Strange Season, Weird JuJu

[Fritz]

I found it really interesting to read the post-game comments yesterday from both coaches and players.

On the negative side, which is the easier one to see and believe, there's some really weird dysfunction going on with Rodgers and McCarthy and maybe Rodgers and others. I read in the post-game transcript with Michael Cohen that once again Rodgers on the field is doing that eye-rolling, "what-the-fudge" shoulder shrugging - all that negative body language that suggests frustration - not so much with his own performance but with that of players like Janis, Dick-Rod, and Adams, and with MM, too.

The offense really seems to have no identity. One week Eddie Lacy looks like Marshawn Lynch; the next week he looks like Torrance Marshall's girlfriend. Fans clamor for Janis; he gets a pass for a TD - and drops it. Davante Adams probably can't even hold onto his penis right now. I wouldn't want to be standing at the urinal next to his. The offensive line looks like a damn M.A.S.H. unit. Nobody can figure out why Quarless isn't activated (Cohen said he looked good in practice) and Montgomery put on the shelf as he tries to practice once a week and then goes on the shelf.

James Starks is turning into a fumbling machine. Aaron Rodgers is throwing picks. James Jones is a nice guy who can't get open very well any more. Cobb, we have learned, is a great #2 receiver. Etc, etc.

Yet, strangely, this might be the crucible that forges the gutty kind of team necessary to get through the grind of the playoffs. This certainly isn't 2011, when the offense cruised through the season, only to be found lacking in the playoffs. It's interesting to read the post-game quotes from the players not named Aaron Rodgers. There was a lot of talk about this being a tough team, this being a complete team, the defense as young and improving, and the ST as tough and settled. And there's MM's weird comment - they're right where he wants to be? I assume he meant as far as their record, but did he mean that this team is being tested and toughened for the playoffs?

The defense is better than past editions. There's some depth on the D-line, certainly at corner, and Clay Matthews has shored up the inside again until, we hope, Jake Ryan can learn how to play. The ST is better just because Slocum isn't coaching them any more, and Jeff Janis, for all his shortcomings as a receiver, is becoming a ST force.

So what is the future of this team? Is it a dysfunctional team that never did get past last year's loss? Is it just a dysfunctional offense, period, with nothing to do with last year? Have MM and A-Rod just been working together for too long?

Or is this the kind of teeth-clenching, gut-wrenching regular season that gets a team in that "fuggit, we're going to fight like hell" mindset that so many of us Packer fans in years past (especially in 2011) yearned for? The kind that won't allow them to be stopped as they get overlooked in the playoffs, like the Giants did in their SB-winning years?

It's hard to be optimistic. I tend to see this team as not only not getting a first-round bye - it's just not that kind of team to get an easy road - but as getting bounced early. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. After all, in 2010 this team's offense liked like shit against the Bears at the end of the season. I think the Packers won something like 10-6 to get into the playoffs. Not an offensive maching.

What think you?

[Joemailman]

This team is the anti-2011 team. That team had maybe the best group of receivers I've ever seen, but couldn't stop anybody unless they came up with an INT. This team is a very good overall team with a weak group of receivers. As a result, teams can scheme any way they want to on defense without worrying about getting beat deep. I think that's why the Packers seem so inconsistent. If teams want to load up the box to stop Lacy, it's not that risky.

It doesn't seem like the Packers are good enough to make a Super Bowl run. Yet, this team is 3-2 against teams that will likely be in the playoffs. It's not that they're just beating up on the weak sisters of the NFL. The Packers had a 3 week stretch recently where they lost at home to the Lions, soundly beat the Vikings in Minnesota, and lost at home to the Bears. They really can beat anybody or lose to anybody.

[TravisWilliams23]

From Rodgers comments, I get the feeling he wants more of Abbrederis and less of Adams. Maybe in practice he gets to see Q running routes better than RRod and come game time there's no Q. Perhaps MM thinks Arod is changing the play too much and has put some control over when he can call his own play. We just don't know but you can tell from his post game interview he's pissed at something. I sure hope he looks in the mirror when he evaluates what went wrong because he's certainly contributed to some of the offenses woes.

That being said, MM is correct when saying they have 10 wins and are in, plus how close they were in 3 of the losses. They're heading into game 15 and still having troubles moving the ball at times. The D hasn't been getting much pressure on the quarterback and has had it's good and bad moments as well.

It's been frustrating watching this group all year. I guess we've been spoiled with some of those well-oiled offenses they've put out on the field before and
it's so damn hard to see this years version struggle so much but by December you expect to see improvement and it's just not there.

If a teams identity is revealed in December, I haven't a clue as to what it is. They really need to win the division to get at least one game at Lambeau. They'll need that if the opponent is either Minny or Seattle. I'm always hoping the Green Bay Packers we all want shows up on Sunday but it's been a season of frustration so far BUT they've won 10 and are in. So we live with that and hope the next game is THE one where it all comes together.

[Cheesehead Craig]

This is the most unimpressive and infuriating 10-win Packer team I've seen in quite a while. In the past it was that they didn't have enough defense or their running game was subpar. But there was always the beyond elite passing game that carried the day.

That elite passing game is now above average at best, the running game is still subpar. The defense is improved and that's what's keeping this team afloat right now but that units history makes that an uncomfortable feeling to say the least.

This must be what the majority of the NFL feels like, just hoping that your team doesn't pee down their legs and finds some way to hold on to win.

[Patler]

I was thinking about starting a similar thread after reading the same player and coach comments. Often, people talk about the team not being very good, then discuss only the shortcomings on offense.

In fact, the quality of the team is the combined impact of performances on offense, defense and special teams. We have seen for years that teams having one of the best offenses with mediocre (or worse) defenses and awful special teams don't go very far. This year's version might have a better balance. As of today, they are #5 in points allowed, #9 in points scored and #8 in net points. As ugly as it has been, they are 10-4 and only 4 teams have better records, two in each conference.

It is a difficult team to evaluate, but they have shown some tenacity, even giving themselves chances to salvage games in which they were awful on offense. Seattle didn't care that they were outplayed most of the NFCCG last year, they only cared that they won. At this point of the season I don't care what the offense looks like, I care only about the result.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think it was set in motion at the end of last year's loss to Seattle that the 2015 season was Super Bowl or bust. Well this season looks like a bust. Fans aren't happy their expectations are currently not being met with the play on the field.

[Patler]

I think it was set in motion at the end of last year's loss to Seattle that the 2015 season was Super Bowl or bust. Well this season looks like a bust. Fans aren't happy their expectations are currently not being met with the play on the field.

But isn't it mainly just the offense that isn't meeting expectations?

I think it is premature to categorize this season as a bust. Too many sixth seeded teams have gotten to the Super Bowl to make that conclusion. Coaches like to say that by the latter part of the season a team is what its record is. This Packer team is 10-4. That's not a bad team. It may have a mediocre offense, but a team with the third-best record in its conference after 14 games certainly has a chance to make a playoff run. It might not be one of the favorites going into the playoffs, but many Super Bowl champions have not been favorites at the start of playoffs, including the Packers in 2010.

[Fritz]

The old saw is that winning cures everything, but that does not seem to be the case with this team or the fan base. They won yesterday, but everybody's pretty disgruntled, including the starting QB.

It's really weird. This team is 10 - 4, and the two achilles' heels, the defense and ST, are better this year. But nobody's really happy.

I wonder if the players sense this could be a special team - a couple have referenced the tough-it-out, never-say-die attitude of the team - yet there's Rodgers, hacked off and silent, and MM getting bristly.

Maybe they're special because they're forging a tough identity, or maybe they're special because they have a former MVP QB and the same team as last year, basically, yet they still can't put it together. I just don't know.

[Patler]

Losing to the Bears makes it a tough season for a lot of fans. Losing at Lambeau once is bad, twice is unspeakable. The impact of combining those in the same season might not be cleansed even with a Super Bowl win by this team. For some, it will simply be a fluke if they do.

[Deputy Nutz]

Patter most of those teams that weren't picked to win the super bowl or were not one of the first two seeds in the playoffs had momentum going into the playoffs. This team doesn't seem to have that momentum. The offense is under performing compared to years past. Rodgers doesn't seem to have that magical ability to make his receivers better than what they are. I don't trust this defense against a high powered offense like Arizona. Could the Packers stop the Seahawks at Lambeau? Seattle has a tremendous amount of Momentum right now and is going to be a tough draw for any team in the playoffs.

[Patler]

Patter most of those teams that weren't picked to win the super bowl or were not one of the first two seeds in the playoffs had momentum going into the playoffs.

Didn't someone dispel that notion in another thread a week ago or so by posting the late season records for several of those teams?

In 2010, the Packers went L, W, L, L, W, W. in their last six games. With two games to go in the season, did they have any momentum, having lost their last two, and three of their last four? Any momentum they had came from their last two games, nothing more. How much faith did we have when they were 8-6 to even make the playoffs, let alone go more than one-and-done?

Ugly or not, this team has a 3 game winning streak, and has won 4 of its last 5.

[mraynrand]

It's the combo of the O-line injuries and WR/Lacy dysfunction, Rodger's inaccuracies and temper and Stubby's play calling Stubbiness. It makes you think there are too many variables that all have to line up for a playoff run to a Championship. If they do line up, they can win with this, but the likelihood is not high.

So does Stubby show everything next week in a desperate attempt to maybe capture that #2 seed (require win out and Seattle beat AZ), or does he start resting guys now, pull the entire starting O-line and play Hundley in a desperate hope to have everyone healthy when it matters? (the two extremes).

I think that Stubby plays all out, still trying to find that magic recipe on offense.

Will be very interesting to see what kind of leader Rodgers will be down the stretch. His comments about Abracadabra really show how disgusted he is with and how much he attributes the teams' woes to the poor WR play.

[mraynrand]

Losing to the Bears makes it a tough season for a lot of fans.

Yep, that was the silver tuna. The chance to even it all up and they pissed it away.

[Bossman641]

I'd love if the offense came together and this team won the SB. The story writes itself....overcame injuries, MM taking back play-calling spurs the offense, team learns to rely on D and ST (the weak links of the past), turn back Seattle and wipe last year's NFCCG from memories. I just don't see it happening though. There are not enough difference makers on offense. Rodgers is having a subpar year for him and may or may not have a fracturing relationship with MM. Lacy is way too inconsistent and Cobb can't seem to get more than 5-6 catches a game for 45-60 yards. I really think the only chance the offense has is for Montgomery to come back and Abby to pull a 2010 James Starks routine.

It's been a strange season indeed.

[Deputy Nutz]

when you lose to teams at home that you should beat easily it doesn't spell out good things. Losing against the Bears, and the Lions at home says a lot about this team, Winning on a miracle against the Lion, these things should tell you about the makeup of this roster. Getting their asses kicked after a bye week to Denver should also tell you something. You learn more about the losses than the wins.

2010 was a magic carpet ride, they needed to win their last two, they won them that is what gave them the momentum they needed. I said nothing about how many games in a row they needed to win. It is winning games when your back is against the wall, put up or shut up time.

This team has already made the playoffs, which is a good thing. They are now playing for a Division championship and a higher seed in the playoffs.

Tell me this, who on offense is going to step their game up to take this team to the next level? Why haven't they done this already? Rodgers is unhappy what is going to change this going into the playoffs? The receiving corps is disorganized and the routes are terrible, what is going to fix this problem? Eddie Lacy can't getting any consistency and the offensive line is playing on a total of 9 good legs, how is this going to get fixed? I see more problems with this team than I do solutions. I am not going to start throwing dirt on this team quite yet, but the hole is already been dug and they have to prove they can climb out of it and be contenders.

Next week will give spectators are real indicator if this team is ready to win in the playoffs.

[Bossman641]

It's the combo of the O-line injuries and WR/Lacy dysfunction, Rodger's inaccuracies and temper and Stubby's play calling Stubbiness. It makes you think there are too many variables that all have to line up for a playoff run to a Championship. If they do line up, they can win with this, but the likelihood is not high.

So does Stubby show everything next week in a desperate attempt to maybe capture that #2 seed (require win out and Seattle beat AZ), or does he start resting guys now, pull the entire starting O-line and play Hundley in a desperate hope to have everyone healthy when it matters? (the two extremes).

I think that Stubby plays all out, still trying to find that magic recipe on offense.

Will be very interesting to see what kind of leader Rodgers will be down the stretch. His comments about Abracadabra really show how disgusted he is with and how much he attributes the teams' woes to the poor WR play.

Can't see this ever happening. The offense needs the reps #1 and #2 it doesn't fit MM's "we'll play anyone, anywhere" and "we are nobody's underdog" mantra.

[hoosier]

All of those teams that got hot just at the right time (meaning, not the last quarter of the regular season, as so many people assume, but starting with the playoffs) had one unit or component that was capable of dominating a game. The Giants had their defensive line and the ability to unsettle the Favres and Bradys of the world. The 2010 Packers had a red-hot Rodgers combined with a very good (but not quite dominant) defense. The 2015 Packers have not shown an ability to dominate in any aspect of the game. Rodgers has shown that he's capable of getting on a roll at just the right time but when he did that he had a pretty good receiving corps. This year's receivers might be exactly what is holding this team back from being able to compete in AZ and Car.

[Deputy Nutz]

The Packers have won football games and championships with less at the receiving corps. Favre and Rodgers have made average receivers great for a long time. Something doesn't jive with me that we can sit back and blame the receiving corps for all the problems on offense. They haven't played well, their routes are suspect, but why? Why are the receivers playing like shit?
It doesn't take talent to run good routes, it takes skill and dedication to the profession. This offense is disorganized and you can blame the receivers, you can blame Rodgers, but in reality the blame falls on MM and his offensive coaches.

[mraynrand]

Can't see this ever happening. The offense needs the reps #1 and #2 it doesn't fit MM's "we'll play anyone, anywhere" and "we are nobody's underdog" mantra.

I agree. It's just a thought that occurred to me. Three weeks off for the O-line and they might be strong for the WC round. It's strangely tempting. But teams (i.e. Colts, Chiefs, Packers) can atrophy quickly, even when just resting for the Divisional round...

Battle-tested and galvanized is always better IMO and I'm certain Stubby thinks the same way.

[mraynrand]

The Packers have won football games and championships with less at the receiving corps. Favre and Rodgers have made average receivers great for a long time.

BRING BLACK ANDRAE THURMAN!!!

[denverYooper]

Bakhtiari made a comment about how he felt like they were a very balanced team this year.

This team seems to be a better 2nd half team than most we've seen under M3. They're not the typical frontrunners that they have been under M3 and Rodgers in years past, where they might blow out several lesser teams and get punched in the nose vs more "physical" teams. Look at them this year: their defense is playing well and the offense has no choice but to grind.

The defense gave up some big plays but they took some back, too. They started their 2 rookie CBs on the road in a tough environment against a very good WR duo. Any day a defense can do that and come away with the W is impressive. They should get Shields back for the AZ game and he typically plays very well against top receivers when the stakes are high. The Packers seemed to have gotten thrown out of balance by Murray in the first half but came back in the second half and held the Raiders to only one good drive, the 81 yard TD drive. After that, the defense put the clamps on and closed out the game. Their pass rush started getting home with 4... Often with Peppers, CM3, and Daniels causing a lot of of the havoc, but Neal starting to take advantage of the matchups he was getting because of those 3.

Even on offense, Green Bay is a more physical team. Heck, look at Jones. Some of those penalties are frustrating, but other defenses are often playing with their hands all over the Packers WR. It seems to me that Jones lately has felt like he might as well play the same game and not complain about flags the other way. He doesn't have a lot of speed but he's getting very aggressive in going after the ball and putting DBs on notice that he will try to out-muscle them. Good for him, because he seems to play better that way. And good for the Packers, because they're going to need a guy who can battle for the ball. When they get to those games where the refs swallow the whistle on PI -- games that typically stymie the Packers -- James Jones won't give a damn. Adams could get a few pointers from 89.

[HarveyWallbangers]

So what is the future of this team?

I think it will be look a heck of a lot better with good health. I think there's a lot to look forward to. At least, for 2016. With the resigning of Daniels, I'm not worried about the upcoming FA class. The following year is when things could start to get ugly. We really had a three year window. We blew it last year. It looks like we are blowing it this year. Next year, looks like Super Bowl or bust.

[pbmax]

Part of the fan doubt, past the Home losses, is that the normal markers of a good Packers team are not there. The offense looks pedestrian at best. The passing game is terrible. Rodgers looks terrible at times (relatively speaking-half the League would take his terrible). Lacy looks like a man trying to decide if he wants to play football anymore. And Clay Matthews is playing out of position and its hard to judge his impact, because the best team measure of his impact is run Defense where is very difficult apportion credit for success. Shields is hurt, sometimes loses his focus and Peppers disappears.

I do think the Packers can get better on offense, but the disconnect between what is called or prepped for during the week and the performance on the field has to be solved. They spent a half spinning their wheels with players who were not delivering. Their offense right now consists of 2nd half adjustments. Until proven otherwise, I think the new assistant coach assignments, with Alex Van Pelt leading both QB/WR in meetings and practice, have failed. Either Rodgers grew too accustomed to a greater input level (which doesn't seemed to have helped) or the coaches are trying to fit square pegs (Adams, Janis) into a round hold problem (Magic).

Its like watching a Bear's team play. No wonder people in Chicago don't even know which end is up during football season. :lol:

[denverYooper]

Part of the fan doubt, past the Home losses, is that the normal markers of a good Packers team are not there. The offense looks pedestrian at best. The passing game is terrible. Rodgers looks terrible at times (relatively speaking-half the League would take his terrible). Lacy looks like a man trying to decide if he wants to play football anymore. And Clay Matthews is playing out of position and its hard to judge his impact, because the best team measure of his impact is run Defense where is very difficult apportion credit for success. Shields is hurt, sometimes loses his focus and Peppers disappears.

I do think the Packers can get better on offense, but the disconnect between what is called or prepped for during the week and the performance on the field has to be solved. They spent a half spinning their wheels with players who were not delivering. Their offense right now consists of 2nd half adjustments. Until proven otherwise, I think the new assistant coach assignments, with Alex Van Pelt leading both QB/WR in meetings and practice, have failed. Either Rodgers grew too accustomed to a greater input level (which doesn't seemed to have helped) or the coaches are trying to fit square pegs (Adams, Janis) into a round hold problem (Magic).

Its like watching a Bear's team play. No wonder people in Chicago don't even know which end is up during football season. :lol:

I agree with this. The team is totally different from what we are used to. They're winning, but winning ugly with small ball and stretches of shockingly competent defense (mixed in with some puzzling gaffes).

And it's hard to really trust the defense unless or until they can shut down some great teams. Though they've been fairly decent in that regard since the Pats game last year.

[mraynrand]

Its like watching a Bear's team play. No wonder people in Chicago don't even know which end is up during football season. :lol:

In the first half it was like they didn't realize the Raiders were stacked up to stop the run and that on offense the Raiders were gonna throw the ball. Just because Cooper was blanked on film the week before, doesn't mean he isn't gonna explode versus one high safety, especially against a rook. That adjustment too way too long.

[pbmax]

In the first half it was like they didn't realize the Raiders were stacked up to stop the run and that on offense the Raiders were gonna throw the ball. Just because Cooper was blanked on film the week before, doesn't mean he isn't gonna explode versus one high safety, especially against a rook. That adjustment too way too long.

Their hurry up hurt them too. They must have adjusted personnel or lineup because the Raiders didn't go back to it.

For the Packer O, I think that run game in the first half was part of what was pissing Rodgers off.

[Maxie the Taxi]

This is a great thread. Thanks, Fritz. Everybody gets a chance to rant. And the comments have been really good and insightful.

Mine might be the exception...

I'm watching the game, scowling in my seat and my wife (who's not an intense fan) says: "What's wrong?" I said: "They're playing like shit! They're gonna lose!" And she comes back: "Don't say that! Be positive! They're going to win!" I just stared at her. I HATE that false confidence. I'm not a Polyanna. I see what I see and it's not good. Winning doesn't make the reality of playing like shit go away. Or at least it shouldn't.

I'm not privy to what goes on in the locker room behind closed doors. I only see what a fan sees, and what I saw yesterday was some really strange behavior I'm not used to seeing from Stubby-coached teams, strange behavior that is, sadly, becoming the norm for this year's team:

...We're on the Raider one or two yard line. We're all calling for Lacy to pound it in there. Even Stubby gets the message. Arod gets the ball to Lacy, but Lacy is the only one who doesn't get the message. He bounces it outside, loses a bunch of yards and we settle for a field goal.

...We're at midfield or so. It's 4th and 2. Arod is in the shotgun trying to draw the Raiders offside, which ain't gonna happen. The clock winds down to a second or two and Arod calls time out. I can't believe what I'm seeing! After the TO, Masthay proceeds to punt the ball into the end zone!

...It's toward the end of the game. All we have to do is run the ball and the clock. Arod gets the ball and makes an ill-advised throw into double coverage. Janis, the intended target, stands there watching the two defenders fight for the ball. Arod rolls his eyes for the cameras.

What the hell? What do episodes like this mean? Is it just a matter of keeping your head in the game? Of trying harder? Or what? And why do we see these kind of things game after game when Stubby says week after week they're going to be "fixed?"

This team is not stacked with talent, but it does have talent enough to compete IF everybody does their job and does it well. That's not happening now. We're not playing as a team.

I don't know what message Stubby is giving this team in private, but if it's the same message he's giving us in public -- the same message my wife gave to me -- our head coach is in denial and the players can see right through it, just as I saw through my wife's comments.

Probably the strangest thing I saw yesterday was the funky celebration by the defense over Micah Hyde's interception. Really? Was it just guys "having fun?" Or was it an indication of something else going on? Who was it that said "When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before." This team acts like it's never been there before and doesn't believe it can get there.

And Stubby's denial isn't helping.

I'll make one wild speculation: Maybe Stubby is on his way to losing the locker room.

[Joemailman]

And Stubby's denial isn't helping.

I'll make one wild speculation: Maybe Stubby is on his way to losing the locker room.

It's not denial. His team has won 10 games and feels his team isn't getting any respect for that. I think he's a little pissed off. He certainly doesn't seem to be losing the locker room. If that were happening, this team wouldn't have bounced back from home losses to the Lions and the Bears with road wins in the division.

I kind of like what Ketchman said today:


The Packers defense was sensational, and the Packers’ passing attack came to life on that 19-play, 92-yard drive. That drive is what the Packers’ passing attack is going to have to be to win in the postseason, in my opinion. It’s going to have to be drive-sustaining, because the big play is missing from the Packers’ passing attack and opponents are going to continue to load up against the run. I like what I saw in that drive, especially because it was executed at crunch time. Remember this about me: I’m a defensive guy. I’m not a silver-spoon offensive guy. The 2011 Packers weren’t my kind of team. I don’t have a good feel for that kind of football. I like the way this team plays. It’s developing a hard outer shell. I like that.

Read more: http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-ask-vic/article-1/Get-ready-for-the-game-of-the-year/e15389dc-54f8-4fcc-81ee-d159c2b0bc08#ixzz3uykYFpAO

[Bossman641]

It's fine to be a drive-sustaining offense but in order to do so you have to be good on third down and especially on third and short. Currently we are awful at both.

Think I read something the other day that apart from the Hail Mary there has not been a pass play longer than 36 yards for like 5-6 games.

[pbmax]

You know its a weird season when we are quoting Vic Ketchup approvingly.

Oy!

[Fritz]

This is a great thread. Thanks, Fritz. Everybody gets a chance to rant. And the comments have been really good and insightful.

Mine might be the exception...

I'm watching the game, scowling in my seat and my wife (who's not an intense fan) says: "What's wrong?" I said: "They're playing like shit! They're gonna lose!" And she comes back: "Don't say that! Be positive! They're going to win!" I just stared at her. I HATE that false confidence. I'm not a Polyanna. I see what I see and it's not good. Winning doesn't make the reality of playing like shit go away. Or at least it shouldn't.

I'm not privy to what goes on in the locker room behind closed doors. I only see what a fan sees, and what I saw yesterday was some really strange behavior I'm not used to seeing from Stubby-coached teams, strange behavior that is, sadly, becoming the norm for this year's team:

...We're on the Raider one or two yard line. We're all calling for Lacy to pound it in there. Even Stubby gets the message. Arod gets the ball to Lacy, but Lacy is the only one who doesn't get the message. He bounces it outside, loses a bunch of yards and we settle for a field goal.

...We're at midfield or so. It's 4th and 2. Arod is in the shotgun trying to draw the Raiders offside, which ain't gonna happen. The clock winds down to a second or two and Arod calls time out. I can't believe what I'm seeing! After the TO, Masthay proceeds to punt the ball into the end zone!

...It's toward the end of the game. All we have to do is run the ball and the clock. Arod gets the ball and makes an ill-advised throw into double coverage. Janis, the intended target, stands there watching the two defenders fight for the ball. Arod rolls his eyes for the cameras.

What the hell? What do episodes like this mean? Is it just a matter of keeping your head in the game? Of trying harder? Or what? And why do we see these kind of things game after game when Stubby says week after week they're going to be "fixed?"

This team is not stacked with talent, but it does have talent enough to compete IF everybody does their job and does it well. That's not happening now. We're not playing as a team.

I don't know what message Stubby is giving this team in private, but if it's the same message he's giving us in public -- the same message my wife gave to me -- our head coach is in denial and the players can see right through it, just as I saw through my wife's comments.

Probably the strangest thing I saw yesterday was the funky celebration by the defense over Micah Hyde's interception. Really? Was it just guys "having fun?" Or was it an indication of something else going on? Who was it that said "When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before." This team acts like it's never been there before and doesn't believe it can get there.

And Stubby's denial isn't helping.

I'll make one wild speculation: Maybe Stubby is on his way to losing the locker room.


Thanks, Maxie. My wife is the exact same way, and it drives me nuts. She says things like "they're ahead; they'll win. Why are you so negative when you watch?"

Then last year, with five minutes left in Seattle and Morgan Burnett made the interception, I started dancing around. My wife went into her "See, I told you they would win!" When I tried to warn her that it wasn't over, though it looked good, she told me, again, how negative I was.

So I thought she learned after last year, but sadly, with the Packers up by seven and the Radiers with the ball, she told me it was over and I was being too negative. Luckily in that case she was right.

My biggest concern is Arod. The rest of the team, at least the offensive side, seems to think this is a good, tough, team, but Arod is scowling and harumphing like Scrooge before his ghosts visited him. Suck it up, dude. Bart Starr would never have done that crap.

Be a leader. How about telling everyone you're going to put the team on your shoulders, or that you haven't done enough? Or go up to the next guy who drops one and put an arm around his shoulder, or have your girlfriend give some head to the receiver who's lost the most confidence ("Okay guys, which one of you besides Davante has lost his confidence?" Entire room, hands shoot up. One guy says "Does my wife have to know if I've lost my confidence?")

[Rutnstrut]

There is definitely one thing Rodgers could learn from Favre. Favre NEVER gave up, he always thought they could win and he owned his mistakes. Rodgers reminds me of some teens when they get caught doing something wrong. It's always someone else's fault, and he's quick to throw people under the bus.

[mraynrand]

One guy says "Does my wife have to know if I've lost my confidence?"

that's what Viagra is for

[ThunderDan]

There is definitely one thing Rodgers could learn from Favre. Favre NEVER gave up, he always thought they could win and he owned his mistakes. Rodgers reminds me of some teens when they get caught doing something wrong. It's always someone else's fault, and he's quick to throw people under the bus.

You most be forgetting the Favre of the 336 routes run wrong by his WRs.

[beveaux1]

I was thinking about starting a similar thread after reading the same player and coach comments. Often, people talk about the team not being very good, then discuss only the shortcomings on offense.

In fact, the quality of the team is the combined impact of performances on offense, defense and special teams. We have seen for years that teams having one of the best offenses with mediocre (or worse) defenses and awful special teams don't go very far. This year's version might have a better balance. As of today, they are #5 in points allowed, #9 in points scored and #8 in net points. As ugly as it has been, they are 10-4 and only 4 teams have better records, two in each conference.

It is a difficult team to evaluate, but they have shown some tenacity, even giving themselves chances to salvage games in which they were awful on offense. Seattle didn't care that they were outplayed most of the NFCCG last year, they only cared that they won. At this point of the season I don't care what the offense looks like, I care only about the result.

Teams that win with defense and special teams never get the respect of analysts or fans. I think watching the golden offense that this team has had for the past 6 years has made this year's team look mediocre or even poor by comparison. The record says otherwise. I don't expect that we'll develop into an offensive juggernaut. I do expect that if we can keep the injury bug at bay, we'll be close at the end against most anybody. We play a poor half, then like PB says, we adjust, something I had not seen in previous years. They're not necessarily as fun to watch, because we're not scoring on three plays, and we are grinding for most of the game, but we're still winning. Just winning ugly. I'll take that if it carries us deep into the playoffs.

[Rutnstrut]

I think they very well could go deep in the playoffs IF. Stubby gets over his anti-run thinking and I don't mean by sticking Cobb in the backfield.

[Patler]

I still think there is a chance for the offense to be significantly better than it has been, even if it doesn't approach the level of the past few years.

It all rests with AR. I'm not putting the sole blame on him, but he has been the most consistent element of the team since he became the starter. In fact, I think each year he improved just a little in some aspect from the previous year, until this year. He is having an off year (for him) both in accuracy and in seeing the field. Yesterday he missed Jones badly twice when Jones WAS open. He failed to see Cobb wide open on one play, but luckily got PI when he threw late. The throw to Janis at the goal marker in the first half wasn't good. With Janis' jumping ability, a jump ball might have favored him, but the pass was well overthrown. I know, there were plenty of drops and half-hearted efforts by receivers, but the one thing that could quickly make the offense better is if Rodgers finds his stroke. Every game there has been more than typical numbers of off target throws from Rodgers. Even if he gets back on target, this years WRs likely will still drop a bunch of them, but they will catch some, too.

Was the interception thrown by Rodgers just frustration on his part?

[mraynrand]

^^^ One of the keys to that 2010 run was Rodgers getting very hot and playing fearlessly. He has to find a way to rise above O-line injuries and WR inconsistencies. Maybe Q and Abra will be a key in the run.

[Joemailman]

^^^ One of the keys to that 2010 run was Rodgers getting very hot and playing fearlessly. He has to find a way to rise above O-line injuries and WR inconsistencies. Maybe Q and Abra will be a key in the run.

I think he needs to run more. He might force teams to play more zone on the back end if he catches them running downfield with their backs to him by running the ball.

[Fosco33]

I think it's just hard to see the offense as average. If they were playing well - I'd see them as 12-2. And this league is mostly about offense.

The other part that makes this less hopeful is seeing how dominant Seattle and cardinals have been. I think panthers are a very good team but don't have killer punch.

I could see us losing to cards and beating minny. Then playing minny again. That'll be tough but at least at lambeau. Then we'd get cards again in divisional. So this week is a bit of a preview - like the 2009 season in a few ways.

[Deputy Nutz]

You most be forgetting the Favre of the 336 routes run wrong by his WRs.

When did Favre ever make this excuse?

[Pugger]

Thanks, Maxie. My wife is the exact same way, and it drives me nuts. She says things like "they're ahead; they'll win. Why are you so negative when you watch?"

Then last year, with five minutes left in Seattle and Morgan Burnett made the interception, I started dancing around. My wife went into her "See, I told you they would win!" When I tried to warn her that it wasn't over, though it looked good, she told me, again, how negative I was.

So I thought she learned after last year, but sadly, with the Packers up by seven and the Radiers with the ball, she told me it was over and I was being too negative. Luckily in that case she was right.

My biggest concern is Arod. The rest of the team, at least the offensive side, seems to think this is a good, tough, team, but Arod is scowling and harumphing like Scrooge before his ghosts visited him. Suck it up, dude. Bart Starr would never have done that crap.

Be a leader. How about telling everyone you're going to put the team on your shoulders, or that you haven't done enough? Or go up to the next guy who drops one and put an arm around his shoulder, or have your girlfriend give some head to the receiver who's lost the most confidence ("Okay guys, which one of you besides Davante has lost his confidence?" Entire room, hands shoot up. One guy says "Does my wife have to know if I've lost my confidence?")

This is so funny. I'm the negative one while watching the games grousing about the team's performance and my hubby keeps telling me we're gonna win even when things aren't going well. :lol:

[mraynrand]

When did Favre ever make this excuse?

Fans made it for him.

Do we yet know whether is was Schroeder or Favre to blame for that miscommunication pick 6 in the Divisional game at St. Louis in Jan 2002?

BFFFs are an interesting group. Favre could come into your dining room and drop a turd and they'd blame you for not having a toilet installed there for him.

[Bossman641]

Fans made it for him.

Do we yet know whether is was Schroeder or Favre to blame for that miscommunication pick 6 in the Divisional game at St. Louis in Jan 2002?

BFFFs are an interesting group. Favre could come into your dining room and drop a turd and they'd blame you for not having a toilet installed there for him.

He's like a kid out there!!!!

[Fritz]

He's like a kid out there!!!!


You beat me to it.

[pbmax]

Fans made it for him.

Do we yet know whether is was Schroeder or Favre to blame for that miscommunication pick 6 in the Divisional game at St. Louis in Jan 2002?

BFFFs are an interesting group. Favre could come into your dining room and drop a turd and they'd blame you for not having a toilet installed there for him.

Brett also loved the half explanation: I thought he was running a slant, but he bent it back out like a post and sometimes it just doesn't work out.*

*Int to end the 2007 Championship Game to Driver

[Deputy Nutz]

Fans made it for him.

Do we yet know whether is was Schroeder or Favre to blame for that miscommunication pick 6 in the Divisional game at St. Louis in Jan 2002?

BFFFs are an interesting group. Favre could come into your dining room and drop a turd and they'd blame you for not having a toilet installed there for him.

Your point?

[Rutnstrut]

Brett also loved the half explanation: I thought he was running a slant, but he bent it back out like a post and sometimes it just doesn't work out.*

*Int to end the 2007 Championship Game to Driver

That's right, that was the game where the defense couldn't cover a hobbled Plaxico Burress and frittered the game away.

[mraynrand]

That's right, that was the game where the defense couldn't cover a hobbled Plaxico Burress and frittered the game away.

14 rushes, 28 yards.

[Carolina_Packer]

The Packers have won football games and championships with less at the receiving corps. Favre and Rodgers have made average receivers great for a long time. Something doesn't jive with me that we can sit back and blame the receiving corps for all the problems on offense. They haven't played well, their routes are suspect, but why? Why are the receivers playing like shit?
It doesn't take talent to run good routes, it takes skill and dedication to the profession. This offense is disorganized and you can blame the receivers, you can blame Rodgers, but in reality the blame falls on MM and his offensive coaches.

Good post! Obviously it always comes down to execution. There's the whole scheme vs. personnel question. Would all of the problems magically go away if Jordy Nelson was suddenly on the roster never having been injured? Would all the other boats be raised by his presence?

I think it comes down to counter-punch. Like the Giants in the 2011 playoff game, teams came up with a way to defense Green Bay's offense. We've all been waiting for this team to counter-punch. Jordy chain reaction? Sure. Defensive scheme vs. the Packer offense? Sure. The time to make adjustments to what other teams are doing defensively is NOW! As far as I'm concerned, the playoffs start this weekend. Lay your cards and lay some wood. Oh, yeah, and catch the ball. :???:

[mraynrand]

Cold analysis in the bitter grey of dawn. This team isn't going anywhere. If fortunate they get past the WC round. Die in Divisional round at Carolina. Carolina gives TD balls to sweet little children. Lacy eats children's Luck Charms. MVP Cam will show Rodgers what it used to be like to play unafraid, taking game on shoulders and not shaking head at WR errors (like Ted Ginn dropping passes).

[Patler]

The Packers have won football games and championships with less at the receiving corps. Favre and Rodgers have made average receivers great for a long time. Something doesn't jive with me that we can sit back and blame the receiving corps for all the problems on offense. They haven't played well, their routes are suspect, but why? Why are the receivers playing like shit?
It doesn't take talent to run good routes, it takes skill and dedication to the profession. This offense is disorganized and you can blame the receivers, you can blame Rodgers, but in reality the blame falls on MM and his offensive coaches.

I raised this question a few weeks ago, have we seen Edgar Bennett hit his ceiling? He seems to have been a great position coach. RBs & WRs both seemed to excel under his coaching. Players improved. Emergency fill-ins came in and functioned well. But, has he failed this year as OC? If some of the blame falls on his shoulders, is it simply inexperience, or has he hit his ceiling?

How about Van Pelt? The idea behind a combined position group of QBs and WRs was to enhance communication and understanding. Promote common understanding and responses having more combined film reviews and meetings. The WR problems have been well-publicized, and I think AR is having a very off year performance wise both physically and mentally. Is Van Pelt failing, or is the concept bad? Has the combined group resulted in too little specific attention for each position group? The very thing that this change was supposed to improve has in fact regressed significantly. Is Van Pelt at fault? The concept? Or, is it just something that happens from time to time?

Looking back at it, when you consider that a new OL assistant was added, the overhaul of the coaching structure on offense was extensive:
- new position of Associate Head Coach/Offense
- new play caller (now reversed)
- new OC
- new WR coach
- new dynamic by combining QB and WR position groups
- new OL assistant coach

In 2014 GB lead the league in scoring at over 30 points per game. They set a team record for 1st downs and gained the fourth most total yards ever. Did MM go overboard fixing something that wasn't broken?

[ThunderDan]

14 rushes, 28 yards.

264 Yards Total Offense
Favre - 19/35 236 Yards 2TD 2INT

[Maxie the Taxi]

Cold analysis in the bitter grey of dawn. This team isn't going anywhere. If fortunate they get past the WC round. Die in Divisional round at Carolina. Carolina gives TD balls to sweet little children. Lacy eats children's Luck Charms. MVP Cam will show Rodgers what it used to be like to play unafraid, taking game on shoulders and not shaking head at WR errors (like Ted Ginn dropping passes).

+1

My bitter grey of dawn assessment of this team boils down to two words: Too slow.

And for all the guys blaming the coaching staff for this year's failures, there is this cliche: You can't coach speed.

Sunday we'll see what it's like to have team speed, on offense and defense. Even with Jimmy Graham Seattle didn't shine on offense until Tyler Lockette got involved in a big way. One guy with speed, who knows how to use it, can change an offense. Baldwin is benefiting from Lockette's speed.

When Jordy went down we lost effective WR speed. Jordy's route running, ability to fake, his sure-handedness and his experience only made his natural speed more effective. The rest of our WR's are either naturally slow or lack effective speed.

Add to this our lack of speed in the backfield (Sparkplug has some, esp. contrasted with Lacy) and our plodders at TE and there you have it.

On defense, we've got some speed in the secondary but it loses it's effectiveness because of lack of experience. Clay has natural speed but its wasted at ILB, plus he loses his speed's effectiveness for lack of experience at ILB. Same with Palmer and Thomas. Ryan does not have natural speed; never will.

[Patler]

+1

My bitter grey of dawn assessment of this team boils down to two words: Too slow.

And for all the guys blaming the coaching staff for this year's failures, there is this cliche: You can't coach speed.

Sunday we'll see what it's like to have team speed, on offense and defense. Even with Jimmy Graham Seattle didn't shine on offense until Tyler Lockette got involved in a big way. One guy with speed, who knows how to use it, can change an offense. Baldwin is benefiting from Lockette's speed.

When Jordy went down we lost effective WR speed. Jordy's route running, ability to fake, his sure-handedness and his experience only made his natural speed more effective. The rest of our WR's are either naturally slow or lack effective speed.

Add to this our lack of speed in the backfield (Sparkplug has some, esp. contrasted with Lacy) and our plodders at TE and there you have it.


All those things were true last year as well, and they finished #1 in scoring, set a franchise record for first down, etc. Except for the loss of Nelson, the personnel on that side of the ball has not changed at all. However, the coaching structure on offense changed dramatically.

It could be that we just happened to see Rodgers, Nelson, Cobb and Lacy all have their career years at the same time in 2014.

[pbmax]

14 rushes, 28 yards.

I was a fan of 0-5 on third down.

[Maxie the Taxi]

All those things were true last year as well, and they finished #1 in scoring, set a franchise record for first down, etc. Except for the loss of Nelson, the personnel on that side of the ball has not changed at all. However, the coaching structure on offense changed dramatically.

It could be that we just happened to see Rodgers, Nelson, Cobb and Lacy all have their career years at the same time in 2014.

It could be, but the loss of Nelson was pretty much my main point. To my mind his loss was catastrophic and we don't have the horses to compensate for that loss.

[Rutnstrut]

264 Yards Total Offense
Favre - 19/35 236 Yards 2TD 2INT

Favre did plenty to win in that game, Al Harris on the other hand did nothing with an INJURED Plaxico that was significantly slowed down. Burress caught 11 passes for 154 yards and if I remember right Harris also had 2 pI's. The shitty non covering or tackling defense lost that game as much if not more than Favre.

[Airin' Rodgers]

Favre did plenty to win in that game, Al Harris on the other hand did nothing with an INJURED Plaxico that was significantly slowed down. Burress caught 11 passes for 154 yards and if I remember right Harris also had 2 pI's. The shitty non covering or tackling defense lost that game as much if not more than Favre.

I agree with you on the defense, but Favre played terribly.

That was the game that McCarthy was caught saying that if his name wasn't Brett Favre he would have benched him at halftime....made a career out of being a warrior but was scared of the cold that day.

[ThunderDan]

Favre did plenty to win in that game, Al Harris on the other hand did nothing with an INJURED Plaxico that was significantly slowed down. Burress caught 11 passes for 154 yards and if I remember right Harris also had 2 pI's. The shitty non covering or tackling defense lost that game as much if not more than Favre.

Come on, take off your Favre kool-aid glasses.

Other than the 90 yard TD pass BF was 18/34 146 Yards 1 TD and 2 Ints (kind of like a few ARod games this year). He played like shit that game. He didn't want to be out in the extreme cold.

And the defense also didn't play well. But you don't have to make shit up.

In fact using your same logic, the D played well enough to win the game if BF didn't turn over the ball in OT.

And Bush should have jumped on the muffed punt.

[Rutnstrut]

I agree with you on the defense, but Favre played terribly.

That was the game that McCarthy was caught saying that if his name wasn't Brett Favre he would have benched him at halftime....made a career out of being a warrior but was scared of the cold that day.

If he still thought that way, he would have benched Rodgers a few times this season or at least strongly considered it. Who knows, maybe he has?

[Rutnstrut]

Come on, take off your Favre kool-aid glasses.

Other than the 90 yard TD pass BF was 18/34 146 Yards 1 TD and 2 Ints. He played like shit that game. He didn't want to be out in the extreme cold.

And the defense also didn't play well. But you don't have to make shit up.

In fact using your same logic, the D played well enough to win the game if BF didn't turn over the ball in OT.

Had the Giants D played as shitty as the Packers did and let one slow, injured receiver beat them. You would be talking about how great Favre played. It far from a pretty game by Favre, but it was enough to win. Had the D not had a classic GB big game defensive meltdown.

[ThunderDan]

Had the Giants D played as shitty as the Packers did and let one slow, injured receiver beat them. You would be talking about how great Favre played. It far from a pretty game by Favre, but it was enough to win. Had the D not had a classic GB big game defensive meltdown.

No, I wouldn't. Favre played like shit that day. It may have been enough to win but the D played well enough to win also.

[ThunderDan]

Just looking at the game stats from the GB - NYG playoff game.

NYG 40:01 time of possession, GB 22:34 time of possession
NYG 24 1st Downs, GB 13 1st Downs
NYG 6 for 16 on 3rd down, GB 1 for 10 on 3rd down

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008012001/2007/POST20/giants@packers#tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore

[mraynrand]

All those things were true last year as well, and they finished #1 in scoring, set a franchise record for first down, etc. Except for the loss of Nelson, the personnel on that side of the ball has not changed at all. However, the coaching structure on offense changed dramatically.

It could be that we just happened to see Rodgers, Nelson, Cobb and Lacy all have their career years at the same time in 2014.


I think the injuries all across the offense are a much bigger factor

[denverYooper]

I think he needs to run more. He might force teams to play more zone on the back end if he catches them running downfield with their backs to him by running the ball.

He will run more in the playoffs. He's been more cautious about running this year, probably because he's been injured going into the last couple of postseasons.

[Fritz]

Run, Forest, run!

Merry Christmas, Rats!!

[woodbuck27]

Losing to the Bears makes it a tough season for a lot of fans. Losing at Lambeau once is bad, twice is unspeakable. The impact of combining those in the same season might not be cleansed even with a Super Bowl win by this team. For some, it will simply be a fluke if they do.

The offense never seemed to wake up in that contest and the ahhww ...yauuning attitude of Aaron Rodgers lent to 'the choke'. I want to see more of a sense of EMERGENCY...or something FR. Rod like this: :

Let`s get this damn game into the `W column. I want to se a tougher Aaron Rodgers.

It was like the Packers didn't care enough to win that historical game. No way should the PACKERS lose that game. I felt terribly...cheated

I always get to believing my team will pull it out and this choke loss was like a punch in the guts. I was at Hooters Sports Bar in Greenfield Park, Quebec and had enjoted Bret Favreès N!
I hated the way Aaron Rodgers did his attitude thingy (that I do see). I want Aaron Rodgers to dop the Cool and Luke act and wake up and fight harder. Be more a part of the team and not the exalted leader.

Anyway we will NOT ever see Aaron Rodgers and wining the Super Bowl again under the present administration that's cursed . The Packers have CHOKE written in invisible ink on the back of their jerseys.

What are they now. Ranked in the '6 slot' for the Power Ranking. I rank KC above them. In the AFC the Bengals, Steelers, and KC Chiefs all shine brighter than Green Bay.

In the NFC...I rank Seattle as the NO. 1 Team. Wilson is simply playing as outstanding as any QB I've ever seen. He's been over the top great and the Seahawks are back . Three solid teams in the NFC all with QB's playing @ an MVP level. Carolina. Arizona and Seattle.

The thing is and me the long time Packer fan. I won`t get down hearted and the Packers. I very seldom pick against them. I hate to do so and not share proudly in any VICTORY.


GO PACKERS ! GO PACK GO !

[Fosco33]

I was at the NFCC and remember most of it fairly well. It was beyond cold - my beer would freeze by the time I got back to my seat so we had to slam them. It wasn't fun to be there. Beyond yelling - was hard to make noise. I was amazed that people were out there playing.

Recall - the Giants kicker, tynes - missed two late field goals and the pack let up big plays and huge penalties. They beat us well and the score was closer than reality.

Favre didn't play well but I don't blame him.