#52, Terrible Middle Linebacker

[Deputy Nutz]

Certain guys are made to play on the edge, and others just have that instinct to play in the middle. Clay Mathews is an outside player who certainly lacks the instincts to play in the middle. He has no idea how to fill the cut back lane. It seemed to me the two big runs by McFadden came from the lack of backside fill from the inside linebacker. Clay either jumps a gap and takes himself out of the play, or he is too damn slow in his reaction.

Simply put if Clay is now a full time middle linebacker I would cut his ass for the money that he is making. As an edge player I would keep him, but man he is really no better than anyone else that Packers could put out there. I understand the Packers have more depth at OLB, but he is out of his element in the inside both in the run game and in the passing game.

Now that Jake Ryan, something could be made out of that kid.

[mraynrand]

Clay Mathews is an outside player who certainly lacks the instincts to play in the middle.

I agree: He can rush from anywhere (except directly across from the elite LTs), but is most effective from the edge in run defense.

Thing is that he's far better than the other ILBs available on the squad. That's the real problem.

[pbmax]

As an edge player I would keep him, but man he is really no better than anyone else that Packers could put out there.
.

We have ample evidence that every other ILB on the roster is demonstrably worse than Clay Matthews at ILB, even given his deficiencies. Even with the gap jumping, he is the best run defender they have had out there.

[smuggler]

What pb said.

[Teamcheez1]

Jake Ryan looked worse than AJ Hawk yesterday.

[SkinBasket]

Now that Jake Ryan, something could be made out of that kid.

I found you a Christmas present, but you might have to work out a bit to fit in it.

http://sv6292.si-servers.com/images/AnimationShops/Product/medium/SIX05-SIX524.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

I don't know what happened on the long runs - I would tend to blame Clinton-Dix more than anybody else. IMO, one of the best moves they've made in recent history was moving Clay inside. It seemed to me his blitzing from the inside, combined with faking the blitz and doing a fairly good job in coverage very much outweighed the run problems. I would tend to chalk up the being out of position at times to the kind of D they were running rather than Matthews' mistakes or lack of instinct, and it seemed like there should have been safety help covering for him.

[pbmax]

There was a big run up the middle that Matthews jumped into a gap (not sure it was the wrong one) and got tangled up with a Guard. RB went right by him to his right. He could have handled that much better. Will need to see replay on the two wide ones. But the run to the Cowboys right featured the worst, out of control, run right past the RB without touching him gap fill I have seen in a while, courtesy of a Packer DB.

[Fritz]

I never miss a thigh gap.

[Deputy Nutz]

I don't know what happened on the long runs - I would tend to blame Clinton-Dix more than anybody else. IMO, one of the best moves they've made in recent history was moving Clay inside. It seemed to me his blitzing from the inside, combined with faking the blitz and doing a fairly good job in coverage very much outweighed the run problems. I would tend to chalk up the being out of position at times to the kind of D they were running rather than Matthews' mistakes or lack of instinct, and it seemed like there should have been safety help covering for him.

What the fuck games have you been watching?

[Deputy Nutz]

We have ample evidence that every other ILB on the roster is demonstrably worse than Clay Matthews at ILB, even given his deficiencies. Even with the gap jumping, he is the best run defender they have had out there.

That's like comparing donkey shit to horse shit, it's still shit.

[pbmax]

That's like comparing donkey shit to horse shit, it's still shit.

Perhaps. But the run D has improved. And Matthews isn't the first Packer ILB to fail to get to the outside on a run. Hawk was too slow or injured. Jones reacted too slowly.

Matthews shares something with Bishop, in that both tend to get sucked inside and are delayed getting outside. Matthews, however, has the speed to correct it.

Packers did miss Perry out on the edge. I would love to have another run stuffer in the middle in addition to Ryan and then play Matthews wherever Capers pleases.

[Patler]

Packers did miss Perry out on the edge. I would love to have another run stuffer in the middle in addition to Ryan and then play Matthews wherever Capers pleases.

That brings up another question, for the first time in a number of weeks, I don't recall hearing Datone Jones name mentioned. I listened to more than watched the game. How did he play?

[pbmax]

That brings up another question, for the first time in a number of weeks, I don't recall hearing Datone Jones name mentioned. I listened to more than watched the game. How did he play?

Saw very little of him. He was close a couple of times but that was it. Maybe two flushes that I saw?

They ran several of an actual delayed LB blitz with Matthews up the gut through the Guard gap, where the D lineman tried to pull the O line toward the outside. Jones did get snaps at OLB and its possible he or Neal were partially responsible for the big runs wide.

[Smidgeon]

That brings up another question, for the first time in a number of weeks, I don't recall hearing Datone Jones name mentioned. I listened to more than watched the game. How did he play?

Didn't he have a batted ball or something? I remember him mentioned once.

[red]

That brings up another question, for the first time in a number of weeks, I don't recall hearing Datone Jones name mentioned. I listened to more than watched the game. How did he play?

or mike neal

is he even still on the team?

[smuggler]

Putting those long runs on HaHa would not be a fair assessment of those plays.

The Cowpokes have the best oline in the league, that's why Daniels and Datone had quiet games.

[gbgary]

he's good now and is only going to get better at ilb. how many games at ilb has he had...20?

[mraynrand]

Putting those long runs on HaHa would not be a fair assessment of those plays.

The Cowpokes have the best oline in the league, that's why Daniels and Datone had quiet games.

at least one - the one PB mentioned. That was pretty bad by HCD.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Jake Ryan looked worse than AJ Hawk yesterday.

I thought so too. It's not that he was blocked, he seemed to wait for plays to come to him, and by the time he reacted the runner made a cut and was passing him by.

[red]

yeah, its not looking great for ryan, and its sad that we suck so bad at ILB that we have to waste clay there

thats all on TT

[Smidgeon]

or mike neal

is he even still on the team?

Yep. He was mentioned too. He was jawing with La'el Collins after Elliot's sack.

[Smidgeon]

Putting those long runs on HaHa would not be a fair assessment of those plays.

The Cowpokes have the best oline in the league, that's why Daniels and Datone had quiet games.

Which run was it where HHCD got flattened by an offensive lineman block but still popped up, ran down the runner, and made the tackle? Reminded me of a play before Nick Collins broke out where he chased a guy down after everyone else had given up/were too slow. HHCD was blocked to the ground and still saved the TD.

[pbmax]

Which run was it where HHCD got flattened by an offensive lineman block but still popped up, ran down the runner, and made the tackle? Reminded me of a play before Nick Collins broke out where he chased a guy down after everyone else had given up/were too slow. HHCD was blocked to the ground and still saved the TD.

That was the big run to the Dallas O left in the second half. The kid who was named as wanted for questioning (even though he was not seen as a suspect) in a crime involving his girlfriend a week before the draft, Collins, was the O lineman trucking down the sideline faster than McFadden. I think he was the one who got Collins.

[Pugger]

I don't know what happened on the long runs - I would tend to blame Clinton-Dix more than anybody else. IMO, one of the best moves they've made in recent history was moving Clay inside. It seemed to me his blitzing from the inside, combined with faking the blitz and doing a fairly good job in coverage very much outweighed the run problems. I would tend to chalk up the being out of position at times to the kind of D they were running rather than Matthews' mistakes or lack of instinct, and it seemed like there should have been safety help covering for him.

On that first long run by Dallas Ha Ha either fell down or was knocked down but Dix got up and ran down the runner before he could score. A couple of plays later Sam got the INT.

I''m glad the girls stupidly abandoned the run yesterday and tried to get Cassel to win it for them. :cow:

Edit: Well, I don't recall which play it was but Ha Ha did prevent McFadden from scoring.

[Pugger]

yeah, its not looking great for ryan, and its sad that we suck so bad at ILB that we have to waste clay there

thats all on TT

Ryan is a rookie so I'm gonna give him a pass. Lets see how he plays going forward.

[Deputy Nutz]

Perhaps. But the run D has improved. And Matthews isn't the first Packer ILB to fail to get to the outside on a run. Hawk was too slow or injured. Jones reacted too slowly.

Matthews shares something with Bishop, in that both tend to get sucked inside and are delayed getting outside. Matthews, however, has the speed to correct it.

Packers did miss Perry out on the edge. I would love to have another run stuffer in the middle in addition to Ryan and then play Matthews wherever Capers pleases.

It is not about the speed to get to the outside, its about being able to read the offensive line and slide from backside to playside to shut down the cut back lane. It is something inside linebackers have been coached to do since grade school. It has to do with instincts but instincts that have been coached up over time. Even long time ILB struggle with it, Jake Ryan for example struggled on Sunday with it. It is the ability to recognize the play through the chaos in the middle.

My point is that when you run a 3-4 defense you need viable linebackers at each position, thats why you run the defense to get 4 good linebackers on the field. The middle men need to occupy the box from tackle to tackle, not run around from sideline to sideline. Historically Dom has always had big boned pluggers at inside linebackers, just not in Green Bay which has been an issue in Green Bay. Clay is a perfect outside linebacker, and has no business playing inside. Mass in the middle, and speed on the outside. You need linebackers in the middle that can take on blocks and hold their ground and scrape to the gap.

[Deputy Nutz]

I guess my point is that if you want to get the most bang for your buck with Mathews you need to play him at outside and sprinkle him inside from time to time. I respect the fact that he has made the move without complaining but I would imagine it has to be frustrating for him. This season the Packers have to keep him in the middle but if the front office doesn't address the position this off season so that Clay can go back to the outside than the Packers are making a terrible mistake.

[Pugger]

ILB has been a weakness for a while now so TT better address that position along with TE in the next draft. Clay's talents are being squandered in the middle.

[pbmax]

I don't see size versus speed in the box as the issue as much as wrong gap choice. I agree that speed to the outside might be secondary for an ILB in base normally, but with the Packer defense as currently constituted they need his support wide. Often from the back side. In the nickel and dime you have to be able to cover ground. There just aren't enough players getting to the ball at times.

I am not sure I saw a cut back problem Sunday. Two big plays were wide runs (the left looked off tackle, the right looked like it might have been wide). The run up the middle Mathews guessed wrong (he was play side). That is not to say he has ILB instincts. Half of the plays he makes, he makes by correcting his first move mistake (like one of his sacks) with a second effort. So his gift in the middle is size and quickness and motor, not instincts.

I don't have a good feel for Ryan yet, except that he finds the ball in the run game better than Palmer. He seems lost in coverages of bunched WR.

I agree that normally the money is better spent on pass rush, in Matthews case, from the outside. And the Packer pass rush has disappeared at times. But given the struggles of last year, the defense is better with him in the middle right now. Possibly not how you want to spend the money in the future, but they need another ILB then.

[mraynrand]

I don't have a good feel for Ryan yet, except that he finds the ball in the run game better than Palmer. He seems lost in coverages of bunched WR.

I don't understand this. If Ryan has responsibilities on bunched WRs that seems like a defensive scheme fail, right off the bat.

[pbmax]

I don't understand this. If Ryan has responsibilities on bunched WRs that seems like a defensive scheme fail, right off the bat.

Should have said bunched receivers. Might have been 1 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB. He, Matthews and a DB were the coverage options. The inside guy snaked straight through to the end zone for a TD. Bears game I want to say.

[Cheesehead Craig]

ILB has been a weakness for a while now so TT better address that position along with TE in the next draft. Clay's talents are being squandered in the middle.

I don't know if there's a whole lot at ILB that would be available this next draft. There only seems to be one, maybe 2 ILB of note from what I can see so far. It's almost where you have to get lucky and find a player that blossoms in the pro level.

[mraynrand]

Should have said bunched receivers. Might have been 1 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB. He, Matthews and a DB were the coverage options. The inside guy snaked straight through to the end zone for a TD. Bears game I want to say.

got it. I know the play you're talking about - and the whole defensive backfield was confused before that snap. Fair to say that if you have a rook out there, the vets should be helping him line up and not be running around like chickens sans heads, no? Yes, I am making excuses.

[pbmax]

got it. I know the play you're talking about - and the whole defensive backfield was confused before that snap. Fair to say that if you have a rook out there, the vets should be helping him line up and not be running around like chickens sans heads, no? Yes, I am making excuses.

I thought the same thing but there was another instance versus the Cowboys that lead to a completion near the end zone (no TD) where he was asking around for help then seemed to retreat too deep.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I agree with Nutz. TT was caught short by an injury to a key player at a weak position to start: Barrington. It's like when Jordy got hurt. You've got weak backups to start with. Whent he good guy gets hurt you're really screwed. I wonder if Jeff Luc is still available. They need a guy like that.

[mraynrand]

I thought the same thing but there was another instance versus the Cowboys that lead to a completion near the end zone (no TD) where he was asking around for help then seemed to retreat too deep.

interesting. I'll look for it. But safe to say Ryan is out of his depth (pun intended).

[Maxie the Taxi]

Jeff Luc is a free agent. Invite him in for a tryout. He's was born an ILB and he's a damn, made-to-order Fuckdoggle.

http://thumb.usatodaysportsimages.com/image/thumb/650-510nw/8138007.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eepWXJywEOs

[mraynrand]

nm

[RashanGary]

Clay has been an impact player all year long. I don't doubt that there are more instinctive players, but he's as tough as they come. I think any team in the league, if they had the choice to start clay at ilb and that's the only spot they could play him, they'd take him and start him. This seems like exaggeration to me.

[RashanGary]

Probably the more accurate, but less attention grabbing thread starter would be, "I see clay making more mistakes from the ilb position."

[Patler]

That brings up another question, for the first time in a number of weeks, I don't recall hearing Datone Jones name mentioned. I listened to more than watched the game. How did he play?Saw very little of him. He was close a couple of times but that was it. Maybe two flushes that I saw?

They ran several of an actual delayed LB blitz with Matthews up the gut through the Guard gap, where the D lineman tried to pull the O line toward the outside. Jones did get snaps at OLB and its possible he or Neal were partially responsible for the big runs wide.Didn't he have a batted ball or something? I remember him mentioned once.


Apparently Jones did OK, per McGinn's grading article anyway. He has him for:

- 31 plays, including 17 at DE
- 2 pressures
- 1 batted ball.

[Fritz]

Are they grooming him to take over for Peppers next year?

[Deputy Nutz]

2nd week in a row Mathews did not record a single tackle. It is obvious that Ryan is over his head against a team like Arizona but at least he was in position to miss tackles.

[pbmax]

Are they grooming him to take over for Peppers next year?

They are just trying to get pass rush pressure this year.

[Patler]

2nd week in a row Mathews did not record a single tackle.

I was surprised to read that last week, shocked to see it happen two weeks in a row. I'm not sure how that is even possible for a middle linebacker.

[Rutnstrut]

I've always thought Clay was over rated regardless of where he is on the field.

[Rutnstrut]

Are they grooming him to take over for Peppers next year?

If they are he will have to learn how to lean against lineman and take plays off.

[pbmax]

I was surprised to read that last week, shocked to see it happen two weeks in a row. I'm not sure how that is even possible for a middle linebacker.

Its easier, though still notable, when you spend half the game rushing the passer and not getting home.

[Deputy Nutz]

Its easier, though still notable, when you spend half the game rushing the passer and not getting home.

True, but he didn't do a thing from the edge either. He is not using a whole lot of technique off the edge. It is the same move over and over again. He drops level takes a step to the outside and plunges straight into the linemen.

[pbmax]

True, but he didn't do a thing from the edge either. He is not using a whole lot of technique off the edge. It is the same move over and over again. He drops level takes a step to the outside and plunges straight into the linemen.

Yeah, that is the base level technique in Capers pass rush front. And that is a result of splitting his time. He doesn't get much technique work outside and he doesn't spend much time on stunts.

There were using him to dive in toward the Guard on a Twist (allow Peppers or Neal to loop around the collapsing tackle), but I did not see that one versus the Cardinals.

[mraynrand]

It sure looked like they were running everything away from him. Who the hell else are the Cardinals game planning for?

[Patler]

It sure looked like they were running everything away from him. Who the hell else are the Cardinals game planning for?

Either that, or he is patterning his play after Charles Woodson and simply running away from ball carriers. :)

[mraynrand]

Either that, or he is patterning his play after Charles Woodson and simply running away from ball carriers. :)

Hee hee. Chucky is more crafty he just tackles by grabbing the uniform or directing out of bounds. Very smart player.

[Patler]

Hee hee. Chucky is more crafty he just tackles by grabbing the uniform or directing out of bounds. Very smart player.

Matthews should study Woodson more closely, then. Needs to learn how to avoid tackling by making tackles.

[Patler]

Seriously, though; how does a middle linebacker go two complete games without a single tackle or half tackle? How does any linebacker who plays the entire game go two consecutive games without a tackle? Is he npt pursuing at all?

[mraynrand]

Matthews should study Woodson more closely, then. Needs to learn how to avoid tackling by making tackles.

I don't think Matthews is protecting himself from getting hit and hurt like Woodson was. Woodson wasn't avoiding tackles, he was avoiding hits

[mraynrand]

Seriously, though; how does a middle linebacker go two complete games without a single tackle or half tackle? How does any linebacker who plays the entire game go two consecutive games without a tackle? Is he npt pursuing at all?

I watched him a little bit. He takes himself out of plays. Hits holes but doesn't get through and gets caught on blocks all the time. He's jogging in pursuit a lot. Not a big motor there. he looks bad.

[pbmax]

Also

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 29m29 minutes ago
Clay's lack of tackles past two games: dropped more into coverage yesterday.