Commissioner Hairbrain Is Stuck in Mess of Own Making

[pbmax]

Any chance he has begun to think that Tagliabue had it right 4 years ago?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/22/settlement-talks-have-occurred-in-brady-case/


Per the source, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is being pushed by a small handful of influential owners to hold firm on the four-game suspension. Working against that pressure, however, is the fear that the four-game suspension would be wiped out by a federal court.

Attorney Gregg Levy, who was one of the finalists for the job Goodell received in 2006, participated in the Brady appeal hearing as a legal consultant to the Commissioner. It’s believed that Levy has been warning Goodell that it will be difficult to make a suspension stick in court, even under the heightened standard that applies to challenging the outcome of a private arbitration agreement.

So while there’s still no good way out of this mess for Goodell, the safest course for him personally would be to hold firm and to force a court to reduce the suspension — since Goodell suffers little or no P.R. consequence when one of his disciplinary decisions is reduced or wiped out by someone else.

[Pugger]

From what I understand isn't the suspension more for Brady not cooperating and not being completely forthcoming in the investigation rather than the psi of those footballs? Wouldn't Brady's attorneys have to prove Goodell overstepped his bounds according to the CBA to get any suspension overturned?

[pbmax]

From what I understand isn't the suspension more for Brady not cooperating and not being completely forthcoming in the investigation rather than the psi of those footballs? Wouldn't Brady's attorneys have to prove Goodell overstepped his bounds according to the CBA to get any suspension overturned?

Well that is one of the wonderfully, completely undefined elements of Roger's action. Some piece of it is about cooperation. Some part of it is about the evidence of his knowledge of tampering.

But Brady will simply claim the team had all the info it needed from the two Patriot employee phones and no other communication occurred.

[Pugger]

If memory serves Wells asked Brady to have his lawyers check his phone and submit any communication concerning 'deflategate' but Brady basically refused. After this I'm not surprised Goodell isn't taking Brady's word for it that no other communication occurred. As long as Goodell followed the CBA protocol here I don't know what legal leg Brady has to stand on. But other players have had their suspensions reduced or rescinded in the past so who knows?

[King Friday]

I really don't see how Tom Brady and Greg Hardy could possibly serve the same suspension. That ultimately is the massive roadblock weighing on the mind of Goodell. I think Goodell wants to maintain the 4 games on Brady, because he looks like a major buffoon otherwise...but the reduction to Hardy's suspension is going to make people go absolutely nuts if they both have the same length when this is all said and done.

[Guiness]

I really don't see how Tom Brady and Greg Hardy could possibly serve the same suspension. That ultimately is the massive roadblock weighing on the mind of Goodell. I think Goodell wants to maintain the 4 games on Brady, because he looks like a major buffoon otherwise...but the reduction to Hardy's suspension is going to make people go absolutely nuts if they both have the same length when this is all said and done.

The league/commissioner wouldn't have this problem if they took a reasonable stance on being on the commissioner's special list as being 'time served'. Then they could say Hardy already served 15 games and is getting 4 more.

[pbmax]

I am not sure he intended this to be the way it works (as PFT seems to think in each of these cases) but Commish has become the maximalist in this situation. Always trying to push the envelope toward greater and greater sanctions.

If he was David Stern and scared everyone with his vocabulary (palaver) and beard

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0628/nba_g_stern11_576.jpg

then it might work. But Stern was also a master coalition builder and resistance buster inside the owners' group (and definitely the players association) so he could bulldoze resistance as he created rules on the fly.

The NFL is much more staid and resistant to that kind of bullying leadership.

[Rastak]

The league/commissioner wouldn't have this problem if they took a reasonable stance on being on the commissioner's special list as being 'time served'. Then they could say Hardy already served 15 games and is getting 4 more.


Don't even get me started. That list that was created in the 70's but never used for this purpose until Adolph Godell decided it was a punishment free "make it go away" zone. Call it what it fucking is, you are suspended with pay. In most businesses that is indeed a free vacation. But in this business you have a limited shelf life so you have to be producing and putting it on tape all the time or your dollars tangibly start drying up. It is absolutely a punishment. What is the saying? Fines don't matter, when you take away playing time you get their attention.

[pbmax]

Don't even get me started. That list that was created in the 70's but never used for this purpose until Adolph Godell decided it was a punishment free "make it go away" zone. Call it what it fucking is, you are suspended with pay. In most businesses that is indeed a free vacation. But in this business you have a limited shelf life so you have to be producing and putting it on tape all the time or your dollars tangibly start drying up. It is absolutely a punishment. What is the saying? Fines don't matter, when you take away playing time you get their attention.

And it was amateur hour when the NFLPA didn't get a guarantee that the list would count as time served when they agreed to the new use of it in the first place.

[Rastak]

And it was amateur hour when the NFLPA didn't get a guarantee that the list would count as time served when they agreed to the new use of it in the first place.

Hey PB, when was it even discussed with the NFLPA? You might be referring to back channel discussions when then the Peterson thing hit. If so, the NFLPA fucked it up bad.

[Rastak]

Look, I'm not a big fan of what Greg Hardy did but to put that dude on a 16 game paid suspension while they fucked around? I mean, really? NFL needs to figure this shit out for good.

[pbmax]

Hey PB, when was it even discussed with the NFLPA? You might be referring to back channel discussions when then the Peterson thing hit. If so, the NFLPA fucked it up bad.

I know they were involved in the discussions. Whether they could have stopped it or not, I am unsure. But the issue was not raised by them at the time that I remember.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/17/petersons-agent-this-is-the-best-possible-outcome-given-the-circumstances/

[King Friday]

Don't even get me started. That list that was created in the 70's but never used for this purpose until Adolph Godell decided it was a punishment free "make it go away" zone. Call it what it fucking is, you are suspended with pay. In most businesses that is indeed a free vacation. But in this business you have a limited shelf life so you have to be producing and putting it on tape all the time or your dollars tangibly start drying up. It is absolutely a punishment. What is the saying? Fines don't matter, when you take away playing time you get their attention.

To someone like Hardy, it isn't a punishment though...more of an inconvenience only. Despite all the time off and the threat of a significant suspension hanging over him, he STILL signed a 1 year, $11-13M deal. He's probably laughing about how he smacks women around and gets away with it. It is a joke. God forbid you get involved in dog fighting...expect prison time and years out of the league. Smack a woman with a hand that is rightfully a deadly weapon...and the league simply hopes to give you a free vacation long enough for the whole deal to "blow over".

[pbmax]

To someone like Hardy, it isn't a punishment though...more of an inconvenience only. Despite all the time off and the threat of a significant suspension hanging over him, he STILL signed a 1 year, $11-13M deal. He's probably laughing about how he smacks women around and gets away with it. It is a joke. God forbid you get involved in dog fighting...expect prison time and years out of the league. Smack a woman with a hand that is rightfully a deadly weapon...and the league simply hopes to give you a free vacation long enough for the whole deal to "blow over".

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/incoming/article10422650.html

Without the a conviction (the jury trial he requested caused the charges to be dismissed) you are left with transcripts prepared by the defense and her original statement to police, which the article hints might have contained discrepancies.

So even if the testimony was the complete truth, the extreme nature of his attack cannot be accepted at face value based on available evidence. The NFL is left with a player who has embarrassed them and his team, got into an altercation with a women serious enough for the police to be called. But its unclear any suspension based the specific details of the night would stand. Hardy might still be contesting this in Court.

What I don't remember is whether there was physical evidence. Did she need to be treated for injuries?

[Guiness]

To someone like Hardy, it isn't a punishment though...more of an inconvenience only. Despite all the time off and the threat of a significant suspension hanging over him, he STILL signed a 1 year, $11-13M deal. He's probably laughing about how he smacks women around and gets away with it. It is a joke. God forbid you get involved in dog fighting...expect prison time and years out of the league. Smack a woman with a hand that is rightfully a deadly weapon...and the league simply hopes to give you a free vacation long enough for the whole deal to "blow over".

Considering the criminal charges didn't stick, the NFL was pushing things suspending him as long as they did. The charges were dropped, weren't they? I know it was a pretty fishy outcome in the courts, but that was the outcome.

How did the league sort it out with the teams re: cap space? I know the players get paid, but in the cases of Peterson and Hardy, do the teams end up with franchise tag level dead money against their cap?

[pbmax]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/26/owner-lobbying-undermines-independence-of-goodell-in-brady-appeal/

Its like Roger doesn't have a law degree. Hiring from within was a bad idea in this case.

[King Friday]

Considering the criminal charges didn't stick, the NFL was pushing things suspending him as long as they did. The charges were dropped, weren't they? I know it was a pretty fishy outcome in the courts, but that was the outcome.

Charges were dropped because Hardy paid off the person he violently abused. Without someone willing to bring up charges of abuse, you can't possibly bring someone to trial in a court...unless the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

However, the NFL is a business entity...not a courtroom. Subway fired Jared Fogle VERY quickly at the first sign of trouble with kiddie porn, when there is no guarantee he will ever be brought up on any charges in a courtroom. Granted, you have the NFLPA to deal with in the NFL's case...but ultimately I don't think they really want to be standing up for a woman beater either. Like with the Vick saga...it would be easy for the NFL to get public opinion on their side and roll right over the NFLPA if they really wanted to. However, it is clear that Goodell doesn't give a shit about women...only deflated footballs.

We all know what Greg Hardy did. Period. The NFL should take a stand and kick him out of the league for good. Otherwise, women will just keep getting beat up by NFL players, NCAA players, whoever...because they just keep getting away with it and only receive minor inconveniences as a result.

[pbmax]

I agree. And while I believe that in an At Will employment situation the employer should be free to fire someone who is causing them public grief, the NFL needs to have a CBA to protect again claims of unfair competition.

That CBA needs, like any law or contract (likely what Jared had), those rules need to be enforced consistently. This is where ol' Rog has gotten himself in trouble.

We don't know for a fact that the women involved was paid (she told prosecutors that she did not want to go through a trial and publicity again) despite the circumstantial evidence. And without that testimony to the egregious nature of the attack (threatening with guns, having a third party involved) its hard to escalate it beyond a typical domestic violence attack. But even if they had enough to convince themselves and the public more had to be done, they literally changed the rules for suspension over domestic violence after Hardy's arrest and charges. Ex post facto.

No court or arbitrator will let that stand.

Roger is in this position because he thinks he can instantly change the system, but its become obvious he cannot. Rather than be measured, careful and deliberate, he acts by dramatic pronouncement and press release. He makes the situation worse by trying to punish Hardy more, when he could do much more good by fixing to Policy first to actually deter more episodes in the future.

If the system worked and was not constantly under assault because its not internally consistent (and because its not perceived as fair by the people it governs), it might stand to do some good. More good than punishing Hardy further.

[pbmax]

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 11h11 hours ago
Owner lobbying undermines Goodell's independence in Brady appeal, creates another issue for the inevitable lawsuit http://wp.me/p14QSB-9OjH

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk 45m45 minutes ago
Ravens owner denies "pressuring" Roger Goodell on #DeflateGate

Joe Banner ‏@JoeBanner13 24m24 minutes ago
I don't think those familiar with NFL league office operation could picture an owner pressing Goodell for a particular ruling on deflate gate

mike freeman ‏@mikefreemanNFL 27m27 minutes ago
If you believe owners aren't pressuring Goodell to come down hard on Patriots, well, you're a sucker. Of course they are. Most of them are.

[King Friday]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/incoming/article10422650.htmlWhat I don't remember is whether there was physical evidence. Did she need to be treated for injuries?

There are PHOTOGRAPHS Max. The woman herself gave an account UNDER OATH. A district attorney got to see all of the evidence, and saw fit to bring charges of domestic violence. A judge CONVICTED him of the crime. Clearly, there is a significant amount of "evidence" pointing to the fact that Greg Hardy is a thug...just not enough to move forward with if the accuser is paid off and conveniently goes missing.

Seriously Max...this is way more than just something serious enough for "the police to be called". So was the Ray Rice incident. Both times, the NFL barely levied ANY punishment on the offenders despite knowing full well what happened (for the most part) in both cases.

[pbmax]

There are PHOTOGRAPHS Max. The woman herself gave an account UNDER OATH. A district attorney got to see all of the evidence, and saw fit to bring charges of domestic violence. A judge CONVICTED him of the crime. Clearly, there is a significant amount of "evidence" pointing to the fact that Greg Hardy is a thug...just not enough to move forward with if the accuser is paid off and conveniently goes missing.

Seriously Max...this is way more than just something serious enough for "the police to be called". So was the Ray Rice incident. Both times, the NFL barely levied ANY punishment on the offenders despite knowing full well what happened (for the most part) in both cases.

I am not making the case that the NFL has responded correctly to either Rice or Hardy. But both happened before the revised policy was issued. But the Rice case had video of the punch.

Second, if there are photographs, I have not seen them. Thought I made that plain. A link would be helpful. Did she require treatment for injuries as well?

Lastly, the police were called, she did give a statement and she testified at the trial by judge. But there are signs that there may be inconsistencies between the two accounts and she is not willing to help. This doesn't mean that Hardy is suddenly wonderful, but there is not enough that the prosecutors feel they can win a new trial with a jury. The best the NFL could have done under the old policy was something was 2 games. They got four plus the exempt list season. For a bad policy to produce anything close to that is a muted win.

Its possible even that won't stand in court. But no player or team employee can see that as a victory for the abuser and a free hand.

[Pugger]

As heinous as these acts by these thugs against women I don't know if we can compare these to Brady's case. The question of deflategate involves activity surrounding/affecting the game while these other are off the field transgressions.

What is silly and sad about it all is if indeed Brady 'encouraged' those guys to deflate the balls under the psi recommended by the league the max fine for that is $25,000 - which is pocket change for a guy like TB. If Brady would have said "yeah, the air pressure in those balls could have been under the league limit but I didn't think it was a big deal" then paid the $25K it would have been forgotten within a week and his reputation would be intact. But because he refused to cooperate with the investigation and wasn't completely forthcoming Goodell slapped him with the suspension and most folks outside of the New England area now think he's a cheat. smh

[Rastak]

As heinous as these acts by these thugs against women I don't know if we can compare these to Brady's case. The question of deflategate involves activity surrounding/affecting the game while these other are off the field transgressions.

What is silly and sad about it all is if indeed Brady 'encouraged' those guys to deflate the balls under the psi recommended by the league the max fine for that is $25,000 - which is pocket change for a guy like TB. If Brady would have said "yeah, the air pressure in those balls could have been under the league limit but I didn't think it was a big deal" then paid the $25K it would have been forgotten within a week and his reputation would be intact. But because he refused to cooperate with the investigation and wasn't completely forthcoming Goodell slapped him with the suspension and most folks outside of the New England area now think he's a cheat. smh


Thing is Pug, I don't recall the names but a couple of retired players said it was something "everyone" did. But regardless, the footballs they measured from both the Colts and the Pats were down from what they started with. I'm no fan of the Patriots, but other than those two nitwits texting and mr dummy hitting the can near the field there really isn't alot of evidence. There is really no direct evidence.

I agree with you it didn't seem like Brady cooperated but with Benito Mussolini-Goodell, I'm sure the dude wasn't gonna say shit period because you don't need evidence for this guy to slam down the hammer.

[Pugger]

Thing is Pug, I don't recall the names but a couple of retired players said it was something "everyone" did. But regardless, the footballs they measured from both the Colts and the Pats were down from what they started with. I'm no fan of the Patriots, but other than those two nitwits texting and mr dummy hitting the can near the field there really isn't alot of evidence. There is really no direct evidence.

I agree with you it didn't seem like Brady cooperated but with Benito Mussolini-Goodell, I'm sure the dude wasn't gonna say shit period because you don't need evidence for this guy to slam down the hammer.

They didn't need hard evidence to declare Brady 'more likely than not' was compliant in deflating those balls but IMO the main reason why Goodell slammed the hammer down on Brady was for not cooperating fully in the investigation. I suspect Goodell will announce in the next couple of days the suspension will be reduced to 2 games and it will be up to Brady and his lawyers if they want to pursue this in court.