Best QB in football

[Packers4Glory]

"Joe Flacco, what can you say," Harbaugh said. "He's the best quarterback in football. We'll take him any day of the week, twice on Sunday or Saturday if that be the case."

discuss

[Zool]

discuss

What do he sposed to say?

[Packers4Glory]

What do he sposed to say?

not something so blatantly stupid. He could say "he's a great QB and wer're lucky to have him on our side". anything like that. Calling him the best in football is dumb and arrogant. He's not even as good as Romo.

[LP]

After commenting, Harbaugh was immediately taken to the training room for drug and alcohol testing.

[smuggler]

Don't forget the contract they gave him. They are obviously higher on him than most people in the game of football.

[pbmax]

Mike Sando, ESPN.com ‏@SandoESPN Jan 3
Flacco in 5 most recent playoff games: 91-155 (58.7) for 1399 yards (9.0 ypa) with 13 TD, 0 INT, 116.6 passer rating, 84.7 QBR, 5-0 W-L.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-flacco-is-the-king-of-the-nfl-playoffs-1420414837

WSJ is also pushing Flacco's 10 playoff wins as anointing him the best playoff QB today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6mDXSBIAAA-zwY.jpg:large

[smuggler]

He's certainly been on-point in the last five playoff games. Personally, and knowing how Flacco plays normally, I feel that just goes to show how incredibly underrated John Harbaugh is as a coach.

Also, I think it's mindless to put a win next to a quarterback's name. The win (or loss) belongs to the team. Dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[King Friday]

I'll wait until after this weekend to crown his ass.

If he can beat the Pats in Foxboro again...then I'll place the mantle of Joe Montana upon him.

Mark Sanchez rode a fabulous defense to a 4-2 playoff record too...so is he better than Brady and Manning?

[call_me_ishmael]

John Harbaugh is the best coach in the NFL. Okay, fine, second best :whaa:

His brother is third best. The 49ers are idiots for getting rid of him.

Ozzie Newsome is probably the best GM, too. He consistently puts a pretty good roster together.

Flacco is underrated. He is great when it counts.

[woodbuck27]

John Harbaugh is the best coach in the NFL. Okay, fine, second best :whaa:

His brother is third best. The 49ers are idiots for getting rid of him.

Ozzie Newsome is probably the best GM, too. He consistently puts a pretty good roster together.

Flacco is underrated. He is great when it counts.

Doesn't it really come down to winning in the playoffs? He plays QB in a solid organization with a good HC and GM.

Flacco is a clutch performer.

He's very good at extending plays until one of his receivers gets open.

[Pugger]

All I know is I'd rather have our #12 over any other QB - including Flacco.

[sharpe1027]

Do we then assume that Flacco is taking plays off during the regular season? I mean if we attribute the teams wins and his rating over a small sample size of playoff games to him being that good, then we must assume he is underperforming the rest of the time, right?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Not saying Flacco is the best QB in the league, but how you perform in the playoffs counts twice as much. Those last five games tells me when the playoffs start he turns it on. That can't be ignored when discussing a Qb's legacy. Other than the superbowl run, Rodgers record in the playoffs has not been impressive. He needs to make some noise this year because the defense is good enough to win with and the offense has talent and is healthy. Can't blame those two factors this year.

[KYPack]

Do we then assume that Flacco is taking plays off during the regular season? I mean if we attribute the teams wins and his rating over a small sample size of playoff games to him being that good, then we must assume he is underperforming the rest of the time, right?

Flacco does "phone games in" during the regular season.

People talk about how laid back he is, sometimes when his team gets down, he acts like he doesn't give a shit.

[woodbuck27]

Do we then assume that Flacco is taking plays off during the regular season? I mean if we attribute the teams wins and his rating over a small sample size of playoff games to him being that good, then we must assume he is underperforming the rest of the time, right?

That he takes plays off during the regular season may be argued but the thing with Joe Flacco is that he's unflappable. He plays it cool; he doesn't show his emotions on the sidelines. He's on the field and does his thing and then simply off the field and calmly awaits his turn again with the offense.

I see it this way and Joe Flacco:

He's 10-4 in the playoffs and this weekend facing Tom Brady (the record holder for playoff wins with 18); yet who's record over the same time that Flacco has played in the NFL (2008-14) is 4W-5L

RE: This weekend Baltimore @ New England.

In three playoff meetings with New England Joe Flacco and the Baltimore Ravens have won two games.



Compared to all other QB's in the NFL since his arrival in the NFL. Joe Flacco is clearly the best QB in the league in terms of wins. It's all about wins in the playoffs (he has 10) and no other QB has more wins since 2008?

Since 2008 and looking at other top NFL QB's:

Aaron Rodgers has won 5.

Ben Roethlisberger has won 5.

Drew Brees has won 5.

Russell Wilson has won 4.

Tom Brady has won 4.

Peyton Manning has won 4.

Eli Manning has won 4.

[ThunderDan]

Not saying Flacco is the best QB in the league, but how you perform in the playoffs counts twice as much. Those last five games tells me when the playoffs start he turns it on. That can't be ignored when discussing a Qb's legacy. Other than the superbowl run, Rodgers record in the playoffs has not been impressive. He needs to make some noise this year because the defense is good enough to win with and the offense has talent and is healthy. Can't blame those two factors this year.

Yeah, but it sure helps a QB to have a defense like the Ravens did during their Super Bowl run. He played excellent in the 2012 playoff run. But any credit before that in 08-11 is squarely on the Ravens' defense.

As an example in 2008-9 he was 3-2 in playoff games. Here is his stat line:
57/120 47.5% 660 yards (132 ypg) 1 TD and 6 INTs.

You have to have a damn good defense to win with your QB playing like that.

[woodbuck27]

Yeah, but it sure helps a QB to have a defense like the Ravens did during their Super Bowl run. He played excellent in the 2012 playoff run. But any credit before that in 08-11 is squarely on the Ravens' defense.

As an example in 2008-9 he was 3-2 in playoff games. Here is his stat line:
57/120 47.5% 660 yards (132 ypg) 1 TD and 6 INTs.

You have to have a damn good defense to win with your QB playing like that.

The record shows that Joe Flacco has a 10-4 record in the playoffs.

Nothing else disqualifies that fact he was the QB on a 10-4 team.

How can you make excuses against a man with a winning record? Unless you really enjoy argument?

[mraynrand]

The record shows that Joe Flacco has a 10-4 record in the playoffs.

Nothing else disqualifies that fact he was the QB on a 10-4 team.

How can you make excuses against a man with a winning record? Unless you really enjoy argument?

yup. Joe Flacco is just like Bart Starr or Otto Graham - all he does is win. It's much tougher to win a championship now because you have to win 3 or 4 games in a row, unlike Starr and Graham who had to win 1 or 2 games, but Flacco is like a modern Graham. He knows how to win.

Best QB in football? Nah, but he should be in the conversation.

[ThunderDan]

The record shows that Joe Flacco has a 10-4 record in the playoffs.

Nothing else disqualifies that fact he was the QB on a 10-4 team.

How can you make excuses against a man with a winning record? Unless you really enjoy argument?

Did you know that Sam Koch must be one of the greatest punters of all time. He has a 10-5 record in the playoffs.

Just because you were the QB doesn't mean your team won because of you.

In 2008 the Raven's D was ranked #2 in total D and allowed 15.2 ppg. Their O was ranked 18th overall. 28th in passing at 175 ypg and 4th in rushing at 148 ypg.

[mraynrand]

Did you know that Sam Koch must be one of the greatest punters of all time. He has a 10-5 record in the playoffs.

Just because you were the QB doesn't mean your team won because of you.

In 2008 the Raven's D was ranked #2 in total D and allowed 15.2 ppg. Their O was ranked 18th overall. 28th in passing at 175 ypg and 4th in rushing at 148 ypg.

That's just silly. As though the punter touches the ball every offensive possession. Even teams with outrageously good defenses need a reasonably good QB to win games, and win championships, because sometimes, the defense falters. The Ravens had years and years of very good defenses and no championships because the QB wasn't good enough, then in comes Flacco. Flacco has won games with drives and bombs, and various great throws when the Ravens have needed it. He isn't Dan Marino, but then hey, Dan Marino couldn't carry his team to a championship, so that must mean he sucked. :)

[woodbuck27]

Did you know that Sam Koch must be one of the greatest punters of all time. He has a 10-5 record in the playoffs.

Just because you were the QB doesn't mean your team won because of you.

In 2008 the Raven's D was ranked #2 in total D and allowed 15.2 ppg. Their O was ranked 18th overall. 28th in passing at 175 ypg and 4th in rushing at 148 ypg.

San Koch ... an outstanding Baltimore Raven punter. Thanks for the trivia.

We're discussing NFL QB's and specifically related to Joe Flacco's tenure as a Baltimore Raven QB compared to all other NFL QBs?

[mraynrand]

Sometimes a very good QB isn't enough, even if you have the #1 defense. Just ask the 2010 and 2011 Steelers (they probably needed a HOF punter).

[ThunderDan]

That's just silly. As though the punter touches the ball every offensive possession. Even teams with outrageously good defenses need a reasonably good QB to win games, and win championships, because sometimes, the defense falters. The Ravens had years and years of very good defenses and no championships because the QB wasn't good enough, then in comes Flacco. Flacco has won games with drives and bombs, and various great throws when the Ravens have needed it. He isn't Dan Marino, but then hey, Dan Marino couldn't carry his team to a championship, so that must mean he sucked. :)

It is perfectly silly. So is saying that Joe Flacco is responsible for the Baltimore playoff success in certain years. He played awesome in the 2012 Super Bowl run. Other than that he has been an average QB who has benefited from playing on a team with a dominant defense for years.

Football is the ultimate team game.

[mraynrand]

It is perfectly silly. So is saying the Joe Flacco is responsible for the Baltimore playoff success in certain years. He played awesome in the 2012 Super Bowl run. Other than that he has been an average QB who has benefited from playing on a team with a dominant defense for years.

Football is the ultimate team game.

Of course, then NO QB is responsible for playoff success, and we're right back at square one, trying to figure out who's best, but now using less or no criteria.

Big Ben benefitted from the #1 defense two year's running and couldn't win a SB and a WC game. Flacco did better over a similar two year run. That's not definitive at all, but it's a way of comparison. Of course, I ignored the contribution of the sideline water bottle guy, which may have been critical.

[woodbuck27]

It is perfectly silly. So is saying that Joe Flacco is responsible for the Baltimore playoff success in certain years. He played awesome in the 2012 Super Bowl run. Other than that he has been an average QB who has benefited from playing on a team with a dominant defense for years.

Football is the ultimate team game.

"Football is the ultimate team game." ThunderDan

Exactly why is that ThunderDan?

Why is football the ultimate team game?

[mraynrand]

"Football is the ultimate team game." ThunderDan

Exactly why is that ThunderDan?

Why is football the ultimate team game?

The ultimate team game is ultimate frisbee

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/04/120411_SN_ultimateFrisbeeMens.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg

[Zool]

Trent



Dilfer

[mraynrand]

Trent



Dilfer

I knew someone would eventually bring him up. Now make your argument.

[denverYooper]

That's just silly. As though the punter touches the ball every offensive possession. Even teams with outrageously good defenses need a reasonably good QB to win games, and win championships, because sometimes, the defense falters. The Ravens had years and years of very good defenses and no championships because the QB wasn't good enough, then in comes Flacco. Flacco has won games with drives and bombs, and various great throws when the Ravens have needed it. He isn't Dan Marino, but then hey, Dan Marino couldn't carry his team to a championship, so that must mean he sucked. :)

Denver fans are painfully familiar with this.

His bombs in the NFC Divisional game were the beginning of the end for Champ Bailey.

[ThunderDan]

Of course, then NO QB is responsible for playoff success, and we're right back at square one, trying to figure out who's best, but now using less or no criteria.

Big Ben benefitted from the #1 defense two year's running and couldn't win a SB and a WC game. Flacco did better over a similar two year run. That's not definitive at all, but it's a way of comparison. Of course, I ignored the contribution of the sideline water bottle guy, which may have been critical.

That is not what I said. Every player has a part in the team's success or failure. QBs are the face of most franchises so they get too much of the praise and too much of the blame.

This line of your is like the thread where you want to compare demographics and you got pissy because Patler asked if income level should be considered.

[Zool]

I knew someone would eventually bring him up. Now make your argument.

It turns out, there's no formula to win the superbowl. You can be below average in 1 aspect and be fantastic in another. Or you can be top 10 in all phases. This has been an interesting thread to watch, though. Lots of Baltimore Ravens experts.

Brad Johnson

[woodbuck27]

All I know is I'd rather have our #12 over any other QB - including Flacco.

:!:

[hoosier]

It turns out, there's no formula to win the superbowl. You can be below average in 1 aspect and be fantastic in another. Or you can be top 10 in all phases. This has been an interesting thread to watch, though. Lots of Baltimore Ravens experts.

Brad Johnson

Your argument would be so much more compelling if the '82 Dolphins had somehow found a way to hold on against the Skins. David Woodley!

[Zool]

Your argument would be so much more compelling if the '82 Dolphins had somehow found a way to hold on against the Skins. David Woodley!

Terry Bradshaw was a mediocre QB by most measures, but he won 4. Actually he compares well to Flacco.

[mraynrand]

That is not what I said. Every player has a part in the team's success or failure. QBs are the face of most franchises so they get too much of the praise and too much of the blame.

This line of your is like the thread where you want to compare demographics and you got pissy because Patler asked if income level should be considered.

Well, right or wrong about the other thread, we're still at the point of what criteria can be used to determine the best QBs. What are the criteria?

[mraynrand]

It turns out, there's no formula to win the superbowl. You can be below average in 1 aspect and be fantastic in another. Or you can be top 10 in all phases. This has been an interesting thread to watch, though. Lots of Baltimore Ravens experts.

Brad Johnson

I agree with the bolded part, of course, because Pittsburgh lost one with the best defense and a QB who many consider one of the best, but nothing you wrote helps in determining how to rank the QBs.

And the snide remark about Ravens experts applies to you as well. So we need experts to resolve this, I guess. does that apply to every other question as well? Goodbye Packerrats then. LOL.


Warren Moon*








*I can 'cryptically' write QB names too

[mraynrand]

Terry Bradshaw was a mediocre QB by most measures, but he won 4. Actually he compares well to Flacco.

I disagree. Flacco is much more accurate than Bradshaw. Still, based on the leader argument, Bradshaw is every bit as good as Starr was.

[Zool]

I agree with the bolded part, of course, because Pittsburgh lost one with the best defense and a QB who many consider one of the best, but nothing you wrote helps in determining how to rank the QBs.

And the snide remark about Ravens experts applies to you as well. So we need experts to resolve this, I guess. does that apply to every other question as well? Goodbye Packerrats then. LOL.


Warren Moon*








*I can 'cryptically' write QB names too

You're always right Ayn. It must be tough living among the plebes.

Mark Rypien

[mraynrand]

Your argument would be so much more compelling if the '82 Dolphins had somehow found a way to hold on against the Skins. David Woodley!

what exactly is the argument? That Flacco is a mediocre QB because lousy or mediocre QBs have won Super Bowls with good defenses? Seems like a poor argument using one data point to make an argument. The pro Flacco argument is that he's won 10 and lost 4 in the playoffs including a Super Bowl and overall has shown to be a winning QB, defense or no (Ironically, when Flacco won the SB, the defense was ranked in the middle teens as opposed to top 5 in previous years).

I don't think Flacco is the best QB in the NFL, but I don't think it's a ridiculous thing for the coach to say. It would be ridiculous for AZ or Chi to say it.

[mraynrand]

You're always right Ayn. It must be tough living among the plebes.

Mark Rypien

I suffer fools poorly



Jim Kelly

[mraynrand]

Interesting points about Dilfer and Johnson - Neither Baltimore nor Tampa could have won the SB without them. Banks was not good enough, and Packer fans with a long enough memory will recall that the Packers were on their way to beating TB in 2002 with the Other Johnson (Rob) playing. So a great defense is not enough.

Brad Johnson wasn't all that bad a QB either, he was just getting pretty old and beat up by 2002. Still, I recall with amusement that he was involved in the sequence whereby Florida State essentially lost a shot at a national championship because Casey Weldon lost his shoe and Bobby Bowden wouldn't let Brad throw the ball on third down....

[vince]

Well, right or wrong about the other thread, we're still at the point of what criteria can be used to determine the best QBs. What are the criteria?
Really good start right here.
Individual Win Probability Added and Expected Points Added (http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/tools/vizualizations/position-leaders)

[Zool]

I suffer fools poorly



Jim Kelly

http://31.media.tumblr.com/526df2d953b929f985639150f980c254/tumblr_mrr6mnKkMu1ql5royo2_250.gif

[mraynrand]

Rohan will answer

[Striker]

Interesting points about Dilfer and Johnson - Neither Baltimore nor Tampa could have won the SB without them. Banks was not good enough, and Packer fans with a long enough memory will recall that the Packers were on their way to beating TB in 2002 with the Other Johnson (Rob) playing. So a great defense is not enough.

Brad Johnson wasn't all that bad a QB either, he was just getting pretty old and beat up by 2002. Still, I recall with amusement that he was involved in the sequence whereby Florida State essentially lost a shot at a national championship because Casey Weldon lost his shoe and Bobby Bowden wouldn't let Brad throw the ball on third down....

I wonder where Eli Manning fits into this conversation.

He has 2 rings and is 8-3 in the playoffs.

[mraynrand]

I wonder where Eli Manning fits into this conversation.

He has 2 rings and is 8-3 in the playoffs.

Feast or famine with that guy

[woodbuck27]

pbmax:

My apology. I wasn't aware of your post #6 'this thread' when I made my post #15.

[pbmax]

Feast or famine with that guy

Eli needs time and deep routes to be most effective. He is very similar to Flacco, though perhaps less accurate short.

[vince]

This seems to be a pretty accurate assessment of Flacco's strengths and weaknesses (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1504607-joe-flacco-vs-colin-kaepernick-breaking-down-the-sbxlvii-qb-battle) from 2013 before the Ravens Super Bowl win.


Flacco has prototypical size. At 6'6" and 232 pounds, he's about as tall as they come but relatively lean. His height, length and good mechanics give him a very high release point. His frame and strong base make him hard to bring down.

Flacco's footwork and arm strength are quite good. He can set his feet and drive the ball on all intermediate and deep routes. Flacco's biggest weakness is in his accuracy.

Despite sound mechanics, he often fails to place the ball catchably on short routes, which stalls a lot of drives with incomplete passes. Flacco completed just 59.7 percent of his passes this regular season, 19th in the NFL.

He also often misses deep and/or wide on sideline routes. This is Flacco's game: the hit-or-miss deep ball.

According to Pro Football Focus (subscription required), Joe Flacco launched it 20 yards or deeper on 17.3 percent of his passes, the highest in the NFL this season. His "Accuracy Percentage," or completion percentage adjusted for drops, on those passes was just 40.2 percent. That slots him 18th in the NFL among quarterbacks with at least 25 percent of their team's attempts.

Incredibly, though, Flacco connected for 11 deep touchdowns this season—and he didn't throw any interceptions.

This is what makes Flacco effective as an NFL quarterback. When it comes to moving the chains, he's below average, even bad. When PFF applies their Accuracy Percentage to all pass attempts, removing spikes, batted balls, throwaways and times when quarterbacks are hit while throwing, Flacco ranks 33rd.

Yes, 33rd, behind such studs asKevin Kolb and Brady Quinn.

But when Flacco goes deep—and he goes deep more often than anyone else—it's all upside. He either connects for a game-breaking pass, or it falls incomplete.

[mraynrand]

^^^ wow, I always saw him as pretty accurate - but of course I'm no expert.

[pbmax]

^^^ wow, I always saw him as pretty accurate - but of course I'm no expert.

Before the Super Bowl (even after) the fan question on the Ravens O was why would they ignore the fantastic running game to allow the inaccurate QB to throw more.

[smuggler]

Great post, vince. Goes to show how a good defense and well-timed deep shots can be so effective in the modern game.

[ThunderDan]

So Flacco isn't the greatest of all-time? Who knew?

[woodbuck27]

Tom Brady has won an NFL best 18 playoff games. Brady's overall record is 18-8.

Joe Flacco sits at a playoff record of 10-4. If he wants to be in the argument as being the best playoff QB he needs to lead the Ravens to a 'W' this weekend in New England.

18-9 = 0.667

11-4 = 0.7333 and that's very good !

It looks like 'a walk the talk' situation to me.

[mraynrand]

So Flacco isn't the greatest of all-time? Who knew?

All of us. Of course, that wasn't really the point up for debate.

[ThunderDan]

All of us. Of course, that wasn't really the point up for debate.

BINGO!

[mraynrand]

BINGO!

And my conclusion is that it makes total sense for Harbaugh to say that he has the best QB in football. Greatest of all time? No. And the coach wasn't arguing that either. A QB who wins as much as Flacco, and has won playoff games for you, even when the defense broke down, is worthy of that kind of support from his coach. Just like Starr, who was physically limited, and who also benefitted from a great supporting cast, but not all the time.

[Bossman641]

Putting on my pregame NFL/CBS hat here...in the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE..you need a complete team to advance in the playoffs. Judging QB's by W/L record is pretty pointless

As evidence, the Packer D has given up an average of 39 ppg over the past 4 playoff losses. Tough to win with that kind of support.

[woodbuck27]

Putting on my pregame NFL/CBS hat here...in the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE..you need a complete team to advance in the playoffs. Judging QB's by W/L record is pretty pointless

As evidence, the Packer D has given up an average of 39 ppg over the past 4 playoff losses. Tough to win with that kind of support.

If that continues this weekend Aaron Rodgers must be at his very best.

Packer receivers need to catch and hold onto the ball.

[pbmax]

Flacco Deep Passing:


Five Nights at Flacco's. You probably did not find Brady's Actual Deep passing statistics particularly shocking. Well, get ready to have your face melted.

Here are Joe Flacco's Actual Deep passing numbers: 15-of-40, 548 yards, six touchdowns and one interception. That's right, Flacco throws deep less frequently than Brady and less frequently than the NFL average. Gary Kubiak has shaved some of the 60-yard heaves off the Ravens offense this year, replacing them with his signature play-action rollouts to tight ends or receivers on crossing routes.

Tanier: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2322164-nfl-divisional-playoff-picks-paths-to-victory-for-four-road-underdogs

[Fritz]

Clark Hinkle.