Time to Scrap the No Huddle?

[Striker]

A lot of the articles I read on the no huddle (and the frequency that the Packers use it) implies that pretty much everything is in Rodgers' hands when they're running it.

It's safe to say that in all three games, it seems that the no huddle is a flop.

From the Jets game report last week:


The Packers hope to run 75 plays per game – faster than they’ve ever been under ninth-year coach Mike McCarthy, who said in the offseason that he wanted to make a concerted effort to increase his offense’s tempo.

Green Bay has gradually increased its pace in recent years. In 2010, when the Packers won the Super Bowl, they ran 62.5 plays per game. That number dipped to 61.8 in 2011. The Packers leaned more on no-huddle plays in the next two years, during which they averaged 65.1 and 67.1 plays per game – 11th in the NFL last year.

More NFL teams are moving faster these days, especially franchises that have elite quarterbacks like Rodgers. In 2012, Tom Brady and the Patriots led the league with 74.4 plays per game. In 2013, they were second, with 71.1, and Denver and Peyton Manning topped the list, with 72.3 plays per game.

Taking into account offensive time of possession, the Patriots last season ran 2.34 plays per minute of possession time. The Packers ran 2.17. The Jets’ defense got experience against this break-neck pace while splitting their meetings with the Patriots in 2013.

Incidentally, the Packers near unstoppable offense ran at a slower pace than the following two years.

I know personnel are different, and maybe I'm way way off here, but maybe McCarthy needs to take the playcalling back on the sideline and scrap the no huddle?

And maybe worry less about the volume of plays you get in, but rather the quality? 70+ plays a game is great, but I'd rather they do 60 plays, score points, eat up clock, and be intelligent than try to burn through it as fast as possible.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think problem is pace or play calling. It's talent. Try Janis instead of Boykin?

[Tony Oday]

It's AR not hitting throws, Lacy dancing and not one cut running and the WE, save Jordy, sucking.

[Carolina_Packer]

You mean it's players and not plays (scheme)? Hmm...:-) AR has less guys he can trust right out of the gate this year. Say what you want about their contributions, but James Jones and Jermichael Finley were vets who had played with Rodgers and knew his tendencies, knew the playbook. Our top two WR have that, but beyond that, who? Jordy has been great, Cobb off to a slow start, and Boykin needs some stickum. Quarless has been decent, but their resolve to use TE (especially against Cover 2) has been inconsistent. We have gotten a little contribution beyond that from Adams, but this is far from the deep stable of weapons that has chemistry with Rodgers. It's the running game, MM. Fix it, fix it, fix it! It's a down and distance battle and the Packers can't consistently win in unfavorable down and distances. Come on MM...adjust!

[Joemailman]

I think they do need to scrap the no-huddle for the time being. With the loss of James Jones and Finley, they need production from Adams and R. Rodgers. I think going no-huddle is overwhelming guys who are still trying to learn the offense. The no-huddle may be why they haven't even activated Janis yet. A non-productive no-huddle is at times giving the defense very little time to rest.

[pbmax]

Either McCarthy or Rodgers can call the plays in the no-huddle. McCarthy said yesterday they let Rodgers call more plays in the 2nd half.

[Ballboy]

The game plan stunk up the place yesterday...MM was horrible. For the first time that I can remember, I think the whole coaching staff has "lost" this team.

Going into the game, we knew a few things. First, Lions had the 2nd best RUSH defense in the league. Second, the secondary was/is bad with two people just added to the team this past week. Lastly, our OL was going to struggle against the Lions.

As the game went on, the Lions even lost their MLB.

MM out thought himself. He was hell bent on rushing the ball for two reasons, to keep his defense off the field and to slow down the pass rush. What did this cause? Multiple times we were in 3rd and longer,which only increased the ability of the Lions pass rush.

AR should've thrown that ball all OVER the field....teams that cant rush the ball use WR screens, quick slants and short passes to slow down the pass rush.

On a side note, it amazes me that Calvin Johnson seems to be so wide open yesterday against our "better" DBs...yet Jordy Nelson and company have DBs draped all over them all day....why is this?

[mission]

When's the last time you've seen a bunch formation or even some motion from this offense? MM is just not creative at all. Philly has average WRs at best and they seem to have no problem getting open. There's a huge difference between scheme and play calling and I put it more on scheme. MM still thinks it's 2011.

[pbmax]

They ran a WR screen that I remember. The ball was behind the receiver, causing a delay and a short block attempt rendered it a short gain.

He has not been his normal accurate self.

[call_me_ishmael]

When's the last time you've seen a bunch formation or even some motion from this offense? MM is just not creative at all. Philly has average WRs at best and they seem to have no problem getting open. There's a huge difference between scheme and play calling and I put it more on scheme. MM still thinks it's 2011.

Pretty much this. The offense, at least from my limited perspective, seems very bland. Philly does a bunch of interesting things to create space. Either we don't do it as much, we do it differently, or I'm missing it in games.

[Maxie the Taxi]

There are some excellent and truthful posts in this thread. Normally I'm an establish-the-rush-then-pass type of guy. But against Detroit??????

Stubby strikes again.

Misdirection is all the rage this year. Look at Seattle in our first game. It puts a huge amount of pressure on any defense. Stubby runs virtually none of it. A fast guy like Janis would be perfect but no......

Lastly, I agree with the comments about junking the no huddle. I thought it might make for a good equalizer against Detroit. But they way ARod and Stubby run it ... with all the adjustments checkoffs and hand signals ... the play clock runs down on each play. On top of that, guys are misreading hand signals when they could be really communicating in the huddle.

Really lastly, I think Stubby has lost his nerve this year. He's playing way too conservative, trying to avoid mistakes and playing it safe (except for his insane 4th down attempts). The Lacey safety play was a perfect example. I know Bart Starr would have been thinking pass in that situation, and he had Hornung and Taylor in the backfield and a Hall of Fame OL.

Stubby's capable of change but he's like a mule. You might have to get his attention first by cracking a 2x4 over his head.

[Striker]

I don't think problem is pace or play calling. It's talent. Try Janis instead of Boykin?

I think it's both. They probably withhold the rooks because of how "complicated" all the hand signals and such from the no huddle are. Get in a huddle, get the communication down, and just get the offense humming again.

[MadScientist]

Lastly, I agree with the comments about junking the no huddle. I thought it might make for a good equalizer against Detroit. But they way ARod and Stubby run it ... with all the adjustments checkoffs and hand signals ... the play clock runs down on each play. On top of that, guys are misreading hand signals when they could be really communicating in the huddle.

Really lastly, I think Stubby has lost his nerve this year. He's playing way too conservative, trying to avoid mistakes and playing it safe (except for his insane 4th down attempts). The Lacey safety play was a perfect example. I know Bart Starr would have been thinking pass in that situation, and he had Hornung and Taylor in the backfield and a Hall of Fame OL.

Stubby's capable of change but he's like a mule. You might have to get his attention first by cracking a 2x4 over his head.

If the rookies aren't getting the hand signals right, better do something else that works.

Letting the play clock run down is ok, this version of the no-huddle is not the same as a hurry-up. Time taken on the line still prevents defensive substitutions. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what personnel the defense gets stuck with, they are still winning the matchups with the Packers. That is the biggest problem.

I'm not sure MM is too conservative, but with the OL a complete fail (as always, maybe this will be the 2x4 to get MM to fire Campen), and receivers not named Jordy sucking, he can't do a whole lot when backed up. I really wish they'd put back some old west-coast short timing passes.

If this offensive shit-fest isn't a 2x4 to the head, I don't know what would be.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If the rookies aren't getting the hand signals right, better do something else that works.

Letting the play clock run down is ok, this version of the no-huddle is not the same as a hurry-up. Time taken on the line still prevents defensive substitutions. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what personnel the defense gets stuck with, they are still winning the matchups with the Packers. That is the biggest problem.

I'm not sure MM is too conservative, but with the OL a complete fail (as always, maybe this will be the 2x4 to get MM to fire Campen), and receivers not named Jordy sucking, he can't do a whole lot when backed up. I really wish they'd put back some old west-coast short timing passes.

If this offensive shit-fest isn't a 2x4 to the head, I don't know what would be.

I agree, especially with the short timing passes. However, does the OL give our RB enough time to release over the middle?

As far as being conservative, well Stubby's decision to come out and establish the run against Detroit's defense was either foolhardy or, as pbmax suggests, an attempt to avoid Rodgers getting run over by the pass rush. I tend to believe it's both and that is playing conservative, i.e., not playing to your strength.

[3irty1]

If your team isn't playing well on either offense or defense, I think the no huddle should be the first thing to go. No matter what's not working by going no huddle you'll pay for it in time of possession.

[denverYooper]

Baranczyck sees the no-huddle problem as poor TE play, especially by Richard Rodgers:
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/columnists/baranczyk/2014/09/22/packers-offensive-woes-start-at-tight-end/16083759/

To be fair he faults Aaron Rodgers some for not throwing to Richard Rodgers at all, and echoes McGinn in citing Aaron's risk-aversion as problematic at times for the offensive woes.

[Carolina_Packer]

Baranczyck sees the no-huddle problem as poor TE play, especially by Richard Rodgers:
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/columnists/baranczyk/2014/09/22/packers-offensive-woes-start-at-tight-end/16083759/

To be fair he faults Aaron Rodgers some for not throwing to Richard Rodgers at all, and echoes McGinn in citing Aaron's risk-aversion as problematic at times for the offensive woes.

Good read. I wonder whatever happened to Ryan Taylor's development. I recall him doing a bit of pass catching maybe two years ago. Not a lot, but some. He's known for being good on special teams, but if he can block, I wonder why they don't bring him in on obvious running situations and sneaky use him as a pass catcher. I've seen him make some decent catches. Perhaps Bostick can get healthy again and provide some help in the middle of the field against the two deep safety look.

[Pugger]

The game plan stunk up the place yesterday...MM was horrible. For the first time that I can remember, I think the whole coaching staff has "lost" this team.

Going into the game, we knew a few things. First, Lions had the 2nd best RUSH defense in the league. Second, the secondary was/is bad with two people just added to the team this past week. Lastly, our OL was going to struggle against the Lions.

As the game went on, the Lions even lost their MLB.

MM out thought himself. He was hell bent on rushing the ball for two reasons, to keep his defense off the field and to slow down the pass rush. What did this cause? Multiple times we were in 3rd and longer,which only increased the ability of the Lions pass rush.

AR should've thrown that ball all OVER the field....teams that cant rush the ball use WR screens, quick slants and short passes to slow down the pass rush.

On a side note, it amazes me that Calvin Johnson seems to be so wide open yesterday against our "better" DBs...yet Jordy Nelson and company have DBs draped all over them all day....why is this?

Because Megatron is the best WR in the game today. Plus he has a decided height advantage over our guys (and most DBs in the league). Jordy is a great WR but he isn't in Johnson's league. Maybe only one or two others are.

[Pugger]

They ran a WR screen that I remember. The ball was behind the receiver, causing a delay and a short block attempt rendered it a short gain.

He has not been his normal accurate self.

No, for some reason AR was not his usual otherworldly self. He wasn't too bad last week. Let's hope the bares lousy D is just the elixir we need to get our offense going this Sunday.

[Pugger]

There are some excellent and truthful posts in this thread. Normally I'm an establish-the-rush-then-pass type of guy. But against Detroit??????

Stubby strikes again.

Misdirection is all the rage this year. Look at Seattle in our first game. It puts a huge amount of pressure on any defense. Stubby runs virtually none of it. A fast guy like Janis would be perfect but no......

Lastly, I agree with the comments about junking the no huddle. I thought it might make for a good equalizer against Detroit. But they way ARod and Stubby run it ... with all the adjustments checkoffs and hand signals ... the play clock runs down on each play. On top of that, guys are misreading hand signals when they could be really communicating in the huddle.

Really lastly, I think Stubby has lost his nerve this year. He's playing way too conservative, trying to avoid mistakes and playing it safe (except for his insane 4th down attempts). The Lacey safety play was a perfect example. I know Bart Starr would have been thinking pass in that situation, and he had Hornung and Taylor in the backfield and a Hall of Fame OL.

Stubby's capable of change but he's like a mule. You might have to get his attention first by cracking a 2x4 over his head.

But do we know how often Rodgers is changing the play that MM called at the LOS?

[Maxie the Taxi]

But do we know how often Rodgers is changing the play that MM called at the LOS?

No, we don't know, but either way the result is the same. If it's not on Stubby, it's on ARod.

[mmmdk]

In week Seattle ran 66 play, in week 2 NY Jets ran 71 plays and in week 3 Detroit ran 74 plays. Somehow the Packers defense got an 'OK' report in week three even though the Lions totally controlled the hapless Packers defense - the D got toyed with again (stats don't lie). Packers D is getting killed on third downs again this season.

So yes, it's time the Packers offense got away from speeding things up too much as the defense can't stop opponent sufficiently on third downs and are easy to control. It would take a whole lot of turnovers to make up for the lack of talent on Packers D...especially the front seven. And having a bad front seven won't help the secondary much. Alas, won't help create turnovers.

Now the lame bickering between Stubby & AR is not helping but I guess both have a point. What none of them mentions is that the Packers OL, is yet AGAIN, among the worst talented in the NFL.

And please stop turning AR into the next BF miracle-do-it-all-gunslinger...oh, sorry, that's already happened. Until next season then - hopefully Packers won't waste yet another HOF caliber QBs career surrounded with mediocre talent! :lol:

[Carolina_Packer]

And please stop turning AR into the next BF miracle-do-it-all-gunslinger...oh, sorry, that's already happened. Until next season then - hopefully Packers won't waste yet another HOF caliber QBs career surrounded with mediocre talent! :lol:

Wouldn't most of the talent that surrounds Rodgers be mediocre by comparison?

[Fritz]

Because Megatron is the best WR in the game today. Plus he has a decided height advantage over our guys (and most DBs in the league). Jordy is a great WR but he isn't in Johnson's league. Maybe only one or two others are.


To me, what makes Calvin Johnson the best wide receiver in the game is that he is 6'5" and can catch balls when he's got guys draped all over him. He's a good route runner, but no better than Jordy. So the question remains: how did Johnson get so, so open, and Nelson not?

Lots of good posts in this thread. I want to add one bit: I wonder if Rodgers is getting too insulated, too cocky. He seems so damn arrogant on the field, and by that I mean that when a pass isn't completed, he often gesticulates angrily at his receiver about it. He kinda shows guy up on the field, and that's not cool. How about if Jordy gestured angrily at Rodgers for missing on that fourth down pass? I think Rodgers is maybe getting too much of a free pass from his coaches and teammates.

[MadScientist]

To me, what makes Calvin Johnson the best wide receiver in the game is that he is 6'5" and can catch balls when he's got guys draped all over him. He's a good route runner, but no better than Jordy. So the question remains: how did Johnson get so, so open, and Nelson not?

CJ had 10 targets, 6 catches for 82 yards, no TD's and a long of 26.

JN had 7 targets, 5 catches for 59 yards, no TD's and a long of 18.

Yes CJ was going up against better DB's, but those numbers are not 'Wide open all day'. I don't think there is a defense in the league that wouldn't take that line against CJ.

[pbmax]

They were also rolling coverage toward Jordy. Not sure if Packers were doing that to Johnson.

[denverYooper]

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 6m
Working on stat piece on Green Bay's offense for tomorrow. Would actually need to add a few flavors to get up to vanilla.

[Pugger]

To me, what makes Calvin Johnson the best wide receiver in the game is that he is 6'5" and can catch balls when he's got guys draped all over him. He's a good route runner, but no better than Jordy. So the question remains: how did Johnson get so, so open, and Nelson not?

Lots of good posts in this thread. I want to add one bit: I wonder if Rodgers is getting too insulated, too cocky. He seems so damn arrogant on the field, and by that I mean that when a pass isn't completed, he often gesticulates angrily at his receiver about it. He kinda shows guy up on the field, and that's not cool. How about if Jordy gestured angrily at Rodgers for missing on that fourth down pass? I think Rodgers is maybe getting too much of a free pass from his coaches and teammates.

Perhaps it is because he towers over almost every DB so he can snatch the ball out of air over defenders?

I wonder if most really good QBs get cocky after a while? We've seen P. Manning and Brady bitching at their receivers for screwing up and they have been getting away with that for years.

[denverYooper]

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 25m
Packers have gone from 35.6% of snaps in 11 personnel in 2010 to 76.6 now. Almost all formation diversity is gone.

Aaron Nagler ‏@AaronNagler 24m
@SI_DougFarrar Been preaching this for over a year. It's what made Mike so good. He's completely chucked it out the window.

Chris B. Brown ‏@smartfootball 21m
@AaronNagler @SI_DougFarrar I guess part of it was they wanted to play faster but they haven't done that either

Aaron Nagler ‏@AaronNagler 9m
@smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar That's the maddening part. We saw them going lightning fast for two drives in the preseason. Pretty much it.

Matt Bowen ‏@MattBowen41 5m
@AaronNagler @smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar W/O movement & multiple personnel groupings, the D doesn't have to adjust. Just line up & play.

[pbmax]

Telll me which one is the coach:

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 1h
Packers have gone from 35.6% of snaps in 11 personnel in 2010 to 76.6 now. Almost all formation diversity is gone.

Aaron Nagler ‏@AaronNagler 44m
@smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar That's the maddening part. We saw them going lightning fast for two drives in the preseason. Pretty much it.

Matt Bowen ‏@MattBowen41 40m
@AaronNagler @smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar W/O movement & multiple personnel groupings, the D doesn't have to adjust. Just line up & play.

Peter Bukowski ‏@BukoTime 39m
@MattBowen41 @AaronNagler @smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar Also noted that Peyton Manning doesn't like motion either. Didn't know that.

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 36m
@BukoTime @MattBowen41 @AaronNagler @smartfootball Mid-2000s Colts ran more 11 than anyone. Over and over. Was easier w/Cover-2 as primary D

Chris B. Brown ‏@smartfootball 2m
@SI_DougFarrar @BukoTime @MattBowen41 @AaronNagler well advantage for Manning was he got looks he could then adjust plays to, used tempo

Chris B. Brown ‏@smartfootball 1m
@SI_DougFarrar @BukoTime @MattBowen41 @AaronNagler Using limited sets is not inherently wrong but it has implications of how you use it

[pbmax]

Then they go off the rails.

Matt Bowen ‏@MattBowen41 48m
@AaronNagler @smartfootball @SI_DougFarrar W/O movement & multiple personnel groupings, the D doesn't have to adjust. Just line up & play.

Chris B. Brown ‏@smartfootball 10m
@MattBowen41 @AaronNagler @SI_DougFarrar You have to do one or the other. Tempo or be multiple. Can't let Ds tee off. And it's not like they

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 2m
And there it is. RT @smartfootball @MattBowen41 @AaronNagler You have to do one or the other. Tempo or be multiple.


Manning's offense with the Colts didn't sub out of 11 personnel, and he called everything at the LOS. He would dummy signal and if the D shifted, he adjusted again.

Its not the tempo, its the fact the only player Rodgers can call that last adjustment with a hand signal to is Nelson. Should be Cobb too, but he has been pedestrian. Adams and Boykin take turns either missing a signal or dropping a pass. If this doesn't change, or if they don't figure out a way to change the routes en masse, then I think they have to go back to multiple.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Telll me which on is the coach:



It's all on the coach. And he's comfortable with it... http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/13483/packers-sacrificing-variety-to-run-no-huddle


But it does not sound like McCarthy is ready to make any significant changes -- either in personnel or scheme -- heading into Sunday’s game at the Chicago Bears (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/chi/chicago-bears?ex_cid=null).

"Our offense really isn't where we would like it to be," McCarthy said. "Whether we're in no-huddle or whether we’re in what we call standard huddle, mechanically what we’re doing I'm comfortable with."

[pbmax]

It's all on the coach. And he's comfortable with it... http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/13483/packers-sacrificing-variety-to-run-no-huddle

That was supposed to say "one" as in, which Twitter user was a coach. But your post is a great find regardless.

[Joemailman]

The idea of using the same formation 78% of the time seems almost neanderthal. The Bears have a defensive secondary in a state of flux. I would think being able to face the same offensive alignment over and over would be a help to them. We'll see.

[pbmax]

The idea of using the same formation 78% of the time seems almost neanderthal. The Bears have a defensive secondary in a state of flux. I would think being able to face the same offensive alignment over and over would be a help to them. We'll see.

A lot depends on what they do with the personnel. You can run any number of things with 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) but they were caught running a lot of deep routes versus the Lions Cover 2. If they can get to a better play call, then I don't care about the personnel package.

[Joemailman]

A lot depends on what they do with the personnel. You can run any number of things with 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) but they were caught running a lot of deep routes versus the Lions Cover 2. If they can get to a better play call, then I don't care about the personnel package.

Jordy, Cobb, Boykin and Quarless ain't exactly Jennings, Jordy, Jones and Finley though. I think they're kind of limited with what they can do because Cobb isn't very well suited for playing outside, and Quarless isn't as flexible as Finley. They're less talented and in my opinion somewhat more predictable.

By the way, when Boykin filled in so well when Cobb was hurt last year, did he line up primarily in the slot? I'm just wondering if his reduced effectiveness is due to having to play outside more.

[Harlan Huckleby]

By the way, when Boykin filled in so well when Cobb was hurt last year, did he line up primarily in the slot? I'm just wondering if his reduced effectiveness is due to having to play outside more.

McGinn on Cobb in Detroit:


Not once did Cobb line up outside. All day long he had the slot two-way go against the Lions' fifth and sixth nickel backs, Danny Gorrer and Mohammed Seisay. A hard grader would give Cobb two drops. More alarming was the fact he couldn't beat these newly arrived free agents like a drum. Playing slot in this offense with this quarterback should be a ticket to enormous production and the stardom that goes with that. But Cobb's ho-hum play throughout training camp has carried over into the regular season.

Edit: "Now I see" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
You were referring to Boykins having success last year in the slot.

[denverYooper]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/25/packers-offense-aaron-rodgers-jordy-nelson-struggles


One other thing that isn't helping Rodgers' case: he's tied with Joe Flacco for the league's highest percentage of dropped passes at 9.8. Not all of the inaccuracy has been the fault of Rodgers' receivers -- Rodgers has underthrown several deep routes this season -- but that doesn't help.

[pbmax]

Jordy, Cobb, Boykin and Quarless ain't exactly Jennings, Jordy, Jones and Finley though. I think they're kind of limited with what they can do because Cobb isn't very well suited for playing outside, and Quarless isn't as flexible as Finley. They're less talented and in my opinion somewhat more predictable.

By the way, when Boykin filled in so well when Cobb was hurt last year, did he line up primarily in the slot? I'm just wondering if his reduced effectiveness is due to having to play outside more.

Jordy played the slot.