Jeff Janis: He Who Conquers

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think it is time for the Sniffer's Club to have a thread to follow & honor the People's Champion.

Check out the tat on JJ:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/334086721.html
Lori Nichel must be damp.

This week's Fuckdoggle nominee has arrived, me hopes.

[mraynrand]

"Jeff Janis remains patient"

"Jeff Janis' teammates remain patients"

[deake]

I was at the game, tried to keep him in my sights, when they first put him in he was getting jammed @ the line, then later on they had him play off the line in motion and he was doing better running his routes, seemed to do a good job blocking, had trouble running shallow crossing routes, line backers were knocking him off his route. He appeared to have seperation several times but I guess AR was looking elsewhere. On the long pass play to RRodgers he appeared to be several steps behing his coverage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I was at the game, tried to keep him in my sights, when they first put him in he was getting jammed @ the line, then later on they had him play off the line in motion and he was doing better running his routes, seemed to do a good job blocking, had trouble running shallow crossing routes, line backers were knocking him off his route. He appeared to have seperation several times but I guess AR was looking elsewhere. On the long pass play to RRodgers he appeared to be several steps behing his coverage.

Well done. You must be one of McGinn's anonymous scouts.

[run pMc]

This year he teases, next year he makes the jump...maybe?


Lori Nichel must be damp. LMAO

[Maxie the Taxi]

Great thread, Blue Dog! Too bad I didn't think of it. I take back everything I said about your power-grubbing habits. Janis has indeed arrived. Nothing can stop him now. I'm thinking if that anal retentive QB of ours gets him the ball 10 or 12 times a game, we'll be talking Pro Bowl this year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I can't overstate how much your approval means to me, Mr. President. Heil Janis!

[Harlan Huckleby]

I propose a secret club salute/greeting patterned after the Three Amigos. The cough gesture to be replaced by a head turn and vigorous sniff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAMFHSKdCH8

[Maxie the Taxi]

< sniff

I love it...provided you're serious. I would hate to think you're being facetious.

[Fritz]

Can't wait to see if Janis gets a few balls thrown at him - and not in sacks in the locker room - at Denver.

If Adams is still a little gimpy, and Monty is, too, he still might see some snaps. But will he get open, and will Rodgers get him the ball?

Oh, how we all ache for that long bomb down the sidelines for a touchdown! That'll keep all defenses everywhere in the league suddenly honest!

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/334673191.html

Q: Gerry Fagan, Billings, Montana - do you see much comparison between Bill Shroeder and Jeff Janis? Both had a small school background yet were really good athletes. Schroeder had several good years, but seemed to not live up to his potential.

A: Tom Silverstein - I could see why you would make that comparison. Both big guys with good straight-line speed. I think Janis is less cut than Schroeder and thus more flexible. You can tell that just by watching how he works on special teams. Change of direction is not that hard for him. I think he has the potential to do what Schroeder did. I'm sure you want to know if I think he can be better. I just don't know. I suspect so, but I'm not willing to commit all my chips to it.

[Maxie the Taxi]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/334673191.html


A: Tom Silverstein - I could see why you would make that comparison. Both big guys with good straight-line speed. I think Janis is less cut than Schroeder and thus more flexible. You can tell that just by watching how he works on special teams. Change of direction is not that hard for him. I think he has the potential to do what Schroeder did. I'm sure you want to know if I think he can be better. I just don't know. I suspect so, but I'm not willing to commit all my chips to it.

Pussy!!

Hard core sniffers go all in.

[hoosier]

I think Janis is less cut than Schroeder and thus more flexible. You can tell that just by watching how he works on special teams. Change of direction is not that hard for him. [/url]

Silverstein is talking out of his pie hole. Schroeder's problem was not change of direction.

[George Cumby]

Right. His problem was between the ears.

[pbmax]

Change of mental direction?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Homer on his radio show insists that Billy Schroeder was really good, and that Janis will be lucky to be that good. (Callers often make that Schroeder comparison. Me - I don't see color.) I remember Schroeder being a decent weapon, he started for several years. Guess people have different memories.

[sharpe1027]

Bill Schroeder's career reminds me of Javon Walker, a couple good years sandwiched between mediocrity. At their (short) peaks, they were good weapons.

Janis is struggling to get time despite three WRs above him being injured. Let's see if he can even crack a starting lineup before making this comparison.

[mraynrand]

Bill Schroeder's career reminds me of Javon Walker, a couple good years sandwiched between mediocrity. At their (short) peaks, they were good weapons.

Janis is struggling to get time despite three WRs above him being injured. Let's see if he can even crack a starting lineup before making this comparison.

That's pretty nice to Schroeder; I'm more tempted to compare him with Corey Bradford.

[sharpe1027]

That's pretty nice to Schroeder; I'm more tempted to compare him with Corey Bradford.

Interesting. I thought it was being nice to Walker. Schroeder arguably had the better career, although Walker had a better single year.

[mraynrand]

Interesting. I thought it was being nice to Walker. Schroeder arguably had the better career, although Walker had a better single year.

Billy lasted longer; Walker had more ability I thought. The knee blow out pretty much finished him.

[sharpe1027]

Billy lasted longer; Walker had more ability I thought. The knee blow out pretty much finished him.

Both were in the NFL for 8 years, and Walker had a big year after the knee injury. IMHO, there's not much to separate them.

[mraynrand]

Both were in the NFL for 8 years, and Walker had a big year after the knee injury. IMHO, there's not much to separate them.

That was with Denver, right? (I didn't bother to look it up). I thought he was lesser after that knee deal. Kinda like Brooks. Cam back, played decent, but something was missing. My view is that Walker had more upside there - that's what the knee finished off. But you could easily be right that Walker showed all he had.

[sharpe1027]

That was with Denver, right? (I didn't bother to look it up). I thought he was lesser after that knee deal. Kinda like Brooks. Cam back, played decent, but something was missing. My view is that Walker had more upside there - that's what the knee finished off. But you could easily be right that Walker showed all he had.

Yeah, it was with Denver after he left the Packers. Had over 1,000 yards and his best year was 1,300 with Favre slinging it to him. Maybe he tailed off because of the knee, but he had some problems between the ears if I recall correctly.

[Patler]

Being in the car with Darrent Williams when Williams was murdered probably affected him during what could have been his prime years, too. He was lucky not to have been killed himself. He said once afterward that he had trouble moving on from that for a long time. I can imagine that football didn't seem all that important.

[mraynrand]

^^^ totally forgot about that

[Harlan Huckleby]

Pussy!!

Hard core sniffers go all in.

Yes, I know Silverstein's support is a bit tenuous, perhaps at this stage he's a SINO (sniffer in name only.) But we can't afford to be too picky. Even with a big tent approach, so far we got a whole lot more tent than members.

We do have one True Sniffer friend in the media - Eric Baranczyk. Listen to Baranczyk's comments on Bill Michaels Show (https://ia601503.us.archive.org/34/items/ericbaranczyk/ericbaranczyk.mp3)


For some reason - did Jeff Janis date Olivia Munn at some point? What's going on? I don't understand. The guy's got wheels - throw him the ball!

Booya!

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yes, I know Silverstein's support is a bit tenuous, perhaps at this stage he's a SINO (sniffer in name only.) But we can't afford to be too picky. Even with a big tent approach, so far we got a whole lot more tent than members.

We do have one True Sniffer friend in the media - Eric Baranczyk. Listen to Baranczyk's comments on Bill Michaels Show (https://ia601503.us.archive.org/34/items/ericbaranczyk/ericbaranczyk.mp3)



Booya!

Good find, Huck. Let's offer him an honorary sniffership.

However, I never liked the "big tent" approach. I'd rather have a small tent filled with ideologically pure sniffers than a big tent filled with rabble who simply smell.

On another note, these faux comparisons with Bill Schroeder, Javon Walker, etc. do our man Janis a disservice. In truth he is the reincarnation of #80 Bob Long, one of Lombardi's favorites. (If Lombardi were Stubby today, Janis would be starting. Take it to the bank!)

Janis and Long: same height, same weight, same speed, same yards per catch, same pluck, same bench splinters, same sniffers' club. End of story. http://nfl.packers.com/history/all_time_roster/player/long_bob_1964-67/

http://cdn.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-product-image/packers-bob-long-signed-jersey-w-sb-i-ii-jsa-coa-auto-autographed-green-bay1-1-t5674614-170.jpgLong was the only active player ever to play for both the Green Bay Packers and Washington Redskins under Vince Lombardi and is part of the "Lombardi Legends."

I predict in 4 years Janis will be a part of the "Stubby Legends."

[Bretsky]

Everybody want to love Janis because he's a small school white boy that can run, but the real question is can he run effective pass routes ? So far it's highly debateable at best.

Let's take our panties off and instead of dancing around, come out and say your viewpoints as to whether he'll even be a NFL starter or even a legit #3 ?

I'm not a buyer of Janis.

Javon Walker at his peak was a rising star; they he left his QB who was assisting him in his rise. He was an idiot. At his best Bill Schoeder was a well below average #2 WR for Ron Wolf's squads. Wolf did a poor job as surrounding Favre with depth at WR overall.

Schroeder doesn't come close to starting with TT at the helm.

[Maxie the Taxi]

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M9b5d0bdbb410ac52171ae073c56f6054H0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0 NO BIG TENT FOR YOU!!

[smuggler]

Walker had problems with the knee he blew out for the rest of his career. It would swell up and stiffen and he missed numerous games as a result.

[Patler]

Why is everyone so down on Janis? Many receivers from big school programs take most of a year before they start contributing significantly. Janis is 6 games into his second year, and he was coming from much farther back. Donald Driver did little of nothing his first three years (3, 21 &13 receptions) and he was trying to beat out the infamous Bill Schroeder. The knock on Driver was that all he could do was run fast and jump high (sound familiar?)

I have no idea if Janis will pan out or not as a receiver, but I am certainly willing to give him more time to develop. I'll say this for him, he seems intense and willing to do what is asked. He has already come close on a couple blocked punts, and his work as a gunner has been very good even with the botched effort inside the 5 yard line. He has been a solid tackler, and apparently has been beating blockers to be in the returners face when the ball gets there.

As a receiver, Janis is a work in progress, for sure. But I think the important part is "in progress".

[sharpe1027]

I think it is reasonable to be think Janis is a long shot to be a starter or more. Nobody says they know for sure, but there are plenty of potential project guys that never get there. Nobody knows, but we're free to guess.

[swede]

It would swell up and stiffen...

Is priapism the medical term if the swelling and stiffness is just in the knee? He should see a doctor. Preferably a really pretty doctor. Unless it's just the knee. Then he should probably see an orthopedic doctor. Unless there happens to be a really pretty orthopedic doctor handy.

Schroeder will always be legendary for how much he played versus how pissed off he made both Holmgren and Favre.

Janis will be godlike. I reserve the right to say which god until later. Maybe Priapus.

[Patler]

Plenty of top prospects don't make it too.

[Patler]

Schroeder will always be legendary for how much he played versus how pissed off he made both Holmgren and Favre.



Perhaps an indication of what a bad job Wolf did at times finding wide receivers.

It was sort of entertaining, waiting to see which one would blow up at Schroeder. Favre waiving frantically and screaming at him as he came back to the huddle or left the field. Holmgren grabbing his facemask and yelling in his face.

[mraynrand]

Janis gives mediocre a bad name. he is a bottom feeder. He might cling to the very bottom of a roster for as many as eight years, but his ceiling is about 40 catches for 600 yards. He is a stop gap until someone without an ankle, shoulder or ACL injury comes along.

[Pugger]

Janis gives mediocre a bad name. he is a bottom feeder. He might cling to the very bottom of a roster for as many as eight years, but his ceiling is about 40 catches for 600 yards. He is a stop gap until someone without an ankle, shoulder or ACL injury comes along.

Janis has his avid supporters but IMO your assessment of him just as extreme. I'd wager Janis is somewhere in between = a #4/5 WR and effective ST player. His size and speed make him a nice gunner. Every team needs players like him.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Why is everyone so down on Janis? Many receivers from big school programs take most of a year before they start contributing significantly. Janis is 6 games into his second year, and he was coming from much farther back. Donald Driver did little of nothing his first three years (3, 21 &13 receptions) and he was trying to beat out the infamous Bill Schroeder. The knock on Driver was that all he could do was run fast and jump high (sound familiar?)


Even Jordy didn't blossom until his 4th year.

[mraynrand]

Janis has his avid supporters but IMO your assessment of him just as extreme. I'd wager Janis is somewhere in between = a #4/5 WR and effective ST player. His size and speed make him a nice gunner. Every team needs players like him.

I agree. And a #4/5 guy is gonna top out at 40/600. The only reason Janis is on the field is because Adams and Nelson are out and Cobb is somewhat limited.

[mraynrand]

Even Jordy didn't blossom until his 4th year.

yes, but he's a rose and Janis is a turnip.

[Patler]

yes, but he's a rose and Janis is a turnip.

Nelson:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTF-zix6x-YchMWC9SNIUvrg5hSN7ozPmNuroLGMw1kiqaWl1-TzQ




Janis:

http://goatsass.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Apr202011HoneyBeeAndTurnipBlossom.jpg

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'm thinking this thread needs a Star Chamber-like process to weed out doubting Thomas's and anti-sniffers (I'm looking straight at you, Rand.:sad:) I'd appoint Harlan but he's notoriously unfair and biased...On second thought he'd be perfect.

[George Cumby]

If the guy is the offense's version of Jarret Bush, then he is welcome on the roster and can enjoy the disdain of all of us posers and losers who couldn't make it to Saginaw Valley State or wherever he went to school.

[mraynrand]

If the guy is the offense's version of Jarret Bush, then he is welcome on the roster and can enjoy the disdain of all of us posers and losers who couldn't make it to Saginaw Valley State or wherever he went to school.

I have no distain at all for the guy. Just being realistic about his abilities. Who knows? There's a 1-2% chance he could go Donald Driver.

[George Cumby]

I'm not sniffing and I'm not knocking him. I just have no idea where he lands on the continuum.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I would have given my left pinky toe to see Janis run a couple of fly patterns Sunday, and not because he's a white boy that can run, but because he's the fastest receiver on Green Bay's roster...just saying.

[Freak Out]

No doubt. Why not run a flea flicker as well.

[pbmax]

Traveled across the state today. Three topics of conversation:

1. Rodgers on Offense
2. McCarthy on players/scheme
3. Janis, Janis, Janis

Question no one asked them, with Adams back and trying to get up to speed, who sits? Or is it a 4 WR set?

[mraynrand]

I would have given my left pinky toe to see Janis run a couple of fly patterns Sunday, and not because he's a white boy that can run, but because he's the fastest receiver on Green Bay's roster...just saying.

you have to have more than 1.8 seconds to throw a deep ball.

[Harlan Huckleby]

who sits?

Who cares? It's not like we're messing with a lean, mean, point-scoring machine. Any and all of those receivers can sit for a few plays.

[Harlan Huckleby]

No doubt. Why not run a flea flicker as well.

Flea flicker good.

Also, put the wunderkind in motion, then have him peel back to grab the ball from ARod on the ole statue of liberty play. Anything to get the rock in the hands of He Who Conquers. Speed kills, baby.

[pbmax]

Who cares? It's not like we're messing with a lean, mean, point-scoring machine. Any and all of those receivers can sit for a few plays.

Then the odds of making it work decrease. If you just throw him out there every five snaps to run a 9 pattern, everyone will adjust. No way to run an offense.

Here is the fun part: the logical choice is Jones. Adams needs the work. You might see Rodgers' head pop off its moorings if you did that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Here is the fun part: the logical choice is Jones. Adams needs the work. You might see Rodgers' head pop off its moorings if you did that.

Jones and Adams can both sit some plays without any great suffering for either. Rodgers is the problem - too anal all the way around.

[pbmax]

Jones and Adams can both sit some plays without any great suffering for either. Rodgers is the problem - too anal all the way around.

So why not start Cobb at QB and then play Janis in the slot?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think there is too much of a dropoff from Rodgers to Cobb, but keep the ideas coming.

[pbmax]

I think there is too much of a dropoff from Rodgers to Cobb, but keep the ideas coming.

Sure, but can you explain how Janis helps if Rodgers is the actual problem?

Bench Linsley for his ole block on two middle blitzers (first one then the other) on the late Rodgers sack. Put Tretter in. Run Walker at U-71 for the off tackle play. Start Starks.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sure, but can you explain how Janis helps if Rodgers is the actual problem?

We don't really have any idea if Janis will help the team, but it is worth a try.

Rodgers' problem is he is risk averse to a fault. He needs to, well, R-E-L-A-X that sphincter muscle. Risk interceptions when team is struggling to put points on board. Stop treating Janis like a registered sex offender.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Then the odds of making it work decrease. If you just throw him out there every five snaps to run a 9 pattern, everyone will adjust. No way to run an offense.

Here is the fun part: the logical choice is Jones. Adams needs the work. You might see Rodgers' head pop off its moorings if you did that.

I don't understand the resistance. That the defense will "adjust" is my point. How will they adjust is the question. Play the safeties deeper? Take the double team off of Cobb? I'm assuming Janis can beat his defender over the top with his speed. If he can, Denver has to adjust even if Arod doesn't throw to him. Then we adjust to that adjustment. If he can't, then I shut up and the team goes back to square one.:-|

[pbmax]

I don't understand the resistance. That the defense will "adjust" is my point. How will they adjust is the question. Play the safeties deeper? Take the double team off of Cobb? I'm assuming Janis can beat his defender over the top with his speed. If he can, Denver has to adjust even if Arod doesn't throw to him. Then we adjust to that adjustment. If he can't, then I shut up and the team goes back to square one.:-|

What if the adjustment is that you play your CB 10 yards off the LOS and backpedal right away? And because you know the 9 route is likeliest, you bring that side's safety to the box to defend the run, slant or a WR screen? Does that help the offense or make it easier to read what you are doing by making one side much more simplistic?

If Janis is that limited, he might be unstoppable on one play, but make the QB and WRs jobs harder. Not even Favre and Sharpe could ride a one target offense to playoff success.

Could he do more? He might. Seemed possible when he made two big catches in his most extensive playing time. But when the coaching staff seems very resistant to make him a major contributor, I think it more likely there are too many things he cannot do. Think about the coaching staff you are worried about. They specialize in starting rookies. Cobb and Montgomery. Linsey and Bach.

6-1 doesn't seem like the time to try this. This offense is facing 2 deep coverage again and cannot operate. Putting a deep threat in hasn't broken that open for them in the past.

[mraynrand]

The fact that Rodgers had to re-direct Janis on at least two plays that I saw against San Diego is the reason he's not out there. If that's what's going on at the line of scrimmage, the pattern stuff and other adjustments must also be suffering. The push to get him out there is based on some fanciful notion that he's going to burn everyone deep and open up the offense, but the reality is that defenses adjust and if he's clueless, that actually shuts off an option rather than opening things up. Of course, relative to this board, the fact is, we have no idea really why he's not out there, but in the absence of any new information other than Harlan's hopeful assertions, I'm sticking with the clueless theory, because I've seen evidence for it with mine own eyes.

[sharpe1027]

What if the adjustment is that you play your CB 10 yards off the LOS and backpedal right away? And because you know the 9 route is likeliest, you bring that side's safety to the box to defend the run, slant or a WR screen? Does that help the offense or make it easier to read what you are doing by making one side much more simplistic?

If Janis is that limited, he might be unstoppable on one play, but make the QB and WRs jobs harder. Not even Favre and Sharpe could ride a one target offense to playoff success.

Could he do more? He might. Seemed possible when he made two big catches in his most extensive playing time. But when the coaching staff seems very resistant to make him a major contributor, I think it more likely there are too many things he cannot do. Think about the coaching staff you are worried about. They specialize in starting rookies. Cobb and Montgomery. Linsey and Bach.

6-1 doesn't seem like the time to try this. This offense is facing 2 deep coverage again and cannot operate. Putting a deep threat in hasn't broken that open for them in the past.

The alternative, however, was trotting out R. Rodgers every play. If Janis as limited as all that, he shouldn't be on the team, period. They had Abby and Janis ride the pine in favor of RR. I'm not saying they would have been saviors, but it was not like they would have been benching Jerry Rice to send them out there.

I understand the coaches get paid to do their job and they are smarter and better at it than I will ever be. They are still human, a little variation couldn't have hurt much. I mean even if you right, maybe Rodgers only throws for 60 yards instead of 77!

[Harlan Huckleby]

6-1 doesn't seem like the time to try this. This offense is facing 2 deep coverage again and cannot operate. Putting a deep threat in hasn't broken that open for them in the past.

You put up reason after reason to stay the course.

Honestly, I think the Pack would be in better shape today if they had lost to San Diego. That should have been treated as a bad loss - they needed several good breaks to pull-out a win. All we heard during bye was "6-0, baby!" Now it's "6-1. What, me worry?"

http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/8/8c/350x700px-LL-8c363b82_alfred.png

[pbmax]

You put up reason after reason to stay the course.

Honestly, I think the Pack would be in better shape today if they had lost to San Diego. That should have been treated as a bad loss - they needed several good breaks to pull-out a win. All we heard during bye was "6-0, baby!" Now it's "6-1. What, me worry?"

[IMG]http:/IMG]

On a scale of 1-10, how much should you be worried at 6-1 with this team?

[Harlan Huckleby]

On a scale of 1-10, how much should you be worried at 6-1 with this team?

I'm not worried because I don;t care that much if they go to Super Bowl. But I do want my weekly entertainment, damn it. I'd describe myself as frustrated. They are under-performing, or at least what they are doing on offense looks predictable and ineffective. Rodgers and Clement need to let their freak flag fly, man. Open it up.

Rodgers threw for 77 yards.

[Maxie the Taxi]

pb, I don't know enough about x's and o's to debate you on this. I'm basically just a fan with enough knowledge to be dangerous. But I agree with Harlan and Sharpe...at this point what do we have to lose? Besides, there are plenty of expert commentators who have asked the same questions and made the same speculations that we have, so...

On a scale of 1 to 10 I can't say, but I am worried about an offense that seems to struggle against good defenses and a defense that seems to give up tons of yardage against good QB's. I don't think this is the stuff on which we can rest our laurals.

And rand, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes!

[mraynrand]

And rand, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes!

My vision is perfect!

http://images1.westword.com/imager/big-photos-below/u/original/6535018/man.squinting.thinkstock.205x205.jpg

[Patler]

A few years ago, the Packers frequently used formations with 5 WRs. Using 4 was quite standard. When Adams was out, and this past week with Montgomery out, they don't even want to use 4 WRs. They keep R. Rodgers out there in spite of his frequent blocking catastrophies, suddenly frequent penalties, and insignificance as a receiving option. Seems to all point at a total lack of comfort in having either Janis or Abbrederis on the field.

Sure seems like you could "risk" a few plays, and take R. Rodgers out in favor of Janis or Abbrederis.

[sharpe1027]

On a scale of 1-10, how much should you be worried at 6-1 with this team?

On the scale of 1-10, I would say your worry level should be "Orange." Which might be interpreted as corresponding to about 3.1416, unless you normalize across multiple years, in which case your worry level should be N or perhaps R. Of course, if you live in the Southern Hemisphere, then your worry level should be 52.

[George Cumby]

But only if the water going down the toilet travels in an anti-clockwise direction whilst birds on a wire sing the Folsom Prison Blues in the key of A minor while a dozen Angels dance on the head of a pin.

[pbmax]

I am trying to point out that the team is 6-1 and had major trouble with 1 very good defensive squad on the road.

You have a lot to lose. You cannot pretend that the Packers offense has hit rock bottom after one week of putridity.

If you want to be reminded of what they might be, watch the Browns tomorrow night.

[sharpe1027]

I am trying to point out that the team is 6-1 and had major trouble with 1 very good defensive squad on the road.

You have a lot to lose. You cannot pretend that the Packers offense has hit rock bottom after one week of putridity.

If you want to be reminded of what they might be, watch the Browns tomorrow night.

Rock bottom? No. Some reason to question and have some worry? Certainly.

It's not just one week either. While this was their worst, they haven't exactly tore it up all year.

[pbmax]

Rock bottom? No. Some reason to question and have some worry? Certainly.

It's not just one week either. While this was their worst, they haven't exactly tore it up all year.

So you agree there is something to lose? Janis could make it worse. This is my point.

And I would bet its how the coaches feel.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So you agree there is something to lose? Janis could make it worse.

Any change can make things worse, always.

The problem of a lack of downfield threat has gotten worse over the season.

[mraynrand]

Any change can make things worse, always.

The problem of a lack of downfield threat has gotten worse over the season.

undoubtedly. Weren't Adams and Monty healthy to start the season?

[yetisnowman]

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but i speculate that Janis has major ball security issues that show themselves in practice. I remember Janis being in on the first offensive possession against San Diego. I believe the first play was a play action roll out and he was wide open, and A-rod hesitated to throw it to him because he knew he would face some contact after the catch. It even looked like the play was designed FOR Janis, and A-rod still didn't trust him Otherwise, it's a complete mystery. If Perillo and even Ripkowski can get some snaps he should too.

[Harlan Huckleby]

undoubtedly. Weren't Adams and Monty healthy to start the season?

Adams played very little early. I think problem has gotten worse mainly because opponents have game film to break down.

[mraynrand]

Adams played very little early. I think problem has gotten worse mainly because opponents have game film to break down.

of whom? Just Cobb. Pretty quickly other teams have doubled Cobb and said let the other guys beat us. They cannot.

[sharpe1027]

So you agree there is something to lose? Janis could make it worse. This is my point.

And I would bet its how the coaches feel.

Yes, I already said that above. However, the difference was going to be what exactly? Only throw for 50 yards instead of 77?

[Smidgeon]

undoubtedly. Weren't Adams and Monty healthy to start the season?

Even when Adams was in, what did he do in the regular season to back up his offseason MVP award? I'm not down on the guy (yet), but I want to see him play well when he's not on the opponents underskilled #3 CB.

Monty, for being a rookie in a complex scheme, was exciting in spurts on offense. You got the feeling he was going to be something. A spark.

Hopefully the ankle doesn't deter his development.

Just think, if they both develop, you could have the deep speed of Janis (24) and the short burst of Monty (22) to compliment Cobb (25) and Adams (22) once "old man" Jordy (30) loses a step.

[pbmax]

sharpe - they are not going to be as bad as Denver again. And I say that without too much worry about the upcoming Carolina road game :lol: So the potential for loss is much higher than panicky fans are willing to admit. Janis could actively make the offense worse AND more like the Denver one. It is not just a rhetorical question of having nothing to lose. The coaches believe he makes the offense worse.

Now on defense, coaches have been wrong. Desmond Bishop comes to mind. But it hasn't happened on offense in quite some time.

For smidgeon, 2014 Adams was the most successful rookie WR in M3's offense, perhaps Cobb had slightly better numbers. But Adams literally was the pass offense for 2 games. And Monty looked like he might surpass Adams. Janis has only done that in preseason.

So one answer to the question of "what have you got to lose" is that Adams, who was on his way as a rookie and in camp, gets slowed down in his development while we wait the development from Janis.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So one answer to the question of "what have you got to lose" is that Adams, who was on his way as a rookie and in camp, gets slowed down in his development while we wait the development from Janis.

They both can get on the field. Janis taking snaps from the whole WR group - including plays with Richard Rodgers split out wide - is not going to slow down any body's development. What about Janis's development?

[mraynrand]

Even when Adams was in, what did he do in the regular season to back up his offseason MVP award? I'm not down on the guy (yet), but I want to see him play well when he's not on the opponents underskilled #3 CB.


Adams played very little early.

5 catches for 59 yards, I suppose.

MVP? where does that come from? Maybe a bunch of blustery Packers fans who think guys are a lot better than they really are? (*cough* *cough* Janis *cough* *cough*)

[sharpe1027]

PB, I am talking first about making an adjustment during the Denver game. What is your take on that? I will ignore the unnecessary reference to panicky fans.

I am talking second about being prepared and willing to do so in the future if they run into similar problems.

As I said before, the alternative was sticking with R. Rodgers. Unless you saw something in his play that I missed, it is unlikely to be a huge step down putting in Janis or Abby. Janis got a lot of time in the Chargers game, so it is not like he is a complete unknown. What is your take on the relative risk of playing Janis or Abby vs. playing R. Rodgers?

[mraynrand]

They both can get on the field. Janis taking snaps from the whole WR group - including plays with Richard Rodgers split out wide - is not going to slow down any body's development. What about Janis's development?

good question. I still believe that the deep ball to Janis* against SD was an error by Janis, swerving towards DickRods. But the thing is that Rodgers pass to Dickrod was overthrown and only the magnificent speed of Janis was able to snag it.




*I don't care what Aaron Rodgers said - I'm not gonna believe a guy who can only throw for 50 yards.

[sharpe1027]

To be honest, I was hoping to see Abby more than Janis. Someone that could run a decent route, rather than just relying on being a better athlete.

[Pugger]

To be honest, I was hoping to see Abby more than Janis. Someone that could run a decent route, rather than just relying on being a better athlete.

We might see more of Abby as the season progresses. Abby might be a little behind Janis because he missed basically all of TC this past summer.

[Smidgeon]

5 catches for 59 yards, I suppose.

MVP? where does that come from? Maybe a bunch of blustery Packers fans who think guys are a lot better than they really are? (*cough* *cough* Janis *cough* *cough*)

I thought I remembered M3 and Rodgers calling him the offseason MVP. I may be misremembering.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Maybe a bunch of blustery Packers fans who think guys are a lot better than they really are? (*cough* *cough* Janis *cough* *cough*)

You are the one expressing certainty about Janis's potential to help the offense. Those questioning "stay the course" want to see some new looks.

[3irty1]

I wonder how much blame the receivers really deserve for the current dysfunction. Open vs covered is not exactly a binary thing, its a judgment made in an instant based on some subjective level of separation. That judgment is made by Rodgers. On free plays with nothing at stake he'll throw up some contested passes with pretty darn good results. I trust Rodgers to spin the ball wherever he wants it to go. I trust James Jones to make the contested catch in a tight window. I wonder what Rodgers trusts right now.

[Patler]

good question. I still believe that the deep ball to Janis* against SD was an error by Janis, swerving towards DickRods. But the thing is that Rodgers pass to Dickrod was overthrown and only the magnificent speed of Janis was able to snag it.


Wasn't Janis doing exactly what he was supposed to do when a play breaks down and Rodgers moves out of the pocket? He broke off his route and ran to an open area where Rodgers could see him. Rodgers claimed he was throwing to Janis, and I tend to believe him, just based on his normal accuracy even when moving. If he really intended it for R. Rodgers, it might have been about the most inaccurate throw from Rodgers that I can remember.

[pbmax]

PB, I am talking first about making an adjustment during the Denver game. What is your take on that? I will ignore the unnecessary reference to panicky fans.

I am talking second about being prepared and willing to do so in the future if they run into similar problems.

As I said before, the alternative was sticking with R. Rodgers. Unless you saw something in his play that I missed, it is unlikely to be a huge step down putting in Janis or Abby. Janis got a lot of time in the Chargers game, so it is not like he is a complete unknown. What is your take on the relative risk of playing Janis or Abby vs. playing R. Rodgers?

Of course I was exempting present company from inclusion in the panicky fans comment! We are all too evolved for that kind of thing.

579! UNSOUND!

Clearly they don't think he is ready to play an extended amount. Pulling RR changes the complexion of the group (one less blocker) and the defense reacts by sending on another DB. So no, I don't think that happens unless RichRod screws up to a KGB level of obliviousness.

[sharpe1027]

Of course I was exempting present company from inclusion in the panicky fans comment! We are all too evolved for that kind of thing.

579! UNSOUND!

Clearly they don't think he is ready to play an extended amount. Pulling RR changes the complexion of the group (one less blocker) and the defense reacts by sending on another DB. So no, I don't think that happens unless RichRod screws up to a KGB level of obliviousness.

I did not say play Janis or Abby an extended amount. I just do not see it as so black and white. I am not talking about panic, or completely throwing the game plan out. Just asking if maybe it would have been worth trying some different packages to get someone on the field that offered something different than R. Rodgers. Is that so crazy?

I bet we see less of R. Rodgers in the next game...

[pbmax]

I did not say play Janis or Abby an extended amount. I just do not see it as so black and white. I am not talking about panic, or completely throwing the game plan out. Just asking if maybe it would have been worth trying some different packages to get someone on the field that offered something different than R. Rodgers. Is that so crazy?

I bet we see less of R. Rodgers in the next game...

OK, we are getting caught up with semantics. An extended amount, to me, means more than now or more than just a potential injury sub. Planned snaps from a certain personnel group. Meaning Janis is part of the game plan. Could be 8 snaps, could be 3.

On RichRod again, I don't think we have seen evidence he is ready to throw in that towel. Rodgers was open about the same as Jones. But a 4 WR 1 RB formation is will get defensive personnel tilted very hard against the pass. So if Janis is out there, I will almost expect a run.

This isn't much like M3's normal game plan. He doesn't head fake on group and formation. If he wants to pass he goes spread or WR heavy. If he wants to run he goes heavy heavy. He will call a constraint play only when it suits what the defense is giving him. I don't see him developing a game plan like that. The closest he has come to this is liking his odds of running on nickel formations with 3 WR in certain down and distance.

[sharpe1027]

You're telling me they didn't even have a package ready for the game? Or just that they decided not to use it?

I am simply saying they might have benefited from a change. Hindsight is 20/20 and all, but you disagree that is possible?

[pbmax]

You're telling me they didn't even have a package ready for the game? Or just that they decided not to use it?

I am simply saying they might have benefited from a change. Hindsight is 20/20 and all, but you disagree that is possible?

A package for Janis? Doubtful.

A 4 WR 1 RB package? Probably, but with Monty not Janis or Abby. Given injury situation in game, I expect it was mothballed. More probably, 4 WR 1 RB package has morphed into 3WR 1TE 1RB.

However, there may be good news for you in the Panthers Week thread with M3's PC today.

[sharpe1027]

A package for Janis? Doubtful.

A 4 WR 1 RB package? Probably, but with Monty not Janis or Abby. Given injury situation in game, I expect it was mothballed. More probably, 4 WR 1 RB package has morphed into 3WR 1TE 1RB.

However, there may be good news for you in the Panthers Week thread with M3's PC today.

Well, I don't know their game planning, but I doubt they were incapable of going 4 wide, or just pulling Jones for a couple plays. Did they think it would help at the time? Clearly not, but that doesn't mean they aren't second guessing now.

[pbmax]

They could be, M3 said at his PC that is wasn't a good week for the TEs. But swapping Janis for Rodgers means more than a receiver is changing. I think there are two options there that you are combining into one.

Consideration 1: More snaps for Janis at WR, taking snaps from other WR.

Consideration 2: Reduced snaps for Rodgers. More possible. Perillo, Backman, tackling dummy? Just dumping that formation?

If Monty can't go, the Janis getting snaps might happen, regardless of judgement on Rodgers play.

[mraynrand]

You are the one expressing certainty about Janis's potential to help the offense. Those questioning "stay the course" want to see some new looks.

You are incorrect. I am only trying to understand what the coaches/Rodgers think, and what fans think.

As for me, I go back and forth regarding Janis. Maybe that's a reflection of my perception of his inconsistency. I'd like to think he can be a game changer, but I kinda doubt it, mostly because I think Rodgers doesn't trust him.

[mraynrand]

Wasn't Janis doing exactly what he was supposed to do when a play breaks down and Rodgers moves out of the pocket? He broke off his route and ran to an open area where Rodgers could see him. Rodgers claimed he was throwing to Janis, and I tend to believe him, just based on his normal accuracy even when moving. If he really intended it for R. Rodgers, it might have been about the most inaccurate throw from Rodgers that I can remember.

If it was to Dickrod, it was barely overthrown. I've seen several Dickrod overthrows, and I generally attribute it to Dickrod's slow gait and his imprecise route running. I think Rodgers is lying about throwing to Janis, but that's a guess.

[mraynrand]

I'd like to see more Perillo https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/14/Brewers1970logo.png/150px-Brewers1970logo.png

[Harlan Huckleby]

You are incorrect. I am only trying to understand what the coaches/Rodgers think, and what fans think.

As for me, I go back and forth regarding Janis. Maybe that's a reflection of my perception of his inconsistency. I'd like to think he can be a game changer, but I kinda doubt it, mostly because I think Rodgers doesn't trust him.

You mocked a strawman fan for thinking Janis is better than he is when even his most ardent supporters have not made any prediction about whether he'll cut it. We {sniff} just want to see what he can do.

After plainly suggesting that Janis is no damn good, you now claim to be skeptical, undecided; you share your inner turmoil.

You are a disgrace to the Packerrats organization. You have ten minutes to clean your desk out. A security guard will escort you to the parking lot.

[Bretsky]

I thought this thread would die when posters saw the words Janis and Conquers in the same sentence. Rodgers doesn't trust him because he runs sloppy routes and is not reliable. Hopefully get learns that part soon.
We really miss Montgomery....who IMO ran better routes then either Jones or that overrated(at this point) Fresno guy

[denverYooper]

A package for Janis? Doubtful.

A 4 WR 1 RB package? Probably, but with Monty not Janis or Abby. Given injury situation in game, I expect it was mothballed. More probably, 4 WR 1 RB package has morphed into 3WR 1TE 1RB.

However, there may be good news for you in the Panthers Week thread with M3's PC today.

They played Richard Rodgers all over the place on Sunday -- inline, out wide, blocking, receiving, motioning. He was moving all over the place. The other Rodgers looks for him too, so there's trust there. I have a feeling that they his role has been expanded a lot this year and will be a key piece in the 4 quarter of the season and beyond. He's not going to be Finley as a receiver, but he'll be a solid swiss army knife long term.

[Bretsky]

I think Rodgers is ok in he zone; but mano to mano I think he scares nobody and in general the AJ Hawk's of the world can cover him. We'll take a TE high in the draft next year. We really miss Finley. Vernon Davis could have given us that dimension down field. I also wished for Fleener but in reality he may not have helped that much.

[denverYooper]

I think Rodgers is ok in he zone; but mano to mano I think he scares nobody and in general the AJ Hawk's of the world can cover him. We'll take a TE high in the draft next year. We really miss Finley. Vernon Davis could have given us that dimension down field. I also wished for Fleener but in reality he may not have helped that much.

Yeah, I don't think he'll ever be a gamebreaking threat. But 12 likes to sling him some scotch and soda when he needs a safe throw. If Rodgers can get used to catching those (seems like most of his missed targets are up high), they might have their version of the back shoulder. Or, as someone else mentioned -- it'd be like RichRod posting up. That could be huge in the RZ if they get that worked out.

[Bretsky]

agree; RR is a good complimentary #2 TE to go with a more talented receiving TE who can stretch the field. He'll stick around for a while and I think Q will be gone soon.

[pbmax]

If he could take lessons from Jones about how to interpose his body between the defender and the QB, most questions would be answered.

[sharpe1027]

If he could take lessons from Jones about how to interpose his body between the defender and the QB, most questions would be answered.

He has poor body control. Not going to learn that over the weekend. Should have drafted a basketball player.

[pbmax]

He has poor body control. Not going to learn that over the weekend. Should have drafted a basketball player.

I don't know, I never played a receiver of any type, but that seems like the kind of thing you could teach. But it might be like rebounding, where some folks just have a knack for trailing the ball to the exact area it will bounce if the shot is missed. To me, it seems more like boxing out, which you would think you could learn.

[mraynrand]

You are a disgrace to the Packerrats organization.

From time to time, in all your blathering, you strike upon an eternal truth. I have to believe it is totally by accident.

[sharpe1027]

I don't know, I never played a receiver of any type, but that seems like the kind of thing you could teach. But it might be like rebounding, where some folks just have a knack for trailing the ball to the exact area it will bounce if the shot is missed. To me, it seems more like boxing out, which you would think you could learn.

IDK, name one guy in the NFL that made a significant improvement on their body control. Think of Gates or even Finley, you saw it right away. They used their body well in various different actions. Compare that the Quarless. He looked comparatively awkward from the start and he still does to this day. Has Quarless improved? Maybe, but certainly not leaps and bounds.

Anecdotal experience only, but boxing out is much more mechanical. You have can actively think about doing it still have time to find your man and get in his way. You are not doing much else at the same time. Even then, the longer someone has been trained to do it (and the younger the age) the more consistent they will be about it.

Using your body to shield while moving, tracking the ball and trying to catch it at the same time is more of an sub-conscious action and therefore is something that is learned through repetition over time. The earlier you learn that type of skill, generally the better you will be at it.

[pbmax]

I don't think this falls under body control, or at least what I think you mean by that term. I am talking about an active fight for position as the ball is throw or at the break of a route. Getting a guy on your hip or back or elbowing him as you turn past to look for the ball.

I don't care if he can high point the ball, juke, out jump or out time the defender. Put you body in the way of the defender getting to the path of the ball. If you intend to do it, then the bumping and jostling is not a surprise and you can reset you hands, arms and torso to catch the ball.

Jones learned to do it and so did Nelson, though Jones is better at it.

[mraynrand]

You mocked a strawman fan for thinking Janis is better than he is when even his most ardent supporters have not made any prediction about whether he'll cut it. We {sniff} just want to see what he can do.

After plainly suggesting that Janis is no damn good, you now claim to be skeptical, undecided; you share your inner turmoil.

I had to go back to the first page of this mess to recall what I'd written. These threads can metastasize. I admit to both: That Janis is 4/5 material only; that he is a bottom feeder who will never rise above Cory Bradford Status (if that's 'no damn good' then so be it). I also made the point I believe that he isn't playing more because of trust concerns; Rodgers doesn't trust him to do the right thing/make the right adjustments. And yes, although it is relatively minor, I have some 'inner turmoil' in that I could easily be wrong. I hope I am proved wrong, preferably by this weekend.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think this falls under body control, or at least what I think you mean by that term. I am talking about an active fight for position as the ball is throw or at the break of a route. Getting a guy on your hip or back or elbowing him as you turn past to look for the ball.

I don't care if he can high point the ball, juke, out jump or out time the defender. Put you body in the way of the defender getting to the path of the ball. If you intend to do it, then the bumping and jostling is not a surprise and you can reset you hands, arms and torso to catch the ball.

Jones learned to do it and so did Nelson, though Jones is better at it.

Not sure you can really separate them so cleanly. Those things you mention as not relevant all play a key role in shielding the ball. How else do you "put your body in the way of the defender?" It requires you to feel where the defender is, understand where the ball is coming in, and then control your body to continue to shield as the pass is coming in. If you just get yourself into position and are static, that's not nearly as effective.

If it were so easy to learn, NFL teams would be drafting guys with pure physical talents more often and training them up. Instead, you see a lot discussion on this type of thing in draft analysis.

Also, both Jordy and Jones were good basketball players.

[pbmax]

^All could be very true. I would think, however, that there are certain techniques and route running principles that would reinforce those skills.

I am not sure coming back for the ball against aggressive coverage on a stop or dig route is as much body control as it is attention to detail and practice. But you are probably right that much of it is improvisation.

[sharpe1027]

^All could be very true. I would think, however, that there are certain techniques and route running principles that would reinforce those skills.

I am not sure coming back for the ball against aggressive coverage on a stop or dig route is as much body control as it is attention to detail and practice. But you are probably right that much of it is improvisation.

Yeah, I agree you can always improve. I disagree that there is much likelihood of getting R. Rodgers anywhere in the zip code of Antonio Gates relative to shielding the ball. It is a matter of how much you can move the needle.

[Patler]

IDK, name one guy in the NFL that made a significant improvement on their body control. Think of Gates or even Finley, you saw it right away. They used their body well in various different actions. Compare that the Quarless. He looked comparatively awkward from the start and he still does to this day. Has Quarless improved? Maybe, but certainly not leaps and bounds.

Anecdotal experience only, but boxing out is much more mechanical. You have can actively think about doing it still have time to find your man and get in his way. You are not doing much else at the same time. Even then, the longer someone has been trained to do it (and the younger the age) the more consistent they will be about it.

Using your body to shield while moving, tracking the ball and trying to catch it at the same time is more of an sub-conscious action and therefore is something that is learned through repetition over time. The earlier you learn that type of skill, generally the better you will be at it.



Actually, I think Finley was a guy who DID improve dramatically. He didn't play a lot as a rookie, but when he did, he let DBs take the ball away from him several times, and in a close game when he failed to come up with a crucial catch, he blamed ARs accuracy, and said "I don't do no back shoulder."

[Pugger]

agree; RR is a good complimentary #2 TE to go with a more talented receiving TE who can stretch the field. He'll stick around for a while and I think Q will be gone soon.

RRodgers reminds me of Bubba Franks = slow of foot but decent in the red zone. RR has nice hands (he had a terrible game against Denver Sunday night).

[Pugger]

IDK, name one guy in the NFL that made a significant improvement on their body control. Think of Gates or even Finley, you saw it right away. They used their body well in various different actions. Compare that the Quarless. He looked comparatively awkward from the start and he still does to this day. Has Quarless improved? Maybe, but certainly not leaps and bounds.

Anecdotal experience only, but boxing out is much more mechanical. You have can actively think about doing it still have time to find your man and get in his way. You are not doing much else at the same time. Even then, the longer someone has been trained to do it (and the younger the age) the more consistent they will be about it.

Using your body to shield while moving, tracking the ball and trying to catch it at the same time is more of an sub-conscious action and therefore is something that is learned through repetition over time. The earlier you learn that type of skill, generally the better you will be at it.

At least Q can block...

[sharpe1027]

Actually, I think Finley was a guy who DID improve dramatically. He didn't play a lot as a rookie, but when he did, he let DBs take the ball away from him several times, and in a close game when he failed to come up with a crucial catch, he blamed ARs accuracy, and said "I don't do no back shoulder."

IDK, you could see his body control from the start. Certainly had issues with effort and mental early on. I think his improvement was more in those areas. His body control was touted in his draft profiles.

[Patler]

IDK, you could see his body control from the start. Certainly had issues with effort and mental early on. I think his improvement was more in those areas. His body control was touted in his draft profiles.

Body control as being generally athletic, but not as in using his body to get position against DBs. He mostly wanted to run past them.

[Patler]

RRodgers reminds me of Bubba Franks = slow of foot but decent in the red zone. RR has nice hands (he had a terrible game against Denver Sunday night).

Big difference is that when he was younger, Bubba Franks was a terrific blocker. RRodgers not so much.

[sharpe1027]

Body control as being generally athletic, but not as in using his body to get position against DBs. He mostly wanted to run past them.

The first is what I am talking about. The second is just desire. R. Rodgers doesn't seem to have the first, so he isn't going to learn it now.

[Harlan Huckleby]

https://ia601508.us.archive.org/25/items/Packers_TVV/TVV.mp3

Tim Van Vooren, the Packer beat writer for Fox Sports, comes very close to taking a whiff on Homer's show. Like Silverstein, he obviously wants to see more of Janis on the field.

[Patler]

Big difference is that when he was younger, Bubba Franks was a terrific blocker. RRodgers not so much.


The first is what I am talking about. The second is just desire. R. Rodgers doesn't seem to have the first, so he isn't going to learn it now.

But I think you can have the second even if challenged in the first.

[Patler]

Position coach's summary:


Quarless, according to Fontenot, is the fastest tight end on the roster. Backman and Perillo, he said, are a bit behind and reasonably close to each other in terms of speed.

"The other guys do a much better job of responding to visual cues from the quarterback," Fontenot said. "It's just from a lack of experience for (Backman) because everything happens so split-second on the field during a game."

[pbmax]

But I think you can have the second even if challenged in the first.

Agreed.

[pbmax]

Janis is the new backup quarterback.

[sharpe1027]

But I think you can have the second even if challenged in the first.

Sure, but I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Finley had the ability to use his body well, he just wasn't applying it to that aspect of his game - i.e., he just wanted to run past DBs. At some point that changed for the better. The light bulb went on for him.

R. Rodgers doesn't seem to have that same level of ability, so his problem is different from Finley's problem.

Let me ask it this way, do you think R. Rodgers will develop the same level of body control as Gates or Finley over the next year or so?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Janis is the new backup quarterback.

Backup??

[sharpe1027]

Backup??

Backup QB syndrome. Everyone wants to see him play, not based on his ability, but based on how poorly the guy in front of him plays.

For the record, I don't want to see Janis because of Janis, I wanted to see some adjustments made. An example would have been getting some different personnel out there.

[Patler]

Sure, but I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Finley had the ability to use his body well, he just wasn't applying it to that aspect of his game - i.e., he just wanted to run past DBs. At some point that changed for the better. The light bulb went on for him.

R. Rodgers doesn't seem to have that same level of ability, so his problem is different from Finley's problem.

Let me ask it this way, do you think R. Rodgers will develop the same level of body control as Gates or Finley over the next year or so?

Body control? That relates more to the ability to make off balance, acrobatic catches. Really doesn't have a lot to do with being able to screen out defenders and make the type of contested catches that typical TEs see. While Finley was fairly athletic, I don't think he excelled at using that athleticism to make those types of catches. He simply was able to get away from defenders based on his combination of size, quickness and speed.

Making contested catches by gaining superior position against a defender is based more on timing and awareness than anything else. Knowing where the defenders are, seeing or sensing when and where the ball will arrive, and achieving preferred position at just the right time. Do it too early and the defender can recover, do it too late and you don't have it. Some have compared it to rebounding. While a high degree of athleticism can help, you can be a good rebounder without it; and being highly athletic does not mean that you will be a good rebounder.

So, what aspects are we talking about? If it is making contested catches with superior positioning, being a strong red zone target, I think R. Rodgers can be as valuable or even more valuable than Finley was, because his hands are so much better, and reportedly he is a more disciplined route runner.

[Patler]

Backup QB syndrome. Everyone wants to see him play, not based on his ability, but based on how poorly the guy in front of him plays.

For the record, I don't want to see Janis because of Janis, I wanted to see some adjustments made. An example would have been getting some different personnel out there.

I am not disappointed in the others, they are what we should have known they are. I would first like to see Adams healthy for a few weeks, because the coaches and QB are adamant that he will make a difference. I want to see Janis because I think he might be able to do some things the others can not, and I want to see where he is at development-wise.

[sharpe1027]

Body control? That relates more to the ability to make off balance, acrobatic catches. Really doesn't have a lot to do with being able to screen out defenders and make the type of contested catches that typical TEs see. While Finley was fairly athletic, I don't think he excelled at using that athleticism to make those types of catches. He simply was able to get away from defenders based on his combination of size, quickness and speed.

Making contested catches by gaining superior position against a defender is based more on timing and awareness than anything else. Knowing where the defenders are, seeing or sensing when and where the ball will arrive, and achieving preferred position at just the right time. Do it too early and the defender can recover, do it too late and you don't have it. Some have compared it to rebounding. While a high degree of athleticism can help, you can be a good rebounder without it; and being highly athletic does not mean that you will be a good rebounder.

So, what aspects are we talking about? If it is making contested catches with superior positioning, being a strong red zone target, I think R. Rodgers can be as valuable or even more valuable than Finley was, because his hands are so much better, and reportedly he is a more disciplined route runner.

Who said anything about a red zone target? We were talking about R. Rodgers improving relative to the Denver game and there wasn't much in terms of red zone opportunities. :) PB made a comment about RR learning from Jones and I said he wasn't going to learn his body control over the weekend.

I am not sure where you are going with this. I think it will take awhile before we see marked improvement. Maybe I am wrong.

[sharpe1027]

I am not disappointed in the others, they are what we should have known they are. I would first like to see Adams healthy for a few weeks, because the coaches and QB are adamant that he will make a difference. I want to see Janis because I think he might be able to do some things the others can not, and I want to see where he is at development-wise.

Yes.

[Smidgeon]

IDK, you could see his body control from the start. Certainly had issues with effort and mental early on. I think his improvement was more in those areas. His body control was touted in his draft profiles.

In 2009, Finley had elite body control. He could contort his body to such an effect that it made him an unstoppable weapon. Of course, he got injured and lost something, maybe confidence? Regardless, while he had some (and I remember similarly to Patler), it wasn't 2009 good his rookie year. It did improve dramatically.

[Smidgeon]

Big difference is that when he was younger, Bubba Franks was a terrific blocker. RRodgers not so much.

Also that Bubba was super effective in the red zone. Thus far, RailRoad has yet to establish that dominance.

[pbmax]

No one fell down* at the goal line, then got back up to catch a TD pass like Bubba Franks.


*Mostly on purpose

[sharpe1027]

In 2009, Finley had elite body control. He could contort his body to such an effect that it made him an unstoppable weapon. Of course, he got injured and lost something, maybe confidence? Regardless, while he had some (and I remember similarly to Patler), it wasn't 2009 good his rookie year. It did improve dramatically.

My recollection was that he showed flashes of some pretty outstanding stuff right from the gate, he just took awhile to develop consistency and was also helped when the Packers game planned specifically to use his skills and get him the ball. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought his improvement was more about consistency and effort than about body control.

Some pre-draft analysis:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jermichael-finley?id=1072

. A sure-handed pass catcher with the body control and competitiveness to make the tough catch and the athleticism to make defenders miss,


Rare body control for a player his size. ... Can contort in the air to adjust to the poorly thrown pass. ... Good leaping ability and can high-point the pass. ... Competes well for the ball

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/584640

Has large, natural hands, with good timing and arm extension to compete for the ball at its high point … Shows no flinch going up for the ball in a crowd … Very fluid getting his head and body adjusted to make off-target catches and has good balance to keep his feet in bounds when working near the sideline

[Harlan Huckleby]

Janis is the new backup quarterback.

Sure, same sorta deal. But the difference is that replacing the QB is a giant shift. Giving Janis 10 to 15 snaps per game can be done easily with little opportunity cost or risk, despite your hand wringing to contrary. At worst, Janis can not-get-open on some shallow routes as well as the others, and he presents a deep threat. The receiver position cries out for experimentation, adjustment.

[Patler]

Sure, same sorta deal. But the difference is that replacing the QB is a giant shift. Giving Janis 10 to 15 snaps per game can be done easily with little opportunity cost or risk, despite your hand wringing to contrary. At worst, Janis can not-get-open on some shallow routes as well as the others, and he presents a deep threat. The receiver position cries out for experimentation, adjustment.

10-15 snaps per game might be a lot to expect when they are getting only 45 snaps/game! :lol:

But in a more normal game, I agree. Or at least 5-10. The fact that the coaches haven't been willing to do that with either Janis or Abrederis doesn't speak well of where either one is at right now.

[Maxie the Taxi]

10-15 snaps per game might be a lot to expect when they are getting only 45 snaps/game! :lol:

But in a more normal game, I agree. Or at least 5-10. The fact that the coaches haven't been willing to do that with either Janis or Abrederis doesn't speak well of where either one is at right now.

Or it speaks to Stubby's stubborn trust in process and system, or to Arod's lack of trust in them for some f***ing reason.

[Patler]

Or it speaks to Stubby's stubborn trust in process and system, or to Arod's lack of trust in them for some f***ing reason.

I'm not sure where the A. Rodgers trust issue comes from. He has said things about Janis needing to show more in practice, but for the few times Janis has been on the field he has thrown to him a reasonable amount. I don't think there is a trust issue with the QB, because Rodgers hasn't avoided him. In fact, for the little Janis has played, his opportunities have been a lot.

The coaches are another issue. They have to be forced almost to involve someone new midseason.

[denverYooper]

Richard Rodgers - 7 games in to his 2nd year 23 rec/205 yds/8.9 ypc/2 TD
Bubba Franks - 16 games in his 2nd year - 36 rec/322 yds/8.9 ypc/9 TD

Franks's best year was his 3rd - 54 rec/442 yds/8.2 ypc/7 TD

Rodgers is very close in the receiving department. All it would take for him to be close to Franks's amazing TD numbers is 1 or 2 multiple TD games. It wouldn't be a huge stretch for that to happen this year.

[denverYooper]

As for blocking... I think Richard Rodgers is suffering due to an immediacy bias.

If it wasn't for having a lot of responsibility for Ware and, at the nadir of this game, getting motioned to block(??) Ware on the safety, we might not be having this discussion about his blocking. It looked like everyone but Aaron Rodgers on that safety play thought it was a run left to Starks until AR pulled the ball back in. I was right behind the play, sitting in that endzone. It was a mess on multiple levels.

Maybe A. Rodgers and the receiver had a play on, but they were the only ones who thought so. Everyone else was really going after that run left, including for a second, Richard Rodgers. Kuhn could have stepped up to Ware also, but he looked equally confused when Aaron still had the ball and Ware was bearing down.

At least DickRod had the presence of mind to try to block and then to get on the ball... even if it looked pitiful when he took the safety.

[pbmax]

I forgot about that fake/mesh on that play. I wonder how M3 felt about play action or option that close to the goal line.

[pbmax]

Last Janis thought:

When he has seen the field with Rodgers, how many passes has he caught during the course of the play? That is, when he has been running the called route, how often has Rodgers gone to him? Not a trick question, I think he has (once, maybe twice) but I don't really remember.

The two big catches he does have were both on broken plays.

Would you, as a coach put out a player who is not getting open on his called route, but can make plays once things breakdown? Does deciding Janis is your best weapon outside of a double-teamed Cobb mean you alter the offense for him?

[deake]

I think the question is, did Rodgers go to him when he was open on a route, on the one broken play it was a crossing route where he was open early on and Rodgers didn't go to him until it was a busted play. I remember one time when Rodgers did go to him on a back shoulder throw, where the db out muscled Janis.

[Patler]

Last Janis thought:

When he has seen the field with Rodgers, how many passes has he caught during the course of the play? That is, when he has been running the called route, how often has Rodgers gone to him? Not a trick question, I think he has (once, maybe twice) but I don't really remember.

The two big catches he does have were both on broken plays.

Would you, as a coach put out a player who is not getting open on his called route, but can make plays once things breakdown? Does deciding Janis is your best weapon outside of a double-teamed Cobb mean you alter the offense for him?

The same was written about Cobb last year. Remember the article about how much he should be worth, the one that noted how few receptions/yards he had on designed plays? Most were from broken plays. Maybe that's where the Packers are with this receiving group. Let Rodgers buy time while receivers ad lib.

[pbmax]

The same was written about Cobb last year. Remember the article about how much he should be worth, the one that noted how few receptions/yards he had on designed plays? Most were from broken plays. Maybe that's where the Packers are with this receiving group. Let Rodgers buy time while receivers ad lib.

I think this also explains the trouble some of them have with beating man coverage.

[Smidgeon]

Last Janis thought:

When he has seen the field with Rodgers, how many passes has he caught during the course of the play? That is, when he has been running the called route, how often has Rodgers gone to him? Not a trick question, I think he has (once, maybe twice) but I don't really remember.

The two big catches he does have were both on broken plays.

Would you, as a coach put out a player who is not getting open on his called route, but can make plays once things breakdown? Does deciding Janis is your best weapon outside of a double-teamed Cobb mean you alter the offense for him?

That was why I argued against the fuckdoggle for Janis that week, but I was convinced otherwise simply because he produced.

[Pugger]

Did Janis play on offense yesterday? I must've missed him...

[Smidgeon]

He did. But mostly as a blocker.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Did Janis play on offense yesterday? I must've missed him...Three snaps on offense. Same for Abby. No targeted throws to either.

[Pugger]

Three snaps on offense. Same for Abby. No targeted throws to either.

Oh, okay. I didn't notice. Perhaps they'll get more snaps next week.

[Patler]

Oh, okay. I didn't notice. Perhaps they'll get more snaps next week.

We can only hope so. As someone else wrote, Rodgers needs more guys he won't throw to.

[Pugger]

We can only hope so. As someone else wrote, Rodgers needs more guys he won't throw to.

:lol: :cry:

[pbmax]

Not sure Abby falls into that category. Rodgers really liked him in camp last year.

[smuggler]

How is that possible? Abby tore his ACL in the first practice last year....

[Joemailman]

How is that possible? Abby tore his ACL in the first practice last year....

Abby got a concussion in the 1st practice this year. He practiced several days before the ACL injury last year.

[Smidgeon]

At last, all is revealed:


“We always push every day for him to be more consistent in his (route) depths,” Van Pelt said. “The big thing is just being on the same page as the quarterback. He needs to gain Aaron’s trust more and more every day, and that starts in practice.”

He knows the offense and can catch the ball, but his routes are inconsistent [enough to make neither the staff nor Rodgers confident he'll be where they expect him to be when the ball is thrown; in an offense where the QB gets rid of the ball often before a break, that's important].

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/11/14/packers-should-give-janis-shot/75708114/

[Maxie the Taxi]

At last, all is revealed:



He knows the offense and can catch the ball, but his routes are inconsistent [enough to make neither the staff nor Rodgers confident he'll be where they expect him to be when the ball is thrown; in an offense where the QB gets rid of the ball often before a break, that's important].

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/11/14/packers-should-give-janis-shot/75708114/

:doh:That's why he can't go deep. He's only got 10 fingers and 10 toes!

[pbmax]

From that article:

I get that teams can’t play receivers who make repeated mental mistakes in practice. We saw that last year with tight end Brandon Bostick. He was the Packers’ most athletic tight end but couldn’t get on the field because the coaching staff and Aaron Rodgers didn’t trust him. Bostick’s botched recovery of the onside kick in the NFC title game told us everything we needed to know there. They were right not to play him.

That is kind of brutal. Play the kid, even if he is a little like Brandon Bostick.

Still, he has made more plays in the regular season with one game of significant action than Bostick did in three years. So the upside is probably higher with Janis.

[Pugger]

Janis is better on ST than Bostick ever was. ;-)

[pbmax]

“We always push every day for him to be more consistent in his (route) depths,” Van Pelt said. “The big thing is just being on the same page as the quarterback. He needs to gain Aaron’s trust more and more every day, and that starts in practice.”

I think Dougherty might be wrong in interpreting this quote. He is saying its precise route running but I think it might be simpler. He could be improvising. Moving to get himself open outside the parameters of the play call. If he was the #1 receiver on his college team, the team and QB would be more forgiving.

Not sure I buy that the Packers have been too hesitant to start young players. The entire roster is filled with people who played young. But vets do get the first shot if they perform in camp.

[Rutnstrut]

The thing is some guys are just gamers and play lights out in a game and are mediocre in practice. You have to give the guy a chance, and Rodgers has to get off his high horse and trust some of these young/new guys.

[Pugger]

The thing is some guys are just gamers and play lights out in a game and are mediocre in practice. You have to give the guy a chance, and Rodgers has to get off his high horse and trust some of these young/new guys.

Yes, there are loads of players in the league who play great on game day but not so much during the week. But if Jeff isn't running the correct route and isn't where AR expects him to be in these games chances are slim Rodgers will throw it there. We have seen Janis ad lib when Rodgers has to scramble outside the pocket as the other WRs do.

[smuggler]

Matthews with two straight batted passes. :)

[Harlan Huckleby]

All hail He Who Conquers

[Maxie the Taxi]

Patler just about dreamed up what happened two weeks ago. Must have been on acid.

[mraynrand]

Janis stepped up big and they threw it all away

[Patler]

Patler just about dreamed up what happened two weeks ago. Must have been on acid.

Had the Packers won, I wonder if either Adams or Cobb would have been available next week.

[mraynrand]

Had the Packers won, I wonder if either Adams or Cobb would have been available next week.

who knows. It would have been interesting to see Perillo lined up as the slot receiver.