Is the current state of the Packers the result of one or more of the off season changes?

[Patler]

We've hinted at this in several threads, I thought a focused thread might be interesting. The offense generally and the passing game particularly look worse than any time in recent memory. Are the offenses struggles the result of

- a new play caller?
- a new OC?
- changes in QB and WR coaching structure?

I keep coming back to the third. The WRs are struggling, and more concerning is the fact that all of a sudden Rodgers and the WRs are playing different games.

The whole idea of having Van Pelt coach both was that having the two groups together would foster even a greater coordination and common understanding. It was supposed to ensure that Rodgers and his WRs would see the same things and respond the same way. But just the opposite has occurred. There seems to be less of a common understanding than in the past.

Is Van Pelt just poor at coaching WRs?
Do the combined groups get too little specialized attention?
Is the supervision/coaching too diluted?

Or, are the problems this year:
- play calling?
- An OC who is inexperienced or a poor choice? or
- just one of those things that happen sometime?

[pbmax]

1. [structure] Splitting McCarthy from game planning might hurt tweaks to weekly game plans. But hard to say how much he has left it behind.

2. [structure] Coordination between QB and WR has been terrible. But this one is tough to judge because all parties are limited by injury.

3. Injuries. Have made all the above (if true) worse.

[mraynrand]

4. Video games

[Patler]

That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. Where did this video game thing come from? I have seen several writers mention it in articles. Did MM or one of the other coaches or players say something about players and video games?

[mraynrand]

I heard about it on the game broadcast. That it got to national media suggests its a real problem.

But I also heard Favre joke about crocs so I'm not sure about anything anymore.

[Patler]

I just saw Daugherty has an article about the same subjects as this thread:

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/12/02/rodgers-packers-search-answers/76608146/

[Patler]

I heard about it on the game broadcast. That it got to national media suggests its a real problem.


Did they mention a source for it?

[mraynrand]

Did they mention a source for it?

Not 100% certain, but I think it was in talks with Rodgers. If true, it's bad to have the QB open up about that with Collinsworth and Miracleboy.

[Pugger]

IMO one of the main reasons the offense is struggling is because of the coaching structure with Van Pelt in charge of both the QBs and WRs. I truly believe these 2 positions need their own individual coach. Combining this is the only real big difference this year compared to the past and now our offense is struggling.

[pbmax]

I just saw Daugherty has an article about the same subjects as this thread:

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/12/02/rodgers-packers-search-answers/76608146/

This quote is for Maxie:


Another theoretically is Jeff Janis, who finally appears to have worked into the playing rotation this week.

[mraynrand]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/spo...wers/76608146/

reading this makes you feel good they drafted Hundley.

[Patler]

IMO one of the main reasons the offense is struggling is because of the coaching structure with Van Pelt in charge of both the QBs and WRs. I truly believe these 2 positions need their own individual coach. Combining this is the only real big difference this year compared to the past and now our offense is struggling.

In terms of significance, I would rate a new play caller as the most significant change in the off season, and a new OC as the second most significant. Combining QB and WR coaching seemed unusual to me when it happened, but not as big of a deal. I blame it for the situation now because not only has it not accomplished what it was hoped to, those qualities have actually regressed from the past.

They talk over and over about WRs having to earn Rodger's trust. Are the WRs less willing to ask question or otherwise look unsure when watching film with Rodgers because he won't trust them?

It will be interesting to see if MM goes back to separate groups in the off season.

[Patler]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/spo...wers/76608146/

reading this makes you feel good they drafted Hundley.

Your link took me to a page saying the sory has been moved.
What is it about?

[mraynrand]

Your link took me to a page saying the sory has been moved.
What is it about?

weird. Just talking about why Rodgers is playing worse. Just reminded me that the dude is in his thirties and the slide is inevitable. He might have 6-8 more good years or 2. He's like a ten year old car. Could last for a while but you might be junking it tomorrow.

[Patler]

weird. Just talking about why Rodgers is playing worse. Just reminded me that the dude is in his thirties and the slide is inevitable. He might have 6-8 more good years or 2. He's like a ten year old car. Could last for a while but you might be junking it tomorrow.

I've been thinking the same thing. Some QBs play some of their best football in the early and mid 30s. But some athletes lose it in their early 30s. Hard to know where Rodgers will fall in that scale. We could be seeing the start of it. Hopefully not, and the Rodgers we have come to expect will be around for several years yet, followed by an even smarter and even wiser Rodgers when his physical skills do begin to diminish for good.

[Deputy Nutz]

Change in offensive philosophy over the past few seasons. With significant injuries to the receiving core, and to the offensive line the deep route passing game is no longer working. Short to intermediate route passing structures that made the West Coast offensive is no longer being utilized in Green Bay. I think we have known that for some time, but with the injuries it is problematic, now when they try to run the quick strike offense there is no timing or aptitude for it. You would think having one coach for QB and receivers would actually help keep them all on the same page.

The coaching positions is also a pretty interesting reflection on the problems of the current offense. I think they had to promote several guys to keep them in Green Bay. Bennett is an offensive coordinator in name only. I don't know how you could be an offensive coordinator but yet another assistant coach is calling the plays. It makes no sense.

[pbmax]

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 7m7 minutes ago
The packers literally have no one scouting free agents and other pro teams for potential talent.

This person has it figured out; the pro personnel department is faking its expense reports.

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 14m14 minutes ago
Not having an owner has filled 1265 Lombardi Avenue with a complacency that has no place in pro sports or in any business.

Huge, if true. I would recommend divesting yourself of all public companies as well.

[pbmax]

I am not sure the Packers have the receivers to run the West Coast Offense, at least the Holmgren flavored one. The best route runners are Magic and Jones. One is hurt, the other is waiting for another opportunity to be hurt again.

Janis is concentrating so hard on getting the steps right on a route, he doesn't catch the ball in practice.

Cobb is a receiver in a Belichick offense, not WCO. Maybe a slot guy, but not the primary target.

Adams SHOULD be that guy, but he is young and not healthy either.

M3 needs a Frankenstein Pass Offense at this point. Or maybe a Frankenbacker?

https://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Browns-vs-Packers/i-QbPBC5x/0/M/Packers%20Browns%20Footba_News-M.jpg

[Cheesehead Craig]

Agree with others that the WRs need a separate coach. Their play has dropped off noticeably this season. I think Rodgers is losing confidence in them as a group and thus starts questioning himself, which brings down his level of play.

I think next season with Jordy returning, the offense will bounce back (assuming a separate WR coach is brought in/promoted and that's all he does). Doesn't help us this season, but I'm not all that sure this season is salvagable short of a one and done playoff run.

[pbmax]

BTW, if you google Frankenbacker Packers you get a lot of PackerRats hits. But also evidence that Football's Future and PackerNews.net are stealing our stuff.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am not sure the Packers have the receivers to run the West Coast Offense, at least the Holmgren flavored one. The best route runners are Magic and Jones. One is hurt, the other is waiting for another opportunity to be hurt again.

Janis is concentrating so hard on getting the steps right on a route, he doesn't catch the ball in practice.

Cobb is a receiver in a Belichick offense, not WCO. Maybe a slot guy, but not the primary target.



Adams SHOULD be that guy, but he is young and not healthy either.

I am not quite sure that Belichick's offense is much different from the West Coast.

Big issue with offense is the lack of a TE. Rodgers struggles making the TE look good, fortunately for Rodgers Rodgers does it on his own.

[Fritz]

This year's Spencer Havner - Ripkowsi plays fullback AND tight end - is the answer.

Put him on one side, Quarless on the other, and run Lacy 25 times a game and Starks 10. That'll solve the receiver problem - they can't drop it if they don't get it thrown to them.

[KYPack]

Nut Bag, good to see ya posting.

Some of the problems are talked about in this thread.

Shots of the sideline in recent games show the "brain trust" pissin' themselves. Clements looks freaked and Bennet looks lost. Not only does Edgar look lost, but I notice that he seems to ease himself out of the picture, as if distancing himself from the action.

The mark of a good playcaller (QB or OC type guy) is he always has a play in his pocket. With Clements, he has no plays in his back pocket, in fact, there's a hole in his pocket and he's grabbing himself in the ass most of the time.

One of the big plays they used to run was sprint right option with a fan. You all know the drill, Rodgers rolls right and the 3 receivers run a shallow cross, a dig or curl and a deep route for him to pick the best option. Rodgers tosses one to the open guy or takes a 5-10 yard run, depending on what's open. Well, that shit don't work anymore. For one thing, Bulaga is playing on one leg and can't get the point blocked up. So ARod rolls into a big ass DE who is about to eat him alive. He can't run and gets hammered if he tosses the pass. Lately, sprint right option results in a two yard loss, at best.

Now it's second and 12. The sideline shot shows Clements freakin' the hell out. He skitzes out for a bit and finally sends in the call to Arod. It's no good either and you can see that Rodgers is pissed by all this. Second down doesn't work and now it's 3rd and long and Clements has zero bullets in his gun. Tom C looks and looks at the laminated sheet, but there is no answers there. Now Rodgers is staring at the sideline, looking like he's about to get a root canal. A few times, Rodgers has pulled off some 3rd and longs, but over the last few weeks, he hasn't.

There's failure across the board. Pass pro has been mixed to non-existent. Route running has been weak and lackadaisical. Playcalling? half assed. The only two aspects of the offense that have sort of worked are the running game and Rodgers passing and both of those elements tune out from time to time.

What can we do? Well, I don't know what will work, but I know what we've got to try. They are taking away some of our old staples on offense. We've got work the areas of the defense that they've weakened to make those adjustments. Unleash Kuhn, two TE's, & the Ripper until our passing attack gets back on track. This will create room to try and establish new basics to our O. Our WR's must get open with aggressive and new routes.

We've got to be aggressive, fold back our ears and haul ass.

[pbmax]

I am not quite sure that Belichick's offense is much different from the West Coast.

Big issue with offense is the lack of a TE. Rodgers struggles making the TE look good, fortunately for Rodgers Rodgers does it on his own.

Agree. While I understand confusion about why Janis' doesn't get more snaps, I don't understand why Perillo isn't out there more. He must not block a lick right now.

[mraynrand]

Agree. While I understand confusion about why Janis' doesn't get more snaps, I don't understand why Perillo isn't out there more. He must not block a lick right now.

blocking has to be it. They need to roll out the barrel!!

[pbmax]

blocking has to be it. They need to roll out the barrel!!

The Fuckdoggle Award should be his bust with his hair flowing around his helmet.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think for McCarthy he fell on his sword from the fallout from the Seattle game. He took the shots and gave up play calling which I think was a total mistake on his part. Regardless all the plays are still going through McCarthy. It's not like he isn't paying attention to what is being called through the headset. He is either giving Clements complete freedom to call the plays, or McCarthy is sinking in the same boat as Clements.

So much is wrong with this offense it is really hard to pinpoint anything in particular. They were supposed to be an up tempo offense and they seem to struggle beating the shot clock.

Also we can't over look the fact that they simply might not have enough bullets in the chamber. Has Thompson done enough at the TE position since Finley? I would say no. Next off season is going to be interesting considering the offensive line needs better talent at the book ends. I like Bulaga but his knees are shot and he isn't going to be able to give the Packers a solid 16 games any more. Right Tackle should be a major concern and our guards have taken a step backwards this year. After focusing heavy on defense the past 6 years or so in the draft Thompson is going to have to refill the tank on offense at some point. Especially when you look at what a huge step back the Packers young guys have taken this year.

[beveaux1]

I don't think different offensive playcallers, or WRs and QBs at the same meeting have much to do with the problems the Packers have shown on offense. I also don't think that stale plays or plays that the defense knows what is coming has a lot to do with the problems. Winning football is actually pretty simple. Whether you run the wishbone, regular pro set, or the WCO, it all comes down to executing the play. You beat the man you're supposed to beat, the guy next to you beats his man, etc., you have a successful play. If every wide receiver that's playing is nursing an injury and playing at less than 100%, they're not beating the player across from them. If your QB is nursing a leg injury and a shoulder injury, he might not be able to put the ball exactly where he wants to. He also may not want to run it if there's an opening. If every lineman is on the injury report and they're basically toughing it out to play every week. That doesn't mean they are at 100%. It means that sometimes they can't reach the rusher and they get beat.

I understand that every team is hurt this time of year, but if you look at the injury reports for those teams, there is not nearly as wide spread a problem as there seems to be for this team. I'm also not saying that the injury problems cause every play to fail. What I'm saying is that it's enough of a problem to keep us from stringing 6 first downs in a row. The bad plays kill drives and prevent scoring opportunities. It's not a coincidence that the game our starting field position for each drive was at its best, we scored 30 points. We still couldn't score touchdowns, but we were able to kick long field goals.

I don't think we can "play call" our way out of this slump. Our guys have to beat the man across from them on a consistent basis. That just hasn't been happening.

[pbmax]

The Packers have had trouble with tight man or press coverage at other times, this isn't recent on the WRs part. Even with Nelson, San Fran was able to bottle the pass attack up. You add that to less than stellar pass pro AND Rodgers getting hit 60 times in 3 game plus a bum shoulder, you have an pass offense stalling against man to man.

Other than San Fran or Seattle, Rodgers could just escape and wait for someone to break coverage. Man doesn't last for 5 seconds. But Rodgers isn't either anymore.

They do need to call something different. These receivers aren't going to change mid-year and Adams is a slim reed to base hope upon.

[Smidgeon]

BTW, if you google Frankenbacker Packers you get a lot of PackerRats hits. But also evidence that Football's Future and PackerNews.net are stealing our stuff.

Further evidence this board is a million times better (as if personal experience didn't already indicate that truth).

[Patler]

I think for McCarthy he fell on his sword from the fallout from the Seattle game. He took the shots and gave up play calling which I think was a total mistake on his part.

I didn't want him to give up play calling, but I also came to the realization that he had to, if he was indeed going to function as an effective HC. When he admitted that he was not aware that/why Matthews had taken himself out of the game for the last two Seattle drives, it became clear his focus was too concentrated in one area. How many other things happened in that game without his knowledge? He has talked about how much in game focus play calling requires. Maybe some others can do it, but I think it consumed MM too much.

[mraynrand]

When he admitted that he was not aware that/why Matthews had taken himself out of the game for the last two Seattle drives, it became clear his focus was too concentrated in one area.

do we know the answer to this yet? Maybe my memory is going, but I cannot recall ever seeing this.

[pbmax]

do we know the answer to this yet? Maybe my memory is going, but I cannot recall ever seeing this.

His knee and another part of his leg (hamstring I think) were giving him problems. He said it was the accumulation of wear and tear over the season more than one injury.

[mraynrand]

I understand that every team is hurt this time of year, but if you look at the injury reports for those teams, there is not nearly as wide spread a problem as there seems to be for this team. I'm also not saying that the injury problems cause every play to fail. What I'm saying is that it's enough of a problem to keep us from stringing 6 first downs in a row. The bad plays kill drives and prevent scoring opportunities.

that's why you play the hungry young men like Perillo and Rip. Ripkowski wants to take it to the defense. He should get 5 touches. He could be Mr. Checkdown - the one guy the defense can't account for. Perillo should get at least 5 targets, right up the middle, splitting that man over WR defense. Abby should get his two passes, before, like a poor man's Terry Glenn, he goes out with his weekly injury.

[mraynrand]

His knee and another part of his leg (hamstring I think) were giving him problems. He said it was the accumulation of wear and tear over the season more than one injury.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFevXiuCEAAtE6b.jpg

[Bossman641]

Not 100% certain, but I think it was in talks with Rodgers. If true, it's bad to have the QB open up about that with Collinsworth and Miracleboy.

Collingsworth brought it up during the Bears game. Rodgers later spoke up and said Collingsworth was wrong in his explanation of it.


However, Rodgers said it has not reached the point at which the team would call a players-only meeting, despite a mention of one during NBC's telecast of the Packers' 17-13 loss to the Chicago Bears on Thursday.

During the third quarter, NBC analyst Cris Collinsworth said, "They had a little players-only meeting this past couple weeks ago before that Minnesota game. I don't think Aaron Rodgers was too happy with the preparation schedule of some of the young players on this team. A few too many video games being played and not enough homework."

Coach Mike McCarthy said Sunday that he was unaware of any such meeting, and Rodgers said there was no meeting.

"First of all, it's false," Rodgers said. "It didn't happen in the way that he explained it. I saw something about guys were worried about people playing video games. Sometimes, in those production meetings, obviously, the message doesn't get conveyed the right away or whoever [NBC sideline reporter] Michele [Tafoya] talked to or Cris, I don't know what he was referring to there, but I heard the comments, and it's just not true.

"There wasn't any players-only meeting, no. There's meetings with the offense all the time. We break up offense and defense, we break up into position groups, but there wasn't anything resembling what he talked about, from what I heard. I didn't see the broadcast."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14255193/aaron-rodgers-green-bay-packers-criticizes-team-preparation-denies-players-only-meeting

[red]

That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. Where did this video game thing come from? I have seen several writers mention it in articles. Did MM or one of the other coaches or players say something about players and video games?

collinsworth mentioned it during the game that rodgers told him. i don't know if the exact reason was video games, or if a-rod just mentioned the preparation from the young guys was sucked, and collinsworth equated that to be people playing video games or otherwise screwing off. i can't imagine there would be a giant screen TV with a ps4 hooked up in one of the meeting rooms for guys to play all day

pft picked up on it and has been blasting a-rod for publicly throwing his team mates under the bus on national TV. the big question from PFT is whether the young guys will respond by stepping up, or if it will cause a greater rift in the locker room

[Bossman641]

I don't think different offensive playcallers, or WRs and QBs at the same meeting have much to do with the problems the Packers have shown on offense. I also don't think that stale plays or plays that the defense knows what is coming has a lot to do with the problems. Winning football is actually pretty simple. Whether you run the wishbone, regular pro set, or the WCO, it all comes down to executing the play. You beat the man you're supposed to beat, the guy next to you beats his man, etc., you have a successful play. If every wide receiver that's playing is nursing an injury and playing at less than 100%, they're not beating the player across from them. If your QB is nursing a leg injury and a shoulder injury, he might not be able to put the ball exactly where he wants to. He also may not want to run it if there's an opening. If every lineman is on the injury report and they're basically toughing it out to play every week. That doesn't mean they are at 100%. It means that sometimes they can't reach the rusher and they get beat.

I understand that every team is hurt this time of year, but if you look at the injury reports for those teams, there is not nearly as wide spread a problem as there seems to be for this team. I'm also not saying that the injury problems cause every play to fail. What I'm saying is that it's enough of a problem to keep us from stringing 6 first downs in a row. The bad plays kill drives and prevent scoring opportunities. It's not a coincidence that the game our starting field position for each drive was at its best, we scored 30 points. We still couldn't score touchdowns, but we were able to kick long field goals.

I don't think we can "play call" our way out of this slump. Our guys have to beat the man across from them on a consistent basis. That just hasn't been happening.

Ya I really think this is a big portion of it. Obviously everybody is playing through some kind of injury at this point of the season, but the offense has been playing injured since Week 1. It'd be one thing if they were just missing Jordy, but there hasn't been a single game this year where all the WR's were available and relatively healthy. We're left with a collection of 3 WR's playing at probably 75-85%, a guy who gets hurt every 10 plays, and a WR who doesn't have the trust of Rodgers.

[pbmax]

There is nothing that PFT does worse than speculate about players motivations. Unless its Xs and Os/schemes.

From Bossman's quote, its pretty obvious that someone is speculating that WRs are not up to speed on what they are being asked to do in the game plan. Or prepare for the defense they are facing that week.

Hence, they are spending nights with Xbox and not with the film cutups. Given the injuries, they are hard pressed to bench the offenders right now.

[mraynrand]

collinsworth mentioned it during the game that rodgers told him. i don't know if the exact reason was video games, or if a-rod just mentioned the preparation from the young guys was sucked, and collinsworth equated that to be people playing video games or otherwise screwing off. i can't imagine there would be a giant screen TV with a ps4 hooked up in one of the meeting rooms for guys to play all day

pft picked up on it and has been blasting a-rod for publicly throwing his team mates under the bus on national TV. the big question from PFT is whether the young guys will respond by stepping up, or if it will cause a greater rift in the locker room

Well, after the attacks (justified or not) on Guion, the 'intimidation of Rod Davis' and now this supposedly botched story (according to Bossman's cited article), maybe these guys will just be pissed enough to want to go take it out on Detroit. Or, if it's all true, they will suck at Detroit and wait to take it out on Madden 16/PS4 after the game.

[Bossman641]

Well, after the attacks (justified or not) on Guion, the 'intimidation of Rod Davis' and now this supposedly botched story (according to Bossman's cited article), maybe these guys will just be pissed enough to want to go take it out on Detroit. Or, if it's all true, they will suck at Detroit and wait to take it out on Madden 16/PS4 after the game.

I'm guessing Rodgers had a sitdown with the crew before the game and made some comment about the preparation not being up to the standards he'd like to see, and that guys should spend less time on videogames and more time studying. Collingsworth then turned that into a story about their being a team meeting over videogames.

Regarding the bolded, do you think they will play with the Packers to beat Detroit? Or with a better team?

[HowardRoark]

I
JS Comments ‏@JSComments 7m7 minutes ago
The packers literally have no one scouting free agents and other pro teams for potential talent.

This person has it figured out; the pro personnel department is faking its expense reports.

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 14m14 minutes ago
Not having an owner has filled 1265 Lombardi Avenue with a complacency that has no place in pro sports or in any business.

Huge, if true. I would recommend divesting yourself of all public companies as well.

But no voting rights. If owners could vote, Packerrats could start a hedge fund and take over enough stock to demand Aaron throws more to Janis.

#whitereceiversmatter

[pbmax]

I

But no voting rights. If owners could vote, Packerrats could start a hedge fund and take over enough stock to demand Aaron throws more to Janis.

#whitereceiversmatter

I thought the original certificates came with voting rights? Then the later ones did not. The ones sold to the public after both recent Super Bowls were no voting rights AND had their value cut to 1/1000.

Someone has to approve members to the board, don't they? Or is it strictly a self-regenerating entity at this point?