Official Packers vs. Lions Discussion Thread

[Joemailman]

Lions favored by 1.

Lions defense has been outstanding against the run, allowing just 115 yards on 46 attempts.

Lions had 3 fumbles, and 3 turnovers last week.

Lions may again be forced to start a converted Guard Garrett Reynolds at RT.

Lions kicker, rookie Nate Freese, has made just 2-5 field goals.

Offensively, Lions are 4th in the NFL in passing yardage, but 28th in rushing with just 146 yards on 48 attempts.

Packers Wednesday Injury Report:

OT Bryan Bulaga - knee - limited
CB Casey Hayward - glute - DNP
S Micah Hyde - knee - limited
LB Brad Jones - thigh - DNP
LB Andy Mulumba - knee - out

Andy Mulumba is out for the year.

[hoosier]

Clearly Casey Hayward has not been doing his yoga. Good thing the Packers have depth at cornerback, too bad none of the other guys have been very good at creating turnovers. If the Packers can find a way to get Rodgers time he is going to light up the Lions secondary.

[Guiness]

Hayward's hamstring injury is now affecting his glute? Obviously the injury is heading North, he'll be dead of a brain hemorrhage before the year's out!

[3irty1]

If Blocktiari has a kryptonite, it seems to be in the possession of Ansah. In their first two meetings Ansah has 2.5 sacks. That's a matchup to watch.

The Lions have a zillion tight ends. Their move is to bring lots of big sets and pass from them. We'll need good games in coverage from our safeties and linebackers.

Although we're both on our 3rd RT, the Lions situation there is about 3x worse.

Between Stafford and Bells lubed up hands, turnovers vs the lions are a highly likely.

As poor as the last two matchups were, this is finally a great one IMO. Our strengths are passing and stopping the pass. Their strengths are passing and stopping the run.

This game is classic Packers vs Packers. We've just got to not screw it up.

[pittstang5]

Again, for the third time, the Packers face a stout front 7. Packers gotta find a way to get the running game going. Run Lacy between the tackles. I want to see him go north and south, NOT east and west. I don't care if it's for 1 or 2 yards. I'm tired of seeing him run east to west and get nothing or lose yardage. He's not built to do that. Leave the stretch plays for Harris. Throw Starks in there to mix it up. Oh, and run some damn screens with Harris - that will slow down pass rush.

Get the TEs involved!

On defense - Uh, we're pretty screwed if we don't pressure Stafford. He's got two good TEs, Megatron and Reggie Bush, who imo, is dangerous sneaking out of the backfield. You give Stafford time, he's gonna find the open man. The middle of the field, with those TEs is going to be a weakness for the Pack - it always has been since Capers came to town. I expect the Detriot TEs and Megatron to have a big day - hope I'm wrong. Pressure Stafford or at least keep him off balance - maybe we get lucky and grab a pick or two.

One good thing, at least we're not playing a mobile QB again.

[wist43]

45-31 Lions.

We won't be able to stop them - they'll struggle to stop us as well, but it's in their place; they're a much more physical team than we are; their secondary is terrible, but so is ours; their LB's are servicable, our's are complete junk; they can run the ball, we can't - at all.

The Lions have the advantage at the skill positions, and of the 4 lines, i.e. OL and DL's - the only unit that is any good is the Lions DL. They could have 28 pts by the time dunderdummy wakes up.

We need turnovers in able to be competitive with them... if they cough it up 3+ times, we might have a chance, otherwise we're going to be 1-2.

[Teamcheez1]

45-31 Lions.

We won't be able to stop them - they'll struggle to stop us as well, but it's in their place; they're a much more physical team than we are; their secondary is terrible, but so is ours; their LB's are servicable, our's are complete junk; they can run the ball, we can't - at all.

The Lions have the advantage at the skill positions, and of the 4 lines, i.e. OL and DL's - the only unit that is any good is the Lions DL. They could have 28 pts by the time dunderdummy wakes up.

We need turnovers in able to be competitive with them... if they cough it up 3+ times, we might have a chance, otherwise we're going to be 1-2.

Detroit hasn't run the ball any better than we have.
Our secondary is terrible?

Did you have your first cup of coffee before posting this morning?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Again, for the third time, the Packers face a stout front 7. Packers gotta find a way to get the running game going. Run Lacy between the tackles. I want to see him go north and south, NOT east and west. I don't care if it's for 1 or 2 yards. I'm tired of seeing him run east to west and get nothing or lose yardage. He's not built to do that. Leave the stretch plays for Harris. Throw Starks in there to mix it up. Oh, and run some damn screens with Harris - that will slow down pass rush.

Get the TEs involved!

On defense - Uh, we're pretty screwed if we don't pressure Stafford. He's got two good TEs, Megatron and Reggie Bush, who imo, is dangerous sneaking out of the backfield. You give Stafford time, he's gonna find the open man. The middle of the field, with those TEs is going to be a weakness for the Pack - it always has been since Capers came to town. I expect the Detriot TEs and Megatron to have a big day - hope I'm wrong. Pressure Stafford or at least keep him off balance - maybe we get lucky and grab a pick or two.

One good thing, at least we're not playing a mobile QB again.

I disagree completely...

On offense, I say we should rush the ball almost exclusively with Lacy and Harris running wide. You can't run through the Lions' fat guys so it just makes sense to run around them. Our TE's should help with this strategy by being blockers only (decoys). In fact, all our receivers should be decoys except Jordy who should be targeted exclusively for the two or three times Rodgers will have time to throw the ball.

Forget screens, traps and misdirection plays. The Lions' fat guys are smart too. Let's hope Fairley's bad bicep will have him on the bench like our fat guy.

And for God's sake don't activate Jeff Janis. The last thing we need against the Lion's porous but scrappy secondary is speed and Harvin-like option plays. The Lion's will see that coming a mile away.

On defense we should play all of our guys an equal amount of plays except Hawk who is the communicator and therefore needs to play 100% of the time. Besides, we need Hawk to shadow Reggie Bush one on one whenever Bush runs across the middle on slants.

The Lions OL is huge so we should only activate two DLinemen and all of our linebackers, safeties and cornerbacks. Capers should play his 4-3 amoeba defense 90% of the time. Plus, 80% of the time he should have less than 12 or 13 guys on the field. Confusing and out-thinking Stafford and the Lion's offense is our only hope.

To keep Megatron from making big plays, have our fast and quick cornerbacks play off him at the line because Megatron is so big and strong compared to fast and quick. Of course, Morgan Burnett and Ha Ha will play a deep (I mean DEEP) cover two in case Shields and Tramon lose coverage on the big guy.

Stubby has to keep his head in the game and be aggressive. That means he should stay in a secure undisclosed location incommunicado. Seriously, that means all onside kickoffs (the Lions won't be expecting that) and no punting whatsoever. Plus, the first couple of plays no matter who has the ball should be scripted challenges because Stubby's not too good at making challenges at the spur of the moment.

Then it's on to the Bears!

[Guiness]

I disagree completely...

A lot of food for thought there. Although I'm sure I don't know what you mean by 80% of the time he should have less than 12 or 13 guys on the field:?:

An interesting matchup will be the right side of the Detroit OL. Waddle (great name for a 330lb dude!) is hurt and not likely to play. They don't even have someone listed behind him on the dept chart, the backup RG started there last week. Peppers should have a field day, or they're going to have to permanently leave a TE or chip with a back, which should make the rest of the D's job easier.

[3irty1]

Poe's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)strikes again.

[denverYooper]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20131218/4927722/simpsons-sarcasm-detector-broken-o.gif

[wist43]

Detroit hasn't run the ball any better than we have.
Our secondary is terrible?

Did you have your first cup of coffee before posting this morning?

Detroit played Carolina last week... probably the best run defense in the NFL; and even though we faced 2 very tough run defenses - except for a stretch here and there, we haven't been able to run the ball for years.

I would have more confidence in our run game if it did not seem that MM had reverted to his norm, i.e. his 3 zone running plays; but alas, it would seem that he has. It will take him half the season to remember what file cabinet he stuffed those power running plays in - until then, we're gonna struggle... especially against a very stout Lions run defense.

As for our secondary - we played a very anemic passing offense in the Jets, and the Seahawks are very ordinary. Eric Decker broke free for an easy TD; Lockett might not score another TD his entire career... so based on past performance, and until our DB's prove they can hold their own - yes, our secondary sucks.

[Guiness]

Poe's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)strikes again.

Well, "Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook" [sic] and I'm not sure which Maxi is!

[Zool]

They can run the ball, we can't - at all.

Some of your takes are good. Sometimes it seems like you just say things in the hopes that you're right.

Run O
GB 43 att 160 yards
Det 48 att 148 yards

Run D
Seattle 58 att 181 yards 3.0 avg
Jets 37 att 105 yards 2.0 avg

NYG 58 att 200 yards 3.0 avg
Car 35 att 172 yards 4.0 avg

[hoosier]

45-31 Lions.

We won't be able to stop them - they'll struggle to stop us as well, but it's in their place; they're a much more physical team than we are; their secondary is terrible, but so is ours; their LB's are servicable, our's are complete junk; they can run the ball, we can't - at all.

The Lions have the advantage at the skill positions, and of the 4 lines, i.e. OL and DL's - the only unit that is any good is the Lions DL. They could have 28 pts by the time dunderdummy wakes up.

We need turnovers in able to be competitive with them... if they cough it up 3+ times, we might have a chance, otherwise we're going to be 1-2.

They'll struggle to stop us?!?!? What are you talking about, the Packers offense is the worst in the league. Any success it might have is the result of dumb luck or smoke and mirrors. The Packer QB and receivers are worse than its secondary. Oh, and the sky is falling---again!.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Well, "Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook" [sic] and I'm not sure which Maxi is!

LOL. I confess to being a sufficiently advanced (in age) kook!

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything pittstang wrote and pretty much the opposite of everything I wrote. :)

[3irty1]

They'll struggle to stop us?!?!? What are you talking about, the Packers offense is the worst in the league. Any success it might have is the result of dumb luck or smoke and mirrors. The Packer QB and receivers are worse than its secondary. Oh, and the sky is falling---again!.

I think MM should consider diplomacy for this one. Perhaps we can negotiate a tie. Anything to keep the soft delicate bodies of our players out of the ring with those physical Lions brutes.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I think MM should consider diplomacy for this one. Perhaps we can negotiate a tie. Anything to keep the soft delicate bodies of our players out of the ring with those physical Lions brutes.

Better to negotiate than to coach scared!

P.S. 3irty1, did you see Al Harris Jr. play yet for So. Carolina? I watched the game Saturday against Georgia and the kid played pretty good. Made a couple of big plays. He's gonna be a good one. I hope the Pack drafts him when he comes out.

[wist43]

Some of your takes are good. Sometimes it seems like you just say things in the hopes that you're right.

Run O
GB 43 att 160 yards
Det 48 att 148 yards

Run D
Seattle 58 att 181 yards 3.0 avg
Jets 37 att 105 yards 2.0 avg

NYG 58 att 200 yards 3.0 avg
Car 35 att 172 yards 4.0 avg

You can take 28 yds off of our 160 total, b/c those belong to Rodgers on scrambles. So that 160 is actually 132 yds. Lacy is averaging 3.1 yds/carry. I haven't watched every offensive snap this year, but I have yet to see MM run anything but his 3 default zone plays - maybe he has, and I missed them; but people tend to revert to their nature, and MM wants to run his beloved zone plays, and that is the extent of his run playbook. It must really chap his ass when he has to resort to calling power running plays.

And as I acknowledged, we have faced 2 of the toughest run defenses in the league.

As for Detroit... I expect they'll get it going. New coaching staff, don't know exactly what they've changed on offense - but Bush has been awful. I know he's been dealing with some soreness, but from what I saw of the Carolina game, they haven't been using him to his skill set - which Caldwell acknowledged in his presser.

Overall, at home?? Yes, Detroit is probably better than we are. I know that is sacireligous to say, but it is nonetheless a very supportable position.

Rodgers or no Rodgers, the last time we played them there - the stomped the living crap out of us 40-10, and the game wasn't even that close!!

And even if they are only favored by 1 - they are still favored. You guys act like it is insane to think we could lose to the Lions in Detroit :?:

[denverYooper]

Detroit played Carolina last week... probably the best run defense in the NFL; and even though we faced 2 very tough run defenses - except for a stretch here and there, we haven't been able to run the ball for years.

I would have more confidence in our run game if it did not seem that MM had reverted to his norm, i.e. his 3 zone running plays; but alas, it would seem that he has. It will take him half the season to remember what file cabinet he stuffed those power running plays in - until then, we're gonna struggle... especially against a very stout Lions run defense.

As for our secondary - we played a very anemic passing offense in the Jets, and the Seahawks are very ordinary. Eric Decker broke free for an easy TD; Lockett might not score another TD his entire career... so based on past performance, and until our DB's prove they can hold their own - yes, our secondary sucks.

Stretches like 2013, where they were 4th in the league with 4.7 ypc and the running game carried them for most of the season?

[hoosier]

I think MM should consider diplomacy for this one. Perhaps we can negotiate a tie. Anything to keep the soft delicate bodies of our players out of the ring with those physical Lions brutes.

I doubt the Lions would let him off the hook for anything less than a negotiated ten point loss. In reality that is a gift that MM should jump at. There are still 13 weeks left to be played, and this would be accepting the inevitable and avoiding a week's worth of season-ending injuries.

[Zool]

Overall, at home?? Yes, Detroit is probably better than we are. I know that is sacireligous to say, but it is nonetheless a very supportable position.

The next time Detroit wins a playoff game, it might supportable. Detroit is a mess in the secondary and their O-line is worse than the Packers O-line. They have the clear advantage on the DLine and TE, but where else?

Also, no you can't pick and choose what stats you use to support your theory. Fat Stafford has 10 yards on 5 carries and a TD so take that off the Detroit total then.

[wist43]

They'll struggle to stop us?!?!? What are you talking about, the Packers offense is the worst in the league. Any success it might have is the result of dumb luck or smoke and mirrors. The Packer QB and receivers are worse than its secondary. Oh, and the sky is falling---again!.

I have us putting up 31 pts against them... as for our defense against their offense?? Yes, we are better on defense this year from last - we're not running that idiotic 2-4 as our base; but, last year in their place??

We gave up 40 pts and 561 yds to them. 320 passing, 241 rushing.

I think it will be a much more competitive game - how can it not with Rodgers playing? Add Rodgers into the mix with an improved defense, and we're in the game, but I still think we lose.

If we can beat Detroit in Detroit?? Maybe it will indicate our arrow is pointing up, and we can make something of this season - but dunderdummy isn't at all trustworthy, and MM is very stubborn about his 3 zone running plays... so I think we struggle until those 2 get their shit together.

[wist43]

The next time Detroit wins a playoff game, it might supportable. Detroit is a mess in the secondary and their O-line is worse than the Packers O-line. They have the clear advantage on the DLine and TE, but where else?

Megatron is Megatron, and Stafford is a damn good QB. He can be up and down, but when he's on?? He'll light us up good... and Golden Tate is a very good WR2.

Add to their DL their LB's. I like Levy a lot... he's turned into a very good, very tough player. Their front seven as a whole is light years better than our - good enough to make the difference.

Yes they are a flawed team - but so are we. So there it is - who can mask their weaknesses, and take advantage of their strengths best is who will win. In their place?? I like them to beat us in a high scoring game.

Sans the Kool-aid, outside of Homerland?? That is a common take on this game.

[Guiness]

They'll struggle to stop us?!?!? What are you talking about, the Packers offense is the worst in the league. Any success it might have is the result of dumb luck or smoke and mirrors. The Packer QB and receivers are worse than its secondary. Oh, and the sky is falling---again!.

I looked for an old Tank McNamara comic where the Lions changed the game time but didn't tell the Bears. The Bears showed up at halftime, and the Lions were only up 21-0! *rofl*

[Zool]

Megatron is Megatron, and Stafford is a damn good QB. He can be up and down, but when he's on?? He'll light us up good... and Golden Tate is a very good WR2.

Add to their DL their LB's. I like Levy a lot... he's turned into a very good, very tough player. Their front seven as a whole is light years better than our - good enough to make the difference.

Yes they are a flawed team - but so are we. So there it is - who can mask their weaknesses, and take advantage of their strengths best is who will win. In their place?? I like them to beat us in a high scoring game.

Sans the Kool-aid, outside of Homerland?? That is a common take on this game.

Golden Tate is a mediocre #2 receiver IMO. Seattle let him walk without much of a struggle and they aren't exactly stacked at WR. Their #3 is Jeremy Ross? I'd take all of the Packers WRs over the Lions' except Johnson. Stafford is good, but not Rodgers good. Reggie Bush is who we've seen for 6-7 years now. Decent runner, good receiver. I'd take the GB RB group there, but not by much.

Hard to compare 3-4 (2-5, 1-6, amoeba...whatever) LBs to a 4-3 but as a group it's close I suppose. Give the Packers a good MLB and it's not nearly as close.

Packers secondary is better. I'm not sure even Lions fans would argue that.

You put a lot of stock in a team's Dline so that's probably your line of thinking on the matter?

[Harlan Huckleby]

How many NFL teams have two starters on the defensive line as bad as Datone Jones and Letroy Guion? I'm guessing none.

That said, I expect both those guys to get better through the season. And if Guion plateaus maybe Pennel can do the job by end of regular season.

[ThunderDan]

Rodgers or no Rodgers, the last time we played them there - the stomped the living crap out of us 40-10, and the game wasn't even that close!!

And even if they are only favored by 1 - they are still favored. You guys act like it is insane to think we could lose to the Lions in Detroit :?:

It is the Rodgers or no Rodgers comments that make the rest of what you write useless. You are so blind to what you want to see that you can't even admit that the Packers are a different team with ARod under center than Flynn.

Yes, last year we got our ass handed to us at DET. I would also submit that the Pack manhandled DET in GB earlier that year when we beat the Lions 22-9 and DET scored a TD at 2:06 in the fourth.

When we didn't have ARod we got killed (seemed to struggle big time last year without ARod) when DET didn't have Megatron they got killed. Stafford still was 25-40 for 262 and a TD (similar numbers to ARod that game).

[ThunderDan]

In 2013 Lacy ran for 99 yards in the first game against DET when DET had to respect the pass from ARod.
Lacy ran for 16 yards in the second game against DET when DET didn't have to respect the pass from Flynn.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers is 9-0 vs. Detroit (not including the game he was injured early). Hope it continues. We got killed without him. Wonder how Detroit would fare without Stafford.

[Maxie the Taxi]

In 2013 Lacy ran for 99 yards in the first game against DET when DET had to respect the pass from ARod.
Lacy ran for 16 yards in the second game against DET when DET didn't have to respect the pass from Flynn.

Plus, I think this was a "revenge" game for the Lions against Flynn for his record-breaking game against them in 2012.

[3irty1]

I doubt the Lions would let him off the hook for anything less than a negotiated ten point loss. In reality that is a gift that MM should jump at. There are still 13 weeks left to be played, and this would be accepting the inevitable and avoiding a week's worth of season-ending injuries.

If Pete Carroll were our coach he would get us a tie. McCarthy just doesn't care about hard bargaining at the negotiating table and always resorts to the same three finesse tactics. The Lions' best alternative to negotiation is to whoop our ass and create an unrealistic expectation of dominance for their city and fanbase. A principled negotiator should be able to anchor with that.

[wist43]

Golden Tate is a mediocre #2 receiver IMO. Seattle let him walk without much of a struggle and they aren't exactly stacked at WR. Their #3 is Jeremy Ross? I'd take all of the Packers WRs over the Lions' except Johnson. Stafford is good, but not Rodgers good. Reggie Bush is who we've seen for 6-7 years now. Decent runner, good receiver. I'd take the GB RB group there, but not by much.

Hard to compare 3-4 (2-5, 1-6, amoeba...whatever) LBs to a 4-3 but as a group it's close I suppose. Give the Packers a good MLB and it's not nearly as close.

Packers secondary is better. I'm not sure even Lions fans would argue that.

You put a lot of stock in a team's Dline so that's probably your line of thinking on the matter?

Their DL habitually bitch-slaps our OL ballarina dancers - that is a huge, huge problem for us.

All other things being pretty equal - yes, that is probably the difference.

[wist43]

It is the Rodgers or no Rodgers comments that make the rest of what you write useless. You are so blind to what you want to see that you can't even admit that the Packers are a different team with ARod under center than Flynn.

Yes, last year we got our ass handed to us at DET. I would also submit that the Pack manhandled DET in GB earlier that year when we beat the Lions 22-9 and DET scored a TD at 2:06 in the fourth.

When we didn't have ARod we got killed (seemed to struggle big time last year without ARod) when DET didn't have Megatron they got killed. Stafford still was 25-40 for 262 and a TD (similar numbers to ARod that game).

Arod makes a huge difference - he makes it a contest.

So instead of scoring 10 pts, I see us scoring about 31 against them... yes, he makes a huge difference.

Our defense is still our defense - even with the changes and improvements we've made from last year... dunderdummy is still our DC - best he can be is okay; worst he can be is disaster.

45-31 Lions.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Their DL habitually bitch-slaps our OL ballarina dancers

The Packer OL is not soft

[Tony Oday]

Their DL habitually STOMPS our OL ballarina dancers - that is a huge, huge problem for us.

All other things being pretty equal - yes, that is probably the difference.

There I fixed it, then they get the boot from the game and we still win.

[George Cumby]

How many NFL teams have two starters on the defensive line as bad as Datone Jones and Letroy Guion? I'm guessing none.

That said, I expect both those guys to get better through the season. And if Guion plateaus maybe Pennel can do the job by end of regular season.

Is D. Jones really that bad? I thought he was making strides?

[Fritz]

I don't agree with Wist's characterization of the Packer line as "ballerinas"; in the case of Bahkteria at LT I wish it were so. I'm afraid Ziggy Ansah is far too quick for Bahk, and it won't be long before MM will have to shift help over to the left side. That will leave Sherrod on an island, and that could be troublesome. At the least, it'll mean keeping more guys in to block, thus not allowing GB's superior receiving corps to take advantage of the weak Lion secondary.

The good news is that Ansah did not practice yesterday.

Who knows what the hell with happen? I am hoping that the Packer defense actually shows up, from the beginning of the game, this time. Another shitty performance from that unit and my hopes for this season will be severely deflated, because that'll mean MM's whole new emphasis is just a bag of hot air.

[Zool]

To piggy back on Fritz's idea, I hope the O and D show up at the start. This will be a shoot out.

[Fritz]

I will be anchored to my couch Sunday, my blood pressure skying. Especially when I watch the Packer defense.

[Tony Oday]

Stafford will be sacked 5 times

[Fritz]

That would be a recipe for a win, as long as the offense does its part. I hope you are right, TO.

[hoosier]

If Pete Carroll were our coach he would get us a tie. McCarthy just doesn't care about hard bargaining at the negotiating table and always resorts to the same three finesse tactics. The Lions' best alternative to negotiation is to whoop our ass and create an unrealistic expectation of dominance for their city and fanbase. A principled negotiator should be able to anchor with that.

Not the switch again!!!

[Freak Out]

No turnovers and the Packers win this.

[Carolina_Packer]

Clearly Casey Hayward has not been doing his yoga. Good thing the Packers have depth at cornerback, too bad none of the other guys have been very good at creating turnovers. If the Packers can find a way to get Rodgers time he is going to light up the Lions secondary.

Be a threat with the run game and Rodgers will have time too. Stay out of 3rd and longs, put their offense in 3rd and long and generate that pressure.

[smuggler]

The Packer OL is not soft

That's true. See sig.

[Rastak]

Football games are still going on? Well I'll be a son-of-a-bitch. I thought everything got canceled due to the lack of discussion about it in the media.


I think you guys beat the Lions but it's not going to a walk in the park........Vikings unlikely to beat the Saints despite a putrid defense.

[George Cumby]

Football games are still going on? Well I'll be a son-of-a-bitch. I thought everything got canceled due to the lack of discussion about it in the media.


I think you guys beat the Lions but it's not going to a walk in the park........Vikings unlikely to beat the Saints despite a putrid defense.

I take it you aren't jumping ship to our side of the fence?

[Rastak]

I take it you aren't jumping ship to our side of the fence?


I'm sure you considered leaving your squad when Davenport shit in the laundry basket but I ain't like that.

:wink:

[Fritz]

I'm sure you considered leaving your squad when Davenport shit in the laundry basket but I ain't like that.

:wink:

He did that in college. And it was kinda endearing, anyway. Gave new meaning to "Go, Pack, Go!"

[Rastak]

It was Fritz but it's a great story similar to the wizzinator so I use it when I can - but let's not derail the discussion. So how is the confidence in Michigan for Sundays game?

[KYPack]

I'm sure you considered leaving your squad when Davenport shit in the laundry basket but I ain't like that.

:wink:

Like Davenport's agent said, "he's leaving everything behind him".

Thx for the support, Rasta man. This would be a big win for us. We need all the division games in hand we can get.

[George Cumby]

Got a friend who's a die hard Lions fan. He's feeling pretty cocky right now. I'm talking The Lions up. Lulling him into a sense of false security.

[pbmax]

Rodgers is 9-0 vs. Detroit (not including the game he was injured early). Hope it continues. We got killed without him. Wonder how Detroit would fare without Stafford.

You gotta be careful with Detroit backup QB mojo. Shaun Hill and Orlovsky have looked good against the Packers.

Almost as potent as Indianapolis Paul Justins.

[Pugger]

I heard both Hayward and Hyde were full participants at practice yesterday but Bulaga was still limited.

[pbmax]

I heard both Hayward and Hyde were full participants at practice yesterday but Bulaga was still limited.

Yes.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Bryan Bulaga again in pads for the #Packers at tackle. Seemed to do a lot. McCarthy will be speaking later.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Brandon Bostick (fibula) in pads, participating in position drills during segment of practice open to media.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Also practicing for Green Bay was Casey Hayward (glute). Only players out: Brad Jones, Andy Mulumba.

[George Cumby]

You had to open THAT old wound?:lol::lol:

[denverYooper]

Yes.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Bryan Bulaga again in pads for the #Packers at tackle. Seemed to do a lot. McCarthy will be speaking later.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Brandon Bostick (fibula) in pads, participating in position drills during segment of practice open to media.

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne · 21h
Also practicing for Green Bay was Casey Hayward (glute). Only players out: Brad Jones, Andy Mulumba.

They're really providing a lot more detail in their injury reports now. They've got it down to specific bones and muscles instead of just "leg" and "ass".

[wist43]

Jones being out is addition by subtraction - now if we can only find a way to get Hawk off the field, we might be on to something.

Unfortunately - there is always dunderdummy :(

[wist43]

Rodgers is 9-0 vs. Detroit (not including the game he was injured early). Hope it continues. We got killed without him. Wonder how Detroit would fare without Stafford.

Is there any other team in the league that is as QB dependent as Green Bay??

It has never made sense to me that a team would have a philosophy which in effect says bad defense is acceptable, as long as it is supposedly predicated upon producing turnovers - and failing that, is to be bailed out by the QB.

The defense for bad defense is that our QB is awesome?? Seriously, that has never, ever made sense to me. Bad defense is bad defense.

I would rather have a defense that produces 0 turnovers per game, but forces 8 punts/game and only gives up 13 pts/game. This nonsense that says giving up 30 pts/game is okay, as long as you produce 3 TO's/game is mindboggling to me.

The Packer team philosphy that says bad defense is acceptable is why we can't compete - at all!!! - if our QB goes down. If our QB goes down, we are then stuck with that pathetic defense that can't keep you in games. Instead of being in a 13-10 game where you have chance, you're blown out 40-10.

[Maxie the Taxi]

wist, the thing I can't understand is this whole defensive play calling thing. Apparently, there are rules that only one guy on defense can wear the headset in his helmet. But then does that guy have to play all the snaps? What if he gets hurt?

In the first game Jones wore the headset and played every defensive down. In the second, Hawk wore it and played every down.

Is our defense so complicated and dependent on schemes and personnel groups that it would fall apart without communicating on the headset? Stubby is big on cross training guys, can't he have Burnett or Shields or Tramon or Matthews wear it and call defensive signals? Are we forever tied to Jones or Hawk?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Is there any other team in the league that is as QB dependent as Green Bay??

There are now probably three elite QBs (Manning, Rodgers, Brees), and all three of those teams are as dependent on that elite QB as the others. Pittsburgh is highly dependent on Big Ben too--as is San Diego with Rivers. After watching Brady the first two weeks, I'm leaning towards dropping him out of the elite category. His downfield passing ability has fallen off dramatically. It's true that there are some teams that have a good QB that are not as dependent on that QB (namely Seattle, San Fran, Carolina, maybe Cincinnati and Arizona), but those teams are about as scarce as teams with elite QBs. Those teams have arguably the five best defenses in football. Those teams have been fortunate that their QBs have mostly been playing on their rookie contracts--except for Arizona. Things are about to change there.

[3irty1]

Have you ever considered that the defense may not be intentionally faulty? Like what if Capers has never said "The goal is to give up 30 points this week" or "We're just not going to try controlling the line of scrimmage"? What if Thompson has never said "Lets pass on that guy, he's too physical for us"?

What if there are 31 other teams also trying to build the perfect defense and competing for all the same resources and even the most fortunate one still won't give up just 13 points per game?

And to answer your question yes there are other teams just as QB dependent. The Broncos, Bears, Giants, Steelers, Saints, and Patriots all come to mind. I'd wager nearly every team would also be smoldering heap of dysfunction after losing 20 million dollars worth of their best players.

[Zool]

Lions

[Cheesehead Craig]

There are now probably three elite QBs (Manning, Rodgers, Brees), and all three of those teams are as dependent on that elite QB as the others. Pittsburgh is highly dependent on Big Ben too--as is San Diego with Rivers. After watching Brady the first two weeks, I'm leaning towards dropping him out of the elite category. His downfield passing ability has fallen off dramatically. It's true that there are some teams that have a good QB that are not as dependent on that QB (namely Seattle, San Fran, Carolina, maybe Cincinnati and Arizona), but those teams are about as scarce as teams with elite QBs. Those teams have arguably the five best defenses in football. Those teams have been fortunate that their QBs have mostly been playing on their rookie contracts--except for Arizona. Things are about to change there.

Brady has no WR to throw to worth a damn. When Danny Amendola is your best WR, you've got problems. So I won't put him out of the elite category yet.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Brady has no WR to throw to worth a damn. When Danny Amendola is your best WR, you've got problems. So I won't put him out of the elite category yet.

I don't buy it. Edelman is their best receiver. He's pretty darn good--in the Welker mold. Gronk is back. Vereen is one of the best pass catching RBs in football. Dobson has talent--although he missed the first game. Amendola is a decent slot receiver. Wright caught 56 passes in Tampa Bay last year. While that's not the best receiving crops, he's not completely devoid of weapons.

[pbmax]

Pats have serious O line issues.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Pats have serious O line issues.

They shouldn't. They have a 4th year starter at LT, a third year starter at C, a fifth year starter at RG, and Vollmer at RT. Only Marcus Cannon is inexperienced, and they felt good enough about him to get rid of Mankins. I know they struggled against Miami, but teams have bad games. Brady barely got touched when he did drop back against Minnesota. I see a noticeable difference in Brady. It sucks because I thought he'd bounce back, and I drafted him my fantasy league. He's turned into a game manager because he's just not very good on the deep ball anymore.

[Striker]

Arod makes a huge difference - he makes it a contest.

So instead of scoring 10 pts, I see us scoring about 31 against them... yes, he makes a huge difference.

Our defense is still our defense - even with the changes and improvements we've made from last year... dunderdummy is still our DC - best he can be is okay; worst he can be is disaster.

45-31 Lions.

The entire problem with your take is that you discount certain facts.

The defense was on the field for 40 minutes of the game. The offense turned the ball over 3 times and only managed 126 total yards of offense despite the defense getting 2 picks and 2 fumble recoveries (one for a TD).

The Packers D actually came to play that game, but was completely hung out to dry by the offense.

So saying "oh, they put up 'x' yards" ignores the fact that the offense never moved the ball and based on TOP alone the Lions were bound to rack up monster numbers.

[Striker]

Here's what the offense did last year:

Punt, FG (after an out out of bounds KO), punt, punt, punt, punt, turnover, turnover, punt, punt, turnover.

Here's what the defense did:

Fumble Recovery, Allowed FG, Fumble Recovery for TD, Interception, Allowed TD, Allowed TD, Missed FG, Allowed TD, Interception, Punt, Allowed TD, Allowed TD, End of Game.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Anybody know who the Packer's activated to take Mulumba's spot?

[Cheesehead Craig]

I don't buy it. Edelman is their best receiver. He's pretty darn good--in the Welker mold. Gronk is back. Vereen is one of the best pass catching RBs in football. Dobson has talent--although he missed the first game. Amendola is a decent slot receiver. Wright caught 56 passes in Tampa Bay last year. While that's not the best receiving crops, he's not completely devoid of weapons.

I totally blanked on Edelman. That does improve things a bit.

[Joemailman]

Anybody know who the Packer's activated to take Mulumba's spot?

Nobody yet.

[Joemailman]

Questionable: RT Bryan Bulaga (knee), CB Casey Hayward (glute)
Probable: S Hyde (knee)
Out: ILB Brad Jones (quad)
OLB Andy Mulumba (knee)

[denverYooper]

Goddamn right Hayward needs some yoga. Every yoga instructor I've ever perved on seems like they've taken real good care of those glutes.

[pittstang5]

Questionable: RT Bryan Bulaga (knee), CB Casey Hayward (glute)
Probable: S Hyde (knee)
Out: ILB Brad Jones (quad)
OLB Andy Mulumba (knee)

So, Bulaga and Hayward won't be active on game day.

[pbmax]

So, Bulaga and Hayward won't be active on game day.

On the Packers, it does seem that questionable ranges from WILL play to WILL probably spend day in the hospital.

[wist43]

The entire problem with your take is that you discount certain facts.

The defense was on the field for 40 minutes of the game. The offense turned the ball over 3 times and only managed 126 total yards of offense despite the defense getting 2 picks and 2 fumble recoveries (one for a TD).

The Packers D actually came to play that game, but was completely hung out to dry by the offense.

So saying "oh, they put up 'x' yards" ignores the fact that the offense never moved the ball and based on TOP alone the Lions were bound to rack up monster numbers.

Seriously, you can't be saying that the Packers defensive performance last T-giving was due to a lack of TOP??

What of a game where 2 great defensive teams slug it out to a 6-3 score?? Each team forced 8 punts... is forcing punts so out of vogue that it is considered fascist now??

TOP matters to some extent at the end of the game - after the defense has been out there for 75 plays, but if they're in the 3rd quarter, and the opposing offense has only snapped the ball 53 times, and have already put up 35 pts?? You can't fall back on TOP as a defense for the defense.

Guys running wide open all over the field, huge holes that RB's are walking thru for big gains... we gave up 241 yds rushing in that game - that's HS stuff.

Go ahead and try to defend dunderdummy - he's all yours.

[wist43]

I looked it up - Detroit ran 21 plays in the 1st quarter. Drove the length of the field twice, only to be stymied by a Bush fumble; the 2nd drive ended at the beginning of the 2nd quarter with a Detroit FG. Nobody was gassed then - if they were, they're not in good enough shape to be playing in the NFL.

We produced 2 TO's in the 2nd quarter that produced our 10 pts - after that, it was complete Detroit domination in every phase of the game - including special teams.

I don't think anyone expected us to win that game - but you have to put up a fight... if not for them shooting themselves in the foot, the score at halftime would have been 31-0, and 31-0 would have been a more accurate indicator of just how dominant Detroit was on both sides of the ball.

Gassed defense had nothing to do with the 1st half.

[3irty1]

TOP isn't so much about being gassed on defense. If a team has the ball for a game and a half worth of offense, you'd expect them to put up a game and a half worth of points.

offense and defense are very connected.

[Striker]

Seriously, you can't be saying that the Packers defensive performance last T-giving was due to a lack of TOP??

What of a game where 2 great defensive teams slug it out to a 6-3 score?? Each team forced 8 punts... is forcing punts so out of vogue that it is considered fascist now??

TOP matters to some extent at the end of the game - after the defense has been out there for 75 plays, but if they're in the 3rd quarter, and the opposing offense has only snapped the ball 53 times, and have already put up 35 pts?? You can't fall back on TOP as a defense for the defense.

Guys running wide open all over the field, huge holes that RB's are walking thru for big gains... we gave up 241 yds rushing in that game - that's HS stuff.

Go ahead and try to defend dunderdummy - he's all yours.

The power of your arguments are further strengthened by implying those seeing what all went wrong with that game are "fascist". And Dunderdummy. What eloquence.

Turnovers are a part of the game. Personally I'll take them and/or punts just as long as the other team doesn't score.

And then you're nitpicking the FG. Detroit's first score of the game. The defense tightened up and allowed a FG, keeping the game entirely within reach. I'm not saying the defense would have been perfect, they probably still allow in the ballpark of 24-30 points, but by that point in the season we also knew that the defense couldn't be leaned on like in 2010 to win games. The offense didn't do their job (4 drives were under a minute), the defense bent and then broke.

And I'm not defending Capers. I was (and still am) ready for him to hit the trail last season. But I am defending the Packers prospects this year at Detroit against someone who seems to be the resident "chicken little" and is trying to justify a ludicrous prediction using what happened in a game last year without Rodgers, with two really terrible safeties, and half a Clay Matthews.

[Fritz]

I don't know what to think about this game. I was excited, prior to the season, by the additions on defense and the idea of actually trying to do something differently (though I never was nor am sure what the hell that "more personnel, fewer packages" thing was exactly about). But the team came out as flat as a flapper against the SeaShits and the Jest, and they still look like last year's defense.

To top it off, the offense is sporadic, and Lacy does not look like last year's rookie of the year. So I don't know.

That Lions defensive line is tough. That may be the key - if this Packer offensive line, which is supposed to be better than anything they've had for a few years - can control the LOS.

God I hope the defense plays well.

[Maxie the Taxi]

That Lions defensive line is tough. That may be the key - if this Packer offensive line, which is supposed to be better than anything they've had for a few years - can control the LOS.

God I hope the defense plays well.

The Packers only chance to control the LOS is their hurry up offense. I usually don't like it, but this Sunday I'd like to see Suh and company get no rest between plays. That along with some misdirection/Rodgers rolling out and the offense will be fine.

The defense is another story. Capers has to figure out how to get pressure on Stafford. If he has time to throw, we're in trouble.

[wist43]

The power of your arguments are further strengthened by implying those seeing what all went wrong with that game are "fascist". And Dunderdummy. What eloquence.

Turnovers are a part of the game. Personally I'll take them and/or punts just as long as the other team doesn't score.

And then you're nitpicking the FG. Detroit's first score of the game. The defense tightened up and allowed a FG, keeping the game entirely within reach. I'm not saying the defense would have been perfect, they probably still allow in the ballpark of 24-30 points, but by that point in the season we also knew that the defense couldn't be leaned on like in 2010 to win games. The offense didn't do their job (4 drives were under a minute), the defense bent and then broke.

And I'm not defending Capers. I was (and still am) ready for him to hit the trail last season. But I am defending the Packers prospects this year at Detroit against someone who seems to be the resident "chicken little" and is trying to justify a ludicrous prediction using what happened in a game last year without Rodgers, with two really terrible safeties, and half a Clay Matthews.

Your attempted defense of our defense against the Lions in last year's 40-10 debacle is sorely lacking.

You said our defense wore down b/c the offense couldn't keep the ball - I showed how we gave up 169 yds and almost the entire 1st quarter of TOP - so you don't want to talk about that anymore??

Your argument that the defense wore down b/c of poor offense is off the table. They had the ball for 10:57 in the first quarter - not b/c of our offense, but b/c the defense couldn't get off the field. We got the fumble on the opening drive, but only after they drove 69 yds, and took 5:24 off the clock.

Were they jetlagged from the 16 hour flight over to Detroit??

Then on the second drive - that you celebrate ending in only a FG - they drove 80 yds and took another 5:33 off the clock.

Here are the running plays up the middle in the 1st Quarter:

1st and 10 at DET 45
J.Bell up the middle to DET 49 for 4 yards

1st and 10 at GB 34
J.Bell up the middle to GB 26 for 8 yards

2nd and 9 at GB 21
(Shotgun) R.Bush up the middle to GB 12 for 9 yards

1st and 10 at GB 12
(Shotgun) R.Bush up the middle to GB 9 for 3 yards (fumble)

Next drive, 1st Quarter

1st and 15 at DET 6 (after a Detroit holding penalty)
R.Bush up the middle to DET 19 for 13 yards

2nd and 2 at DET 19
J.Bell left tackle to DET 31 for 12 yards

(First and 15 from their 6 yd line, and we give up back-to-back runs for 25 yds??) What's wrong with that picture??

Some great defensive plays in the 2nd Quarter??

3rd and 1 at DET 32
J.Ross right end to GB 44 for 24 yards

3rd and 4 at DET 21
(Shotgun) M.Stafford pass deep left to R.Bush to GB 47 for 32 yards

2nd and 3 at GB 5
M.Stafford pass short middle to J.Ross for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN

2nd and 1 at GB 24
R.Bush up the middle to GB 1 for 23 yards (S.Shields; M.Burnett).

1st and 1 at GB 1
R.Bush left end for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The offense was putrid, and we were never going to win that game; but the defense was equally putrid from the first snap to the last.

[pbmax]

From this Tanier preview (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2204066-nfl-week-3-picks-cousins-skepticism-seahawks-exposure), I noticed some things don't change.


New kicker Nate Freese has missed all three of his field-goal attempts beyond 30 yards, and Jeremy Ross fumbled a kickoff return.

[Tony Oday]

They have a great d line but do they have the depth to play the whole game in hurry up?

[Maxie the Taxi]

They have a great d line but do they have the depth to play the whole game in hurry up?

My thought exactly. Wear their fat guys out. The guy I'm really worried about is Levy. http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-offense-must-plan-for-deandre-levy-b99354839z1-275864021.html

He's a game changer. Too bad the Packers don't do a better job of scouting players right in their own back yard.

[Striker]

Your attempted defense of our defense against the Lions in last year's 40-10 debacle is sorely lacking.

You said our defense wore down b/c the offense couldn't keep the ball - I showed how we gave up 169 yds and almost the entire 1st quarter of TOP - so you don't want to talk about that anymore??

Your argument that the defense wore down b/c of poor offense is off the table. They had the ball for 10:57 in the first quarter - not b/c of our offense, but b/c the defense couldn't get off the field. We got the fumble on the opening drive, but only after they drove 69 yds, and took 5:24 off the clock.

Were they jetlagged from the 16 hour flight over to Detroit??

Then on the second drive - that you celebrate ending in only a FG - they drove 80 yds and took another 5:33 off the clock.

Here are the running plays up the middle in the 1st Quarter:

1st and 10 at DET 45
J.Bell up the middle to DET 49 for 4 yards

1st and 10 at GB 34
J.Bell up the middle to GB 26 for 8 yards

2nd and 9 at GB 21
(Shotgun) R.Bush up the middle to GB 12 for 9 yards

1st and 10 at GB 12
(Shotgun) R.Bush up the middle to GB 9 for 3 yards (fumble)

Next drive, 1st Quarter

1st and 15 at DET 6 (after a Detroit holding penalty)
R.Bush up the middle to DET 19 for 13 yards

2nd and 2 at DET 19
J.Bell left tackle to DET 31 for 12 yards

(First and 15 from their 6 yd line, and we give up back-to-back runs for 25 yds??) What's wrong with that picture??

Some great defensive plays in the 2nd Quarter??

3rd and 1 at DET 32
J.Ross right end to GB 44 for 24 yards

3rd and 4 at DET 21
(Shotgun) M.Stafford pass deep left to R.Bush to GB 47 for 32 yards

2nd and 3 at GB 5
M.Stafford pass short middle to J.Ross for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN

2nd and 1 at GB 24
R.Bush up the middle to GB 1 for 23 yards (S.Shields; M.Burnett).

1st and 1 at GB 1
R.Bush left end for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The offense was putrid, and we were never going to win that game; but the defense was equally putrid from the first snap to the last.

First, TOP covers the entire game. I never singularly pointed out the first half. Overall the defense kept the game "manageable" and then everything went further to hell (plus, if the offense actually did something with one of their possessions beyond 3 and out maybe the defense "looks" better).

Oh, and let's try this whole "reading comprehension" thing.


I'm not saying the defense would have been perfect, they probably still allow in the ballpark of 24-30 points, but by that point in the season we also knew that the defense couldn't be leaned on like in 2010 to win games. The offense didn't do their job (4 drives were under a minute), the defense bent and then broke.

We saw the Jekyll/Hyde nature of that defense all that season. They'd show bursts of brilliance mired in runs of absolute mediocrity. Despite the offense generating a grand total of 3 points that half, they still "held" the Lions to 17 points despite the offense doing next to nothing. That being said, my main point is still along the lines of "trying to justify a ludicrous prediction using what happened in a game last year without Rodgers, with two really terrible safeties, and half a Clay Matthews." is crazy.

[Carolina_Packer]

That Lions defensive line is tough. That may be the key - if this Packer offensive line, which is supposed to be better than anything they've had for a few years - can control the LOS.

I think this was the evaluation during training camp before Barclay went down, then Tretter went on IR DTR, Bulaga got dinged in the first game and the Pack was forced to see how Sherrod would do as depth. If Barclay doesn't go down, perhaps Sherrod isn't even with the team anymore. The group went from being encouraging to having some quesiton marks. Linsley has been OK overall. It's RT that where depth has been tested to the max.

[Fritz]

I think this was the evaluation during training camp before Barclay went down, then Tretter went on IR DTR, Bulaga got dinged in the first game and the Pack was forced to see how Sherrod would do as depth. If Barclay doesn't go down, perhaps Sherrod isn't even with the team anymore. The group went from being encouraging to having some quesiton marks. Linsley has been OK overall. It's RT that where depth has been tested to the max.


I'm going to guess that the Packers play it their usual conservative way, and both Bulaga and Hayward will not play. This means it's time for Sherrod to prove he can play in the NFL.

I think the Lions feel a stronger sense of desperation, so I believe their "questionables" will be active.

I was reading the Detroit Free Press about this game, and their so-called experts are picking the Packers to win. But what really caught my eye was this analysis of the Packer secondary: "Green Bay has one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL, but a suspect defense that's thin in the secondary ."

Whoa. This coming from a writer who sees, daily, the Lion's secondary, which lists the top three slot cornerbacks as out, and the offseason acquisition at safety, Idhegibo (sp?) as questionable.

Fairley is listed as having a biceps issue, and Ansah is also questionable. I don't know it all that will have an impact. But Bahkteria and the whole line need to have a really good game. It could make the difference.

And I am curious to see if the damn defense plays any better this week. It's time to show some sense of improvement, no? If they can sustain what they started against the Jest after that stupid first quarter-and-change, then good. If Stafford starts out tearing them up, I might just cry.

[pbmax]

Sherrod has had trouble on the road with noise. How loud does the stadium get Fritz?

[Fritz]

It's madness, PB. I saw the Lions/Bears Monday night two years ago, and it was the loudest place I've ever been in my life, period. Sporting events, concerts, women screaming in my ear. Ever.

If it goes the Lions' way early, it will be impossible for the offense to hear anything at all.

[pbmax]

It's madness, PB. I saw the Lions/Bears Monday night two years ago, and it was the loudest place I've ever been in my life, period. Sporting events, concerts, women screaming in my ear. Ever.

If it goes the Lions' way early, it will be impossible for the offense to hear anything at all.

Maybe that is why Bulaga is healthy.

Just looked this up conversing with Red, Football Oustiders ranks of Team Units

Overall: Packers 12th (+10.0), Lions 7th (+23.8)

Offense: Packers 11th (+10.7), Lions 8th (+11.8)

Defense: Packers 23 (+9.0), Lions 3rd (-25.2) - ratings in terms of offensive success, so positive D ratings are bad

Slocum: Packers 2nd (+8.5), Lions 31st (-13.2)

[red]

i don't see how our ST can be ranked that high. anyone who's actually watched them knows they sucks

guess football outsiders considers kick returns to the 10 or 15 to be positive plays

or shanked punts, or dumb running into the punter penalties

[pbmax]

i don't see how our ST can be ranked that high. anyone who's actually watched them knows they sucks

guess football outsiders considers kick returns to the 10 or 15 to be positive plays

or shanked punts, or dumb running into the punter penalties

Who had better special teams today? Ross had two good returns but otherwise it was the Packers. Plus their kicker isn't helping.

[red]

well cobb had one good return. harris had one that didn't suck to the 25

other then that, the difference would be that our kicker didn't miss any FG's, because he didn't get to attempt any

[red]

KO returns

harris 2 at 24 and 26
ross 2 for 22, and 34

punt returns

cobb 2 of 0 and 22
ross 2 of 4 and 12

punting

masthay 5 punts 39.8 average long of 48 two punts inside the 20
martin, 2 punts for 40.5 average long of 55, 1 inside the 20

kicking

crosby 0/0 fgs, 1/1 xps
freese 1/2 and 2/2

so if anything, our st's were slightly better. which still isn't saying a whole lot