CURSED IN WISCONSIN AS PACKER...and BADGER FANS......IS IT REAL ??.CONSIDER

[Bretsky]

Why so many disappointing playoff losses for our Green Bay Packers?
I realize that this is not life and death…it is a game. But starting to think we are whammied.

The NFC Championship Game was just another in a long line of disappointing playoff losses for the Packers. I count a total of eight games in the last 20 seasons. I understand that many NFL fans have not had the opportunity to witness even a handful of playoff games in that span, so I know we're fortunate as fans to see winning teams year after year. That does not change the fact that we have endured what I consider to be a disproportionate number of heartbreaking playoff losses.....key losses with some terrible circumstances to boot.

I decided to make a list of those games in this forum. I’m wondering what you think are the most disappointing losses, and why.

Here is my list, in chronological order:

1). 1995 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Dallas Cowboys 38-27. Packers had the ball and the lead in the fourth quarter. After a Favre interception, the Cowboys took control and never looked back. In retrospect the way GB lost was a foreshadowing of many gut wrenching heartbreakers with Favre at the helm

2). 1997 Season: Super Bowl. Lost to the Denver Broncos. Packers came in as almost 14-point favorites, struggled throughout, gave up a TD with under 2-minutes left and lost when Favre’s 4th down pass to Mark Chmura fell incomplete. The play of that game still might have been a terrible short pass on 3rd down before Denver took the lead for good.....receiver wide open....just a terrible short throw if I recall correctly.

3). 1998 Season: Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a T.D. pass from Steve Young to T.O. with just seconds remaining. The Pack took the lead on a Favre TD pass to Antonio Freeman with a few minutes left, and the 49ers marched down the field to score the game winner. Notable on the winning drive was the fumble by Jerry Rice that was missed by the officials. Shortly after was the pass that began to create the TO monster.

4). 2003 Season: Divisional Round. Lost in OT to the Eagles. 4th and 26. ‘Nuff said.

5). 2007 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost in OT to the Giants at home. Pack wins the toss in OT and Favre throws an interception on the second play of OT. To magnify the disappointment, the end-zone view showed a receiving option (Levens) wide open and Favre threw the ball to Donald Driver, who was well-covered. Incidentally, that was Brett Favre’s last play in a Packer uniform.

6). 2009 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost in OT to the Arizona Cardinals on a strip sack that was returned for a TD. On the previous play, Greg Jennings was wide open and Rodgers overthrew an almost certain game-winning TD pass. On the game-ending play, Rodgers was hit in the helmet and also had his facemask grabbed. No penalty was called.

7). 2013 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a game-ending field goal as time expired. Packers played a very solid game, and defended the 49ers option read relatively well. On the game-winning drive, the Packers had a golden opportunity on an out route that was jumped by Micah Hyde. He had clear sailing to the end zone for a game-winning pick 6; he dropped it.

8). 2014 Season. NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Seahawks. We all witnessed this; no need for further commentary.

***********and let's not forget the FAIL MARY ***********regular season game

As Badger Fans we have recently witnessed

a successful Hail Mary vs Michigan State that was reviewed on replay and ended the game,
referees literally not allowing WI to snap the ball as time expired (of course they admitted air),

and in Basketball........when we had a chance to embrace our SHINING MOMENT......the one thing I've been asking for the past 25 years (A national title at UW Madison in either basketball or football before I die)...................

after I lean over and tell my daughters in the Dome At Indianapolis with just over 13 minutes left when we are up by 9 points......"in thirteen minutes we can be the national champions"

I witness the most epic meltdown in officiating I can recall in college basketball that included

1. A blatant charge by Winslow resulting in a foul on Dukon (-2points)
2. Winslow stepping on the out of bounce line and on that possession here comes a 3 (-3 pts)
3. An Obvious FLOP the refs fell for and called a charge on Dukon
4. A replay clearly showing the ball off Duke and they keep possession and hit a 3 (-3pts)
5. Another charge by Winslow against Hayes where nothing was called
6, Constant Duke No Calls on consistent bumping and hard reaching in calls....see the offensive possession where UW times out for a shot and Frank just tossed it at the hoop as an example.......
7 Not to mention in the 2nd half, after witnessing Coach K scream and yell at the refs at the end of the second half and halftime, they decided to plan there lips on his ass and change the way they officiated from half 1 to half2

Coupled with Decker not showing up, Bo making a couple terrible substitutions at the wrong time, and Jackson being completely lost in the second half.............

All of that together made the game unwinnable....................

It felt like the Seattle game............but the Referees were our Special Teams Unit..........




ARE WE CURSED ????? Have I missed anything ?

[red]

Why don't you just bend us all over and fuck us in the asses while you're at it

My god, I didn't want to remember all that. Thank god for the early on set dementia

[texaspackerbacker]

Victims of biased damn officiating, hell yeah! I've been saying that for a long time. But CURSED? No Way. Cursed would be Minnesota with the Vikings, Gophers, and Timberwolves, Cursed would be Chicago with the Cubs and Bears and throw in the Illini and Northwestern. Probably half a dozen or more other venues are similar shipwrecks.

We Wisconsin team fans have been BLESSED more than just about anybody else with the Packers being on top for so long and both Badger football and basketball so great also.

[th87]

Why so many disappointing playoff losses for our Green Bay Packers?
I realize that this is not life and death…it is a game. But starting to think we are whammied.

The NFC Championship Game was just another in a long line of disappointing playoff losses for the Packers. I count a total of eight games in the last 20 seasons. I understand that many NFL fans have not had the opportunity to witness even a handful of playoff games in that span, so I know we're fortunate as fans to see winning teams year after year. That does not change the fact that we have endured what I consider to be a disproportionate number of heartbreaking playoff losses.....key losses with some terrible circumstances to boot.

I decided to make a list of those games in this forum. I’m wondering what you think are the most disappointing losses, and why.

Here is my list, in chronological order:

1). 1995 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Dallas Cowboys 38-27. Packers had the ball and the lead in the fourth quarter. After a Favre interception, the Cowboys took control and never looked back. In retrospect the way GB lost was a foreshadowing of many gut wrenching heartbreakers with Favre at the helm

2). 1997 Season: Super Bowl. Lost to the Denver Broncos. Packers came in as almost 14-point favorites, struggled throughout, gave up a TD with under 2-minutes left and lost when Favre’s 4th down pass to Mark Chmura fell incomplete. The play of that game still might have been a terrible short pass on 3rd down before Denver took the lead for good.....receiver wide open....just a terrible short throw if I recall correctly.

3). 1998 Season: Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a T.D. pass from Steve Young to T.O. with just seconds remaining. The Pack took the lead on a Favre TD pass to Antonio Freeman with a few minutes left, and the 49ers marched down the field to score the game winner. Notable on the winning drive was the fumble by Jerry Rice that was missed by the officials. Shortly after was the pass that began to create the TO monster.

4). 2003 Season: Divisional Round. Lost in OT to the Eagles. 4th and 26. ‘Nuff said.

5). 2007 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost in OT to the Giants at home. Pack wins the toss in OT and Favre throws an interception on the second play of OT. To magnify the disappointment, the end-zone view showed a receiving option (Levens) wide open and Favre threw the ball to Donald Driver, who was well-covered. Incidentally, that was Brett Favre’s last play in a Packer uniform.

6). 2009 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost in OT to the Arizona Cardinals on a strip sack that was returned for a TD. On the previous play, Greg Jennings was wide open and Rodgers overthrew an almost certain game-winning TD pass. On the game-ending play, Rodgers was hit in the helmet and also had his facemask grabbed. No penalty was called.

7). 2013 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a game-ending field goal as time expired. Packers played a very solid game, and defended the 49ers option read relatively well. On the game-winning drive, the Packers had a golden opportunity on an out route that was jumped by Micah Hyde. He had clear sailing to the end zone for a game-winning pick 6; he dropped it.

8). 2014 Season. NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Seahawks. We all witnessed this; no need for further commentary.

***********and let's not forget the FAIL MARY ***********regular season game

As Badger Fans we have recently witnessed

a successful Hail Mary vs Michigan State that was reviewed on replay and ended the game,
referees literally not allowing WI to snap the ball as time expired (of course they admitted air),

and in Basketball........when we had a chance to embrace our SHINING MOMENT......the one thing I've been asking for the past 25 years (A national title at UW Madison in either basketball or football before I die)...................

after I lean over and tell my daughters in the Dome At Indianapolis with just over 13 minutes left when we are up by 9 points......"in thirteen minutes we can be the national champions"

I witness the most epic meltdown in officiating I can recall in college basketball that included

1. A blatant charge by Winslow resulting in a foul on Dukon (-2points)
2. Winslow stepping on the out of bounce line and on that possession here comes a 3 (-3 pts)
3. An Obvious FLOP the refs fell for and called a charge on Dukon
4. A replay clearly showing the ball off Duke and they keep possession and hit a 3 (-3pts)
5. Another charge by Winslow against Hayes where nothing was called
6, Constant Duke No Calls on consistent bumping and hard reaching in calls....see the offensive possession where UW times out for a shot and Frank just tossed it at the hoop as an example.......
7 Not to mention in the 2nd half, after witnessing Coach K scream and yell at the refs at the end of the second half and halftime, they decided to plan there lips on his ass and change the way they officiated from half 1 to half2

Coupled with Decker not showing up, Bo making a couple terrible substitutions at the wrong time, and Jackson being completely lost in the second half.............

All of that together made the game unwinnable....................

It felt like the Seattle game............but the Referees were our Special Teams Unit..........




ARE WE CURSED ????? Have I missed anything ?

Makes me wish I wasn't so into sports. In way too deep. It's like repeatedly going back to a terrible girlfriend.

[mraynrand]

These goofy looking idiots say: Cry me a river!

http://media.cleveland.com/browns_impact/photo/eric-dealpng-2d4331d508345472.png

[pbmax]

I find complaints about Duke being favored by the officiating comical. Because every Big Ten team thinks the officials have been paid off by the Badger Basketball team since Bo arrived. Hell, people complained about Dick Bennett's post defense tactics.

Complaining about refs is the purview of Mets and Vikings fans (sorry Ras, you are the exception). Just sack up and win the game.

And Bo has to recruit better defenders to deal with quick guards (been a problem his entire tenure).

The Browns Home unis are terrible. Need to bring back orange pants.

[th87]

I find complaints about Duke being favored by the officiating comical. Because every Big Ten team thinks the officials have been paid off by the Badger Basketball team since Bo arrived. Hell, people complained about Dick Bennett's post defense tactics.

Complaining about refs is the purview of Mets and Vikings fans (sorry Ras, you are the exception). Just sack up and win the game.

And Bo has to recruit better defenders to deal with quick guards (been a problem his entire tenure).

The Browns Home unis are terrible. Need to bring back orange pants.

I don't understand the argument of "the refs don't decide the game; the players should deliver." Why can't the refs be a factor as well? Lots of stuff goes into the formula, with the refs being one such component. Yes, if the Badgers played better, they would've won, but they would've had to offset the negative that the suddenly slanted officiating produced.

[th87]

These goofy looking idiots say: Cry me a river!


I don't know - with low expectations, it's hard to be disappointed. Following the Bucks the last decade or so has been pretty easy, really.

[smuggler]

Cleveland will always be cursed until they put their true mascot on their helmet...

http://static.flickr.com/134/327418810_3987d24dbb_o.gif

[mraynrand]

Cleveland will always be cursed until they put their true mascot on their helmet...

I was arguing for this with lifelong Brownie fans just this evening. Laughing stock comes to mind...

[texaspackerbacker]

I find complaints about Duke being favored by the officiating comical. Because every Big Ten team thinks the officials have been paid off by the Badger Basketball team since Bo arrived. Hell, people complained about Dick Bennett's post defense tactics.

Complaining about refs is the purview of Mets and Vikings fans (sorry Ras, you are the exception). Just sack up and win the game.

And Bo has to recruit better defenders to deal with quick guards (been a problem his entire tenure).

The Browns Home unis are terrible. Need to bring back orange pants.

I say again, did you even see the game? Have you seen ANY Wisconsin games over the Bo Ryan era? The Badgers simply don't play THUG DEFENSE - like damn Izzo's Michigan State, like Duke in the championship game, like several wannabes of Izzo in the Big Ten, like the old Detroit Pistons, like the San Antonio Spurs, etc.

The excuse given is "it's their game". Well shit! That's pretty damn pathetic that those teams get away with the crap just because it's the only way they can win a game. What happens in the rare instance that they call a game FAIR? Look at the first Iowa game this year; Look at the first half against Duke. The opponent gets 5 or 6 times the fouls of the Badgers because THEY DESERVE THEM! Hell, they probably deserve 10 or 20 times as many.

As for the Bucks, anybody around in the days of Kareem knows, he got shitted on by officials regularly in Milwaukee. He'd get beat up with no calls. Then, miraculously, when he went to the Lakers, the exact same stuff was NOT called on him, and anyone even breathing on Kareem got called. DAMN! That made me mad! The exact same shit happened with Steve Nash - damn near run out of the league getting mugged repeatedly by defenders when he played for Dallas. Then he went to Phoenix and later the Lakers, and suddenly it was "thou shalt not touch Steve Nash".

The Packers have had those bad calls mentioned - with obvious bad effects. However, overall, I think the officials have not been horribly unfair to them, not like they have been to Badger and Buck basketball anyway.

But even with all of that, we aren't "Cursed". We're BLESSED with fantastic success of the teams we are fans of.

[Bretsky]

I don't understand the argument of "the refs don't decide the game; the players should deliver." Why can't the refs be a factor as well? Lots of stuff goes into the formula, with the refs being one such component. Yes, if the Badgers played better, they would've won, but they would've had to offset the negative that the suddenly slanted officiating produced.


Completely agree; I think this argument is crap too. It's not like WI fans are the only ones pointing out he Captain Obvious here Articles written on that game and pretty agreed upon that the game was terribly officiated.
Of course if the Badgers played better they win. Ditto for every loss in sports.

Just asking for consistency from officials in a game, to make the obvious calls, and not botch any easy ones. They failed on all three levels

[Bretsky]

Why don't you just bend us all over and fuck us in the asses while you're at it

My god, I didn't want to remember all that. Thank god for the early on set dementia


we need threads like this to get the blood boiling here and there
otherwise it's a bit slow in the offseason

I hope I haven't made you relapse into binge drinking after reading this :)

[pbmax]

I don't understand the argument of "the refs don't decide the game; the players should deliver." Why can't the refs be a factor as well? Lots of stuff goes into the formula, with the refs being one such component. Yes, if the Badgers played better, they would've won, but they would've had to offset the negative that the suddenly slanted officiating produced.

They can decide a game, and they can produce monumentally bad decisions. Duke wasn't happy with a 7-2 imbalance in calls in the first half. UW wasn't happy with the objectively wrong calls and 10-2 imbalance in the second half.

Its not rigged. You have to overcome it. Refs are like rebounds, they don't just fall into the team's lap by chance, evenly split. You have to work hard to make it break even.

You need to shoot well from 3. You need to touch the post. You need to shoot from the wide open wings (Gasser and Hayes). And you need to defend quick guards on ball screens better.

[Pugger]

In the Wisconsin/Duke game had the Badgers just shot the damn ball better they would have won despite the refs. Throughout the tournament Bucky went thru stretches where the ball just would not go in the basket and it burned them in that game.

I think we got robbed in the Fail Mary game but in the NFCC game we really blew it there. I still can't believe how we collapsed like that. I truly believe had Rodgers been 100% we would have won but man, choking away a game like that can give a girl nightmares. :sad:

[Patler]

I will separate my comments between the Packers and the Badgers.

First, the Packers. Most, not all, playoff losses tend to be disappointing to the losing team. Teams are generally evenly matched and games tend to be close. Close losses are disappointing losses. When you have a team that makes the playoffs year after year after year there will be some disappointing losses along the way. For sure, some stand out, such as the final play losses. The Seattle game this past season was particularly excruciating because they seemed to have the game well in hand with only a few minutes left. How many Packer playoff wins have been "disappointing losses" for their opponents?

I am not enough of a Badger fan to discuss their disappointing losses because, to be honest, I don't remember them. With all due respect to the Badger fans on this site, since the Badgers started gaining success in football and basketball, many of their fans have become whiners. Regarding the basketball championship game, there were some poor calls, but officiating did not decide that game. Failed execution throughout the game more so than a bad call here and there decided that game. Instead of accepting that, Badger fans wanted the officials to call the game in a way that would favor the Badgers and help compensate for their failed execution. I watched the game with a group that included one Badger fan and five like myself who had an interest in the Badgers, would like to have seen a win, but were not fans. Most had varying degrees of contempt for Duke. Certainly, all in the group would have preferred to see a Badger win rather than another championship for Duke. Throughout the game comments were about the Badgers blowing opportunities and setting themselves up for a disappointing loss. There were not as many "bad calls" by the officials as many Badger fans seem to think, at least not in the perspective of a group that was basically impartial.

[Patler]

They can decide a game, and they can produce monumentally bad decisions. Duke wasn't happy with a 7-2 imbalance in calls in the first half. UW wasn't happy with the objectively wrong calls and 10-2 imbalance in the second half.

Its not rigged. You have to overcome it. Refs are like rebounds, they don't just fall into the team's lap by chance, evenly split. You have to work hard to make it break even.

You need to shoot well from 3. You need to touch the post. You need to shoot from the wide open wings (Gasser and Hayes). And you need to defend quick guards on ball screens better.

I agree. I had an interesting discussion the other day with a guy who saw the Duke game as having a bad call here and there, such as the out of bounds play, but thought the game was fairly officiated for a championship game. He said, in essence, the refs called one half in the way the Badgers would prefer and called the second half in the way Duke would prefer. He argued neither was wrong, just different styles. I tend to agree.

[vince]

I was pissed about the Badger loss until I looked at the final score and saw that the winners finished with an "8" and the losers a "3". I lucked out and won $800 in a $50/square March Madness pool. That was all I needed to justify upgrading the ol' hot tub. Cursed? I'd say who gives a shit now. Winning money when your team loses is a good way to soften the emotional blow. I think I might try that more often.

[Patler]

I was pissed about the Badger loss until I looked at the final score and saw that the winners finished with an "8" and the losers a "3". I lucked out and won $800 in a $50/square March Madness pool. That was all I needed to justify upgrading the ol' hot tub. Cursed? I'd say who gives a shit now. Winning money when your team loses is a good way to soften the emotional blow. I think I might try that more often.

That same perspective is becoming very prevalent among fantasy league participants. Who cares if the Packers lost and the Bears won so long as your fantasy players did well?

[hoosier]

I don't understand the argument of "the refs don't decide the game; the players should deliver." Why can't the refs be a factor as well? Lots of stuff goes into the formula, with the refs being one such component. Yes, if the Badgers played better, they would've won, but they would've had to offset the negative that the suddenly slanted officiating produced.

I think PBs point--which I agree with--was that Badger fans are predisposed to notice bad calls that go against Wisco and to be blind to bad calls that favor our team. Arizona and KY fans were whining up a storm about how the officiating was slanted in favor of Wisconsin. Complaining about the refs is pointless for the team (beyond their control) and for the fans, who are unable to be reliable judges of what is good and what is bad officiating.

[mraynrand]

That same perspective is becoming very prevalent among fantasy league participants. Who cares if the Packers lost and the Bears won so long as your fantasy players did well?

This is why I loath FF

[mraynrand]

I think PBs point--which I agree with--was that Badger fans are predisposed to notice bad calls that go against Wisco and to be blind to bad calls that favor our team. Arizona and KY fans were whining up a storm about how the officiating was slanted in favor of Wisconsin. Complaining about the refs is pointless for the team (beyond their control) and for the fans, who are unable to be reliable judges of what is good and what is bad officiating.

WI fans are better than AZ and KY fans. That's the critical difference.

Still, carping about the refs is as inevitable as grumbling about the weather. But it never changes anything and it typically doesn't make you feel any better.

[pbmax]

That same perspective is becoming very prevalent among fantasy league participants. Who cares if the Packers lost and the Bears won so long as your fantasy players did well?

I don't know if fantasy really affects the outlook of the committed base of fans. I have never seen someone I know to be a die hard comforted much by a Fantasy outcome. Its a nice paper victory, but they would swap it for team success every time. When I played regularly, one of the frequent complaints of pundits was that no one cared about the team anymore only their players. I think this takes Fantasy interest completely out of context. I am fully capable of holding two things true: one, I want the Packers to win; and two, it would be better for my Fantasy team if Forte scored when the Bears had the ball, rather than Cutler or Marshall.

However, there is no doubt that Fantasy and the social groups around it, have puffed up the periphery of fandom into a sizable force. If Fantasy went out of vogue I think the effect would be measurable across the board, TV, print/digital media and ticket sales.

[Patler]

I don't know if fantasy really affects the outlook of the committed base of fans. I have never seen someone I know to be a die hard comforted much by a Fantasy outcome. Its a nice paper victory, but they would swap it for team success every time. When I played regularly, one of the frequent complaints of pundits was that no one cared about the team anymore only their players. I think this takes Fantasy interest completely out of context. I am fully capable of holding two things true: one, I want the Packers to win; and two, it would be better for my Fantasy team if Forte scored when the Bears had the ball, rather than Cutler or Marshall.

However, there is no doubt that Fantasy and the social groups around it, have puffed up the periphery of fandom into a sizable force. If Fantasy went out of vogue I think the effect would be measurable across the board, TV, print/digital media and ticket sales.

I see it all the time with friends and even family members who were diehard Packer fans. They follow players more than teams.

[Patler]

This is why I loath FF

Me too.

[mraynrand]

I don't know if fantasy really affects the outlook of the committed base of fans.

Problem is that there is a huge FF base of non-committed fans, fair weather fans, etc. They are insufferable.

[HowardRoark]

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid Viking fans who neither know victory nor defeat.

[yetisnowman]

The problem in the title game was the consistency of the officiating. I saw a ton of calls that could go either way go Wisconsin's favor also. The tipped ball call was atrocious, anyone can see that. But for the fans and Bo Ryan to BLAME the officials, it's silly. They all sound like pussies. Per usual the Badgers choked down the stretch in the tournament, just this time it was in the title game. They had two of Dukes best players on the bench in foul trouble for long stretches and couldn't capitalize. They weren't whistled for a foul the first 8.5 minutes of the game. They were up 9 with 13 minutes left and 12 minutes later they were down 8. Down 5 with 35 seconds left, they inexplicably danced around with the ball seemingly afraid to shoot for near 20 seconds. I've never in my life seen a team down by two scores with 30 seconds left waste that much time. Blame their offensive ineptitude, and their inability to contain Jones and Allen down the stretch for the loss. Losers make excuses, winners persevere. Same as it ever was. They had ample opportunity to win the title and they pissed it away.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I did not notice the calls against us so much as Decker taking a bad time to shit the bed, and nobody else stepping up. My biggest gripe is knowing I prolly won't see another chance like that in my lifetime.

[th87]

They can decide a game, and they can produce monumentally bad decisions. Duke wasn't happy with a 7-2 imbalance in calls in the first half. UW wasn't happy with the objectively wrong calls and 10-2 imbalance in the second half.

Its not rigged. You have to overcome it. Refs are like rebounds, they don't just fall into the team's lap by chance, evenly split. You have to work hard to make it break even.

You need to shoot well from 3. You need to touch the post. You need to shoot from the wide open wings (Gasser and Hayes). And you need to defend quick guards on ball screens better.

Any idea that modern sports can't be rigged should see the 2002 Lakers-Kings series as Exhibit A. That was the biggest sports travesty I've ever witnessed, and there was virtually no way that the Kings would overcome that, unless they somehow upped their FG% to 100. There was no hustling, or post-touches that could've overcome that.

Wisconsin's foul deficit was a rarity for a team that fouls among the least in the nation. And they also occurred in critical spots that allowed Duke to stay in the game. A 10-2 advantage is unheard-of, given Wisconsin's style of play. Yes, the Badgers could have executed better, but that wouldn't have somehow made the Duke ref advantage not exist.

[th87]

I will separate my comments between the Packers and the Badgers.

First, the Packers. Most, not all, playoff losses tend to be disappointing to the losing team. Teams are generally evenly matched and games tend to be close. Close losses are disappointing losses. When you have a team that makes the playoffs year after year after year there will be some disappointing losses along the way. For sure, some stand out, such as the final play losses. The Seattle game this past season was particularly excruciating because they seemed to have the game well in hand with only a few minutes left. How many Packer playoff wins have been "disappointing losses" for their opponents?

I am not enough of a Badger fan to discuss their disappointing losses because, to be honest, I don't remember them. With all due respect to the Badger fans on this site, since the Badgers started gaining success in football and basketball, many of their fans have become whiners. Regarding the basketball championship game, there were some poor calls, but officiating did not decide that game. Failed execution throughout the game more so than a bad call here and there decided that game. Instead of accepting that, Badger fans wanted the officials to call the game in a way that would favor the Badgers and help compensate for their failed execution. I watched the game with a group that included one Badger fan and five like myself who had an interest in the Badgers, would like to have seen a win, but were not fans. Most had varying degrees of contempt for Duke. Certainly, all in the group would have preferred to see a Badger win rather than another championship for Duke. Throughout the game comments were about the Badgers blowing opportunities and setting themselves up for a disappointing loss. There were not as many "bad calls" by the officials as many Badger fans seem to think, at least not in the perspective of a group that was basically impartial.

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

[th87]

I think PBs point--which I agree with--was that Badger fans are predisposed to notice bad calls that go against Wisco and to be blind to bad calls that favor our team. Arizona and KY fans were whining up a storm about how the officiating was slanted in favor of Wisconsin. Complaining about the refs is pointless for the team (beyond their control) and for the fans, who are unable to be reliable judges of what is good and what is bad officiating.

KY fans should be happy that Lyles didn't get ejected, let alone not being called for anything at all on the Gasser slap. AZ got to the line on virtually every possession in the second half on absurd calls. Had Dekker not gone nuts in that game, we'd be talking about that instead.

[th87]

The problem in the title game was the consistency of the officiating. I saw a ton of calls that could go either way go Wisconsin's favor also. The tipped ball call was atrocious, anyone can see that. But for the fans and Bo Ryan to BLAME the officials, it's silly. They all sound like pussies. Per usual the Badgers choked down the stretch in the tournament, just this time it was in the title game. They had two of Dukes best players on the bench in foul trouble for long stretches and couldn't capitalize. They weren't whistled for a foul the first 8.5 minutes of the game. They were up 9 with 13 minutes left and 12 minutes later they were down 8. Down 5 with 35 seconds left, they inexplicably danced around with the ball seemingly afraid to shoot for near 20 seconds. I've never in my life seen a team down by two scores with 30 seconds left waste that much time. Blame their offensive ineptitude, and their inability to contain Jones and Allen down the stretch for the loss. Losers make excuses, winners persevere. Same as it ever was. They had ample opportunity to win the title and they pissed it away.

They tried to capitalize by getting Winslow out of the game, and once Dukan was called for blocking when it was clearly a charge, and was also called for charging when it was clearly blocking on Winslow. You can't cliche yourself out of facts like that.

[pbmax]

Any idea that modern sports can't be rigged should see the 2002 Lakers-Kings series as Exhibit A. That was the biggest sports travesty I've ever witnessed, and there was virtually no way that the Kings would overcome that, unless they somehow upped their FG% to 100. There was no hustling, or post-touches that could've overcome that.

Wisconsin's foul deficit was a rarity for a team that fouls among the least in the nation. And they also occurred in critical spots that allowed Duke to stay in the game. A 10-2 advantage is unheard-of, given Wisconsin's style of play. Yes, the Badgers could have executed better, but that wouldn't have somehow made the Duke ref advantage not exist.

No one has made that claim.

[Bretsky]

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

GREAT POST

[pbmax]

The hand checking was annoying all tournament but they allowed it all tournament.

I have no idea what happened to last year's point of emphasis.

[Patler]

It wasn't just calls though - it was the way that Duke was being allowed to play all of a sudden. Their screens became wider and contained more elbows. They were allowed hand-checking and grabbing. Things like this will certainly affect execution. An extreme example of this is that if you tackled Kaminsky on every possession, you would prevent him from scoring. At that point, can you really make the argument that the Badgers didn't execute? Technically, you'd be right - Kaminsky could have prevented himself from being tackled, but that certainly wouldn't have told an objective story.

On the other hand, if he was tackled once on an attempted dunk and went 0 for 15 shooting otherwise while the Badgers lost by one, you might be technically correct to cite the failure to call the foul on the tackle as a reason for the loss, but that also would not have told an objective story.

The championship game was not called that badly. Things that were allowed in that game are allowed in many games. Especially in the second half, the officials called the game in a way that games are played very often, it just happened to be a type of game the Badgers don't play as well. The Badgers at times were struggling to keep up with the aggressiveness of Duke, and when that happens calls tend to go against you.

Dekker's off night from outside and numerous Badgers' failures to score in close and relatively uncontested were much more the cause of the loss than anything the officials did. Carelessness with the ball also plagued them at times. The Badgers didn't have to play an extreme game to win, just a good one.

[Bretsky]

I'm a bit curious how many times everyone has watched this game ? I went to it and then have watched it a couple times with replays. I've watched the second half more times than the first.
Duke got away with plenty in the first half as well. In reality the hand checking and bumping style of defense that they played through the whole game undoubtedly should have led to more fouls being called on Duke...in half one and two. They play a much rougher style of defense than Wisconsin. They don't let you cut without contact. The Badgers are not taught nor do they play defense that way. There is a reason they had the foul record they did the entire season. This second half was called completely different than there other 38 or so games.

Coach K just rided those buys for about ten minutes straight and at halftime and made them his bitch the second half. Kudos to Bobbby Coach K Knight....I give him credit. He owned them.

I'd love to watch the replay of this game with anybody who thinks this was remotely equitable, including the Duke Fans...and go play by play pointing out things. If I could get away with what they allowed Duke to do my teams wouldn't give up a lot of points either.

Every time I watch it again it gets worse.

[3irty1]

The Badgers couldn't buy a call in that second half but I have to agree with Patler that its not the main reason why they lost. Dekker playing at a high level is what got them there and he couldn't keep it up.

[pbmax]

The Badgers couldn't buy a call in that second half but I have to agree with Patler that its not the main reason why they lost. Dekker playing at a high level is what got them there and he couldn't keep it up.

Badger fans have seen Dekker's shot desert him before. But Hayes touch leaving him was a surprise, especially in close.

[Teamcheez1]

Looks like the Cryin' Ryan brigade is in full force. According to Bo (aka the Grinch) every foul by Wisco is questionable, and the other team commits crimes against humanity.

[Bretsky]

Always great to see the Anti WI Troll make an appearance and add nothing to some nice debate

[th87]

I really don't know why we even bother sometimes. Sports have looked inherently corrupt in the time I've been watching, starting with the Bucks getting straight boned in the 80s against the Celtics. There is a reason that the "marquee" teams (Duke, Lakers, Yankees) always seem to pull wins out of their asses. It's because when the game gets tight, the calls/non-calls become much more favorable for said marquee team. It's been most egregious with the Lakers - don't know if you remember the Portland series where the Lakers "came back" from 16 down. I've already mentioned the absurd Lakers-Kings series. So many times I've seen Duke on the ropes, and somehow, they make it happen. I'd say it's because of revenue, because if I'm an industry, why WOULDN'T I try to increase my revenue? And of course they'll get away with it, because how can you really prove there was malfeasance? You'll always have people defending the integrity of the sport, so no cover-up necessary.

A rabbit hole opened up when Tim Donaghy got caught, but no one went in. And of course David Stern managed to make that go away without any further investigation - Donaghy was considered a lone rogue.

Don't believe me - watch the comedy that will unfold when the Bucks play the Bulls on Saturday.

[mraynrand]

I really don't know why we even bother sometimes. Sports have looked inherently corrupt in the time I've been watching, starting with the Bucks getting straight boned in the 80s against the Celtics.

You mean like when they swept them in '83? F the Celtics. So they bought Dennis Johnson and the 76ers bought Moses Malone and won championships Bucks didn't do enough in the front office to win it all, but they were a blast to watch in the old Arena with the organ playing and the awesome crowds. Lanier, Moncrief, Johnson, Winters, Catchings, Cowens, Bridgeman. Loved that team. Great times.

[Bretsky]

I don't remember what year it was...but my college roommates mocked me for years as I recalled a game 7 versus the Celtics in Boston. Milwaukee had the ball with about 30 seconds left and a Bucks player drove into the lane and I perceived him to get hammered going up for a running shot. No foul was called. That was followed directly by a Celtic, I think Dennis Johnson, doing the same thing and drawing a chincy foul with seconds left in the game. Boston won and pretty sure they went on to play LA. I went into my back yard and threw the basketball off the backboard in anger. MY guess is that was around 32 years ago......I should really find out which game that was and watch the final minute to see if I perceive it the same.

I've never believed in the fix due to money but there is evidence out there.

[mraynrand]

I don't remember what year it was...but my college roommates mocked me for years as I recalled a game 7 versus the Celtics in Boston. Milwaukee had the ball with about 30 seconds left and a Bucks player drove into the lane and I perceived him to get hammered going up for a running shot. No foul was called. That was followed directly by a Celtic, I think Dennis Johnson, doing the same thing and drawing a chincy foul with seconds left in the game. Boston won and pretty sure they went on to play LA. I went into my back yard and threw the basketball off the backboard in anger. MY guess is that was around 32 years ago......I should really find out which game that was and watch the final minute to see if I perceive it the same.

I've never believed in the fix due to money but there is evidence out there.

I'm betting spring of '87. I remember the 'we believe' signs. Bucks came back from 3-1? deficit to force a game seven in Boston, and just couldn't get over the hump. Sikma was awesome with his three point set shots! Remember T. Cummings singing the National Anthem?

Remember Don Nelson throwing the chair in 122-121 loss in Philly?

Remember Nelson calling Ainge a cheap shot artist and Red Aurbach calling Nelson a whore?

Great times

[texaspackerbacker]

Bretsky, TH87, THANKS for telling it like it was and is! I've been saying stuff like this in person, in forums, etc. for years .... make that decades, and never before have I heard/read as straight forward and eloquent statements of truth on this topic from others.

[Bossman641]

Let's not forget Bucks-76ers in the EC finals in 2001

[HowardRoark]

The sky hook in game 6 of the 74 Finals in double overtime against Boston? I threw a basketball through the garage window that Sunday when they lost game 7.

[mraynrand]

Let's not forget Bucks-76ers in the EC finals in 2001

lets forget

[mraynrand]

The sky hook in game 6 of the 74 Finals in double overtime against Boston? I threw a basketball through the garage window that Sunday when they lost game 7.

I was 7 and don't remember that at all. I do remember having some guy threaten me and my friends with a shotgun when we were snooping around Lew Alcindor's old house off North Ave. (think it was around there).

[gbgary]

i don't feel cursed as a Packers fan. actually i think blessed is more like it. 2 relatively recent championships, constant playoff appearances, hall of fame qbs, historic past, historic personnel, historic venue, the best fans, etc. etc. etc. the window is still wide open. there are 24 or so cursed teams...the Packers aren't one of them.

[Pugger]

i don't feel cursed as a Packers fan. actually i think blessed is more like it. 2 relatively recent championships, constant playoff appearances, hall of fame qbs, historic past, historic personnel, historic venue, the best fans, etc. etc. etc. the window is still wide open. there are 24 or so cursed teams...the Packers aren't one of them.

This. All day long.

[Bossman641]

i don't feel cursed as a Packers fan. actually i think blessed is more like it. 2 relatively recent championships, constant playoff appearances, hall of fame qbs, historic past, historic personnel, historic venue, the best fans, etc. etc. etc. the window is still wide open. there are 24 or so cursed teams...the Packers aren't one of them.

I agree but if Rodgers doesn't get at least 1 more SB win before he retires I will be disappointed somewhat.

[RashanGary]

Why don't you just bend us all over and fuck us in the asses while you're at it

:-)

[Patler]

I agree but if Rodgers doesn't get at least 1 more SB win before he retires I will be disappointed somewhat.

Yup, just as I was disappointed with the single SB win with Favre at the helm. There were a number of golden opportunities that the Packers let slip through their hands with Favre, and I feel there has been one or two with Rodgers just since 2010. (I can't really decide how much of an opportunity they had in 2011, in spite of their record.)

[HowardRoark]

Yup, just as I was disappointed with the single SB win with Favre at the helm. There were a number of golden opportunities that the Packers let slip through their hands with Favre, and I feel there has been one or two with Rodgers just since 2010. (I can't really decide how much of an opportunity they had in 2011, in spite of their record.)

Should have done much better that post season; I still think it's the Butterfly Effect of an unfortunate situation of a kid drinking too much 50 miles down the road in OshKosh.

[Patler]

Should have done much better that post season; I still think it's the Butterfly Effect of an unfortunate situation of a kid drinking too much 50 miles down the road in OshKosh.

I agree, they should have done better and young Philbin's death had a profound impact. However, that team was seriously flawed, and when the offense cooled just a bit, they became a good but not great team overall. I can't decide how far i think they might have gone otherwise.

[mraynrand]

Should have done much better that post season; I still think it's the Butterfly Effect of an unfortunate situation of a kid drinking too much 50 miles down the road in OshKosh.

Jenning's injury versus Oakland.

[pbmax]

Jenning's injury versus Oakland.

You now, when you take the claim from curse and nefarious plot and whittle it down to "c'mon more than one SuperBowl per QB" its hard to maintain the sense of outrage this thread desires.

[Pugger]

This past season Rodgers calf injury did us in IMO. It was remarkable how well he did on basically one leg.

[Joemailman]

This past season Rodgers calf injury did us in IMO. It was remarkable how well he did on basically one leg.

I see Rodgers' injury in somewhat the same light as the calls that seemed to go against Wisconsin. I will always believe the Packers would have beaten Seattle if Rodgers had been healthy. However, I don't blame the loss on that because the Packers were still in a position to win the game anyway. Same thing with the Badgers. Even with some calls that went against them, they were in a position to win the game. It was their own failings that led to the loss, same as with the Packers.

[Bretsky]

You now, when you take the claim from curse and nefarious plot and whittle it down to "c'mon more than one SuperBowl per QB" its hard to maintain the sense of outrage this thread desires.

outrage is a strong word; you give me too much credit :)

I'm just getting my whip out trying to stir the pot just a bit to get some nice debate and arguments at a time when there is little going on in football

I should really make a topic like this at least once a week........or.........I wish somebody else would :)

Cheers

[esoxx]

Why so many disappointing playoff losses for our Green Bay Packers?
I realize that this is not life and death…it is a game. But starting to think we are whammied.

The NFC Championship Game was just another in a long line of disappointing playoff losses for the Packers. I count a total of eight games in the last 20 seasons. I understand that many NFL fans have not had the opportunity to witness even a handful of playoff games in that span, so I know we're fortunate as fans to see winning teams year after year. That does not change the fact that we have endured what I consider to be a disproportionate number of heartbreaking playoff losses.....key losses with some terrible circumstances to boot.

I decided to make a list of those games in this forum. I’m wondering what you think are the most disappointing losses, and why.

Here is my list, in chronological order:

1). 1995 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Dallas Cowboys 38-27. Packers had the ball and the lead in the fourth quarter. After a Favre interception, the Cowboys took control and never looked back. In retrospect the way GB lost was a foreshadowing of many gut wrenching heartbreakers with Favre at the helm

2). 1997 Season: Super Bowl. Lost to the Denver Broncos. Packers came in as almost 14-point favorites, struggled throughout, gave up a TD with under 2-minutes left and lost when Favre’s 4th down pass to Mark Chmura fell incomplete. The play of that game still might have been a terrible short pass on 3rd down before Denver took the lead for good.....receiver wide open....just a terrible short throw if I recall correctly.

3). 1998 Season: Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a T.D. pass from Steve Young to T.O. with just seconds remaining. The Pack took the lead on a Favre TD pass to Antonio Freeman with a few minutes left, and the 49ers marched down the field to score the game winner. Notable on the winning drive was the fumble by Jerry Rice that was missed by the officials. Shortly after was the pass that began to create the TO monster.

4). 2003 Season: Divisional Round. Lost in OT to the Eagles. 4th and 26. ‘Nuff said.

5). 2007 Season: NFC Championship Game. Lost in OT to the Giants at home. Pack wins the toss in OT and Favre throws an interception on the second play of OT. To magnify the disappointment, the end-zone view showed a receiving option (Levens) wide open and Favre threw the ball to Donald Driver, who was well-covered. Incidentally, that was Brett Favre’s last play in a Packer uniform.

6). 2009 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost in OT to the Arizona Cardinals on a strip sack that was returned for a TD. On the previous play, Greg Jennings was wide open and Rodgers overthrew an almost certain game-winning TD pass. On the game-ending play, Rodgers was hit in the helmet and also had his facemask grabbed. No penalty was called.

7). 2013 Season. Wild Card Round. Lost to the 49ers on a game-ending field goal as time expired. Packers played a very solid game, and defended the 49ers option read relatively well. On the game-winning drive, the Packers had a golden opportunity on an out route that was jumped by Micah Hyde. He had clear sailing to the end zone for a game-winning pick 6; he dropped it.

8). 2014 Season. NFC Championship Game. Lost to the Seahawks. We all witnessed this; no need for further commentary.

***********and let's not forget the FAIL MARY ***********regular season game

As Badger Fans we have recently witnessed

a successful Hail Mary vs Michigan State that was reviewed on replay and ended the game,
referees literally not allowing WI to snap the ball as time expired (of course they admitted air),

and in Basketball........when we had a chance to embrace our SHINING MOMENT......the one thing I've been asking for the past 25 years (A national title at UW Madison in either basketball or football before I die)...................

after I lean over and tell my daughters in the Dome At Indianapolis with just over 13 minutes left when we are up by 9 points......"in thirteen minutes we can be the national champions"

I witness the most epic meltdown in officiating I can recall in college basketball that included

1. A blatant charge by Winslow resulting in a foul on Dukon (-2points)
2. Winslow stepping on the out of bounce line and on that possession here comes a 3 (-3 pts)
3. An Obvious FLOP the refs fell for and called a charge on Dukon
4. A replay clearly showing the ball off Duke and they keep possession and hit a 3 (-3pts)
5. Another charge by Winslow against Hayes where nothing was called
6, Constant Duke No Calls on consistent bumping and hard reaching in calls....see the offensive possession where UW times out for a shot and Frank just tossed it at the hoop as an example.......
7 Not to mention in the 2nd half, after witnessing Coach K scream and yell at the refs at the end of the second half and halftime, they decided to plan there lips on his ass and change the way they officiated from half 1 to half2

Coupled with Decker not showing up, Bo making a couple terrible substitutions at the wrong time, and Jackson being completely lost in the second half.............

All of that together made the game unwinnable....................

It felt like the Seattle game............but the Referees were our Special Teams Unit..........




ARE WE CURSED ????? Have I missed anything ?

You forgot the hose job in the desert against Arizona State in football. Badgers are cursed.

[texaspackerbacker]

No disagreement with any of that; In fact, I'm really glad to see people pointing it out.

HOWEVER, Cursed ain't the correct word - because in spite of all that horrific shit with officiating, we have been BLESSED - not Cursed - as Packer and Badger Fans with pretty much a whole generation of GREATNESS.

[Pugger]

I see Rodgers' injury in somewhat the same light as the calls that seemed to go against Wisconsin. I will always believe the Packers would have beaten Seattle if Rodgers had been healthy. However, I don't blame the loss on that because the Packers were still in a position to win the game anyway. Same thing with the Badgers. Even with some calls that went against them, they were in a position to win the game. It was their own failings that led to the loss, same as with the Packers.

If Rodgers was 100% I truly believe we would have scored TDs on half of those turnovers in the first half and not FGs and our lead could have been insurmountable for Seattle to overcome.

I do agree - had the Badgers not shot the ball so poorly against Duke they would have won that ball game too.

[Pugger]

You forgot the hose job in the desert against Arizona State in football. Badgers are cursed.

Bretsky also forgot the home playoff losses to the Falcons and the Gmen in 2011/12. :cry:

[mraynrand]

I always felt like the Packers were cursed with excessive injuries, but I'm pretty sure that's due to my own extreme myopia.

[pbmax]

I always felt like the Packers were cursed with excessive injuries, but I'm pretty sure that's due to my own extreme myopia.

I am reasonably certain, though its early and the sample size of a single season is small, that many of the fatigue injuries were self-inflicted.

It might not be a coincidence that updating nutrition, practice and schedules to something more consistent with current knowledge coincided with a very healthy year.

Now we just need M3 to update his planning on high-leverage scoring situations and they will be unstoppable.

[mraynrand]

^^^ All that may be true, but did the Packers really have overall more injuries over the past 12 years than other teams? That's the issue, and since I don't have the patience to do a thorough run-down of the league, I am assuming I think it's higher due to familiarity with the team. But, as more teams figure out "fatigue" and other factors, they will all adjust and everything will prob. even out again (except for the Browns, because, they are the Browns).