WR Routes

[Cheesehead Craig]

I am baffled at the routes that our WRs run. Nobody seems to put together any effort to get open. The routes I'm seeing are generally done rather lazily and there's no crispness at all. They go to their spot and stop.

I don't know if it's the general scheme, coaching or personnel but it's pathetic.

[mraynrand]

I was thinking the same thing. Cobb jogging in front of a LB just helps the LB keep him covered. WTF?

[mission]

Nothing crisp, super soft routes...
One play Collinsworth said something on a replay to the effect of "watch Cobb with the shake and bake on this route" and then it was pretty underwhelming. No hip snap at all and exact opposite of shake and bake.

[Bossman641]

Yep, there is zero urgency in the routes. Looks like they are loafing out there.

[Freak Out]

I was thinking the same thing. Cobb jogging in front of a LB just helps the LB keep him covered. WTF?

I was dumbstruck watching that play....these guys have lost it or never had it. Where is the fight?

[denverYooper]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 25m25 minutes ago
Where is @MattBowen41 when we need him? What percentage of that INT is on Rodgers, and what percentage is on Adams, my man?

Matt Bowen ‏@MattBowen41 24m24 minutes ago
@jasonjwilde Slant-Flat. Throwing to a spot. WR has to get there.

[mraynrand]

I was dumbstruck watching that play....these guys have lost it or never had it. Where is the fight?

Robert Brooks was there at halftime. I remember how fast he ran those crossing routes. Quick in and out of breaks, up to full speed in a snap. I dunno what that crap is on the field. And Cobb to boot. Maybe the money was just too sweet.

[mraynrand]

Matt Bowen ‏@MattBowen41 24m24 minutes ago
@jasonjwilde Slant-Flat. Throwing to a spot. WR has to get there.

He has to run over through that defender to at least get them to call illegal contact. Stop trying to avoid the defender and run your damn pattern.

[denverYooper]

Stephen White ‏@sgw94 26m26 minutes ago
Adams needs to go to Walmart and buy a new set of hands.

[Freak Out]

Where the fuck is Madtown? How is your Fresneck boy now?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am baffled at the routes that our WRs run. Nobody seems to put together any effort to get open. The routes I'm seeing are generally done rather lazily and there's no crispness at all. They go to their spot and stop.

I don't know if it's the general scheme, coaching or personnel but it's pathetic.

It's hard to tell from TV view, but it sure seems like you are right

[mr_blonde]

They don't run any man beater routes!!!!
Every route is an isolation route!!!!

As Tracy Porter told Michelle Tafoya after the game, they know what the Packers offense wants to do!

Catch a clue you miserable fat fuck McCarthy!!!!!

[Freak Out]

They don't run any man beater routes!!!!
Every route is an isolation route!!!!

As Tracy Porter told Michelle Tafoya after the game, they know what the Packers offense wants to do!

Catch a clue you miserable fat fuck McCarthy!!!!!

Both sides are failing here...coaches and players.

[Bossman641]

Both sides are failing here...coaches and players.

Yep the WR can't beat coverage and the coaching staff is doing them no favors. There is little to no motion or bunch formations. The defense is able to easily identify who they are covering.

[denverYooper]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 7m7 minutes ago
McCarthy says Adams "didn't have a very good day today."

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 7m7 minutes ago
McCarthy says Adams "didn't have a very good day today."

Did anybody follow-up with, "Are you satisfied with Janis's game?"

[mraynrand]

Yep the WR can't beat coverage and the coaching staff is doing them no favors. There is little to no motion or bunch formations. The defense is able to easily identify who they are covering.

and once they lock in, it's not all that hard to cover guys jogging or guys who stop patterns if you give them a little shove.

Guys like Tracy Porter and Charles Tillman, even being older, are perfect for covering this sluggish bunch.

[mr_blonde]

Both sides are failing here...coaches and players.

You are correct!!! The performance tonight by the WRs was poor.

I think this team (specifically, the WRs) are mailing it in (just going through the motions, not trying to "make plays").
They have been MF'ed by the fans, the media and their faggot QB for several weeks now. In addition, the coaching staff is not putting together a game plan that gives them the opportunities to make plays.

The "quitting on the team" situation is not as bad as the Eagles right now, but I would not be surprised if the Packers get there by the end of the year .... However, it also wouldn't surprise me if the Packers stagger into the playoffs, especially since the NFC is so piss poor awful this year ....

[mraynrand]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 7m7 minutes ago
McCarthy says Adams "didn't have a very good day today."

Brilliant.

[red]

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 7m7 minutes ago
McCarthy says Adams "didn't have a very good day today."

yeah? the why not give the other fucking guy a chance?

[denverYooper]

lol. That would be a question for local media.

The Denver radio guys ask stuff like that a lot of the Broncos coaches. It doesn't make the national stories but they have a ball with it on the drivetime show.

[red]

Robert Brooks was there at halftime. I remember how fast he ran those crossing routes. Quick in and out of breaks, up to full speed in a snap. I dunno what that crap is on the field. And Cobb to boot. Maybe the money was just too sweet.

he sure as shit isn't playing like the #1b wr he's being paid to be

[Freak Out]

TT has fucked this thing up.

[yetisnowman]

It's odd to me watching the replays of our pass plays. Most of the time it seems like all of our players running routes have zero expectation of getting the ball and make minimal effort to get space.

[denverYooper]

It's odd to me watching the replays of our pass plays. Most of the time it seems like all of our players running routes have zero expectation of getting the ball and make minimal effort to get space.

Or they're just slow.

[denverYooper]

I like Cobb but he sure looks overpaid.

[ThunderDan]

I like Cobb but he sure looks overpaid.

Looks like we are learning how important Nelson really is. Teams are game planning for Cobb and not really have to worry about the deep threat this year.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

So can somebody riddle me this? 1st and goal at the 8, and their running game is doing relatively well, and their passing game is sucking donkey peepee, why didn't they at least try a draw? There appeared to be enough time for one such attempt?

[mraynrand]

So can somebody riddle me this? 1st and goal at the 8, and their running game is doing relatively well, and their passing game is sucking donkey peepee, why didn't they at least try a draw? There appeared to be enough time for one such attempt?

Packers really only like to run when they know they can't gain yards. Like third/fourth and short. It's a professional courtesy kind of deal.

[mraynrand]

Looks like we are learning how important Nelson really is. Teams are game planning for Cobb and not really have to worry about the deep threat this year.


True, but It's also about the depth. If they had abracadabra and monty out there the whole year, they be torching the other team's fourth and fifth dbs. Loss of the top tier Rodgers security blanket means they have to overwhelm with depth. The defense is the same way - notice how much better it's running with all the parts available. Packers have virtually no top tier talent. Maybe Rodgers and Matthews at this point, and I wouldn't even say that with the way they are both playing/being used. Need all hands on deck.

Nelson/security blanket also was a reliable go to hands guy. 2/17 jones/Adams have pretty much lost Rodger's confidence. So who the hell does he throw to now?

Comparing to NE, Brady never flinches when guys go down: why?

1) Coaching - the receivers don't know what the hell they are doing
2) Rodgers - won't throw to anyone he doesn't 'trust'
3) WRs - The play of some of these guys doesn't inspire trusts, so there you are.
4) Video games - too many of them apparently, leading to (3) and making (1) less effective
5) I hate football, why do I torture myself?
6) All of the above

[Teamcheez1]

Adams is playing himself into the second coming of Jarret Boykin.

[red]

Adams is playing himself into the second coming of Jarret Boykin.

thats what i was thinking last night too

[denverYooper]

Longtime Denver media guy, solid local NFL writer:

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 4m4 minutes ago
From my living room recliner last night Aaron Rodgers has 2 problems-1. Davante Adams 2. LBers can cover Randall Cobb #9news #9sports

[mraynrand]

Longtime Denver media guy, solid local NFL writer:

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 4m4 minutes ago
From my living room recliner last night Aaron Rodgers has 2 problems-1. Davante Adams 2. LBers can cover Randall Cobb #9news #9sports

I think this is a result of awful route running. If you're jogging to an 'open spot' any LB, even AJ Hawk, can probably defense you.

[denverYooper]

True, but It's also about the depth. If they had abracadabra and monty out there the whole year, they be torching the other team's fourth and fifth dbs. Loss of the top tier Rodgers security blanket means they have to overwhelm with depth. The defense is the same way - notice how much better it's running with all the parts available. Packers have virtually no top tier talent. Maybe Rodgers and Matthews at this point, and I wouldn't even say that with the way they are both playing/being used. Need all hands on deck.

Nelson/security blanket also was a reliable go to hands guy. 2/17 jones/Adams have pretty much lost Rodger's confidence. So who the hell does he throw to now?

Comparing to NE, Brady never flinches when guys go down: why?

1) Coaching - the receivers don't know what the hell they are doing
2) Rodgers - won't throw to anyone he doesn't 'trust'
3) WRs - The play of some of these guys doesn't inspire trusts, so there you are.
4) Video games - too many of them apparently, leading to (3) and making (1) less effective
5) I hate football, why do I torture myself?
6) All of the above

Agree with #5. It's maddening to watch something you really have no control over.

I wonder if Belichick would cut guys for playing video games.

[red]

ok, maybe it is all adams fault

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/27/aaron-rodgers-has-a-davante-adams-problem/


Over the last three weeks, when Rodgers throws to Adams, he’s 15-for-35 for 129 yards with no touchdowns and one interception. That’s a completion percentage of 42.9 percent, an average of 3.7 yards per pOver the last three weeks, when Rodgers throws to anyone other than Adams, he’s 58-for-103 for 618 yards with five touchdowns and no interceptions. That’s a completion percentage of 56.3 percent, an average of 6.0 yards per pass, and a passer rating of 90.2.

[denverYooper]

ok, maybe it is all adams fault

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/27/aaron-rodgers-has-a-davante-adams-problem/

Saw that too. I'm mystified as to why they don't bench him at this point.

[denverYooper]

I mean, Lacy gets benched for a fumble but at least 90% of his touches were productive.

[mraynrand]

Saw that too. I'm mystified as to why they don't bench him at this point.

Because Janis isn't 'trustworthy'

[mraynrand]

I mean, Lacy gets benched for a fumble but at least 90% of his touches were productive.

Give him the goddamn ball fuckers!

[smuggler]

Run the fucking ball and put the one receiver in the game that keeps the defense honest deep.

[Maxie the Taxi]

During the game I posted this:
"James Jones is dogging it tonight, no doubt about it. He makes one cut and gives up. Not going full speed ever. ...Maybe a hamstring? Or just an old guy dogging it?"

And this:
"James Jones is not even running full speed. He's loping. Has been all game. Plus, I've seen him stop running when Arod is scrambling."

I've always liked Jones, but there's a reason he left and didn't stick to the Jets(?). He's still strong and has great hands, but he's slow and takes plays off. He gets gassed running downfield. I could cover him, except for those out-of-bounds TD catches he makes. That has been his forte lately, catching the TD out of bounds. It's the only place the defense can't cover him.

And Adams is Jones's's's' weak sister. He's not strong enough to muscle through body checks and hand checks. He's slow running downfield and slow breaking to the ball. He loses on most jump balls. He's smart and maybe that's why Arod likes him. Maybe on the sideline and in meetings he can talk a good game, but he can't come through on the field.

Cobb? Nothing wrong with Cobb. He's not the fastest guy in the world, but he's strong, has great hands and gets to the ball. He's just trying too hard, trying to do it all himself. He knows he ain't got much help.

Situation has been this way for over a month and it ain't going to get better without some speed in our WR corps. And you can't teach speed.

Just my opinion as I see it.

[Bossman641]

ok, maybe it is all adams fault

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/27/aaron-rodgers-has-a-davante-adams-problem/

I'm not making an excuse, cause Adams has been shit, but I wonder how much the ankle is bothering him. He looked 10X better last year. That can't all be the result of facing the 3rd and 4th string DB's. He has no speed or ability to get open. He gets to the point of his route where he is making cuts and he does this jump cut fake move that is going nowhere.

[beveaux1]

Went into this season thinking that Rodgers made the wide receivers better than they actually are. I mistakenly thought that the loss of Nelson would be easily covered by Rodgers' accuracy and the emergence of Adams. Defenses have pretty quickly learned that double covering Cobb and man coverage on the rest of the receivers is a formula to victory. Rodgers refuses to throw to a covered receiver in order to avoid the interception and, whether it's mental or physical, his accuracy has been ordinary---better than Newton, much worse than Brady. Until the last couple of games, I thought the OL was part of the problem. I've changed my opinion on that, they held up and gave a very clean pocket and the results have been the same. Around 50% completions, no YAC, no deep balls with any chance of completion, every accurate throw contested, and almost every drive stalling after a couple of first downs.

I remember the biggest complaint in past seasons being the attempted long pass on 3rd and short. Our staple play of a 5 yard pass with a 10 yard YAC has been replaced with a 1 yard pass and immediate tackle to R Rodgers, or a throw away pass out of bounds. If not for screen passes, I don't think Rodgers would have had 100 yards. It would have been Denver all over again.

The offense SEEMS to have fixed the problem with the run game, but for 7 games, they have not come up with a fix for our passing game. I'm really beginning to believe they will not come up with a fix. Adams is what he is, a receiver with average hands, little speed, below average route running ability, no ability to cause separation from the defender. Jones has good hands, below average speed, below average route running ability, and cannot separate from the defender. Cobb is a good slot receiver with good quickness but below average deep speed, He's never been a route runner, and his hands are average to below average. Single covered he can generate YAC, double covered, he's no factor. R Rodgers has good hands, poor speed, actually can get open on short routes, but has the least YAC ability of anyone on the team. He's a master of the 0 to 3 yard pass. The bench of Montgomery, Abbredaris, and Janis, either are too raw or too injury prone to make much difference in the passing attack. We focus on Janis because of his speed, but it's pretty telling that he can't get on the field given the collection of inferior talent that's ahead of him on the depth chart.

Announcers say our offense is out of sync. I think the problem is the players, not the plays. Rodgers has lost accuracy and may have lost confidence in his very pedestrian corps of receivers. Really no easy fix. We can scheme a guy open once in a while, but the defense will counter that scheme and stop it pretty quickly. The players have to beat their man and that just isn't happening. Think of it this way. Nelson took a double team and was able to make plays. Cobb was single covered and could free lance. He usually had the #3 corner on him and he could beat him. Adams had either the #1 corner who took him out of the game or the #2 corner whom he sometimes could beat. This team has Adams facing the #1 corner whom he can't beat. Cobb facing the #3 corner with safety help and he doesn't get open. Jones facing the #2 corner and sometimes he gets 100 yards and sometimes he gets nothing. I just don't see a magic fix for our problems.

[Carolina_Packer]

I'm not making an excuse, cause Adams has been shit, but I wonder how much the ankle is bothering him. He looked 10X better last year. That can't all be the result of facing the 3rd and 4th string DB's. He has no speed or ability to get open. He gets to the point of his route where he is making cuts and he does this jump cut fake move that is going nowhere.

Yeah, I don't think he's 100% or even close. I think it's time to just turn Janis loose and see what he can do, especially on the scramble drills they seem to fall into when the rush comes and the receivers aren't getting open in their primary routes. It's not their style, but is there any possibility of bringing in a street free agent to try and inject some life, or is that a waste? http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2015WR.php

[Bossman641]

Went into this season thinking that Rodgers made the wide receivers better than they actually are. I mistakenly thought that the loss of Nelson would be easily covered by Rodgers' accuracy and the emergence of Adams. Defenses have pretty quickly learned that double covering Cobb and man coverage on the rest of the receivers is a formula to victory. Rodgers refuses to throw to a covered receiver in order to avoid the interception and, whether it's mental or physical, his accuracy has been ordinary---better than Newton, much worse than Brady. Until the last couple of games, I thought the OL was part of the problem. I've changed my opinion on that, they held up and gave a very clean pocket and the results have been the same. Around 50% completions, no YAC, no deep balls with any chance of completion, every accurate throw contested, and almost every drive stalling after a couple of first downs.

I remember the biggest complaint in past seasons being the attempted long pass on 3rd and short. Our staple play of a 5 yard pass with a 10 yard YAC has been replaced with a 1 yard pass and immediate tackle to R Rodgers, or a throw away pass out of bounds. If not for screen passes, I don't think Rodgers would have had 100 yards. It would have been Denver all over again.

The offense SEEMS to have fixed the problem with the run game, but for 7 games, they have not come up with a fix for our passing game. I'm really beginning to believe they will not come up with a fix. Adams is what he is, a receiver with average hands, little speed, below average route running ability, no ability to cause separation from the defender. Jones has good hands, below average speed, below average route running ability, and cannot separate from the defender. Cobb is a good slot receiver with good quickness but below average deep speed, He's never been a route runner, and his hands are average to below average. Single covered he can generate YAC, double covered, he's no factor. R Rodgers has good hands, poor speed, actually can get open on short routes, but has the least YAC ability of anyone on the team. He's a master of the 0 to 3 yard pass. The bench of Montgomery, Abbredaris, and Janis, either are too raw or too injury prone to make much difference in the passing attack. We focus on Janis because of his speed, but it's pretty telling that he can't get on the field given the collection of inferior talent that's ahead of him on the depth chart.

Announcers say our offense is out of sync. I think the problem is the players, not the plays. Rodgers has lost accuracy and may have lost confidence in his very pedestrian corps of receivers. Really no easy fix. We can scheme a guy open once in a while, but the defense will counter that scheme and stop it pretty quickly. The players have to beat their man and that just isn't happening. Think of it this way. Nelson took a double team and was able to make plays. Cobb was single covered and could free lance. He usually had the #3 corner on him and he could beat him. Adams had either the #1 corner who took him out of the game or the #2 corner whom he sometimes could beat. This team has Adams facing the #1 corner whom he can't beat. Cobb facing the #3 corner with safety help and he doesn't get open. Jones facing the #2 corner and sometimes he gets 100 yards and sometimes he gets nothing. I just don't see a magic fix for our problems.

Yep, good analysis of the WR's. I just wish they would use bunch formations or motion, something. Think of how often we see the opposition bunch WR's and how often a guy comes open due to somebody blowing coverage (i.e. the TD to Miller last night). We rarely do that, and when we have it has worked. Montgomery scored TD against Rams when he and Cobb lined up next to each other and both DB's followed Cobb. Montgomery had the entire middle of the field to himself.

[LEWCWA]

the back shoulder balls to jordy aren't there that I have seen this season....get db's thinking back shoulder then you can beat them deep...also when I see a guy running free deep Rodgers has been missing them badly....and well 5-6 drops a game don't help either.....I would get Janis open on some slants force feed him balls on slants and outs.....if he could show he could make those plays you could get him open deep a couple times a game. Monty was really developing into the guy that was replacing Jordy....we need him back big time, but it might be too late...

[Bretsky]

ok, maybe it is all adams fault

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/27/aaron-rodgers-has-a-davante-adams-problem/


Was at the game last night; random thoughts

Adams needs to be a #3 WR; he runs average routes at best and his hands are erratic

Cobb is on and off with his routes; seems to turn his effort on and off as well

Janis and Jones routes are completed shit; Jones makes a rounded circle over a sharp cut. Janis just runs crappy routes and it's no wonder AROD doesn't trust the guy. I wouldn't either.

This team missed Abby and Montgomery; many dig on Abby but he's a very crisp, reliable, and solid route runner. He just can't stay healthy. Montgomery I thought was a pretty good route runner as well.

[Bretsky]

ONE MORE THING; ALLEN ROBINSON WOULD LOOK GOOD IN GREEN AND GOLD

[mraynrand]

This team missed Abby and Montgomery; many dig on Abby but he's a very crisp, reliable, and solid route runner. He just can't stay healthy. Montgomery I thought was a pretty good route runner as well.

Nah. people were pretty amped about Abracadabra. You can tell he has skills. I was at the SD game when Monty got hurt. Somehow, that was the final straw for the offense. They've been in a funk ever since. I really think it's the overall skill level at depth. Adams, Cobb, Abra, Monty, and Jones/Janis is a pretty decent five man WR group (switch Jones and Janis out for possession/fly pattern). But they need all that depth because Adams and Cobb are not #1 receivers. Adams has a chance to be a #1 assuming he's still not 100% at the ankle and gets hand transplants.

[beveaux1]

The Packers usual formation calls for 2 outside receivers that I'll call #1 and #2, and a slot receiver that I'll call #3. Last year's primary receivers were #1 Nelson, #2 Adams, and #3 Cobb. Adams replaced Boykin who had replaced Jones who left as a free agent. The outside receivers learn the option routes in McCarthy's version of the west coast based upon defensive scheme (man, zone, 2 deep coverage, blitz packages, etc) as well as the technique of the DB (inside position, outside position, trail, etc). Based upon what we've seen for the past 24 years of this offense, it takes around 3 years for an outside receiver to contribute heavily in this offense. Slot receivers are a little different. They appear to do less route running and a little bit more free form running. At least with Cobb, it took until his 2nd year to have an impact on the offense. A receiver with very little big college experience takes longer to develop. Driver took more than 4 years to develop. I suspect that Janis falls into that category. The injury to Nelson was extremely significant. McCarthy and Rodgers expected Adams to move into the #1 position. They acquired Jones to take the #2 position, with Cobb at #3.

Rodgers talked at length before the season about what a big leap Adams had made and expected great success with him. Unfortunately, early in the season, Adams went down with an ankle, and McCarthy had to shift on the fly. He moved Cobb to #1, Jones at #2, and pushed the development of Montgomery at #3. Defenses doubled Cobb, left one defender on Jones, and a #3 CB or a LB on Montgomery. Jones had some success and we started to see Montgomery developing as a short threat. Adams came back, but at the same time Montgomery went down with an ankle. I feel like the plan would have been to use Montgomery and Cobb as slots and reduce playing time for R Rodgers. Adams took a couple of games to get back into the flow and Cobb started seeing doubles as a slot receiver. That was the start of our offensive misery.

I believe they game planned in the Detroit game to target Adams against a relatively week secondary. The purpose was to establish Adams as a genuine #1. In subsequent games, Adams would receive some doubles and Cobb would be able to revert to his role from last year. That plan backfired as Adams suffered drops, no YAC, and an inability to separate from a lone defender, as well as some mis-run routes due to not being on the same page as Rodgers. I believe Rodgers all but called him by saying more time should be spent during the week on preparation and being professional. I forgot to add that Abredaris was called to duty to replace Montgomery in one game in order to test the 2 slot receiver concept, but his fragility came back to stop that experiment even though we had some success.

I'm going to stop short of calling Adams a bust. He's in his 2nd year, in a crash course due to injury, in a program that usually takes 3 years of preparation. Maybe, if Montgomery or Abredaris comes back, we can try the 2 slot receiver look, and find some success. Short of that, I believe this year will be a real struggle on offense.

[Bretsky]

That was a GREAT analysis Beveaux

Not to boot, with all these injuries combined with the failures of Adams it really Magnifies TT's complete failure to bring in anything that resembles a threat....or even an average starter, at TE.

[beveaux1]

I've got to give John Fox a tremendous amount of credit for taking an outmanned football team to Lambeau, sticking to his game plan, and beating us. His plan to play just 7 in the box and allow us to run and to rush just 4, give Rodgers openings to run if he wanted to take it, and play coverage, was probably all he could do with his limited personnel. Even with our running success, he knew we'd face 3rd and short, and have to convert time after time to complete a drive. He never came out of that defense, and he knew our tendency to run to open up the pass. He didn't bring an 8th man in the box, and he knew our receivers couldn't beat him. Even with that, we had to turn the ball over twice in order for them to get the win. Excellent job of coaching.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If all this analysis is correct (and I think it pretty much is), then no wonder our offense is stalled in PARK. Not only did TT fail the team (he should have brought in a seasoned replacement as soon as Jordy went down; plus, starting TE's were available in free agency) but Stubby and Clements should have dialed back their complicated system to something that could be implemented with the talent available.

Isn't the job of a good coach to get the most out of the players he has, rather than try to force square peg players into the round holes of the system?

[beveaux1]

That was a GREAT analysis Beveaux

Not to boot, with all these injuries combined with the failures of Adams it really Magnifies TT's complete failure to bring in anything that resembles a threat....or even an average starter, at TE.

In TT's defense, he could not really anticipate losing Nelson for the season, having Adams and Montgomery get injured, or having Lacy struggle the first half of the season. Not to mention the very weak TE group from last year's draft. I didn't anticipate R Rodgers looking slower than he did last year or Quarless basically missing the whole year.

[beveaux1]

If all this analysis is correct (and I think it pretty much is), then no wonder our offense is stalled in PARK. Not only did TT fail the team (he should have brought in a seasoned replacement as soon as Jordy went down; plus, starting TE's were available in free agency) but Stubby and Clements should have dialed back their complicated system to something that could be implemented with the talent available.

Isn't the job of a good coach to get the most out of the players he has, rather than try to force square peg players into the round holes of the system?

He did bring in Jones. I think that might have been the best he could do. Everybody anticipated (hoped for) Adams to make the jump. Nearly impossible to pick up a #1 that knows your system 2 games into the pre-season.

[beveaux1]

It's kind of a trickle down effect. Rodgers and the rest of the offense knows the system. Implementing a new system, even one that is less complicated takes time and practice, which they didn't have. Besides, I'm not sure that what we're seeing isn't a scaled back offense that fits the personnel available. There have been very few attempted back shoulder throws. Almost no multiple routes attempting to get someone deep. It's been a VERY basic offense. That might be why we're seeing so much hesitation on the part of Rodgers in the pocket. Been just kind of the perfect storm.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's kind of a trickle down effect. Rodgers and the rest of the offense knows the system. Implementing a new system, even one that is less complicated takes time and practice, which they didn't have. Besides, I'm not sure that what we're seeing isn't a scaled back offense that fits the personnel available. There have been very few attempted back shoulder throws. Almost no multiple routes attempting to get someone deep. It's been a VERY basic offense. That might be why we're seeing so much hesitation on the part of Rodgers in the pocket. Been just kind of the perfect storm.

So what you're saying, really, is our offensive system was so fragile that the loss of one guy (not the QB) could make it all cave in on itself. Now we're screwed big time. Is that about it?

[beveaux1]

So what you're saying, really, is our offensive system was so fragile that the loss of one guy (not the QB) could make it all cave in on itself. Now we're screwed big time. Is that about it?

No. What I'm saying is the loss of Nelson, Montgomery, Adams (five games), Quarless, Lacy (for whatever reason for 8 games), even Abredaris, has hindered the offense and that it won't look like last years offense. This game was very winnable. We turned the ball over twice leading to 7 points and taking at least 3 away from us. We failed to score from the 8 in four tries at the end of the game. I'm a fan and I want them to be the same as last year, but they aren't. This team reminds me of the Schroeder years with Favre. We had so many injuries, we played a punt returner as a starting receiver and never got any YAC. I believe we still won 10 games, but every one was a struggle. Other parts of the team will have to pick up the offense for us to win and we probably won't have many blowout victories.

[beveaux1]

It's very easy to say "next man up" but when you look at your bench and the only wide receiver available is Janis, or you look at the tight ends and all you have is Perillo and Backman, or you look at the OL on the field and every one of them was limited in practice this week, I think there's a very good reason for the inefficiencies on that side of the ball.

[Maxie the Taxi]

No. What I'm saying is the loss of Nelson, Montgomery, Adams (five games), Quarless, Lacy (for whatever reason for 8 games), even Abredaris, has hindered the offense and that it won't look like last years offense. This game was very winnable. We turned the ball over twice leading to 7 points and taking at least 3 away from us. We failed to score from the 8 in four tries at the end of the game. I'm a fan and I want them to be the same as last year, but they aren't. This team reminds me of the Schroeder years with Favre. We had so many injuries, we played a punt returner as a starting receiver and never got any YAC. I believe we still won 10 games, but every one was a struggle. Other parts of the team will have to pick up the offense for us to win and we probably won't have many blowout victories.

I hear what you're saying, and I understand injuries. However, what you're saying assumes that the offense would be fixed if the people we lost to injuries come back. I would agree with that in the case of Nelson, but that's as far as it goes. Adams is back. Quarless coming back won't be the answer to anything. Montgomery and Abby are basically rookies who, you said yourself, can't really be counted on to produce untilk they get more experience. Even Lacy coming back doesn't seem to be himself. So really to me it comes down to either lack of real talent or our offensive schemes being dependent on one man (Nelson), a mediocre TE (Quarless) and untested rooks (Monty and Abby).

That's not a lot to look forward to.

[pbmax]

I hear what you're saying, and I understand injuries. However, what you're saying assumes that the offense would be fixed if the people we lost to injuries come back. I would agree with that in the case of Nelson, but that's as far as it goes. Adams is back. Quarless coming back won't be the answer to anything. Montgomery and Abby are basically rookies who, you said yourself, can't really be counted on to produce untilk they get more experience. Even Lacy coming back doesn't seem to be himself. So really to me it comes down to either lack of real talent or our offensive schemes being dependent on one man (Nelson), a mediocre TE (Quarless) and untested rooks (Monty and Abby).

That's not a lot to look forward to.

I disagree a bit with Monty, he is shifty enough that he is a nightmare in man on man matches short and he threatens with YAC if not game breaking ability. He did earlier this year, what Cobb did until they devoted the best CB to him.

He is a rookie, so they probably cannot run the offense through him, but I think he helps more than Abby or Adams immediately.

[pbmax]

Rodgers liked Adams because he is as big as Nelson and so man coverage has a whale of a time getting hands on him to stop or redirect. I assume, though have no proof other than playing time, that he is better at routes and being where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there than Janis. That INT last night is what happens when you aren't. Rodgers doesn't complete a lot of slants to Cobb for a reason. Adams is big enough to run those, absorb contact and make the catch.

It would be good for his to start. He just isn't doing that this year with the injury, rehab and catching up to speed.

The other two players who should be helping mitigate the loss of Nelson are Monty, who was doing just that by abusing man coverage and Magical Abby, who was just recovering from last year's injury.

Someone said Ted should have gotten a vet when Nelson was injured. I am pretty sure he did that and that vet shows one of the two reasons you don't do that. He hasn't got a ton left in the tank. The other problem is likelihood of injury, which the younger players have taken care of nicely.

Monty getting re-hurt is horrible timing and might have been the most costly mistake this year. If they were pushing it by practicing early, it might cost their offense four games of ineptitude.

Someone else said Cobb is known for his hands and routes. He might be known for his hands, but he is also known for his drops. And Cobb's best routes are on broken plays.

But the culprit most easily fixed is this divide over the playbook offense and Rodger's offense that everyone was talking about in the offseason. When you have to start youngsters, that isn't helping. At this point, there aren't any youngsters left to worry about. But Monty will be back at some point I hope.

The current version of the no huddle also has to go. I think this is the loss that will compel M3 to change up the offense, junk the offseason plan and go back to basics of design. As someone else said, they have fixed the run game to some degree. Time for the same work on the passing game.

[Smidgeon]

The Packers usual formation calls for 2 outside receivers that I'll call #1 and #2, and a slot receiver that I'll call #3. Last year's primary receivers were #1 Nelson, #2 Adams, and #3 Cobb. Adams replaced Boykin who had replaced Jones who left as a free agent. The outside receivers learn the option routes in McCarthy's version of the west coast based upon defensive scheme (man, zone, 2 deep coverage, blitz packages, etc) as well as the technique of the DB (inside position, outside position, trail, etc). Based upon what we've seen for the past 24 years of this offense, it takes around 3 years for an outside receiver to contribute heavily in this offense. Slot receivers are a little different. They appear to do less route running and a little bit more free form running. At least with Cobb, it took until his 2nd year to have an impact on the offense. A receiver with very little big college experience takes longer to develop. Driver took more than 4 years to develop. I suspect that Janis falls into that category. The injury to Nelson was extremely significant. McCarthy and Rodgers expected Adams to move into the #1 position. They acquired Jones to take the #2 position, with Cobb at #3.

Rodgers talked at length before the season about what a big leap Adams had made and expected great success with him. Unfortunately, early in the season, Adams went down with an ankle, and McCarthy had to shift on the fly. He moved Cobb to #1, Jones at #2, and pushed the development of Montgomery at #3. Defenses doubled Cobb, left one defender on Jones, and a #3 CB or a LB on Montgomery. Jones had some success and we started to see Montgomery developing as a short threat. Adams came back, but at the same time Montgomery went down with an ankle. I feel like the plan would have been to use Montgomery and Cobb as slots and reduce playing time for R Rodgers. Adams took a couple of games to get back into the flow and Cobb started seeing doubles as a slot receiver. That was the start of our offensive misery.

I believe they game planned in the Detroit game to target Adams against a relatively week secondary. The purpose was to establish Adams as a genuine #1. In subsequent games, Adams would receive some doubles and Cobb would be able to revert to his role from last year. That plan backfired as Adams suffered drops, no YAC, and an inability to separate from a lone defender, as well as some mis-run routes due to not being on the same page as Rodgers. I believe Rodgers all but called him by saying more time should be spent during the week on preparation and being professional. I forgot to add that Abredaris was called to duty to replace Montgomery in one game in order to test the 2 slot receiver concept, but his fragility came back to stop that experiment even though we had some success.

I'm going to stop short of calling Adams a bust. He's in his 2nd year, in a crash course due to injury, in a program that usually takes 3 years of preparation. Maybe, if Montgomery or Abredaris comes back, we can try the 2 slot receiver look, and find some success. Short of that, I believe this year will be a real struggle on offense.

Post more often.

[Teamcheez1]

I'm not buying that the receivers and the execution are the only issue with this team. Many teams end up in similar situations as the Packers and they adjust accordingly. The game plan and the play-calling share at least as much blame as the players. The Patriots seem to be losing a WR or RB every week and they find a way to integrate new players and schemes into their offense. MM is either unwilling or unable to do the same, and Clements follows suit. I've seen the same game plan and formations trotted out every week with miserable results.

[mraynrand]

Janis is the game

[denverYooper]

I keep hearing how the Patriots keep rolling but the Patriots offense has struggled more and more as they've lost guys. Their overall numbers are mostly inflated due to some early season blowouts. They are not just plugging Schmoes in and churning out the same offensive production. They are still winning because of very good defense and special teams combined with an offense that can do just enough.

The Patriots had a real tough time at home against Buffalo. Why? Because Buffalo has a strong, aggressive defense. If Buffalo had any kind of offense, they would have won.

The Patriots are going to be matching up against a strong defense on the road again this week. It will be an interesting game. The Patriots are in good position to win but it will be more because of their defense, not their offense. If Brady gets hit 15 more times this week he'll start to look a little skittish too. Denver fans are feeling doomed but I think the Broncos have a pretty legitimate shot to win this week because of their defense.

Let's not pretend the Patriots are just running some outstanding offense these days. Combined with their very strong defense/STs it is enough to win, but that is it. If Gronk went down, the Patriots offense would probably drop down into Packer-level funk.

[mraynrand]

That Gillette stadium field looks better than Lambeau, so lush and green.

[beveaux1]

Rodgers liked Adams because he is as big as Nelson and so man coverage has a whale of a time getting hands on him to stop or redirect. I assume, though have no proof other than playing time, that he is better at routes and being where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there than Janis. That INT last night is what happens when you aren't. Rodgers doesn't complete a lot of slants to Cobb for a reason. Adams is big enough to run those, absorb contact and make the catch.

It would be good for his to start. He just isn't doing that this year with the injury, rehab and catching up to speed.

The other two players who should be helping mitigate the loss of Nelson are Monty, who was doing just that by abusing man coverage and Magical Abby, who was just recovering from last year's injury.

Someone said Ted should have gotten a vet when Nelson was injured. I am pretty sure he did that and that vet shows one of the two reasons you don't do that. He hasn't got a ton left in the tank. The other problem is likelihood of injury, which the younger players have taken care of nicely.

Monty getting re-hurt is horrible timing and might have been the most costly mistake this year. If they were pushing it by practicing early, it might cost their offense four games of ineptitude.

Someone else said Cobb is known for his hands and routes. He might be known for his hands, but he is also known for his drops. And Cobb's best routes are on broken plays.

But the culprit most easily fixed is this divide over the playbook offense and Rodger's offense that everyone was talking about in the offseason. When you have to start youngsters, that isn't helping. At this point, there aren't any youngsters left to worry about. But Monty will be back at some point I hope.

The current version of the no huddle also has to go. I think this is the loss that will compel M3 to change up the offense, junk the offseason plan and go back to basics of design. As someone else said, they have fixed the run game to some degree. Time for the same work on the passing game.

McCarthy really doesn't have very many bullets left in his gun. In 2010 we were hit with a similar group of injuries and didn't start coming together as a team until the last few games. If I remember correctly, the NFC that year was pretty weak. We went in as a number 6 seed and ended up winning the Super Bowl. It's kind of eerie how similar this season is to that one. There's still a lot of football to be played in December. Maybe Montgomery and Abrederis coming back allows us to adjust the offense to a 4 wide look with 2 slot receivers, similar to New England. Maybe the light comes on for Adams. It will be interesting.

[Rutnstrut]

McCarthy really doesn't have very many bullets left in his gun. In 2010 we were hit with a similar group of injuries and didn't start coming together as a team until the last few games. If I remember correctly, the NFC that year was pretty weak. We went in as a number 6 seed and ended up winning the Super Bowl. It's kind of eerie how similar this season is to that one. There's still a lot of football to be played in December. Maybe Montgomery and Abrederis coming back allows us to adjust the offense to a 4 wide look with 2 slot receivers, similar to New England. Maybe the light comes on for Adams. It will be interesting.

Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.

[denverYooper]

Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.

Rodgers and the offense struggled during several games that season. They were 10th in ppg that year. 11th this year with enough games left to move up yet.

The 2010 comarison is not as far out of line as you seem to think.

[mraynrand]

Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.

Rodgers looked like total garbage at Detroit before his concussion. He definitely got on a roll, but still struggled with Chicago. The Defense pulled their own weight that season.

DYoop is right - this team could look like 2010, but they'd have to hit their stride with Abracadabra and Monty and maybe Q-less. They need their depth to come through, just like it did in 2010 (e.g. Shields, Walden, Green...)