THE PACKERS OFFENSIVE LINE --- BAFFLING

[Bretsky]

A few, like Harlan have referred to this in here. But I'd just like to say to Ted Thompson...as Vince use to say, "WHAT the hell is going on in here ?"

We had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL last year

We lost our starting Center, who was a bit above average "when" healthy.

We may have a decent backup Center who didn't fair that well at Guard

We had a rotating guard pool last year that was nothing short of pathetic

We had a fifth round draft pick at OG not good enough to get on the field

And we had another practice squad rookie (like Herrion) who's being hyped

Say it ain't so, TT, PLEASE don't tell me we this is what we're taking to training camp next year to find three new starters.

TT apologists thrive on saying "Show me players" that Green Bay could have signed that would have immediately helped our football team ?

To them, I say, LOOK AT THE INTERIOR OF OUR OFFENSIVE LINE NOW, AND START FORMING THE LONG LIST.

From the start of free agency, it should have been the goal of Ted Thompson to shore up the talent on both the offense and defense. Doing that starts with the offensive line. :roll: And there were PLENTY of OG's who are heads and heels above Will Whittaker, Julius Coston, Scott Wells, Adrian Klemm, and the other yahoos we have competing for postions on the interior line.

THREE open positions. Come on TT, at bare minimum we should have been looking for two starters. We had the money. We didn't have to break any banks for this. But then let Wells, Coston, White, Whittaker and sub par company fight it out for the last spot.

Are we seriously taking this group, and maybe a rookie, into 2006 ?

Inexcusable

[Bretsky]

BLOG FROM PRO FOOTBALL WEEKLY

Packers legend waiting for a sign(ing) to return
By Chris Neubauer (cneubauer@pfwmedia.com)
April 14, 2006





The Packers are reportedly interested in signing ex-Redskins LB LaVar Arrington.

Excuse me, I have a question.

Mr. Arrington, can you play center?

The Packers are also reportedly interested in signing former Heisman Trophy winner Charles Woodson, a cornerback who's being projected as a safety in the not-so-near-future.

Mr. Woodson, you played a few snaps on offense in college with the Wolverines any interest in returning to Brett Favre’s side of the field to play some wideout?

The future Hall of Fame signalcaller has repeatedly said in the past few months that he wants the Packers to improve (read: spend some money on some QUALITY free agents) before he will commit to returning to Lambeau Field in 2006. If he doesn’t see ample improvement, Favre has stated that he will retire.

But spending their $19 million of cap room to sign Arrington and Woodson won’t cure the Packers’ biggest weakness. And, more importantly, neither acquisition would bring Favre back.

The Packers need help on the O-line after losing OLG Mike Wahle (Panthers) and ORG Marco Rivera (Cowboys) in free agency last season and C Mike Flanagan (Texans) this year.

The Packers could use another receiver or two, especially if WR Javon Walker follows through on his threat to stand on the sideline and cry like Adam Morrison until he gets traded.

Woodson is a cornerback or free safety — that’s where the Bucs, the other finalist for Woodson’s services want to play him.

Arrington is a linebacker.

Can you blame Favre for not wanting to come back?

Not after the beating he endured last season.

Favre was sacked 24 times, had the 31st-best passer rating (70.9) and didn’t throw a touchdown pass in the entire month of December. His Packers lost 12 games.

At a charity golf tournament in Mississippi last weekend, Favre held a press conference to announce that he was still undecided about his return. Whispers became chatter as everyone suddenly had an opinion about Favre’s decision and they all said that he’s taking too long to make up his mind.

Take your time, Brett. You deserve it. You earned it.

[MJZiggy]

I don't think we're taking this group. Didn't M3 just last week say that we're by no means finished with player acquisition? That finding talent is a 12-month-a-year job? I'm praying he means guards. Then again, I'm intrigued by what Jags might do.

[Bretsky]

I don't think we're taking this group. Didn't M3 just last week say that we're by no means finished with player acquisition? That finding talent is a 12-month-a-year job? I'm praying he means guards. Then again, I'm intrigued by what Jags might do.

I've been watching lineman after lineman go and LB after LB go off the free agency boards. I don't think there is crap left to choose from at C or OG.
And it would surprise me if quality shows up as a June salary cut.

[esoxx]

Good thread B. What puzzles me is TT flat out admitted that if he had one regret last year it was the guard situation. We can debate until we're blue in the face about whether Wahle could have been signed (he should have been of course), but the replacements were all on TT. So, what has he done to remedy this glaring oversight......Yeah.

Whitticker is a dead man walking in this scheme so he's out. Big and clumsy is not idea here in zone blocking. Klemm is a T this year, thank god. There are green draft picks and street FA's from last year, is that the plan???

So, we are left with trust. Trust TT that he has a master plan for this line. Yes, three interior line spots and not a front runner in the bunch. Street FA's and draft picks for these crucial positions? I guess so. Remember the key word: Trust.

If I'm Favre I hang them up rather than trust this piece of crap line in the making. It's suicide.

[Fritz]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.

[Bretsky]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.


FRITZ,

It's possible the Packers can find two OL at a gas station like they found Roell Preston. Do you want names of guy who would immediately help them ? Notice I say help them, not save them. But it's about improvement, and we have seen none yet.

B

[Bretsky]

Where's the names, Bretsky? Did you mean Barry Stokes? Or were you talking about LeCharles Bentley, whose contract was way out of line with his production?

Steve Hutchinson? Yes, a fantastic player, but did you want a guy to come in at the guard position and become the highest-paid offensive lineman on your team?

Is it possible that out of the group of four - Coston, Whitticker, Wells, White - that two of them might in fact be legitimate NFL players this year? Most offensive lineman - with the exception of Tauscher - don't just step in and play well right away. Marco Rivera didn't. Mike Wahle didn't.

HERE YA GO

C
Justin Hartwig
Kevin Mawae
Seth McKinnie
Trey Teague


NOTE; All three are similar players to Flanagen. There are several others better than Wells who have signed as well.

OG
Stephen Neal
Andre Gurode
Vince Manuwai
Sean Mahan
Jonathon Goodwin
Derrick Dockery
Larry Allen (nice fill in while the other guys fight it out)
Jason Whittle

NOTE: None of these guys are expensive superstars, but all would do well in a competition against Adrian Klemm, Whittaker, Coston, Wells, and White. And there are plenty more better than the fellows above.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Larry Allen (nice fill in while the other guys fight it out)


I see Larry Allen on ESPN-CLassic football games. Pat Summerall and Curt Gowdy are the announcers.

[Fritz]

Brets, we definitely have different philosophies - you're on the Shore Patrol and I'm not there with this team. I see that you're trying to get Favre some help for the right now, but in my estimation this would only retard the development of the young guys and would end up with the Packers treading water, like in an 8-8 record.

I respect your opinion - as always - but would like to see the Packers develop the youngsters so that in two years this team is back in the playoffs, not as a band-aided bunch of oldsters huffing their way to a first-round playoff loss, but as an up-and-coming team headed for the Super Bowl.

[Bretsky]

Brets, we definitely have different philosophies - you're on the Shore Patrol and I'm not there with this team. I see that you're trying to get Favre some help for the right now, but in my estimation this would only retard the development of the young guys and would end up with the Packers treading water, like in an 8-8 record.

I respect your opinion - as always - but would like to see the Packers develop the youngsters so that in two years this team is back in the playoffs, not as a band-aided bunch of oldsters huffing their way to a first-round playoff loss, but as an up-and-coming team headed for the Super Bowl.

Thanks Fritz; we have to agree to disagree since I'm still in denial about rebuilding mode. Now once I hear Favre retire, then I'd fall closer to your views. But also, I don't see potential in guys like Coston and White and Whittaker until they show me something. Maybe they will soon, but I won't trust them til I do and since I want to win now I want more changes.

To me, before the offseason the best case scenario was for TT to aggressively go into free agency to shore the team up, have two good drafts, and I thought we could be contenders the year after this next one if Favre would give us two more years. Let him go out on top like Elway. But again, as you noted, that's the shore patrol, and rebuilding denial, speaking.

[Fritz]

Of course too I have to admit that it could be fantastical thinking to imagine that Coston and Whitticker will become the next Wahle and Rivera.

Ultimately it's probably more important though that A-Rod does not become the next Rich Campbell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Neither Wahle nor Rivera were world beaters as rookies.

[ND72]

I don't know if it's on here, but i'm a ND guy....if we can get some extra picks....JEFF FAINE...PLEASE!!! i'm sorry, i absolutely love the guy. I used some Notre DAme game film of his to use in my offensive line meetings and coaching clinics. the guy is nasty, and can be amazingly good, especially in a zone blocking offense. ted needs to pull the string.

[retailguy]

Bretsky,

The Packer OL is going to be improved this year by adding NO ONE.

You really just need to trust Thompson. He tanked the OL knowing that then he could tank Sherman.

Now that we don't need guards that can "pull", the guys we've got will be just fine. I'm not worried about the OL, regardless of who plays QB.

I think the "system" that they are installing will cover the poor play or athleticism of the guards that they plug in. Atlanta's OL is proof of that. Bunch of no name lunch pail guys and they outshined half of the "true studs" in this league. It'll work for another couple of years until defenses catch up with it. It is the new "trendy" thing.

The biggest problem with GB this year will be the rookie head coach and staff. It'll look a lot like the Detroit game from last year early in the year. They need time to "jell" and they won't do it in 4 preseason games.

By the end of the season, if the "scheme" works they should be playing pretty good football. If the "scheme" doesn't work, we'll know we're in for a few more years of 4-12.

[ND72]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.

[retailguy]

just make sure the guys can pass protect. i know our tackles can, i'm pretty sure if wells is at center he's fine. but you are right, run blocking will improve, or should improve.


Agreed, but I don't believe pass protection was the REAL problem last year. I think the real problems stemmed from the inability to run. Sherman's whole offense centered around the ability to run. When we lost that, it "negated" the 8th man in the box, which limited passing options, which caused it to appear as if pass blocking was suspect. I don't believe it was. There just wasn't anyone open after the WR corps was decimated and the 8th guy didn't need to play in the box.

[ND72]

very good point. when there is no threat to run, then the pass rush comes harder, and less guys are up near the line of scrimmage.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky,

The Packer OL is going to be improved this year by adding NO ONE.

You really just need to trust Thompson. He tanked the OL knowing that then he could tank Sherman.

Now that we don't need guards that can "pull", the guys we've got will be just fine. I'm not worried about the OL, regardless of who plays QB.

I think the "system" that they are installing will cover the poor play or athleticism of the guards that they plug in. Atlanta's OL is proof of that. Bunch of no name lunch pail guys and they outshined half of the "true studs" in this league. It'll work for another couple of years until defenses catch up with it. It is the new "trendy" thing.

The biggest problem with GB this year will be the rookie head coach and staff. It'll look a lot like the Detroit game from last year early in the year. They need time to "jell" and they won't do it in 4 preseason games.

By the end of the season, if the "scheme" works they should be playing pretty good football. If the "scheme" doesn't work, we'll know we're in for a few more years of 4-12.

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

[retailguy]

Me thinks your avatar is spilling too much Kool Aide into your brain.

This interior OL group is devoid of talent. I'll drink the Scott Wells Kool Aide and figure he'll be "OK" at C. But I trusted TT last year with O'Dwyer and Klemm. And Freeman and Little. Yes, I know all cheap FA's and he didn't have a ton of $$. But his pickings have failed so far and he hasn't given me reason to blindly put my trust in him when he is ready to rely on competition between a couple total failurer is 2005 (Whittaker and Klemm) and two guys who were not even developed enough to be given a chance to replace those failures (White and Coston) and didn't even dress on gameday.

Even with the best of schemes, you still need players talented enough to execute it.

Not, the kool-aid but the cases of Diet Peach Snapple probably don't help. :smile:

Bretsky, O'dwyer and Klemm are both immensely talented, they just can't pull very well. Klemm was pursued by NE. They wanted to keep him. O'dwyer is over the hill, granted, but still OK, you just cannot expect him to be able to be athletic at 35. They're good players, but were HORRIBLE choices for the scheme that Sherman ran. That doesn't make them bad football players, just mis-cast.

Coston and White are too raw, but Barry and Klemm (if they move him again) will do fine with the "team blocking" concept. Flanagan would've done well with this system as well, his line calls, and needing to watch "both guards" as he did last year would be unnecessary. Most of the time on early downs, it'll be 5 guys blocking 4. Somebody will almost always be team blocking. If they blitz, Favre will pick them apart. If they don't blitz, one cut, green finds a hole and he's in the secondary.

The great thing about this scheme is that you don't need the cream of the crop. I disagree with you about the talent level, I actually think its fine for what they're doing, but even if you're right and the talent level is depleted, the scheme should help mask that. Where the problems come in, is if the players cannot execute the scheme.

I firmly believe that the OL is critically important, thats one of the reasons that I did like sherman, as he understood that. However, I also know that this scheme depends on task, not on talent.

Bretsky, I think you are worried about the talent level related to last years scheme. I believe if you look at this years scheme, the talent worries really do disappear....

[Bretsky]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

[retailguy]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman. Perhaps you should be glad I'm not Ted Thompson.... :wink:

Bretsky, I believe in the system. I really do. I don't know if it is going to get implemented quickly, but if it does, I think we'll be OK. You do realize that Coston or White will start this year, don't you? TT's guys are going to get the opportunity to play.... It is going to happen. Wells will be OK at center, and Tauch and Clifton will be solid. If the zone blocking thing works, then any mistakes should be able to be masked by those three. Don't forget about Franks, who is a very solid blocker himself. Also, Kevin Barry is a big man who can play as well.

At this point, I don't disagree with the inaction on the line. And I do believe the conspiracy about getting rid of Sherman. That was planned, long ago...

[Tarlam!]

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman.


Actually, he did, didn't he? He just rolled over on the deal....

[Tarlam!]

The thing I am concerned about with the zone is the ability to create and uphold the pocket, while at the same time, creating a seam for a runner. Ahmad needs seams to go through the middle, and he nees to see them. Gado, is just too raw to know what to even look for.

Sherm screwed up in the pull-scheme with his guards last year and Beightol shoulda told him the guards were a mis-match. Eventually they seemed to grow into it; I offer Gado's 100 yarders as proof, since he ran behind the same line as Green, only later in the season.

Sherm also relied on the U 71, one year too long. It was truly pathetic. Everytime he ran on the field, I knew we'd get killed in the formation and we did. And I know nothing about the finer points.

[Bretsky]

After that explanation, Retailguy, I must ask.

Are you Ted Thompson ?

Regarding your last statement....I'm worried about the talent because it is no better than last years. Maybe the scheme will hide how poor it is, but we have the same players minus a starter on what was a terrible group collectively last year. That's my worry.

If I were Ted Thompson, I'd have extended Mike Sherman. Perhaps you should be glad I'm not Ted Thompson.... :wink:

Bretsky, I believe in the system. I really do. I don't know if it is going to get implemented quickly, but if it does, I think we'll be OK. You do realize that Coston or White will start this year, don't you? TT's guys are going to get the opportunity to play.... It is going to happen. Wells will be OK at center, and Tauch and Clifton will be solid. If the zone blocking thing works, then any mistakes should be able to be masked by those three. Don't forget about Franks, who is a very solid blocker himself. Also, Kevin Barry is a big man who can play as well.

At this point, I don't disagree with the inaction on the line. And I do believe the conspiracy about getting rid of Sherman. That was planned, long ago...

OF COURSE I realize Coston or White will start ? There in lies my greatest criticism of TT; he'll settle for that. And the real reason we know one of them we'll start is there is no competition amongst NFL caliber starters there. That's why I'm so upset at TT for not getting us players at OG and LB. We'll surely have some guys on the field that don't yet belong there.

And I'm not saying they can't develop. But relying on guys to start who were not good enough to crack the lineup to put a uniform on last year is nothing short of idiotic is my opinion.

[Patler]

Bretsky;

Think back to the games Wells started at center in 2005. The general consensus was that he played better than Flanagan did. I'm not convinced about him yet myself, but I believe it is possible the center position will be no worse than last year.

The right side of the line will be Tauscher & Barry in one combination or the other. I am convinced of that. Sherman's fascination with the U-71 formation and his refusal to give Barry a chance at starting lead as much to his dismissal as anything else that he did or didn't do.

That leaves only the left guard position as an uncertainty. Between Klemm and Coston I think one will be adequate. Most sportswriters and even the coaches last year acknowledged that Klemm was a better pass blocker at guard than Wells was when he took over. His problem was in run blocking. Klemm's athleticism seems to make him a natural for zone blocking, where as much is accomplished in "screening" a defender as in over-powering him. I know the coaches have so far indicated that Klemm will stay at tackle, but I think that could change. Coston could be a nice player. There were a lot of very positive comments about him during the draft, but it was acknowledged that his background made it unlikely he would contribute as a rookie. Time will tell.

Now if the Packers should happen to swing a deal for Faine (somewhat unlikely in my opinion, but not out of the question) or invest a high draft pick in an O-lineman (very likely in my opinion), the 5-man combination will only get better.

Will this be one of the best lines in the league? No, it won't. Will it be adequate? Yes, I think it will. However, we may have to be a little patient with it as they learn the new scheme.

[retailguy]

OF COURSE I realize Coston or White will start ? There in lies my greatest criticism of TT; he'll settle for that. And the real reason we know one of them we'll start is there is no competition amongst NFL caliber starters there. That's why I'm so upset at TT for not getting us players at OG and LB. We'll surely have some guys on the field that don't yet belong there.

And I'm not saying they can't develop. But relying on guys to start who were not good enough to crack the lineup to put a uniform on last year is nothing short of idiotic is my opinion.


I just don't understand why you're so down on these two guys. Chris White played his guts out last season to "stick". Coston wasn't expected to contribute as a rookie, and its been reported over and over that he's busted his ass both during the season and since. Why shouldn't they have a shot? I agree with shamrock/patler/dude, or whomever he is, Klemm is the backup plan.

If Atlanta can start four undrafted guys and a 7th rounder and lead the league in rushing in their second season of the scheme, isn't it reasonable to expect something passable, even if its not stellar?

Bretsky, truthfully, these comments have some similarity to the whiners in 92 & 93 when everyone was concerned about "jumping on the west coast bandwagon". I respect your opinions, I just don't see the fears. Comparing their performance to shermans scheme really is not fair. Sherman's scheme was completely personnel driven. This scheme is NOT personnel driven. Many different types have done this in Denver and Atlanta. They have ALWAYS had good blocking and have led or come close to leading the league in rushing.

The real question is - has jags got enough experience in two seasons to install this thing and make it work? In my opinion, THAT is what you/us should worry about. I find it difficult to believe he's "mastered" it in two seasons. That concerns me....

[Partial]

I agree with the cynics.

While I think they will hopefully pan out, he should bring in some short-term contract help until they know for sure whether the guys they currently have are the ones they want long term.

[Patler]

I agree with the cynics.

While I think they will hopefully pan out, he should bring in some short-term contract help until they know for sure whether the guys they currently have are the ones they want long term.

Adam Timmerman was a 7th round draft pick in 1995 (#230), didn't do much as a rookie and was thrust into the starting lineup in 1996.

Marco Rivera was a 6th round pick in 1996 (#208), didn't get into a single game that year, played hardly at all in 1997 and became a starter in 1998.

No reason that Coston or White can't do the same.

As far as high draft picks, Taylor missed his first year because of injury, but would have started. Verba, Clifton and Tauscher all were starters as rookies. No reason a high draft pick couldn't do the same this year.

[packrulz]

I think Ken Ruttgers started too his rookie year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ruettgers was in danger of getting cut, i believe his 2nd training camp. HE was a late bloomer.

[packrulz]

Oh, my mistake, I thought he started right away. Never mind. :oops:

[Harlan Huckleby]

I can't remember, maybe he did start right away. Just like Wahle start righted away at left tackle after an injury.

But I remember clearly that Ruettgers struggled, just like Wahle, and there was talk of Ruettgers not even making the team his 2nd or 3rd year. John Michels same story, really. Wahle and Ruettgers came out of it. Michels bought a car dealership.

[Patler]

Ruettgers was in danger of getting cut, i believe his 2nd training camp. HE was a late bloomer.

Can't remember that far back, but that doesn't sound right to me.

[retailguy]

Ruettgers was in danger of getting cut, i believe his 2nd training camp. HE was a late bloomer.

Can't remember that far back, but that doesn't sound right to me.


Ruettgers was drafted 7th in 1985, and didn't start full-time until the 1986 season. His first year was not stellar, it's true, at the start of 1987 he was on thin ice, but righted the ship as he started for 11 seasons. If you remember he retired in the middle of the 96 season with bad knees, I think....

[Bretsky]

OF COURSE I realize Coston or White will start ? There in lies my greatest criticism of TT; he'll settle for that. And the real reason we know one of them we'll start is there is no competition amongst NFL caliber starters there. That's why I'm so upset at TT for not getting us players at OG and LB. We'll surely have some guys on the field that don't yet belong there.

And I'm not saying they can't develop. But relying on guys to start who were not good enough to crack the lineup to put a uniform on last year is nothing short of idiotic is my opinion.


I just don't understand why you're so down on these two guys. Chris White played his guts out last season to "stick". Coston wasn't expected to contribute as a rookie, and its been reported over and over that he's busted his ass both during the season and since. Why shouldn't they have a shot? I agree with shamrock/patler/dude, or whomever he is, Klemm is the backup plan.

If Atlanta can start four undrafted guys and a 7th rounder and lead the league in rushing in their second season of the scheme, isn't it reasonable to expect something passable, even if its not stellar?

Bretsky, truthfully, these comments have some similarity to the whiners in 92 & 93 when everyone was concerned about "jumping on the west coast bandwagon". I respect your opinions, I just don't see the fears. Comparing their performance to shermans scheme really is not fair. Sherman's scheme was completely personnel driven. This scheme is NOT personnel driven. Many different types have done this in Denver and Atlanta. They have ALWAYS had good blocking and have led or come close to leading the league in rushing.

The real question is - has jags got enough experience in two seasons to install this thing and make it work? In my opinion, THAT is what you/us should worry about. I find it difficult to believe he's "mastered" it in two seasons. That concerns me....


I don't think I'm down on them; but given the facts I refuse to have the Kool Aide Blind Faith. That is the difference right there between our views, and if I were TT I'd be bringing in a player or two in case these guys turn out to be Atlas Herrions.

[retailguy]

I don't think I'm down on them; but given the facts I refuse to have the Kool Aide Blind Faith. That is the difference right there between our views, and if I were TT I'd be bringing in a player or two in case these guys turn out to be Atlas Herrions.


Bretsky,

I have to ask, after that statement, are you Son of a Vic? :mrgreen:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess... Peace!

[BooHoo]

Still thinking we need to address the OLine. I am confident TT will draft at least one OLine type this year.

[Iron Mike]

Still thinking we need to address the OLine. I am confident TT will draft at least one OLine type this year.

Or could be, he's waiting for June 1st cuts. :neutral:

[BooHoo]

Still thinking we need to address the OLine. I am confident TT will draft at least one OLine type this year.

Or could be, he's waiting for June 1st cuts. :neutral:

I really wonder what qualify of player will be cut on 1 June. Are there any possible candidates being reported?

[Partial]

Adam Timmerman was a 7th round draft pick in 1995 (#230), didn't do much as a rookie and was thrust into the starting lineup in 1996.

Marco Rivera was a 6th round pick in 1996 (#208), didn't get into a single game that year, played hardly at all in 1997 and became a starter in 1998.

No reason that Coston or White can't do the same.

As far as high draft picks, Taylor missed his first year because of injury, but would have started. Verba, Clifton and Tauscher all were starters as rookies. No reason a high draft pick couldn't do the same this year.


Shamler,

No one is saying it isn't possible. I think these guys have potential. However, until I see some production rather than simply potential I don't want them penciled in as my starters, especially when they didn't play at all last year.

If I were in TT's shoes, I'd bring in some people to short-term contracts who can in the best case situation ride the pine and be incredible back-ups to our youngens while we build or depth through the draft, and worst case scenario can start and share plays with the youngens.

Just because you struck gold once does not mean you will again.

I am extremely hopeful for these guys in the future, but I see no reasons to put all their eggs in one basket this season when they have the resources to bring in some good players with short-term contracts.

[Bretsky]

I don't think I'm down on them; but given the facts I refuse to have the Kool Aide Blind Faith. That is the difference right there between our views, and if I were TT I'd be bringing in a player or two in case these guys turn out to be Atlas Herrions.


Bretsky,

I have to ask, after that statement, are you Son of a Vic? :mrgreen:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess... Peace!

NOPE,

Vic is a lot more negative than I am.

But based on your view on these guys who we have never seen play, I must ask. Are you Tex ? :wink:

Cheers,
B

[Guiness]

have to disagree retail.

If O'Dwyer was ok, why did he not pick up with another team last year? He was cut before the end of camp, so he could've hooked up. He was finished.

Sure, Klemm was pursued by NE. As a back up tackle. I do however, have hopes that he can be a solid player. He stayed healthy last year, which was a big concern.

What I really don't get is why they haven't gone out and gotten Faine. They seem to want to rely on White and Wells. Faine is a proven starter, and has a low annual salary. For the cost of a 4th rounder, you get a guy who can compete. If both Wells and White both show up loaded for bear, you cut Faine and all you lose is a 4th rounder. If not, you get a starter for $550K!!! Sorry, but picks in the mid rounds don't pan out often enough to not make that a good gamble.

[MJZiggy]

I think TT's trying to gain picks, not risk them on a player working out. Besides, he really does have confidence in Wells.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm okay with Wells at OC, and I'm even okay thinking Coston, Whitticker, or Barry might be fine competing for one OG spot. However, we HAVE to get a starting OG in the draft. That means a top 3 pick. Davin Joseph in round 2 would be the guy I'd want.

[Tarlam!]

Great guards rarely come into the NFL from college ball instantly great. At least, that's what I am observing from a coupla comments made on here.

Why, then, have we written of Whittiker completely?

I am pretty sure we will continue with growing pains, but, we will continue to grow!

The new offensive scheme will rely on running and short yardage. We will, I believe, see more double TE sets - a thing of beauty!

Our QB will need less time in the pocket to make plays. I think we will be far less reliant on our OL than under Shermy's system.

That is why I think what we have on our roster is sufficient, maybe, we add something not overly spectacular to provide depth.

Until the Visa card commercials, did any of us know the Pats' OL by name?

[billy_oliver880]

Until the Visa card commercials, did any of us know the Pats' OL by name?

Still don't know them.

[MJZiggy]

I still don't because I'm too focused during that one, but...oh, what were we talking about? Oh yes, I do believe the line will be fine, but just in case, we do need a few competent people who can be thrown in in case one of the kids has performance issues or problems learning the new scheme. Depth and a backup plan is a good idea I think. Do you think TT might bring in a few camp bodies over the summer to compete?

[Sparkey]

Dec. 20, 2005 - 6:16 p.m. ET
Jeff Faine was placed on injured reserve because of a torn right biceps muscle today.
This marks the third straight season the center's year ended because of injury. He might need surgery, but coach Romeo Crennell predicted a full recovery.



Three years in a row his season cut short by injuries ?

For a guy thats light in the butt, would be considered injury prone and is comming off a biceps tear, does he really make much sense ?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I do believe the line will be fine, but just in case, we do need a few competent people who can be thrown in in case

This is what was said last year. They'll be fine. Out of the grab bag of 15 unheralded players, Beighatol would find the 5 best in Summer camp and coach them up.

Well, it didn't work. Turns out the guys they had weren't good enough to compete. Favre got hit more, and the running game suffered.

I'll say that the guards and centers coming off last year's roster now have another year of development, and can only get better. But there is plenty of room for concern. Favre pointed this out in his last interview, and he ouight to know what he is talking about.

[KYPack]

I do believe the line will be fine, but just in case, we do need a few competent people who can be thrown in in case

This is what was said last year. They'll be fine. Out of the grab bag of 15 unheralded players, Beighatol would find the 5 best in Summer camp and coach them up.

Well, it didn't work. Turns out the guys they had weren't good enough to compete. Favre got hit more, and the running game suffered.

I'll say that the guards and centers coming off last year's roster now have another year of development, and can only get better. But there is plenty of room for concern. Favre pointed this out in his last interview, and he ouight to know what he is talking about.

You said a mouthful, HH.

It's like "The King is back, & he STILL doesn't have any clothes"

We went thru this last year, & 12 months later, we're still in the same place.

A big worry in my mind is scouting and evaluation. Thompson didn't own the guard problem, it was thrust on him. He did own the attempt to patch it up, and that effort was piss poor.

The league scouts and Thompson came up with O'Dwyer and Klemm as vet FA's. Matt was all washed up and Klemm was a tackle. Neither could hack it at the NFL level at guard.

Thompson and the college scouts came up with Whitticker and Coston. A 5th and a 7th round choice. Whitticker might be ready in '07. Coston from what I saw in Pre-Season, knows how to put his equipment on properly.

With last year's disaster in mind, I expected influx of talent this off-season. At least 1, but maybe 2 vet FA's. I dunno, maybe Thompson waiting for the June cuts, but things feel shakey right now.

I know the party line is that a zone stretch blocking scheme will allow us to build a steller line with UFA's and 7th round picks. I hope so, cause that's what we've got.

[Partial]

i've already penciled Davin Joseph in as our starting left guard.

I have penciled in Eslinger(4th) as our starting center.

They can let wells, coston, klemm, barry, whitticker and herron fight for that last spot.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Those young guys are a year older, so there is some hope. Everybody thought DT would be a disaster last year, and a lot of those 2nd and 3rd year guys really stepped up. You never know. I'm hoping the new scheme helps out Wells, White, and Coston. I'm also hoping Barry gets a legit chance at OG.

I don't think the pass protection was that bad last year. THe run blocking was horrible. The receivers being beat up and Ferguson disappointing hurt the passing game.