Maybe Our Problem Is Talent, Or Lack Of It

[Maxie the Taxi]

These last three games have been disheartening to say the least. We're all trying to put our fingers on the problem. Here's a thought? Maybe our players aren't as good as their billing?

Take offense, for instance. Our skill players RB, WR's and TE our generally worse than their counterparts on opposing teams, especially since Jordy is out for the season. Is Lacy hurt, too fat or just no good. Either way I'd rather have any RB in our division now instead of him. Our WR's cannot defeat man coverage. We're screaming for Janis and Abby but the coaches deem their play sporadic and inconsistent. Our TE is marginal both speedwise and blocking wise. Our QB is running for his life and "scared", so his All Pro stature is neutralized.

Our OLine is nothing special, especially compared to last year when half of them were injured. The good OLinemen we have are neutralized by the putrid play of the worst ones. Bak sucks. Bulaga seems to have lost some mobility. Linsley is adequate. Sitton and Lang, as a result, are overshadowed.

All Pro's on Offense: Possibly Sitton, Maybe Arod.

Take Defense...Our Defensive Line has a group of adequate players. Daniels and Raji are above avg. but not All Pros. Pennel and Jones have potential, but are inconsistent.

Our LB's are average except for Mathews, who can't do everything and has become a Jack of all trades and master of none. Peppers is good when he's good, but he's good less often. The rest are avg or below or players with potential.

Our Secondary is shakey. HaHa and Randall are above average young players. Burnett is avg or above. Shields may be a victim of his surroundings. Hayward seems to have regressed. Hyde is the best of our avg. players.

All Pros on Defense? Mathews?

Special Teams? Our Punter used to be avg. Now he's below. Crosby? You tell me.

Am I wrong, or just the victim of disappointment after a nasty loss?

[Rutnstrut]

It can't be lack of talent, TT has hand picked these guys.

[King Friday]

It isn't lack of talent. The offensive scheme is setting up our team to fail. On 3rd and short, we can always count for them to throw a 50 yard bomb. The Patriots have no more talent than Green Bay on offense...yet they dominate because their offensive brain trust is better at understanding how to attack opposing defenses. McCarthy merely relies on having an elite QB to get him out of trouble. He always has. He has no ability to craft a game plan that actively attacks an opposing defense's warts.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It can't be lack of talent, TT has hand picked these guys. Well, TT has definitely made educated calls, some of which haven't turned out exactly as expected.

For example, he let Jennings and Jones go, expecting Jordy, Cobb and a group of young draftees to keep our WR corps elite. The problem is he wasn't expecting Jordy and Cobb to get hurt and the younger guys less capable.

He revamped our secondary and drafted a bunch of high calibre guys, one of whom is becoming a starter, but the others are very green. Plus, he wasn't expecting Shields to be injured and Hayward to regress.

He ignored our difficiencies at ILB in free agency and the draft. He was expecting guys on the roster to pick up the slack. He wasn't expecting Barrington to be injured and the others not to produce consistently. Not to mention Mathews being forced to do way more than expected.

As a result, the strengths of this team became liabilities or areas for opposing teams to exploit.

[Rutnstrut]

Well, TT has definitely made educated calls, some of which haven't turned out exactly as expected.

For example, he let Jennings and Jones go, expecting Jordy, Cobb and a group of young draftees to keep our WR corps elite. The problem is he wasn't expecting Jordy and Cobb to get hurt and the younger guys less capable.

He revamped our secondary and drafted a bunch of high calibre guys, one of whom is becoming a starter, but the others are very green. Plus, he wasn't expecting Shields to be injured and Hayward to regress.

He ignored our difficiencies at ILB in free agency and the draft. He was expecting guys on the roster to pick up the slack. He wasn't expecting Barrington to be injured and the others not to produce consistently. Not to mention Mathews being forced to do way more than expected.

As a result, the strengths of this team became liabilities or areas for opposing teams to exploit.

The one thing he COULD know is that his DC and head coach are pretty much worthless.

[red]

i mentioned before that idea that our secondary players aren't progressing much if at all in the pros

haha, might be too early to tell, but he doesn't look that much better then he did last year

i don't think burnett has improved much since his rookie year

shields was the surprise stud of his training camp and played decent as a rookie, but hasn't continued to improve since maybe his second year

hayward is worse now then he was as a rookie

hyde hasn't improved since he was a rookie and might have regressed

it almost seems to me like they are who they are when we get them, and don't grow much after we have them

players are suppose to get better with age early on, not worse

[King Friday]

The one thing he COULD know is that his DC and head coach are pretty much worthless.

The defense played very well today, considering the offense went 3 and out about 80% of the time.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It isn't lack of talent. The offensive scheme is setting up our team to fail. On 3rd and short, we can always count for them to throw a 50 yard bomb. The Patriots have no more talent than Green Bay on offense...yet they dominate because their offensive brain trust is better at understanding how to attack opposing defenses. McCarthy merely relies on having an elite QB to get him out of trouble. He always has. He has no ability to craft a game plan that actively attacks an opposing defense's warts.

NE has "no more talent than GB?" I disagree. Their skilled positions: Gronk at TE; Edelman, Amendola, LaFell; QB Brady. Right now these guys are better than our guys. Arguably their defense is equal to or better than our guys.

Add to this that they are more smartly coached and game planned and it's a real problem.

[pbmax]

Gronk is the difference maker, but the Packer receivers are better talents. How they are being used is a different question. LaFell is their deep threat for Pete's sake. Carolina didn't want him.

No one let Jennings go, he turned down a better offer because he expected to get paid in a big way and was hurt. And then couldn't swallow his pride. I don't think anyone wanted Jennings to come back after the attitude he pulled.

Jones is displaying exactly why he was let go.

[Rutnstrut]

Gronk is the difference maker, but the Packer receivers are better talents. How they are being used is a different question. LaFell is their deep threat for Pete's sake. Carolina didn't want him.

No one let Jennings go, he turned down a better offer because he expected to get paid in a big way and was hurt. And then couldn't swallow his pride. I don't think anyone wanted Jennings to come back after the attitude he pulled.

Jones is displaying exactly why he was let go.

Jones is still better at what he does than anyone they have tried to replace him with.

[pbmax]

Jones is still better at what he does than anyone they have tried to replace him with.

Adams was at least open, even if he was dropping too many and Rodgers was inaccurate too often.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Gronk is the difference maker, but the Packer receivers are better talents. How they are being used is a different question. LaFell is their deep threat for Pete's sake. Carolina didn't want him.

No one let Jennings go, he turned down a better offer because he expected to get paid in a big way and was hurt. And then couldn't swallow his pride. I don't think anyone wanted Jennings to come back after the attitude he pulled.

Jones is displaying exactly why he was let go.

I know it's just two games, but NE just pulled off what the Packers couldn't and Edelman wasn't playing. PK kicked a 54 yarder to win. Brady, Gronk and Amendola were the difference-makers and Brady was under a constant heavy rush.

[pbmax]

I know it's just two games, but NE just pulled off what the Packers couldn't and Edelman wasn't playing. PK kicked a 54 yarder to win. Brady, Gronk and Amendola were the difference-makers and Brady was under a constant heavy rush.

If Crosby hits the FG, would you think differently about the teams? Giants haven't been lighting it up this year.

[Rutnstrut]

I know it's just two games, but NE just pulled off what the Packers couldn't and Edelman wasn't playing. PK kicked a 54 yarder to win. Brady, Gronk and Amendola were the difference-makers and Brady was under a constant heavy rush.

Edelman wasn't the only starter the Pat's were missing. The thing is they don't use it as an excuse like the Packers do.

[denverYooper]

The defense played very well today, considering the offense went 3 and out about 80% of the time.

I thought so too. They're not built to keep the team hanging around until the offense can piece together some drives, but that's how they've been operating.

[pbmax]

Tramontana Williams was a product of this coaching staff. Burnett had his best year last year. Someone had to teach Shields how to play CB since he did it for what, one or two years in college? Nick Collins became an All Pro under them.

Hayward, if he has trended downward might have been done in by injuries. HHCD did well at safety last year, this year he has been playing musical partners there.

The coaches I worry the least about are back there.


i mentioned before that idea that our secondary players aren't progressing much if at all in the pros

haha, might be too early to tell, but he doesn't look that much better then he did last year

i don't think burnett has improved much since his rookie year

shields was the surprise stud of his training camp and played decent as a rookie, but hasn't continued to improve since maybe his second year

hayward is worse now then he was as a rookie

hyde hasn't improved since he was a rookie and might have regressed

it almost seems to me like they are who they are when we get them, and don't grow much after we have them

players are suppose to get better with age early on, not worse

[mraynrand]

I've said in other threads, the Packers don't have a ton of mainline talent, that is All Pro guys. Maybe 2-3 max. They have a lot of upper middle talent, and to be effective (that is, compete for a championship) they all have to be available and playing at their top level. The O-line at tackle has crashed and burned, and the interior is so-so.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If Crosby hits the FG, would you think differently about the teams? Giants haven't been lighting it up this year.

Are you kidding? :-)Crosby's field goal had nothing to do with the Packers' performance today, one way or the other they were baaaaad. However, the thing is Crosby didn't hit the field goal.:sad: I didn't watch all of the Pats game so I can't make an exact comparison. Just based on past performance, I'd rather have their offense than ours right now.

[mraynrand]

Adams was at least open, even if he was dropping too many and Rodgers was inaccurate too often.

There's plenty of upside there with Adams. And Adams got abused a bit, leading to him being 'less open/more held.' It's hard to believe a visiting team got away with what they did. Again, not saying the outcome changes, just that it was odd to see what was allowed in today's NFL.

[Rutnstrut]

If Crosby hits the FG, would you think differently about the teams? Giants haven't been lighting it up this year.

The Giants may not have been lighting it up this year, but they are still better than the Lions. So I wouldn't have thought differently, this game should NEVER have came down to that last second missed FG.

[mraynrand]

Are you kidding? :-)Crosby's field goal had nothing to do with the Packers' performance today, one way or the other they were baaaaad. However, the thing is Crosby didn't hit the field goal.:sad: I didn't watch all of the Pats game so I can't make an exact comparison. Just based on past performance, I'd rather have their offense than ours right now.

Yeah, but NE looked bad for stretches too. Packers rallied and could have won the game.

[mraynrand]

The Giants may not have been lighting it up this year, but they are still better than the Lions. So I wouldn't have thought differently, this game should NEVER have came down to that last second missed FG.

but both games did. Giants at Lions might be fun to watch.

[red]

Tramontana Williams was a product of this coaching staff. Burnett had his best year last year. Someone had to teach Shields how to play CB since he did it for what, one or two years in college? Nick Collins became an All Pro under them.

Hayward, if he has trended downward might have been done in by injuries. HHCD did well at safety last year, this year he has been playing musical partners there.

The coaches I worry the least about are back there.

i'm pretty sure tramon and collins had different positional coaches a decade ago

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yeah, but NE looked bad for stretches too. Packers rallied and could have won the game.

Brady's rally looked better than ours. LOL

[Rutnstrut]

Brady's rally looked better than ours. LOL

There is some truth to that. Even when Brady was throwing incompletions today, their offense still looked more complete or with it.

[pbmax]

Are you kidding? :-)Crosby's field goal had nothing to do with the Packers' performance today, one way or the other they were baaaaad. However, the thing is Crosby didn't hit the field goal.:sad: I didn't watch all of the Pats game so I can't make an exact comparison. Just based on past performance, I'd rather have their offense than ours right now.

But that's exactly my point. The result is beside the point. There are still things to fix, Crosby successful or not.

[Maxie the Taxi]

But that's exactly my point. The result is beside the point. There are still things to fix, Crosby successful or not.
How do you fix inferior talent? That's my point.

[pbmax]

How do you fix inferior talent? That's my point.

I don't think its inferior. I think its being used less than optimally. But I have been wrong before.

[mraynrand]

How do you fix inferior talent? That's my point.

up until now it was good coaching, scheme, performance, and availability for all kinds of different packages.

But 'inferior' with respect to what? I'd say a handful of players on a handful of teams.

[pbmax]

i'm pretty sure tramon and collins had different positional coaches a decade ago


You think Kurt Schottenheimer was the key?

[Rutnstrut]

up until now it was good coaching, scheme, performance, and availability for all kinds of different packages.

But 'inferior' with respect to what? I'd say a handful of players on a handful of teams.

I disagree on the good coaching, more like mediocre coaching, excellent QB play and luck.

[mraynrand]

I disagree on the good coaching, more like mediocre coaching, excellent QB play and luck.

Like I said, excellent QB play has resulted form good coaching: retraining Rodgers from Tedford, the scheme than made him successful, organizing the offense, the receivers, etc. etc.

And you can't have it both ways - if TT is drafting marginal talent, then the coaching has to be well above average to squeeze out the rate of wins we've seen during the Stubby era

[Patler]

Lack of talent, or lack of "clutchiness"?
Rodgers is very talented, but has failed to come through in the clutch.
Crosby is very talented, but seems to miss more late game winners than he hits.
Matthews is very talented, but where was the decisive defensive play?
etc.
etc.
etc.

[pbmax]

I think M3 does fail his team in late game situations and that puts his players in bad situations.

[Rutnstrut]

I think M3 does fail his team in late game situations and that puts his players in bad situations.

A coach like stubby needs all the stars to align for things to work. More often than not the stars don't align perfectly in the NFL and a good coach has to learn to win when they don't. Stubby has had many years to prove he is not a good coach when it comes to coaching on the fly or making adjustments or even thinking outside the box. IMO he is one who should always be an assistant, but isn't head coach worthy. Like I have said before, the Packers have had success despite of him, not due to him.

[mraynrand]

A coach like stubby needs all the stars to align for things to work. More often than not the stars don't align perfectly in the NFL and a good coach has to learn to win when they don't. Stubby has had many years to prove he is not a good coach when it comes to coaching on the fly or making adjustments or even thinking outside the box. IMO he is one who should always be an assistant, but isn't head coach worthy. Like I have said before, the Packers have had success despite of him, not due to him.


This is such a lame take, I'm not even gonna grace it with a rebuttal

[Rutnstrut]

This is such a lame take, I'm not even gonna grace it with a rebuttal

As is your blind faith in stubby.

[mraynrand]

As is your blind faith in stubby.

This is such a lame take, I'm not even gonna grace it with a rebuttal.

[Cobra Kai]

It's the Mike Ditka curse. Ever since those McD's commercials were he's wearing the Packer sweater, they've been playing worse than ass. Obviously the way to break the curse is to beat the Bears on Thanksgiving (but I'll take beating the Vikings next week too). Btw I want one of those sweaters, it's pretty sweet...

[Patler]

It's the Mike Ditka curse. Ever since those McD's commercials were he's wearing the Packer sweater, they've been playing worse than ass. Obviously the way to break the curse is to beat the Bears on Thanksgiving (but I'll take beating the Vikings next week too). Btw I want one of those sweaters, it's pretty sweet...

and the Bears have been playing well.

[mraynrand]

and the Bears have been playing well.

So too the Vikings. Packers will lose a whole lotta games if their play remains as it is right now.

[Freak Out]

There's plenty of upside there with Adams. And Adams got abused a bit, leading to him being 'less open/more held.' It's hard to believe a visiting team got away with what they did. Again, not saying the outcome changes, just that it was odd to see what was allowed in today's NFL.

There was a load of grab ass going on out there today....the crew of the SEA game is calling all that stuff right now.

[Patler]

So too the Vikings. Packers will lose a whole lotta games if their play remains as it is right now.

ya, like probably 7 more. I can't say the Lions played well today, but managed to beat Gb.

[3irty1]

Talent is part of it but its not just talent.

On offense I count 3 obvious problems with talent.

1) we lack a credible receiving threat outside. It goes beyond just not having a vertical threat, we can't field a passing attack that puts horizontal pressure on a defense. Jones and Adams aren't getting open. Most of our big plays have come off of free plays where Rodgers throws it up to a guy who isn't open and he catches it anyways. Against defense that doesn't shoot themselves with penalties this weakness has become more and more glaring.

2) Lacy is fat.

3) Whether against legitimately great pass rushers (Denver) or not, our Tackles have been hemorrhaging ground. Issue 1 and 2 make this worse as they are asked to sit in the chair longer and more often than usual.

That said what we're seeing is more than just a little talent deficiency. This is mostly the same offense as we had last year sans Nelson. There has to be multiple failures from multiple coaches as well. Another issue is that we are bringing out the absolute best in our opponents. How many teams have played their best game of the year versus us?

[pbmax]

It's the Mike Ditka curse. Ever since those McD's commercials were he's wearing the Packer sweater, they've been playing worse than ass. Obviously the way to break the curse is to beat the Bears on Thanksgiving (but I'll take beating the Vikings next week too). Btw I want one of those sweaters, it's pretty sweet...


and the Bears have been playing well.

Its a plot. Look what happened to Dallas after Rice showed up in their jersey!

[pbmax]

4) Running game. Much of this would be helped by a running game. Buts its been stuck in neutral with some terrible running and more terrible blocking.