McGinn trashes Packer leaders, Rob Davis, Packers fans and WI media

[Patler]

He complains about the Packers taking a holier than thou attitude.
Isn't he taking that for himself in this piece?

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-not-above-the-fray-of-win-at-all-costs-mentality-b99604933z1-339139291.html

[Rastak]

He complains about the Packers taking a holier than thou attitude.
Isn't he taking that for himself in this piece?

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-not-above-the-fray-of-win-at-all-costs-mentality-b99604933z1-339139291.html


Davis does sound like an asshole.

[Teamcheez1]

McGinn can be one of the first casualties in the newspaper merger. No great loss.

[Patler]

Davis does sound like an asshole.

Maybe, but again we are hearing only one side of the incident. One version is seldom accurate in trial testimony by actual witnesses, even less in third party opinion writing. Davis may have done something, likely not as sinister as McGinn's description.

[Rastak]

As a Vikings fan the only thing that was real interesting to me was the source on Guion (true, not sure of course) who said Zimmer came in and determined he was both a turd and a dummy and said "not on my defense", so to speak and he was cut. I have to admit I was a little surprised because he'd flash a great play here and there but was REALLY inconsistent.

[Rastak]

Maybe, but again we are hearing only one side of the incident. One version is seldom accurate in trial testimony by actual witnesses, even less in third party opinion writing. Davis may have done something, likely not as sinister as McGinn's description.


Not sure even what McGinn described was sinister.....just kind of low class. Like you said, it's just the two guys stories I presume. Maybe Davis shook his hand and asked him out for a beer.


"Enabling players is a way of life across the league. Where once a failed drug test for marijuana in college was an enormous red flag, teams couldn't compete today if they erased everyone with a positive test on their résumé"

Edit, just added that quote from McGinn. He's 100% right, just ask Jerry Jones....who wants to sign Greg Hardy to an extension after all the shit he's tied to fights with a coach on the sideline.

[Patler]

Not sure even what McGinn described was sinister.....just kind of low class. Like you said, it's just the two guys stories I presume. Maybe Davis shook his hand and asked him out for a beer.

All depends on one's understanding of sinister, I guess. Whatever it is that McGinn described, I doubt Davis' actions were as "whatever" as McGinn described it.

Besides, McGinn's primary purpose these days seems to be trying to show up the Packers whenever possible, whether it is drafting, signing, management, game plans, anything they do. In my opinion, his own "better than thou" attitude has tainted his writing. I take all his "stories" with a grain of salt, especially when he centers a story around a statement of "I would have...." or "I would not have..." The Packers, WI media, the fans; he trashed all of them in this article.

The Packers have never been short of questionable characters. They are common on rosters in all pro sports, not just the NFL. It has always been that way.

[mraynrand]

"Enabling players is a way of life across the league. Where once a failed drug test for marijuana in college was an enormous red flag, teams couldn't compete today if they erased everyone with a positive test on their résumé"

NFL just reflects the irrationality of our society - mary jane legalization is being pushed everywhere by the same idiots who hate second-hand smoke, yet football players are supposed to be pristine. Except when they're not, which is rampant, so it's OK. lunacy.

[George Cumby]

Boy,oh boy. Ol' Bobby's got an axe to grind, doesn't he?

No surprise the Pack takes on some questionable characters. all teams do. As Bobby Boy says, a team of choir boys don't cut it. The Packers, however, do a better job than most teams of managing their bad apples. Brandon Underwood as exhibit one. Dumb shit fucks up and he's gone. That happens a lot. Had Algeria gotten the DUI while in his "probationary" period, I'll bet he would have been gone, too.

The whole deal with Davis and Cohen sounds funky. McGinnns take sounds hyperbolic. Davis may have been vibing Cohen, but outright intimidation? I dunno.

Aaaaaaand it's on PFT:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/31/report-packers-official-tried-to-intimidate-journalist-over-letroy-guion-story/#comments

[mraynrand]

McGinn can fuck off. For a guy who prides himself on statistics and analysis, the article is a total collection of anecdotes. He throws a bone towards the Packers at the end, vaguely mentioning more 'troubled' or permissive franchises, yet attempts no serious statistical comparison. Yet his central conclusion is that the Packers foster a 'Packer Way' front, but are no different than most teams. OK, so back it up. Right or wrong, Bob needed to have a comprehensive comparison to the league, not a string of 4-5 anecdotes from the past 5 years. Piss off Bob.

[Striker]

Coming soon...every Packer player gives the "Marshawn Lynch" treatment to the JS beat reporters.

[mraynrand]

Coming soon...every Packer player gives the "Marshawn Lynch" treatment to the JS beat reporters.

They already don't talk to McGinn. That's why all his quotes after the game are from Ted Thompson.

[George Cumby]

Rand, it's kind of hot when you get yer panties in a wad......

[Striker]

A lot of Packers players have had run ins with the law (just like the rest of the NFL).

Cedric Benson, Koren Robinson, Erik Walden, Jolly, Underwood, Havner Nick Barnett, Carroll. Just to name a few.

It's a league of young men who come into sudden fame and wealth. Some make small mistakes. Some make huge mistakes. Hopefully on balance you can keep more good citizens around than bad ones. Bet small on the character risks with high ceilings and pass on the ones that would take a huge investment.

This whole thing seems like a "revenge" piece to deter any snubbing of the new guy on the block. It'll be interesting to see if there are any repercussions league wide with regards to Bob's many sources with this fun little article (and just in time to possibly feature on the SNF lead in).

Also, if that's "bullying" or "intimidation", Cohen is in the wrong line of work. Imagine what would happen if he were working the political beat?

[Striker]

They already don't talk to McGinn. That's why all his quotes after the game are from Ted Thompson.

I used to have a lot of respect for McGinn. A few years ago though it seemed like he decided "fuck it, I'll just write what I think is the most click bait worthy". Going from "The Packers can win without Aaron Rodgers" to "The Packers are fucked" and generally just swaying whatever way popular opinion takes him.

[mraynrand]

I'm surprised Bob didn't mention Ahman Green punching a pillow, screaming and frightening his GF.

[mraynrand]

Rand, it's kind of hot when you get yer panties in a wad......

Are you saying I should have a cautious lip?

[sharpe1027]

Holy crap that was so bad. Why would he think anyone cares what he would have done? How is that relevant? It is so obviously written with an agenda that it is hard to take any of it seriously. He did Cohen no favors with that article. Poor judgement. You'd think an experienced writer would know enough not to overstate your position and not to alienate the people you are trying to convince.

[Striker]

An interesting (though completely conjectured) take is that Cohen's "out of the blue" article and McGinn's follow up could be an attempt to prove to the new brass at Gannett that the Milwaukee based Packers beat reporters aren't expendable, especially since Gannett owns the GBPG and could spin off coverage to them (or vice versa) as layoffs are likely once the purchase is complete.

[George Cumby]

The Packers internal policy seems to be to allow the legal and league systems to run their course and the deal with the player themselves.. By doing this, they are consistent with their treatment of their players, somethingGoodell could take notes on.

Doing so can be frustrating; IMO, Q should have been fired for pure stupidity, but it is consistent so players (and fans)know what to expect.

[smuggler]

In three years we're going to find out McGinn has early onset Alzheimer's and feel reaalll bad. :/

[Patler]

An interesting (though completely conjectured) take is that Cohen's "out of the blue" article and McGinn's follow up could be an attempt to prove to the new brass at Gannett that the Milwaukee based Packers beat reporters aren't expendable, especially since Gannett owns the GBPG and could spin off coverage to them (or vice versa) as layoffs are likely once the purchase is complete.


I was thinking the same thing. He tried to define the JS staff as different from the other WI media with these statements:


The majority of fans think the Packers can do no wrong, or at the very least deserve the benefit of every doubt. The team's decision-makers are well aware of this, and thus are able to make whatever moves they want confident they will be supported in the court of public opinion and by the largely benign media corps in Wisconsin.
...

I made the point that Lyerla had no business being on an NFL roster, especially a community-owned team such as the Packers.

In a series of rebuttal messages and emails, what I assumed to be mostly Packers fans blistered me for refusing to afford Lyerla, a player with the obvious physical skills to help the Packers, a second chance. I saw it as a fourth or fifth chance, and Green Bay should not be a halfway house.
...

Would I have offered Guion continued employment in Green Bay this spring knowing what I know now? Not a chance.

Coupled with the "aren't we tough" description of Cohen standing up to Packer intimidation, he seemed to be promoting their staff has hard hitting journalists, in contrast to the "largely benign media corps in Wisconsin".

[red]

i liked it

and i really agree with the statement that "The majority of fans think the Packers can do no wrong, or at the very least deserve the benefit of every doubt. The team's decision-makers are well aware of this, and thus are able to make whatever moves they want confident they will be supported in the court of public opinion and by the largely benign media corps in Wisconsin."

i call it "head up the ass syndrome". we could go 0-16, and there will be many fans saying "we don't need to change what we're doing, we're going in the right direction"

yeah, mcginn sounds like a pissed off guy who knows he's about to lose his job, but IMO, he makes some good point

[CaptainD]

I will bite because apparently GB can do no wrong.

Read this part :


These incidents and others involving Guion were presented to the team by the Journal Sentinel about a month before publication.
Through a team publicist, general manager Ted Thompson and coach Mike McCarthy declined to comment. Through another team publicist last week, team president Mark Murphy declined to answer questions regarding Guion.
On Monday morning, McCarthy didn't answer directly when asked when he learned of the criminal charges from domestic violence incidents faced by Guion.
McCarthy used the word "garbage" to describe his reaction to the impeccably reported, balanced account.

GB received the info a month BEFORE the story was written, then MM makes a smart ass comment ? Seriously ?

The dumb ass hits his GF in the jaw and it's OK because it's 3 years ago ? No gentleman it's not ok to hit a women ...ever.

Now before you get high and mighty on JS and staff better read this little gem from the NY Times today about Domestic Abuse.... which has a former Packer and his X in it.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/sports/wives-in-domestic-abuse-cases-say-nfl-culture-made-them-feel-trapped.html?_r=2&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtmj.com%2Fsports%2Fgreen-bay-packers%2Fguion-domestic-violence-packers-people


The messenger is not the problem here. But many fans will shoot the messenger because they feel the organization is beyond reproach. Yes it's not just in this case but in many others also.

And many fans will continue to blast other organizations for transactions. But refuse to look in the mirror when the green Bay Packers do business the same way. And you can't have it both ways.

As was mentioned in the article pro football is a filthy business. As dirty in green Bay as it is in Dallas or Seattle. Hate me..blast me whatever but GB isn't as squeaky clean as many believe.

[red]

I will bite because apparently GB can do no wrong.

Read this part :



GB received the info a month BEFORE the story was written, then MM makes a smart ass comment ? Seriously ?

The dumb ass hits his GF in the jaw and it's OK because it's 3 years ago ? No gentleman it's not ok to hit a women ...ever.

Now before you get high and mighty on JS and staff better read this little gem from the NY Times today about Domestic Abuse.... which has a former Packer and his X in it.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/sports/wives-in-domestic-abuse-cases-say-nfl-culture-made-them-feel-trapped.html?_r=2&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtmj.com%2Fsports%2Fgreen-bay-packers%2Fguion-domestic-violence-packers-people


The messenger is not the problem here. But many fans will shoot the messenger because they feel the organization is beyond reproach. Yes it's not just in this case but in many others also.

And many fans will continue to blast other organizations for transactions. But refuse to look in the mirror when the green Bay Packers do business the same way. And you can't have it both ways.

As was mentioned in the article pro football is a filthy business. As dirty in green Bay as it is in Dallas or Seattle. Hate me..blast me whatever but GB isn't as squeaky clean as many believe.

where have you been my whole life?

[ThunderDan]

i call it "head up the ass syndrome". we could go 0-16, and there will be many fans saying "we don't need to change what we're doing, we're going in the right direction"



Do you really believe that? That is a bunch of bs.

More funny coming from the guy who when we throw to incompletions in a row screams we have abandoned the run and when we run twice in a row for 3 yards screams we aren't using the MVP of the NFL enough.

Packer fans bitch when we make the playoffs 7 years in a row. With 3 NFC Championship games and 1 Super Bowl win.

[Pugger]

I will bite because apparently GB can do no wrong.

Read this part :



GB received the info a month BEFORE the story was written, then MM makes a smart ass comment ? Seriously ?

The dumb ass hits his GF in the jaw and it's OK because it's 3 years ago ? No gentleman it's not ok to hit a women ...ever.

Now before you get high and mighty on JS and staff better read this little gem from the NY Times today about Domestic Abuse.... which has a former Packer and his X in it.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/sports/wives-in-domestic-abuse-cases-say-nfl-culture-made-them-feel-trapped.html?_r=2&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtmj.com%2Fsports%2Fgreen-bay-packers%2Fguion-domestic-violence-packers-people


The messenger is not the problem here. But many fans will shoot the messenger because they feel the organization is beyond reproach. Yes it's not just in this case but in many others also.

And many fans will continue to blast other organizations for transactions. But refuse to look in the mirror when the green Bay Packers do business the same way. And you can't have it both ways.

As was mentioned in the article pro football is a filthy business. As dirty in green Bay as it is in Dallas or Seattle. Hate me..blast me whatever but GB isn't as squeaky clean as many believe.

So we have a couple of players who aren't choir boys so that makes the entire team dirty? Its fun to call out other teams but we all know a few bad apples on a team doesn't mean a franchise is littered with felons.

[sharpe1027]

Nobody believes the Packers are squeaky clean. This is not some major scoop. It is what we all already know. As many have already said, its not much different than any other job. If someone stands to make you a lot of money, things get overlooked. Like it or hate it, that's the reality. If you don't like it the best option is to stop watching, otherwise you are contributing to the problem.

[red]

Do you really believe that? That is a bunch of bs.

More funny coming from the guy who when we throw to incompletions in a row screams we have abandoned the run and when we run twice in a row for 3 yards screams we aren't using the MVP of the NFL enough.

Packer fans bitch when we make the playoffs 7 years in a row. With 3 NFC Championship games and 1 Super Bowl win.

and the head up the ass people will bitch about those posters whenever they say anything even remotely negative about the team, or question anything the team does or doesn't do.

case in point, it pissed you off so much that someone would question the play calling, that it managed to stick in your head long after the fact.

bet you just seethe at the thought of someone thinking the playcalling might have been wrong?

[Pugger]

There is nothing wrong with being negative and pointing out poor play and/or execution. But that too can be overdone, especially if the team is having some success.

[red]

Nobody believes the Packers are squeaky clean. This is not some major scoop. It is what we all already know. As many have already said, its not much different than any other job. If someone stands to make you a lot of money, things get overlooked. Like it or hate it, that's the reality. If you don't like it the best option is to stop watching, otherwise you are contributing to the problem.

thats the point of the article that i agree with. i would say the majority of packer fans think the team IS squeaky clean, or stands on a higher moral platform then other teams do

all you have to do to find proof is to read some message boards or the replies to any story about the team

many packer fans are delusional to the point that its almost embarrassing IMO

[sharpe1027]

thats the point of the article that i agree with. i would say the majority of packer fans think the team IS squeaky clean, or stands on a higher moral platform then other teams do

all you have to do to find proof is to read some message boards or the replies to any story about the team

many packer fans are delusional to the point that its almost embarrassing IMO

Making blanket statements about a fan base based on message board posts is comical.

[Joemailman]

The Packers have never claimed that they are above giving a chance to a player with off field issues. Ever. What they have refused to do is make big investments in terms of high draft picks or large multi-year contracts to such players. They're not going to put the organization at risk with moves like that. McGinn claims in his article that the Packers cultivate a holier-than -thou image. I don't really see any evidence of that.

If Rob Davis is trying to intimidate reporters who write negative things, that's an issue that has to be dealt with.

[red]

Making blanket statements about a fan base based on message board posts is comical.

so is the fact that if you say anything even remotely negative about the team, you better be ready for a fight because your about to be attacked by the masses

[ThunderDan]

and the head up the ass people will bitch about those posters whenever they say anything even remotely negative about the team, or question anything the team does or doesn't do.

case in point, it pissed you off so much that someone would question the play calling, that it managed to stick in your head long after the fact.

bet you just seethe at the thought of someone thinking the playcalling might have been wrong?

Nope, that isn't what gets to me. I use to be just like that. Second guessing every play and call.

It took a while but soon realized that the people running every NFL organization have much more knowledge and experience than I will ever have about football. Then the other shoe dropped that we know 1/10 of what is actually happening with the Packers in any given season. We get to see the games and the postgame analysis. Then we get news articles that either confirm or discard our biases. That is the only information we know about the team. We aren't in the meeting rooms or the practice fields. We see the finished product and very little about how it came together.

Now, when they is an area of concern I will voice my dislike. Like the clusterfuck on special teams and how we hired the Zookeeper who was the assistant last year.

[ThunderDan]

so is the fact that if you say anything even remotely negative about the team, you better be ready for a fight because your about to be attacked by the masses

Fan is short for fanatic. Anytime when someone opens their mouth on a fan site one should be prepared. Fuck, look at this place with the Favre/TT fiasco.

[sharpe1027]

so is the fact that if you say anything even remotely negative about the team, you better be ready for a fight because your about to be attacked by the masses

BS. This is a strawman argument. I hear negative stuff about the team from fans as much as positive. Now, if you make extreme statements over and over, repeating the same narrative, yeah people will tend to disagree with you.

[Joemailman]

i call it "head up the ass syndrome". we could go 0-16, and there will be many fans saying "we don't need to change what we're doing, we're going in the right direction"


so is the fact that if you say anything even remotely negative about the team, you better be ready for a fight because your about to be attacked by the masses

When you make comments as stupid as the first quote, there's a chance you'll be attacked by the masses, or at least a few.

[red]

i honestly think you're selling yourself short dan. i would say you probably DO know more then some of the people in the business

take rob davis from the article. he's the "director of player engagement" (whatever the hell that is). anyways, its a front office job for an NFL team. is he smarter then you or me? probably not. so what qualifies him for a job like that? well he played in the NFL, thats a big one, but the only thing he did in his career is the one thing that i have felt for along time is the most worthless job on an nfl team

long snapping

like many in the nfl, he got his job because of who he knows, and because he was a well respected member of the team, not because he knows more about the game the anyone else

and someday he might just get promoted, and promoted again

doesn't mean that guy knows more or is smarter that some fans out there

[ThunderDan]

i honestly think you're selling yourself short dan. i would say you probably DO know more then some of the people in the business

take rob davis from the article. he's the "director of player engagement" (whatever the hell that is). anyways, its a front office job for an NFL team. is he smarter then you or me? probably not. so what qualifies him for a job like that? well he played in the NFL, thats a big one, but the only thing he did in his career is the one thing that i have felt for along time is the most worthless job on an nfl team

long snapping

like many in the nfl, he got his job because of who he knows, and because he was a well respected member of the team, not because he knows more about the game the anyone else

and someday he might just get promoted, and promoted again

doesn't mean that guy knows more or is smarter that some fans out there

While I might be smarter than some of the Packer coaches and front office (never met any for more then a minute) I certainly don't have the experience they do. I watch 12 hours of football a week and blog for a bit. They are doing this 80+ hours a week during the season and 40+ for the 3 off months of the year. That experience and the hands-on knowledge of being in the building is something that can't be overlooked.

if I was hired by the Packers I am sure after seeing what really goes on inside the building I would be like, "shit, I got a lot of work to do to get up to speed here." Not saying I couldn't do the job but there would be a lot to learn.

[Joemailman]

As the director of player engagement, Davis is vital in maintaining locker-room cohesiveness and overall player health. He assists players in acclimating to their roles, both on and off the field and in the Green Bay community.

Davis also oversees the Packers’ wide range of programs designed to meet the needs of players and their families in today’s NFL. The department provides a framework of assistance within which players and their immediate family members can address the pressures created by daily life and complicated by the demands of playing professional football. The program is also set up to get players prepared for life after football, and helps players seek educational and vocational opportunities. Davis also developed a mentorship program, aimed at joining Packers players with community leaders who serve as professional mentors.

Davis is the organization's guy for working with players on any and all off field issues. As such, he's probably been working closely with Guion, especially since his arrest. As a player, I recall Davis had a good reputation in the locker room, despite being just a special teams guy.

[George Cumby]

This is a good argument. I like it. But we should define what it is we are arguing about and the subject matter is multi layered and nuanced.

One layer is McGinn and Cohen are trying to save their jobs.

Another point is the fan base consists of a bunch of sheep who don't care what the organization does or how unethical the organization is.

Another is that the organization is as odious and unethical as all the other teams and will pay the dregs of society provided they help the team.

Another is that Rob Davis is a thug, a mafia-type enforcer.

What else am I missing?

[pbmax]

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! Now where are my winnings?

I do agree with Bob that the Packers failure to say anything after the report is pretty poor form. And M3 and Davis getting all pissy is just juvenile. Not having a single owner probably does encourage this part.

However, if Florida law was so forgiving (who knew? maybe just about violence and not drugs) and neither the Vikings and the NFL knew, is it really the Packers that have a unique weakness, or that the entire NFL bluster about protecting the shield is a shell of a promise?

Coaches have said some truly stupid things when they take the HC job. M3's statement about Packer People was no more gullible than the rest. Bob is just riding a wave of schadenfreude.

[pbmax]

Jersey Al - GBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 29m29 minutes ago
"Under Bob's sudden high morality criteria, the Pack probably should have cut their alcoholic & drug addicted QB circa 1996..."

Jersey Al - GBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 31m31 minutes ago
Comments on McGinn's post: "I have yet to read an article bashing the Brewers for taking a guy like Ryan Braun back."

[Patler]

For some reason, the chronic bitchers think they are the only ones who are objective, but they are no more objective than "the Packers can do no wrong" crowd. The majority of the fan base is in neither group, but is probably more tolerant of the constantly positive than they are of the constantly negative, it's human nature.

Anyone who was around during the '70s and '80s knows that the majority of Packer fans are not accepting of poor seasons. Fans called for firings and major shake-ups. Bengtson and Devine were run out of town. Fans were embarrassed by Gregg's brand of players. Starr held the hearts of the fan base for a long time, but even he wore out his welcome among the fans. The difference between GB and SOME other fan bases is that in GB fans will still back their team and players when game day rolls around.

Are there some who have a "holier than thou" opinion of the Packers? I think there are, but it is an extremely small group. Most fans know of the problems that have been constant; and I have never seen the Packers themselves proclaim such a status.

In this one article, McGinn has pretty much declared himself more righteous than Packer management and coaches, more aware then the majority of Packer fans, and better than the majority of the WI media. Who has the attitude?

[pbmax]

^ I am not even sure Bob has that actual attitude. He is just taking advantage of the situation to embarrass as many people as possible to elevate himself.

This season or media mergers has brought out some great and some terrible coverage. We need restructured incentives.

[pbmax]

This Tweet makes more sense, and is far more concise, than the entire column.

Bob McGinn ‏@BobMcGinn 7m7 minutes ago
Contrary to their image, #Packers add problem players just like majority of other teams ... http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-not-above-the-fray-of-win-at-all-costs-mentality-b99604933z1-339139291.html …

Though its far from clear whether the media buy the image more than the fans. Remember they all thought Darren Sharper and Chewy were lovely guys.

[Patler]

Jersey Al - GBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 29m29 minutes ago
"Under Bob's sudden high morality criteria, the Pack probably should have cut their alcoholic & drug addicted QB circa 1996..."

Jersey Al - GBP ‏@JerseyAlGBP 31m31 minutes ago
Comments on McGinn's post: "I have yet to read an article bashing the Brewers for taking a guy like Ryan Braun back."

Both, excellent comments.

[Striker]

Ryan Rodig ‏@ryanrodigwfrv Oct 28
Twice this week a #Packers OL cut off interviews or waited until a specific reporter left before continuing. Not happy w/ Guion story

[red]

Ryan Rodig ‏@ryanrodigwfrv Oct 28
Twice this week a #Packers OL cut off interviews or waited until a specific reporter left before continuing. Not happy w/ Guion story

seems like the packers organization needs to realize that the media does not work for the team, even though the local media has been pretty much in the teams back pocket until mcginns article

wisconsin media has let a lot of things go in the past with the team, and pissing them off might not be the best idea

brett favre would probably be looked at in a much different light today if the media had reported on half of his exploits in northern wisconsin and the UP during his career

[Patler]

In some ways the Packers are very different than other businesses, in other ways they are no different than other businesses. When a business has an issue of high profile, it is not uncommon for them to back away from dealing with members of the media they feel lack objectivity. If they refuse to deal with JSO reporters, maybe they do in fact feel the article lacked objectivity, even factual honesty. Maybe MM's selection of the term "garbage" was a calculated response intended to convey the organizations true feelings.

[ThunderDan]

seems like the packers organization needs to realize that the media does not work for the team, even though the local media has been pretty much in the teams back pocket until mcginns article

wisconsin media has let a lot of things go in the past with the team, and pissing them off might not be the best idea

brett favre would probably be looked at in a much different light today if the media had reported on half of his exploits in northern wisconsin and the UP during his career

And downtown Milwaukee.

[pbmax]

In some ways the Packers are very different than other businesses, in other ways they are no different than other businesses. When a business has an issue of high profile, it is not uncommon for them to back away from dealing with members of the media they feel lack objectivity. If they refuse to deal with JSO reporters, maybe they do in fact feel the article lacked objectivity, even factual honesty. Maybe MM's selection of the term "garbage" was a calculated response intended to convey the organizations true feelings.

Not sure I see M3 in that role, but even if he was, we are a week in and no other favorable outlet has gotten the "real" scoop. Not even Rapapport. Seems more like stonewalling.

[mraynrand]

In a few years, we'll have Stubby's emails and everything will be clear.

[Patler]

Not sure I see M3 in that role, but even if he was, we are a week in and no other favorable outlet has gotten the "real" scoop. Not even Rapapport. Seems more like stonewalling.

Could very well be. I think one of the problems the organization has is that all of a sudden, with the Packers having had a tremendous start to their season, JS brings up a story that was known early last July. The ex and her boyfriend filed the lawsuit, which was reported all over. The charges from a couple years earlier, and the fact they were dropped were reported. Guion's attorney said the charges were dismissed because the incident as reported never happened, and suspected that the civil lawsuit filed now, years later, was a simple attempted money grab because of Guion's recent run in with the law. Why didn't the JS dig into it then? Why wait and throw it up in the middle of the season? What is there motive for waiting 5 months? They portray the allegations as factual reports of what happened. I do not doubt that something happened, but for the prosecution to flat out drop the charges leads me to believe it may not have been as alleged. Maybe that is where MM saw "garbage"?

It was a very uncharacteristic response from MM. He is well experienced in dealing with players screwing up, the list of his own players is long. Yet this one caused him to react differently. Why is that?

There are a lot of inconsistencies in this.

[pbmax]

Could very well be. I think one of the problems the organization has is that all of a sudden, with the Packers having had a tremendous start to their season, JS brings up a story that was known early last July. The ex and her boyfriend filed the lawsuit, which was reported all over. The charges from a couple years earlier, and the fact they were dropped were reported. Guion's attorney said the charges were dismissed because the incident as reported never happened, and suspected that the civil lawsuit filed now, years later, was a simple attempted money grab because of Guion's recent run in with the law. Why didn't the JS dig into it then? Why wait and throw it up in the middle of the season? What is there motive for waiting 5 months? They portray the allegations as factual reports of what happened. I do not doubt that something happened, but for the prosecution to flat out drop the charges leads me to believe it may not have been as alleged. Maybe that is where MM saw "garbage"?

It was a very uncharacteristic response from MM. He is well experienced in dealing with players screwing up, the list of his own players is long. Yet this one caused him to react differently. Why is that?

There are a lot of inconsistencies in this.

The dropped charges were part of a plea bargain for deferred prosecution and a fine. He pled to less, and if he stayed clean for six months the more serious charges disappear. I don't think the charging is mysterious.

Given how the original event went unreported for so long (original battery charge and plea bargain) and never widely circulated before the suit, it seems that no one on the other side pushed to make a stink until the lawsuit.

The folks most inclined to cooperate with whatever investigation JSO launched (did it get shelved after Dunne left for Buffalo and the new guy was hired?) are the former girlfriend and her new boyfriend. At any point prior to the lawsuit, if they were promised a payment after the matter was pled, they may have declined to speak. Once they had to file suit to receive money, they have another calculation to make whether going public makes sense. Giving that she is not the focus of the reporting, I am not sure they ever cooperated with reporters.

I exchanged messages with Silverstein after Guion's offseason brush with drug and gun charges. Silverstein share the county's website listing the charges and after the plea it was hard to tell what he pled to. One reading was he pled no contest and all was dropped. But after he checked, Spoon said it was a no contest plea, charges dropped and new, lesser ones entered and accepted.

My guess would be that whatever threw them off the scent of his record last year when the lawsuit was launched was ignored once they got to digging into his actual police record in FLA.

[sharpe1027]

Sooo, should the Packers cut any player with a criminal record? Where is the line for those complaining? Isn't that what the NFL head office takes care of with their suspensions? Are the Packers supposed to play by different rule from every other team? Not really understanding what the uproar is about here.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Whatever, can't believe I clicked on the link to give him a higher amount of readership on the article.

[mraynrand]

Sooo, should the Packers cut any player with a criminal record? Where is the line for those complaining? Isn't that what the NFL head office takes care of with their suspensions? Are the Packers supposed to play by different rule from every other team? Not really understanding what the uproar is about here.

The uproar is that McGinn is selling a partial fiction that Packer fans and Packer org only take 'Packer people' but that the Packers are as corrupt as every other team (according to McGinn's sensibilities) with the exception of a small few, and all this is despite McGinn showing no actual comparisons with which to measure relative corruption and hypocrisy.

[mraynrand]

Go insane

https://lindseybuckingham.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/51stgrammynomslive9.jpg

[sharpe1027]

The uproar is that McGinn is selling a partial fiction that Packer fans and Packer org only take 'Packer people' but that the Packers are as corrupt as every other team (according to McGinn's sensibilities) with the exception of a small few, and all this is despite McGinn showing no actual comparisons with which to measure relative corruption and hypocrisy.

I meant uproar against the Packers. There is really nothing new here. Packer people, was that ever hyped as an off the field thing by the Packers? When did the Packers claim to be better than all other teams. Seems like media construct, which means we should be mad at McGinn and Co. for misleading us in the first place.

You're right of course, there is no objective analysis one whether the Packers are relative to other teams.

[red]

m3 started the myth of "packer people" in his very first press conference i believe

if that term had never been brought up, then i don't think anyone would even care if we had a bunch of thugs or criminals on the team

[sharpe1027]

m3 started the myth of "packer people" in his very first press conference i believe

if that term had never been brought up, then i don't think anyone would even care if we had a bunch of thugs or criminals on the team

As far as I know, he never said a word about not bringing in people with troubled pasts. At the time he was talking a lot about changing the culture. Specifically, getting people to show up for off season and work hard. The rest, as far as I can, tell is media and fan driven BS.

[red]

a quote from his first press conference


"You have to create that stable structure . . . look for the right type of Packer people," McCarthy told the media that day. "Chemistry and character needs to be concentrated on at all times."

from an article by Rob Reischel from 2012

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packer-people-still-relevant-players-say-l86fcf3-166206426.html

the "character" part of the quote would be where all this began

from dictionary.com


character



1.
the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
2.
one such feature or trait; characteristic.
3.
moral or ethical quality:
a man of fine, honorable character.
4.
qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity:
It takes character to face up to a bully.
5.
reputation:
a stain on one's character.
6.
good repute.
7.
an account of the qualities or peculiarities of a person or thing.

now i will admit, M3 if very fucking stupid in my opinion, so he may have been trying to say something else

[red]

another quote from 2012 and that article from mike neal.


"It's weird," Neal said. "The Green Bay Packers, you're usually not talking about guys with character issues. But we're all good people. I'm a good person.

"If you look at our off-season vs. other teams, we didn't have one person arrested this off-season. That speaks for itself. The violations we've had aren't because we're bad people. When you look at that list of guys getting arrested, we're like, '(expletive).' I do think we've got Packer people.

"We don't live in a perfect world. Not everyone's going to be perfect. If you look at the guys that are suspended, we're all good people."

[Bossman641]

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/g_6w0xdnSxwGkKPwJQSIng--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2015-08-11/170d9b80-402a-11e5-85ff-9959252e1ddc_Screen-Shot-2015-08-11-at-9-02-01-AM.png

Is anyone shocked or offended that the Packers employee criminals? They fall in line basically with all other teams.

[red]

Sooo, should the Packers cut any player with a criminal record? Where is the line for those complaining? Isn't that what the NFL head office takes care of with their suspensions? Are the Packers supposed to play by different rule from every other team? Not really understanding what the uproar is about here.

for me, smoking weed is no big deal. a player gets busted for that, oh well. now getting busted for having a shitload of it along with a ton of cash and a gun, that for me is crossing the line

get busted for a dui? oh well, almost everyone in wisconsin/up drives after having some drinks from time to time, sometimes you get caught. now, get 3 or 4 dui's, thats a problem, learn your lesson

beating on you're wife or GF? never acceptable

snorting coke in your car, getting kicked off your college team and blasting a bunch of parents who just lost their children, not acceptable

unloading your clip into the ceiling of a parking garage while grabbing your crotch after a chick rejects you? not acceptable

pouring a little special cough medicine into your drink to get a little extra kick? not a big deal to me

[sharpe1027]

I understand where the quote came from, and out of context, using dictionaries, you can argue it is hypocrisy. However, he never said it meant they were holier than thou, squeaky clean, and not going to use guys with criminal pasts. That's partly why the article comes off as a joke.

[sharpe1027]

for me, smoking weed is no big deal. a player gets busted for that, oh well. now getting busted for having a shitload of it along with a ton of cash and a gun, that for me is crossing the line

get busted for a dui? oh well, almost everyone in wisconsin/up drives after having some drinks from time to time, sometimes you get caught. now, get 3 or 4 dui's, thats a problem, learn your lesson

beating on you're wife or GF? never acceptable

snorting coke in your car, getting kicked off your college team and blasting a bunch of parents who just lost their children, not acceptable

unloading your clip into the ceiling of a parking garage while grabbing your crotch after a chick rejects you? not acceptable

pouring a little special cough medicine into your drink to get a little extra kick? not a big deal to me

That's great. Time to find another sport cause you won't find a team to support in the NFL.

[pbmax]

http://l1.yig

Is anyone shocked or offended that the Packers employee criminals? They fall in line basically with all other teams.

Is anyone shocked that any employer employs people with a criminal record? What level of offense should render people persona non grata in the job market forever?

I would wager that the Packers are middle/upper middle in arrests, but in arrested*player*games metrics, are below average. Further work needs to be done to determine whether that factor is endogenous to the severity of the crime and the resultant jail/probation term.

Still looking for a good breakdown of what kind of criminal team's want or if there is a position by position bias.

[Patler]

The dropped charges were part of a plea bargain for deferred prosecution and a fine. He pled to less, and if he stayed clean for six months the more serious charges disappear. I don't think the charging is mysterious.


That's the mechanics of it. Every first year law student in crim pro learns that, as well as anyone ever charged, their friends and family, or anyone who has ever read an article about run-ins with the law by any of the rich and famous, athlete or otherwise. I was talking about the motivation of the DA (assistant DA, whatever) who threw away serious charges in exchange for a plea that basically made it look like nothing happened in 6 mos. That doesn't flow well from the seriousness of what was initially charged and the victims story that was the foundation of it.

[Patler]

Is anyone shocked that any employer employs people with a criminal record? What level of offense should render people persona non grata in the job market forever?

I would wager that the Packers are middle/upper middle in arrests, but in arrested*player*games metrics, are below average. Further work needs to be done to determine whether that factor is endogenous to the severity of the crime and the resultant jail/probation term.

Still looking for a good breakdown of what kind of criminal team's want or if there is a position by position bias.

Aren't there even laws that prevent discrimination in the hiring of individuals with criminal records? I know the enforcement is spotty, at best; but with the high percentage of working age adults who do have criminal records, I wonder how many can be found in a typical business that employs 50-60 (to compare to only players employed by NFL teams)?

[mraynrand]

Is anyone shocked or offended that the Packers employee criminals? They fall in line basically with all other teams.

Packers should hire more Texan People than Packer People.

[mraynrand]

One good from this might be an awakening of the press and an understanding by the public of what happens when the media fawns over personalities whom they like and then proceed to ignore, gloss over, and downright hide, obfuscate or deliberately lie to the public about their flaws and/or criminality.

Nah, won't happen.

[Patler]

m3 started the myth of "packer people" in his very first press conference i believe

if that term had never been brought up, then i don't think anyone would even care if we had a bunch of thugs or criminals on the team


a quote from his first press conference



from an article by Rob Reischel from 2012

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packer-people-still-relevant-players-say-l86fcf3-166206426.html

the "character" part of the quote would be where all this began

from dictionary.com



now i will admit, M3 if very fucking stupid in my opinion, so he may have been trying to say something else


So the Packers have a "holier than thou" attitude because of a goal expressed by a new head coach in his first press conference? It is based on something he said before he ever performed any act as a head coach in his life, other than presumably signing his contract and showing up at the press conference?

Isn't that a bit absurd?

[pbmax]

That's the mechanics of it. Every first year law student in crim pro learns that, as well as anyone ever charged, their friends and family, or anyone who has ever read an article about run-ins with the law by any of the rich and famous, athlete or otherwise. I was talking about the motivation of the DA (assistant DA, whatever) who threw away serious charges in exchange for a plea that basically made it look like nothing happened in 6 mos. That doesn't flow well from the seriousness of what was initially charged and the victims story that was the foundation of it.

I don't share your surprise that a guy getting hit and shoved to the ground and a women getting hit lead to substantially reduced charges. And somewhere I believe there was an incident where Guion was the victim of an assault involving the same people.

If this was the first round with police involved, I think the charges are in line with a lot of other action on domestic violence when it comes to charging. And Guion can afford good representation.

[pbmax]

That's the mechanics of it. Every first year law student in crim pro learns that....

Its good to know I am punching above my weight then. :D

[Zool]

And every time someone clicks on the link, the paper makes money. If everyone stopped clicking on McGinn's "news" articles, he would go away naturally.

People do like a spectacle though.

[Patler]

I don't share your surprise that a guy getting hit and shoved to the ground and a women getting hit lead to substantially reduced charges. And somewhere I believe there was an incident where Guion was the victim of an assault involving the same people.

If this was the first round with police involved, I think the charges are in line with a lot of other action on domestic violence when it comes to charging. And Guion can afford good representation.

I disagree, especially when the parties involved are no longer cohabitants. It's not surprise, just recognition of cause behind it. Cases often fall apart when the wife, live-in girlfriend, etc. backs away from cooperating with the DA. That wasn't the case here. They were no longer together, and she had moved on to a new boyfriend. Yet the DA apparently felt he had little to work with, because he basically agreed to a plea making this look like nothing happened. If he had a case at all, he would have demanded something requiring a greater acceptance of responsibility. This type of plea deal results from the DA having nothing but the fact of the initial charge on the table.

[Patler]

That's the mechanics of it. Every first year law student learns that....
Its good to know I am punching above my weight then. :D

Now, now......copy the full quote! :-) :-)


.... as well as anyone ever charged, their friends and family, or anyone who has ever read an article about run-ins with the law by any of the rich and famous, athlete or otherwise.

Hopefully, you fit only in the last group!! :-)

[pbmax]

Now, now......copy the full quote! :-) :-)



Hopefully, you fit only in the last group!! :-)

My familiarity with the legal system is mainly about navigating and avoiding paying for parking tickets.

[mraynrand]

Its good to know I am punching above my weight then. :D

Which apparently is what you need to do when you encounter Guion