McGinn: Hawk, Epitome of Mediocrity

[Tyrion Lannister]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-weak-spot-inside-linebacker-b99377228z1-280436312.html

I could not agree more with McGinn.

I was just wondering why the Packers are having problems stopping the run up the middle, so with no date tonight, I went and rewatch a few "Shortcuts" of Packers victories this season (never record loses; too depressing). Shortcuts are where you can watch an entire game in 30 minutes

Hawk just can't shed blocks. Time and time again, teams ran at Hawk. Time and time again, an offensive lineman swallowed Hawk like a hawk swallowing a sparrow. A guy like Urlacher would've seen it coming a mile away and shot through a gap and tackle the runner for -5 before a lineman even got off his fat ass.

There's nothing to talk about Hawk's coverage ability. He sucks in coverage. Period.

Hawk, in his prime, was average at best. Now he has lost a step. The Packers need 2 new starting ILB, imho.

[channtheman]

Hawk's problem is that he is so assignment sure that he actually initiates the guy on the offense who is supposed to block him because "he's supposed to block me" thinks Hawk. I've actually seen plays where Hawk was going to be right where the RB is and instead of breaking down and attacking the RB he dove at the lineman's knees that was supposed to block him and took himself out of the play. Time and time again, I've seen Hawk take on a blocker like he was on offense. It's like he doesn't understand that he is supposed to shed the block and tackle the RB.

[wist43]

We definitely need upgrades at both ILB positions, but of course 1265 doesn't agree.

I reluctantly signed off on the Hawk pick b/c I figured he at least wouldn't be a bust, but he's underperformed even what I expected. Most Packerrats expected he'd be a probowler, but I just didn't see it. He had great stats in college, but when I watched him in college he didn't look dynamic at all. He garbaged into sacks, and he looked average in every way to me - he's proven to be just that as a pro.

I wanted Vernon Davis or Ngata in that draft as I remember, and both have been much better than Hawk. Hawk hasn't been a bust per se, but you need to get more out of a #5 pick. Hopefully both he and Brad Jones will be gone next year, and we can start over at ILB.

[Fritz]

We definitely need upgrades at both ILB positions, but of course 1265 doesn't agree.

I reluctantly signed off on the Hawk pick b/c I figured he at least wouldn't be a bust, but he's underperformed even what I expected. Most Packerrats expected he'd be a probowler, but I just didn't see it. He had great stats in college, but when I watched him in college he didn't look dynamic at all. He garbaged into sacks, and he looked average in every way to me - he's proven to be just that as a pro.

I wanted Vernon Davis or Ngata in that draft as I remember, and both have been much better than Hawk. Hawk hasn't been a bust per se, but you need to get more out of a #5 pick. Hopefully both he and Brad Jones will be gone next year, and we can start over at ILB.


Uh, even morose McGinn understands that the Packer execs know an upgrade at ILB is needed - both Shazier and Mosely are mentioned in the article. Your insistence that somehow the Packer front office walks around saying "yeah, we're happy to be mediocre on defense" is not only preposterous but takes away from some of the decent points you try to make.

I think the front office understands Hawk's value and his limitations, and I don't think if they had a chance they'd somehow pass on the opportunity to put a better player than he is in that spot. They've been spending their draft resources on other areas, though sadly the last few first rounders have not played up to what I'd consider a first-round status.

But any knucklehead could write an article lamenting a weak position on a football team, and point out examples of players from other teams that are way better.

But every team's resources are limited, so it's really not very helpful to say that the Packers, or any team, shoulda coulda got these other players. Sure, but if they'd, say, traded up to get Shazier or Mosely, there'd be no Clinton-Dix.

No, the Packer inside linebackers aren't very good. But I highly doubt that the Packer front office is content and happy and wouldn't want anyone else.

[red]

And here we all are talking about how we needed to "draft" an ILB in order to upgrade the position

Like there are no other means available to us to upgrade the position

Btw. We are currently sitting on almost 8 million in free cap space

[George Cumby]

Yup. Mediocre but always available. Not exactly cutting edge journalism, Bob.

[Fritz]

And here we all are talking about how we needed to "draft" an ILB in order to upgrade the position

Like there are no other means available to us to upgrade the position

Btw. We are currently sitting on almost 8 million in free cap space


Okay, Red. Give us the names of the players this past offseason you'd have signed.

[KYPack]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-weak-spot-inside-linebacker-b99377228z1-280436312.html

I could not agree more with McGinn.

I was just wondering why the Packers are having problems stopping the run up the middle, so with no date tonight, I went and rewatch a few "Shortcuts" of Packers victories this season (never record loses; too depressing). Shortcuts are where you can watch an entire game in 30 minutes

Hawk just can't shed blocks. Time and time again, teams ran at Hawk. Time and time again, an offensive lineman swallowed Hawk like a hawk swallowing a sparrow. A guy like Urlacher would've seen it coming a mile away and shot through a gap and tackle the runner for -5 before a lineman even got off his fat ass.

There's nothing to talk about Hawk's coverage ability. He sucks in coverage. Period.

Hawk, in his prime, was average at best. Now he has lost a step. The Packers need 2 new starting ILB, imho.

We all knew it was you Tank, when you first signed on here.

Stay within yer little confines or you'll be blown outta here like a watermelon seed.

[Maxie the Taxi]

When Brad Jones wore the communication helmet, he played every down. Now that Hawk wears it, he plays every down. So your two weakest links play every down. Why? Now we're set to play a team with the best tight end in football. I guarantee NO will find a way to isolate him over the middle on the slowest LB in football...who will ALWAYS be in the game.

There is a lot about this modern game I don't understand.

[Fritz]

Apparently the smartest players are also some of the slowest and least athletic.

Can't they put Hawk on the sideline and let him wear the headset, then scream shit out to the guys on the field?

But wait...who would play? Barrington and Lattimore? That'd be spooky in its own right.

I sure hope there's some college kid out there who plays inside linebacker in a 3-4 who is waiting to be a Packer.

And speaking of, I wonder if Carl Bradford is progressing at all.

[red]

Okay, Red. Give us the names of the players this past offseason you'd have signed.

I have no clue, but seeings how we have two of the worst ILBs in the game, it couldnt have been to hard to find an upgrade.

Im not saying we had to sign a kuecley or a ray lewis, but trying to bring in competion or someone other then the crap we had would have been nice.

Mcginn justbnamed a handfullnof players that i have never heard of, who are all (in his opinion) playing better then our two.

We didnt even try to upgrade the position, the one guy they drafted they kept saying was an OLB and nothing more. That leads me to believe the coaches and GM think we are "just fine" at that position

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hawk, in his prime, was average at best. Now he has lost a step. The Packers need 2 new starting ILB, imho.

I think Hawk had his best season ever last year, if my memory can be trusted. It is possible that this season is start of decline, not sure. Packers won Super Bowl with in 2010, and he was generally worse as a young player, IMO.

Hawk is a JAG this year, sure, it would be nice to upgrade him.

[red]

Or how bout "gasp" trading one of our precious draft picks for one

Im sure one of our 2 3rd round picks we threw away in the last draft could have been swungfor an upgrade

[Maxie the Taxi]

Dallas took a flyer on Rolando McClain. They got him for next to nothing. Worked out pretty good.

[pbmax]

Dallas took a flyer on Rolando McClain. They got him for next to nothing. Worked out pretty good.

That whole defense is a flyer that worked out well. Everyone thought the only improvement would be that they might not be as historically bad as last year.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Well, give me 1/100 of what Hawk makes and I'll suit up...

[pbmax]

Without B.J. Raji and Ryan Pickett to keep blockers off, Hawk's inability to get off blocks and attack ball carriers has become magnified. The Packers can't stop the run.

Word salad. The Packers were last in the League in risk defense WITH those guys. Their absence may have changed the problem Hawk faces, but the result is still bad run defense.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Does anyone want to design the perfect ILB for TT? Size? Speed? Smarts? Toughness? Quick?

I'd put the premium on speed and smarts. Hawk apparently is one out of two.

[Rutnstrut]

ILB isn't the only mediocre position. Clay is often injured, over rated, and over payed. That reeks of mediocrity, just with prettier hair.

[red]

ILB isn't the only mediocre position. Clay is often injured, over rated, and over payed. That reeks of mediocrity, just with prettier hair.

The difference is that clay flashes freak awesomeness

Hawk flashes solidness

[pbmax]

ILB isn't the only mediocre position. Clay is often injured, over rated, and over payed. That reeks of mediocrity, just with prettier hair.

In fact, if the entire defense was mediocre like Matthews, it would be the most mediocre #1 defense in the League.

[denverYooper]

In fact, if the entire defense was mediocre like Matthews, it would be the most mediocre #1 defense in the League.

LOL!

BTW... Clay looked like he had more of his speed back last week after looking unusually slow for a month.

[red]

So, everyone kept saying morgan burnett looked like shit because he had shit lined up next to him

Hawk also has a pile of shit lined up next to him

Would one decent ILB next to hawk actually make him look better?

If burnett only looked bad because "he has to cover for his partner", then isnt the same true for hawk and jones?

[pbmax]

So, everyone kept saying morgan burnett looked like shit because he had shit lined up next to him

Hawk also has a pile of shit lined up next to him

Would one decent ILB next to hawk actually make him look better?

If burnett only looked bad because "he has to cover for his partner", then isnt the same true for hawk and jones?

Yes, especially if it was a good match skills wise.

McGinn laughs at the notion of Hawk starting on a SB winning defense, but he was already on one obviously. Bishop probably wasn't the best skills match, but they made it work that year (2011 different story). It would also help if they were more sturdy up front. Woodson also helped.

But the baseline poor fit is that Hawk is being asked to play Buck ILB, which is usually taking on a Guard, and he doesn't shed well. He went from a weak side LB in a 4-3 to the plugger in a 3-4. He's not ideal there.

I don't believe the answers on floating around on the FA market often, but I have to think a Guard/run plugger at ILB to let Hawk run to the ball would be a relatively easy find. But they seem to be in no hurry to move him.

[Pugger]

LOL!

BTW... Clay looked like he had more of his speed back last week after looking unusually slow for a month.

I suspect his groin was bothering him for a couple of weeks.

[George Cumby]

Here's Hawks rookie stats:

Games played:16
Total tackles: 119
Solo: 82
Assists: 37
Sacks: 3.5
Passes defensed: 6
Interceptions: 2
So what happened? Maybe just a bad fit? Too big and too slow after bulking up after his rookie season?

[red]

Here's Hawks rookie stats:

Games played:16
Total tackles: 119
Solo: 82
Assists: 37
Sacks: 3.5
Passes defensed: 6
Interceptions: 2
So what happened? Maybe just a bad fit? Too big and too slow after bulking up after his rookie season?

Like pb just said, he was playing another position back then with a totally different role

He was in the playmaker role back then, now hes doing the dirty work

[King Friday]

Can we upgrade Hawk as a player? Sure. He's not a playmaker...he's pedestrian as an athlete on an NFL field. However, Hawk is highly respected in the locker room and is almost like having a coach on the field. He is constantly directing players where to go and has been getting them in the right spot more often than not this year. So, if you bring in a guy who is a better player...but who is unable to direct those around him to get the defense set up correctly...have you really improved anything?

To me, writing about upgrading Hawk is a bottom of the barrel article for a guy like McGinn. Fans have been saying this shit for YEARS. However, there are a few other positions on the team where an upgrade would have more of an impact. Look at the impact Ha Ha has made on this defense. Was McGinn touting that upgrade anywhere? To me, that was FAR more important than fixing the Hawk situation.

IMO, Bob McGinn's writing at this point is more mediocre than AJ Hawk.

[Fritz]

"Like a coach on the field" makes me think of Fat Mike out there, his cheeks bulging out of his helmet as a running back whizzes by.

[Tyrion Lannister]

I've actually seen plays where Hawk was going to be right where the RB is and instead of breaking down and attacking the RB he dove at the lineman's knees that was supposed to block him and took himself out of the play. Time and time again, I've seen Hawk take on a blocker like he was on offense. It's like he doesn't understand that he is supposed to shed the block and tackle the RB.

Saw plenty of that against the Saints. :x

Hawk sucks motherfucking balls and bigot dicks. He needs to take his lame ass back to Ohio and fuck up that fucking state like he's fucking up the Packers!!!! :x:x:x:x:x

I am fucking pissed!!!

[gbgary]

gashed up the middle again. he's part of the problem but by no means is he the whole problem. got to concentrate on d line, mlb, and o line, next draft.

[Tyrion Lannister]

gashed up the middle again. he's part of the problem but by no means is he the whole problem. got to concentrate on d line, mlb, and o line, next draft.

They ran at Hawk all day. Hawk was more worthless than Brad Jones.

[Zool]

I reluctantly signed off on the Hawk pick b/c I figured he at least wouldn't be a bust

I'm just glad they asked for your opinion.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Hawk Is not going anywhere this season or next so bitching about him isn't going to accelerate his departure. We have NO inside backers. Zero. They all suck. Do you think TT is going to suddenly find two high quality starters in one offseason? Not a chance. Hawk is way more valuable than Lattimore, Barrington, and Bradford. So the goal is going to be to replace that bunch before Hawk. Hawk has one more year left on his deal after this season and then hes gone. Ideally we find a great player someone this offseason to play next to Hawk in 2015 and then hope to get lucky with at least a decent player the year after that.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Can we upgrade Hawk as a player? Sure. He's not a playmaker...he's pedestrian as an athlete on an NFL field. However, Hawk is highly respected in the locker room and is almost like having a coach on the field. He is constantly directing players where to go and has been getting them in the right spot more often than not this year. So, if you bring in a guy who is a better player...but who is unable to direct those around him to get the defense set up correctly...have you really improved anything?

To me, writing about upgrading Hawk is a bottom of the barrel article for a guy like McGinn. Fans have been saying this shit for YEARS. However, there are a few other positions on the team where an upgrade would have more of an impact. Look at the impact Ha Ha has made on this defense. Was McGinn touting that upgrade anywhere? To me, that was FAR more important than fixing the Hawk situation.

IMO, Bob McGinn's writing at this point is more mediocre than AJ Hawk.

I used to buy into the argument that Hawk is like a coach out there, but not any more. If he's lining guys up in the right spots, why is the run defense such garbage? Is it that everyone else sucks at stopping the run? I just don't think Hawk is as cerebral as he is given credit for. Sure he's a leader in the locker room, and rarely gets hurt but on the field he's just not making a difference in any aspect that I can see.


Hawk Is not going anywhere this season or next so bitching about him isn't going to accelerate his departure. We have NO inside backers. Zero. They all suck. Do you think TT is going to suddenly find two high quality starters in one offseason? Not a chance. Hawk is way more valuable than Lattimore, Barrington, and Bradford. So the goal is going to be to replace that bunch before Hawk. Hawk has one more year left on his deal after this season and then hes gone. Ideally we find a great player someone this offseason to play next to Hawk in 2015 and then hope to get lucky with at least a decent player the year after that.

This is the reality. I'd like the Pack to get a new ILB high in this next draft but that position isn't that strong in the upcoming draft. There's guys that will be available in the late 1st, early 2nd but no real studs. So it's easy to say to draft a replacement for Hawk, but it may not even be possible.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I used to buy into the argument that Hawk is like a coach out there, but not any more. If he's lining guys up in the right spots, why is the run defense such garbage? Is it that everyone else sucks at stopping the run? I just don't think Hawk is as cerebral as he is given credit for. Sure he's a leader in the locker room, and rarely gets hurt but on the field he's just not making a difference in any aspect that I can see.




This is the reality. I'd like the Pack to get a new ILB high in this next draft but that position isn't that strong in the upcoming draft. There's guys that will be available in the late 1st, early 2nd but no real studs. So it's easy to say to draft a replacement for Hawk, but it may not even be possible.

You can get lucky. Doesn't always have to be a high pick. Bowman was a 3rd rounder (DPoY), Wagner was a 2nd, KJ wright was a 4th, Lavonte David was a 2nd, Alonzo (solid rookie year before getting hurt) was a 2nd, Sean Lee was a 2nd, etc etc. Heck even our own Bishop was a 6th. You just have to find them.

[Patler]

The run defense sucked last night not because of Hawk, but in addition to Hawk.

HHC-D too-often looked like a rookie safety still needing to learn how to tackle NFL running backs in the open (which, of course, he is).
The other DBs also had their embarrassing moments as well.
LBs other than Hawk were no where to be seen near the line of scrimmage, and when seen they were carried for 2-5 yards before getting Ingram down.
The D-line was not stacking things up, or being disruptive to blocking patterns. Either would have helped.

Hawk may have been awful in run D last night, but so was everyone else at one time or another.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

The run defense sucked last night not because of Hawk, but in addition to Hawk.

HHC-D too-often looked like a rookie safety still needing to learn how to tackle NFL running backs in the open (which, of course, he is).
The other DBs also had their embarrassing moments as well.
LBs other than Hawk were no where to be seen near the line of scrimmage, and when seen they were carried for 2-5 yards before getting Ingram down.
The D-line was not stacking things up, or being disruptive to blocking patterns. Either would have helped.

Hawk may have been awful in run D last night, but so was everyone else at one time or another.

I love HHCD. Say what you will about his missed tackles, but his aggressiveness is fun to watch. As he develops in year two and three he has potential to be a probowler. I think TT hit on him.

[Patler]

I love HHCD. Say what you will about his missed tackles, but his aggressiveness is fun to watch. As he develops in year two and three he has potential to be a probowler. I think TT hit on him.

I like him too, but he was the problem on run D for several plays last night. Not surprising, being a rookie and all; but the problem on those plays nonetheless.

[wist43]

You can get lucky. Doesn't always have to be a high pick. Bowman was a 3rd rounder (DPoY), Wagner was a 2nd, KJ wright was a 4th, Lavonte David was a 2nd, Alonzo (solid rookie year before getting hurt) was a 2nd, Sean Lee was a 2nd, etc etc. Heck even our own Bishop was a 6th. You just have to find them.

Most of those guys are guys I was high on and wanted TT to draft - instead he passes on them for players at other positions.

He took Hawk at #5 all those years ago, but other than that he hasn't invested much of anything at the ILB position his entire time here.

To be sure, the Packers brain trust has a peculiar approach to how they view their front seven; and it's been that way for many, many years... don't know where it comes from, but it seems to be an institutional thing.

[red]

Most of those guys are guys I was high on and wanted TT to draft - instead he passes on them for players at other positions.

He took Hawk at #5 all those years ago, but other than that he hasn't invested much of anything at the ILB position his entire time here.

To be sure, the Packers brain trust has a peculiar approach to how they view their front seven; and it's been that way for many, many years... don't know where it comes from, but it seems to be an institutional thing.

And they didnt invest in an ILB back then either. They invested the #5 pick in a 4-3 weakside LB

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Players available if picking 32nd in every round from 2010 to 2012. Fun to think about...all these guys were actually there lol. I know its impossible to do but still fun.

2010:
1st: Rob Gronkowski
2nd: NaVorro Bowman
3rd: Geno Atkins
4th: Kam Chancellor
5th: Antonio Brown

2010 was loaded with talent.


2011:
1st: Randall Cobb
2nd: Justin Houston
3rd: Jordan Cameron
4th: Richard Sherman
5th: Bryon Maxwell

2012:
1st: Bobby Wagner
2nd: Casey Hayward
3rd: Mike Daniels
4th:Jeremy Lane
5th: Alfred Morris

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Yeck 2013 picking 32nd in each round:

1st: Darius Slay
2nd: Terron Armstead
3rd: David Bahkitari
4rd: Kenny Stills
5th: Andre Ellington

[wist43]

I'm just glad they asked for your opinion.

Sand in your vagina??

[Fosco33]

Hawk may bring leadership/vet appeal and communication. But I've been saying for a long time here that he's a soft pillow for opponents to land on. There are way too many plays where he takes a bad angle and his coverage is poor at best.

If they found the magic pony of leadership and upgraded athleticism - I think the brass would've done so by now.

[Zool]

Sand in your vagina??

Head too large to use doors?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm outta here, I'm sick of you bastard people


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILPbQvh8ol4&list=PLBYf9q27vGJHpzPyGcE21MNy3HMc6MNZA&index=147

[Carolina_Packer]

Uh, even morose McGinn understands that the Packer execs know an upgrade at ILB is needed - both Shazier and Mosely are mentioned in the article. Your insistence that somehow the Packer front office walks around saying "yeah, we're happy to be mediocre on defense" is not only preposterous but takes away from some of the decent points you try to make.

I think the front office understands Hawk's value and his limitations, and I don't think if they had a chance they'd somehow pass on the opportunity to put a better player than he is in that spot. They've been spending their draft resources on other areas, though sadly the last few first rounders have not played up to what I'd consider a first-round status.

But any knucklehead could write an article lamenting a weak position on a football team, and point out examples of players from other teams that are way better.

But every team's resources are limited, so it's really not very helpful to say that the Packers, or any team, shoulda coulda got these other players. Sure, but if they'd, say, traded up to get Shazier or Mosely, there'd be no Clinton-Dix.

No, the Packer inside linebackers aren't very good. But I highly doubt that the Packer front office is content and happy and wouldn't want anyone else.

I think the front office never tries to outspend what turn out to be mistakes, meaning, if they sign a guy to an extension and he doesn't grade out to the level they are paying him, they don't just kick him to the curb and bring in a free agent like some teams do. Like it or not, TT is never going to swing for the fence on free agent signings because I think he views one of his core jobs as GM is to keep the salary cap situation healthy and flexible. That said, I agree with Fritz that they know it's time to move on from what they have, and they'll do that in their deliberate, non-splashy, player development way. They are probably still wondering if Sam Barrington has the goods to take over, instead of some teams who might spend a boat load on a FA ILB.

[Bretsky]

Or how bout "gasp" trading one of our precious draft picks for one

Im sure one of our 2 3rd round picks we threw away in the last draft could have been swungfor an upgrade

I know you were a hater but Chris Borland hasn't looked bad. 18 Tackles last week. Rock solid guy and great leader. Many of his Badger teammates called him last week to congratulate him on a great game....however...he misread a play that resulted in the final TD for the Rams...so he was very bummed out/unhappy about his performance. Nice interviews on ESPN 1070 in Madison

[Patler]

I know you were a hater but Chris Borland hasn't looked bad. 18 Tackles last week. Rock solid guy and great leader. Many of his Badger teammates called him last week to congratulate him on a great game....however...he misread a play that resulted in the final TD for the Rams...so he was very bummed out/unhappy about his performance. Nice interviews on ESPN 1070 in Madison

On this board, he would have been ripped from one side to the other for that performance. For most on here, it doesn't seem to matter how much you do right, only what you do wrong.

[red]

I know you were a hater but Chris Borland hasn't looked bad. 18 Tackles last week. Rock solid guy and great leader. Many of his Badger teammates called him last week to congratulate him on a great game....however...he misread a play that resulted in the final TD for the Rams...so he was very bummed out/unhappy about his performance. Nice interviews on ESPN 1070 in Madison

I wasnt a hater dick head

Was I?

I knew we needed to draft a new ILB and i didnt reall care who it was

I thought i liked borland. But who the hell can remember that far back?

[Bretsky]

I wasnt a hater dick head

Was I?

I knew we needed to draft a new ILB and i didnt reall care who it was

I thought i liked borland. But who the hell can remember that far back?


...my apologies if you were not..but I think you bought into the silly anti Borland hatred that was pushed on here.

I remember the draft day theade when several thought it was great SF took him so we didn't. I swear you were in that gang. Maybe I'm wrong.

I just remember I was in the extreme minority in thinking he'd be a player. Everybody else just went to the measurable.....just like the college scouts who never offered him a scholarship

[Bretsky]

On this board, he would have been ripped from one side to the other for that performance. For most on here, it doesn't seem to matter how much you do right, only what you do wrong.


I listed to the Badger beat reporter who spoke with Borland. Borland had a great game one one bad fuck up. The fact that he was down on himself after that games says load about his expectations for himself. To all the Borland hater I never argued he'd be a superstar.....just a solid smash mouth football player that I'd welcome over Just a Jag Jones. I'd take him in Green Bay any day

[George Cumby]

I didn't have much of an opinion on Borland coming in, but I figured Ted wasn't going to go for him based on his measurables. He tried a short, slow ILB with the kid out of App State, whose name escapes me ATM. Ted wasn't going to go that way again.

[Patler]

My concern with Borland was his injuries. Three shoulder operations on a linebacker known as a big hitter have to be a concern. One article said at least one team dropped him off their board due to their belief that he already needed another shoulder operation, something about a screw that has moved out of place in his shoulder.

I looked at Borland's shoulders and Abbredaris' concussions in the same way. Just too much history with a recurring injury that seems likely to happen again.

[call_me_ishmael]

Borland had a great game today, too. I will admit I was very wrong about him. I did not seem him being an effective NFL player at 5'10".