The ones GB let get away

[Patler]

After 3 games:

Charles Johnson - 3 starts, 6 receptions, 46 yards, 0 TDs
Greg Jennings - 3 starts, 4 receptions, 39 yards, 0 TDs

[George Cumby]

In Ted We Trust.

And ARod makes those around him better. Much better.

James Jones is a happy, happy man.

[Patler]

After four games:

Charles Johnson - 3 starts, 6 receptions, 46 yards, 0 TDs (Inactive this week due to injury.)
Greg Jennings - 4 starts, 7 receptions, 54 yards, 0 TDs

[red]

yup, its all about a-rod

thats why i'm not so sure it was a good idea to give jordy and cobb huge money

[Joemailman]

yup, its all about a-rod

thats why i'm not so sure it was a good idea to give jordy and cobb huge money

I would hate to see this offense without Cobb right now.

[Rutnstrut]

yup, its all about a-rod

thats why i'm not so sure it was a good idea to give jordy and cobb huge money

Jordy and Cobb imo were important to sign. But I would have much rather seen them get some decent offensive tackles than give Clay all the money they did.

[smuggler]

Nope. Clay is more vital than either Nelson or Cobb. But, I'm goin to take all three and smile.

[King Friday]

yup, its all about a-rod

thats why i'm not so sure it was a good idea to give jordy and cobb huge money

You need capable receivers who know the system...kids like Adams and Montgomery aren't there yet.

[channtheman]

yup, its all about a-rod

thats why i'm not so sure it was a good idea to give jordy and cobb huge money

It's all A-rod to an extent. I don't see the point I guess in drafting guys who develop into great players if you then don't sign any of them back.

[run pMc]

GJ was done with 2 contracts before he went to MIN. Signing aging WRs who are also smaller isn't a good investment, although I like GJ and think he still could have produced. The Favre era proved to me that an elite QB can turn average WRs into above average WRs. If you go back and see some of the receivers that have passed through, there are some very good ones, and a lot of mediocre ones. The constant is the high level of QB play,

As for Clay's contract, I think it's a lot of money but he's the most feared guy in the front seven for opposing teams. Pretty early to talk draft but I wouldn't be shocked to see TT go for another front seven player early on defense and an OT to play the left side. And yes, you want to sign your good, developing players when their rookie contracts are up. Cobb is young and has played couragously with Jordy out.

[3irty1]

The way I see it its not that an elite QB can turn jags into stars but rather having an elite QB gives you the access to make the most out of the moneyball class of receivers. Guys who do all the small things well but don't have the elite measurables of a Calvin Johnson or Julio Jones. You don't need to be a huge target with tons of separation speed if your QB can hit a smaller target in stride on any route.

[red]

are jordy and cobb really top tier Wrs that deserve top end money, or are the like jennings and to a lesser extent jones who were top tier wr's when they were here (jennings) but when they left became JAGS?

i think if both were to go to other teams they would both fall off the map and end up as sub 1000 yard guys

especially cobb, because he is not a #1 WR

its nice to have the two (of course we don't have jordy right now and the offence is still clicking) but i can't help to think that some of the money wouldn't have been better spent on a tackle or two to keep our franchise QB from getting destroyed

[SMBASS]

[QUOTE=run pMc;849921]GJ was done with 2 contracts before he went to MIN. Signing aging WRs who are also smaller isn't a good investment, although I like GJ and think he still could have produced. The Favre era proved to me that an elite QB can turn average WRs into above average WRs. If you go back and see some of the receivers that have passed through, there are some very good ones, and a lot of mediocre ones. The constant is the high level of QB play,

I agree that the Q.B. makes the receiver most of the time but sometimes a receiver like Megatron can make a Q.B. look a lot better with his YAC big plays and amazing catches. Look at how many crap passes Stafford has thrown that would have been picks or incompletions with an average or below average receiver. (Granted I realize Johnson is elite.) Moss was the same way for Culpepper. Just chuck the football up and let the big boys go get it. I remember reading one time where Ron Wolf said his biggest mistake was not consistently providing enough, "weapons" or good receivers for Favre.

[sharpe1027]

Good coaches also recognize play to their players strengths.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Greg Jennings was never a JAG, even when he was in Minnesota. Check out his stats. 68 and 59 receptions for 804 and 742 yards with who passing to him, Ponder? Jennings was a star receiver in college with a nobody throwing him passes.

Same with Jones. 73 catches for 666 yards with Oakland.

Jordy would be a star receiver on almost any team and Cobb is probably the best slot receiver in the NFL.

All of these guys are great receivers in the clutch as well. They are all in the top tier of NFL talent. We shouldn't sell them short.

Plus, they all are great route runners, are fast and have great hands, tailor made for Green Bay's offense. Besides Arod's talent, that's why they excell here.

[SMBASS]

Greg Jennings was never a JAG, even when he was in Minnesota. Check out his stats. 68 and 59 receptions for 804 and 742 yards with who passing to him, Ponder? Jennings was a star receiver in college with a nobody throwing him passes.

Same with Jones. 73 catches for 666 yards with Oakland.

Jordy would be a star receiver on almost any team and Cobb is probably the best slot receiver in the NFL.

All of these guys are great receivers in the clutch as well. They are all in the top tier of NFL talent. We shouldn't sell them short.

Plus, they all are great route runners, are fast and have great hands, tailor made for Green Bay's offense. Besides Arod's talent, that's why they excell here.


I agree Maxi. I think it's a lesson that Thompson learned from Wolf in that he always tries to keep the talent pool at WR full for A.R.. It's a funny game. One minute we looked overstocked at W.R., (Let J.J. go last year and drafted Monty early this year which was a head scratcher for some fans.) and the next minute we're picking J.J. back up off of the streets and that third round rookie is being counted on to play a big and eventually bigger role in the success of our offense as the year progresses.

Picking up J.J. the way we did still just dumbfounds me. I guess sometimes things really do happen for a reason. That guy continues to be money. He produces each week in some big way and I'm sure his professionalism and the way he goes about his business has to be a positive influence on the young receivers. J.J. had drops early in his career and he's had some adversity but he's also had success so I'm guessing he's probably good at getting these young guys back on task after they fail or make a mistake.

[King Friday]

its nice to have the two (of course we don't have jordy right now and the offence is still clicking) but i can't help to think that some of the money wouldn't have been better spent on a tackle or two to keep our franchise QB from getting destroyed

OT is one of the most overpaid positions in football. While tackles do have considerable importance...I do not see where their importance is 30-40% greater than interior lineman, which is what salary levels suggest. I would certainly agree there is a SLIGHT edge in importance, but 30-40% is significantly larger than that.

When QBs took more snaps from under center, tackles were more important to hold the edge while QBs dropped back into passing position. However, today's NFL sees QBs throwing from the shotgun about 6 times more than they did even a decade ago. That means the tackles are LESS important in pass protection than they used to be. I think Green Bay is wiser to not spend top dollar on OTs and load up on athletic weapons on offense and defense.

[Patler]

After 6 weeks and 5 games:

Charles Johnson - 3 games, 3 starts, 6 receptions, 46 yards, 0 TDs (Inactive again.)
Greg Jennings - 5 games, 4 starts, 8 receptions, 67 yards, 0 TDs (not listed as a starter this week.)

[run pMc]

Minny is letting Charles heal up from a rib injury and getting good production from their rookie (Stefon Diggs).
I agree Jennings was never a JAG, but he's on the wrong side of 30 and at this point not a #1 or #2 WR.

[Patler]

Minny is letting Charles heal up from a rib injury and getting good production from their rookie (Stefon Diggs).
I agree Jennings was never a JAG, but he's on the wrong side of 30 and at this point not a #1 or #2 WR.

It seemed from articles three weeks ago, that Johnson's injury was sustained in practice. Must have been significant, because he was inactive for their games before and after their bye.

[run pMc]

The way the Vikes are talking up Diggs, he'll be on the All-Pro team.

My guess is Johnson has cracked ribs and can't extend to catch the ball or run much. I'd guess he'll be back this week or next. Pretty wild how far Corderelle Patterson has fallen - he pretty much is a KR and that's it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Johnson hurt his ribs during the week 3 game vs San Diego. He should return this week, but Diggs looks like a real find for the Vikings, and with Wallace set on the outside and Wright set in the slot, Johnson may not get a lot of PT going forward. The Vikings have good weapons on offense, but Bridgewater hasn't looked very good. He's smart, has good mobility, but he lacks arm strength. His guys tend to get pretty open though.

[Fritz]

It'll be interesting to see if ol' Chuck Johnson can get by those mediocre Detroit cornerbacks.

[Rastak]

The way the Vikes are talking up Diggs, he'll be on the All-Pro team.

My guess is Johnson has cracked ribs and can't extend to catch the ball or run much. I'd guess he'll be back this week or next. Pretty wild how far Corderelle Patterson has fallen - he pretty much is a KR and that's it.

He might lose that too. Diggs does indeed look good, and he's fast.

Seems like he really gets it. Charles Johnson is a hard worker but for the first time in a long long time the Vikings WR corps is getting really deep in my opinion. Be interesting to see how many snaps Johnson gets.

I also agree with Harv about Bridgewater....not great arm strength but a really smart guy. Hasn't played all that well but we'll see how he progresses.

[Fritz]

He might lose that too. Diggs does indeed look good, and he's fast.

Seems like he really gets it. Charles Johnson is a hard worker but for the first time in a long long time the Vikings WR corps is getting really deep in my opinion. Be interesting to see how many snaps Johnson gets.

I also agree with Harv about Bridgewater....not great arm strength but a really smart guy. Hasn't played all that well but we'll see how he progresses.

Well, Ras, you can confidently say that he's got a better arm than Peyton Manning and makes better decisions than Jay Cutler. That sounds pretty good, doesn't it?

I think he's already a better QB than Pad Statford, too.

[Rastak]

Well, Ras, you can confidently say that he's got a better arm than Peyton Manning and makes better decisions than Jay Cutler. That sounds pretty good, doesn't it?

I think he's already a better QB than Pad Statford, too.


Well, reserving judgement on that but so far I like what I see.

[Fritz]

From watching Stafford, I see a guy who has topped out, and has even regressed a bit due in part to a porous offensive line. He takes off from the pocket early now, and despite the press slathering all over his performance against the Bears, I saw a guy who was unsure of himself at times, and whose best two plays came when he simply heaved the ball downfield and hoped Megatron would come down with it.

I'd rather have Teddy, myself, if I had to choose between him and Stafford and Cutler.

[sharpe1027]

From watching Stafford, I see a guy who has topped out, and has even regressed a bit due in part to a porous offensive line. He takes off from the pocket early now, and despite the press slathering all over his performance against the Bears, I saw a guy who was unsure of himself at times, and whose best two plays came when he simply heaved the ball downfield and hoped Megatron would come down with it.

I'd rather have Teddy, myself, if I had to choose between him and Stafford and Cutler.

As we have seen time after time, QBs do not follow a linear progression. Ted may be trending up, be he can still go in either direction from here. I think Ras is wise to be cautiously optimistic.

[pbmax]

From watching Stafford, I see a guy who has topped out, and has even regressed a bit due in part to a porous offensive line. He takes off from the pocket early now, and despite the press slathering all over his performance against the Bears, I saw a guy who was unsure of himself at times, and whose best two plays came when he simply heaved the ball downfield and hoped Megatron would come down with it.

I'd rather have Teddy, myself, if I had to choose between him and Stafford and Cutler.

There have been writeups that the passing game of the Lions is designed terribly compared to previous years. They are very limited in what they do. There is disagreement over whether this is coach mandated to be in adherence with the scheme or if they are covering for deficiencies of the talent. Mostly the result is that they have neutered the best weapon they have, Megatron.

Perhaps they miss Scott LINEHAN!, who is in Dallas missing Tony Romo and probably Stafford.

[Patler]

Well, reserving judgement on that but so far I like what I see.


As we have seen time after time, QBs do not follow a linear progression. Ted may be trending up, be he can still go in either direction from here. I think Ras is wise to be cautiously optimistic.

Ras has the wisdom of experience. In the last 15 years, Culpepper, Jackson and Ponder each seemed to have long range potential at one time or another, yet not one ever provided the long term stability needed at the position. But that isn't uncommon. The list of QBs who for 2, 3 or 4 years looked like they could get there, but never did, is very very long.

[mraynrand]

Perhaps they miss Scott Lineman, who is in Dallas missing Tony Romo and probably Stafford.

autocorrect strikes again!

[Cheesehead Craig]

Ras has the wisdom of experience. In the last 15 years, Culpepper, Jackson and Ponder each seemed to have long range potential at one time or another, yet not one ever provided the long term stability needed at the position. But that isn't uncommon. The list of QBs who for 2, 3 or 4 years looked like they could get there, but never did, is very very long.

When did T-Jack or Ponder ever have long range potential? I must have missed that reality.

[pbmax]

autocorrect strikes again!

Going to switch to linux any day now.

[Tony Oday]

Bridgewater is not a good QB.

[Fritz]

There have been writeups that the passing game of the Lions is designed terribly compared to previous years. They are very limited in what they do. There is disagreement over whether this is coach mandated to be in adherence with the scheme or if they are covering for deficiencies of the talent. Mostly the result is that they have neutered the best weapon they have, Megatron.

Perhaps they miss Scott LINEHAN!, who is in Dallas missing Tony Romo and probably Stafford.


I've read all that too, and it's funny. The narrative coming into the season was that this was the first time Stafford had the same offensive coordinator two years running, that he was kept a little on a leash last year as he learned the nuances of the offense, but this year they were taking the leash off. Said he looked very comfortable and was making great decisions with the ball in preseason.

[Patler]

When did T-Jack or Ponder ever have long range potential? I must have missed that reality.

They each had their moments. They got positive press when they played conservatively and managed games well. There were times when each looked like they had potential to develop into not great but at least competent starters. There were times when some thought each could be around a while. Bridgewater is about where each Jackson and Ponder was at one time or another.

[Rastak]

They each had their moments. They got positive press when they played conservatively and managed games well. There were times when each looked like they had potential to develop into not great but at least competent starters. There were times when some thought each could be around a while. Bridgewater is about where each Jackson and Ponder was at one time or another.

Once those guys had a few starts it was kind of clear Viking fans were left to just hope those two develop, no real film, just hope. Here, I feel pretty confident the guy is at least competent. He set a number of Viking rookie records and was about a top 3 QB to finish the year last year (meaning his last 7 games). Now again, I don't want to crown his ass to quote Denny Green but he's coming along just fine.

[smuggler]

Bridgewater will need maybe one more year. His ceiling is Drew Brees, which is not bad. No clue if he will pan out. But, the alternative at the time was Manziel, so you have that going for you... supid Browns...

[Guiness]

They each had their moments. They got positive press when they played conservatively and managed games well. There were times when each looked like they had potential to develop into not great but at least competent starters. There were times when some thought each could be around a while. Bridgewater is about where each Jackson and Ponder was at one time or another.

Did Ponder play that well ever? He had a decent season the year AP ran for 2000+, but I don't recall him ever being more than competent, and of course, often not even that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Bridgewater will need maybe one more year. His ceiling is Drew Brees, which is not bad.

Not bad!? Drew Brees had elite career.

I'd say Bridgewater's ceiling is closer to Matt Stafford. And I predict his career will be closer to Seneca Wallace than Drew Breeze.

[smuggler]

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. If you look at Brees in his first few seasons (with SD) you can see why my comparison is valid. I'd say that's a fair estimate of Teddy's ceiling. Not that he's certain to reach it, by any means.

"Rodgers' ceiling is Steve Young 2.0" which is not bad.

[Patler]

Did Ponder play that well ever? He had a decent season the year AP ran for 2000+, but I don't recall him ever being more than competent, and of course, often not even that.

Not for a whole season, no. But he beat the Packers the last game of 2012, with 3 TD passes and had generally played well-enough the end of that season for the Vikings to win a bunch of games and grab a playoff spot. Sure, Peterson was the key, but Ponder gave them a steady, not stellar, passing game, even if it was basically just to the TEs. I know an awful lot of Packer fans were encouraged when Ponder wasn't available the next week in the playoff game against the Packers.

[run pMc]

I think Bridgewater's ceiling is closer to Donovan McNabb or Matt Ryan than Drew Brees, but maybe I'm overvaluing Brees' play from his heyday, which was elite IMO. Bridgewater seems to float the ball sometimes, has had accuracy issues with long throws and (understadably) still makes dumb rookie decisions at times.

Ponder had his share of good games, and he had games where you were shaking your head. Not sure if he just needed more time/coaching, or if he was destined to be a clipboard holder.

Never understood the Manziel love, but Cleveland hasn't exactly been great at picking QB's (Couch, Weeden, etc.). Weeden was the worst pick -- 28 year olds aren't going to develop much.

As for ones GB let get away, how's Myles White doing? Is Paris Lenon still in the league? ;)

[Patler]

As for ones GB let get away, how's Myles White doing? Is Paris Lenon still in the league? ;)

Paris Lenon had an interesting career. At 37, he is now retired, after playing 189 NFL games, 125 after leaving GB and 112 of those as a starter. He last played in 2013 for Denver, starting all playoff games, including the Super Bowl. Very nice 12 year career. Nothing impressive about his career, except that he always found work as a starter.

[Rastak]

The way the Vikes are talking up Diggs, he'll be on the All-Pro team.

My guess is Johnson has cracked ribs and can't extend to catch the ball or run much. I'd guess he'll be back this week or next. Pretty wild how far Corderelle Patterson has fallen - he pretty much is a KR and that's it.


That dude is playing like it, holy shit.

[Patler]

After 7 weeks and 6 games:

Charles Johnson - 4 games, 3 starts, 7 receptions, 67 yards, 0 TDs (Active, did not start.)
Greg Jennings - 6 games, 4 starts, 10 receptions, 104 yards, 0 TDs (Did not start)

[Rastak]

After 7 weeks and 6 games:

Charles Johnson - 4 games, 3 starts, 7 receptions, 67 yards, 0 TDs (Active, did not start.)
Greg Jennings - 6 games, 4 starts, 10 receptions, 104 yards, 0 TDs (Did not start)


Charles didn't start today.

Rookie Stephon Diggs - 3 games, 2 starts, 19 receptions, 324 yards, 1 TD

[KYPack]

Myles White had a huge game on ST for the Giants.

[Patler]

Myles White had a huge game on ST for the Giants.

In what way? I didn't see the game.

[Guiness]

In what way? I didn't see the game.

Fumbled punt recovery is what I saw. Good hands fielded a bouncing ball cleanly.

[Patler]

just to close out the final stats:

Charles Johnson - 11 games, 4 starts, 9 receptions, 127 yards, 0 TDs
Greg Jennings - 16 games, 5 starts, 19 receptions, 208 yards, 1 TD

[Guiness]

What happened with Charles Johnson? Was he injured or was he just not all that? Did the attitude problems that were rumored cause a problem?

[Pugger]

Greg Jennings was never a JAG, even when he was in Minnesota. Check out his stats. 68 and 59 receptions for 804 and 742 yards with who passing to him, Ponder? Jennings was a star receiver in college with a nobody throwing him passes.

Same with Jones. 73 catches for 666 yards with Oakland.

Jordy would be a star receiver on almost any team and Cobb is probably the best slot receiver in the NFL.

All of these guys are great receivers in the clutch as well. They are all in the top tier of NFL talent. We shouldn't sell them short.

Plus, they all are great route runners, are fast and have great hands, tailor made for Green Bay's offense. Besides Arod's talent, that's why they excell here.

Yes, Jordy is a top 10 WR in the league and Cobb is a great slot WR but slots need a #1 WR on the other side to really thrive.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yes, Jordy is a top 10 WR in the league and Cobb is a great slot WR but slots need a #1 WR on the other side to really thrive.Exactly. And a great slot WR's talents do not necessarily translate to becoming a #1 WR. It's the major miscalculation IMO that the Packer brass made when Jordy went down. At the time I made the post I probably overestimated Cobb's speed, maybe Jones' too. Seeing them in man defense every week they don't outrun defenders very often anymore. Of course, I wasn't talking about Adams, but he rarely outruns defenders as well. Hence, the problems with our passing game, the second half of this year compared to last.

[Harlan Huckleby]

At the time I made the post I probably overestimated Cobb's speed, maybe Jones' too. Seeing them in man defense every week they don't outrun defenders very often anymore.

Separation? Jonesy don't need no stinkin separation.

[woodbuck27]

It's all A-rod to an extent. I don't see the point I guess in drafting guys who develop into great players if you then don't sign any of them back.and there isn't much pie remaining.

Draft and develop? Does that really work now in the NFL overall?

Does that in TRUTH and Theory work in Green Bay?

Unless basically every NFL Organization has the Packers and Ravens and Saints blueprint to structure a winning team; that's heavy loaded with a large percentage of CAP Money going to the QB.

If your successful in developing a draft pick into a decent player. Doesn't he want to be paid TOP DOLLAR!?

[run pMc]

If you have a QB who is at least decent or better, you want to hang onto them...unless you have someone better waiting in the wings.
Drafting/developing/keeping a player is dependent upon the position, the depth, and the amount of money. No way was GB keeping Davon House for what he got paid.

[pbmax]

Johnson did get hurt earlier this year but was also surpassed. His production might have been down regardless of health with their new guy.