a real good QB/RB combo defenses are going to have trouble defending you.

I've seen that argument but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Jordy was getting his yards no matter what, their boundary corners are just not good enough to stop him. The guy who had the most to gain from the Jets sitting in base was Cobb and he only gained 39 yards while being mostly covered by linebackers and safeties. Also our tight ends did nothing. They shut down a lot more than just Lacy.

[Carolina_Packer]

I've seen that argument but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Jordy was getting his yards no matter what, their boundary corners are just not good enough to stop him. The guy who had the most to gain from the Jets sitting in base was Cobb and he only gained 39 yards while being mostly covered by linebackers and safeties. Also our tight ends did nothing. They shut down a lot more than just Lacy.

31, in some respects, would you agree that MM shut it down by not showing it? They can't defense what you don't throw at them. Only MM can explain why.

As for Cobb, it may have been you, possibly someone else, but I agree regardless, that he needs more YAC if he has a more favorable coverage matchup. I imagined that they would get even more imaginative with Cobb's touches, but so far have played it fairly straight, save for the running play I recall. How about a Percy Harvin-like jet sweet Cobb style?

[Bossman641]

31, in some respects, would you agree that MM shut it down by not showing it? They can't defense what you don't throw at them. Only MM can explain why.

As for Cobb, it may have been you, possibly someone else, but I agree regardless, that he needs more YAC if he has a more favorable coverage matchup. I imagined that they would get even more imaginative with Cobb's touches, but so far have played it fairly straight, save for the running play I recall. How about a Percy Harvin-like jet sweet Cobb style?

I'm not sure Cobb is fast enough to run sweeps. Harvin ran a 4.41 and Cobb a 4.46 but Harvin looks a hell of a lot faster. Cobb has me concerned a little bit. It feels like he has lost a bit of speed coming off his injury.

[3irty1]

31, in some respects, would you agree that MM shut it down by not showing it? They can't defense what you don't throw at them. Only MM can explain why.

As for Cobb, it may have been you, possibly someone else, but I agree regardless, that he needs more YAC if he has a more favorable coverage matchup. I imagined that they would get even more imaginative with Cobb's touches, but so far have played it fairly straight, save for the running play I recall. How about a Percy Harvin-like jet sweet Cobb style?

I've got no issues with how MM refused to run against a stacked front. A stacked front vs Aaron Rodgers is the kind of thing we've dreamed of ever since we got Lacy. But the fact that we still couldn't get much going, especially with Cobb in what would appear to be a great matchup for him shows the merit of a 1-gap defense perfectly IMO.

I think Cobb is way too slow to pull of the Harvin sweep type plays. I'd like to see Cobb outrun a linebacker before I ask him to outrun an entire defense.

[denverYooper]

I'm not sure Cobb is fast enough to run sweeps. Harvin ran a 4.41 and Cobb a 4.46 but Harvin looks a hell of a lot faster. Cobb has me concerned a little bit. It feels like he has lost a bit of speed coming off his injury.

He looks jacked, like he might have overdone it a little bit in the weight room. But then rehab was all he had to really focus on for several months. It's not a surprise he bulked up some.

[Bretsky]

I said this in the Game Day thread but being a 2 point DE has made Perry a veritable wall against the run. He can't be moved.

Give credit to Dom, who has found an effective way to use him in our packages. He played a very good game

[wist43]

Give credit to Dom...

Never, ever say that again!!!

For SHAME!!!

[pbmax]

I've seen that argument but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Jordy was getting his yards no matter what, their boundary corners are just not good enough to stop him. The guy who had the most to gain from the Jets sitting in base was Cobb and he only gained 39 yards while being mostly covered by linebackers and safeties. Also our tight ends did nothing. They shut down a lot more than just Lacy.

Single high safety helped his touchdown.

[gbgary]

Packers will be seeing more of a "regular" offense in the next three or four games. things should be better.

[Joemailman]

Packers will be seeing more of a "regular" offense in the next three or four games. things should be better.

With the exception of Carolina October 19, Packers may be done facing option QB's. Not sure about Bridgewater if he becomes the Vikings starter.

[gbgary]

With the exception of Carolina October 19, Packers may be done facing option QB's.

i'll be at that game. hopefully by then we'll be hitting on all cylinders.

[smuggler]

Never, ever say that again!!!

For SHAME!!!

Broken clock, blind squirrel, Dom Capers.

[Freak Out]

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/WYMM-Mike-Daniels-buckles-down/712896cc-cb50-42e8-9702-3fb9dac5f0a3

[George Cumby]

Nice find, Freak. I've always liked his hustle and he's saying the right things.

[denverYooper]

Nice find, Freak. I've always liked his hustle and he's saying the right things.

That makes me think that part of the defensive design for this year was to feature Daniels's strengths.

[Fritz]

That makes me think that part of the defensive design for this year was to feature Daniels's strengths.

This is a big game for the whole defensive line. I am hoping Capers uses his linemen to create penetration. That could lead to some big runs on draws and big gains on screens, but may also lead to losses on runs and perhaps to turnovers on Matt Statford.

[Freak Out]

I like those kinds of video features...the game wasn't on here, and of course all the highlight reels just show Rodgers/Nelson so you miss a lot of good stuff.

[Guiness]

I like those kinds of video features...the game wasn't on here, and of course all the highlight reels just show Rodgers/Nelson so you miss a lot of good stuff.

Some good highlights of his work there. He really excels at shedding blocks, on the 2nd play they show he lines up on the inside shoulder of the guard, pushes him back, then released to the guards outside shoulder to make the tackle! He did something similar later, lining up directly over the guard, going outside then changing direction, leaving the guard blocking air while he went around his inside shoulder and hit Geno.

[Guiness]

If we're complaining about the 2-5 that gets thrown out there on occasion, imagine if Rob Ryan was the Pack's co-ordinator!

http://cbssports.com/images/blogs/play1.jpg

Yup, that's the vaunted 0-5-6 look, rushing 6!

[Fritz]

If we're complaining about the 2-5 that gets thrown out there on occasion, imagine if Rob Ryan was the Pack's co-ordinator!

http://cbssports.com/images/blogs/play1.jpg

Yup, that's the vaunted 0-5-6 look, rushing 6!


Wist is already teetering on the verge of major heart failure; if the Packers employed that look he'd have the big one and be gone. Don't let Capers unveil that look!

[Carolina_Packer]

In the words of Lombardi, "what the hell is going on out there?" The defense, save for a couple of turnovers was as bad as the offense was good today. It reminded me of 2011 all over again. Lots of yards, big plays, some turnovers created, bend, but don't break. The best defense is the offense getting a big lead, not being able to run the ball effectively...you know the story.

Calling all Packerrats who understand schemes and formations. What are you seeing from a scheme/personnel standpoint that is allowing the Packers defense to get gashed? What could/should Capers be doing to get this fixed? This is embarrassing. If the Packers can't stop the run, and give up almost a first down on every opposing offensive snap, how can they ever hope to get pressure? There's no obvious passing down on second/third and manageable, and if the Packers are getting gashed in the run game, why would the opposing offense ever let up?

Again, I get that they won today and that makes me happy, but if this goes the way of 2011's defense, if/when we get to the post season, it will be the same story. The Packers will face a superior defense that will find a way to take away what the offense wants to do, and then the defense not having a big lead to hold onto will be exposed again. Rather than just bitching about what Capers is not doing, it would and interesting discussion to hear from some of you scheme gurus to see what the Packers could do to fix the defense to fix what ails them.

[pbmax]

The middle two guys in nickel (Daniels and Jones) for pass rush or for run D (Boyd and one of Guion/Daniels) are playing terrible. The Bears game was significant because even Daniels wasn't up to his normal level.

Add to that the ends and SAM linebacker taking terrible angles and abandoning gaps. Peppers has been the best at this, but Matthews, Lattimore, Neal, Jones and the safeties has been really loose in gap discipline. Outside of Peppers, the only guy steady on the end has been Perry which is why you keep seeing him in the second half when there is a lead. I have no idea why Burnett is close to the LOS and Ha Ha is deep.

Remember the jumbo formation the Packers would line up to guard against Peterson in 2012 (Raji, Pickett and Wilson)? It was terrible against him for two games and it wasn't for lack of size. Everyone was playing their own gap and nothing else. Some were penetrating, others were waiting. No one stayed in their gap and got off the block. Raji was in the backfield but whiffing. Despite talent and size, it was terrible run defense.

Same thing here. Someone is ALWAYS out of position and those interior D lineman are not helping, they are getting moved which gives the back space and time. Matthews is still getting used to being in the middle. He loves to react quickly and chase, but in the middle that is recipe for disaster.

Part of this is talent, the interior guys are not dominating players. But a lot of it is getting used to the scheme and knowing where their teammates are going to be. When to freelance and when to sit in a gap. It also doesn't help that the only guy in the backend who knows how to tackle is Ha-Ha.

[wist43]

Wist is already teetering on the verge of major heart failure; if the Packers employed that look he'd have the big one and be gone. Don't let Capers unveil that look!

That's more of an amoeba look... don't know what Ryan's problems are - one thing I know for sure, Dom Capers can't care Rob Ryan's jock.

Capers couldn't care less about the middle of the field, and he's proven that for several years running. Whether it is stopping the run up the middle, or making receivers pay over the middle - Capers simply doesn't think that is real estate worth contesting.

The Bears smashed us over and over again up the middle and over the middle... that's all on Capers. He simply doesn't belong in the league anymore - hopefully TT will get that figured out by years end.

We win a game b/c of our offense, and suddenly you guys think we have a defense?? lol... More good news - we get to play the anemic Vikings on Thursday... On our way to the SB again are we?? You guys are such bandwagon jumpers - both on and off :)

[Carolina_Packer]

The middle two guys in nickel (Daniels and Jones) for pass rush or for run D (Boyd and one of Guion/Daniels) are playing terrible. The Bears game was significant because even Daniels wasn't up to his normal level.

Add to that the ends and SAM linebacker taking terrible angles and abandoning gaps. Peppers has been the best at this, but Matthews, Lattimore, Neal, Jones and the safeties has been really loose in gap discipline. Outside of Peppers, the only guy steady on the end has been Perry which is why you keep seeing him in the second half when there is a lead. I have no idea why Burnett is close to the LOS and Ha Ha is deep.

Remember the jumbo formation the Packers would line up to guard against Peterson in 2012 (Raji, Pickett and Wilson)? It was terrible against him for two games and it wasn't for lack of size. Everyone was playing their own gap and nothing else. Some were penetrating, others were waiting. No one stayed in their gap and got off the block. Raji was in the backfield but whiffing. Despite talent and size, it was terrible run defense.

Same thing here. Someone is ALWAYS out of position and those interior D lineman are not helping, they are getting moved which gives the back space and time. Matthews is still getting used to being in the middle. He loves to react quickly and chase, but in the middle that is recipe for disaster.

Part of this is talent, the interior guys are not dominating players. But a lot of it is getting used to the scheme and knowing where their teammates are going to be. When to freelance and when to sit in a gap. It also doesn't help that the only guy in the backend who knows how to tackle is Ha-Ha.

So gap discipline is critical to them being able to improve run defense. And, as you alluded to, I saw a lot of guys who were well blocked by Bears o-line, and not many consistently winning their one on one battle in their gap. When is the last time you remember the defense consistently swarming to the ball? Scheme may be important, but so is the ability to whip the guy in front of you. Is anyone seeing much of that?

If you are a Capers hater or not; fine, get someone else in here. I only care about the success of the Packers, not whether he is the DC. But tell me how another DC will take the same guys who can't win a one on one battle consistently, can't take good angles to the play consistently, can't wrap up and tackle consistently, can't diagnose plays pre-snap consistently and turn them into a capable defense? Is it really all about the wrong scheme? I do agree with MM that scheme is not a crutch. The ultimate success or failure is Capers fault, but it's always the players who have to execute what is called. Is it too simplistic to ask, "hey, whatever adjustments you made in the Jets game when you were getting gashed, where were those adjustments today in the Bears game?"

[pbmax]

Part of the problem of gap control and tackling is that players are often out of position or coming from well away from the play to make a play. So they do swarm, but it leaves gaps as it happens. And, as you noted, not many are winning individual battlers (Daniels previously being a big exception), no one is clean to make a play. So everyone is one arming their gap.

So swarming to the ball while one arming the tacking leaves a lot of broken tackles and lots of space to operate. The Capers Packers D has always been aggressive to the ball to the point of hurting itself (minus the 2009 season in run D). They need to slow down, play the gap and put a body on the ball carrier. Once they master that, then you can try for strips, big hits or penetrating deep into the backfield.

Right now its not sound technique.

[Carolina_Packer]

That's more of an amoeba look... don't know what Ryan's problems are - one thing I know for sure, Dom Capers can't care Rob Ryan's jock.

Capers couldn't care less about the middle of the field, and he's proven that for several years running. Whether it is stopping the run up the middle, or making receivers pay over the middle - Capers simply doesn't think that is real estate worth contesting. There is definitely an undeniable lack of execution/adjustments, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to stop the run. What did he do in the Jets game that finally slowed them down? We all agree that we don't like what we are seeing, but Capers doesn't want to stop the run. Don't buy that.

The Bears smashed us over and over again up the middle and over the middle... that's all on Capers. He simply doesn't belong in the league anymore - hopefully TT will get that figured out by years end. There's no denying what we all saw with our own eyes, over and over. Again, I assert, is this just schematic? Could another DC take the same set of guys and mold them into a competitive defense? Not saying keep Capers...I'm saying we might need more help. I believe talent can overcome scheme because good football players have talent that shows out

We win a game b/c of our offense, and suddenly you guys think we have a defense?? lol... More good news - we get to play the anemic Vikings on Thursday... On our way to the SB again are we?? You guys are such bandwagon jumpers - both on and off :) You chastise, but do you seriously think there are people on this forum who would defend that effort on run defense? I'm glad the offense got up big and had a cushion, but that is nothing to rely on if you are the defense. We don't like it either, Wist.

Capers most likely won't be fired in-season; that doesn't seem like their style, and they'd have to have a plan for succession, They'll just have to make whatever adjustments they can, and make the best of this season. I hope they get it together.

[Freak Out]

If this keeps up...which unfortunately it probably will...Capers need to be shown the door. There is talent on the defensive side of the ball but its not setup to succeed. Which could very well cost this team another shot at the SB this year.

[Carolina_Packer]

If this keeps up...which unfortunately it probably will...Capers need to be shown the door. There is talent on the defensive side of the ball but its not setup to succeed. Which could very well cost this team another shot at the SB this year.

Yeah Freak Out, I've had that thought for a while. I was surprised that Capers wasn't shown the door after last season. What was it that was showing MM that things were going to be different this year? So, now the response from MM might be that they are taking some time to get used to a different scheme. (Mostly) same players, now playing in a different wrinkle of 3-4. Similar results. What is the players culpability? How would another DC make them tackle better, take better angles to plays, diagnose better, not leave their gap responsibility better, get off blocks and win their one on one battles better? Don't get me wrong, Capers still needs to go. He's ultimately responsible. These same players, another DC...who knows?

[wist43]

That's more of an amoeba look... don't know what Ryan's problems are - one thing I know for sure, Dom Capers can't care Rob Ryan's jock.

Capers couldn't care less about the middle of the field, and he's proven that for several years running. Whether it is stopping the run up the middle, or making receivers pay over the middle - Capers simply doesn't think that is real estate worth contesting. There is definitely an undeniable lack of execution/adjustments, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to stop the run. What did he do in the Jets game that finally slowed them down? We all agree that we don't like what we are seeing, but Capers doesn't want to stop the run. Don't buy that.

The Bears smashed us over and over again up the middle and over the middle... that's all on Capers. He simply doesn't belong in the league anymore - hopefully TT will get that figured out by years end. There's no denying what we all saw with our own eyes, over and over. Again, I assert, is this just schematic? Could another DC take the same set of guys and mold them into a competitive defense? Not saying keep Capers...I'm saying we might need more help. I believe talent can overcome scheme because good football players have talent that shows out

We win a game b/c of our offense, and suddenly you guys think we have a defense?? lol... More good news - we get to play the anemic Vikings on Thursday... On our way to the SB again are we?? You guys are such bandwagon jumpers - both on and off. You chastise, but do you seriously think there are people on this forum who would defend that effort on run defense? I'm glad the offense got up big and had a cushion, but that is nothing to rely on if you are the defense. We don't like it either, Wist.


Capers most likely won't be fired in-season; that doesn't seem like their style, and they'd have to have a plan for succession, They'll just have to make whatever adjustments they can, and make the best of this season. I hope they get it together.

There has been nonstop support for Capers schemes on this board. I criticize the 2-4, and with few exceptions, everyone on this board freaks out and breathlessly defend it - afterall, how can you defend the TE, or the RB out of the backfield, or the 3rd WR??

We get gashed in the run game - but oh no!! we must, we must continue to run the 2-4 b/c it is the only sensible option, right??

It isn't Capers, it's the players, right??

------------------------------------------------------------

Most Packerrats spent most of the offseason being critical of Capers, but at the same time defending the 2-4.

Now Capers comes out with a different scheme - but he's still fundamentally flawed in the same ways - the most obvious being that he doesn't defend the middle of the field, and he doesn't care about winning the LOS.

Cutler fumbles the snap, and roots around on the ground for a couple of seconds - stands up, and realizes there isn't a defender in front of him for 20 yds, and he rumbles right up the middle for 16 yds on 4th and 1?? WTF is wrong with that picture??

Capers biggest problem is that he thinks every single stinking snap is a pass; yes, it is a passing league by and large, but if you don't defend the run at all, your opponent doesn't need to pass.

We gave up another 235 yds rushing again yesterday. Capers is a complete disaster - there's just no getting around it.

[Zool]

There has been nonstop support for Capers schemes on this board.

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

[Rutnstrut]

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

He's right though, the general consensus of the Kool-aid crowd is that no other aspect of the game matters much as long as Rodgers plays well.

[wist43]

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

As Bruce Willis said in Die Hard, "Welcome to the party pal... " :)

And yes, I'm sure your name has been added to the "undesireables" list... off to reeducation for us soon enough ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the X's and O's of football... it is like building a house - you have to have a solid foundation, and what crazy shit you do after that is up to you. If you don't have a solid foundation, however, the building will collapse. Frank Lloyd Wright used to build some of the nuttiest looking shit imaginable, but what he built was stable and solidly founded. The same applies to just about any systemic platform.

What Capers does is fundamentally unsound, b/c if you don't control the LOS, and you're weak up the middle - you can't win consistently. Maybe your team has enough talent to cover up for the flawed philosophical approach against less talented teams; but, against a tough opponent who takes those fundamentals seriously - you're going to get slapped around, and you're more than likely going to lose; and that is what we have been witness to for the past 3-4 years.

At this early stage of the season, it looks like the teams to beat in the NFC are Seattle, Dallas, Detroit, and maybe Arizona... all of those teams are tougher and more physical than we are. Philly isn't bad - but I'm not sold on Foles.

Maybe SF, NO, and Carolina rebound, I don't know... but the NFC isn't looking like the juggernaut we all thought it would be. And don't forget the Giants - they are suddenly showing signs of life again - a team that has been slow to round into form in the past, and a team that has whipped our asses in the trenches twice on their way to winning Superbowls.

Unless MM and Capers take their blinders off and adopt a tougher, more physical mindset and approach - we're not going anywhere this year.

[Rutnstrut]

TT, MM, and capers do not seem to care about tougher and more physical. In fact imo this defense looks to be getting softer and more pussy like.

[denverYooper]

31 brought it up a while back, but the Packers are built to pass and get after the passer. They rely on Rodgers and the passing game to pressure the opponent to keep up and start making mistakes. That's exactly what happened yesterday, and it's how the Packers want to do business. Ideally, sure, they'd love to be great running/stopping the run, but if they can only get to do one thing well on defense, it might as well be stopping the pass.

I know the D looks shitty against the run, but they're currently 6th in PRA (passer rating against) at 78.9 and have faced some decent passing offenses. The last few years, this has been ~100 and that has killed them more than anything. At least they're getting some pressure and some takeaways this year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Just to add some fun to the conversation:

Packers defense has allowed 37 pts in the last 11 quarters. That's about 14 pts/game at that pace. Just sayin'.

This from a guy who still wants Capers fired.

[deake]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

[Carolina_Packer]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

[denverYooper]

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

They're not exactly conceding the run, but they're thinking pass first all day long. The offense stalled because of that front 4, but the Giants beat the pants off of the Packers through the air and made the Packers try to keep up.

[red]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

[Bretsky]

packer post game was noting how poor the ilb play is and most of the solid defenses in the nfl have one dominant ilb. they keep noting hawk is ..........ok........but went on to list the rest and noted they are all nothing better then 2nd stringers........and that included just a jag jones

[Bretsky]

they actually felt this year's ilb core were just as bad as the safeties last year

[denverYooper]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

It's been excruciating watching teams chip away at the middle of the field, but the biggest problem in the great safety dearth between Collins and HHCD has been the atrocious play on deep passes. Early signs point to that being less of a problem this year. Actually, Waldo before he had a kid and checked out had a good theory about failure at all 3 levels up the middle. GB's back line looks like it's been solidified.

As for the LBs and DL.... well, yeah, those need some shoring up yet.

[Carolina_Packer]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/packers-looking-to-improve-defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.

[3irty1]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.


Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.


The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[Fritz]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/packers-looking-to-improve-defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.


This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

[denverYooper]

This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[Fritz]

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).



We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

[Carolina_Packer]

We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

[Guiness]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

Which one does 4. Profit! go after?

[pbmax]

I think the "surprised" quote has become boilerplate. Something to throw out there that may or may not be the reality but answers the question while giving away nothing. He used it too often otherwise. He's also an vet coach with a Super Bowl win, so he can admit to missing something. I don't think its easy for M3 to admit this is 2006-2009.

However, since the Packers new 4-3 has had some big leaks, I would be stunned if teams aren't just running new stuff to take advantage of what other teams expose.

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

[3irty1]

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

[pbmax]

it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

[wist43]

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

[wist43]

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

[pbmax]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

[Bretsky]

DOM called a very good game versus the Lions overall....just wanted to note it since many seemed to ignore his work that week

[KYPack]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

[Carolina_Packer]

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

Totally agree. So, there's the big question...how will they do it? So is it poor scheme or poor execution of scheme? While that debate rages on, can someone give us some hope here? McCarthy said in his press conferences following the game that the mistakes he is seeing with the run D are all correctable. I hope he's right. OK, putting aside whether Capers should stay or go for now (he's staying the rest of the year at least), what will they be correcting specifically? What adjustments might they make? Is it just guys getting pushed around? Is it guys out of position, losing gap responsibility?

Let's not forget we're all Packer fans. I hope they can get these problems worked out.

[George Cumby]

What I can't get my head around is WHY do we have to rehash the same shit for four years? Blown assignments, bad communication, poor execution....... AGAIN. There's talent there on the defense but it isn't being optimized. Why not? The poor fundamentals is what really kills me.

[Fritz]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase


I don't want this post to appear to be attacking you - because it's not - but for years one of our complaints with this defense (and I was one of the ones complaining) was that it was too static, too read-and-react. After Kaepernick torched the Pack in the playoffs a couple years ago, the defense seemed to go even more toward this "hold your gap" mentality to try to contain. One of the problems three years ago, I think, was Raji not doing this and penetrating a lot against Minny, allowing Peterson to run wild. We also complained (myself included) that all this work to not have any holes in the pocket for QB's to run through meant nice clean pockets for the passer.

So MM has changed it up - more penetrating, more shooting gaps. And now this shit it happening.

I don't know what the hell to think any more. I couldn't stand that contain stuff the way it was run, because it seemed to mean that opposing QB's had all day to throw. Now Capers is getting pressure with only four, but apparently at the expense of allowing running backs gaps as wide as a porn star's.

I'm frustrated, frustrated, frustrated by this defense. I hope to goodness Capers is gone after this season. In the meantime, are we once again falling back on "it's the fundamentals"? Can't our staff teach them as well as other staffs that are not alllowing 170+ running yards per game?

[wist43]

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

Of course you're going to get beat - once in a while; of course a team is going to get the better of you - once in a while; of course you're going to zig when you should have zagged...

We're not witnessing any of that - what we're witnessing is play after play failure; game after game failure; season after season failure... it's the same crap over and over again.

I'm not the bad guy here - I'm just pointing out the obvious, or at least what should be obvious. You guys seem to lack the stones to call a spade a spade - when is enough ever enough for you kool-aid drinkers??

You guys don't believe in accountability - lucky for you, neither does MM or TT.

[wist43]

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

If a DC is putting his players in positions to be successful - and then they are not making plays, are not making the tackle, are not forcing the play inside, et al, whatever their responsibility is - then you can say it is on the players.

But when a DC is putting his players in impossible situations, or such difficult situations that it is calling for the player to make a superhuman play - then there is something wrong with what the DC is doing.

As I said to Max - once in a while?? sure... it's gonna happen, and a defense is going to be out of position, or outschemed on a given play, etc; but we're not seeing a bad play call here and there, or a bad game plan on occassion, or a couple of bad games per season, etc. What we're seeing is a mess on just about every snap, in every game for the past 4 seasons.

And it is philosophical - Capers does not view controlling the LOS and being stout up the middle as being important, and it is painfully obvious. We are dead last in rush defense - and we have been utterly pathetic in just about every aspect of playing defense for years running now.

What Capers is doing is fundamentally unsound - I don't know how else to say it. If something is unsound - it will collapse; and that is what we've been witness to for the past 60 games or so... over and over again.

[3irty1]

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

[wist43]

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.

[pbmax]

I believe we heard afterward that Shields played it correctly, but I don't recall whether that was the official word or the word leaking out of the locker room. If it was the correct technique, then it puts the safety in a tough spot. And that may be why a Capers D needs vets. The safety, if we assume there is not supposed to be linebacker help, needs to read his first key and then the QB or the route. And I think it was single safety so he has a lot of ground to cover.

But that is just an evolutionary step to the game between defense and offense. The Packers had engineered a single high safety defense committed to stopped Lynch to the strong side of the offense. Seattle found a way to pull the linebackers into the LOS with a play fake (the read option) and when they or the safety bite, he rolls out to run or pass. They get to isolate a player, make him choose and then take advantage of the choice. You won't see that D against that personnel formation again.

Georgia did the same thing to Alabama the previous year. Saban is not a man given to designing unsound defenses but he got caught by the same damn play. The play is indicative only of the offense getting a one play advantage over the D.

Much more problematic are two other questions wist asks, both of which are tangentially related to this play.

1. Are Capers defenses regularly over engineered to stop certain kinds of plays and therefore constantly vulnerable to counters?

2. Does the over-engineering come from Capers tendency to be a Mad Scientist or because he is covering flaws in his defense? I know Capers board and internet rep is that of mad scientist, but he isn't Ryan or Gregg Williams. He does design new blitzes, but his most common calls are pretty standard stuff. He does not invent new defenses every week. He tweaks assignments. He follows McCarthy's dictates that he change the strength of his D by substituting personnel rather than invent a new scheme. *

I think he is covering for flaws. The switch to the 4-3 and the new bodies on the line have introduced new variability that is hard to account for and Fritz could be right, they may want more penetration though I am not sure. But just as gap discipline was great to start the year last year, its been piss poor this year. And it is often, though not limited to, the middle of the defense. Now the why they can't be consistent is troubling.

* I would bet that whatever threshold the D staff changed after '09 (down and distance and tendency) to determine when to use nickel rather than base happened at McCarthy's urging. He figured they would always be in shootouts so play pass defense first. So put the nickel group in earlier to counter it. As for new schemes, we have seen Psycho and amoeba defense, but that is just window dressing on a standard pass D or fire zone, making the O line guess who and how many are coming. That is less scheme and more personnel to me.

I don't like Offensive based HCs telling their defense what to scheme. Scout, hand over confidential data? Sure. But don't muck up the works with new top-down edicts. The defense is designed from the bottom up to adhere to principles and that informs everything from practice to play calls and player acquisition. When I watch the Packers D, I see a mishmash of junk and very few doing their job well. It doesn't look well organized at all in the front seven. Its the exact opposite of how the year started last year.

[3irty1]

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.

How long is several years? One? We had the 11th ranked defense in 2012. That's exaggerating. With you every success Capers has is attributed to the opposition's own incompetence or blind luck. Every one of your arguments is an absurd caricature of Capers painting him as a idiot who huffs paint until he's knee-walking stoned before calling every game. You make no effort to isolate him as the cause of any failures, instead just launch your daily witch hunt. Show me another professional defensive coordinator who is overcoming the dearth of talent we've had in the same places. Your assumptions on the players and their fit aren't shared by me. Am I just supposed to just believe you know better than Thompson as well as Capers? Because I don't.

What I think is you don't want to give Thompson his share of blame because he won't make a believable witch. Not many will call for Thompson's head because they know it'd be stupid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Same for MM, many of the players etc. A few of us on here care more about the truth than the sweet dopamine drip of indulging our god and martyr complexes.

[Carolina_Packer]

It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.

[ThunderDan]

It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.

I remember talking about the draft at the beginning of the TT era. We had 4 players with 4-8 years of NFL experience because of Sherman/Wolfe drafts. Those are the guys that are supposed to be your core.

Luckily now we have a lot more of those guys but a draft like 2012 can leave a hole in the roster in 4 or 5 years.

[wist43]

So dunderdummy actually earned his paycheck this week...

He bottled up the middle of the field - for the most part; blitzed and actually bothered to cover some receivers. To be sure Ponder helped a lot by missing open receivers, and not pulling the trigger when he needed to, but for the most part, our defense looked like an actual NFL defense for a change.

Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.

[Pugger]

So dunderdummy actually earned his paycheck this week...

He bottled up the middle of the field - for the most part; blitzed and actually bothered to cover some receivers. To be sure Ponder helped a lot by missing open receivers, and not pulling the trigger when he needed to, but for the most part, our defense looked like an actual NFL defense for a change.

Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.

So did his players. Its a wonder how good a D can look when they tackle and rush the passer. Let's hope we can do this again in Miami against Tannehill and friends.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Props to Capers and the D again. They dominated an inferior team as they should.

Now over the last 15 quarters, the defense has allowed 47 points. That's a rate of 12.5/game.

[Joemailman]

Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.

Wist, you must be a riot at a New Years Eve party: "Sure we're having fun tonight, but next year is gonna suck!" ;-)

[wist43]

Props to Capers and the D again. They dominated an inferior team as they should.

Now over the last 15 quarters, the defense has allowed 47 points. That's a rate of 12.5/game.

Geno Smith, Cutler being Cutler, and now Christian Ponder??

The only one I'll give them credit for is keeping Stafford in check, but I can't comment on that game from an x's and o's standpoint b/c we didn't get the game here, and I didn't see it - only saw the stat sheet, which looked good... except for the final score of course.

I knew you guys would come away from the bar and puff your chests out after we beat down a weak sister, lol...

At least we beat a team we were supposed to beat - more good news, Miami has a lousy QB and an overall lousy offense... Dom for Coach of the Year!!!

[Fritz]

Geno Smith, Cutler being Cutler, and now Christian Ponder??

The only one I'll give them credit for is keeping Stafford in check, but I can't comment on that game from an x's and o's standpoint b/c we didn't get the game here, and I didn't see it - only saw the stat sheet, which looked good... except for the final score of course.

I knew you guys would come away from the bar and puff your chests out after we beat down a weak sister, lol...

At least we beat a team we were supposed to beat - more good news, Miami has a lousy QB and an overall lousy offense... Dom for Coach of the Year!!!



I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.

I don't think anyone here is seeing last night's win for more than what it was - a nice win that showed improvements in some areas (the offense's running game, getting turnovers) and problems in other areas (the defense's run bulwark being soft at times). And I think we acknowledge that the Vikings' injuries and Ponder's putrid play should not be forgotten.

But it was a win. We hope that this will help the team's confidence and understanding of the schemes as they travel to Miami.

But your refusal to allow for any joy or any hope at all can seem suffocating. Man, enjoy the moment.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFXK37c3jYki6KyWKayd3DwufjsLVhW RT44zFKGWryei_T0YvW

[Maxie the Taxi]

Wist, you need to make a post to "Ask Vic" at Packers.com.

This what Vic had to say today:
Nobody’s complaining about Coach Capers today. I guess his schemes were pretty good last night. I especially liked the scheme in which Mike Daniels whips the guy across from him. That’s a great scheme.

[3irty1]

Ponder is such a pariah these days. I'm anxious to see Teddy too but not under those circumstances. That OL was miserable and Ponder's best throws were dropped.

[denverYooper]

Wist, you need to make a post to "Ask Vic" at Packers.com.

This what Vic had to say today:

"I especially liked the scheme in which Mike Daniels whips the guy across from him."

Fantastic

[Maxie the Taxi]

I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.


Is it just me, or do Hawk and Lattimore play deeper than most inside LB's? It seems they are always 5-6 yards behind the LOS. Maybe that accounts for the "running back push" you mentioned.

[Zool]

Is it just me, or do Hawk and Lattimore play deeper than most inside LB's? It seems they are always 5-6 yards behind the LOS. Maybe that accounts for the "running back push" you mentioned.

I've always assumed that's to allow them to not be completely out of position when the time comes for them to make a play. ILB play really appears to be the huge weak link in this D now. It's glaring.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I've always assumed that's to allow them to not be completely out of position when the time comes for them to make a play. ILB play really appears to be the huge weak link in this D now. It's glaring.

That's probably Dom's thinking. Compensating for their lack of speed (Hawk's) and inexperience (Lattimore). Look at game film from other teams and the inside backers are much closer to the LOS. They fill the gaps quicker. I'd move ours up a yard or two.

[Fritz]

Maybe the way they play they should play deeper than the safeties...

[Maxie the Taxi]

Maybe the way they play they should play deeper than the safeties...

LOL. Dom's probably got that alignment somewhere in his playbook!

[wist43]

I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.

I don't think anyone here is seeing last night's win for more than what it was - a nice win that showed improvements in some areas (the offense's running game, getting turnovers) and problems in other areas (the defense's run bulwark being soft at times). And I think we acknowledge that the Vikings' injuries and Ponder's putrid play should not be forgotten.

But it was a win. We hope that this will help the team's confidence and understanding of the schemes as they travel to Miami.

But your refusal to allow for any joy or any hope at all can seem suffocating. Man, enjoy the moment.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFXK37c3jYki6KyWKayd3DwufjsLVhW RT44zFKGWryei_T0YvW

I enjoyed the win... and I expect we'll look good next weak against another weak opponent.

I keep my eye on the big picture though... we don't need to beat Minnesota and Miami (of course we do, but big whoop) to win a championship, we need to beat Seattle, and Denver, and SF, etc.

Some of your brethren like to harken back to 2012 when we finished 12th in defense - doesn't mean much when you get completely blasted in the playoffs in embarrassing, demoralizing, 'somebody please stop the fight' fashion.

A win is great, and if it portends true change?? Then I'd be happy, but Dom is Dom... every PackerRat should be fully aware that he is entirely capable of coming out next week with an asinine game plan that gives up 600 yds, 40 pts, and adds up to a loss. That's who the guy is.

I need more than 1 game against a weak opponent before I start polishing laurels.

[3irty1]

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing but it seems Dom just doesn't like to show blitz in general. He'd rather blitz unexpectedly than drop into coverage unexpectedly. Maybe he doesn't think our guys are fast enough to hustle into a passing lane from the line. Maybe he thinks they aren't explosive enough to do damage without a head of steam. Maybe its to compensate for how slow developing the coverage can be in a zone blitz. Dunno.

[MadScientist]

The defense seems to be decent at shutting down one aspect of an offense. Last night they stuffed the run because, Ponder. Previous weeks they were focused on stopping the pass. The problem when the other team has a balanced attack (Sea, Chi) the defense looks bad. Those are games where they need to get a lead to force the other team into a pass centric game. It worked in Chicago, not so much in Seattle.

Either the personnel, or the scheme are deficient for a top defense.

[pbmax]

Is it just me, or do Hawk and Lattimore play deeper than most inside LB's? It seems they are always 5-6 yards behind the LOS. Maybe that accounts for the "running back push" you mentioned.

Yes, its part of the pass alignment, if you see them back there 6 yards deep, they are playing pass first.

[pbmax]

Ponder is such a pariah these days. I'm anxious to see Teddy too but not under those circumstances. That OL was miserable and Ponder's best throws were dropped.

How was their O line against non-Falcon defenses? Because my impression of them was that they weren't terrible. Prior to the game, anyway.

[pbmax]

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing but it seems Dom just doesn't like to show blitz in general. He'd rather blitz unexpectedly than drop into coverage unexpectedly. Maybe he doesn't think our guys are fast enough to hustle into a passing lane from the line. Maybe he thinks they aren't explosive enough to do damage without a head of steam. Maybe its to compensate for how slow developing the coverage can be in a zone blitz. Dunno.

They do play some bail coverage out of a pressure look, but I don't think that was the plan with Ponder or Bridgewater.

Last night they did bring two ILBs up to the A gap to threaten blitz and he usually sent just one, but there were occasions both went in a zone blitz.

[3irty1]

How was their O line against non-Falcon defenses? Because my impression of them was that they weren't terrible. Prior to the game, anyway.

I can't imagine coming off a whooping like that and then having Detroit's DL to look forward to.

[wist43]

Capers actually contested the LOS, and didn't give up the middle of the field much... he needs to do that every game - but of course we know he won't.

If he actually gameplanned to control the LOS and middle of the field like he did against the Vikings, I think we could have a good enough defense to contend. As I've said all along, I think we have the players to be good enough... it all comes down to dunderdummy.

This Vikings game is an example of the kind of defense we could have - but again, will we see it again?? Probably not - I chalk it up to a one-time gameplan, and next week we could be right back to complete disaster.

Until dunderdummy proves otherwise - he simply can't be trusted.

[gbgary]

good showing against a crippled team.

[Bretsky]

Rather than give Dom a backhanded compliment and then proceed to shred him wist....why cant you just simply give him credit for how he called the Vikings game ..

truth be told

he called a very nice game

[wist43]

Rather than give Dom a backhanded compliment and then proceed to shred him wist....why cant you just simply give him credit for how he called the Vikings game ..

truth be told

he called a very nice game

Really??

That would be like saying a wife beater aint a bad guy cause he brought flowers home last night...

You guys like being abused - then think it impolite if someone doesn't agree.

[sharpe1027]

Really??

That would be like saying a wife beater aint a bad guy cause he brought flowers home last night...

You guys like being abused - then think it impolite if someone doesn't agree.
No, it would be like saying giving flowers is a good thing.