ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[Bretsky]

So many reasons why that game was f'cked up on so many levels.
But not many seem to be focusing on Aaron Rodgers
Does he get a free pass due to the calf ?

Truth be told, all season I said Rodgers needs to be great for the Packers to be very good.

Before the game I'd have said Rodgers needs to be at his best for Green Bay to beat Seattle

TRUTH BE TOLD, Rodgers was below average against Seattle. Two more picks and one TD when Cobb was all alone.

He made a horrible throw on the pick and left points on the board when he misfired to Adams
I recall a terribly low throw to Cobb that he had to fall down to catch; if that throw is where it should be a drive continues.

And while MM once again proved to be the Anti Hoody Genius when given the chance to bury a team, I do wonder if Rodgers could have audibled here and there.

To me he was very average.

When Aaron Rodgers is average, Green Bay Loses to good teams.

Thoughts .................

[Carolina_Packer]

His weakest games in 2014 were at Detroit and at Buffalo. He had a good statistical game vs. New Orleans, but the defense was gashed, and first Seattle game was a total team let down. The Buffalo game hurt the most because it ended up leading Green Bay away from home field throughout the playoffs where they may have sealed the deal yesterday, although where they played was less important to how they played.

[Freak Out]

He didn't have a great game for sure and the calf injury was a big factor. I was upset when he threw the first pick to Sherman....the guy is really freaking good....he should have waited to attack until he was playing with one arm. Everyone saw how bad it was when he went to run for the first down. Is he due some criticism? Sure...why not.

[Sactopackfan]

Rodgers thought he caught the Hawks offside on that interception to Sherman. Average performance for sure, but with a bad wheel against probably the best defense in the NFL I wouldn't put a lot on him.

[Rutnstrut]

Does Rodgers get a pass? On this board of course he does. But Favre never would have gotten the same pass by the same people. How about Flynn, had Rodgers been hurt and Flynn put up the exact same numbers. Everyone would be screaming about how bad Flynn is, and if Rodgers would have played it would have been different. Rodgers played, and played pretty poorly therefore he gets a good portion of the blame. Not as much as dumbass stubby though.

[pbmax]

Does Rodgers get a pass? On this board of course he does. But Favre never would have gotten the same pass by the same people. How about Flynn, had Rodgers been hurt and Flynn put up the exact same numbers. Everyone would be screaming about how bad Flynn is, and if Rodgers would have played it would have been different. Rodgers played, and played pretty poorly therefore he gets a good portion of the blame. Not as much as dumbass stubby though.

Yes, there was never any Favre worship on this board. That's an absolutely accurate comment. :roll:

The injury makes it tough to judge. Is he getting a free pass this year? Yes, because how can I separate out his play from his injury?

[Rutnstrut]

Yes, there was never any Favre worship on this board. That's an absolutely accurate comment. :roll:

The injury makes it tough to judge. Is he getting a free pass this year? Yes, because how can I separate out his play from his injury?

I seem to remember some that would bitch about Favre when he would play hurt. They would say he was hurting the team more by playing hurt, than if he would sit out. Perhaps that's true of Rodgers also?

[Striker]

I don't think anyone is really giving Rodgers a pass. I've seen his name come up several times for under performing.

He was erratic, but I don't fault him too much for the picks. It sure looks like Bennett was in the neutral zone on the first pick, and the second pick appeared to be a miscommunication.

[mraynrand]

Did Manning get a pass for how he played against Seattle in the SB last year? Didn't most attribute the result to the great Seattle defense?

The injury was a huge factor, unfortunately. there were a lot of yards left on the field that Rodgers could have captured running against man/matchup coverage. His run on the final drive showed how hobbled he truly was. Moreover, as PB pointed out, the injury changed what they could do in the offensive backfield.

Still, Rodgers managed the game plan pretty well. It worked and should have given them the win.

What would people be saying right now had bostick blocked, jordy recovered and the Packers run out the clock? You little complaining pissants would be bragging about one of the greatest playoff upsets in history. Man I hate you people.

[vince]

What would people be saying right now had bostick blocked, jordy recovered and the Packers run out the clock? You little complaining pissants would be bragging about one of the greatest playoff upsets in history. Man I hate you people.
It's true! Other than the hate.

[Joemailman]

It may sound like I'm making excuses for him, but I will always believe the Packers would be in the Super Bowl if not for the calf injury. Not only did it affect his throws, but it took away his rollouts. Nelson and Cobb were as good as I've ever seen at finding seams in a defense as the QB buys time by rolling out. And when it came time to seal the game with the 4 minute offense, the ball was taken out of his hands.

[Patler]

The calf impacts Rodgers performance even in subtle ways. One example:

Packers final drive, after Rodgers scrambled for 12 ("normal" Rodger would have gotten more than 12) it was clear that his leg was bothering. He hopped and skipped the last four of five steps of the run. Next play, 1st and 10 from Seattle 36, play breaks down, Rodgers releases to his right, with a fair amount of room to run, and Lacy in front of him. Rodgers clearly does not want to run, and shuttles an awkward throw toward Lacy just as Lacy turns to block, thinking Rodgers will run. Pass falls incomplete. "Normal" Rodgers keeps in that situation and picks up a decent gain. Instead, it goes as an incomplete pass.

[pbmax]

The calf impacts Rodgers performance even in subtle ways. One example:

Packers final drive, after Rodgers scrambled for 12 ("normal" Rodger would have gotten more than 12) it was clear that his leg was bothering. He hopped and skipped the last four of five steps of the run. Next play, 1st and 10 from Seattle 36, play breaks down, Rodgers releases to his right, with a fair amount of room to run, and Lacy in front of him. Rodgers clearly does not want to run, and shuttles an awkward throw toward Lacy just as Lacy turns to block, thinking Rodgers will run. Pass falls incomplete. "Normal" Rodgers keeps in that situation and picks up a decent gain. Instead, it goes as an incomplete pass.

Yep. I thought Lacy was crazy to think he was going to run, but I understand that is what he is used to.

[Patler]

Typically, Rodgers is very rarely late on a throw. The last three games, he was often late. The throw intercepted by Sherman was late. Adams initially gained separation and if the throw had been a tick quicker getting there, Adams probably catches it for a TD. As I recall, the incompletion to R. Rodgers on second down just before the FG to tie was also lust a bit late, allowing the LB to tighten up and dislodge the reception. Throwing windows are small in the NFL, and late throws are caught for no yac, are incomplete, or are intercepted. I think Rodgers timing has been off, because he has been moving cautiously, with plodding steps. His drops and movements are slower, disrupting delicate timing. Lastly, he strides more tentaviley into long throws, and probably has less "drive" on his throws. As a result, his unique accuracy was diminished.

[vince]

Typically, Rodgers is very rarely late on a throw. The last three games, he was often late. The throw intercepted by Sherman was late. Adams initially gained separation and if the throw had been a tick quicker getting there, Adams probably catches it for a TD. As I recall, the incompletion to R. Rodgers on second down just before the FG to tie was also lust a bit late, allowing the LB to tighten up and dislodge the reception. Throwing windows are small in the NFL, and late throws are caught for no yac, are incomplete, or are intercepted. I think Rodgers timing has been off, because he has been moving cautiously, with plodding steps. His drops and movements are slower, disrupting delicate timing. Lastly, he strides more tentaviley into long throws, and probably has less "drive" on his throws. As a result, his unique accuracy was diminished.Good points. Also, the swirling wind may have played a factor - in both QB's performance.

[Patler]

Yep. I thought Lacy was crazy to think he was going to run, but I understand that is what he is used to.

Exactly. A runningback with a more stationary QB stays facing the QB forever, to be available for a pass. Playing with a guy like Rodgers you are conditioned to Rodgers picking up yards in that situation with his legs.

[Patler]

Good points. Also, the swirling wind may have played a factor - in both QB's performance.

I'm sure the wind and rain hurt this week, but Rodgers timing and accuracy have been off the last three games. I'm fairly certain the calf has been a major factor in that.

[denverYooper]

Typically, Rodgers is very rarely late on a throw. The last three games, he was often late. The throw intercepted by Sherman was late. Adams initially gained separation and if the throw had been a tick quicker getting there, Adams probably catches it for a TD. As I recall, the incompletion to R. Rodgers on second down just before the FG to tie was also lust a bit late, allowing the LB to tighten up and dislodge the reception. Throwing windows are small in the NFL, and late throws are caught for no yac, are incomplete, or are intercepted. I think Rodgers timing has been off, because he has been moving cautiously, with plodding steps. His drops and movements are slower, disrupting delicate timing. Lastly, he strides more tentaviley into long throws, and probably has less "drive" on his throws. As a result, his unique accuracy was diminished.

I have to agree with Patler here. Footwork is one of the most important aspects of a QB's timing and rhythm. Rodgers and M3 stress footwork probably more than any coach/QB combo out there as the foundation for a solid passing game. On the road, against what many consider to be the best defense of our generation, Rodgers was dealing with a significant impediment to his style of play.

There have been plenty of playoff games where we can fault Rodgers (San Fran a couple of times, for instance, vs. the Bears in the NFCC the first time, etc) but this is not one.

[LP]

You little complaining pissants

There's a vast understatement!

[MadtownPacker]

Agree with all, his calf was fucked and when he rolled his ankle when he went down showed he was putting his weight on the other leg. I don't have much blame for Rodgers. He has made it obvious he did not like what took place offensively for the Packers throughout the game.

I will say what he held back from saying..

Fucking M3 blew it!!!

[Patler]

I for one don't think we should give AR a free pass, injury or not. He is a highly paid professional, and needs to perform better, injury or not. If he doesn't, he should pay us all. Only then does he get a pass.

FREE pass??? Baloney!!

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd settle for 5 minutes with Olivia.

Is that wrong? Just to hold hands and talk.

[woodbuck27]

I for one don't think we should give AR a free pass, injury or not. He is a highly paid professional, and needs to perform better, injury or not. If he doesn't, he should pay us all. Only then does he get a pass.

FREE pass??? Baloney!!

I can't tell if your serious.

I've been thinking about Aaron Rodgers performance in the NFC championship game since that game began.

I have to develop my post.

[woodbuck27]

In the Divisional final Vs Dallas Aaron Rodgers numbers were:

24 of 35 (68.6%) For 316 yards and 3 TD and 0 Picks. His QBR was 125.42

All that sure looked encouraging.


In the NFC Championship his numbers:

19 of 34 (55.8%) For 178 yards and 1 TD and 2 Picks. his QBR was 55.76


He was one more week removed from his original calf injury date. He was given comprehensive treatment and afforded every positive measure for more recovery than we observed Vs Dallas.


Members here want to blame his very poor performance on the wind. His QBR fell of almost 70 Points. It was about 55 Points below his avg. QBR for the season.

What really was going on?

It was a lot more than the calf and the wind that threw him off his game folks.

We may never really know what it really was but damn Aaron Rodgers played poorly in the game vs Seattle.

I would love it if that man could be open and honest. To inform us of the TRUTH.

Do I blame him for the loss. He was just another part of that loss. Except 'he' didn't seem to be having a lot of fun.

Here at Packerrats we have or nearly have anointed Aaron Rodgers as the GREATEST QB in NFL History.

So the way he played on Sunday ...to play so much worse than he did Vs Dallas. Now in a huge game pass the ball as poorly as he did and not help more to bury Seattle in that game. I'm simply blown away by what I saw and terribly disappointed as that game was going and flipped the other way.

Give Aaron Rodgers a FREE PASS?

Are you kidding me. This whole thing really really stinks !

[Noodle]

I agree (i think) with Blue Dog, no free pass. He didn't play well, missing some critical throws, with the line bustin' their humps to give him plenty of time in the pocket.

One thing about the calf -- it negated the ability to do effective play action from under center. Damn i would have loved to see some play action on the drive after the last pick, with everyone expecting Lacey to run.

[woodbuck27]

The NFL network is replaying the game right now... minus the ton of commercials (I hope).

I erased my original recording after studying it yesterday and this morning.

I'm recording and keeping this one for some time. To study it with different focuses.

[wist43]

He played well enough for us to win... don't think it is even a matter of saying he gets a pass - he doesn't need a pass.

He was playing against the best defense in the league, in a hostile environment, and at less than 100%. He had receivers drop passes, and the 2nd pick wasn't his fault at all - it was Cobb's fault b/c he stopped his route.

This game was lost by the coaching staff - pure and simple.

I'm not freaking out about the FG's early, although I though the playcalling was putrid - even with those lost points, we still had the game won in the 2nd half, had the game won with 5 minutes left in the game - had the game won, if only MM and dunderdummy coach to win, instead of coach not to lose.

Championship game, you have the chance to close them out - you close them out!!! You don't play timid and hope the clock runs out before you luck runs out. MM and dunderdummy were pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

The players deserved better. The fans deserved better.

TT needs to sit down and have a heart to heart with MM, and dunderdummy needs to be fired - but neither of those things will happen. I seriously doubt we can win another SB with this regime in place. 2010 was a fluke.

[HarveyWallbangers]

ARod thought he had a free play and he should have had one. They choked it away, but what he's saying is true.

http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/17946/aaron-rodgers-refs-missed-penalty-on-int

[smuggler]

I think the playcalling was worse than Rodgers' play, by far. As far as the interception, offsides is reviewable. So, that, again, falls on McCarthy.

[wist43]

Like I said, this collapse is entirely on the coaching staff...

We have to give them credit for having us in position to win the game, but in that instance I give more of the credit to the players - but that collapse was just breathtaking, and that is entirely on MM and dunderdummy.

MM has definitely earned the title of choker.

[Packman_26]

Like I said, this collapse is entirely on the coaching staff...

We have to give them credit for having us in position to win the game, but in that instance I give more of the credit to the players - but that collapse was just breathtaking, and that is entirely on MM and dunderdummy.

MM has definitely earned the title of choker.
This is just amazing. We only give McCarthy and Capers a little dab of credit for the good and 100% of the bad. What exactly should they have done differently when the balls hits Bostick in the damn head? Or on the play that Pepper and Burnett decide that 6 more points aren't necessary? Did Clinton-Dix think Capers was going to throw his toupée at the ball and break up the 2 point conversion?
McCarthy is a choker? He only has the 15th best winning percentage of any coach in NFL history (.003 behind Belichick). He's #39 all time in playoff winning percentage (.004 behind Holmgren) and a better playoff winning percentage than Don Shula, Mike Ditka, Paul Brown, and Tony Dungy.
I'm sure just about all of us live and die with the Packers, so I differently get the frustration you have because I have it too. But I just don't see any logic in this.

[Packman_26]

I think the playcalling was worse than Rodgers' play, by far. As far as the interception, offsides is reviewable. So, that, again, falls on McCarthy.
I don't ever remember seeing an offside call being reviewed and I can't find anything online that states it is reviewable. If I'm wrong on this please give an example or a link that states otherwise because I'm at a loss.

[Pugger]

He didn't have a great game for sure and the calf injury was a big factor. I was upset when he threw the first pick to Sherman....the guy is really freaking good....he should have waited to attack until he was playing with one arm. Everyone saw how bad it was when he went to run for the first down. Is he due some criticism? Sure...why not.

If you look at replays of that first INT Rodgers said he threw it up because Bennett was offsides but didn't get flagged for it.

[Pugger]

I'm sure the wind and rain hurt this week, but Rodgers timing and accuracy have been off the last three games. I'm fairly certain the calf has been a major factor in that.

I too think Rodgers' injury was more severe than anyone at 1265 was letting on. Activating Tolzien the past couple of games was telling IMO.

[Pugger]

I don't ever remember seeing an offside call being reviewed and I can't find anything online that states it is reviewable. If I'm wrong on this please give an example or a link that states otherwise because I'm at a loss.

I checked online just now and I can't find an example where offsides is a reveiwable play.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Offsides is NOT reviewable.

[Patler]

I for one don't think we should give AR a free pass, injury or not. He is a highly paid professional, and needs to perform better, injury or not. If he doesn't, he should pay us all. Only then does he get a pass.

FREE pass??? Baloney!!


I can't tell if your serious.


Hi Woodbuck.

You can't? Note my reference to "free", the fact he is "highly paid", my call for him to "pay" us before we grant any pass and my final emphasis of the term "free" in the phrase "free pass". I thought it would be obvious I was kidding!

I'm sorry if I confused you!

[woodbuck27]

Hi Woodbuck.

You can't? Note my reference to "free", the fact he is "highly paid", my call for him to "pay" us before we grant any pass and my final emphasis of the term "free" in the phrase "free pass". I thought it would be obvious I was kidding!

I'm sorry if I confused you!

I'll try to be 'not confusing':

Aaron Rodgers was way off his normal style of play and his performance was far removed from what anyone should hope for from the NFL's MVP. He played lights out great Vs Dallas. Where was any semblance of a carry over?

The fact he received the best care and treatment in the week after the Dallas win should have enabled a far superior performance than we witnessed last Sunday in Seattle.

Aaron Rodgers play was a let down of considerable proportion and contributing clearly to the loss of the NFC Championship. I picked Seattle to win that game but I never imagined that Aaron Rodgers could look that bad.

He had little fire until his team fell into the hole. Today I'll watch the game for the third time. I don't believe I'll see much to explain 'his fail' in that game.

[mraynrand]

I'll try to be 'not confusing.'

promise?

[yetisnowman]

In the Divisional final Vs Dallas Aaron Rodgers numbers were:

24 of 35 (68.6%) For 316 yards and 3 TD and 0 Picks. His QBR was 125.42

All that sure looked encouraging.


In the NFC Championship his numbers:

19 of 34 (55.8%) For 178 yards and 1 TD and 2 Picks. his QBR was 55.76


He was one more week removed from his original calf injury date. He was given comprehensive treatment and afforded every positive measure for more recovery than we observed Vs Dallas.


Members here want to blame his very poor performance on the wind. His QBR fell of almost 70 Points. It was about 55 Points below his avg. QBR for the season.

What really was going on?

It was a lot more than the calf and the wind that threw him off his game folks.

We may never really know what it really was but damn Aaron Rodgers played poorly in the game vs Seattle.

I would love it if that man could be open and honest. To inform us of the TRUTH.

Do I blame him for the loss. He was just another part of that loss. Except 'he' didn't seem to be having a lot of fun.

Here at Packerrats we have or nearly have anointed Aaron Rodgers as the GREATEST QB in NFL History.

So the way he played on Sunday ...to play so much worse than he did Vs Dallas. Now in a huge game pass the ball as poorly as he did and not help more to bury Seattle in that game. I'm simply blown away by what I saw and terribly disappointed as that game was going and flipped the other way.

Give Aaron Rodgers a FREE PASS?

Are you kidding me. This whole thing really really stinks !

This is where the injury excuse immediately loses traction. He had better, more efficient games when his calf was worse. Yes of course his mobility would have come in handy, but come on the guy missed a bunch of throws.
Some he made some he didn't, the ones he didn't were costly. The pick was a really poor throw. Was late and to the inside, essentially making it a jump ball between an all pro and a rookie receiver. Also a play few are talking about, when seattle jumped off early, jordy had is man beat deep and inside and a rod again threw late and short and it was broken up. Should have been a TD or at least a big gain. A lot of his slants were short and the screen passes were sloppy. He choked.....period. The points left on the field were just too much. The defense created 5 turnovers and held a shutout til the 3rd quarter. Wilson with his worst career game as a pro.
Bostick, fake fg, play calling, all that doesn't matter if a rod and the offense is just average. He deserves ample blame.

[pbmax]

Its almost as if something beside injury and talent stands in the way of an offensive player excelling in a given football game. If only we could put our finger on it.

[mraynrand]

Its almost as if something beside injury and talent stands in the way of an offensive player excelling in a given football game. If only we could put our finger on it.

one possibility:
http://www.benfranklinrx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Defense-sign.jpg

[ThunderDan]

This is where the injury excuse immediately loses traction. He had better, more efficient games when his calf was worse. Yes of course his mobility would have come in handy, but come on the guy missed a bunch of throws.
Some he made some he didn't, the ones he didn't were costly. The pick was a really poor throw. Was late and to the inside, essentially making it a jump ball between an all pro and a rookie receiver. Also a play few are talking about, when seattle jumped off early, jordy had is man beat deep and inside and a rod again threw late and short and it was broken up. Should have been a TD or at least a big gain. A lot of his slants were short and the screen passes were sloppy. He choked.....period. The points left on the field were just too much. The defense created 5 turnovers and held a shutout til the 3rd quarter. Wilson with his worst career game as a pro.
Bostick, fake fg, play calling, all that doesn't matter if a rod and the offense is just average. He deserves ample blame.

Please tell when ARod learned to be a choker between the 2010 Super Bowl Run and the Conference Championship game this year?

[yetisnowman]

Please tell when ARod learned to be a choker between the 2010 Super Bowl Run and the Conference Championship game this year?

Maybe you can elaborate on what you are asking exactly.....Since the super bowl run his clutchness and efficiency in playoff games has sorely been lacking. He was average against San Fran last year, we lose by 3. He was way below average in Seattle, we lose in OT. If he plays anywhere near the elite level we win both of those games. The game last weekend we win handedly. He missed easy throws, missed deep throws, and was pedestrian all game.

[mraynrand]

Maybe you can elaborate on what you are asking exactly.....Since the super bowl run his clutchness and efficiency in playoff games has sorely been lacking. He was average against San Fran last year, we lose by 3. He was way below average in Seattle, we lose in OT. If he plays anywhere near the elite level we win both of those games. The game last weekend we win handedly. He missed easy throws, missed deep throws, and was pedestrian all game.

where does Arod's average come from?

[yetisnowman]

where does Arod's average come from?

My eyeballs? The laws of mathematics? What do you mean? He didn't have a good game , 170 yds passing 1 TD, two picks ,55% completions and he didn't capitalize on 4 first half turnovers from the opposing team to put the game away. In what way did have an average or an above average game? Seattle was beatable, their defense was beatable. His throws were late and off target and his decision making was bad. What other metrics should I use?

[denverYooper]

Yes, let's get rid of Rodgers. He's nothing but a problem. And with the money we'd save we could buy a real gamechanger like Rex Grossman.

[yetisnowman]

Yes, let's get rid of Rodgers. He's nothing but a problem. And with the money we'd save we could buy a real gamechanger like Rex Grossman.

No one said that. I'm noticing a ton of guys on this board that blindly apologize for the dude when he doesn't step up in clutch situations. I'll say it again, if he has an average game Sunday we are comfortably cruising to the super bowl. Truth hurts. If you didnt see An offense that couldn't get out of its own way Sunday, I don't know what to tell you.

[woodbuck27]

My eyeballs? The laws of mathematics? What do you mean? He didn't have a good game , 170 yds passing 1 TD, two picks ,55% completions and he didn't capitalize on 4 first half turnovers from the opposing team to put the game away. In what way did have an average or an above average game? Seattle was beatable, their defense was beatable. His throws were late and off target and his decision making was bad. What other metrics should I use?

:knll:

It's really as Mike McCarthy might say:

'Fun' to observe.

The Packer Homers here. They have no simple dignity. They'll come up with any number of lame lame excuses for something that's too obvious in their face clear. The responses are over the top hilarious.

I'm certain that certain members of this board put on their stupid hats on the week of an important Packer play off game. Toss another one on top of that when the Packers collapse and lose that game.

Like a bunch a school boys. Yet not exhausting rather incredibly hilarious.

Every year since the last Super Bowl win...it's the same here. "Well .... we won the NFCN !"

That's NOT good enough Homers !

I don't mean to pile on. You've got them now.

Their too easy to handle until you realize what 'Homerism' really does to them.

[Noodle]

No one said that. I'm noticing a ton of guys on this board that blindly apologize for the dude when he doesn't step up in clutch situations. I'll say it again, if he has an average game Sunday we are comfortably cruising to the super bowl. Truth hurts. If you didnt see An offense that couldn't get out of its own way Sunday, I don't know what to tell you.

There's something to this. For example, why do we assume the pick on the throw to Cobb was Cobb's fault; maybe it was A-Rod who misread the coverage or threw the wrong route.

A lot of us did this with Favre -- no pick was his fault, it was usually the receiver's fault for running the wrong route or not selling out to make the catch. Until he went to the Jets/Vikes.

Playing QB in that stadium must suck balls, but there's no way an objective fan (oxymoron, I know) can say that A-Rod had a good game Sunday.

[mraynrand]

My eyeballs? The laws of mathematics? What do you mean? He didn't have a good game , 170 yds passing 1 TD, two picks ,55% completions and he didn't capitalize on 4 first half turnovers from the opposing team to put the game away. In what way did have an average or an above average game? Seattle was beatable, their defense was beatable. His throws were late and off target and his decision making was bad. What other metrics should I use?

You say he was below average in performance, but his 'average' is collected against all the teams he plays, including a lot of tragically terrible defenses which yield hundreds of yards, offer no pass rush, and have porous secondaries. His average is kept lower by teams with fierce pass rushes, and great secondaries, for example. Not to mention the limitations of his injury. So, if Rodgers plays exactly the same, you would EXPECT much worse results against a team that has been #1 in defense the past two years running (#1 in yards allowed points allowed, and passing yards allowed) than against teams with awful defenses. This isn't a secret. Rodgers didn't have a 'bad game' so much as he played against the best defense.

[mraynrand]

There's something to this. For example, why do we assume the pick on the throw to Cobb was Cobb's fault; maybe it was A-Rod who misread the coverage or threw the wrong route.

A lot of us did this with Favre -- no pick was his fault, it was usually the receiver's fault for running the wrong route or not selling out to make the catch. Until he went to the Jets/Vikes.

Playing QB in that stadium must suck balls, but there's no way an objective fan (oxymoron, I know) can say that A-Rod had a good game Sunday.

Cobb admitted it was his fault and was summarily flogged

[yetisnowman]

You say he was below average in performance, but his 'average' is collected against all the teams he plays, including a lot of tragically terrible defenses which yield hundreds of yards, offer no pass rush, and have porous secondaries. His average is kept lower by teams with fierce pass rushes, and great secondaries, for example. Not to mention the limitations of his injury. So, if Rodgers plays exactly the same, you would EXPECT much worse results against a team that has been #1 in defense the past two years running (#1 in yards allowed points allowed, and passing yards allowed) than against teams with awful defenses. This isn't a secret. Rodgers didn't have a 'bad game' so much as he played against the best defense.

Utter nonsense. I watched the game. He had a bad game. Good qbs make it happen against tight coverage. The pass rush was not an issue , the o line was spectacular.So the defense , that barely pressured him, caused him to be inaccurate and sloppy, gotcha. Homerism up in this place. Anybody nationally would agree he underperformed

[Rutnstrut]

:knll:

It's really as Mike McCarthy might say:

'Fun' to observe.

The Packer Homers here. They have no simple dignity. They'll come up with any number of lame lame excuses for something that's too obvious in their face clear. The responses are over the top hilarious.

I'm certain that certain members of this board put on their stupid hats on the week of an important Packer play off game. Toss another one on top of that when the Packers collapse and lose that game.

Like a bunch a school boys. Yet not exhausting rather incredibly hilarious.

Every year since the last Super Bowl win...it's the same here. "Well .... we won the NFCN !"

That's NOT good enough Homers !

I don't mean to pile on. You've got them now.

Their too easy to handle until you realize what 'Homerism' really does to them.



Great post woodbuck, but it will be misconstrued by most here. It's really not their fault, the Packer tinted glasses and kool aid do that to them.

[ThunderDan]

Great post woodbuck, but it will be misconstrued by most here. It's really not their fault, the Packer tinted glasses and kool aid do that to them.

So now we have two theories out there:
1. TT is wasting ARod's window by not bringing in enough talent to have us win it all. Sign every FA available.
2. ARod isn't clutch in important games any more and choked.

Which is it?

[ThunderDan]

Maybe you can elaborate on what you are asking exactly.....Since the super bowl run his clutchness and efficiency in playoff games has sorely been lacking. He was average against San Fran last year, we lose by 3. He was way below average in Seattle, we lose in OT. If he plays anywhere near the elite level we win both of those games. The game last weekend we win handedly. He missed easy throws, missed deep throws, and was pedestrian all game.

Was Roger's clutch in the DET game? Was Roger's clutch in the DAL game?

I agree that ARod didn't play as well as I would have liked in the SEA game. But even then with the whole team collapsing, when ARod had the ball in his hands he drove us to a FG to tie the game in the last minute of regulation.

[Bossman641]

I'm not even sure what the argument is here. Nobody has claimed Rodgers had a good game. I'd say most every agreed he had a below average to average game. On the list of problem areas going forward, he is probably at the bottom of the list though.

[mraynrand]

Utter nonsense. I watched the game. He had a bad game. Good qbs make it happen against tight coverage. The pass rush was not an issue , the o line was spectacular.So the defense , that barely pressured him, caused him to be inaccurate and sloppy, gotcha. Homerism up in this place. Anybody nationally would agree he underperformed

It's not just pressure, it's coverage. And if you've watched Seattle at all other than against the Packers, you'd see them shut down very good passing teams (like the 55 TD broncos last year - did you see that one? Did Manning have a 'bad game'?) And, if you've been watching, since the injury, Rodgers hasn't been throwing quite as well. Nor has he been running much - both of which are essential to his game. So, as I said before, it's not just the defense, but the defense and the injury. Did he otherwise have a sub par game? Hard to say, but I did see him miss a few receivers he could have hit. Probably, but I don't know.

[mraynrand]

I'm not even sure what the argument is here. Nobody has claimed Rodgers had a good game. I'd say most every agreed he had a below average to average game. On the list of problem areas going forward, he is probably at the bottom of the list though.

the argument is whether the results from the QB position were due to intrinsic bad play by Rodgers (bad preparation, nerves, too much Olivia, etc.) or whether they were due to defense and injury. I say the latter were far more significant, and I offer the performance of other great QBs against Seattle over the past two years as my evidence.

[wist43]

This is just amazing. We only give McCarthy and Capers a little dab of credit for the good and 100% of the bad. What exactly should they have done differently when the balls hits Bostick in the damn head? Or on the play that Pepper and Burnett decide that 6 more points aren't necessary? Did Clinton-Dix think Capers was going to throw his toupée at the ball and break up the 2 point conversion?
McCarthy is a choker? He only has the 15th best winning percentage of any coach in NFL history (.003 behind Belichick). He's #39 all time in playoff winning percentage (.004 behind Holmgren) and a better playoff winning percentage than Don Shula, Mike Ditka, Paul Brown, and Tony Dungy.
I'm sure just about all of us live and die with the Packers, so I differently get the frustration you have because I have it too. But I just don't see any logic in this.

Yes, McCarthy is a choker - he's proven that more times than not. He's proven exactly 1 time that he could get it done, he's failed every other time.

And this particular fail was epic. He, and dunderdummy, essentially tried to run out the hourglass from the 5:00 minute mark on - that's not playing to win, that's hoping the other team doesn't do enough to win. It's the difference between being proactive and being passive. Passive will get you beat every time.

Did some of the players make stupid plays?? Yes they did... but that flows from the Head Coach on down. If the Head Coach is going to stick his head in the sand, what choice do the players have but to join him?? It puts everyone on their back foot, it introduces doubt and hope, as opposed to aggression and taking hope away from you opponent.

Sun tsu... in the end, responsibility always falls to the General.

[woodbuck27]

Yes, McCarthy is a choker - he's proven that more times than not. He's proven exactly 1 time that he could get it done, he's failed every other time.

And this particular fail was epic. He, and dunderdummy, essentially tried to run out the hourglass from the 5:00 minute mark on - that's not playing to win, that's hoping the other team doesn't do enough to win. It's the difference between being proactive and being passive. Passive will get you beat every time.

Did some of the players make stupid plays?? Yes they did... but that flows from the Head Coach on down. If the Head Coach is going to stick his head in the sand, what choice do the players have but to join him?? It puts everyone on their back foot, it introduces doubt and hope, as opposed to aggression and taking hope away from you opponent.

Sun tsu... in the end, responsibility always falls to the General.

Ironically in the Green Bay Packer culture and after this last disappointing playoff loss '; and ' after the dust settles ' this:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11816388/mike-mccarthy-signs-multiyear-contract-extension-green-bay-packers

Packer Nation gets Mike McCarthy for 'likely' another four seasons.

Mike McCarthy gets to pound his chest for more NFCN Titles. Has some fun losing in the playoffs.

Rah ! Rah !! Rah !!! All is good.

[wist43]

Ironically in the Green Bay Packer culture and after this last disappointing playoff loss '; and ' after the dust settles ' this:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11816388/mike-mccarthy-signs-multiyear-contract-extension-green-bay-packers

Packer Nation gets Mike McCarthy for 'likely' another four seasons.

Mike McCarthy gets to pound his chest for more NFCN Titles. Has some fun losing in the playoffs.

Rah ! Rah !! Rah !!! All is good.

I don't want to fire MM, I keep hoping he'll the lesson... but to date, he hasn't.

I do want to fire dunderdummy of course... he is utterly hopeless. That 3rd and 21?? I knew it was coming, b/c I know dunderdummy - he'll do that every stinking time. It's a fine way to let a team off the hook, give them hope, and get you beat.

[pbmax]

Yes, McCarthy is a choker - he's proven that more times than not. He's proven exactly 1 time that he could get it done, he's failed every other time.


Technically, that would be 3 games, so 3 times in 2010 if we are just counting playoffs and not season end clinching victories in the Division.

[yetisnowman]

It's not just pressure, it's coverage. And if you've watched Seattle at all other than against the Packers, you'd see them shut down very good passing teams (like the 55 TD broncos last year - did you see that one? Did Manning have a 'bad game'?) And, if you've been watching, since the injury, Rodgers hasn't been throwing quite as well. Nor has he been running much - both of which are essential to his game. So, as I said before, it's not just the defense, but the defense and the injury. Did he otherwise have a sub par game? Hard to say, but I did see him miss a few receivers he could have hit. Probably, but I don't know.

Yes manning had a bad game, I would venture to say he had a terrible game. I would throw an even harsher criticism towards Peyton , he is a regular playoff bed wetter . A rod is supposed to be better than Shaun hill, Sanchez, cam, kaepernick though. He is a great regular season qb, and he had one sick super bowl run. But if his lackluster performances in playoff games aren't at least on your mind moving forward as somewhat of a concern, ,I think there is some denial there. When I look at that game I see a wounded animal in Seattle that was begging be put down. The offensive execution failed us, we should have been up by 30 at half. All the other nonsense in the last 5 minutes is irrelevant if the offense does their job, that falls on the coaching of course but it falls heavier on the qb in this situation.

[woodbuck27]

It was so much like the fight game. I mean the way it seemed watching this stranger than just weird game.

I couldn't be but it sure looked like this:

Just before game time Aaron Rodgers was informed:

"Sorry Aaron but the word just came down from above...and we're throwing this one.

They want Seattle in to try to repeat Vs New England." Fiction

[Pugger]

The reason why I'm giving AR a pass on this last game is he wasn't 100%. His mobility and throwing on the run is a big part of his game and what makes him the most dangerous QB in the league to defend. But he couldn't do any of that since the Tampa game. If Rodgers was his normal self on Sunday we win that game and are preparing for NE in the desert.

[Patler]

This is where the injury excuse immediately loses traction. He had better, more efficient games when his calf was worse. Yes of course his mobility would have come in handy, but come on the guy missed a bunch of throws.
Some he made some he didn't, the ones he didn't were costly. The pick was a really poor throw. Was late and to the inside, essentially making it a jump ball between an all pro and a rookie receiver. Also a play few are talking about, when seattle jumped off early, jordy had is man beat deep and inside and a rod again threw late and short and it was broken up. Should have been a TD or at least a big gain. A lot of his slants were short and the screen passes were sloppy. He choked.....period. The points left on the field were just too much. The defense created 5 turnovers and held a shutout til the 3rd quarter. Wilson with his worst career game as a pro.
Bostick, fake fg, play calling, all that doesn't matter if a rod and the offense is just average. He deserves ample blame.

Your second sentence negates your entire argument. You have absolutely no way of knowing when his calf was better or worse. In the days leading up to the Seattle game, some reported Packer comments that it was maybe a little better, some that it was no better, and some that it was a little worse. One Dr. who was interviewed said the injury needs almost total rest in order to really heal, and any aggressive use can cause a set back. He said he would expect it to be no better and probably a little worse against Seattle because Rodgers had basically two weeks of rest before Dallas, almost certainly set himself back because of playing the game, and then had only one week of rest before the Seattle game.

Rodgers was not that much better against Dallas, but his results were better. His accuracy has been lacking in all games since the injury. Even against Dallas, his throws were often late and a bit off target. However, many were still completed because Dallas' secondary is now where near as good as Seattles' and their DBs were not there to contest the poorer throws as much. Against better defensive coverage, you can't get away with poor timing and off target throws, against worse coverage you often can.

[denverYooper]

Your second sentence negates your entire argument. You have absolutely no way of knowing when his calf was better or worse. In the days leading up to the Seattle game, some reported Packer comments that it was maybe a little better, some that it was no better, and some that it was a little worse. One Dr. who was interviewed said the injury needs almost total rest in order to really heal, and any aggressive use can cause a set back. He said he would expect it to be no better and probably a little worse against Seattle because Rodgers had basically two weeks of rest before Dallas, almost certainly set himself back because of playing the game, and then had only one week of rest before the Seattle game.

Rodgers was not that much better against Dallas, but his results were better. His accuracy has been lacking in all games since the injury. Even against Dallas, his throws were often late and a bit off target. However, many were still completed because Dallas' secondary is now where near as good as Seattles' and their DBs were not there to contest the poorer throws as much. Against better defensive coverage, you can't get away with poor timing and off target throws, against worse coverage you often can.

See Peyton Manning last year.

Seattle's game on the backend thrives not on interceptions but on immediately harassing the receivers. If the QB's accuracy is off even a bit and is not leading his receivers away from coverage and making tight throws, they're immediately pasting the receiver. If the QB floats his throws even a little, the balls are contested and often batted away. Rodgers, while still very good at finding open receivers, did not have his usual drive on the ball. The team was the reason the Packers almost won this game... particularly the OL and the defense... but if Rodgers is healthy the Packers probably score 35 points.

I was disappointed that Lacy was not more successful in the passing game... on the failed screen and the miscommunication, he had a lot of grass in front of him. I thought Jordy had a poor game for him also. He had the ball in the endzone that Rodgers deserves some blame for but that he usually goes after and he had another drop on a first down play that hurt.

[wist43]

Wrong thread, lol... sorry

[woodbuck27]

The reason why I'm giving AR a pass on this last game is he wasn't 100%. His mobility and throwing on the run is a big part of his game and what makes him the most dangerous QB in the league to defend. But he couldn't do any of that since the Tampa game. If Rodgers was his normal self on Sunday we win that game and are preparing for NE in the desert.

Was what we saw in Aaron Rodgers play Vs Dallas an illusion? No ... Aaron Rodgers was outstanding Vs Dallas.

As fans we should have expected more from the NFL MVP vs Seattle. Is that trophy tarnished with that Seattle defeat? Did his poor play emphasize just how valuable decent play is for any chance of a Green Bay Packer win?

Suddenly it's the calf injury as an excuse. Some want to make it about conditions such as wind.

I saw a QB that didn't have enough 'FIRE" in him to ensure he was all there to get the job done.

Is this where his legacy will be defined? A QB that simply can't do it in the clutch. Wasn't that a criticism of Brett Favre!? Will the same stand as a description of Aaron Rodgers?

A deemed 'Greatest QB in NFL History'... That QB didn't exist in Seattle; until his last efforts in regulation to get in position for the game tieing FG he seemed far too casual to me.

Aaron Rodgers was a big reason for the worst 2nd half flop for any NFC team in history.

** He can blame officiating on his first pick but he threw that pick.

** Aaron Rodgers may be clearly justified in any annoyance in terms of play calling. Aaron Rodgers is stuck with Mike McCarthy.

[mraynrand]

Yes manning had a bad game, I would venture to say he had a terrible game. I would throw an even harsher criticism towards Peyton , he is a regular playoff bed wetter . A rod is supposed to be better than Shaun hill, Sanchez, cam, kaepernick though. He is a great regular season qb, and he had one sick super bowl run. But if his lackluster performances in playoff games aren't at least on your mind moving forward as somewhat of a concern, ,I think there is some denial there. When I look at that game I see a wounded animal in Seattle that was begging be put down. The offensive execution failed us, we should have been up by 30 at half. All the other nonsense in the last 5 minutes is irrelevant if the offense does their job, that falls on the coaching of course but it falls heavier on the qb in this situation.

This seems nonsensical to me. Rodgers didn't cause Nelson to stumble out of his break, and he didn't call the running plays at the goal line. You have a lot to complain about, but I will just say that I disagree with you about the main reasons for a less than average performance by Rodgers. Again, my evidence is the performance of other good/great QBs against Seattle, and Rodgers' injuries.

[Pugger]

There's something to this. For example, why do we assume the pick on the throw to Cobb was Cobb's fault; maybe it was A-Rod who misread the coverage or threw the wrong route.

A lot of us did this with Favre -- no pick was his fault, it was usually the receiver's fault for running the wrong route or not selling out to make the catch. Until he went to the Jets/Vikes.

Playing QB in that stadium must suck balls, but there's no way an objective fan (oxymoron, I know) can say that A-Rod had a good game Sunday.

I thought I heard Cobb later admitted he ran the wrong route on that INT? The first pick was Aaron's fault because he threw it late. Unfortunately the zebras didn't notice Bennett was offsides on the play and why Rodgers threw it in the first place. Rodgers isn't infallible but I'm not going to throw him under the bus. I suspect had he been 100% our offense doesn't sputter.

[mraynrand]

Aaron Rodgers was outstanding Vs Dallas.

not really. He had a couple of stretches of pretty good play, with some ragged play in the middle.

[mraynrand]

I thought I heard Cobb later admitted he ran the wrong route on that INT?

I think that's right. But Rodgers also missed Cobb later, for what might have broken into a long gain or TD. Too bad. Rodgers did not have great game, and some of it was his fault. How much of that was due to injury is unknowable.

[Pugger]

You say he was below average in performance, but his 'average' is collected against all the teams he plays, including a lot of tragically terrible defenses which yield hundreds of yards, offer no pass rush, and have porous secondaries. His average is kept lower by teams with fierce pass rushes, and great secondaries, for example. Not to mention the limitations of his injury. So, if Rodgers plays exactly the same, you would EXPECT much worse results against a team that has been #1 in defense the past two years running (#1 in yards allowed points allowed, and passing yards allowed) than against teams with awful defenses. This isn't a secret. Rodgers didn't have a 'bad game' so much as he played against the best defense.

I can only think of one game in his career that he's had a truly bad game and that was the Buffalo game several weeks ago. Otherwise he's been very good since he became our starter.

[Pugger]

Was what we saw in Aaron Rodgers play Vs Dallas an illusion? No ... Aaron Rodgers was outstanding Vs Dallas.

As fans we should have expected more from the NFL MVP vs Seattle. Is that trophy tarnished with that Seattle defeat? Did his poor play emphasize just how valuable decent play is for any chance of a Green Bay Packer win?

Suddenly it's the calf injury as an excuse. Some want to make it about conditions such as wind.

I saw a QB that didn't have enough 'FIRE" in him to ensure he was all there to get the job done.

Is this where his legacy will be defined? A QB that simply can't do it in the clutch. Wasn't that a criticism of Brett Favre!? Will the same stand as a description of Aaron Rodgers?

A deemed 'Greatest QB in NFL History'... That QB didn't exist in Seattle; until his last efforts in regulation to get in position for the game tieing FG he seemed far too casual to me.

Aaron Rodgers was a big reason for the worst 2nd half flop for any NFC team in history.

** He can blame officiating on his first pick but he threw that pick.

** Aaron Rodgers may be clearly justified in any annoyance in terms of play calling. Aaron Rodgers is stuck with Mike McCarthy.

How can anyone observing watching on television tell if Rodgers didn't have enough "fire" inside him to get the job done? I'm with mraynrand. I suspect his injury and playing the best defense in the league contributed to his sub par play in Seattle.

[Pugger]

not really. He had a couple of stretches of pretty good play, with some ragged play in the middle.

Yes, against Dallas in the first half of the game Rodgers didn't play up to his usual standards.

[woodbuck27]

How can anyone observing watching on television tell if Rodgers didn't have enough "fire" inside him to get the job done? I'm with mraynrand. I suspect his injury and playing the best defense in the league contributed to his sub par play in Seattle.

I can observe Aaron Rodgers as he was in that game. I can measure from an observable standpoint and compare his performance based in other games that I've watched 'LIVE" and over again in recordings countless times.

I've watched it now three times. I'll watch it again and again and I'll not see anything different.

Aaron Rodgers had 'no Fire in him' in that game. Aaron Rodgers had excellent protection for by far the most part in that game to make plays and his QBR describes 'in part' just how off he was.

I have experience as a Leader...a Coach... a competitive athlete .... a Teacher...a Supervisor.

I can see without prejudice. I can report what I see.

[Pugger]

I can observe Aaron Rodgers as he was in that game. I can measure from an observable standpoint and compare his performance based in other games that I've watched 'LIVE" and over again in recordings countless times.

I've watched it now three times. I'll watch it again and again and I'll not see anything different.

Aaron Rodgers had 'no Fire in him' in that game. Aaron Rodgers had excellent protection for by far the most part in that game to make plays and his QBR describes 'in part' just how off he was.

I have experience as a Leader...a Coach... a competitive athlete .... a Teacher...a Supervisor.

I can see without prejudice. I can report what I see.

I've been in competitive situations where I had the fire but I was off my game. Some days you can't miss and on others you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Smidgeon]

How can anyone observing watching on television tell if Rodgers didn't have enough "fire" inside him to get the job done? I'm with mraynrand. I suspect his injury and playing the best defense in the league contributed to his sub par play in Seattle.

Don't fret too much. This is woody's tired old cliche. Rodgers didn't have a perfect game? Not enough fire. Obviously.

[mraynrand]

I can observe Aaron Rodgers as he was in that game. I can measure from an observable standpoint and compare his performance based in other games that I've watched 'LIVE" and over again in recordings countless times.

I've watched it now three times. I'll watch it again and again and I'll not see anything different.

Aaron Rodgers had 'no Fire in him' in that game. Aaron Rodgers had excellent protection for by far the most part in that game to make plays and his QBR describes 'in part' just how off he was.

I have experience as a Leader...a Coach... a competitive athlete .... a Teacher...a Supervisor.

I can see without prejudice. I can report what I see.

and you can be wrong. again.

[Joemailman]

I've watched it now three times. I'll watch it again and again and I'll not see anything different.

Replays do tend to have a certain sameness to them.

[Bossman641]

Rodgers looked pretty pumped up after throwing the TD to Cobb.

Ask yourself this WB, was Rodgers not playing well because he didn't have enough fire? Or was he not fiery because he didn't have much to get excited about?

[Smidgeon]

Rodgers looked pretty pumped up after throwing the TD to Cobb.

Ask yourself this WB, was Rodgers not playing well because he didn't have enough fire? Or was he not fiery because he didn't have much to get excited about?

Or is "playing with fire" entirely unidentifiable from a viewer's perspective?

[woodbuck27]

Rodgers looked pretty pumped up after throwing the TD to Cobb.

Ask yourself this WB, was Rodgers not playing well because he didn't have enough fire? Or was he not fiery because he didn't have much to get excited about?

His reaction after that TD pass was all Aaron Rodgers.

Andrew Quarless 'got the look' when he dropped that perfect pass 'right' to his numbers for a critical 3rd down play for naught.

Irregardless of the fact that he only threw for one TD I looked for more emotion from him.

[mraynrand]

Or is "playing with fire" entirely unidentifiable from a viewer's perspective?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QlBTOAqHhk

[mraynrand]

I looked for more emotion from him.

Works for the Jaguars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R5WU0pLNI8

[yetisnowman]

[QUOTE=mraynrand;825520]This seems nonsensical to me. Rodgers didn't cause Nelson to stumble out of his break, and he didn't call the running plays at the goal line. You have a lot to complain about, but I will just say that I disagree with you about the main reasons for a less than average performance by Rodgers. Again, my evidence is the performance of other good/great QBs against Seattle, and Rodgers' injuries.[/QUOT

What's nonsensical to me is that the A-rod apology camp talks about the game as though my eyeballs deceived me. He missed a td to jordy on the goal line. He missed him deep(likely a td) on a free play. And he threw a dumb pick to Sherman, and I dont care if he "thought" it was a penalty. If you throw a jump ball you better make sure its a free play and you physically saw the yellow flag. All inaccurate throws. And that is just the first quarter. If you want to argue that a leg injury makes him sporadically accurate, then i cant disprove that i guess. I still think it is silly and a cop out. the guy did not have a good game and Seattle was begging to be beat. Again you had a opposing qb having the worst game of his life, and you couldn't outplay him.

[mraynrand]

What's nonsensical to me is that the A-rod apology camp talks about the game as though my eyeballs deceived me.

actually, no one is trying to deceive you or make apologies for Rodgers. There was poor production from the QB position. The QB rating was low for a reason - 1 TD, 2INTs, less than 200 yards. That's not good. So now that we've (hopefully) dispensed with these straw men, if you'd like I can repeat what I think were the main reasons for poor QB productivity (I won't elaborate - that's all above):

1) The defense
2) The injury
3) ? Nerves, weakness of character, too much Olivia, intestinal gas, other.


1 and 2 should be unarguable. If you want to propose other causes, feel free, but I'm not going to answer unless they have some good argument/evidence behind them. For example, The miss to Jordy on the short end zone pass resulted from a stumble out of his break, possibly due to some PI. I argue it's not Rodger's fault. The miss on the free play to Nelson was due to 1) good coverage by the defense limiting where the ball could be thrown and 2) poor pass due to (2) or (3) above - you tell me. The INT to Adams seemed like bad judgment, but it may have just been a bad throw.

It seems to me what you're looking for is someone to say emotively that Rodgers sucks - or sucked in the game, and to a certain extent, he did. But further, I think you want to blame some mystical, unknowable force from category (3) above. If so, go for it, enjoy, knock yourself out, it's fun! :)

[yetisnowman]

actually, no one is trying to deceive you or make apologies for Rodgers. There was poor production from the QB position. The QB rating was low for a reason - 1 TD, 2INTs, less than 200 yards. That's not good. So now that we've (hopefully) dispensed with these straw men, if you'd like I can repeat what I think were the main reasons for poor QB productivity (I won't elaborate - that's all above):

1) The defense
2) The injury
3) ? Nerves, weakness of character, too much Olivia, intestinal gas, other.


1 and 2 should be unarguable. If you want to propose other causes, feel free, but I'm not going to answer unless they have some good argument/evidence behind them. For example, The miss to Jordy on the short end zone pass resulted from a stumble out of his break, possibly due to some PI. I argue it's not Rodger's fault. The miss on the free play to Nelson was due to 1) good coverage by the defense limiting where the ball could be thrown and 2) poor pass due to (2) or (3) above - you tell me. The INT to Adams seemed like bad judgment, but it may have just been a bad throw.

It seems to me what you're looking for is someone to say emotively that Rodgers sucks - or sucked in the game, and to a certain extent, he did. But further, I think you want to blame some mystical, unknowable force from category (3) above. If so, go for it, enjoy, knock yourself out, it's fun! :)

Fair enough....no i don't think A-rod sucks nor do I want someone to say that he does. He is my favorite player in the NFL to watch on my favorite team. That being said I just don't believe that his injury or the defense caused his inaccuracy and poor performance, they may have been some contributing factors but I saw a lot of plays and throws left on the field. I didn't see a suffocating pass defense in which no one could get open. I saw a good pass defense that was on its heels and an o line that gave an MVP quarterback time to find those holes. He wasn't accurate and he didn't make good decisions. PERIOD.
I guess what I want is for people to stop letting their fandom get in the way of logical criticism. Rodgers is mediocre at best in the playoffs. There i said it. Yeah they are good defenses but guess what? that's who you face in the playoffs. And that's not going to change. I want people to acknowledge that the poor quarterback play is a big part of why we have come up short in the playoffs since the super bowl run. The elephant in the room is that we have a hall of fame quarterback that underperforms in the clutch. He had a great opportunity last week to put his stamp on a game that was begging for him to do it. You can say it was his calf, but I have seen to many other examples of him crumbling in big games, under adverse conditions, to buy that.

[mraynrand]

He wasn't accurate and he didn't make good decisions. PERIOD.

I take it you don't want a response. :)

[yetisnowman]

I take it you don't want a response. :)

By all means go ahead.....

I am surprised since joining this forum, at just how many people are not willing to put appropriate blame on Rodgers in general. I assumed it was a fringe-ish kind of thing, but apparently it is a vast majority.

[mraynrand]

By all means go ahead.....

I am surprised since joining this forum, at just how many people are not willing to put appropriate blame on Rodgers in general. I assumed it was a fringe-ish kind of thing, but apparently it is a vast majority.

I think that's where the difference is - we don't agree on what's 'appropriate.' But in my time here, I've seen plenty of criticism directed at Rodgers. The 'does he hold the ball too long?' discussions were epic.

[pbmax]

What would you do if Rodgers can be no more accurate on the bad wheel? Have him take a seat and put Flynn in? How do we judge how injured he was?

Precisely what was to be done differently? You win with the players you have on the field, not their Platonic ideal. Not enough made enough plays.

The antidote is not to insist, somehow, that Rodgers play better when injured or that Bostick, Peppers or Burnett get smarter in the offseason. Its to choose a strategy to maximize leverage when you have it. They at least should have valued a first down more than a negative run that drains clock at the end. And they should have valued another shot at a TD on at least one of their first two trips down to the 1 yard line.

[Pugger]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/how-aaron-rodgers-won-over-earl-thomas-during-the-nfc-championship-game/

[woodbuck27]

[QUOTE=mraynrand;825520]This seems nonsensical to me. Rodgers didn't cause Nelson to stumble out of his break, and he didn't call the running plays at the goal line. You have a lot to complain about, but I will just say that I disagree with you about the main reasons for a less than average performance by Rodgers. Again, my evidence is the performance of other good/great QBs against Seattle, and Rodgers' injuries.[/QUOT

What's nonsensical to me is that the A-rod apology camp talks about the game as though my eyeballs deceived me. He missed a td to jordy on the goal line. He missed him deep(likely a td) on a free play. And he threw a dumb pick to Sherman, and I dont care if he "thought" it was a penalty. If you throw a jump ball you better make sure its a free play and you physically saw the yellow flag. All inaccurate throws. And that is just the first quarter. If you want to argue that a leg injury makes him sporadically accurate, then i cant disprove that i guess. I still think it is silly and a cop out. the guy did not have a good game and Seattle was begging to be beat. Again you had a opposing qb having the worst game of his life, and you couldn't outplay him.

Yes the way that Russell Wilson played the Packers should have crushed Seattle.

Good analysis on missing the pass to Jordy Nelson. That was an easy six blown.

On the pick to Richard Sherman he threw the ball where 'only' Richard Sherman (a former WR) could catch that ball. Aaron Rodgers threw it inside directly to coverage and an easy pick for Richard Sherman. The Aaron Rodgers excuse of it should have been a free throw because of a Seattle penalty at the LOS doesn't wash after his poor throw.

On that day except for the TD pass to Randall Cobb and the late game tying FG drive that wasn't the Aaron Rodgers we usually see and expect or hope to see.

I know that the offense was trying some new stuff. I know the hurry up offense was out because of the 12th man issue but Aaron Rodgers looked different.

I really wonder if he was medicated? Did he have a head cold? Was he properly rested?

Something was abnormally wrong with Aaron Rodgers in the NFC Championship game.

[woodbuck27]

Aaron Rodgers Photo Stream NFC Championship Game - Seattle.

36 Photos.

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/cSnyE-_VXXY/NFC+Championship+Green+Bay+Packers+v+Seattle/6l7PyoCf5XC/Aaron+Rodgers?prev_next=prev

[woodbuck27]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/how-aaron-rodgers-won-over-earl-thomas-during-the-nfc-championship-game/


Seahawks DB Earl Thomas Hops On The ‘Aaron Rodgers Is Basically Black’ Bandwagon

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/seahawks-db-earl-thomas-hops-on-the-aaron-rodgers-is-basically-black-bandwagon/

[yetisnowman]

What would you do if Rodgers can be no more accurate on the bad wheel? Have him take a seat and put Flynn in? How do we judge how injured he was?

Precisely what was to be done differently? You win with the players you have on the field, not their Platonic ideal. Not enough made enough plays.

The antidote is not to insist, somehow, that Rodgers play better when injured or that Bostick, Peppers or Burnett get smarter in the offseason. Its to choose a strategy to maximize leverage when you have it. They at least should have valued a first down more than a negative run that drains clock at the end. And they should have valued another shot at a TD on at least one of their first two trips down to the 1 yard line.

I don't have a problem with McCarthy being conservative on the goal line. Just my opinion. He didn't feel comfortable because Seattle was getting such great penetration in those situations. You are right we don't know how Rodgers injury affected his accuracy, but I would bet if you asked him honestly he would say he missed a lot of plays that he should have made, injured or not. My insistance is that he needs to play better in the playoffs. That is the one consistent thing I have taken away from our playoff losses since 2010. He has underperformed. i don't see us having a shutdown defense any time soon, so we need to be able to win games by scoring over 20 points. Yes the coaching staff needs to revamp their schemes and strategies, but your MVP quarterback has to maximize the opportunities presented to him. He has failed to do that too often in my opinion. If he doesn't step up and play better in the playoffs we will continue to lose. That is the one variable that I feel is certain.

[pbmax]

Under performed just covers too much ground.

He had difficulty with the 49ers and their Cover 2 taking away what they do best. So is the solution to change the QB performance or do something with the offense? M3's answer was to lean heavier on the run game to make the team pay for playing Cover 2. Outside of running short crossing stuff like the Patriots and Broncos, that might be the Packers best answer until they find a TE who can also extract a price from a Cover 2.

Prior to Lacy, if you were a team that plays Cover 2 and can't rush the passer (recent Bears or current Bucs) then Rodgers will just move and wait for Cobb or Nelson to find a hole in the zone.

Last year with screens and this year with shakedowns, we began to see the old Holmgren WCO answer to tight coverage.

The Seahawks are another matter entirely. The Packers can run on them, but not when they leverage against it. However, this Packers team can pass block them, and in single safety, someone will be open. A healthy Rodgers puts 30 on this year's banged up Seahawks defense.

[mraynrand]

Something was abnormally wrong with Aaron Rodgers in the NFC Championship game.

I think he had a calf injury

[woodbuck27]

We have members here that actually or seem to me to believe that Aaron Rodgers is the 'GREATEST NFL QB Ever !

Is there any accounting for such delusion?

Greatness isn't a label you attach to a QB:

a) Who has in 11 play off games A 6-5 RECORD.

b) Take away the 2010-11 season has a 2 W - 4 L play off record.

[denverYooper]

I think he had a calf injury

I heard whispers about that. Didn't think much of it at the time but you might be on to something!

[mraynrand]

We have members here that actually or seem to me to believe that Aaron Rodgers is the 'GREATEST NFL QB Ever !

Is there any accounting for such delusion?

Greatness isn't a label you attach to a QB:

a) Who has in 11 play off games A 6-5 RECORD.

b) Take away the 2010-11 season has a 2 W - 4 L record.

Ya, he's pretty good.

Why would you take away the 2010 season - unless you are deliberately trying to make him look worse? LOL funny stuff, woody. Here's an idea - take away all Rodger's TD passes and then ask - what has he really done? Not much, man. What a loser! No TDs! And some people are trying to say he's the greatest guy since Jesus! At least Earl Thomas likes him, even if stalwart Packer fans like Woody have abandoned him! :) :)

[esoxx]

By all means go ahead.....

I am surprised since joining this forum, at just how many people are not willing to put appropriate blame on Rodgers in general. I assumed it was a fringe-ish kind of thing, but apparently it is a vast majority.

I think there's a pretty even handed view out there about his play. Most will call it as they see it. He was on the loser list for the game after all:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?27560-Winners-Losers-NFC-Championship-Game-edition-Packers-Seahawks

I think he's had a good share of blame come his way for the loss.

[ThunderDan]

We have members here that actually or seem to me to believe that Aaron Rodgers is the 'GREATEST NFL QB Ever !

Is there any accounting for such delusion?

Greatness isn't a label you attach to a QB:

a) Who has in 11 play off games A 6-5 RECORD.

b) Take away the 2010-11 season has a 2 W - 4 L record.

Good-bye Marino. We hardly knew you.

[mraynrand]

Good-bye Marino. We hardly knew you.

usually the conversation goes from irrational to rational the further you get from the game, but with Woody, it can be a crap shoot :)

[mraynrand]

If you take away all of Eddie Lacy's runs over 10 yards, he's not very productive.

[mraynrand]

If you take away all of Clay Matthews' sacks and pressures, he's a pretty average linebacker

[yetisnowman]

Under performed just covers too much ground.

He had difficulty with the 49ers and their Cover 2 taking away what they do best. So is the solution to change the QB performance or do something with the offense? M3's answer was to lean heavier on the run game to make the team pay for playing Cover 2. Outside of running short crossing stuff like the Patriots and Broncos, that might be the Packers best answer until they find a TE who can also extract a price from a Cover 2.

Prior to Lacy, if you were a team that plays Cover 2 and can't rush the passer (recent Bears or current Bucs) then Rodgers will just move and wait for Cobb or Nelson to find a hole in the zone.

Last year with screens and this year with shakedowns, we began to see the old Holmgren WCO answer to tight coverage.

The Seahawks are another matter entirely. The Packers can run on them, but not when they leverage against it. However, this Packers team can pass block them, and in single safety, someone will be open. A healthy Rodgers puts 30 on this year's banged up Seahawks defense.

For what it is worth I have issues with the schematics at times too. To me questioning a play call or game management decision is always so convenient when it doesn't work. If the opposite decision was made, (ie throwing instead of running the clock down and going for it on 4th and goal) with a negative outcome, there would be just as much criticism. That's why I have to look at execution first and foremost, with the opportunities the scheme presented. And the opportunities were ample, and enough to win that game. Even if you want to blame 100% of the accuracy issues on the calf, (which I find absurd but let's say that for arguments sake), the decision making and mental focus was poor. I'm not sure how you can argue that. Both interceptions were easily avoidable, and were momentum killers. There are other examples through out the game, but just omit those 2 bonehead decisions and we win that game. The scheme and coaching will never be perfect and will always be subject to the criticism of hindsight. Aaron will also never be perfect, but he needs to be much more smart and efficient for us to win more championships.

[ThunderDan]

Wow, just looking up Marino's numbers.

He put over 5,000 yards in 1984 with 48 TDs. Then he went for 4,000+ the next two seasons.

[woodbuck27]

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/rodgers_correlation_ferocious_front_four_debunked/18182558?linksrc=story_player_aaron_rodgers_auto_m odule_head_18182558

Rodgers Correlation: Feroscious Front Four Debunked.

By: Thomas Hobbs

Comment woodbuck27;

Does Aaron Rodgers have a particular weakness vs certain defenses? This article endeavours to answer certain questions in regards of how a team might get and edge over Aaron Rodgers skills.

ie ... Is he weaker Vs strong Defensive Lines or the Cover-2 defense as that question came up in 2013?

[pbmax]

For what it is worth I have issues with the schematics at times too. To me questioning a play call or game management decision is always so convenient when it doesn't work. If the opposite decision was made, (ie throwing instead of running the clock down and going for it on 4th and goal) with a negative outcome, there would be just as much criticism. That's why I have to look at execution first and foremost, with the opportunities the scheme presented. And the opportunities were ample, and enough to win that game. Even if you want to blame 100% of the accuracy issues on the calf, (which I find absurd but let's say that for arguments sake), the decision making and mental focus was poor. I'm not sure how you can argue that. Both interceptions were easily avoidable, and were momentum killers. There are other examples through out the game, but just omit those 2 bonehead decisions and we win that game. The scheme and coaching will never be perfect and will always be subject to the criticism of hindsight. Aaron will also never be perfect, but he needs to be much more smart and efficient for us to win more championships.

Saying decision making by the QB is poor is just the same hindsight as questioning the play calling.

Cobb has said he made the wrong adjustment on his, so we can bypass the problem with Rodgers execution on that one.

I would love to learn how you are able to deduce a players "focus" level from watching on TV. Is it the same method as determining their "fire"?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Saying decision making by the QB is poor is just the same hindsight as questioning the play calling.

Cobb has said he made the wrong adjustment on his, so we can bypass the problem with Rodgers execution on that one.

I would love to learn how you are able to deduce a players "focus" level from watching on TV. Is it the same method as determining their "fire"?

It's easy to dismiss criticism as "hindsight." I would love to learn how one deduces that critical comments are motivated by "hindsight" rather than an honest difference of opinion on tactics or strategy.

[mraynrand]

It's easy to dismiss criticism as "hindsight." I would love to learn how one deduces that critical comments are motivated by "hindsight" rather than an honest difference of opinion on tactics or strategy.

so would I. Any ideas?

[woodbuck27]

It's easy to dismiss criticism as "hindsight." I would love to learn how one deduces that critical comments are motivated by "hindsight" rather than an honest difference of opinion on tactics or strategy.

Does this apply?

“When you are up to your ass in alligators, it’s easy to forget you came to drain the swamp.”

[yetisnowman]

Saying decision making by the QB is poor is just the same hindsight as questioning the play calling.

Cobb has said he made the wrong adjustment on his, so we can bypass the problem with Rodgers execution on that one.

I would love to learn how you are able to deduce a players "focus" level from watching on TV. Is it the same method as determining their "fire"?

He was looking right at that group of players, you should watch some of the detailed replays...he didn't have to throw the ball just because Cobb ran the wrong break. I get that is is snap second timing, but he could have not thrown the ball. And the pick to Sherman was an awful decision. Throwing up a jumpball banking on Davante freaking Adams vs arguably the best corner in the game is stupid. Also on the last drive he throws a back shoulder to Richard Rodgers and a long sideline route to James Starks(low percentage plays), missing open Nelson and Adams underneath for first down yardage.

Basically what you are saying is you can't critique any of Aaron's performance form the NFC championship game. All of it was out of his hands. Accuracy, execution, and decision making are not his fault. It's silly. Really I expect Aaron to step up, and some of you come up with one excuse after another. First it was the calf, then the defense, now the calf , and the coaching, and the receivers, and his sandy vagina. HE COULDN'T OUTPLAY A QB HAVING A CAREER WORST DAY HANDING HIM A TRIP TO THE SUPER BOWL! He wet the bed. Sorry.

You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary.

[mraynrand]

You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary.

I love that you've left room for compromise

[Maxie the Taxi]

Nope. The only way to know a person's motivations is to be that person. And even then the knowledge is not 100% reliable.

[yetisnowman]

so would I. Any ideas?

If you can tell me with a straight face you wouldn't have criticized different decisions that also resulted in negative outcomes then ok.

You guys act like it's a no brainer to have your gimpy sloppy qb throwing the ball up by 12 with 5 minutes left. Again if he had thrown incomplete passes on all 3 downs you would have bitched about the ridiculous coaching. Or God forbid an interception with 5 minutes left! And if on several of the 4th and short plays had we been stuffed and turned the ball over instead of getting fgs you would have bitched about that too.

I see a lot of circular logic here. Aaron had a bad game because of of his calf and the defense, causing him to be inaccurate and make bad decisions. YET, McCarthy is an idiot for not trusting him to convert first downs and complete passes without making mistakes when the clock running was our best friend.. ????? Can't have it both ways.

[yetisnowman]

I love that you've left room for compromise


Touche.....

This debate is just frustrating to me. I've never heard someone say that both accuracy and decision making are not the quarterbacks fault.

[woodbuck27]

" You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary. " yetisnowman

No ....don't be fooled yetisnowman.

Your correct in terms of their defense of anything anti Aaron Rodgers. You'd think their all 'mothers for their son'.

If you post anything -ve on Mike McCarthy your favorite beer pub :glug: quickly turns to cool aid on tap.

The claws and fangs really come out. You'd better have your armor on or have a normal sense of humor. :-)

[mraynrand]

" You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary. " yetisnowman

No ....don't be fooled yetisnowman.

Your correct in terms of their defense of anything anti Aaron Rodgers. You'd think their all 'mothers for their son'.

If you post anything -ve on Mike McCarthy your favorite beer pub :glug: quickly turns to cool aid on tap.

The claws and fangs really come out. You'd better have your armor on or have a normal sense of humor. :-)

Woody, you know this is incorrect. Plenty of criticism to go around.

[mraynrand]

Touche.....

This debate is just frustrating to me. I've never heard someone say that both accuracy and decision making are not the quarterbacks fault.

I don't think that's what's going on - I think people are just not agreeing with yours - and others' assessment of levels of inaccuracy or specific decisions being 'wrong' versus being either a 'less worse' decision than another or just a reasonable decision gone wrong.

[pbmax]

It's easy to dismiss criticism as "hindsight." I would love to learn how one deduces that critical comments are motivated by "hindsight" rather than an honest difference of opinion on tactics or strategy.

That would depend entirely on the quality of the objection and the nature of how its applied.

In this case, there is an argument being made that Rodgers must ID the flag being thrown before taking such a risk with a deep ball. But since that is very unlikely to be possible (flags of offside or encroachment come from the sideline and can be delayed), such shot plays would disappear as would the benefits. And that cost is quite high, the Packers have made a living on them. It very much helps their pass pro.

So we have an error and the identified solution is to essentially never risk it again because of the one bad outcome. That is just hindsight telling you there was one worst case outcome. No analysis that demonstrates the effect of the one outcome on the balance of the advantage or leverage the play accrues to the offense over the course of the season.

[pbmax]

He was looking right at that group of players, you should watch some of the detailed replays...he didn't have to throw the ball just because Cobb ran the wrong break. I get that is is snap second timing, but he could have not thrown the ball. And the pick to Sherman was an awful decision. Throwing up a jumpball banking on Davante freaking Adams vs arguably the best corner in the game is stupid. Also on the last drive he throws a back shoulder to Richard Rodgers and a long sideline route to James Starks(low percentage plays), missing open Nelson and Adams underneath for first down yardage.

Basically what you are saying is you can't critique any of Aaron's performance form the NFC championship game. All of it was out of his hands. Accuracy, execution, and decision making are not his fault. It's silly. Really I expect Aaron to step up, and some of you come up with one excuse after another. First it was the calf, then the defense, now the calf , and the coaching, and the receivers, and his sandy vagina. HE COULDN'T OUTPLAY A QB HAVING A CAREER WORST DAY HANDING HIM A TRIP TO THE SUPER BOWL! He wet the bed. Sorry.

You have an agenda, and that is the coaching is bad and that's what needs to change. Therefore removing any accountability from the qb is absolutely necessary.

If a player doesn't do what is expected, then looking at him while throwing doesn't help. See the pass late to Lacy. Same with any back shoulder throw. Most pro passes are thrown before the break.

I don't pretend Rodgers played particularly well. Its a dangerous and tough secondary and he was clearly limited by injury. As Patler has noted, it has been affecting his accuracy since it happened. He was good enough to get into FG range, but not good enough to push it into the end zone. He also missed Cobb on a slant that, if not for stumbling trying to reach low to catch it, would have been a first down rather than short by a yard, resulting in a punt earlier in the game (never saw if he just missed or had to throw around an obstruction).

But I have no agenda on Rodgers. If you travel back in time one full year, I was one of the few harping on the offense's inability to deal with the San Fran defense in their playoff game and not just criticizing Bush for a bad blitz decision or Hyde's poorly timed jump for a possible INT.

I do think the coaches have some share of blame in this game. I would hold Rodgers to a higher standard (and blame him more) if he was healthy and played like this. But its very difficult to grade an injured QB except to say it wasn't good enough.

[yetisnowman]

If a player doesn't do what is expected, then looking at him while throwing doesn't help. See the pass late to Lacy. Same with any back shoulder throw. Most pro passes are thrown before the break.

I don't pretend Rodgers played particularly well. Its a dangerous and tough secondary and he was clearly limited by injury. As Patler has noted, it has been affecting his accuracy since it happened. He was good enough to get into FG range, but not good enough to push it into the end zone. He also missed Cobb on a slant that, if not for stumbling trying to reach low to catch it, would have been a first down rather than short by a yard, resulting in a punt earlier in the game (never saw if he just missed or had to throw around an obstruction).

But I have no agenda on Rodgers. If you travel back in time one full year, I was one of the few harping on the offense's inability to deal with the San Fran defense in their playoff game and not just criticizing Bush for a bad blitz decision or Hyde's poorly timed jump for a possible INT.

I do think the coaches have some share of blame in this game. I would hold Rodgers to a higher standard (and blame him more if he was healthy and played like this). But its very difficult to grade an injured QB except to say it wasn't good enough.

well I apologize for making assumptions I have only been around a few months. I am just going to be smarting from this loss for a long time. You just don't get a lot of opportunities gift wrapped for you like that. I will not absolve the coaching completely. However no one has told me earnestly they would have not criticized McCarthy had he made different decisions that resulted in a negative outcome. The scheme and strategy was in place, and the defense played out of their minds. The offense and Aaron failed the most in my opinion, for failing to render the last 5 minutes irrelevant.
And by the way Aaron has been healthy and played just as poorly in Seattle two other times. That's a big reason why I can't buy into the idea that it was all his calf.

[mraynrand]

And by the way Aaron has been healthy and played just as poorly in Seattle two other times. That's a big reason why I can't buy into the idea that it was all his calf.

Well that opens a whole can of worms, because I thought Rodgers played better in the playoff game than those other two games. Of course I also believe that he played worse in 2012 because of an absolutely absurd game plan up until halftime; the point being that there's a lot to look at in those other games besides Rodgers that affected his play including weather conditions.

[yetisnowman]

Well that opens a whole can of worms, because I thought Rodgers played better in the playoff game than those other two games. Of course I also believe that he played worse in 2012 because of an absolutely absurd game plan up until halftime; the point being that there's a lot to look at in those other games besides Rodgers that affected his play including weather conditions.

week 1 23-33 189 yds 1 td 1 pick. He completed more passes but basically the same number of yards. So we still werent getting chunk plays and first down when we needed to. The difference is our defense was beat up especially in the second half. And Seattle didn't turn the ball over. So I guess we should just expect aaron and the offense to put up 15-20 pts and pass for 180 whenever we play seattle, which we will likely have to moving forward.

[th87]

I don't think it's a fair assessment to throw our hands up and attribute Rodgers' struggles against Seattle as "oh he was injured and facing a good team." Too high level.

We saw what we saw, and it was uncharacteristic sloppiness from him. On the first interception, Rodgers customarily confirms whether the offsides flag was actually thrown before he takes the shot deep. In this particular instance, he did not. I don't know what happened on the second one, but I hadn't seen such bad communication throughout the season. It was a bad time for it to show up then. It seems weird that a player could be so stellar with avoiding interceptions throughout the season, and then make two really bad unforced errors (unless it was only on Cobb). There were also other unforced misses - the big one to Cobb over the middle and the short throw also to Cobb that prevented the first down.

I pretty much have no way to prove this, but I do think that Rodgers can start to play tight in the playoffs if things aren't going his way (sometimes he breaks out of it though once he gets into rhythm). In the regular season, I see an easy-going and relaxed player, but in the playoffs, I see him yell at himself more and look skyward. Tightening up can cause him to miss passes he normally makes routinely.

This is obviously not to say that he isn't the best player in the NFL - he is. There is nobody I'd rather have at QB probably ever.

[pbmax]

On the first interception, Rodgers customarily confirms whether the offsides flag was actually thrown before he takes the shot deep.

Please provide some evidence of this.

[th87]

Please provide some evidence of this.

In past cases, it has been evident (to me) that he knows the flag has been thrown. Offsides flags would ordinarily be visible to the quarterback.

[yetisnowman]

Please provide some evidence of this.

Jesus, it is the quarterback's responsibility to see the flag and be sure it is a penalty before just chucking up a ball that is likely to be picked. In your eyes is the quarterback responsible for anything in a football game?

[pbmax]

In past cases, it has been evident (to me) that he knows the flag has been thrown. Offsides flags would ordinarily be visible to the quarterback.

OK, what was evident?

Flags are thrown from the sidelines on the LOS yard marker. They can often be delayed. The only time Rodgers does't throw is if the Ref or Ump blow the play dead (unabated to QB or similar). How does this square with he knows the flag has been thrown?

[pbmax]

Jesus, it is the quarterback's responsibility to see the flag and be sure it is a penalty before just chucking up a ball that is likely to be picked. In your eyes is the quarterback responsible for anything in a football game?

Please cite your source. Rodgers avoids INTs at a historic rate. What logic or evidence is there that this rule exists anywhere other than your imagination?

[yetisnowman]

Please cite your source. Rodgers avoids INTs at a historic rate. What logic or evidence is there that this rule exists anywhere other than your imagination?

Yes he does avoid interceptions at an historic rate, his interception rate would be worse if he just chucked up prayers assuming there were defensive penalties. Do you watch NFL games? Why would you ever assume a penalty in the NFL seriously? I don't need a source, there are no sources on something that obscure and obvious. It's logic. Do you have source stating that its not the qb's responsibility to be sure its a penalty? So let me get this straight, if an NFL qb THINKS there should be a defensive penalty, he should finish the play as though there is one, and is therefore absolved of any responsibility for the outcome of that play?

[woodbuck27]

On the first pick (Richard Sherman) Aaron Rodgers made a bad pass inside and to coverage. That ball was going to be a pick if the play was live.

As viewers we know when the QB has a 'Free Pass' because we see the penalty and/or flag and the announcer/color guy informs us of that 'Free Play'.

There is this:

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2015/01/22/16-plays-that-cost-packers-in-nfc-title-game/22173121/


16 plays that cost Packers in NFC title game

Ryan Wood, Press-Gazette Media 10:48 p.m. EST January 22, 2015

" Situation 1: Third-and-10, GB ball on SEA 29, 11 minutes, 23 seconds left in first quarter.

Play: Seattle's Richard Sherman intercepts Rodgers' pass intended for Davante Adams in the end zone. It was a curious decision from Rodgers, throwing a jump ball across the field against the NFL's top cornerback. Rodgers later said he thought Seattle defensive end Michael Bennett was offsides, something the film confirms.

Potential impact: The Packers were in field goal range, so at least three points. "

[denverYooper]

The NFL gave Rodgers a Free Pass.

2 time NFL MVP as of tonight.

[woodbuck27]

The NFL gave Rodgers a Free Pass.

2 time NFL MVP as of tonight.

I'm watching the show right now.

What time zone are you on? :???:

[denverYooper]

I'm watching the show right now.

What time zone are you on? :???:

The future.

[woodbuck27]

The future.

I just discovered that NFL.Com scooped the award ceremony.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000466415/article/2015-nfl-honors-complete-list-of-winners

[pbmax]

Yes he does avoid interceptions at an historic rate, his interception rate would be worse if he just chucked up prayers assuming there were defensive penalties. Do you watch NFL games? Why would you ever assume a penalty in the NFL seriously? I don't need a source, there are no sources on something that obscure and obvious. It's logic. Do you have source stating that its not the qb's responsibility to be sure its a penalty? So let me get this straight, if an NFL qb THINKS there should be a defensive penalty, he should finish the play as though there is one, and is therefore absolved of any responsibility for the outcome of that play?

I do watch games and I even get replays from behind the helmet of the QB. What he can see: the defensive end jumping off-side. What he cannot see: the line judge thirty yards to his right.

[th87]

I do watch games and I even get replays from behind the helmet of the QB. What he can see: the defensive end jumping off-side. What he cannot see: the line judge thirty yards to his right.

Okay, fine. That's just a minuscule aspect of the overall point: uncharacteristic sloppiness.

Rodgers was not himself this game for some reason.

[Joemailman]

Okay, fine. That's just a minuscule aspect of the overall point: uncharacteristic sloppiness.

Rodgers was not himself this game for some reason.

That reason might be that he was playing on one leg against the NFL's best defense. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't the reason the Packers blew a 12 point lead in the last 5 minutes.


Via EarlThomas.com:

Right from the start, the Packers did a great job of keeping us off rhythm, especially Aaron Rodgers. I have to give Rodgers a lot of credit. Going into the game, after watching the tape of their game against Dallas, I honestly didn’t think he was that injured. I was preparing for the real Aaron Rodgers, not the hurt Aaron Rodgers.

But that guy was really hurt out there. Going against him in the game, I could tell immediately that he was really in pain. And it sounds funny, but that actually caught me off-guard. Now that I’m dealing with an injury of my own, I have even more respect for him and what he did. A tremendous amount of respect.

Statistically, Rodgers didn’t have a stellar game — 19/34 for one touchdown and two picks — but Thomas goes on to say that he managed to keep the defense off balance all afternoon with his cadence amd that he wasn’t fazed by the Seahawks’ aggressive tactics. Basically, he played well enough to win (at least through three and a half quarters), despite a debilitating injury:

He used a lot of quick-strike plays against us, and he attacked certain spots on the football field. It played to his advantage that they were playing an aggressive team like us. We were flying all around, but he was moving so slow and smooth. His focus was on point. I think that gave him an edge in the game.

He also used his cadence to disrupt our rhythm. He was double counting, triple counting and the ball wasn’t getting snapped until two seconds were left on the play clock. They did a great job of controlling the game in that aspect. When you talk about a football game, the game is always won up front. We have a great secondary, but our front allows us to have a lot of leeway, and all of us were just off rhythm early on.

[yetisnowman]

I do watch games and I even get replays from behind the helmet of the QB. What he can see: the defensive end jumping off-side. What he cannot see: the line judge thirty yards to his right.

It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. I'll ask in a different way...is it a sound decision as a quarterback to assume anything in the way of penalties? Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty? And you really would think well, aw shucks, he thought there should be a flag so it's not his fault. If Sam Shields thought he saw a hold on the offensive line, then let his man blow by him for a touchdown would you consider that his fault?
There is a lot of grey area in this game with the calf, play calling, and scheme. But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part, then I think you just have to own you are blinded by some agenda that I don't understand.

[yetisnowman]

That reason might be that he was playing on one leg against the NFL's best defense. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't the reason the Packers blew a 12 point lead in the last 5 minutes.

No but he was a big part of why we were not up by 20 plus points with 5 minutes left. He even missed open receivers on the last drive that could have won the game.

[Pugger]

It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. I'll ask in a different way...is it a sound decision as a quarterback to assume anything in the way of penalties? Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty? And you really would think well, aw shucks, he thought there should be a flag so it's not his fault. If Sam Shields thought he saw a hold on the offensive line, then let his man blow by him for a touchdown would you consider that his fault?
There is a lot of grey area in this game with the calf, play calling, and scheme. But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part, then I think you just have to own you are blinded by some agenda that I don't understand.

That throw wasn't the best one he ever threw by a long shot but could that injury account for some of his inaccuracies since the Tampa game? Rodgers thought Seattle was offsides and replays show they were but we didn't get the flag.

[yetisnowman]

That throw wasn't the best one he ever threw by a long shot but could that injury account for some of his inaccuracies since the Tampa game? Rodgers thought Seattle was offsides and replays show they were but we didn't get the flag.

How the calf affects accuracy can really never be proven. I am of the opinion that the calf injury didn't cause him to throw the inside and a jumpball, instead of towards the corner where the throw needed to be. But again that can never be proven. I just think you have to overcome adversity....whether it's a gimpy leg, rain, loud conditions, physical defenses, etc. Some of you see a million excuses, I see a million opportunities to rise above and succeed. Aaron's performance looked more par for the course in the playoffs, rather than some aberration due to injuries.

[yetisnowman]

That throw wasn't the best one he ever threw by a long shot but could that injury account for some of his inaccuracies since the Tampa game? Rodgers thought Seattle was offsides and replays show they were but we didn't get the flag.

And I have yet to hear one good reason why what an NFL qb thinks is or isn't a penalty, is a justifiable excuse for turning the ball over.

[Joemailman]

And I have yet to hear one good reason why what an NFL qb thinks is or isn't a penalty, is a justifiable excuse for turning the ball over.

Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.

[mraynrand]

Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty?

Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.

[mraynrand]

But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part

I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.

[pbmax]

It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. I'll ask in a different way...is it a sound decision as a quarterback to assume anything in the way of penalties? Have you ever seen a qb giftwrap a turnover, simply because he THOUGHT there was a defensive penalty? And you really would think well, aw shucks, he thought there should be a flag so it's not his fault. If Sam Shields thought he saw a hold on the offensive line, then let his man blow by him for a touchdown would you consider that his fault?
There is a lot of grey area in this game with the calf, play calling, and scheme. But if you can't admit that pick to Sherman was a mistake on Aaron's part, then I think you just have to own you are blinded by some agenda that I don't understand.

If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.

By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.

But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.

Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.

[pbmax]

And I have yet to hear one good reason why what an NFL qb thinks is or isn't a penalty, is a justifiable excuse for turning the ball over.

Because it has been more successful than any other play the Packers run regularly. You might as well argue that running left is a bad idea because the Packers once fumbled on the left side.

You want a Rodgers criticism? The throw was late (or should have been thrown deeper/outside) or it beats Sherman for a TD.

[woodbuck27]

Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

[th87]

Rodgers likes to take a shot at a big play when he thinks he has a free play. He's done this throughout his career and has had some big plays off of it. This time it backfired. That happens sometimes. The next time in one of these situations he throws into tight coverage and hits Jordy for a 50 yard TD because he thinks he has a free play, will you say he shouldn't have thrown it because he couldn't be sure the flag would be thrown? I know I won't.

I contend that in those situations, he's seen the flag thrown.

[th87]

That reason might be that he was playing on one leg against the NFL's best defense. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't the reason the Packers blew a 12 point lead in the last 5 minutes.

This is precisely the 20,000 ft. view I'm talking about. Let's go to the ground level and examine the individual plays. Was it injury and good defense that caused him to miss Cobb deep over the middle, or on the slant? Or Nelson on the out route? It didn't seem that the defense was a factor on those misses - he was getting good protection, and the receivers were open. I couldn't tell you if it was the calf, but Rodgers himself had said that because the injury is not on his plant foot, his accuracy isn't affected.

I've noticed some unforced misses from him in the playoffs - things that don't happen as much during the regular season (it seems).

(It should go without saying that he's still the best in the business, but I don't think he's immune to questioning)

[Joemailman]

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

I'm pretty sure everybody knows it was a bad throw. Whether or not Rodgers should have thrown the ball is I believe exactly what we were debating. Yetisnowman said It's his responsibility to glance to the side, or notice a flag peripherally before just chucking it up. My position is that is that I believe Rodgers has made big completions before without knowing if the ref has thrown the flag, so I was okay with him taking that chance.

If I have misrepresented Yetisnowman's argument, I apologize.

[pbmax]

He's discussing that one play in that one game. A poor throw by Aaron Rodgers. Not as much the decision to make the throw.

At the time of the throw Aaron Rodgers wasn't thinking:

'Ohh boy a defensive offside 'a free throw'... so I'll just let it go right there inside and uncatchable.'

That was a bad throw. That throw could 'only' be picked and it was. End of story.

Is that fact so hard to admit as the truth?

Yeti has made two claims;

1. That Rodgers should be certain a flag has been thrown before assuming he has a free play. Assuming the flag will fly is foolish.

2. That the INT throw itself was a poor play, along with several other bad throws from him in the game.

Of course parsing both yeti and th87 is tough because one keeps responding to posts responding to the other.

[woodbuck27]

Yeti has made two claims;

1. That Rodgers should be certain a flag has been thrown before assuming he has a free play. Assuming the flag will fly is foolish.

2. That the INT throw itself was a poor play, along with several other bad throws from him in the game.

Of course parsing both yeti and th87 is tough because one keeps responding to posts responding to the other.

I've been posting all week that Aaron Rodgers wasn't right in Seattle and the fact that's the case had little to do with his calf injury given it was a week after his solid performance at Lambeau Field Vs Dallas. Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking. He looked not at all like himself and a regular season performance. As a member already posted. Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing.

Did you see him last night just prior to his MVP Award was announced?? If so what did you see? Did you observe him when his credentials were announced for the Walter Payton Man of the Year Award?

Aaron Rodgers is an intensely sensitive man. Aaron Rodgers gets balled up in his emotions. He takes all that into a big play off game (that chip on his shoulder attitude) and it doesn't spell 'good'. Look at the best athletes in any sport and winning. You see a winner. What you see most assuredly is coolness and seldom any cocky confidence. You see the nervous focus of a winner.

That's not Aaron Rodgers and playoffs since 2010-11.

[yetisnowman]

If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.

By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.

But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.

Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.


The reason why it hasn't burned them is because he was certain in all those cases it was a penalty. As he should be, if he is chucking up jumpballs. To me it is just common sense. It's not a "FREE" play unless their is a penalty, so the qb should be damn sure the play is free before treating it as though it has no consequences. And I just have to doubt that it is commonplace for a qb to have the greenlight to assume defensive penalties, otherwise we would see this exact scenario happen much more often. Have you seen Aaron or any other qb throw a jumpball free play style, only to have and INT or incompletion stand? If it has it is super rare, and I would bet the qb would admit he was at fault for assuming a penalty and wasting a play or throwing a pick.
The refs have shown just about any call, no more how obvious it may seem, is a judgement call. So I will remain adamant that a qb ASSUMING a play is free, and treating it as such, is not not sound decision making.

[yetisnowman]

I contend that in those situations, he's seen the flag thrown.


Ding ding ding ding ding......

[yetisnowman]

Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.

I meant where the turnover stood, hence giftwrapping it. Hence thinking it was a penalty, without knowing it.

[yetisnowman]

I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.

Sorry it's been pretty difficult for some to admit it was a mistake. Mistakes really only are mistakes with culpability attached to it. Other wise it's just bad luck. Aw shucks my calf, aw shucks the refs, aw shucks it's rainy in Seattle, aw shucks Richard Sherman....oh well maybe next year. In my opinion it is just a losing mentality to not expect Aaron to overcome these things. I am not claiming those are your beliefs per se, but I just see too many excuses that do remove culpability from a large contingency on this board. Sorry if I rub you thew wrong way, I have just been dealing with this argument for years.

[Patler]

If the QB waited to be certain of everything he thinks he sees, he would be sacked on every play. He assumes people will do their jobs. He assumes his own receivers will make the adjustments he expects, make the breaks he expects and at the depths he expects. He throws accordingly. If the receivers do not do as he expects, the result is often an interception.

When he sees what to him is an obvious offside, he expects the officials will also do their jobs. I seriously doubt that every time he has had a free play he has confirmed it by actually seeing the flag. He sees the offside/encroachment, and makes certain assumptions based on it.

Besides, the throw that was intercepted was not THAT bad. Sherman also made a very good play on the ball. It was not a good throw for sure, mostly because it was late but also because it was off target, just as many of AR's throws have been since the calf injury. I'm not blaming Adams, but on the other hand he also could have made a better effort at preventing an interception. I think he was surprised at how quickly Sherman adjusted to the less than perfect throw.

[yetisnowman]

If the QB waited to be certain of everything he thinks he sees, he would be sacked on every play. He assumes people will do their jobs. He assumes his own receivers will make the adjustments he expects, make the breaks he expects and at the depths he expects. He throws accordingly. If the receivers do not do as he expects, the result is often an interception.

When he sees what to him is an obvious offside, he expects the officials will also do their jobs. I seriously doubt that every time he has had a free play he has confirmed it by actually seeing the flag. He sees the offside/encroachment, and makes certain assumptions based on it.

Besides, the throw that was intercepted was not THAT bad. Sherman also made a very good play on the ball. It was not a good throw for sure, mostly because it was late but also because it was off target, just as many of AR's throws have been since the calf injury. I'm not blaming Adams, but on the other hand he also could have made a better effort at preventing an interception. I think he was surprised at how quickly Sherman adjusted to the less than perfect throw.

Well maybe we should write Aaron a letter and ask, I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine, given how inconsistent and downright terrible NFL refs can be, that Aaron has assumed correctly every single other time. But maybe you are right. I would argue given the officiating in the NFL, you shouldn't take that risk on an assumption, especially in a playoff game in a stadium where officiating hasn't been our best friend.
And yes the throw was that bad. Late+Off target towards the defender+against best corner in football=bad bad bad throw. Of course he made a great play on the ball, those plays are automatic for him. If Aaron or Adams were not expecting Sherman to make great breaks on thrown balls, then that is a whole other level of incompetence we haven't touched on.

[woodbuck27]

" Sorry if I rub you the wrong way, I have just been dealing with this argument for years. " yetisnowman

Your on Packerrats now.

It's like your trying to feed these guys a steady diet of castor oil.

[Patler]

Well maybe we should write Aaron a letter and ask, I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine, given how inconsistent and downright terrible NFL refs can be, that Aaron has assumed correctly every single other time. But maybe you are right. I would argue given the officiating in the NFL, you shouldn't take that risk on an assumption, especially in a playoff game in a stadium where officiating hasn't been our best friend.
And yes the throw was that bad. Late+Off target towards the defender+against best corner in football=bad bad bad throw. Of course he made a great play on the ball, those plays are automatic for him. If Aaron or Adams were not expecting Sherman to make great breaks on thrown balls, then that is a whole other level of incompetence we haven't touched on.

I don't know, but it seems to me that offside/encroachment is not a penalty that is missed very often; so yes, I think making assumptions based on it is not extraordinary at all. Besides, you have no idea whether or not he has assumed correctly every other time as you state. He may have assumed incorrectly other times and completed the passes, or he might have thrown simple incompletions. If this had been either of those, complete or incomplete, we wouldn't be talking about it, and wouldn't even know that he thought there was an offside.

You seem to be describing this as an unusually bad throw by AR, yet you seem to also want to minimize the effect his calf injury might have had on it. If it truly was an unusually bad throw, wouldn't you think that unusual conditions (his injury) might be a significant factor?

[woodbuck27]

Patler right now your Muhammad Ali. He's Joe Frazier.

This is 'The FIGHT'.

This isn't Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Frazier II or your 'Thrilla in Manila'.

[pbmax]

I've been posting all week that Aaron Rodgers wasn't right in Seattle and the fact that's the case had little to do with his calf injury given it was a week after his solid performance at Lambeau Field Vs Dallas.

Seattle Pass Defense Rank #3
Dallas Pass Defense Rank #22


Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking.

Rodgers Pass Rating at Home: 133.2
Rodgers Pass Rating on Road: 94.2


Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing.

Is his left leg involved in the mechanics of moving in the pocket?
Did McCarthy fail to put him under center because the Team Doctor's were wrong about the affect his injury had on his movement?
Did McCarthy practice him less because McCarthy is ignorant about throwing mechanics or because posters here are pretending that following through on a throw (landing on a left leg) is unimportant?
Have you ever seen Rodgers move around a lot, then throw a good ball to an open receiver? Is this easier, harder or the same with a calf injury?


Aaron Rodgers is an intensely sensitive man. Aaron Rodgers gets balled up in his emotions.

I once cried during a movie. Somehow, I was able to avoid this during football games, even the time I tore ligaments in my ankle. Though I do believe I took the opportunity to curse loudly in front of a lot of people.
Also, mind reading is a terrible analytical tool.

[yetisnowman]

I don't know, but it seems to me that offside/encroachment is not a penalty that is missed very often; so yes, I think making assumptions based on it is not extraordinary at all. Besides, you have no idea whether or not he has assumed correctly every other time as you state. He may have assumed incorrectly other times and completed the passes, or he might have thrown simple incompletions. If this had been either of those, complete or incomplete, we wouldn't be talking about it, and wouldn't even know that he thought there was an offside.

You seem to be describing this as an unusually bad throw by AR, yet you seem to also want to minimize the effect his calf injury might have had on it. If it truly was an unusually bad throw, wouldn't you think that unusual conditions (his injury) might be a significant factor?

Well you are right, I can't be sure. I just don't recall any plays in which Aaron treated them as a free play, when there was no penalty. Regardless of the outcome. This is the first time I remember that happening. And I watch a lot of Packers games.

I think the calf affected his mobility and footwork, sure but I do not believe it has that drastic of an effect on his accuracy. He was more accurate and efficient vs Dallas and Detroit and did not make the crucial mistake, in spite of his injury. Yes I know Seattle's defense is tough, but I still watched the game and saw errant throws to OPEN receivers, mis reads, and poor decisions that didn't appear to be affected by a pass rush or suffocating coverage.

What I saw was Aaron playing a crappier version of his typical playoff game, which sadly enough isn't good enough to beat good teams.

[mraynrand]

Aw shucks my calf, aw shucks the refs, aw shucks it's rainy in Seattle, aw shucks Richard Sherman....oh well maybe next year.

These items represent the reality of the situation. And all of them affected Rodgers' performance. They should all be factored into determining how much of Rodgers poor performance was due to external versus internal factors. At least I know the coaches will assess them all so they can correct what is correctable, rather than just ranting and saying Rodgers sucked.

[yetisnowman]

These items represent the reality of the situation. And all of them affected Rodgers' performance. They should all be factored into determining how much of Rodgers poor performance was due to external versus internal factors. At least I know the coaches will assess them all so they can correct what is correctable, rather than just ranting and saying Rodgers sucked.

Well the super bowl likely goes through Seattle for at least the next couple of years, so the latter three are not expiring variables. He has yet to play a good game there, injured or not. So what I am saying is he needs to step the fuck up or we will continue to spend mid-late januarys lamenting missed opportunities.

You have to compete against good teams with good defenses in the playoffs, that's the nature of the beast.

[mraynrand]

Well the super bowl likely goes through Seattle for at least the next couple of years, so the latter three are not expiring variables. He has yet to play a good game there, injured or not. So what I am saying is he needs to step the fuck up or we will continue to spend mid-late januarys lamenting missed opportunities.

You have to compete against good teams with good defenses in the playoffs, that's the nature of the beast.

Well, sure, you'd like him to have a better performance. But they certainly should have won with what he did. Perhaps another problem was McCarthy didn't let him do more. There were a lot of factors. My point is that you can look at his QBR and say "Gosh, Rodgers sucks" but that gets you nowhere in figuring to what went wrong, what went right, and how to improve.

[pbmax]

What I saw was Aaron playing a crappier version of his typical playoff game, which sadly enough isn't good enough to beat good teams.

It usually is:



Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass
Rk From To Lg Tm G W L T W-L% Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A
1 Jeff Hostetler 1989 1993 TOT 6 4 2 0 0.667 72 115 62.61 1034 7 0 112.0 8.99 10.21
2 Alex Smith 2011 2013 NFL TOT 3 1 2 0 0.333 66 114 57.89 873 9 0 108.6 7.66 9.24
3 Kurt Warner 1999 2009 NFL TOT 13 9 4 0 0.692 307 462 66.45 3952 31 14 102.8 8.55 8.53
4 Aaron Rodgers 2007 2014 NFL GNB 12 7 5 0 0.583 253 387 65.37 2983 23 7 101.0 7.71 8.08
5 Drew Brees 2004 2013 NFL TOT 11 6 5 0 0.545 306 464 65.95 3539 24 6 100.7 7.63 8.08
6 Erik Kramer 1991 1994 NFL TOT 4 1 3 0 0.250 91 130 70.00 999 6 3 98.2 7.68 7.57
7 Frank Reich 1990 1997 TOT 14 9 5 0 0.643 67 104 64.42 783 7 3 97.6 7.53 7.58
8 Russell Wilson 2012 2014 NFL SEA 7 6 1 0 0.857 111 181 61.33 1573 10 5 96.3 8.69 8.55
9 Joe Montana* 1981 1994 NFL TOT 23 16 7 0 0.696 460 734 62.67 5772 45 21 95.6 7.86 7.80
10 Mark Sanchez 2009 2010 NFL NYJ 6 4 2 0 0.667 95 157 60.51 1155 9 3 94.3 7.36 7.64
11 Jeff George 1995 1999 NFL TOT 3 1 2 0 0.333 71 129 55.04 1001 9 3 93.8 7.76 8.11
12 Ken Anderson 1973 1982 NFL CIN 6 2 4 0 0.333 110 166 66.27 1321 9 6 93.5 7.96 7.42

[woodbuck27]

"Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking." woodbuck27

"Rodgers Pass Rating at Home: 133.2 ... Rodgers Pass Rating on Road: 94.2" pbmax

Aaron Rodgers QBR in the NFC championship game was about 55 or about 40 points below his seasonal average on the road.

That's a shockingly poor performance.


" Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing. " woodbuck27


"Is his left leg involved in the mechanics of moving in the pocket?" pbmax

yes.


" Did McCarthy fail to put him under center because the Team Doctor's were wrong about the affect his injury had on his movement? " pbmax

Mike McCarthy is conservative.

Troy Aikman remarked that maybe his best throw all day was moving to his right out of the pocket on a decent throw to James Starks just outside of the Seattle goal line right. Aaron Rodgers reacted to that throw as it was so close to a completion.

Troy Aikman remarked that maybe his best throw all day was moving to his right out of the pocket on a decent throw to James Starks just outside of the Seattle goal line right. Aaron Rodgers reacted to that throw as it was so close to a completion.

4th Qtr:2-7-SEA 30 (11:11) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep right to 44-J.Starks.


" Did McCarthy practice him less because McCarthy is ignorant about throwing mechanics or because posters here are pretending that following through on a throw (landing on a left leg) is unimportant?" pbmax

Again MM is conservative (maybe over cautious?). Maybe? he babied Aaron Rodgers?


" Have you ever seen Rodgers move around a lot, then throw a good ball to an open receiver?" pbmax

Yes.


" Is this easier, harder or the same with a calf injury? " pbmax


If Aaron Rodgers makes even one or two more plays were likely getting set right now to play New England for the Lombardi trophy.

See my comment above and Aaron Rodgers rolling right to pass to James Starks and Troy Aikman's commentary regarding how Aaron Rodgers looked on that maneuver.

[pbmax]

If his best throw was an incompletion, then I would say he was perhaps affected by the injury and the Defense wasn't helping.

[woodbuck27]

Right now...... We've got an exciting Super Bowl game between the two best teams in the NFL.

Maybe? we'll get more from Aaron Rodgers next season and be there.

[yetisnowman]

Well, sure, you'd like him to have a better performance. But they certainly should have won with what he did. Perhaps another problem was McCarthy didn't let him do more. There were a lot of factors. My point is that you can look at his QBR and say "Gosh, Rodgers sucks" but that gets you nowhere in figuring to what went wrong, what went right, and how to improve.

The only reason Rodgers performance was close to good enough to win was because the Seahawks turned it over 5 times. Yes there were many factors, but Rodgers poor performance is as big of one as any in my opinion. Scheme needs to improve, discipline needs to improve, personnel needs to improve, and yes Aaron's performance in the playoffs since the Super Bowl run need to improve.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers played well enough against that defense in that stadium. Even led them back at the end of the game to send it to OT. Again, the refs blew the first interception. He thought he had and should have had a free play. Basically, Brady is following the same blueprint that Rodgers. With similar results. Much better than Peyton's results last year. It's a tough defense.

[woodbuck27]

Rodgers played well enough against that defense in that stadium. Even led them back at the end of the game to send it to OT. Again, the refs blew the first interception. He thought he had and should have had a free play. Basically, Brady is following the same blueprint that Rodgers. With similar results. Much better than Peyton's results last year. It's a tough defense.

Tom Brady went 37 for 50 for 328 yards and 4 TDs and 2 Picks.

That was 'a balls out' performance in the New England win.

[mraynrand]

Tom Brady went 37 for 50 for 328 yards and 4 TDs and 2 Picks.

That was 'a balls out' performance in the New England win.

I wonder how Rodgers would have done with 1) healthy calf 2) Avril out 3) nickel back out 4) on a neutral field

[yetisnowman]

Rodgers played well enough against that defense in that stadium. Even led them back at the end of the game to send it to OT. Again, the refs blew the first interception. He thought he had and should have had a free play. Basically, Brady is following the same blueprint that Rodgers. With similar results. Much better than Peyton's results last year. It's a tough defense.

If I read you A rod's stat line at the end of the game without knowing the score, would you have assumed we won or lost? In what way did he play well enough to win? This stuff is bordering on delusional. Seattle had 5 turnovers! And still won!

[woodbuck27]

I wonder how Rodgers would have done with 1) healthy calf 2) Avril out 3) nickel back out 4) on a neutral field

The next thing:

Some of you guys will be saying that Aaron Rodgers is better than Tom Brady.

If that's the case you better hope that MM grows a lot in this off season. Aaron's now three Super Bowl wins away.

[ThunderDan]

Tom Brady went 37 for 50 for 328 yards and 4 TDs and 2 Picks.

That was 'a balls out' performance in the New England win.

And how about the scorn for Wilson not being able to lead his team to a score and Carroll taking his foot of the gas up 10 and losing the game?

[mraynrand]

The next thing:

Some of you guys will be saying that Aaron Rodgers is better than Tom Brady.

If that's the case you better hope that MM grows a lot in this off season. Aaron's now three Super Bowl wins away.

Why ask us:

MVP VOTING

Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay 31
J.J. Watt, Houston 13
Tony Romo, Dallas 2
DeMarco Murray, Dallas 2
Tom Brady, New England 1
Bobby Wagner, Seattle 1

[mraynrand]

If that's the case you better hope that MM grows a lot in this off season. Aaron's now three Super Bowl wins away.

so is it Stubby or Rodgers who is at fault? Make up your mind.

[ThunderDan]

Easy to trot out the winning QB as the example to hold ARod to. If Seattle's O had been able to make a couple of first downs Brady never gets the chance to be the hero.

This is why football is the greatest team game. While the superstar QB and coaches are under the microscope, one botched assignment for your 3rd string TE on an onside kick can undo everything else from the game. You need a whole team that plays well in every facet to be a champion.

Hopefully firing Slocum is a first step in shoring up the worst part of our team.

[woodbuck27]

And how about the scorn for Wilson not being able to lead his team to a score and Carroll taking his foot of the gas up 10 and losing the game?

Your really one strange fella. :-)

This is a Green Bay Packer Forum.

[woodbuck27]

so is it Stubby or Rodgers who is at fault? Make up your mind.

Here sport you decide:

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2015/01/22/16-plays-that-cost-packers-in-nfc-title-game/22173121/

[woodbuck27]

Why ask us:

MVP VOTING

Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay 31
J.J. Watt, Houston 13
Tony Romo, Dallas 2
DeMarco Murray, Dallas 2
Tom Brady, New England 1
Bobby Wagner, Seattle 1

Yes Aaron Rodgers has the same number of NFL MVP Awards as Tom Brady.

Now check out this resume:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady

[Rutnstrut]

As long as we are doing the Brady/Rodgers comparison, in post season or a big game I'll take Brady every time.

[mraynrand]

As long as we are doing the Brady/Rodgers comparison, in post season or a big game I'll take Brady every time.

what a shock

[gbgary]

no pass given imo. Rodgers said if he were playing today in the sb he'd be 75-80%.

[mraynrand]

Here sport you decide:

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2015/01/22/16-plays-that-cost-packers-in-nfc-title-game/22173121/

nice evasion

[mraynrand]

Your really one strange fella. :-)

This is a Green Bay Packer Forum.

Here comes the lecture

[woodbuck27]

Here comes the lecture

A wise man once said:

Regarding people beyond a certain pre adult age. You can't teach common sense.

[smuggler]

Some of you guys will be saying that Aaron Rodgers is better than Tom Brady.

If that's the case you better hope that MM grows a lot in this off season. Aaron's now three Super Bowl wins away.

Ah, the rings argument. Nope. I love championships as much as the next guy, but in no plane of existence is Eli Manning a better quarterback than Fran Tarkenton.

Brady is not as good as Rodgers currently. Brady at his peak, that's debatable. He played well in the game today, but could just as easily have been a goat.

[mraynrand]

A wise man once said:

Regarding people beyond a certain pre adult age. You can't teach common sense.

to thine own self be true!

[woodbuck27]

Ah, the rings argument. Nope. I love championships as much as the next guy, but in no plane of existence is Eli Manning a better quarterback than Fran Tarkenton.

Brady is not as good as Rodgers currently. Brady at his peak, that's debatable. He played well in the game today, but could just as easily have been a goat.

That was a good Super Bowl game. Tom Brady was that games MVP.

Like most great matchup's it comes down to one play.

Last night and today Tom Brady and Patriot Nation is grateful to Malcolm Butler.

[ThunderDan]

The next thing:

Some of you guys will be saying that Aaron Rodgers is better than Tom Brady.

If that's the case you better hope that MM grows a lot in this off season. Aaron's now three Super Bowl wins away.


Congratulations Aaron Rodgers on your second NFL MVP Award.

You deserved it hands down.

So which statement is true? If Aaron deserved the award hands down how can Tom Brady be better?

[woodbuck27]

So which statement is true? If Aaron deserved the award hands down how can Tom Brady be better?

Both statements have merit.

[denverYooper]

Ah, the rings argument. Nope. I love championships as much as the next guy, but in no plane of existence is Eli Manning a better quarterback than Fran Tarkenton.

Brady is not as good as Rodgers currently. Brady at his peak, that's debatable. He played well in the game today, but could just as easily have been a goat.

Yeah, it's funny. He threw a pick in the endzone to end their first drive and another INT that gave Seattle the lead. That second INT really looked like it could have been the turning point for a while.

[Teamcheez1]

So which statement is true? If Aaron deserved the award hands down how can Tom Brady be better?

Tom Brady has had a spectacular career, no doubt about that.

Today, a healthy AR is hands down better than Brady.

[woodbuck27]

Tom Brady has had a spectacular career, no doubt about that.

Today, a healthy AR is hands down better than Brady.

Sure ... sure.

Tom Brady was MVP (3× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX) and won his 4th Super Bowl Ring yesterday.

[denverYooper]

I have your new avatar Woody:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B82FaBLIYAEo3zB.jpg:large

:)

[Pugger]

Ah, the rings argument. Nope. I love championships as much as the next guy, but in no plane of existence is Eli Manning a better quarterback than Fran Tarkenton.

Brady is not as good as Rodgers currently. Brady at his peak, that's debatable. He played well in the game today, but could just as easily have been a goat.

Yes, had Seattle scored and Wilson not thrown that pick everyone would be dissecting Brady's two INTs in that Super Bowl. Right now I'd take Rodgers and his skill set over Brady all day long.

[woodbuck27]

I have your new avatar Woody:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B82FaBLIYAEo3zB.jpg:large

:)

Thanks for being astute .

That's how I imagine I'll look in heaven. Young and sweet.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Tom Brady has had a spectacular career, no doubt about that.

Today, a healthy AR is hands down better than Brady.

Hands down?? Are you kidding?? Brady is better than Rodgers, period. More to being a great qb than throwing a nice ball. Brady is as clutch as it gets.. Four game winning drives in the SuperBowl..

The defense basically gift wrapped a packers win against Seattle and he couldn't even sustain a drive less enough come from behind by ten points. No one in their right mind would put rodgers over Brady. Not just all time but right now.

[Bossman641]

Call me a homer but I'll take a healthy Rodgers over the current Brady. Brady really struggles with pressure in his face (the end zone pick was horrific) and can't escape like Rodgers can. What was the stat they said last night, Brady was something like 1/23 on passes >20+ yards in his SB career? You can't only compare the NFCCG vs the SB. Brady had the benefit of health, a neutral site, and a Seattle defense missing their nickelback for almost the entire game and Avril for the majority of the second half.

[Teamcheez1]

Hands down?? Are you kidding?? Brady is better than Rodgers, period. More to being a great qb than throwing a nice ball. Brady is as clutch as it gets.. Four game winning drives in the SuperBowl..

The defense basically gift wrapped a packers win against Seattle and he couldn't even sustain a drive less enough come from behind by ten points. No one in their right mind would put rodgers over Brady. Not just all time but right now.

Right now, AR won the MVP. I'm sure he would prefer the SB, but he is a better QB than Brady now.

[woodbuck27]

Call me a homer but I'll take a healthy Rodgers over the current Brady. Brady really struggles with pressure in his face (the end zone pick was horrific) and can't escape like Rodgers can. What was the stat they said last night, Brady was something like 1/23 on passes >20+ yards in his SB career? You can't only compare the NFCCG vs the SB. Brady had the benefit of health, a neutral site, and a Seattle defense missing their nickelback for almost the entire game and Avril for the majority of the second half.

A healthy Aaron Rodgers.

Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench?

If it walks like a Homer and it talks like a Homer:

It's likely a Homer.

I have a system for Packerrat HOMERS. 'YOU' don't grade out at four stars.

Only one Packerrat deserves that distinction?

[denverYooper]

I think Leonard's a section 8.

[Pugger]

A healthy Aaron Rodgers.

Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench?

If it walks like a Homer and it talks like a Homer:

It's likely a Homer.

I have a system for Packerrat HOMERS. 'YOU' don't grade out at four stars.

Only one Packerrat deserves that distinction?

What are you talking about here? :lol:

Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but be serious. Rodgers' physical skill set today is much better than Brady's is presently.

[woodbuck27]

What are you talking about here? :lol:

Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but be serious. Rodgers' physical skill set today is much better than Brady's is presently.

Should I have inserted the word 'otherwise' between the second and third sentence for more clarity?

I'll try this:

The last two weeks it was:

It's "well ...Aaron Rodgers would have been terrific if he was healthy in Seattle".


Today it's .... "Aaron Rodgers physical skill set is 'much better' than Tom Brady's."

Tom 'is still terrific' Brady just won his FOURTH SUPER BOWL RING.

I'm not going way out on a limb here and I'm sorry if it's shocking:

Aaron Rodgers with Mike McCarthy as his head Coach will not win four Super Bowl Rings.

[mraynrand]

Hands down?? Are you kidding?? Brady is better than Rodgers, period. More to being a great qb than throwing a nice ball. Brady is as clutch as it gets.. Four game winning drives in the SuperBowl..

The defense basically gift wrapped a packers win against Seattle and he couldn't even sustain a drive less enough come from behind by ten points. No one in their right mind would put rodgers over Brady. Not just all time but right now.

On a neutral field, healthy, with Avril and the nickel corner out? I'd take those odds.

[denverYooper]

On a neutral field, healthy, with Avril and the nickel corner out? I'd take those odds.

It's almost like these things don't matter.

I'd bet Belichick would trade Brady for Rodgers straight up.

[Striker]

What are you talking about here? :lol:

Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but be serious. Rodgers' physical skill set today is much better than Brady's is presently.

Ever since I first came here I've wondered what woodbuck rambles about.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

No. Rodgers is the second best qb in the league. Rodgers had better stats than Brady but being great is not just about stats. Brady is number one, this is not even a debate. Its really not. No one leads a team/offense better, no one wants to win more than him, and no one is more clutch. Those attributes are clearly superior to Rodgers. What he did in the fourth quarter is legendary. What do you think the score of that game would have been had the Pats been given 5 turnovers?

Saying Brady is better is not an insult to Rodgers. I think he's the second best QB in the league. With the game on the line, in the biggest stage, with everything on the line, I would be lying if I said I want Rodgers over Brady. Brady won four superbowls with game winning drives, would have 6 if not for a few plays, has been to 9 AFC championship games (almost every year), and lets not forget he's 37. Brady >> Rodgers.

[Striker]

On a neutral field, healthy, with Avril and the nickel corner out? I'd take those odds.

Would Rodgers have a healthy leg as well?

I remember on one incompletion there was a straight shot at the first down if Brady scrambled, but he chose to chuck the ball in the dirt instead (the play where Gronk and Sherman collided).

[Pugger]

Should I have inserted the word 'otherwise' between the second and third sentence for more clarity?

I'll try this:

The last two weeks it was:

It's "well ...Aaron Rodgers would have been terrific if he was healthy in Seattle".


Today it's .... "Aaron Rodgers physical skill set is 'much better' than Tom Brady's."

Tom 'is still terrific' Brady just won his FOURTH SUPER BOWL RING.

I'm not going way out on a limb here and I'm sorry if it's shocking:

Aaron Rodgers with Mike McCarthy as his head Coach will not win four Super Bowl Rings.


This is what I was questioning: "Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench?" What are you talking about here???

And bully for Brady. He won another ring. But GOING FORWARD I'll still take Aaron over Tom. Tom is gonna be 38 and Aaron is only 31 and still in his prime.

[Smidgeon]

No. Rodgers is the second best qb in the league. Rodgers had better stats than Brady but being great is not just about stats. Brady is number one, this is not even a debate. Its really not. No one leads a team/offense better, no one wants to win more than him, and no one is more clutch. Those attributes are clearly superior to Rodgers. What he did in the fourth quarter is legendary. What do you think the score of that game would have been had the Pats been given 5 turnovers?

Saying Brady is better is not an insult to Rodgers. I think he's the second best QB in the league. With the game on the line, in the biggest stage, with everything on the line, I would be lying if I said I want Rodgers over Brady. Brady won four superbowls with game winning drives, would have 6 if not for a few plays, has been to 9 AFC championship games (almost every year), and lets not forget he's 37. Brady >> Rodgers.

These are all arbitrary designations assigned by third parties without statistical proof without defining what "clutch" means independent of a supporting defense (Brady would have lost yesterday if it wasn't for his defense's INT in the final minutes).

So no. Those attributes aren't "clearly superior". They might be. It's possible. But logically there is no way to definitively say that. Intangibles are intangible for a reason.

[Pugger]

No. Rodgers is the second best qb in the league. Rodgers had better stats than Brady but being great is not just about stats. Brady is number one, this is not even a debate. Its really not. No one leads a team/offense better, no one wants to win more than him, and no one is more clutch. Those attributes are clearly superior to Rodgers. What he did in the fourth quarter is legendary. What do you think the score of that game would have been had the Pats been given 5 turnovers?

Saying Brady is better is not an insult to Rodgers. I think he's the second best QB in the league. With the game on the line, in the biggest stage, with everything on the line, I would be lying if I said I want Rodgers over Brady. Brady won four superbowls with game winning drives, would have 6 if not for a few plays, has been to 9 AFC championship games (almost every year), and lets not forget he's 37. Brady >> Rodgers.

You'd want a 37 year old QB over a QB with Rodgers' skill set in his prime in 2015? Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but physically right now going forward Rodgers is a better QB than Brady.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

These are all arbitrary designations assigned by third parties without statistical proof without defining what "clutch" means independent of a supporting defense (Brady would have lost yesterday if it wasn't for his defense's INT in the final minutes).

So no. Those attributes aren't "clearly superior". They might be. It's possible. But logically there is no way to definitively say that. Intangibles are intangible for a reason.

Four game winning drives in the superbowl? Rodgers had two/three fourth quarter drives against Seattle were all he needed was a few first downs and the game is over.

[Teamcheez1]

Four game winning drives in the superbowl? Rodgers had two/three fourth quarter drives against Seattle were all he needed was a few first downs and the game is over.

And AR was throwing on every play? If I'm not mistaken, there was at least one drive in the 4th qtr where three consecutive plays were runs for no yardage.

[woodbuck27]

You'd want a 37 year old QB over a QB with Rodgers' skill set in his prime in 2015? Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but physically right now going forward Rodgers is a better QB than Brady.

When your comparing Aaron Rodgers to Tom Brady and then venture into the going forward thingy:

You cannot ignore Rodger's poor performance in the post season after 2010-11. Aaron Rodgers hasn't looked good more so great since the last Green Bay Packer Super Bowl win. What has transpired in your Packer world that contradicts that fact?

Tom 'Terrific' Brady was 'still terrific' yesterday. That fact bodes better for Tom Brady in the future than Aaron Rodgers recent past since 2010-11. Specifically and attempting to discuss Aaron Rodgers and greatness doesn't make sense based on his NFL resume to date.

Now maybe six seasons from now we can legitimately discuss Aaron Rodgers in such glowing terms? I'm not optimistic we'll have enough to really get there. I'm really poor with blind faith.

Here's an article that focuses on Tom Brady and other NFL QB's and greatness and Aaron Rodgers isn't in the conversation.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/02/fourth-super-bowl-win-for-brady-will-only-spark-more-debate-on-games-best-ever-qb/

Fourth Super Bowl win for Brady will only spark more debate on game’s best-ever QB

Posted by Mike Wilkening on February 2, 2015, 12:35 PM EST

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You'd want a 37 year old QB over a QB with Rodgers' skill set in his prime in 2015? Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but physically right now going forward Rodgers is a better QB than Brady.

As of 2/2/15, Brady is better than Rodgers all time and right now, yes. I have no idea if Brady will hit a wall next year. Everyone wants to talk about Rodgers not being healthy enough to scramble against Seattle, but Brady dropped 28 on Seattle without much scrambling around either. When Rodgers is 37 I doubt he's going to be running away from defenders and extending plays the way he is now. Brady at 31 and Brady at 37 are both better players than Rodgers. Brady at 38? who knows... I see no reason why the Pats aren't right back in superbowl number 7 w/ Brady next season.

People want to talk about how great Rodgers was playing hurt against Dallas (and he was) and yet those same people want to point to that as a reason why he didn't play good against Seattle. He could have been the difference in that game and he wasn't. He had at least 2/3 drives to end the game with a few first downs. If Brady was Qbing the packers that fourth quarter I truly believe the packers win. Thats the difference. Its not like plays weren't there. 3rd and 6 he throws a low pass to Cobb and misses the first down by less than a yard....

Rodgers is great. He's already top ten in my book, he's just not better than Tom Brady.

[mraynrand]

It's almost like these things don't matter.

I'd bet Belichick would trade Brady for Rodgers straight up.

You goddamn right he would

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

And AR was throwing on every play? If I'm not mistaken, there was at least one drive in the 4th qtr where three consecutive plays were runs for no yardage.

I'm a die hard packer fan and big supporter of AR. He's just not as good as Tom Brady though. Had Adams open on 3rd down to Quarless. Had bad pass to Cobb on 3rd and 6. I'm not talking down by ten needing two long touchdown drives in the superbowl with the game on the line. I'm talking big lead and a few first downs. This is not a debate. Throwing ability, arm strength, etc, etc, Rodgers is great.. He will go down as one of the best of all time.

But its not a coincidence the pats make it to the AFC title game almost every year.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You goddamn right he would

No he wouldn't. Because Rodgers had his chance to beat Seattle and he didn't. Brady did. Now he has four rings. As good as Rodgers is he still only has one.

[mraynrand]

This thread is just getting tiring. People arguing against Rodgers aren't going concede any extenuating circumstances or factors, and I'm not going to concede that Rodgers sucks and that there weren't other factors.

Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

http://www.scottgduncan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/hal-9000.jpg

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

What sucks is not Rodgers, what sucks is whenever someone argues against an idea that is unpopular it turns into an emotional conversation with exaggerated attack rather than staying objective and about the topic. I don't remember anytime saying I wanted anyone to concede that Rodgers sucks. Rodgers is the second best Qb in the league in my book and is already a top ten QB all time. I'm arguing he's not better than Tom Brady and thats because he's not.

[mraynrand]

What sucks is not Rodgers, what sucks is whenever someone argues against an idea that is unpopular it turns into an emotional conversation with exaggerated attack rather than staying objective and about the topic. I don't remember anytime saying I wanted anyone to concede that Rodgers sucks. Rodgers is the second best Qb in the league in my book and is already a top ten QB all time. I'm arguing he's not better than Tom Brady and thats because he's not.

I could do without the emoting too

but you're not the only one posting.

It's hard to argue with Brady being the best, based on the ultimate results, but I still think Cheat would drop him in a nanosecond if he could get Rodgers (because the prospect of Rodgers playing for another 8 years is better than Brady for another few years - and Rodgers has a more accurate ball, both deep and shallow, runs better, and has an iron will when it comes to TOs, etc.)

[Rutnstrut]

You'd want a 37 year old QB over a QB with Rodgers' skill set in his prime in 2015? Nobody is saying Brady isn't great but physically right now going forward Rodgers is a better QB than Brady.

I would want Rodgers during the regular season and Brady in the post season. Brady is a much better clutch qb.

[yetisnowman]

These are all arbitrary designations assigned by third parties without statistical proof without defining what "clutch" means independent of a supporting defense (Brady would have lost yesterday if it wasn't for his defense's INT in the final minutes).

So no. Those attributes aren't "clearly superior". They might be. It's possible. But logically there is no way to definitively say that. Intangibles are intangible for a reason.

4th quarter comebacks and playoff wins are not an arbitrary designation. A-Rod's lack of clutch, signature moments are obvious to people who analyze qb play. Tom Brady has 35 regular season 4th quarter comebacks in the regular season. A- Rod has 8. Jay Cutler has 17. Alex freaking Smith has 14. Tom Brady has engineered a game winning drive in 4 super bowls. A-rod has 1 game winning drive in the playoffs ever. Russell Wilson in 3 years has 3. Nothing arbitrary about that at all. Those are numbers. Numbers don't lie.

[pbmax]

4th quarter comebacks and playoff wins are not an arbitrary designation. A-Rod's lack of clutch, signature moments are obvious to people who analyze qb play. Tom Brady has 35 regular season 4th quarter comebacks in the regular season. A- Rod has 8. Jay Cutler has 17. Alex freaking Smith has 14. Tom Brady has engineered a game winning drive in 4 super bowls. A-rod has 1 game winning drive in the playoffs ever. Russell Wilson in 3 years has 3. Nothing arbitrary about that at all. Those are numbers. Numbers don't lie.

Doesn't the fact that Alex Smith and Jay Cutler have significant fourth quarter comebacks make you wonder about the efficacy of that measure?

[mraynrand]

A-Rod's lack of clutch, signature moments are obvious to people who analyze qb play.

OK, give some examples. People of name and note.

[pbmax]

4th Quarter comebacks actually seem to be the ultimate in arbitrary measures. Who cares how many game you win late versus how many games you win overall?

You want a come from behind QB or a QB who wins 70% of the time by blowing out the opposition in Quarters 1-3?

At best, its one measure of a QB, immensely influenced by the Defense.

[woodbuck27]

Damn but don't we all really want Aaron Rodgers to excel !

I want him to be NFL MVP for two more consecutive seasons just like Brett Favre.

I want him to lead the Packers to back to back Super Bowls just like Brett Favre did but win two more rings.

I want Aaron Rodgers to be awarded the Walter Payton Man Of The Year award.

I want him to be FEDEX NFL Offensive Player of the Year Award winner for the next three seasons.

[mraynrand]

Numbers don't lie.

in football, rarely do they tell the whole story. My experience in football analysis is that people use numbers to support all sorts of claims that may or may not be consistent with careful analysis of entire games and seasons. Because unlike tennis or swimming or running any distance, football is a team sport, and a quarterbacks' numbers, in particular, are influenced dramatically by game situations. This board for example, has analyzed 'winning drive' 'comeback' and 'less than four point victories' ad nauseam, trying to figure out what they tell about quarterback play, and little if anything was agreed upon as much as the fact that such narrowly defined categories typically reveal very little about a quarterback.

[mraynrand]

Damn but don't we all really want Aaron Rodgers to excel !

well, we got our wish.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You don't need any numbers other than Tom Brady has 4 game winning drives in the superbowl, 6 super bowl appearances, and 9 AFC title game appearances. What he did in the fourth quarter yesterday was legendary. No matter how much success he has he always wants more and that's I think the key to him being so great. He wants it more than everyone else. Rodgers has been the starter for 7 years. One superbowl, 2 NFC title game appearances. The game against Seattle won't get easier than that ever and he couldn't pull it off. Injured leg or not, he didn't make enough throws when it counted most. Brady almost always does.

Don't want to talk about career achievements fine. Brady beat Seattle with greater pressure on him (losing by ten) and less help from his defense. Rodgers was given 5!!! turnovers...For all the bashing of the defense over the years as whats holding us back from winning more titles you can't blame them ay all this year. This did enough against Dallas and did more than enough against Seattle. Rodgers carried us over Dallas but couldn't against Seattle. Brady carried his team past Baltimore and again against Seattle. He's better...For his career and right now.

[woodbuck27]

This is what I was questioning: "Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench?" What are you talking about here???

And bully for Brady. He won another ring. But GOING FORWARD I'll still take Aaron over Tom. Tom is gonna be 38 and Aaron is only 31 and still in his prime.

" Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench? " woodbuck27

" What are you talking about here??? " Pugger

Pugger:

You don't recall this happening?

I looked today to find something more on that. That happened way back around 2006-07 as I recall it. I'll continue looking. I just recall some early stuff and Rodgers getting slightly injured and thinking:

Man this fella is soft.

Of course all that was relative to who the starter was back then and there wasn't any or many tougher than him.

[Pugger]

" Isn't this the same Aaron Rodgers that injured himself falling off the end of the bench? " woodbuck27

" What are you talking about here??? " Pugger

Pugger:

You don't recall this happening?

I looked today to find something more on that. That happened way back around 2006-07 as I recall it. I'll continue looking. I just recall some early stuff and Rodgers getting slightly injured and thinking:

Man this fella is soft.

Of course all that was relative to who the starter was back then and there wasn't any or many tougher than him.

I don't recall this incident...

[th87]

I don't recall this incident...

It's a huge exaggeration. Rodgers sustained a hamstring injury in the 2007 season during practice, the week after his showing against Dallas. I think it was conveniently blown out of proportion in order to avoid a QB controversy.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

No offense, but this is a stupid ass thread. Who cares if we are giving arod a free pass, I am just so thrilled to have him on the packers, I am willing to give him more than one of them....

[mraynrand]

Of course all that was relative to who the starter was back then and there wasn't any or many tougher than him.

a few vicodins and some whiskey, and who even knows they're injured? #toughnessinabottle

[woodbuck27]

a few vicodins and some whiskey, and who even knows they're injured? #toughnessinabottle

An NFL record 297 consecutive starts (321 including playoffs).

but this thread is about Aaron Rodgers.

[pbmax]

Would everyone stop getting Favre in my Rodgers thread?

[Patler]

Rodgers vs. Brady. Who is better?

I have had this debate many times over the last 50 years; only with Bart Starr vs.______ (fill-in the blank).

It's not player stats, or championships won. Its not the quality of the defenses they played with or the relative strengths and weaknesses of the players around them, because they all play with varying levels of each. It's not injuries, because they all have and play with injuries at different times in their careers.

It really comes down to opinions based on watching the players in many, many different situations. How did they perform in those situations?

Bart Starr - having watched him play through out his career, one thing was very clear. No matter what the situation or conditions, no matter what had happened earlier, no matter who he was playing with or against, with the game on the line he was usually at his best. With the game on the line, he found ways to win more often than not. With the most miserable conditions that one could imagine, with the comfort of knowing he already had 4 championships in his pocket, with his team trailing by 3 he found a way to drive the field and score the game-winning TD, not the game-tieing FG.

Team mates have said that no one they ever played with wanted to win more than Bart Starr. I hear much the same about Tom Brady, and have seen the results.

For some players, odd things happen in clutch situations and they win. For others, odd things happen and they lose. Some become better players when the situation becomes tougher; for some, those "odd" things happen and they lose.

Faced with a final drive to win a game, with the pick of any QB I wanted, I would still pick Bart Starr. The drive to win the Ice Bowl was the norm for him. I always "knew" what would happen in those situations. Starr found ways to win, regardless.

My second choice very likely would be Tom Brady, or Joe Montana, or Johnny U.

Rodgers is a great QB. Peyton Manning is a great QB. However, neither has developed a reputation for being "clutch" in the most demanding situations. Have they engineered great comebacks? Of course they have, but they have also been on the field for more than their share of those "odd" situations that resulted in failures. I don't think it is a coincidence.

Oh, and in my opinion, Brett Favre deserves to be grouped with Manning and Rodgers in spite of the great wins he had during the season. I was never comfortable with my thoughts of how he would perform in the playoffs, until he became a Viking. Then I was very comfortable! :)