MVP debate: Who's most deserving? A.Rodgers - JJ Watt - T.Brady - P.Manning - D.Murray?

[Guiness]

Yep. And if you filter the players by ALL you can see where Watt falls on the scale as well. That's about the best evidence there is as to who the MVP is this year. It's a QB driven game. Watt can run away with the DPOY award this year. He deserves it. Rodgers deserves the MVP hands down.

The extent to which Watt is out front of his peers is astounding though, and the fact that it seems he's doing it alone - I could only find one other Texan on the charts, CB J. Joseph. The other player who dominated his position was Bell at the oh-so devalued RB position.

It remains true, however, the state of the league dictates that the QB that had the best season is going to be the league MVP. I'll renew the call for an award specific to the position, à la Cy Young award.

[vince]

Because this is a QB driven league the best QB in the playoffs will win the MVP. I have stated this before but in 2009 Brees had better stats than Manning but the Saints didn't win their division so PM won it much to the consternation of NO fans.


50 members of the media will vote on the 2014 Associated Press NFL Most Valuable Player (MVP) award before the playoffs start on January 3. .

Edit - Oops. I think I misinterpreted what you were saying there Pugger. Sorry about that.

[vince]

The extent to which Watt is out front of his peers is astounding though, and the fact that it seems he's doing it alone - I could only find one other Texan on the charts, CB J. Joseph. The other player who dominated his position was Bell at the oh-so devalued RB position. Watt is basically twice as valuable as any other DE...and Rodgers is twice as valuable (according to this metric) as Watt.

[mraynrand]

That Browns-Colts game was fun to watch. Cleveland's defense was all over Luck and playing as hard and as well as I've seen a defense play this year. They kept getting hung out to dry by Hoyer and I was just fascinated to find out if they could continue giving the ball back to Luck and keep getting the same results. It didn't end well.

You put Wilson at QB there and the Browns win that game by 30.

That Browns-Colts game was the dagger for the Brown's season, because the defense knew there was no way they could play well enough to carry that offense.

[vince]

Aikman just said something about Romo that perfectly encapsulates the Romo-Rodgers comparison. He said Romo's going to do "what he's done all year," rely on his running game for success. Conversely, the Packers running game relies on Rodgers to shift defenses to their advantage for success.

[Pugger]

I'll disagree with this. You put 2 JJ Watts on the same DL with the stats he has (not including his offensive work) and you have an elite defense and that alone would get you 12 wins with an average QB and offense with the pressure and run stopping ability he has. You put 3 on the DL, forget about opponents having any offense.

But you still need a QB. Just ask AZ. They had a great D that got worn down because their offense was so anemic.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24925519/nfl-mvp-final-projection-aaron-rodgers-will-edge-jj-watt-for-mvp

NFL MVP Final Projection: Aaron Rodgers will edge J.J. Watt for MVP

By: John Breech | CBSSports.com

December 31, 2014 3:30 am ET

[Pugger]

Check out this article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1213659-nfl-and-the-least-deserving-player-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-is

The guy not only argues that Paul Hornung didn't deserve being named MVP in 1961, but that Hornung is the least deserving player in the NFL Hall of Fame.

Classic case of letting stats get in the way of "drama."

If any RB should have won that MVP that year it should have been Jimmy Taylor.

[Pugger]

Watt was far more "valuable" this year when he played against the worst/most inexperienced QB's and OL's in the league. 10 of his 20.5 sacks and 3 of his 4 forced fumbles against Ten and Jax.

He's the most disruptive defensive player in the league - but he's not the MVP.

Romo's closer to Rodgers this year but he's not really close either. Romo's been slightly more efficient than Rodgers but only once did he eclipse 300 yards passing this year - against Watt's Texans interestingly enough. Rodgers went over 300 7 times. His stats would have been even better had he not blown teams right off the field before halftime so often.

Romo - 34 TD's against 9 INT's
Rodgers - 38 TDs and 5 INTs

Add the signature wins on top of the blowouts and historical stretch in Nov. and there's no one in the ballpark.

Can you imagine what Aaron's numbers would have been had he played every snap of every game this year? :shock:

[mraynrand]

Aikman just said something about Romo that perfectly encapsulates the Romo-Rodgers comparison. He said Romo's going to do "what he's done all year," rely on his running game for success. Conversely, the Packers running game relies on Rodgers to shift defenses to their advantage for success.

true. Still, I think people don't realize how poor the Cowboy receiving corpse (intentional) really is. Dallas relies on the running game because, with the exception of Bryant (sometimes, when he isn't melting down), their receivers struggle to get open unless there is the threat of the run. And Romo can't throw receivers open the way Rodgers can.

[vince]

Here's a long but good read on your 2014 MVP.

The Toast of Titletown (http://www.nfl.com/labs/rr/toastoftitletown/toastoftitletown)

A bunch of telling quotes in the article but I always like to hear Sitton's perspective on stuff for some reason.

"You wanna know how competitive he is?" Sitton asked. "One day early this season, we have this play (in practice) where he basically has to launch the ball as far as he can out of bounds ... running time off the clock when there are six or seven seconds left and it's fourth down so there's no time left for another play. I told him, 'You don't have the arm for that anymore. You're too old.' He looked at me like, 'FU,' and launched that ball so f----- far, it was ridiculous. That's how he is."

[woodbuck27]

Here's a long but good read on your 2014 MVP.

The Toast of Titletown (http://www.nfl.com/labs/rr/toastoftitletown/toastoftitletown)

A bunch of telling quotes in the article but I always like to hear Sitton's perspective on stuff for some reason.

Holy Cow.

I have to make a plate of sandwiches before reading that.

[woodbuck27]

Here's a long but good read on your 2014 MVP.

The Toast of Titletown (http://www.nfl.com/labs/rr/toastoftitletown/toastoftitletown)

A bunch of telling quotes in the article but I always like to hear Sitton's perspective on stuff for some reason.

A solid story by a good writer and hopefully a man that will support Aaron Rodgers for MVP.

What really struck me wasn't just this incredible season after a 1-2 start; but the fact Aaron Rodgers return last season got the Packers into the playoffs.

That's spelled MVP.

[KYPack]

Here's a long but good read on your 2014 MVP.

The Toast of Titletown (http://www.nfl.com/labs/rr/toastoftitletown/toastoftitletown)

A bunch of telling quotes in the article but I always like to hear Sitton's perspective on stuff for some reason.

Nice article, Vince.

I didn't know Silver could put something like that together.

[denverYooper]

Nice article, Vince.

I didn't know Silver could put something like that together.

As reporters go, he's pretty close to Rodgers... they're both Golden Bear Alum.

[ThunderDan]

true. Still, I think people don't realize how poor the Cowboy receiving corpse (intentional) really is. Dallas relies on the running game because, with the exception of Bryant (sometimes, when he isn't melting down), their receivers struggle to get open unless there is the threat of the run. And Romo can't throw receivers open the way Rodgers can.

But look at Rogers and the Pack. Just a few years ago without a serious running threat we had Jennings, Jordy, Cobb, Jones and Finley. Now with Lacy we can get away with Jordy and Cobb. ARod can do things that Romo can't but a running game can open up the pass.

[denverYooper]

Another article on Rodgers as the new Joe Cool (and the Packers new-age wco) from Chris Brown (smartfootball):

http://grantland.com/features/aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-new-age-west-coast-offense/

[pbmax]

Another article on Rodgers as the new Joe Cool (and the Packers new-age wco) from Chris Brown (smartfootball):

http://grantland.com/features/aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-new-age-west-coast-offense/

Can't recommend that one enough. Its not as long as many of smartfootball's more detailed X and O articles, so its an enjoyably short read. But it has a great sample of the new and old in the Packers offense. Plus, play explaining GIFs, the best thing to happen to football on the Internet in the last 5 years.

[denverYooper]

Can't recommend that one enough. Its not as long as many of smartfootball's more detailed X and O articles, so its an enjoyably short read. But it has a great sample of the new and old in the Packers offense. Plus, play explaining GIFs, the best thing to happen to football on the Internet in the last 5 years.

I thought the comparison to Montana was interesting. Early on, Rodgers was usually compared to Steve Young because of his running ability.

[pbmax]

I thought the comparison to Montana was interesting. Early on, Rodgers was usually compared to Steve Young because of his running ability.

Yeah, people often forget how much a pocket QB Young became over time. Plus his accuracy was a step above Montana's high mark, albeit in slightly different eras.

Rodgers reminds me of Montana in part because he does not seem as physically robust as Young or Favre. Montana/Rodgers seem leaner. Which makes their survival all the more remarkable.

[mraynrand]

But look at Rogers and the Pack. Just a few years ago without a serious running threat we had Jennings, Jordy, Cobb, Jones and Finley. Now with Lacy we can get away with Jordy and Cobb. ARod can do things that Romo can't but a running game can open up the pass.

Sure, the ability to run is a great thing, esp. if you get cold and high winds (see Packers, 2007). But I'd still take the Packers receivers over the Cowboys every time. Just compare R.Rodgers and Witten against Detroit and you can see that one ascending and the other descending have met in the middle. Jordy>>Bryant, Adams>(slightly) Williams (I'd concede Williams slightly better if you pushed me), and Cobb>>Beasley Reece.

Packers d-backs are far superior relative to the Dallas WRs than Dallas DBs to Packer WRs. Without the PKD™, Dallas will struggle to get pressure on Rodgers and he should gut them, assuming the wind isn't ridiculous and his calf holds up.

[mraynrand]

Yeah, people often forget how much a pocket QB Young became over time. Plus his accuracy was a step above Montana's high mark, albeit in slightly different eras.

Rodgers reminds me of Montana in part because he does not seem as physically robust as Young or Favre. Montana/Rodgers seem leaner. Which makes their survival all the more remarkable.

Montana was a squirrelly little guy for 6'2' Rodgers - same height - probably has 25 pounds on him. Helps when you get planted in the turf by Giant defenders.

[ThunderDan]

Sure, the ability to run is a great thing, esp. if you get cold and high winds (see Packers, 2007). But I'd still take the Packers receivers over the Cowboys every time. Just compare R.Rodgers and Witten against Detroit and you can see that one ascending and the other descending have met in the middle. Jordy>>Bryant, Adams>(slightly) Williams (I'd concede Williams slightly better if you pushed me), and Cobb>>Beasley Reece.

Packers d-backs are far superior relative to the Dallas WRs than Dallas DBs to Packer WRs. Without the PKD™, Dallas will struggle to get pressure on Rodgers and he should gut them, assuming the wind isn't ridiculous and his calf holds up.

I would take the Packer WRs also. But if you have a solid running game and a WR like Bryant you can make the O work. When you have a solid running game with Jordy, Cobb and a developing Adams along with ARod you can flourish on O.

[pbmax]

Montana was a squirrelly little guy for 6'2' Rodgers - same height - probably has 25 pounds on him. Helps when you get planted in the turf by Giant defenders.

Yeah, but Young was significantly shorter than Montana I think, and looked stouter. I get the same impression from looking at Favre and Rodgers side by side even if they are virtually the same height.


http://www.nfl.com/content/public/static/html/labs/rr/toastoftitletown/img/Photo-E.jpg

[pbmax]

http://ninerfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/yes.jpg

[mraynrand]

Young was 6'2" as well and about midway maybe between Montana and Rodgers.

[mraynrand]

http://ninerfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/yes.jpg

Ya, Monatana - squirrelly; Young - built like a halfback. Just look at the difference in the thickness of the legs.

[pbmax]

That picture looks straight out of 1988 (which it probably was) but Shanahan looks right out of 1974. Or '64. Would be '54 too but not sure about color football photography in those days. Probably reserved for game days.

[woodbuck27]

That picture looks straight out of 1988 (which it probably was) but Shanahan looks right out of 1974. Or '64. Would be '54 too but not sure about color football photography in those days. Probably reserved for game days.

That photo was taken in 1992.

In 1992 Mike Shanahan was hired as OC for the San Francisco 49ers or the last season that Joe Montana was a 49er.

[Bossman641]

Another article on Rodgers as the new Joe Cool (and the Packers new-age wco) from Chris Brown (smartfootball):

http://grantland.com/features/aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-new-age-west-coast-offense/

Just came here to link to that article. The GIF's are great. About the only thing I disagree with is that the Packers complete 5-10 slants a game.

Also, for as much shit as MM has taken around here I think this quote describes his offenses perfectly...


Football is a cycle. You’re going to see things in this league or out of this league and in college football.’ It’s very important to stay on the front side of that cycle.

[vince]

Another article on Rodgers as the new Joe Cool (and the Packers new-age wco) from Chris Brown (smartfootball):

http://grantland.com/features/aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-new-age-west-coast-offense/
Great article thanks for the link dy.

Most fans haven't yet caught up with the Packers' use of play packages referenced in the article - and the freedom McCarthy gives Rodgers to control (in no-huddle) and/or change the package based on pre-snap reads - making the conventional notion of "playcalling" obsolete.

There's an optimal play option on just about every play against whatever the defense shows if the team executes. Given Rodgers' Mensa-esque football IQ and freedom McCarthy has given him to use it, Rodgers has far more control over the plays that are run than McCarthy.

To say that McCarthy is a good or bad playcaller isn't relevant to the way the Packers operate - at least when Rodgers is on the field.

It does take the cat and mouse game to the next level though because at times I think defenses can show a specific look - and have a good idea about how the Packers are going to want to attack that look. I think this is more true when they want to run the ball. They'll run to the weakness of the defense consistently, and perhaps predictably, which is the right decision in theory but that tendency - to the extent it exists - can give the defense a quick step to overcoming it.

[pbmax]

These guys did a piece on packaged plays a little while ago:

Jersey Al - ALLGBP @JerseyAlGBP · 10h 10 hours ago
@smartfootball We took a look at #Packers packaged plays a week ago: http://ow.ly/GWX4I

And just to note, the first time I saw them mentioned as part of the Packers offense, it was smart football talking about the Read-Stick. Mesh with RB, watch OLB. If he committed to LOS, throw stick route to slot or TE. If he stayed in coverage, hand it off.

[George Cumby]

Love the Sig', PB.

[Smidgeon]

Honestly, I thought packaged plays were standard in the NFL for years. Source: I was using similar concepts in Madden back in 2008 to rack up 80+ points per game on the hard mode (yes, that's tongue in cheek). I expected head coaches and playcallers to be on that stuff a long time ago. My football IQ isn't that high.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000456836/article/aaron-rodgers-limited-but-still-shows-mvp-form-in-win

Aaron Rodgers limited, but still shows MVP form in win ( Over Dallas @ Lambeau Field ... Sun. 11 Jan. 2015 )

By: Chris Wesseling .... Around the NFL Writer

Published: Jan. 11, 2015 at 05:09 p.m. ... Updated: Jan. 11, 2015 at 11:27 p.m.

[vince]

Rodgers is your MVP - by the Pro Football Writers of America (http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/14/pfwa-aaron-rodgers-mvp)

[smuggler]

That's nice, but they dropped one in Matt Ryan's lap a few years back, so frankly it does not mean much.

[woodbuck27]

Rodgers is your MVP - by the Pro Football Writers of America (http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/14/pfwa-aaron-rodgers-mvp)

Aaron Rodgers is by far the obvious choice.

He still needs one more nod of approval. The AP.

He'll also receive that.

[woodbuck27]

Green Bay Packers @packers

#Packers QB Aaron Rodgers is a finalist for the Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year Award: pack.rs/2clw0