GB gave away its chance to improve run defense

[Patler]

A big mistake?


Ryan Pickett has been more than just a player signed off the free agent pool for the Houston Texans. He has been a difference maker for the defense, but he brings another leader to the locker room and a veteran that eases the locker room with his big smile. With a Texans’ beanie on his head, Pickett was laughing non-stop and sitting by his locker taking questions from the media.

The Texans nose tackle, at 340 lbs., has been a welcomed sight, but he was all but ready to all but hang up the cleats after sitting at home.
....


Since Pickett has arrived, he has be part of a team that has improved their rush defense to 88.2 yards a game and 3.4 yards a rush. Without the massive nose tackle, the Texans were giving up 141.6 yards a game on the ground and 5.3 yards a rush. Even Bill O’Brien has taken notice of his veteran nose tackle’s impact.

“He’s played a big role. He’s played a big role in the 3-4.” said O’Brien. “He’s gotten in better and better football condition since he’s arrived.“

“He’s a 340 pound guy, tough to move. He’s got good instincts, good hands. He’s played a good part in helping us in our run defense and the 3-4 defense.”



http://hou.scout.com/story/1474877-ryan-pickett-from-the-couch-to-the-texans

[pbmax]

A big mistake?



http://hou.scout.com/story/1474877-ryan-pickett-from-the-couch-to-the-texans

As a starter? No.

2013 D on 12th highest attempts, Packers were 25th in yards, and 29th in y/a
2012 D on 13th in atts, 27th yards, 26th y/a
2011 D on 5th in atts, 14th yards, 26th y/a

However, if viewed strictly as a backup when Raji went down, he probably doesn't hurt. But that's one less pass rusher you keep because Ryan isn't getting to the QB.

[Carolina_Packer]

As a starter? No.

2013 D on 12th highest attempts, Packers were 25th in yards, and 29th in y/a
2012 D on 13th in atts, 27th yards, 26th y/a
2011 D on 5th in atts, 14th yards, 26th y/a

However, if viewed strictly as a backup when Raji went down, he probably doesn't hurt. But that's one less pass rusher you keep because Ryan isn't getting to the QB.

Starter on front seven can be hard to say because they play in sub quite a bit, where you're not going to have a run stopping specialist in there anyway, so unless they have some pocket pushing skills, you'll be yanked. At least in the base defense, and with all the sustained injuries, Ryan could have been a difference maker for the Packers this year. Does that mean they liked Pennel and Guion that much that even when Raji went down they said "we're good"?

[pbmax]

They committed to running less 3 man line, doing less of what the Texans are using him for. They want more versatile people out there. So while he would have been a good replacement for Raji, he still doesn't fit their new version of the line where the players are supposed to be dual threats.

Brining him back is an admission of defeat in that plan and they aren't ready to throw in the towel.

But Pickett alone is no solution as evidenced by the numbers above. Whether this D was a worthy experiment is very much up in the air. Twice its looked colossally worse.

[Fritz]

Pickett might've made a good run-down sub, but that was a luxury they couldn't afford in this new, "versatile lineman" system.

I wonder - I suppose it's a vague, forlorn hope - if Datone Jones's being out hurt that run defense. Anyone know if the guy was even playing okay this year? Does he even resemble a first-round pick?

[Rutnstrut]

They committed to running less 3 man line, doing less of what the Texans are using him for. They want more versatile people out there. So while he would have been a good replacement for Raji, he still doesn't fit their new version of the line where the players are supposed to be dual threats.

Brining him back is an admission of defeat in that plan and they aren't ready to throw in the towel.

But Pickett alone is no solution as evidenced by the numbers above. Whether this D was a worthy experiment is very much up in the air. Twice its looked colossally worse.


That's the biggest part of it right there, is that the exalted great ones stubby, Capers, and TT would NEVER admit that they are less than perfect. Bringing the big man back would have done exactly that.

[Joemailman]

Pickett may have helped their run defense, but I'm not sure he's helping their defense overall. Since, he's been in the lineup, they're giving up about 290 yards passing per game. That's more than they were giving up before he was in the lineup. He may solidify their run defense, but I'll bet they're sacrificing some pass rush when he's in there. Houston has given up 30+ points in 3 of the 6 games he's played in. Not saying it's all his fault, but it's not like he's been a savior for the defense.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The saddest words of mouth or pen
are not "it was" but "it might have been"

[Joemailman]

Pickett might've made a good run-down sub, but that was a luxury they couldn't afford in this new, "versatile lineman" system.

I wonder - I suppose it's a vague, forlorn hope - if Datone Jones's being out hurt that run defense. Anyone know if the guy was even playing okay this year? Does he even resemble a first-round pick?

I thought he was picking it up after a mediocre start. Had a sack against the Bears and then got hurt the next week. Does he look like a 1st round pick? Taking into account that 70% of 1st round picks never make a Pro Bowl, I'll say he does. He ain't Reggie White, but I think he could be Vonnie Holliday.

[George Cumby]

Letting VH go always bothered me but I don't recall the rationale. Was it a cap thing?

[Joemailman]

Letting VH go always bothered me but I don't recall the rationale. Was it a cap thing?

My recollection:

In summer of 2002, Packers tried to sign VH to an extension, but he turned it down. Cleditus Hunt then had his best season for the Packers. At the end of the season, the Packers felt they couldn't afford to sign both, so they went with Hunt. Vonnie had missed 6 games with an injury, and Hunt probably had the better year.

[Guiness]

My recollection:

In summer of 2002, Packers tried to sign VH to an extension, but he turned it down. Cleditus Hunt then had his best season for the Packers. At the end of the season, the Packers felt they couldn't afford to sign both, so they went with Hunt. Vonnie had missed 6 games with an injury, and Hunt probably had the better year.

That sounds about right, except I didn't know about VH turning down the extension. What I do know is that he went on to play, generally quite well, for a decade after he left the Packers.

[pbmax]

That's the biggest part of it right there, is that the exalted great ones stubby, Capers, and TT would NEVER admit that they are less than perfect. Bringing the big man back would have done exactly that.

More important question is whether Pickett would have made the D better overall, that is, number of points allowed. Those figures for the team defense during Pickett's stay aren't much better than the run defense.

2011-2013 the points allowed ranks are 19th, 11th and 24th.

Its more than Pickett or Raji or the defense would have been better prior.

[George Cumby]

My recollection:

At the end of the season, the Packers felt they couldn't afford to sign both, so they went with Hunt.

:doh:

[Patler]

I didn't start this to suggest that Pickett could have been a savior for the defense overall, just that he might have been an improvement for the defense against the run. I don't know much at all about the Texan's defense, how Pickett is used, etc., but I assume he is used similarly to the way he was used in GB. I seriously doubt that Pickett is on the field very often in passing situations, and in view of their significant improvement in defending running plays, opponents are probably in passing situations more frequently, and on earlier downs, so you might expect their performance, especially in net yards passing, to increase. I really don't know how good the Texans are as a pass defense, other than to read their stats.

The Packers SEEM to be somewhat capable of defending against the pass, so getting teams into passing situations can be a good thing. Right now, against the Packers, teams can stay balanced, and can run in just about any situation. Improving the defense against the run on early downs might play into a team strength, defending the pass and generating interception opportunities.

[Cleft Crusty]

Gravy Jackson II plays decent run defense for the Oilers, but he's really quite the old slow turd (I can empathize). He offers nothing in pass rush, and, given how long it takes him to get off the field, they often have to take him out after first down, to give him enough rest for the next first down. With Gravy II in there, there would be no doubt that the Packer run defense would improve (how could it not), but there are severe liabilities having a guy like that on your d-line (It would interesting to see the Oilers try to counter the Packer's no-huddle offense, for example. Gravy II probably would exit the game on a stretcher and on a ventilator).

[wist43]

You can't compare what Pickett or anyone else is doing with another team b/c of how dunderdummy misused them while they were here.

We had the right players in place last year for the most part - our ILB's being the lone, very dismal exception; but of course dunderdummy conceived alignments which ensured that those substandard players were on the field 24/7, while more competent DL were standing on the sideline.

Now this year, TT and dunderdummy dump the 3-4 guys, and what do they do?? Of course they start to run a more traditional 3-4/Elephant - which of course is just another misuse of the players they have on the roster now!!!

The common denominators in our mess of a defense are TT and dunderdummy. Whatever it is about those 2 guys putting their heads together, it has been producing some abysmal results.

We had a much better collection of front seven players last year, and dunderdummy fucked it up. The fix would have been to go to a more traditional 3-4 look in either/or down/distance situations, and look to shore up the mess at ILB. TT did nothing to shore up ILB, booted the 3-4 defensive linemen, and dunderdummy augmented those mistakes by miscasting the players he had left - seems par for the course for those guys.

[3irty1]

You can't compare what Pickett or anyone else is doing with another team b/c of how dunderdummy misused them while they were here.

We had the right players in place last year for the most part - our ILB's being the lone, very dismal exception; but of course dunderdummy conceived alignments which ensured that those substandard players were on the field 24/7, while more competent DL were standing on the sideline.

Now this year, TT and dunderdummy dump the 3-4 guys, and what do they do?? Of course they start to run a more traditional 3-4/Elephant - which of course is just another misuse of the players they have on the roster now!!!

The common denominators in our mess of a defense are TT and dunderdummy. Whatever it is about those 2 guys putting their heads together, it has been producing some abysmal results.

We had a much better collection of front seven players last year, and dunderdummy fucked it up. The fix would have been to go to a more traditional 3-4 look in either/or down/distance situations, and look to shore up the mess at ILB. TT did nothing to shore up ILB, booted the 3-4 defensive linemen, and dunderdummy augmented those mistakes by miscasting the players he had left - seems par for the course for those guys.

I didn't think our guys were worse this year, just different. The guys we have now ought to be able to defend the run on the way to the passer in 1-gap fashion. IMO if you have players that are good at anything, even if they are nearly specialists, a good game plan ought to be able to leverage those strengths and achieve acceptable results against both the run and pass. But when we're equally ineffective at everything like we were against NO, it definitely supports your argument that we have a less talented front 7 this season.

[Carolina_Packer]

I didn't think our guys were worse this year, just different. The guys we have now ought to be able to defend the run on the way to the passer in 1-gap fashion. IMO if you have players that are good at anything, even if they are nearly specialists, a good game plan ought to be able to leverage those strengths and achieve acceptable results against both the run and pass. But when we're equally ineffective at everything like we were against NO, it definitely supports your argument that we have a less talented front 7 this season.

Not challenging anything you're saying; just wondering out loud based on your comments. When would you say it's just a defense that laid an egg on a given week (in this case vs. New Orleans) vs. a disturbing trend? To a person on this forum, nobody thinks the Packers have it all figured out on defense. They are very inconsistent. Believe what your eyes show you!

That said, they had shown improvement in some areas in the games previous to the NO game. So, which defense will show up Sunday? The one that couldn't stop the run even when the Bears put in Jimmy Clausen, or the one that shut down the Vikings (until absolute garbage time)?

[3irty1]

Not challenging anything you're saying; just wondering out loud based on your comments. When would you say it's just a defense that laid an egg on a given week (in this case vs. New Orleans) vs. a disturbing trend? To a person on this forum, nobody thinks the Packers have it all figured out on defense. They are very inconsistent. Believe what your eyes show you!

That said, they had shown improvement in some areas in the games previous to the NO game. So, which defense will show up Sunday? The one that couldn't stop the run even when the Bears put in Jimmy Clausen, or the one that shut down the Vikings (until absolute garbage time)?

To me, not all poor run defense performances are the same. Sucking at defending the run because you sold out to defend the pass is a choice which can make sense vs some opponents. Sucking at both is something else entirely.

[Bretsky]

should have singed Pickett and cut Brad Jones

Addition by Addition and addition by subtraction

[pbmax]

should have singed Pickett and cut Brad Jones

Addition by Addition and addition by subtraction

You just refuse to believe the evidence of the last three years. Has all of wist's complaining been in vain?

#Picknottheanswer

[wist43]

I didn't think our guys were worse this year, just different. The guys we have now ought to be able to defend the run on the way to the passer in 1-gap fashion. IMO if you have players that are good at anything, even if they are nearly specialists, a good game plan ought to be able to leverage those strengths and achieve acceptable results against both the run and pass. But when we're equally ineffective at everything like we were against NO, it definitely supports your argument that we have a less talented front 7 this season.

I can get behind that statement to some extent, but not all the way. We let some good, productive players walk, and Raji got hurt.

What we're left with is essentially 4-3 personnel, and of course dunderdummy is misusing this incarnation of players - although not as badly as in years past. Playing an elephant is passable with the personnel we have, but not ideal - and there is simply no covering up for how terrible we are at ILB. At least last year we had enough legitimate defensive line talent to cover up for the mess on the second level - but of course dunderdummy shit all over that approach.

I still like a lot of the players, or at least their potential - we should be better than we are. That said, I think we are now undermanned in the front seven to the point where we'll likely fade badly as the season wears on - we simply don't have the horses to hold up. It isn't that we are getting gashed in the run game b/c we are selling out on the pass - we simply can't defend the run against a stout run blocking offensive line. To be fair, some of that is on the personnel, which is on TT, but most of the responsibility lies with dunderdummy.

The NFC is weaker than anyone projected, so we still have a punchers chance, but I'd put us behind at least a few teams in terms or our chances. It's likely another wasted season b/c 1265 simply can't get the defense fixed.

[Bretsky]

You just refuse to believe the evidence of the last three years. Has all of wist's complaining been in vain?

#Picknottheanswer

I love wist as a poster.....but we always end up agreeing to disagree..with Wist setting up Dom for bashing....while in the end I think our failures point more to TT on defense.
There is no way to use Brad Jones correctly...unless....they just cut his ass or trade him to the Bears...they can even throw in a seventh rounder...just for the Bears taking him

[pbmax]

I love wist as a poster.....but we always end up agreeing to disagree..with Wist setting up Dom for bashing....while in the end I think our failures point more to TT on defense.
There is no way to use Brad Jones correctly...unless....they just cut his ass or trade him to the Bears...they can even throw in a seventh rounder...just for the Bears taking him

Dump him sure. But replace with Pickett is a proven way not to get better at run defense. And I think the conundrum with the Texans points to why.

While he has been there, the run D has gotten better. But the pass D and the D overall are no better, if not a little worse.