Is Aaron Rodgers more of the problem than we might think?

[Patler]

Each week, Cohen at JSO does an article with 12 film observations from the previous game. #11 this week was interesting:



11. The perplexing nature of the goal-line play calling continued for the Packers on Sunday, even with Mike McCarthy back on the headset. A solid drive by the offense moved the ball from its own 20-yard line to the 6-yard line of the Cardinals, where the Packers had first and goal. What followed were four consecutive passes, including two that originated from the 2-yard line after wideout Davante Adams made a 4-yard reception. Even with Eddie Lacy on the field and playing relatively well — 12 carries for 60 yards — the running game was overlooked just a few feet from the end zone. At least one of the plays, however, was a called run. Television cameras captured right guard T.J. Lang screaming at quarterback Aaron Rodgers after a fade to Adams fell incomplete on third down. Lang asked Rodgers why he threw the ball, meaning a run play was likely called in the huddle.

An offensive guard taking a two-time MVP QB to task on the field for what he did on a play? Is it time to question AR's leadership? Are the players still fully behind him? Is he falling victim to the affliction great players sometimes do, thinking they are above their team mates, their coaches and the game and are players becoming frustrated with him? An on-field reaction like that from a lineman wouldn't come from a single play, it would come from the lineman having built-up frustration with his QB.

[smuggler]

Lacy's stat line is very deceiving. He had one run of 26 yards and was otherwise ineffective.

[Patler]

Lacy's stat line is very deceiving. He had one run of 26 yards and was otherwise ineffective.

That may be true, but it really doesn't have much to do with the Lang/Rodgers confrontation reported by Cohen, which I think is the interesting thing from his observation #11.

[denverYooper]

That particular instance was a normal check to a pass from a run, and the reaction to it and Lang's comments have been blown out of proportion due to the end result.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/baranczyk%20/2015/12/28/packers-disconnect-offense-persists/77971166/


Then again, Adams and the rest of the receiving corps haven’t done much all season to earn trust. There was another glaring example Sunday, Adams’ drop in the end zone at the end of the third quarter. On third and goal from the 2, Rodgers changed the play from a run to a pass, and rightfully so. Arizona had a nine-man front with single coverage on both outside receivers. There was nowhere to run.

Rodgers put the fade throw to Adams on the money, but the ball went through Adams’ hands. In fact, Adams was late getting his hands up. He looked back for the ball in plenty of time, so it’s hard to understand how that happened.

[denverYooper]

In that same column, however, M3 makes some comments suggesting a disconnect between him and Rodgers:

“He cannot get hit like that, and we’ve got to change that,” McCarthy said. “(He) can’t hold the ball, either, and all the things that come with it. We’ve got to get (receivers) open quicker, we’ve got to beat man-to-man coverage, we’ve got to quit worrying about plays (called). We just need to focus on execution.”

That's at least the second time where he's made a comment about "worrying about playcalls" and I thought the first time was directed at Adams but I'm not so sure it's not Rodgers.

[denverYooper]

I think the bigger problem is that they have no speed. So it almost doesn't matter how many times Rodgers changes the play vs what's called.

After watching the Cardinals offense and then the Broncos-Bengals game on Monday, it struck me how many more fast options those teams had available and how much more stress that puts on the defense.

Cobb can do it sometimes, but teams usually take him out of the plan pretty easily.

A big part of Starks's success seems to be that he gets upfield so fast. I think it's a shock to opposing defenses. But he can't stop carrying the ball in the wrong arm and puts the ball on the ground too much.

Janis can't be trusted to make routine plays.

Abbredaris has flashed some ability to get open as a #3/4 but even he's been inconsistent.

Their normal starting lineup is almost all plodders and it is hard to even catch a defense off guard because they don't need to worry about recovering if they're caught out of position by a crafty playcall, a check, or what-have-you.

So maybe M3 is right. Maybe they should just line up and run the plays called and at least operate as a unit and not think about whether or not to change the play. At the very least, they won't be confused, even if they're slow.

[pbmax]

Tactically it was the correct call as Yoop's post points out. But that doesn't mean the Packers have the capability to pull it off.

And this is the difference between Rodger's offense (sort of, it probably was a base level pass-run option) and McCarthy's call.

M3 needs Rodgers to reduce the Offense's reliance on the unreliable. Problem is that the Packers haven't been a good short yardage team run or pass this year. So if Lang was upset it wasn't a run (he might have been mad he choose Adams), he and his O line buddies should look at their own film first.

[mraynrand]

Rodgers made two lazy/poor passes that I recall off the top of my head - the 3rd and short to Rodegers that was low and behind (before the fake) and the crossing to Abby that was too far in from t of him. Rodgers also had a running lane on the INT to Jones (would have been called back due to penalty anyway).

Rodgers is not sharp. Stubby is generally pissed because he thinks the plays will work if just run better. I agree. IT's not like they are gonna score 30 points at will, but they might eat clock and produce 21. Take away the 21 points off turnovers and you have a ballgame.

But realistically, nothing is gonna work with two turnstiles at tackle....

[Patler]

I don't buy the speed excuse. I agree that they lack speed, but they lacked speed last year and the offense was record setting. One guy, Nelson, doesn't convert an overall slow team to a fast team. The loss of one guy alone, who isn't the QB, doesn't convert a record setting offense to a dysfunctional group that can't get out of their own way.

This is an offense that returned essentially everyone, even the backups regularly relied on. The major changes were Abbrederis/Montgomery for Boykin (an improvement); Beckman and Ripkowski for Bostic and Taylor (inconsequential to the primary offense); Alonzo Harris/Crockett for Dujuan Harris (inconsequential); Hundley for Flynn (inconsequential); Josh Walker and the return of Barkley for Derek Sherrod (inconsequential).

There is more to the sudden downfall than just the lack of speed. I think injuries beyond Nelson's are a significant factor along with Lacy's disappearance and Adams struggles. However, I think there is still more at the root cause of what has happened. A number of Rodgers-related issues and impact of coaching reorganization are significant causes, and I can't decide which is more significant.

[Patler]

Rodgers made two lazy/poor passes that I recall off the top of my head - the 3rd and short to Rodegers that was low and behind (before the fake) and the crossing to Abby that was too far in from t of him. Rodgers also had a running lane on the INT to Jones (would have been called back due to penalty anyway).

Rodgers is not sharp. Stubby is generally pissed because he thinks the plays will work if just run better. I agree. IT's not like they are gonna score 30 points at will, but they might eat clock and produce 21. Take away the 21 points off turnovers and you have a ballgame.

But realistically, nothing is gonna work with two turnstiles at tackle....

Rodgers had another very poor throw to Adams on the sideline in the first half. Adams was open and just beyond the marker on third down; Rodgers sailed a throw way over his head. Rodgers had a lot of poor plays in that game, and the offense can't do a lot when he is "off" on so many plays.

The injuries to the tackles have been huge.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yoop's analysis is accurate. But, if what he says is true -- and I think it is (I've been saying all year that the Packers lack speed at virtually every skill position -- then explain Stubby's solution:

“He [Arod] cannot get hit like that, and we’ve got to change that,” McCarthy said. “(He) can’t hold the ball, either, and all the things that come with it. We’ve got to get (receivers) open quicker, we’ve got to beat man-to-man coverage, we’ve got to quit worrying about plays (called). We just need to focus on execution.”

I submit Stubby's solution to the problem is no solution at all. In effect he's saying that the players need to get faster so they can get open and beat man coverage. No amount of "focus on execution" is going to increase this team's speed.

I'm thinking that Stubby is an has been in denial. As a result, he hasn't modified his game plans to put his players -- slow as they are -- in a position to be successful. He should bite the bullet and get rid of hurry-up offense. He should have Arod operate more under center, which would facilitate more deceptive runs, play action passes, boot legs, screen plays, RB check-offs in the flat and delayed patterns over the middle. In short, he should stop asking his players to do what they cannot do. It's also getting people hurt.

My brother is driving down to Florida from Wisconsin to visit me. He watches the weather very carefully and has changed his route and driving times to accommodate the bad weather. Why? He can't change the weather. I suppose he could simply say "Fuck it, we're sticking to our original plan and we'll push through. We'll make it with proper execution." But we all know that's crazy. We all know you've got to adjust to the reality of the situation.

All of us know this except maybe one stubborn Head Coach?

[pbmax]

Nelson was their best player versus man coverage and even he could fall prey to it. He doesn't exactly light up the scoreboard versus the old 49ers or Seahawks. And even though he is not quick with his first step, he is the fastest they have outside of Janis. It does degrade the team athleticism and speed when he is not out there.

Arians mentioned the speed issue, how his D thought it would be no problem to matchup one on one. That has bothered the Pacers before and its bothering them now. Its worse without Nelson because the Packers can't take the ball deep on that man coverage.

Man coverage is tough when the opponent is fast or quick, its also tough with double moves and long routes. Guess who doesn't have time for those much anymore? The QB.

The man they are missing (who should have been Monty who is quicker than fast but can burn man coverage of the line) is Greg Jennings.

[Patler]

This team didn't suddenly become slow. It has been slow for a while, yet the offense still succeeded.

[pbmax]

You do not need to be faster to beat man coverage otherwise no TE would ever be open against a safety.

Cobb is a converted QB who is not the best route runner. His best routes are broken off on scrambles.

Nelson is gone.

Jones is slow but knows how to get position. He is the only one Rodgers trusts to get to the ball on contested throws by bodying the defender.

Adams just has not figured it out yet. But he also doesn't run great routes and the ankle injury doesn't help.

Janis' routes are more rudimentary than Adams. He often just runs to open space regardless of play call.

Abby has the tools but is playing a lost season with that concussion. He is also less than ideal outside one on one. He works best in the slot where Cobb is.

Driver didn't have great speed but he could outwork or out jump anyone to the ball. Only Nelson is close to Driver.

None of the Packer receivers before or since (maybe Brooks or Sharpe) were as good on a route as Jennings.

Its not a death knell as we saw last year. You can run against man coverage. If you can pass block, you can beat it on longer routes. But you can't have no run game and no pass blocking.

[pbmax]

This team didn't suddenly become slow. It has been slow for a while, yet the offense still succeeded.

Its not the only factor. But it is important in the context of the rest of the team. With no run game and no pass blocking, getting open quick is more important this year than ever.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Another observation...go back and watch the film of Arod's 2nd quarter interception throw at Jones. We've got 5 linemen to protect Arod against 5 rushers. Plus, Lacy was kept in the backfield to help out. So what happens. Barclay becomes a sieve and gets speed rushed. BUT HE HAS NO HELP. Lacy immediately looks to the right side and decides to double team someone there. So Barclay is called for holding and the play blows up.

Nevermind that Arod panics and launches the ball into double coverage.

You'd think the coaches would instruct Lacy to help out their weakest link on the Oline, wouldn't you? Either they did and Lacy is another Bostick or, again, the coach is denying reality.

Edit: In fact it's worse than I thought. There were only 4 Arizona defenders rushing Arod.

[Patler]

My brother is driving down to Florida from Wisconsin to visit me. He watches the weather very carefully and has changed his route and driving times to accommodate the bad weather. Why? He can't change the weather. I suppose he could simply say "Fuck it, we're sticking to our original plan and we'll push through. We'll make it with proper execution." But we all know that's crazy. We all know you've got to adjust to the reality of the situation.

All of us know this except maybe one stubborn Head Coach?

Not a good analogy. Having spent a half century driving all over the snow and cold country of ND, MN, WI, MI and Ontario in the dead of winter, I watched the weather reports and relied on thorough preparation and proper execution. Most often, changing my route was not an option, because there simply was no alternate route. Changing my time was out of the question, because schedules were schedules, and rarely changed.

[mraynrand]

really an excellent post, PB.



You do not need to be faster to beat man coverage otherwise no TE would ever be open against a safety.

Run Rodgers farther downfield and throw higher to him (note AZ throws high to a covered Floyd)

Cobb is a converted QB who is not the best route runner. His best routes are broken off on scrambles.

Nelson is gone.

Jones is slow but knows how to get position. He is the only one Rodgers trusts to get to the ball on contested throws by bodying the defender.

I noticed on Sunday that on at least two throws to Jones, Rodgers came back to Jones and threw even when covered. On a similar throw to Adams, he severely overthrew him.

Adams just has not figured it out yet. But he also doesn't run great routes and the ankle injury doesn't help.

Janis' routes are more rudimentary than Adams. He often just runs to open space regardless of play call.

Many receivers run some aborted patterns and just stop. Some guys get open on crossing routes, but before they clear Rodgers is fleeing pressure.

Abby has the tolls but is playing a lost season with that concussion. He is also less than ideal outside one on one. He works best in the slot where Cobb is.

Driver didn't have great speed but he could outwork or out jump anyone to the ball. Only Nelson is close to Driver.

None of the Packer receivers before or since (maybe Brooks or Sharpe) were as good on a route as Jennings.

Its not a death knell as we saw last year. You can run against man coverage.
especially Rodgers. Quick runs and slides for 5+ yards will help kill the press man coverage

If you can pass block, you can beat it on longer routes. But you can't have no run game and no pass blocking.

The O-line can be better. But will they be for the stretch run is the question. Packers could also help themselves with play calls against tendency and against down and distance

[Patler]

Its not the only factor. But it is important in the context of the rest of the team. With no run game and no pass blocking, getting open quick is more important this year than ever.

I agree, the lack of speed may have more impact this year, but it isn't the cause of the precipitous decline by the offense.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Not a good analogy. Having spent a half century driving all over the snow and cold country of ND, MN, WI, MI and Ontario in the dead of winter, I watched the weather reports and relied on thorough preparation and proper execution. Most often, changing my route was not an option, because there simply was no alternate route. Changing my time was out of the question, because schedules were schedules, and rarely changed.

The analogy is good. You're just in denial like Stubby. :-)

[pbmax]

I agree, the lack of speed may have more impact this year, but it isn't the cause of the precipitous decline by the offense.

Sure. But is any one brick the reason a bridge collapses?

Even here is the land of well considered internet commentary, we often get into binary considerations about whether a coach or player can get it done anymore.

But I suspect McCarthy would have coached his way out of this if one one or two of these issues hit this year or one was only temporary (say pass pro was terrible until Bulaga came back). We've seen him adjust before with offenses that were not firing on all cylinders. I just think he has run out of options.

The last resort is careful offense that runs plays that are called to avoid big negatives, even if that means you are going against the odds on a play (nine in a box). But his entire team (and QB) are built on trying to take advantage of those mis-matches. Its hard to turn into the Buccaneers Offense.

[mraynrand]

The analogy is good. You're just in denial like Stubby. :-)

It's a good analogy, but the answer is 'both' - sometimes you solve the problem by changing route and sometimes you have to go through and you just need to drive very very well.

[mraynrand]

The last resort is careful offense that runs plays that are called to avoid big negatives, even if that means you are going against the odds on a play (nine in a box). But his entire team (and QB) are built on trying to take advantage of those mis-matches. Its hard to turn into the Buccaneers Offense.

I think you're right on the money here. Stubby's GPS is broken so he can't navigate another route and he thinks they can win best if they just drive very, very carefully through a blizzard. (and they - Rodgers - are too impulsive)

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's a good analogy, but the answer is 'both' - sometimes you solve the problem by changing route and sometimes you have to go through and you just need to drive very very well.

Exactly. In the NFL nowadays you're always reacting against what the defense does. That's the whole idea behind "matching up well." The Packers of today are not healthy enough or talented enough to employ the Lombardi strategy of doing it the way we do it and challenge the other guys to stop it.

In many ways Stubby is in the same predicament that Chip Kelly was. He implemented some things in the off season for the offense scheme-wise based on the team he had then. Now he's in the position of either keep trying to make the square pegs fit in the round holes or bite the bullet and change to other strategies and simplify. Take some pressure off Arod, the Oline and the team in general.

[pbmax]

It's a good analogy, but the answer is 'both' - sometimes you solve the problem by changing route and sometimes you have to go through and you just need to drive very very well.

Its very geography dependent as well. Maxie's Brother has a plethora of choices driving to Florida from WI. Patler, in the vastness of Canada, had fewer choices and lots of Ice Road Truckers.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I think you're right on the money here. Stubby's GPS is broken so he can't navigate another route and he thinks they can win best if they just drive very, very carefully through a blizzard. (and they - Rodgers - are too impulsive)Right again. The entire focus of this offense, this year and last, is to be aggressive, is for Arod to adjust on the fly. A go slower and more deliberately strategy runs against that aggressive grain. But they need to do it. The go fast offense has the team out of sync, so you have Lacy making the wrong block and vets like Lang being confused and unsure of themselves.

[Patler]

They could have all the speed in the world, but when all 5 OL have significant injury issues; and when Sitton, who has had back issues for several years, has been the healthiest one of the bunch, I doubt the speed would matter, especially when Rodgers is performing more poorly than one would expect.

[hoosier]

In both the Dallas and the Oakland games there were allusions in the press conferences to "communication problems" that made me wonder what is going on between Rodgers and McCarthy. After the Dallas game Rodgers claimed that he couldn't understand what McCarthy was telling him through the headset because McCarthy's "Pittsburgh dialect" was too thick for him. What on earth does that mean? He's been listening to MM's play calls for eight years, and now suddenly he cannot understand his "dialect"?
http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-game-editorial/article-1/Aaron-Rodgers-says-it-was-about-execution/590e4eaf-d08b-4a50-85e7-1fa0d17f15de

Then, after the Oakland game, MM alluded to more "communication problems," which he blamed on the headsets as if to say it was a technical problem. It sounds to me like the problems may run a lot deeper than a malfunctioning communication device.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/363092811.html

[pbmax]

They could have all the speed in the world, but when all 5 OL have significant injury issues; and when Sitton, who has had back issues for several years, has been the healthiest one of the bunch, I doubt the speed would matter, especially when Rodgers is performing more poorly than one would expect.

Unlike past years or other questions about this year, I think these two fit together like puzzle pieces. Its one reason screens (both WR and RB) have been so prevalent this year.

[Maxie the Taxi]

In both the Dallas and the Oakland games there were allusions in the press conferences to "communication problems" that made me wonder what is going on between Rodgers and McCarthy. After the Dallas game Rodgers claimed that he couldn't understand what McCarthy was telling him through the headset because McCarthy's "Pittsburgh dialect" was too thick for him. What on earth does that mean? He's been listening to MM's play calls for eight years, and now suddenly he cannot understand his "dialect"?
http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-game-editorial/article-1/Aaron-Rodgers-says-it-was-about-execution/590e4eaf-d08b-4a50-85e7-1fa0d17f15de

Then, after the Oakland game, MM alluded to more "communication problems," which he blamed on the headsets as if to say it was a technical problem. It sounds to me like the problems may run a lot deeper than a malfunctioning communication device.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/363092811.html

I think you're on to something. When things start going south, everybody blames communication problems. Basically, what that is is a fancy way of transferring blame to someone else. I think there is some resentment on Arod's part because of the way Stubby handled the playcalling thing. Arod and Clements were tight. By all accounts Clements and Arod were clicking re: playcalling. Probably neither felt the need for change.

WAS change really needed? I don't know but I doubt it. I think taking playcalling back was Stubby's way of easing his own discomfort with the changes he had installed earlier. Early on, even before the bye week, the thought crossed my mind that if things started to go south, Stubby would appear on the scene as a super hero, take back the playcalling and save the day. I'm not saying it was purely a stunt, but there was an element to it of giving the team a needed shot in the arm. It just didn't turn out as dramatically as Stubby hoped.

The solution to these communication problems is 1) winning, but 2) dumping the complications of the hurry up, i.e., getting back to basics, making sure each person knows his assignment and then making sure he executes.

[pbmax]

I'd buy this line of thinking more if the first example wasn't Rodgers basically making a joke that McCarthy is tough to understand with his Pittsburgh accent and that it happened on just one play.

Otherwise, I am forced to rely on that tidbit signaling that Rodgers now holds a deep seated grudge against M3 for demoting his friend.

This is more of the same as the 2007 season and conference championship game. The QB is changing the calls, is having a disastrous time of it, and so far has not relented as much as the coach wants.

[mraynrand]

If there is a 'communication problem' it better get solved, because the consequences could be disastrous. I saw Tolzien taking snaps on the sideline after the game was out of hand in AZ (first turnover for TD I think?). But then Rodgers runs out there. Why? It's 31-0 and the game is over. Whose bright idea was it to get Rodgers hammered even more? Rodgers was pretty far away from Stubby down the sidelines when he sprinted on the field. The strategy after 31-0 - the personnel, the play calling, etc. was absurd.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'd buy this line of thinking more if the first example wasn't Rodgers basically making a joke that McCarthy is tough to understand with his Pittsburgh accent and that it happened on just one play.

Otherwise, I am forced to rely on that tidbit signaling that Rodgers now holds a deep seated grudge against M3 for demoting his friend.

This is more of the same as the 2007 season and conference championship game. The QB is changing the calls, is having a disastrous time of it, and so far has not relented as much as the coach wants.At some point for us it becomes nothing more but speculation. I'm curious what you think about making changes at this point in the game. You've talked about doing away with the hurry up and doing less shotgun, more under center and pistol. I'd like to see them use a 6th Olineman more. Do you think it's feasible at this late date to install these types of changes? Or, is harping on "execution" the only tactic now that is practical?

[Maxie the Taxi]

If there is a 'communication problem' it better get solved, because the consequences could be disastrous. I saw Tolzien taking snaps on the sideline after the game was out of hand in AZ (first turnover for TD I think?). But then Rodgers runs out there. Why? It's 31-0 and the game is over. Whose bright idea was it to get Rodgers hammered even more? Rodgers was pretty far away from Stubby down the sidelines when he sprinted on the field. The strategy after 31-0 - the personnel, the play calling, etc. was absurd.Another indication of friction or NON-communication between Stubby and Arod?

[mraynrand]

Another indication of friction or NON-communication between Stubby and Arod?

I saw it as 'screw it, I'm going back in.' I could be wrong but regardless, it was pretty damn stupid, considering Rodgers got clobbered again. After 31-0, they should have Tolzien in there dumping off short passes, screens, draws, and running the ball. Run the clock out and get the hell out of there.

[hoosier]

Another indication of friction or NON-communication between Stubby and Arod?

Conflict between two strong personalities. I don't see MM as someone who wants to be worshipped as a hero. For whatever reason or reasons, the offense as it was reconfigured after the Seattle debacle just wasn't working. Injuries may have played some role but do not explain everything. As someone said earlier, the loss of Nelson alone doesn't explain how the most explosive offense in the league suddenly becomes one of the slowest and largely inept. So MM felt that he had to make a change. In his place I probably would have reached the same conclusion. Rodgers seems to be chaffing at the change. Is it because he was close with Clements or because he had more autonomy under Clements, or both? Whatever the case, it is a bit surprising to see the team's leader pouting in his press conference, especially when a decent portion of the offense's problems could reasonably be attributed to his performance.

[mraynrand]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rodgers has progressed to the point where he thinks he knows better than Stubby. He's probably much brighter than Stubby in pure candle-power, and now has played enough that he has tons of experience and probably wants to run things his way. But even so, you still have to rely on the coaching and the game plan, or the continuity can fall apart, especially when you are trotting in replacement O-linemen all over the place.

[pbmax]

At some point for us it becomes nothing more but speculation. I'm curious what you think about making changes at this point in the game. You've talked about doing away with the hurry up and doing less shotgun, more under center and pistol. I'd like to see them use a 6th Olineman more. Do you think it's feasible at this late date to install these types of changes? Or, is harping on "execution" the only tactic now that is practical?

Putting aside injuries, I still think they need to move in that direction given their performance. Quarless helps. However, the running game has been very hot and cold all year and at some point during a bad run game they need to pass. So it helps only to protect the QB and the defense to some degree. The run game itself isn't a weapon in and of itself, its almost limited to a break your tendency plan.

I think M3 gets the need because Kuhn's snaps as FB are way up since he took control. I bet Q gets more time as well as he comes up to speed (if there are enough games left).

Hell, I might go full Seattle pre2015 and San Fran and stick both FBs out there.

But, and you knew this was coming, what do you do with two backup tackles in the game?

There are just too many broken pieces to construct a model of a good offense.

[Rutnstrut]

I do think most of the problem this year is something with Rodgers. Remember most here always claimed we always have a good chance if Rodgers is on the field. Well either he is hurt, he is pouting, or he is just not as good as we thought. I would say it's part of all three.

[pbmax]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rodgers has progressed to the point where he thinks he knows better than Stubby. He's probably much brighter than Stubby in pure candle-power, and now has played enough that he has tons of experience and probably wants to run things his way. But even so, you still have to rely on the coaching and the game plan, or the continuity can fall apart, especially when you are trotting in replacement O-linemen all over the place.

I think he is there. But we are focused too much on which coach he is mad at.

Does anyone think he was happy with the offensive plan before M3 took play calling back? He was just as peeved then.

I think its HIS version of the offense that is having the worst year. And providing some of the better highlights. Its Brett circa 2007 all over again.

[Patler]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rodgers has progressed to the point where he thinks he knows better than Stubby. He's probably much brighter than Stubby in pure candle-power, and now has played enough that he has tons of experience and probably wants to run things his way.

That's what I have been wondering for a while now. Almost putting himself on a different plane from the rest of the team. I think there is a tendency for experienced QB's to do that, partly because all of a sudden they find themselves playing with a team full of guys 10 years or more younger than they are.

AR has a tendency to say, "I am so proud of so-and-so" when a younger player has a good game. At times it comes across like a parent talking about their child, not one team mate talking about another.

To be honest, this rehtoric about Janis, Abrederis, Rodgers, Adams etc. having to earn AR's trust before they can play is getting old. Coaches say it, AR says it, other players say it and the subject players themselves say it. It might be true, just as it is with other QBs, but it is starting to come across as if AR has the ultimate say over who plays and how much they play. It's almost like a three step process (playbook, coaches, AR) with AR being the final decision maker.

During one of Favre's later years, they had a season when WR after WR was injured. At one time or another something like 10 different WRs were on the roster and played. Not many had the chance to earn Favre's trust, but no one talked about that.

I can see where a team of 60 guys might have a bunch who feel AR is putting himself above the team with his comments.

[smuggler]

The reality is that the team's talent level is weak compared to 2011 wrt TE/WR. Up until now, the team has relied on the passing game and that is not an option this season. The receiver depth until this point has mitigated Rodgers' flaw of holding the ball too long and helped the pass blocking look better than it ever truly was.

Now the pass blocking looks like shit and Rodgers' flaw is more obvious. Are we really going to point the finger at Rodgers here? To me, it's obvious. Fix the talent in the receiving corps and the issue is resolved. People deny this answer because people are generally stupid and will reject obvious conclusions if they're undesirable.

Specifically it's optimistic to put blame on Rodgers because that would mean things could somehow change all of a sudden and everything would be right. The reality? The fix cannot be applied in this season and we have no hope in the playoffs, but that's tough shit.

[Patler]

The reality is that the team's talent level is weak compared to 2011 wrt TE/WR. Up until now, the team has relied on the passing game and that is not an option this season. The receiver depth until this point has mitigated Rodgers' flaw of holding the ball too long and helped the pass blocking look better than it ever truly was.

Now the pass blocking looks like shit and Rodgers' flaw is more obvious. Are we really going to point the finger at Rodgers here? To me, it's obvious. Fix the talent in the receiving corps and the issue is resolved. People don't like that answer because it can't be accomplished this season, but that's tough shit.

I don't know, I think you could say it is just as obvious that if you fix Rodgers unusual for him accuracy issues, decision making and timid approach, then the WR issues wouldn't show up nearly so much.

[smuggler]

There are a few throws each game where you can see his accuracy is off, no doubt.

Accuracy is related to being hit 17 times a game. There has never been a QB to play this game that will play well being hit that often. They will always play better not being hit. The idea that there is a magical wizard quarterback that is blessed from above and always gets the job done no matter the supporting cast and no matter how the opposing team plays is a dream from the minds of simple fucking retards.

Correct the fact that none of the receivers can get open in man coverage, then Rodgers can throw the ball to an open receiver (the only way he'll ever regularly throw to a guy that's completely covered is if you're asleep and you're dreaming of the Packers), before the pocket falls apart, then he's not hit. Accuracy problem solved.

And, personally, I don't think the accuracy has been altogether that bad. As I conceded, there are throws that he has missed he usually makes. And, sure, his completion percentage is down, but his throw-aways (the thing everyone always begs for him to do) are way up this year, and so are passes that he has to deliberately throw into a difficult catch opportunity because a throw on-target would be contested by a defender. That's going to put completion percentage down.

[Patler]

There are a few throws each game where you can see his accuracy is off, no doubt.

Accuracy is related to being hit 17 times a game. There has never been a QB to play this game that will play well being hit that often. They will always play better not being hit. The idea that there is a magical wizard quarterback that is blessed from above and always gets the job done no matter the supporting cast and no matter how the opposing team plays is a dream from the minds of simple fucking retards.

Correct the fact that none of the receivers can get open in man coverage, then Rodgers can throw the ball to an open receiver (the only way he'll ever regularly throw to a guy that's completely covered is if you're asleep and you're dreaming of the Packers), then he's not hit. Accuracy problem solved.

I don't think the accuracy has been altogether that bad. Sure, his completion percentage is down, but his throw-aways (the thing everyone always begs for him to do) are way up this year, and so are passes that he has to deliberately throw into a difficult catch opportunity because a throw on-target would be contested. That's going to put completion percentage down.

Except that his accuracy was off and talked about even in training camp this year to the point that Rodgers was showing frustration with himself in throwing interceptions in practice (even to the rookie DBs). An excuse was fabricated about him simply throwing passes he normally wouldn't, to see how WRs handled it, giving them a chance to "earn his trust." Rodgers even said it once, which I thought was a flimsy excuse on his part. I started out the season looking for accuracy issues with Rodgers, I noted some questions about it even early in the season when they were winning and he wasn't being hit. I think it has gotten worse, but the accuracy issues were there before the other problems. Very early I questioned whether Rodgers was just having an off year.

[mraynrand]

That's what I have been wondering for a while now. Almost putting himself on a different plane from the rest of the team. I think there is a tendency for experienced QB's to do that, partly because all of a sudden they find themselves playing with a team full of guys 10 years or more younger than they are.

AR has a tendency to say, "I am so proud of so-and-so" when a younger player has a good game. At times it comes across like a parent talking about their child, not one team mate talking about another.

To be honest, this rehtoric about Janis, Abrederis, Rodgers, Adams etc. having to earn AR's trust before they can play is getting old. Coaches say it, AR says it, other players say it and the subject players themselves say it. It might be true, just as it is with other QBs, but it is starting to come across as if AR has the ultimate say over who plays and how much they play. It's almost like a three step process (playbook, coaches, AR) with AR being the final decision maker.

During one of Favre's later years, they had a season when WR after WR was injured. At one time or another something like 10 different WRs were on the roster and played. Not many had the chance to earn Favre's trust, but no one talked about that.

I can see where a team of 60 guys might have a bunch who feel AR is putting himself above the team with his comments.

That Favre year was 2005 and it was Andrae Thurman he was throwing to. Favre didn't give a shit who was at WR, he just kept slinging it. But Favre would also throw it up for grabs in a game like Sunday where the O-line was shouting "Ole!" as they whiffed and the defenders stampeded towards the QB.

Rodgers is off, but absolutely the pressure makes it worse. And the pressure is not Rodger's fault, or at least very little of it is.

I said it before and I'll say it again: check-down, touch down has to be the mentality. There are offenses far shittier than GB that could score two TDs against AZ while not giving up two TDs. A more conservative offensive game plan could keep the Packers in playoff games against better teams because their defense is not all that bad, especially if Shields returns.

[pbmax]

Well, camp INTs did not follow him into the regular season until the offense was coming apart at the seams.



Date . Week . Tm Opp Result GS . Cm . Att . Cmp% . Yds . TD . Int Rate . Y/A . AY/A
2015-09-13 . 01 . GNB . @CHI . W 31-23 . * . 18 . 23 . 78.26 . 189 . 3 . 0 . 140.5 . 8.22 . 10.83
2015-09-20 . 02 . GNB . vSEA . W 27-17 . * . 25 . 33 . 75.76 . 249 . 2 . 0 . 116.9 . 7.55 . 8.76
2015-09-28 . 03 . GNB . vKAN . W 38-28 . * . 24 . 35 . 68.57 . 333 . 5 . 0 . 138.5 . 9.51 . 12.37
2015-10-04 . 04 . GNB . @SFO . W 17-3 .. * . 22 . 32 . 68.75 . 224 . 1 . 0 . 99.0 .. 7.00 . 7.63
2015-10-11 . 05 . GNB . vSTL . W 24-10 . * . 19 . 30 . 63.33 . 241 . 2 . 2 . 82.8 .. 8.03 . 6.37
2015-10-18 . 06 . GNB . vSDG . W 27-20 . * . 16 . 29 . 55.17 . 255 . 2 . 0 . 107.7 . 8.79 . 10.17
2015-11-01 . 08 . GNB . @DEN . L 10-29 . * . 14 . 22 . 63.64 . 077 . 0 . 0 . 69.7 .. 3.50 . 3.50
2015-11-08 . 09 . GNB . @CAR . L 29-37 . * . 25 . 48 . 52.08 . 369 . 4 . 1 . 96.6 .. 7.69 . 8.42
2015-11-15 . 10 . GNB . vDET . L 16-18 . * . 35 . 61 . 57.38 . 333 . 2 . 0 . 83.6 .. 5.46 . 6.11
2015-11-22 . 11 . GNB . @MIN . W 30-13 . * . 16 . 34 . 47.06 . 212 . 2 . 0 . 86.9 .. 6.24 . 7.41
2015-11-26 . 12 . GNB . vCHI . L 13-17 . * . 22 . 43 . 51.16 . 202 . 1 . 1 . 62.4 .. 4.70 . 4.12
2015-12-03 . 13 . GNB . @DET . W 27-23 . * . 24 . 36 . 66.67 . 273 . 2 . 1 . 96.2 .. 7.58 . 7.44
2015-12-13 . 14 . GNB . vDAL . W 28-7 .. * . 22 . 35 . 62.86 . 218 . 2 . 0 . 99.5 .. 6.23 . 7.37
2015-12-20 . 15 . GNB . @OAK . W 30-20 . * . 22 . 39 . 56.41 . 204 . 1 . 1 . 68.8 .. 5.23 . 4.59
2015-12-27 . 16 . GNB . @ARI . L 8-38 .. * . 15 . 28 . 53.57 . 151 . 1 . 1 . 66.2 .. 5.39 . 4.50



Versus Seattle D, Kansas City D, St Louis D, Rodgers fares pretty well. With a completion percentage of better than 70% and a passer rating near 115.

But after 5 weeks, indeed possibly during Week 5 (2 picks), it was obvious teams saw on film what they could do to shut down this version of the Packer offense. This marked the turning point of man coverage and five man rushed to keep him from scrambling.

[woodbuck27]

I think the bigger problem is that they have no speed. So it almost doesn't matter how many times Rodgers changes the play vs what's called.

After watching the Cardinals offense and then the Broncos-Bengals game on Monday, it struck me how many more fast options those teams had available and how much more stress that puts on the defense.

Cobb can do it sometimes, but teams usually take him out of the plan pretty easily.

A big part of Starks's success seems to be that he gets upfield so fast. I think it's a shock to opposing defenses. But he can't stop carrying the ball in the wrong arm and puts the ball on the ground too much.

Janis can't be trusted to make routine plays.

Abbredaris has flashed some ability to get open as a #3/4 but even he's been inconsistent.

Their normal starting lineup is almost all plodders and it is hard to even catch a defense off guard because they don't need to worry about recovering if they're caught out of position by a crafty playcall, a check, or what-have-you.

So maybe M3 is right. Maybe they should just line up and run the plays called and at least operate as a unit and not think about whether or not to change the play. At the very least, they won't be confused, even if they're slow.

Yes simply put:

Keep it simple in the Red Zone...and have a lot of confidence based in what you did right to get that close to a major score....a TD !

Keep it simple and just call a solid play and everyone then gets on the same page and you execute that play as it's been executed so often in practise.

The coaching has to gtr the team game ready. Be confident in the preparation and then simply have faith in the correct execution. It's NOT Rocket Science OUR Team simply gets better prepared that the opposing team.

Our team gets errrr done best overall.

GO PACK GO !

[mraynrand]

Keep it simple and just call a solid play and everyone then gets on the same page and you execute that play as it's been executed so often in practise.

Finally we have a clear plan for victory.

[Smidgeon]

Well, camp INTs did not follow him into the regular season until the offense was coming apart at the seams.



Date Week Tm Opp Result GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A
2015-09-13 1 GNB @ CHI W 31-23 * 18 23 78.26 189 3 0 140.5 8.22 10.83
2015-09-20 2 GNB SEA W 27-17 * 25 33 75.76 249 2 0 116.9 7.55 8.76
2015-09-28 3 GNB KAN W 38-28 * 24 35 68.57 333 5 0 138.5 9.51 12.37
2015-10-04 4 GNB @ SFO W 17-3 * 22 32 68.75 224 1 0 99.0 7.00 7.63
2015-10-11 5 GNB STL W 24-10 * 19 30 63.33 241 2 2 82.8 8.03 6.37
2015-10-18 6 GNB SDG W 27-20 * 16 29 55.17 255 2 0 107.7 8.79 10.17
2015-11-01 8 GNB @ DEN L 10-29 * 14 22 63.64 77 0 0 69.7 3.50 3.50
2015-11-08 9 GNB @ CAR L 29-37 * 25 48 52.08 369 4 1 96.6 7.69 8.42
2015-11-15 10 GNB DET L 16-18 * 35 61 57.38 333 2 0 83.6 5.46 6.11
2015-11-22 11 GNB @ MIN W 30-13 * 16 34 47.06 212 2 0 86.9 6.24 7.41
2015-11-26 12 GNB CHI L 13-17 * 22 43 51.16 202 1 1 62.4 4.70 4.12
2015-12-03 13 GNB @ DET W 27-23 * 24 36 66.67 273 2 1 96.2 7.58 7.44
2015-12-13 14 GNB DAL W 28-7 * 22 35 62.86 218 2 0 99.5 6.23 7.37
2015-12-20 15 GNB @ OAK W 30-20 * 22 39 56.41 204 1 1 68.8 5.23 4.59
2015-12-27 16 GNB @ ARI L 8-38 * 15 28 53.57 151 1 1 66.2 5.39 4.50


Versus Seattle D, Kansas City D, St Louis D, Rodgers fares pretty well. With a completion percentage of better than 70% and a passer rating near 115.

But after 5 weeks, indeed possibly during Week 5, it was obvious teams saw on film what they could do to shut down this version of the Packer offense. This marked the turning point of man coverage and five man rushed to keep him from scrambling.

Wow, the statistical difference pre Denver vs Denver and after is dramatic. Strictly defenses picking up on Packers' O tendencies or did injuries on the oline coincide?

[mraynrand]

Wow, the statistical difference pre Denver vs Denver and after is dramatic. Strictly defenses picking up on Packers' O tendencies or did injuries on the oline coincide?

I think the troubles precede even the Denver game. The decline coincides directly with the injury to Monty. It really is remarkable - right after that injury in the SD game, the Packers were just stymied.

[pbmax]

I think it was film first, then Monty, then injuries to O Line.

Packers Offense didn't light it up versus San Fran. What does San Fran play? Cover 2 man under. St Louis has the pass rush but not the DBs. San Diego found the pass rush but doesn't have a great D overall. Denver has it all and put the screws to the offense based on the varying levels of success of the previous three opponents.

[Patler]

That Favre year was 2005 and it was Andrae Thurman he was throwing to. Favre didn't give a shit who was at WR, he just kept slinging it. But Favre would also throw it up for grabs in a game like Sunday where the O-line was shouting "Ole!" as they whiffed and the defenders stampeded towards the QB.

Rodgers is off, but absolutely the pressure makes it worse. And the pressure is not Rodger's fault, or at least very little of it is.

I said it before and I'll say it again: check-down, touch down has to be the mentality. There are offenses far shittier than GB that could score two TDs against AZ while not giving up two TDs. A more conservative offensive game plan could keep the Packers in playoff games against better teams because their defense is not all that bad, especially if Shields returns.

Ya, I wasn't suggesting I want AR to become Favre. The problem now is that without injuries necessitating a change, it's hard for a younger player to "earn" time after the season starts, because practices have become so nonphysical and noncompetitive.

Adams has played like crap week after week. What would it hurt to give Abrederis and Janis consistent opportunities each week, with a few less snaps going to Adams? Maybe the lightbulb will go on.

I think Janis is a good example. On STs early in the year, he looked totally out of control on punt coverage. Made a bad decision or two, but has gotten better as the season rolled on. Watching him on punt coverage is now one of the entertaining things about a Packer game. Janis has been open deep at least twice that I recall, and Rodgers overthrew him once and underthrew him on another. I'm not sure you can blame Janis on either of those. That doesn't include the moonshot Rodgers threw that they failed to connect on. Maybe if they saw each other at game speed more, they would start connecting on those. Janis has played, but often ends up in a blocking assignment more than a targeted one.

[pbmax]

If practices no longer allow young player to ascend, how did Adams climb over Boykin on the depth chart in 2014? To the point of being the focus of the game plan versus the Patriots and Cowboys?

[Patler]

If practices no longer allow young player to ascend, how did Adams climb over Boykin on the depth chart in 2014? To the point of being the focus of the game plan versus the Patriots and Cowboys?

Boykin got hurt, missed games 4, 5 and 6; which gave Adams his chance. Boykin had started games 1-3, never started again after coming back from the injury.

[pbmax]

Boykin got hurt, missed games 4, 5 and 6; which gave Adams his chance. Boykin had started games 1-3, never started again after coming back from the injury.

Adams got hurt this year as well. Missed 4 games completely (4-7).

Monty used this opportunity. Janis did not. Its a little early for Magical Abby.

[beveaux1]

Except that his accuracy was off and talked about even in training camp this year to the point that Rodgers was showing frustration with himself in throwing interceptions in practice (even to the rookie DBs). An excuse was fabricated about him simply throwing passes he normally wouldn't, to see how WRs handled it, giving them a chance to "earn his trust." Rodgers even said it once, which I thought was a flimsy excuse on his part. I started out the season looking for accuracy issues with Rodgers, I noted some questions about it even early in the season when they were winning and he wasn't being hit. I think it has gotten worse, but the accuracy issues were there before the other problems. Very early I questioned whether Rodgers was just having an off year.

There have been some mitigating circumstances relating to Rodgers' off year. Certainly, injuries to the offensive line, to the receivers, coaching changes, even a sporadic running game has fogged the picture as to how much drop off is attributable to Rodgers. I don't claim to be an expert at film study, but a few things have stuck out in watching this season progress.

Rodgers has had what I would call "happy feet" which started around the San Diego game. He began to perceive pressure and would leave the pocket even when there was no real threat. He's always been good at feeling pressure and sliding to the left or right, but for 6 or 7 games he saw pressure that wasn't there, slid out of the pocket and took needless sacks because he moved into the OLs blocking pattern. If he wasn't sacked, he indirectly caused holding penalties, or he threw it away, which leads to the 2nd thing I've noticed.

He stopped making plays with his feet during that same 6 or 7 game stretch. It could be a result of teams using 5 man rushes to block escape lanes, but even when presented with a lane to run he would throw the ball away, or make a throw that would take a herculean effort to catch, or would cause the 3rd thing I noticed.

He made inaccurate throws. This has continued from the Charger game until now. When assessing Rodgers as an elite QB, analysts generally point to arm strength, athleticism in the pocket, decision making, and accuracy. His arm strength is still there. The athleticism is still there and he's shown that in the past 3 games. The decision making and the accuracy have not been at an elite level and are not an elite level today.

Have we ever seen, in year's past, Rodgers throw balls up for grabs in the end zone. Look at the Detroit game, the Chicago game, the Oakland game, and the Arizona game. All games which featured poor throws into the end zone at some point in the game.

Living where I do, I get the chance to watch Cowboys games, Saints games, and Texans games. The Cowboys and Texans have obvious issues with QB play. The Saints don't have those issues on offense regardless of what lineman is nicked up or out, what WR or TE is nicked up or out, or what RB is out. The sole difference is the play of an elite QB. This year, Rodgers play has been that of an above-average QB. In my opinion, it's been far below the elite level QBs, even below the very good QBs. Unless Rodgers returns to the form that made him an MVP, we won't return to the Super Bowl. I don't really think the chances of that happening are very good.

[pbmax]

The best example of him feeling pressure that wasn't there was Cobb open for a TD that Rodgers didn't throw versus Carolina. He came off Cobb instantaneously due to wide pressure. When that pressure was blockeded, he looked elsewhere but someone up the middle was free by then.

[MadtownPacker]

The reality is that the team's talent level is weak compared to 2011 wrt TE/WR. Up until now, the team has relied on the passing game and that is not an option this season. The receiver depth until this point has mitigated Rodgers' flaw of holding the ball too long and helped the pass blocking look better than it ever truly was.

Now the pass blocking looks like shit and Rodgers' flaw is more obvious. Are we really going to point the finger at Rodgers here? To me, it's obvious. Fix the talent in the receiving corps and the issue is resolved. People deny this answer because people are generally stupid and will reject obvious conclusions if they're undesirable.

Specifically it's optimistic to put blame on Rodgers because that would mean things could somehow change all of a sudden and everything would be right. The reality? The fix cannot be applied in this season and we have no hope in the playoffs, but that's tough shit.I think I have seen this show before!!!

Let me be the one to say it first, Rodgers apologist!! :lol:

[pbmax]

I think I have seen this show before!!!

Let me be the one to say it first, Rodgers apologist!! :lol:

You are not just rooting for the Official Rodgers The Living Legend thread aren't you? :D

[Patler]

Adams got hurt this year as well. Missed 4 games completely (4-7).

Monty used this opportunity. Janis did not. Its a little early for Magical Abby.

I agree, and would go on to say that it isn't impossible for a younger player to surpass another, but as I stated earlier it is hard(er) than it may have been in the past. Even MM commented one time about training camp setting rotations, that become hard for another player to crack into after the season starts. Even being a rookie vs a second year player, Montgomery may have been more ready than Janis at the time of Adams' injury. I have always said Janis could be on the Donald Driver 4 year plan for player development.

From his work as a gunner, Janis strikes me as the type who will improve from doing it. It also strikes me that AR has not zeroed in on Janis' speed yet. I'm not looking for either Abrederis or Janis to move into the starting lineup, but with as poorly as Admas has played I think each of the others could see a few plays directed at them without hurting production. They really aren't getting any from Adams anyway.

[Patler]

There have been some mitigating circumstances relating to Rodgers' off year. Certainly, injuries to the offensive line, to the receivers, coaching changes, even a sporadic running game has fogged the picture as to how much drop off is attributable to Rodgers. I don't claim to be an expert at film study, but a few things have stuck out in watching this season progress.

Rodgers has had what I would call "happy feet" which started around the San Diego game. He began to perceive pressure and would leave the pocket even when there was no real threat. He's always been good at feeling pressure and sliding to the left or right, but for 6 or 7 games he saw pressure that wasn't there, slid out of the pocket and took needless sacks because he moved into the OLs blocking pattern. If he wasn't sacked, he indirectly caused holding penalties, or he threw it away, which leads to the 2nd thing I've noticed.

He stopped making plays with his feet during that same 6 or 7 game stretch. It could be a result of teams using 5 man rushes to block escape lanes, but even when presented with a lane to run he would throw the ball away, or make a throw that would take a herculean effort to catch, or would cause the 3rd thing I noticed.

He made inaccurate throws. This has continued from the Charger game until now. When assessing Rodgers as an elite QB, analysts generally point to arm strength, athleticism in the pocket, decision making, and accuracy. His arm strength is still there. The athleticism is still there and he's shown that in the past 3 games. The decision making and the accuracy have not been at an elite level and are not an elite level today.

Have we ever seen, in year's past, Rodgers throw balls up for grabs in the end zone. Look at the Detroit game, the Chicago game, the Oakland game, and the Arizona game. All games which featured poor throws into the end zone at some point in the game.

Living where I do, I get the chance to watch Cowboys games, Saints games, and Texans games. The Cowboys and Texans have obvious issues with QB play. The Saints don't have those issues on offense regardless of what lineman is nicked up or out, what WR or TE is nicked up or out, or what RB is out. The sole difference is the play of an elite QB. This year, Rodgers play has been that of an above-average QB. In my opinion, it's been far below the elite level QBs, even below the very good QBs. Unless Rodgers returns to the form that made him an MVP, we won't return to the Super Bowl. I don't really think the chances of that happening are very good.

Very good summary of things we have discussed individually on ere the last couple months. I have the same concern that you do, and mentioned last week that AR might be experiencing at 32 what some do not experience until 34, 35, 36, or even later; the erosion of skills that made them truly unique. With Rodgers, that was his accuracy. It is hard if not impossible to get those back once they leave.

The somewhat perplexing thing to me is any real decline in decision making. That does not have to worsen with age, and sometimes even increases even when physical talent wanes. However, if Rodgers is starting to question his own ability to put the ball into tight windows, that couold affect his decision making.

[beveaux1]

Very good summary of things we have discussed individually on ere the last couple months. I have the same concern that you do, and mentioned last week that AR might be experiencing at 32 what some do not experience until 34, 35, 36, or even later; the erosion of skills that made them truly unique. With Rodgers, that was his accuracy. It is hard if not impossible to get those back once they leave.

The somewhat perplexing thing to me is any real decline in decision making. That does not have to worsen with age, and sometimes even increases even when physical talent wanes. However, if Rodgers is starting to question his own ability to put the ball into tight windows, that couold affect his decision making.

I read an article about that very thing. It stated that nearly all the elite quarterbacks have one or two years that are what we would call "off-years". It can occur at any age but it usually occurs in their 30s. Afterwards, their career continues with a QBR as high as it was previously until the inevitable decline. Let's hope Rodgers' decline is not premature.

[pbmax]

- I think you have inverted your standard. You want him to get snaps at WR without earning it during practice so he can learn while doing like he did at gunner. This doesn't represent a change from practices of yore, it represents a change in how starters are selected. Young WRs face a big hurdle to get on the field (see either Jones or Nelson) regularly unless there are injuries. Game like hitting in 11 on 11 or ones versus ones haven't happened in practice since before Infante.

- Rodgers had happy and bad feet while waiting in the pocket as a young starter. He looked very uncomfortable in 2009 until the Cowboys game when they altered the offense. He moved without purpose at times and found pressure when there was none. I'm not sure this is new, more like regression.

- I think the inaccuracy is not due to a decline in skills but due to a distrust of receivers winning their battles. He was fine early in the season when the offense was humming.

[Fosco33]

Teams have figured out our offense for the past few years - some w/ the personnel to make it work. If you can't beat man blitzes - it's gonna be a long night. When you rely on pass penalties because your wrs are getting knocked around - it's gonna be a long night.

I think in order -

1. Lacy and inconsistent running game
2. Inability to get open through athleticism or scheme
3. Rodgers holding ball too long
4. Injuries

I'm nervous that we'll go 0-3 vs division at home and 3-0 on the road... And any decent team can beat the pack in the playoffs. A oat year unless a lot changes.

[Bretsky]

WHERE THERE IS FUEL THERE IS FIRE; PATLER IS ON TO SOMETHING
BIll Scott from GB today came out and noted he thought there was some team discention and noted no surprise if players only meeting is coming soon

A run was called; AROD audibled and threw is to "we all wish you were Allan Robinson" Brick Hands who dropped it. No secret Lang was not happy. Apparently Sitton has now made a comment as well.

There is some shit going on.

My get tells me Clement gave Rodgers infinite rein and now MM wants to take some back.

[pbmax]

^ I can see your last point. I think that is definitely on the table and is what Lang was chirping about. But its not a revolt. It was a run-pass option. Its like being mad a draw was called on third down.

But Bill Scott is the least informed member of the media going. He is routinely laughed at by other reporters for drawing conclusions based on info he has never seen with his own eyes. He does not go to off season practices, camp or in season practices. He is less informed than most members of this forum.

[Rutnstrut]

Bretsky, I think you are 100% correct about Clements giving Rodgers free reign. I think stubby is more strict and Rodgers is now acting like a spoiled child.

[Joemailman]

It's an interesting situation. If there's a rift between McCarthy and Rodgers, I wonder who the other players on offense are inclined to support. Seems like Lang thought they should have run the ball. Or maybe he's just tired of seeing Adams drop passes. I've seen what looked like rather lethargic route running by some of the receivers. Maybe they've lost confidence in McCarthy's offense. Maybe they figure Rodgers isn't going to throw it to them anyway. Just speculating here out of frustration.

[Bretsky]

Offensive Lineman love smack mouth run it down their throat football in general. They also have to be sick of seeing Adams drop balls

[yetisnowman]

Offensive Lineman love smack mouth run it down their throat football in general. They also have to be sick of seeing Adams drop balls

Surely this is all true. However seeing an o-lineman turn 180°, throw his arms up, and say "why did you do that? was pretty weird.....and very concerning.

[denverYooper]

Well... this doesn't help:

Mike Renner ‏@PFF_Mike 20h20 hours ago
Don Barclay has given up the 2nd most sacks in the NFL. He hasn't even played half a season. Maybe just sit ARod this week

[denverYooper]

As far as Jordy not changing team speed, he was fast enough and dangerous enough to where other teams had to play one or both safeties deeper, depending on the talent in the defense. So that usually stretched the opposing defense out. And he played every snap. Right now, they can play all their guys closer to the line because no one forces them to worry about that.

But as you've all hashed out so far, there are a number of issues at this point besides that.

As Rand said elsewhere, the best bet is to play small ball to keep the game close. Use that 4 yards and a cloud of dust passing game with RRodgers, Jones, and Cobb alongside runs from Lacy and Starks. Just keep the chains moving and the clock rolling and play for the last score. It's a humble way to be,but the Packers offense is pretty humble right now.Might as well run what they brung.

[pbmax]

Well... this doesn't help:

Mike Renner ‏@PFF_Mike 20h20 hours ago
Don Barclay has given up the 2nd most sacks in the NFL. He hasn't even played half a season. Maybe just sit ARod this week

And the odd thing is he had been better at Left Tackle. The game where he replaced Bach midway he held up OK. Must have been the matchup because otherwise he has been terrible.

[mraynrand]

Barclay reminds me of the yellow plastic starting gate:

http://snowdrifters.org/racing/images/hada_start.jpg

[mraynrand]

Josh Walker:

http://i21.geccdn.net/site/images/n-picgroup/87079.jpg

[Patler]

Offensive Lineman love smack mouth run it down their throat football in general. They also have to be sick of seeing Adams drop ballsSurely this is all true. However seeing an o-lineman turn 180°, throw his arms up, and say "why did you do that? was pretty weird.....and very concerning.

Yup, especially when his QB is a two-time MVP widely considered to be one of the very best in the league. It is an indication of extreme frustration, and could be an example that AR does not have the leadership respect he may have had in the past.

[Patler]

- I think you have inverted your standard. You want him to get snaps at WR without earning it during practice so he can learn while doing like he did at gunner. This doesn't represent a change from practices of yore, it represents a change in how starters are selected. Young WRs face a big hurdle to get on the field (see either Jones or Nelson) regularly unless there are injuries. Game like hitting in 11 on 11 or ones versus ones haven't happened in practice since before Infante.

I'm not advocating that Janis start. You brought in the issue of starters with your question about Adams. I'm not advocating that he plays a lot. I am suggesting that they should be able to design ways to use him for limited number of plays in ways other than as a blocker. Not one of the players ahead of him is playing so well that he will be missed for a few plays.

It's not just game-like hitting in practice that has fallen by the wayside. The concept of "contact" has lowered, and contact practices have steadily decreased. Practice time has reduced to the point that it is now difficult to find time to use a non-starter with the starters, or even use the nonstarters much at all. Many coaches have complained about it.

[woodbuck27]

WHERE THERE IS FUEL THERE IS FIRE; PATLER IS ON TO SOMETHING
BIll Scott from GB today came out and noted he thought there was some team discention and noted no surprise if players only meeting is coming soon

A run was called; AROD audibled and threw is to "we all wish you were Allan Robinson" Brick Hands who dropped it. No secret Lang was not happy. Apparently Sitton has now made a comment as well.

There is some shit going on.

My get tells me Clement gave Rodgers infinite rein and now MM wants to take some back.

Any QB is in a pile of doo doo if he loses the respect of his OL.

I think it's time for Aaron Rodgers to take Em all out for a huge night..... gorging.

I know in Green Bay likely women is out but there's still wine (food) and song.

Seriously ...... the OL is hurting. It's not strong enough to fit Aaron Rodgers style of playing his position specifically in targeting the deep pass. So it's necessary for an offensive game plan to feature the run and short pass. We need to see more short yardage pass plays...the short slant and curl patterns.

We need to see some screen pass's.

We need to see Aaron Rodgers use his legs and make more runs.

We need for MM to design an offensive package that gives us some real chance of moving the ball.

We need to see Aaron Rodgers get rid of his on field smirking demeanor and act like the encouraging leader he's over paid to be.

Might this be simply an off year for Aaron Rodgers!? Of course.... but it's now about seeing him have the best chance to succeed. The above is just some idea of how that might happen.

GO PACK GO !

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'm not advocating that Janis start. You brought in the issue of starters with your question about Adams. I'm not advocating that he plays a lot. I am suggesting that they should be able to design ways to use him for limited number of plays in ways other than as a blocker. Not one of the players ahead of him is playing so well that he will be missed for a few plays.

It's not just game-like hitting in practice that has fallen by the wayside. The concept of "contact" has lowered, and contact practices have steadily decreased. Practice time has reduced to the point that it is now difficult to find time to use a non-starter with the starters, or even use the nonstarters much at all. Many coaches have complained about it.

Careful, Patler, or pbmax will change his signature.

Seriously, it's coaching philosophy. In my business I've often bypassed tradition and given an employee a chance to perform above his pay grade or training level, purely on my own assessment of his talents/potential. I've promoted green newcomers over experienced vets and it's usually worked out.

If Janis has good intangibles, if he's the type that is sincere, can learn from experience and really wants the challenge, I'd give him a chance to perform under the lights.

[mraynrand]

I think it's time for Aaron Rodgers to take Em all out for a huge night..... gorging.

great idea. Just what the O-line needs: to get fatter and slower.

[Smidgeon]

Teams have figured out our offense for the past few years - some w/ the personnel to make it work. If you can't beat man blitzes - it's gonna be a long night. When you rely on pass penalties because your wrs are getting knocked around - it's gonna be a long night.

I think in order -

1. Lacy and inconsistent running game
2. Inability to get open through athleticism or scheme
3. Rodgers holding ball too long
4. Injuries

I'm nervous that we'll go 0-3 vs division at home and 3-0 on the road... And any decent team can beat the pack in the playoffs. A oat year unless a lot changes.

Earlier in the year, I was pushing

1. Lacy
2. Oline injuries

But your comment on the blitzes made me think: Cobb is probably the only WR with enough experience to consistently adjust his routes on blitzes to find an immediate soft spot. Jones isn't quick enough. The rest are inexperienced. And since Cobb is bracketed, he isn't really a hot read option. Leaving....no one. And lots of pressure and a negative play.

[Smidgeon]

I'm not advocating that Janis start. You brought in the issue of starters with your question about Adams. I'm not advocating that he plays a lot. I am suggesting that they should be able to design ways to use him for limited number of plays in ways other than as a blocker. Not one of the players ahead of him is playing so well that he will be missed for a few plays.

It's not just game-like hitting in practice that has fallen by the wayside. The concept of "contact" has lowered, and contact practices have steadily decreased. Practice time has reduced to the point that it is now difficult to find time to use a non-starter with the starters, or even use the nonstarters much at all. Many coaches have complained about it.

Maybe I am misremembering, but the year Nelson and Jones were vying for the #3 spot, wasn't Jordy often the sole WR in on running plays? The same role that Janis seems to have now? The one with the speed that adds the threat of the deep play (even if it is rarely realized). Makes me wonder if that's intentional, putting him on a similar trajectory (in regards to playing time not necessarily production) or if my recollection is really just faulty on that particular memory.

[beveaux1]

Maybe I am misremembering, but the year Nelson and Jones were vying for the #3 spot, wasn't Jordy often the sole WR in on running plays? The same role that Janis seems to have now? The one with the speed that adds the threat of the deep play (even if it is rarely realized). Makes me wonder if that's intentional, putting him on a similar trajectory (in regards to playing time not necessarily production) or if my recollection is really just faulty on that particular memory.

I don't believe you're misremembering, but I thought the reason was that Nelson was the best blocking WR.

[pbmax]

Earlier in the year, I was pushing

1. Lacy
2. Oline injuries

But your comment on the blitzes made me think: Cobb is probably the only WR with enough experience to consistently adjust his routes on blitzes to find an immediate soft spot. Jones isn't quick enough. The rest are inexperienced. And since Cobb is bracketed, he isn't really a hot read option. Leaving....no one. And lots of pressure and a negative play.

That's a fair point. While mostly we have been talking about the disintegration of the passing game, Lacy and the O line have lost the thread on the running game. And then Starks began to fumble.

At this point, if the Packers found a receiver who could beat man coverage and catch the ball, producing first downs on a regular basis, I would fear for his life because nothing lasts in this offense this year.

[pbmax]

Lang is tired of banging his head on passing their way out of the Offensive problem. Its simply frustration.

Now, if M3 told Rodgers to stop running run-pass option and he audible to that play himself, then you might have something. But of course, we don't have any evidence that is what happened.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Lang is tired of banging his head on passing their way out of the Offensive problem. Its simply frustration.

Now, if M3 told Rodgers to stop running run-pass option and he audible to that play himself, then you might have something. But of course, we don't have any evidence that is what happened.

I think Arod's thought process went something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RerJWv5vwxc

[denverYooper]

Maybe I am misremembering, but the year Nelson and Jones were vying for the #3 spot, wasn't Jordy often the sole WR in on running plays? The same role that Janis seems to have now? The one with the speed that adds the threat of the deep play (even if it is rarely realized). Makes me wonder if that's intentional, putting him on a similar trajectory (in regards to playing time not necessarily production) or if my recollection is really just faulty on that particular memory.

I was thinking about this too, but Jordy got more snaps in general.

Still, Jordy didn't truly break out until the end of year #2. When he grabbed that bomb at the beginning of the Giants game at the end of 2010 is when he really started to climb. Then his Superbowl performance launched him to a much more prominent role.

I still think Janis has a future in the offense. It's just going to take at least another year. I predict he has at least one more flash play on offense this year, but I wouldn't count on regular production from him.

[gbgary]

it boils down to the o-line for me. it affects the run so the rbs aren't as productive, it affects the qb as he has less time. couple that with press/bump-and-run coverage and you have the disaster we're forced to endure every week. Rodgers' unwillingness to force a pass into tight coverage exacerbates the issues. we need two stud o-linemen in the draft.

[MadtownPacker]

Maybe this has something to do with it...

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/aaron-rodgers-almost-scores-a-date-when-posing-as-054055162.html

[Patler]

As this thread indicates, people have been making excuses for AR since 2015.

It was Clement's fault when he became the play caller.
It was McCarthy's fault for many, varied reasons.
It was TT's fault in roster building.
It was/is the receivers' faults for what they do or don't do.
It was because the receivers were slow.
It's because the receivers are young.
It was/is because the backs are no good and the running game sucks.
It was/is because the running game isn't used enough.
It's the o-line's fault (even when it included Lang and Sitton).
It was because there wasn't a threat at TE.
It was because the offense hasn't changed.
It was because the offense hasn't changed enough.
It's because others are/were injured.
It's because Rodgers is/was injured.

Professional athletes are all faced with the same or similar problems. The Packers and Rodgers are not unique for any of the excuses listed above.
The truly great players overcome the obstacles that face them.
The truly great players make others around them better, not vice-versa.
Rodgers was that type of player for a lot of years.
Rodgers has not been that type of player on a consistent basis for the last four years or so. He has been at times, but not as consistently as previously.

Whether it is due to age, ego, accumulated injuries or whatever, I see no reason to expect a drastic turnaround from what we have seen in the last four years out of Rodgers. Rodgers can still be a significant net plus for the teams success, but he won't do it on his own. They will also need net plus contributions from the defense and special teams.

[pbmax]

I'd put more stock in this theory if in 2016 with another assortment of injuries the offense didn't rank 4th in points. And that was the year of the extended offense. It was all ARod (and Cook). DVOA had them 7th in passing and 5th in running success.

Approaches get schemed for, players get older and less effective. It requires adapting to make it work. The Packer, and Rodgers, have not adapted enough.

Though given M3's comments about play calls and getting open, its clear the disconnect was about execution of the original offense versus scheming players open in a way that is obvious pre snap.

I still side with Rodgers on this. And if you are in the camp that thinks Rodgers is permanently limited in some way, you should be in that camp as well.

[pbmax]

The problem I have with Rodgers comes down to progressions and accuracy.

I have no idea how to decide if accuracy is affected by his health or is simply in decline.

But he does seem unwilling to run a progression based offense at times when in his own half of the field and its killing his team, especially on third down.

[Rutnstrut]

The problem I have with Rodgers comes down to progressions and accuracy.

I have no idea how to decide if accuracy is affected by his health or is simply in decline.

But he does seem unwilling to run a progression based offense at times when in his own half of the field and its killing his team, especially on third down.



So that would point to ego/stat whoring?

[denverYooper]

So that would point to ego/stat whoring?

thrillseeking

[call_me_ishmael]

Great post Pattycakes. I 100% agree.

Peanut Butter, I agree with you that they need to run a progression based offense. It's time to become Tom Brady. The next coach needs to force the issue by blowing plays where the ball is not out in X seconds dead. How good would the Packers be if they ran a timing based, quick hitting hurry up offense? They'd be the best offense in the league. They glided through a premier D like the Bears in week one like a warm knife through room temperature butter.

[pbmax]

So that would point to ego/stat whoring?

No, incompletions don't help his stats unless you are convinced his reason for existence is his interception streak. Go back to 2015 and the end of 2016, his extended offense was the only thing working at times. He learned it was a way around the problems the base offense presented.

Prior to this season, imagine a typical, base offense series after the script. First down pass is dropped or defended. Second down run is stuffed for 2 yards. On 3rd and 7 or longer, pass pro is so good (and Rodgers is a unicorn in making it last longer than it should) you can dance around for 8 seconds and wait for someone to uncover. If you have to break the pocket, you can go for 10 seconds and throw over half of the field.

When pass pro doesn't work, you are injured or inaccurate, those throws on 3rd and 7 or longer are an even bet at best.

They have to break that habit, get back to better down and distance and lay off the low percentage stuff in their half of the field. They should still throw deep, but it shouldn't be the default.

[gbgary]

rodgers has been playing this way for quite a while...other than missing wide open guys. extending him never made sense to me with two years left and coming off a throwing-arm injury.

[texaspackerbacker]

More stupid shit from the ingrates and detractors of Aaron Rodgers

[mraynrand]

More stupid shit from the ingrates and detractors of Aaron Rodgers

And here's Tex with a quality, fact-based rebuttal. Pragmatic!

[mraynrand]

To be honest, this rehtoric about Janis, Abrederis, Rodgers, Adams etc. having to earn AR's trust before they can play is getting old. Coaches say it, AR says it, other players say it and the subject players themselves say it. It might be true, just as it is with other QBs, but it is starting to come across as if AR has the ultimate say over who plays and how much they play. It's almost like a three step process (playbook, coaches, AR) with AR being the final decision maker.

During one of Favre's later years, they had a season when WR after WR was injured. At one time or another something like 10 different WRs were on the roster and played. Not many had the chance to earn Favre's trust, but no one talked about that.

I can see where a team of 60 guys might have a bunch who feel AR is putting himself above the team with his comments.


I was commenting to my wife during the Bear's game (and she was doing everything she could to ignore me) that Rodgers has to stop with the 'you need to be in this exact spot' crap and just throw to his receivers. Several routes, including a TD to EQ, Cobb and prbably a late TD to Scantling were there if you throw to the receiver and not to whatever spot you think they ought to be in. In at least two cases, I saw Rodgers making that pattern running motion with his hand. But really, you look back at those plays and the receivers got open and Rodgers could have just thrown to them instead of 'a spot.' Another area for improvement if only the Packers can find a coach who has experience correcting the errors of an older set-in-his-ways QB.

[Smidgeon]

I was commenting to my wife during the Bear's game (and she was doing everything she could to ignore me) that Rodgers has to stop with the 'you need to be in this exact spot' crap and just throw to his receivers. Several routes, including a TD to EQ, Cobb and prbably a late TD to Scantling were there if you throw to the receiver and not to whatever spot you think they ought to be in. In at least two cases, I saw Rodgers making that pattern running motion with his hand. But really, you look back at those plays and the receivers got open and Rodgers could have just thrown to them instead of 'a spot.' Another area for improvement if only the Packers can find a coach who has experience correcting the errors of an older set-in-his-ways QB.

Pretty sure that's what rookies do. They throw when they see the receiver open. By the time the ball arrives, the window is closed. Don't you by necessity have to throw to a spot? You throw before the break, etc.

[mraynrand]

Pretty sure that's what rookies do. They throw when they see the receiver open. By the time the ball arrives, the window is closed. Don't you by necessity have to throw to a spot? You throw before the break, etc.

I don't think so. Rodgers' egregious overthrows were all to receivers who had already made their breaks before he threw the ball. Just play catch better and you have big plays. But Rodgers can't do it this year, for whatever reason (hurt, tank, old, ??)

[red]

I don't think so. Rodgers' egregious overthrows were all to receivers who had already made their breaks before he threw the ball. Just play catch better and you have big plays. But Rodgers can't do it this year, for whatever reason (hurt, tank, old, ??)

too often we see a-rod looking at a WR, and the WR looking at a-rod. then a-rod throws a ball 20 yards away from the WR and then we see rodgers lecturing the WR about running the wrong route

if he would just throw the ball at the WR, a good chunk of our problems are gone

[Bossman641]

I sometimes wonder if the offense has too many route adjustments built into it. That's the only thing that would make sense in regards to hearing how the wrs need to get on the same page with Rodgers. Rather then scheme guys open with route combinations, did MM and Rodgers create an offense where everyone needs to read everything exactly the same?

[pbmax]

I sometimes wonder if the offense has too many route adjustments built into it. That's the only thing that would make sense in regards to hearing how the wrs need to get on the same page with Rodgers. Rather then scheme guys open with route combinations, did MM and Rodgers create an offense where everyone needs to read everything exactly the same?

This is true and how a new offense helps immediately. The original Rodgers offense were tweaks to get receivers open against adjustments to the basic plays of the offense.

Extended offense grew out of that and the no huddle.

[pbmax]

We do forget that the original two complaints against Rodgers as QB (skipping his earliest preseason games) were happy feet and holding the ball too long.

He's regressed in some interesting ways.

[Bossman641]

Some interesting stats in this article. Much more effective throwing to Adams/Cobb/Allison then the new guys.

https://www-acmepackingcompany-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.acmepackingcompany.com/platform/amp/by-the-numbers/2018/12/18/18146580/aaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.acmepackingcompany.com% 2Fby-the-numbers%2F2018%2F12%2F18%2F18146580%2Faaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season

[mraynrand]

"Everything in this offense requires elite precision or the play isn’t going to work."

MAYBE RODGERS JUST WON'T THROW THE CLOSELY CONTESTED BALL TO THE YOUNGER GUYS.

"He also expects them to win contested catch situations, something Graham hasn’t done since he arrived in Green Bay and a trait Valdes-Scantling just isn’t strong enough to possess at this point in his career."

MAYBE STOP THROWING PASSES AT GRAHAM'S KNEES

[Pugger]

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/21/green-bay-packers-how-wide-receivers-build-trust-aaron-rodgers/1696072002/

[beveaux1]

Some interesting stats in this article. Much more effective throwing to Adams/Cobb/Allison then the new guys.

https://www-acmepackingcompany-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.acmepackingcompany.com/platform/amp/by-the-numbers/2018/12/18/18146580/aaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.acmepackingcompany.com%2Fb y-the-numbers%2F2018%2F12%2F18%2F18146580%2Faaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season

Doesn't surprise me. I've noticed all season that he's been accurate with Adams, Cobb, Allison, and Kendricks. Not nearly as accurate with the rookies. Ok with Graham. Kendricks and Graham have done him no favors with their hands. He's done them no favors with the deep ball.

Still not convinced the rookies have the ability to progress. I'd love to see a WR drafted in the first 3 rounds.

[call_me_ishmael]

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1075232870602563584

ARod is the least accurate QB in the league this year. That's insane.

[gbgary]

Some interesting stats in this article. Much more effective throwing to Adams/Cobb/Allison then the new guys.

https://www-acmepackingcompany-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.acmepackingcompany.com/platform/amp/by-the-numbers/2018/12/18/18146580/aaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.acmepackingcompany.com%2Fb y-the-numbers%2F2018%2F12%2F18%2F18146580%2Faaron-rodgers-accuracy-problems-mike-mccarthy-davante-adams-chemistry-2018-season

well...they're probably going to part ways with cobb (which i don't think they should...he's 28) so he's only going to have more untrustworthy people around him. he's just going to have to get that BS out of his head. open is open.

[Bossman641]

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1075232870602563584

ARod is the least accurate QB in the league this year. That's insane.

Not sure I'd tie accuracy to competition %. Rodgers has like double the amount of throwaways of anyone else and a lot of low % downfield shots.

[mraynrand]

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1075232870602563584

ARod is the least accurate QB in the league this year. That's insane.


"EQ, you had a step and a half on your defender in the Endzone, but I threw it 5 yards further inside because you didn't accurately interpret my Chisanbop hand signal in 300microseconds at the LOS."

"MVS, you beat your guy deep by three strides, but I didn't put any air under the ball because you took an extra half stutter at the LOS and you should suffer the consequences of an imperfect route."

"Randall, you were wide open as I rolled right, but I overthrew you by 20 yards because I need to show the rookies that if you don't run perfectly precise routes, you don't get rewarded with an accurarte ball."

"Jimmy, I will start putting the ball high and in front of you when you stop rounding off patterns by 0.237 mm at the goal line. Otherwise, you'll get a contested back shoulder or knee level toss again."

[run pMc]

"EQ, you had a step and a half on your defender in the Endzone, but I threw it 5 yards further inside because you didn't accurately interpret my Chisanbop hand signal in 300microseconds at the LOS."

"MVS, you beat your guy deep by three strides, but I didn't put any air under the ball because you took an extra half stutter at the LOS and you should suffer the consequences of an imperfect route."

"Randall, you were wide open as I rolled right, but I overthrew you by 20 yards because I need to show the rookies that if you don't run perfectly precise routes, you don't get rewarded with an accurarte ball."

"Jimmy, I will start putting the ball high and in front of you when you stop rounding off patterns by 0.237 mm at the goal line. Otherwise, you'll get a contested back shoulder or knee level toss again."


LOL

Even if he's not as accurate with the newbies, the fact remains he has flat out missed/ignored reads and made some very inaccurate throws...and it's a season long thing. You can blame the rookies for some of it, but if he's so good at improvisation, why is he so inflexible about the how the route's run?

Rodgers is still an elite QB, but he has to change his ways, and Gute has to help him out.

[pbmax]

"Everything in this offense requires elite precision or the play isn’t going to work."

MAYBE RODGERS JUST WON'T THROW THE CLOSELY CONTESTED BALL TO THE YOUNGER GUYS.

"He also expects them to win contested catch situations, something Graham hasn’t done since he arrived in Green Bay and a trait Valdes-Scantling just isn’t strong enough to possess at this point in his career."

MAYBE STOP THROWING PASSES AT GRAHAM'S KNEES

He and Graham have gotten closer. The throws might be a little behind him but no longer at his bad knee.

I wonder if long throw to MVS was frustration he didn't take the route somewhere else? He saw him running somewhere else and just heaved it in frustration?

I have no idea how to explain that Cobb throw that someone posted a link to from Aaron Nagler on Twitter. I think he just might need a complete reboot. Shut him down, unplug from power, take out the battery and wait for an hour.

[Deputy Nutz]

Rodgers is an OCD asshole with a huge complex about himself having to be the smartest football player on the field. How can any of his receivers be on the same page as this guy? He has always been a stat driven guy and will protect his stats at all cost. He wants to throw touchdowns in the redzone because it makes his stats better. He only throws to wide open receivers because he refuses to risk throwing an interception, and god forbid if he does throw a pick he makes it known with body language that is was not his fault that it was the receivers fault.

[call_me_ishmael]

So is the coach killer actually gonna play this week? He says he is, but what's the upside?

[ThunderDan]

So is the coach killer actually gonna play this week? He says he is, but what's the upside?

The first part is so stupid. ARod and MM worked together for 11 years. More than any qb/coach in this era except Rapelessberger and Brady. You could argue ARod’s play may have saved MM from the hot seat numerous years.

Just R-E-L-A-X.

[Pugger]

So is the coach killer actually gonna play this week? He says he is, but what's the upside?

Coach killer? Nonsense. Stubby found a way to get canned all by himself.

One good thing about AR playing this week is he'll have more opportunities to work with the young WRs at game speed. If the game gets out of hand one way or another we can put Kizer in and get him some work in too.

[mraynrand]

Coach killer? Nonsense. Stubby found a way to get canned all by himself.

I disagree only on the point that Stubbers had help getting canned. His ouster was engineered. To me, the only mystery (even though people have floated ideas) is why they signed him to an extension. Like Sherman in 2005, they should have just fired him along with Ted Thompson. It's OK to fire people if you're ready to head in a new direction.

[Bossman641]

I don't buy the argument of getting more reps with the young wrs. Get together on your own time in the offseason for that. Losing is more important at this time.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't buy the argument of getting more reps with the young wrs. Get together on your own time in the offseason for that. Losing is more important at this time.

Losing AND keeping the highest paid player in the NFL healthy for next year.

[Bossman641]

Double post

[pbmax]

The first part is so stupid. ARod and MM worked together for 11 years. More than any qb/coach in this era except Rapelessberger and Brady. You could argue ARod’s play may have saved MM from the hot seat numerous years.

Just R-E-L-A-X.

A coach with a faltering offense, terrible special teams and regularly pathetic but occasionally average D?

Nope. All the QB's fault.

[pbmax]

I disagree only on the point that Stubbers had help getting canned. His ouster was engineered. To me, the only mystery (even though people have floated ideas) is why they signed him to an extension. Like Sherman in 2005, they should have just fired him along with Ted Thompson. It's OK to fire people if you're ready to head in a new direction.

That covers the last year.

Do believe he engineered his own ouster before that?

[mraynrand]

That covers the last year.

Do believe he engineered his own ouster before that?

I think Stubby's responsible for his own demise, but they shoulda canned him last year. I think they engineered his ouster this year. It's easier to fire a guy who loses two years in a row. But in fairness to Stubby, he had help getting canned from TT handing him a lot of marginal talent. Oh well, that's water under the bridge. Here's hoping we have good GM personnel to draft/bring in great talent and find another great coach.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

That covers the last year.

Do believe he engineered his own ouster before that?

Yes. NFC Title game @ the Seafags. In 3rd quarter, ran 3 straight times out of GOALLINE formation in his OWN territory! Should’ve just punted on 1st down.

Plus, McDummy’s lack of accountability came back to bite the Packers in their rear ends in the clutch in that game. See Bostick.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Rodgers is an OCD asshole with a huge complex about himself having to be the smartest football player on the field. How can any of his receivers be on the same page as this guy? He has always been a stat driven guy and will protect his stats at all cost. He wants to throw touchdowns in the redzone because it makes his stats better. He only throws to wide open receivers because he refuses to risk throwing an interception, and god forbid if he does throw a pick he makes it known with body language that is was not his fault that it was the receivers fault.

Good post. But what the fuck is OCD?

[pbmax]

I think Stubby's responsible for his own demise, but they shoulda canned him last year. I think they engineered his ouster this year. It's easier to fire a guy who loses two years in a row. But in fairness to Stubby, he had help getting canned from TT handing him a lot of marginal talent. Oh well, that's water under the bridge. Here's hoping we have good GM personnel to draft/bring in great talent and find another great coach.

Agreed.

Talent drain aside, I think there was more to wring out of the defenses than Capers did. I really believe in the idea that it was a terrible mismatch between front office and coordinator. A good question would be was the talent drain on the defensive side unusual for a winning team or about the same as other good teams? I bet it was about the same PLUS some regrettable decisions in hindsight to let people go.

Not to mention whatever miracle cure Shields found in CA for his migraines. Why you aren't taking that seriously in GB is beyond me. Not to say its legit or will actually mitigate damage, but seems interesting in the least.

And McCarthy never insisted on developing a way to solve the issue. Peppers was the only thing that helped. I am not talking about a dominating defense. Just an average one. Though I am not sure that was possible in pass D in 2016.

His offense was stalling and he and the QB had reached the end of their rope. QB wasn't helping as much as he could.

And special teams had no excuse left.

By the end, despite everyone being competent, it was a house of cards.

[RashanGary]

I see Rodgers developing into a stubborn primadonna. Favre got to the point where he wouldn’t do offseason work, then expected everyone to cater to him because he was the great Favre. Rodgers won’t be coached now because he’s the great Rodgers and why should he!?

Ugh!! Here we go again!

[Radagast]

Is Rodgers not attending OTAs? Is the Rodgers/LaFleur controversy real or is the media making this all up to get ratings/sell papers/etc.? All too often a negative story gets more attention than the truth. Also if the story is not true and no one steps up to say any different, then the untruth gets believed more.

I don't believe any trouble exist between GB's QB and GB's HC. If Rodgers has been absent, then all have accepted it. I don't however believe that he will miss any time at TC this season. Sometimes we just don't get the inside story about what has/is happening.

Now, if any of you know the whole truth, please inform me and any others that may have missed out on the story. Is there a story or is the media manufacturing a story?

[texaspackerbacker]

Radagast, I'm getting to like you. Good job of countering the latest round of media trouble stirred up about our GOAT QB.

[theeaterofshades]

This is all a nothing burger. LaFleur has said he needs to come up with an audible option. The offense was designed as being specific with alignments, personnel, formations, motions, etc. Prior to this, they have had journeymen/young QBs in this system. Definitely no-one the callibur of Aaron in the driver's seat. It is still early in the team learning the offense. They are wanting to keep it straight forward as written now to evaluate players and plays. Improvising will come later.

[gbgary]

Is Rodgers not attending OTAs? Is the Rodgers/LaFleur controversy real or is the media making this all up to get ratings/sell papers/etc.? All too often a negative story gets more attention than the truth. Also if the story is not true and no one steps up to say any different, then the untruth gets believed more.

I don't believe any trouble exist between GB's QB and GB's HC. If Rodgers has been absent, then all have accepted it. I don't however believe that he will miss any time at TC this season. Sometimes we just don't get the inside story about what has/is happening.

Now, if any of you know the whole truth, please inform me and any others that may have missed out on the story. Is there a story or is the media manufacturing a story?

there's clearly not trouble between them but there IS a problem that Rodgers himself describes and the coach confirmed (so it's not media driven or manufactured). why did rodgers even bring it up?

[texaspackerbacker]

there's clearly not trouble between them but there IS a problem that Rodgers himself describes and the coach confirmed (so it's not media driven or manufactured). why did rodgers even bring it up?

You know this how? Because some media pukes say so?

[mraynrand]

You know this how? Because some media pukes say so?

https://wonderfulengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/brick-wallpaper-36.jpg

LOOK. IT. UP.

[MadScientist]

You know this how? Because some media pukes say so?

Jesus H Tex, these are from actual quotes from MLF and Rodgers
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001033990/article/lafleur-rodgers-navigating-gap-between-system-qbs-freedom?campaign=Twitter_atn

Stop bitching about actual reporters reporting documented happenings. This isn't just some columnist's opinion. Learn the fucking difference between the two. If you refuse to accept actual reports, then you may as well fuck off until preseason games start because pretty much everything piece of information we get now come via reporters.

[Radagast]

there's clearly not trouble between them but there IS a problem that Rodgers himself describes and the coach confirmed (so it's not media driven or manufactured). why did rodgers even bring it up?


As I interpret this, Rodgers has apparently been studying the new playbook and has simply discovered a problem that he and HC LaFleur agree needs to be addressed. Rodgers, like QBs for decades, knows that the ability change a play at the line of scrimmage is essential. Changing the play can avoid getting clobbered by a defense that is obviously set to pounce or to take advantage of a defensive set with a play designed to gain /score.

I'm confident that working together, both will develop audible solutions to fit the offensive sets and the game situation. EX: Instead of an off tackle run, a screen play that takes advantage of 1 or 2 out of position defensive players.

I don't believe setting up an audible system will be too difficult, but getting everyone working on the same page may be a challenge.

However like the man said,"no worries mate." :tup:

[texaspackerbacker]

Jesus H Tex, these are from actual quotes from MLF and Rodgers
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001033990/article/lafleur-rodgers-navigating-gap-between-system-qbs-freedom?campaign=Twitter_atn

Stop bitching about actual reporters reporting documented happenings. This isn't just some columnist's opinion. Learn the fucking difference between the two. If you refuse to accept actual reports, then you may as well fuck off until preseason games start because pretty much everything piece of information we get now come via reporters.

I say again, ya'all know this how? Have you heard in their own voice LaFleur or Rodgers say anything troublesome? Or is it just some asshole of the fake news media claiming they said things? I went to your link, and there's nothing controversial at all in their own words. These media pukes are spewing it, and some of ya'all are just lapping it up.

[Radagast]

I say again, ya'all know this how? Have you heard in their own voice LaFleur or Rodgers say anything troublesome? Or is it just some asshole of the fake news media claiming they said things? I went to your link, and there's nothing controversial at all in their own words. These media pukes are spewing it, and some of ya'all are just lapping it up.


Hey Tex, the subject is sports and not politics. Let's not allow one passion to overlap onto the other. The sports media is not the news media. Yes they do get caught sometimes embellishing their stories, but unlike the news, the sports media is subject hard statistics and a dependence upon not pissing off the sport they are covering.

Yes there is a real story, however it is in my opinion not the sensational story that the media likes to feast upon. Also, at this time of the year, stories are difficult to come by and reporters will sometimes blow it up bigger than it truly is.

All is well with the Packers, but installing a new offensive system and getting the kinks out will I believe require a good deal of fan and team patience.

[mraynrand]

the sports media is subject hard statistics and a dependence upon not pissing off the sport they are covering.

Someone tell Scoops McGinn about this. He's pretty good on the former, but not so much the latter.

Still, I hate to object, but much of sports media is gossip and blather. That's just the truth.

[pbmax]

Someone tell Scoops McGinn about this. He's pretty good on the former, but not so much the latter.

Still, I hate to object, but much of sports media is gossip and blather. That's just the truth.

I would say its more conventional wisdom first, gossip and blather second, but I am not going to the mattresses over it.

[pbmax]

I say again, ya'all know this how? Have you heard in their own voice LaFleur or Rodgers say anything troublesome? Or is it just some asshole of the fake news media claiming they said things? I went to your link, and there's nothing controversial at all in their own words. These media pukes are spewing it, and some of ya'all are just lapping it up.

All are quote in the article. Neither participant has said they were misquoted.

M4: "Aaron and I have had some good talks, and we're going to have to talk a lot more -- and one thing we have to work through is the audible thing," LaFleur explained. "We're running a system I first picked up while working with Kyle (Shanahan) in Houston a decade ago, and we've never really had a quarterback who's had complete freedom to change plays at the line, because that's not really the way the offense is set up. But, I mean, this is Aaron Rodgers. He's had a lot of freedom to make those calls, and deservedly so. Now, how do we reconcile that, and get to a place where we put him in the best position to succeed?"

Rodgers: "It's a conversation in progress," Rodgers said when we spoke at his locker last Tuesday, punctuating his words with a short chuckle. "I don't think you want to ask me to turn off 11 years (of recognizing defenses). We have a number of check with mes and line-of-scrimmage stuff. It's just the other stuff that really not many people in this league can do.

"That's not like a humblebrag or anything; that's just a fact. There aren't many people that can do at the line of scrimmage what I've done over the years. I mean, obviously, Tommy (Brady) can do it, no doubt. Peyton (Manning) could do it. Drew (Brees) can do it. (Patrick) Mahomes will be able to do it. Ben (Roethlisberger) has called the two-minute for years. There are a few of us who've just done it; it's kind of second nature. And that's just the icing on the cake for what I can do in this offense."

M4: "I guess from what you consider the true standard of 'audibles,' you're right -- we have not had that," LaFleur said last Tuesday during a second conversation in his office. "Because, you know, we pride ourselves on having concepts that have answers for whatever. Now, it might not always be the best answer, but you have an answer. But when there are plays that are called that have maybe not a very good answer, we typically call two plays and we run one or the other, based upon the look that the defense is giving us. The quarterback chooses, and there are criteria: We try to teach him the criteria for why we would want this play over the other play."

[gbgary]

As I interpret this, Rodgers has apparently been studying the new playbook and has simply discovered a problem that he and HC LaFleur agree needs to be addressed. Rodgers, like QBs for decades, knows that the ability change a play at the line of scrimmage is essential. Changing the play can avoid getting clobbered by a defense that is obviously set to pounce or to take advantage of a defensive set with a play designed to gain /score.

I'm confident that working together, both will develop audible solutions to fit the offensive sets and the game situation. EX: Instead of an off tackle run, a screen play that takes advantage of 1 or 2 out of position defensive players.

I don't believe setting up an audible system will be too difficult, but getting everyone working on the same page may be a challenge.

However like the man said,"no worries mate." :tup:

you need to read the article too. the coach himself says there's no need to change the play because the offense is designed to have an answer for everything. rodgers simply has to run it. two-minute drill and scrambling aside, unless the opponents D only has 8 men on the field (lol), or some other glaring anomaly, there's no reason for rodgers to go off script. again, if goff can do it...

[texaspackerbacker]

Do you believe that shit just because some media asshole claims LaFleur or Rodgers said something? There's no controversy here despite what some want to fantasize. If LaFleur was as stupid as some in the media and some in here seem to think, I'm confident the Packers would not have hired him.

There is simply NOT gonna be any significant change away from the Packers offense riding Aaron Rodgers - what he can do with his arm, what he can do with his legs, and what he can do with his excellent judgment and decision making. Does anybody seriously think LaFleur is dumb enough or ego-driven enough to rock the boat on that? Yeah, I suppose some of ya'all do hahahaha. Hopefully the "new" offense will have a few wrinkles that get more open receivers, etc., but when it comes right down to it, it will be pass first, QB changing plays at times, and QB extending plays rather than just unloading it quick into coverage as some in here seem to want. I see where you said "scrambling aside"; Scrambling is what you do when the play breaks down due to heavy pass rush or receivers not getting open. And in the NFL in general and with the Packers in particular, that's most of the time.

[mraynrand]

I would say its more conventional wisdom first, gossip and blather second.

This is true.

The print people tend to be less of the jock sniffers than the TV people. Mooch is in a category all his own.

[Radagast]

you need to read the article too. the coach himself says there's no need to change the play because the offense is designed to have an answer for everything. rodgers simply has to run it. two-minute drill and scrambling aside, unless the opponents D only has 8 men on the field (lol), or some other glaring anomaly, there's no reason for rodgers to go off script. again, if goff can do it...

HC LaFleur or any Coach/HC worth a damn is not going to publicly say that anything is wrong with any part of their team. Privately though they and I know that no playbook is ever complete. There is always some additions/subtractions. Additionally, Rodgers and others likely will have good ideas that will fit the system for specific circumstances.

I'm aware that LaFleur has spent years along with others developing this system, but game plans are put together after a study of opposing teams are conducted. Changes are routinely planned, practiced, and used against opposing teams.

You need stop being an insufferable know it all and go milk your Bull. :whaa: .

[MadScientist]

Do you believe that shit just because some media asshole claims LaFleur or Rodgers said something? There's no controversy here despite what some want to fantasize. If LaFleur was as stupid as some in the media and some in here seem to think, I'm confident the Packers would not have hired him.

There is simply NOT gonna be any significant change away from the Packers offense riding Aaron Rodgers - what he can do with his arm, what he can do with his legs, and what he can do with his excellent judgment and decision making. Does anybody seriously think LaFleur is dumb enough or ego-driven enough to rock the boat on that? Yeah, I suppose some of ya'all do hahahaha. Hopefully the "new" offense will have a few wrinkles that get more open receivers, etc., but when it comes right down to it, it will be pass first, QB changing plays at times, and QB extending plays rather than just unloading it quick into coverage as some in here seem to want. I see where you said "scrambling aside"; Scrambling is what you do when the play breaks down due to heavy pass rush or receivers not getting open. And in the NFL in general and with the Packers in particular, that's most of the time.

I believe the media a shit ton more than I believe some idiot from Texas who has talked to none of the people involved and will only believe things he already agrees with. Also Rodgers has not the least bit of trouble calling bullshit if anything reported wasn't true.

What we want is for the receivers to be schemed open and for Rodgers to hit them before the defense has time to recover and get into position to make the play. That's the best plan for success, and keeping Rodgers upright. Also it was noted that some of scheme goes beyond a single play. So maybe in the first quart the play is an inside run that only gains 2 yards, but that sets up the third quarter with the exact same formation against the same defense a play action slant goes for 40. If Rodgers audibles the first play to a pass, they lose the big play later.

In the end, I don't care how this gets resolved, just as long as the Packers win. They haven't for the last two years, so they need to make changes.

[Joemailman]

you need to read the article too. the coach himself says there's no need to change the play because the offense is designed to have an answer for everything. rodgers simply has to run it. two-minute drill and scrambling aside, unless the opponents D only has 8 men on the field (lol), or some other glaring anomaly, there's no reason for rodgers to go off script. again, if goff can do it...

Yet there some games last year where Goff REALLY struggled. On days where the opposing defense has the upper hand, there is an advantage to having a QB who can adjust on the fly instead of just always running the play that is sent in. No offense, no matter how well designed, is gonna have an answer for everything every week. I'm not suggesting Rodgers having as much leeway as he had (or took) last year. However, when Rodgers walks up to the line, he has certain mental capabilities that most QB's don't have. It would be foolish not to find a way to utilize them.

[texaspackerbacker]

I believe the media a shit ton more than I believe some idiot from Texas who has talked to none of the people involved and will only believe things he already agrees with. Also Rodgers has not the least bit of trouble calling bullshit if anything reported wasn't true.

What we want is for the receivers to be schemed open and for Rodgers to hit them before the defense has time to recover and get into position to make the play. That's the best plan for success, and keeping Rodgers upright. Also it was noted that some of scheme goes beyond a single play. So maybe in the first quart the play is an inside run that only gains 2 yards, but that sets up the third quarter with the exact same formation against the same defense a play action slant goes for 40. If Rodgers audibles the first play to a pass, they lose the big play later.

In the end, I don't care how this gets resolved, just as long as the Packers win. They haven't for the last two years, so they need to make changes.

You don't think good-natured needling like the only actual Rodgers words in the link above amounts to contradicting stuff? I suspect he is amused by it all and doesn't even consider it worth seriously commenting on. Ditto that for LaFleur - better ways to spend his time, etc.

Sure, we all want "receivers to be schemed open and for Rodgers to hit them before the defense has time to recover". What I don't want - and I hope none of ya'all want - is for Rodgers to be like pretty much every other QB and rush to throw the ball when it is not nearly 100% safe. I also have, I suspect, greater trust in Rodgers than many of ya'all to determine what is and isn't safe and a good idea to throw - after all, no QB in football history has as good a record doing that as he does. Does anybody want to disagree with that? Or maybe claim he should throw more interceptions? Same thing on judgment about setting teams up for later plays ....... I trust him, and you know what? I bet LaFleur does too - even if some media pukes, etc. do not.

Sure, we all want the Packers to win, as they haven't for a couple of years ........ some people - incredibly to me, blame Rodgers for that not winning. Hopefully, we have a much improved supporting cast this year, and nobody will have anything to complain about.

I've been accused of being overly optimistic (how could anybody get that idea hahahaha?). However, one area where I am less positive about the Packers, past few years and probably even now: the offensive line. IMO, a LOT of the reason for extending plays and not doing things the way for example, the Rams did them was the pass rush getting in too quickly. Yeah yeah yeah, some say Rodgers is wrong not just getting rid of it, etc. I say hell no, that would result in the biggest negative of all, interceptions. Give Rodgers a better line, and he could be more like ya'all wish; Give Goff the Packers O Line, and he'd probably he dead.

[Fritz]

I think Tex is clearly a little over-the-top about Aaron Rodgers, who must shoulder some of the blame for the offense's problems last year - after all, as several posters said three years ago, Rodgers led a collection of nobodies to the playoffs every year, and if this is true, then why couldn't he do it last year?

On the other hand, Tex does have a point about sports media. This is a 24/7/365 operation, and fluff pieces about Kadon Holloday (or whatever his name is) will not get you as many clicks as an article that suggests the coach and HOF QB are or are going to be butting heads.

Look, this is all going to be a big adjustment for everyone. Rodgers has never worked with an NFL head coach not named Mike McCarthy, and Matt LeFleur has never been a head coach, and has never worked with a QB like Aaron Rodgers as a head coach, or as any kind of coach, for that matter. Matt Ryan is the closest he comes. Those of you who say the Packers will take three or four, or four of five, games to figure out the offense aren't looking at this realistically. This whole season is going to be a learning curve, and it won't be until next year, after another round of offseason learning and practicing and taking in of the offense that this thing will really get off the ground. To me, this is looking like an 8 -8 kind of year, what with the injuries that will come and all the new players and the new scheme. I think next year is their target year, and if it doesn't happen next year, we may be saying hello to the 1970's all over again. An aging HOF QB, a rudderless organization.

So let's hope this season is okay, lots of learning and respect gained for the new HC, and then next year they take the league by storm.

[texaspackerbacker]

I for one, enjoy reading what you call "fluff pieces" about rookies or whoever, and of course, I just hate the shitstorm of anti-Rodgers and other alarmist crap.

It's NOT gonna take the whole season; It's not gonna take even 4 or 5 games; LaFleur is gonna have the good sense to get on the Rodgers Train and ride it all the way to the Super Bowl. As for last season, even as great as Aaron Rodgers is, he couldn't get out there and play defense. He damn near did do the job of the O Line, though, with his escapability. The reason is season is gonna be GREAT right from the start is drastically improved defense.

I say we take the league by storm THIS year.

[mraynrand]

I for one, enjoy reading what you call "fluff pieces" about rookies or whoever

I never would have pegged you for a fluffer.

Wait, let me rephrase that...

[RashanGary]

I say we take the league by storm THIS year.


I’m excited for the defense. Savage and Amos have complimentary skill sets. Alexander is poised to be a star. King and Jackson should be improve in year 2 under pettine.

Martinez is poised for a big year. Burks and Woodson’s nephew should be better in year two.

Smith, Smith, Gary and Fackrell look to be a huge upgrade to the ever dinged up or injured Matthews and Perry.

DL looks to be strong again. Clark is a star. Daniels should have at least one more big year left in him. Lowry and Lancaster are solid players.

In Pettines second year, I really do love our chances.



If Rodgers follows the game plan and runs the ball, the offense should open up and simplify for Rodgers.

MVS in his second year and Allison are better than anything we had last year after Adams. EQ and Kumerow should be better than what we had too.

Taylor is recovered from his injury this year and so is Bulaga. Turner and Jenkins give is depth. Due to Taylor and Bulaga being 100% and the new blood, the IL looks improved.

Graham is healthy.

The running backs are hitting their prime.

If AR allows MLf to run the ball, the offense is poised to be better!

Crosby is Crosby. Scott will be better. Davis is in great shape, should be an excellent returner.



Across the board, i agree with you. It’s ARs stubborn unwillingness to run the ball that concerns me. That’s why I bumped this.

[run pMc]

Look, this is all going to be a big adjustment for everyone.
Fritz with the plea for sanity! I like it!

How many first time, first year HC's have taken teams deep into the playoffs? Yeah, they might be the exception, but history is not on their side.

[Joemailman]

Fritz with the plea for sanity! I like it!

How many first time, first year HC's have taken teams deep into the playoffs? Yeah, they might be the exception, but history is not on their side.

Packers have had 2 losing seasons in a row. They just need to start winning again. If they go 9-7 or 10-6 and barely miss the playoffs, I won't consider that a totally lost season. However, if they make the playoffs and are reasonably healthy (especially Rodgers), then the only logical goal is the Super Bowl.

[texaspackerbacker]

Hey Tex, the subject is sports and not politics. Let's not allow one passion to overlap onto the other. The sports media is not the news media. Yes they do get caught sometimes embellishing their stories, but unlike the news, the sports media is subject hard statistics and a dependence upon not pissing off the sport they are covering.

Yes there is a real story, however it is in my opinion not the sensational story that the media likes to feast upon. Also, at this time of the year, stories are difficult to come by and reporters will sometimes blow it up bigger than it truly is.

All is well with the Packers, but installing a new offensive system and getting the kinks out will I believe require a good deal of fan and team patience.

Who said anything about politics? Certainly not me. That's what FYI is for.

That doesn't change the fact, though, that there is nothing lower than media pukes, not even sports agents or lawyers.

Yeah, I suppose there is a story on some level - installing a few new things, players getting used to a new coach's style, etc. - but nothing controversial. That's just media shitheads trying to stir up trouble. Fan and team patience? I guess. The players, Aaron Rodgers in particular, seem to be joking around, even ridiculing the media assholes - example: the little video in the link above about LaFleur's injury. They all know this is much ado about nothing; It's just a few fans in here who don't seem to get it. You got it right about stories hard to come by in the off-season, but that doesn't excuse the assholes from stirring up bogus crap.

[texaspackerbacker]

I’m excited for the defense. Savage and Amos have complimentary skill sets. Alexander is poised to be a star. King and Jackson should be improve in year 2 under pettine.

Martinez is poised for a big year. Burks and Woodson’s nephew should be better in year two.

Smith, Smith, Gary and Fackrell look to be a huge upgrade to the ever dinged up or injured Matthews and Perry.

DL looks to be strong again. Clark is a star. Daniels should have at least one more big year left in him. Lowry and Lancaster are solid players.

In Pettines second year, I really do love our chances.



If Rodgers follows the game plan and runs the ball, the offense should open up and simplify for Rodgers.

MVS in his second year and Allison are better than anything we had last year after Adams. EQ and Kumerow should be better than what we had too.

Taylor is recovered from his injury this year and so is Bulaga. Turner and Jenkins give is depth. Due to Taylor and Bulaga being 100% and the new blood, the IL looks improved.

Graham is healthy.

The running backs are hitting their prime.

If AR allows MLf to run the ball, the offense is poised to be better!

Crosby is Crosby. Scott will be better. Davis is in great shape, should be an excellent returner.



Across the board, i agree with you. It’s ARs stubborn unwillingness to run the ball that concerns me. That’s why I bumped this.

Nice positive post! Only one line (actually two) in the whole thing I don't agree with. I bet you can't guess which that is hahahahahaha.

[gbgary]

You need stop being an insufferable know it all and go milk your Bull. :whaa: .

im not being a know-it-all. i'm simply repeating what the coach said. lol

[mraynrand]

im not being a know-it-all. i'm simply repeating what the coach said. lol

The coach needs to stop being a know-it-all and drink red bull.

[gbgary]

The coach needs to stop being a know-it-all and drink red bull.

lol...not in public without an endorsement deal. "the Official drink of Mensan Matt LeFleur."

[RashanGary]

I had a person tell me today, the reason Lovie smith said he didn’t allow Urlacher to call the plays, even though he was capable, is because he’d blitz himself on every play. Might explain some of the reason MM always said he planned to run more but it didn’t happen.

[RashanGary]

This is a little quote, Favre spent some time with Rodgers and he talks about how the offense should be built with Rodgers at QB



“So I think you let him play his game and not disturb that very much. And it’s going to be interesting to see if that happens”



​​​​​​​ apparently after Favre talked with Rodgers he came away wondering how that was going to play out too... hmmm!!!!


Is Favre a trouble making media puke, Tex? He seems to be questioning the power struggle too.

[mraynrand]

I’m mostly OK with Rodgers ‘playing his game’ but whatever that is exactly does require that all the other guys on offense can handle it too. It won’t work if they’re lost and don’t know what the hell is going on.

[texaspackerbacker]

This is a little quote, Favre spent some time with Rodgers and he talks about how the offense should be built with Rodgers at QB



“So I think you let him play his game and not disturb that very much. And it’s going to be interesting to see if that happens”



​​​​​​​ apparently after Favre talked with Rodgers he came away wondering how that was going to play out too... hmmm!!!!


Is Favre a trouble making media puke, Tex? He seems to be questioning the power struggle too.

Why would you ask that? Favre's take on what should happen is exactly the right one. Anybody with a lick of sense knows that - I assume that includes LaFleur.

Besides, just because the media says Favre said that doesn't necessarily mean he said it. Those pukes are a bunch of damned liars.

[texaspackerbacker]

I’m mostly OK with Rodgers ‘playing his game’ but whatever that is exactly does require that all the other guys on offense can handle it too. It won’t work if they’re lost and don’t know what the hell is going on.

That's the coaches' job - to make sure they do know.

[RashanGary]

Rodgers two biggest problems as I see it are overcomplicating the offense to the point where it takes skill players 3 or 4 years to be trusted and then the audibling out of runs so often that he makes life harder on himself and the offense as a whole.

I’m ok if Rodgers plays his game. But he should also look at improving the spots in his game that are holding him back from winning more games.

And it doesn’t surprise me Favre wants Rodgers to play his game whether it means winning or not. Favre slung guns whether or not it made sense because he was more about being himself than winning. Rodgers kind of has some of that, wanting to express himself more than he wants to win in a different way.

Coaches are more focused on winning than letting one player have his self expression show. That’s why there is a balance that needs to be struck. I’m more worried about Rodgers than Lafleur to be honest. Lafleur already is talking about adjustments he’s willing to make. One I hope Lafleur will not make is the amount we run the ball. Rodgers should have no say in how many times we run. Give him open creativity in the pass game, sure. A whole palate of pass plays to choose from, sure. But someone has to finally enforce discipline in the run geme. It’s killong our offense to run so sparingly. Rodgers needs to be stopped from controlling that aspect.

[mraynrand]

That's the coaches' job - to make sure they do know.

That's a deep insight, but it doesn't really address the issue.

[pbmax]

This is true.

The print people tend to be less of the jock sniffers than the TV people. Mooch is in a category all his own.

Mooch is still thinking like a veteran coach: where will my next job be at? Let's not piss anyone off unnecessarily.

[pbmax]

Someday, there will just be one quarterback, as they all merge into one performance brand conglomerate.


“Aaron will be fine,” Favre said. “I think that the thing is he needs to remain the same. And I don’t have to give him any advice. You know, he’ll handle it well. The question is, how will they handle it with him. And obviously, that’s very important. I mean, there’s more to the team than Aaron but we all have to admit that when he’s playing and playing well, which generally when he’s playing he is playing well, you don’t want to change what’s working. There’s other factors that you have to work on.

It doesn't necessarily bode well for the future, but I cannot tell you how thrilled I am that I have penetrated one of the deep mysteries of my youth. The QB-Team standoff.

I only wish this bit of wisdom was more widely useful.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/06/22/brett-favre-talks-comeback-bart-starr-and-aaron-rodgers-amfam-championship/1536352001/

[pbmax]

Someone tell Scoops McGinn about this. He's pretty good on the former, but not so much the latter.

Still, I hate to object, but much of sports media is gossip and blather. That's just the truth.

Speaking of Scoops, I just found out that the Packers have never credentialed him at his dot com firm. Same thing with CheeseheadTV.

[pbmax]

I think Tex is clearly a little over-the-top about Aaron Rodgers, who must shoulder some of the blame for the offense's problems last year - after all, as several posters said three years ago, Rodgers led a collection of nobodies to the playoffs every year, and if this is true, then why couldn't he do it last year?

Bum knee.

[Joemailman]

Rodgers two biggest problems as I see it are overcomplicating the offense to the point where it takes skill players 3 or 4 years to be trusted and then the audibling out of runs so often that he makes life harder on himself and the offense as a whole.

I’m ok if Rodgers plays his game. But he should also look at improving the spots in his game that are holding him back from winning more games.

And it doesn’t surprise me Favre wants Rodgers to play his game whether it means winning or not. Favre slung guns whether or not it made sense because he was more about being himself than winning. Rodgers kind of has some of that, wanting to express himself more than he wants to win in a different way.

Coaches are more focused on winning than letting one player have his self expression show. That’s why there is a balance that needs to be struck. I’m more worried about Rodgers than Lafleur to be honest. Lafleur already is talking about adjustments he’s willing to make. One I hope Lafleur will not make is the amount we run the ball. Rodgers should have no say in how many times we run. Give him open creativity in the pass game, sure. A whole palate of pass plays to choose from, sure. But someone has to finally enforce discipline in the run geme. It’s killong our offense to run so sparingly. Rodgers needs to be stopped from controlling that aspect.

The QB needs to have the ability to check out of a run. The reason is that there are late adjustments that a defense can make (Like a safety moving up to he line) that will doom a running play to failure but will provide an opportunity in the passing game. That doesn't mean that Rodgers can check out of a run any time he wants. If he does so, and it's not obvious why he did so, he needs to explain his reasoning. The key here is to have Rodgers and MLF thinking along he same lines, rather than MLF dictating to Rodgers or Rodgers defying MLF.

[RashanGary]

The QB needs to have the ability to check out of a run. The reason is that there are late adjustments that a defense can make (Like a safety moving up to he line) that will doom a running play to failure but will provide an opportunity in the passing game. That doesn't mean that Rodgers can check out of a run any time he wants. If he does so, and it's not obvious why he did so, he needs to explain his reasoning. The key here is to have Rodgers and MLF thinking along he same lines, rather than MLF dictating to Rodgers or Rodgers defying MLF.

Teams show 8 man boxes presnap for this reason. So the audibling is being neutralized and even taken advantage of. That’s why motioning and cluster formations are often times a better way to truly see what a defense is playing. It forces a defense to show its cards.

Another way to keep defenses honest is to balance pass and run.

We know Aaron can make a lot of audibles. He’s very good at it. But can he use some of the other tools as well. And can he commit to the run for its long term gain rather than falling for the presnap alignments defenses show him on every play?

I really believe there is much more depth to offense vs defense strategy than just trusting the defenses presnap look and audibling into the right play.

[RashanGary]

Teams caught onto ARs audible style a few years ago and he’s been less affective since. Let’s work on some new principles to keep his game ahead Of the defensive adjustments.

[mraynrand]

Speaking of Scoops, I just found out that the Packers have never credentialed him at his dot com firm. Same thing with CheeseheadTV.

Does it make any difference? Does he get a gold star on his belly?

[RashanGary]

It’s another reason why I believe Aaron Rodgers holds the ball so much. He and McCarthy chose to stay in those static formations and create probably the leagues most elaborate audible system to adjust for defensive personnel and alignment at the line of scrimmage. Defenses adjust by constantly disguising coverages. Once the ball is snapped, the perfectionist AR has to abandon his perfect play call because he called it for the defense he saw not the defense that ended up being played. He runs around and makes some plays. Injuries and sacks happen too.

Lafleur has a different style of offense. Rather than trusting a defenses pre snap look (and why should he, defenses are clever too) he opts to motion guys around to see how the defense realigns to the changing formations. Masking a defense is easier when the formation stays static. They just have to align once, stay disciplined through the snap count and then pounce post snap.

It requires a whole new level of discipline to continue to mask a coverage while the offense motions into and out of formations. Now the defense has to first align once in a mask. Then align a second and sometimes third time in the mask. And then have the discipline to wait until post snap to reveal anything. With so many rookies and 3rd, 4th, 5th string players playing in an NFL season, defenses are bound to mess it up much of the time.

Rodgers rarely does a quick snap unless he’s trying to get that 12th man penalty. He’s a perfectionist at the line, taking into account personnel, alignment and tendency in a short amount of time and then adjusting. Like I said, there was a time they become so good at it, they took the league by storm. But that time is passed. Lafleur likes the quick snap. It puts defenses off balance.

MM/AR created plays for specific defenses and then relied on Rodgers to get the right play for the right defense. A huge responsibility. Lafleurs creativity focuses on making plays that have solutions for a variety of defenses. If the defense was showing covet 1 and goes to cover 2, then follow this progression. In the event of cover 3 then this. In the event of quarters then that. The plays are more flexible to post snap defensive changes.

At the end of the day, AR loves changing the plays, even if the defense has him fooled with a mask and it doesn’t work,, he still wants to pick the play. When the playcall is wrong, AR loves that he can move around and make up for it. It’s his style. It’s what he wants to do. It’s what he loves. But!!!! There is room for growth! Honestly, if they just mixed in a few quick snaps and then ran the ball a few more times against presnap 8 man box looks, it would sprinkle some unpredictability into the game. McCarthy tried and AR refused to budge. Now it’s lafleurs turn to try. Is Aaron going to make the game plan all about him or is he gonna mix in some new concepts that are easier for him to implement and easier for the young players to execute and have the benefit of adding unpredictability to the play selection as well as more unpredictability with the snapcount.

Let’s face it, teams know Aaron is gonna audible out of a run if they show 8 man boxes. So they show 8 man boxes, then switch at the snap and pin their ears back as pass rushers knowing Aaron will not call a run into that look. It makes us predictable. If the defense didn’t mask, Aaron has the perfect play and it’s all about him. If they do mask, Aaron makes some plays with his legs and it’s still all about him. And then the several times he gets sacked, and the lack of run game, well, that doesn’t count cuz look at his “stats.” So he wants to call the play even if it’s predictable and then make the play. It’s all about him. I’m not a fan. It’s become an ego game of Aaron vs the world. Yuck!

[RashanGary]

Winston Moss called it out after last seasons debacle. Someone has to stop Aaron Rodgers. He’s become bigger than the team.

[RashanGary]

And for the record, I was a Favre hater before it was cool to be a Favre hater. I was calling out his antics when he was just skipping OTAs and the off-season programs and had his own private locker room. I said Sherman should have never allowed that. It did make sending him his locker during the retirement he faked so he could skip the offseason program that much funnier though.

I’ve talked the last couple years about Rodgers stubbornness at the line of scrimmage and refusal to run. Now I’m getting louder because he’s about to run Lafleur out of town before he even gets a chance.

[texaspackerbacker]

Seriously? LaFleur will not be run out of town because he will see the wisdom of going along with having Rodgers audible out of runs a large part of the time. They will use LaFleur's motion and presnap stuff, and hopefully it will open up receivers a little better and/or confuse the defense. However, running more would be a mistake, and discouraging Rodgers from extending plays would be a mistake. Thus, I don't expect LaFleur to do those things. Furthermore, I suspect all of this was discussed and settled before he ever signed on to come to the Packers.

[pbmax]

I had a person tell me today, the reason Lovie smith said he didn’t allow Urlacher to call the plays, even though he was capable, is because he’d blitz himself on every play. Might explain some of the reason MM always said he planned to run more but it didn’t happen.

Re-watch the Seattle playoff game and get back to me.

Or Fail Mary game.

I understand Rodgers and McCarthy were at odds, especially in these last few years but McCarthy being locked into one mode of play calling and later regretting it is the theme of his tenure.

[pbmax]

Teams show 8 man boxes presnap for this reason. So the audibling is being neutralized and even taken advantage of. That’s why motioning and cluster formations are often times a better way to truly see what a defense is playing. It forces a defense to show its cards.

The third sentence is true.

But the first sentence makes no sense to me. Teams don't always show 8 man boxes presnap to the Packers since Lacy's second year, if then. Except for maybe last year, team's don't dare the Packers to throw. Quite the opposite.

[pbmax]

Another way to keep defenses honest is to balance pass and run.


The threat of pass and run keeps defenses honest. Balancing them in actual attempts just depresses your score.

You keep the threat of the run alive, do it when its to your advantage, otherwise passing is advantageous.

Even if the defense tilts against the pass, if you are good, it still might be to your benefit to pass. Vastly more productive.

[pbmax]

Lafleurs creativity focuses on making plays that have solutions for a variety of defenses. If the defense was showing covet 1 and goes to cover 2, then follow this progression. In the event of cover 3 then this. In the event of quarters then that. The plays are more flexible to post snap defensive changes.

This offense isn't an option route offense. La Fleur himself has said there is an answer if they don't get the anticipated defense. Its called a check down in most cases, in others it might be a crossing route. Not some other elaborately option routed play, that isn't what he does. Its the check down. And its no different than any other offense: read the D, if you see X, go here. If you see Y, go here.

Now Rodgers and McCarthy didn't learn to love check downs until the offense first stalled in 2015. And then the offense got shorter and shorter and shorter until it was a collapsed dwarf star. This was a failure of the late version of the Packer offense as they should have benefitted more from throwing short occasionally rather than bombs away on the sidelines (for the purposes of this discussion, I am ignoring his first year starting where there were a LOT of check downs).

The problem with check downs is down and distance. You need first downs and teams (like the Packers) LOVE it when you throw the check down. And when the TEs are Graham and Lewis, and the RB is Williams, I am not convinced they will convert enough YAC for enough first downs.

Aaron Jones might, but he is one guy who probably doesn't need his workload increased.

You can make this offense work if the running game is humming and putting you in good down and distance. But you need something else when behind or trying to score late.

[RashanGary]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

[Joemailman]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

You're being selective on what Moss was saying. Moss said "Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period! I think he was saying that MM had lost control of the whole team, not just Rodgers.

There are 2 ways to look at the current situation. One is that Rodgers is not a good fit for this offense. The other is that Rodgers has the ability, with some adjustments by both him and LaFleur, to execute this offense better than anyone has before him.

[RashanGary]

It could go well. I hope it does! And I’ll be happy to admit I’m wrong too! As much of a stubborn mule as I can be with what I’m seeing, I’m very quick to admit I’m wrong when I’m shown to be wrong. And I hope I am here!

[mraynrand]

Re-watch the Seattle playoff game and get back to me.

You’re a cruel man.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You’re a cruel man.

I was at the Seattle playoff game. Grant fumbled twice in the first quarter. McCarthy wasn’t one to preach accountability, so he didn’t drag Grant by the facemask into a doghouse. Fat man sent Grant right back into the fray.

Packers fell 0-14 but ended up routing the Seagulls 40-something in a snow storm. Favre had a nice game. Grant rebounded like Dennis Rodman going after a rebound. Game was also Atari Bigby’s coming out party.

The next week, Favre threw his last pass as a Packer. I think some Giant named Cory Webster caught it. Took me two months to get over that game. Even skipped the Super Bowl.

In hindsight, Todd pretty much doomed the 2007 season from the get go - and Favre’s Packer career - with his failure to trade a 4th and some cocky backup QB named Rodgers to Oakland for Rand Moss.

[mraynrand]

Narrator: “Randy Moss lost to the same team that beat the Packers and doesn’t have a ring like Stubby and Todd”

[pbmax]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

He was very good about not airing dirty laundry. He was not very good about sticking with the run except for the Ryan Grant first stint in ZBS and Eddie Lacy's first two years. And funny how Aaron Jones, once he got into the lineup, was getting 20 touches a game. Almost as if he stuck with the run when he trusted it.

Rodgers didn't audible out of those runs over the years. McCarthy did teach Rodgers to seek out single coverage and beat it to death.

And the coach, before the 2016 season that started with a good batch of offensive futility, stated publicly that they had been doing too much scheming in 2015 to get guys open and they needed to get back to fundamentals and win one on one matchups. Nothing could be further from the Shanahan-McVay offense than that statement.

And be careful with no check downs. The entire offense was check downs beginning with the great offensive slowdown in 2015 and then Nelson's injury. The extended offense was the only saving grace. If I never see another flat/slant throw to a slow TE on the flat route it will be too soon.

Rodgers did spend too much time trying to get something deep, but at times in the last few years, that WAS the offense.

I think there was the normal QB coach give and take, probably sliding in Rodgers favor up through 2014 and his second MVP. Then the relationship was torpedoed with the 2015 offensive disaster. Relatively speaking of course, as the defense could be so much worse.

[pbmax]

You’re a cruel man.

I actually turn off all TVs in the house if I see it being replayed according to the on screen TV guide. I don't want any accidental exposure.

[pbmax]

I was at the Seattle playoff game. Grant fumbled twice in the first quarter. McCarthy wasn’t one to preach accountability, so he didn’t drag Grant by the facemask into a doghouse. Fat man sent Grant right back into the fray.

Packers fell 0-14 but ended up routing the Seagulls 40-something in a snow storm. Favre had a nice game. Grant rebounded like Dennis Rodman going after a rebound. Game was also Atari Bigby’s coming out party.

The next week, Favre threw his last pass as a Packer. I think some Giant named Cory Webster caught it. Took me two months to get over that game. Even skipped the Super Bowl.

In hindsight, Todd pretty much doomed the 2007 season from the get go - and Favre’s Packer career - with his failure to trade a 4th and some cocky backup QB named Rodgers to Oakland for Rand Moss.

Wrong Seattle game.

[mraynrand]

I actually turn off all TVs in the house if I see it being replayed according to the on screen TV guide. I don't want any accidental exposure.

What a world, what a world!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQJ8WrKnLUs

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Wrong Seattle game.

You're talking about the game where the D forced something like 5 turnovers, McCarthy was even more conservative than Barry Alvarez and the usually stoic J-Nel committed a monstrous deed that demeaned stoicism - Nelson, for the first and only time in his football career, chewed out a teammate during a game?

Some incompetent polar bear kept Bostick on roster that season, I believe.

[pbmax]

You're talking about the game where the D forced something like 5 turnovers, McCarthy was even more conservative than Barry Alvarez and the usually stoic J-Nel committed a monstrous deed that demeaned stoicism - Nelson, for the first and only time in his football career, chewed out a teammate during a game?

Some incompetent polar bear kept Bostick on roster that season, I believe.

Exactly. According to Justin, Rodgers would never allow McCarthy to call all those runs into 10 man boxes.

I mean never allow. Didn't happen. You are confused if you think it did. Rodgers is a monster and won't listen.

[RashanGary]

In the name of looking at things with a clear and open mind, I saw a stat that MVS had the second highest percentage of targets with over a step of separation and Davante had the 4th.

I do think that has a some to do with each player respectively, but it also has a lot to do with Aaron Rodgers knowing where the open guy is and getting the ball there. Because it’s two players in the top 4 from one team, I’m gonna credit Rodgers with this more than the receivers. A part of that is being in the right play for the defensive call. .

Rodgers is a great player and has strengths to his game. Favre was a great player and had strengths to his game. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t trouble spots and I do like to keep my mind open to seeing them.

On top of that, I might be wrong about Rodgers stubbornness and difficulty to coach. But I might also be right.

[pbmax]

On top of that, I might be wrong about Rodgers stubbornness and difficulty to coach. But I might also be right.

And I agree that he can be stubborn. Way too often he's looking deep and waiting when a check down would do. But what is required is a situation specific choice. Take a half to pick your spots perhaps.

You need to score in a hurry or break a defense that is jamming everything up close? Let Rodgers be Rodgers.

Need a 10 play, 85 yard drive for a score to help a) the team, b) the defense, c)message board sanity? Nothing wrong with a 7 yard a play drive. Run it, throw to the backside off the stretch run, check down. All good baby.

I just don't think you can be a high functioning offense with just one side of the equation.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I just wish Rodgers would be more relatable to the average fan. I mean take a dick pic or something like that, sheesh.

[mraynrand]

I just wish Rodgers would be more relatable to the average fan. I mean take a dick pic or something like that, sheesh.

He could be more relatable if he'd stop getting every answer correct in the 'Potent Potables' category on Jeopardy for chrissakes.

"To make a sea breeze mix 2 parts vodka 3 parts grapefruit juice & 1 part this juice-- for the red color"

[Zool]

He could be more relatable if he'd stop getting every answer correct in the 'Potent Potables' category on Jeopardy for chrissakes.

"To make a sea breeze mix 2 parts vodka 3 parts grapefruit juice & 1 part this juice-- for the red color"

What is grenadine

[mraynrand]

What is grenadine

This is why you will never be a HOF QB.

[ThunderDan]

This is why you will never be a HOF QB.

What is cranberry juice?

[mraynrand]

What is cranberry juice?

you control the board, Mr. HOF QB.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.buzzfeed.com%2Fbuzzfeed-static%2Fstatic%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr06%2F2013%2F5%2F 9%2F22%2Fenhanced-buzz-11208-1368153230-0.jpg&f=1

[RashanGary]

MMQB did some digging. Sounds like they’re going to go with Lafleurs double call system where Rodgers will run one or the other as a starting point. It’s a system that allows for faster pace and less communication at the LOS. Lindsey will make the line calls.

In the event that something is shown where the two plays don’t work, Rodgers can adjust further.

It sounds like Lafleur wants to keep his fast paced system moving when possible. Now all we can do is see how it plays out.

The full audible system was hard for receivers and tight ends to be on the same page with Rodgers. Now that they’re doing both systems, I wonder how hard that is going to be for everyone to work with. It sounds like a challenging offense to play in.

[MadScientist]

MMQB did some digging. Sounds like they’re going to go with Lafleurs double call system where Rodgers will run one or the other as a starting point. It’s a system that allows for faster pace and less communication at the LOS. Lindsey will make the line calls.

In the event that something is shown where the two plays don’t work, Rodgers can adjust further.

It sounds like Lafleur wants to keep his fast paced system moving when possible. Now all we can do is see how it plays out.

The full audible system was hard for receivers and tight ends to be on the same page with Rodgers. Now that they’re doing both systems, I wonder how hard that is going to be for everyone to work with. It sounds like a challenging offense to play in.

They will have to simplify the audible system because it shouldn't have to be used often, and there won't be a lot of time to dedicate to it in practice.

[Zool]

https://i.imgur.com/3S3rtNu.jpg

[Radagast]

They will have to simplify the audible system because it shouldn't have to be used often, and there won't be a lot of time to dedicate to it in practice.

As I understand it, QBs and Coaches use a huge screen video with the QBs practicing in real time to make those decisions that they should see on the field during upcoming games. I'm sure that any "bugs" will get worked out and any changes will get drilled into rest of the offense at team/position meetings. Let's not forget that the Packers are professionals and will have their collective s--t in one sock.

[pbmax]

Is this MMQB non link the actual SI joint now run by Albert Breer or Peter King on PFT?

BTW, King to PFT rivals AOL buying Time Warner for ridiculousness?

[Joemailman]

Is this MMQB non link the actual SI joint now run by Albert Breer or Peter King on PFT?

BTW, King to PFT rivals AOL buying Time Warner for ridiculousness?

Breer

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/06/24/jameis-winston-marcus-mariota-2019-season-contract-year?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_source=twitter.com


1. After a little digging around, here’s the best way I can explain where the Packers are on who-calls-what-gate: They’re working on it. For the last few years, Aaron Rodgers has pretty much total freedom to change what he’s wanted to (which did create friction with the old staff), set protections and improvise on the fly. Conversely, Matt LaFleur’s system, as we’ve written here in the past, is built to take all of that off the quarterback’s plate, in an effort to get the quarterback playing fast. So the spring, for the coaches and Rodgers, was about meshing the two. One example: Guys from the Sean McVay/Kyle Shanahan tree have become acquainted with what’s called the “double call.” The idea is for the coach to give the quarterback two calls, and a read to make the decision on which one is in on a given play. It’s great for younger quarterbacks, because it simplifies another element of the game, and safeguards them against snapping the offense into a bad call. Rodgers, on the other hand, has become accustomed to getting a play call and adjusting as he sees fit from there. So how will the Packers marry those two? As I understand it, the plan is to go with the double-call, while giving Rodgers the freedom to adjust past that. Similarly, as those systems have entrusted protection calls to the center (again, to get the quarterback faster), the Packers will train Corey Linsley to manage that area of the game, with Rodgers having power to make corrections. The hope here, of course, would be to get the best of both worlds—giving Rodgers the option, but not the obligation, to make changes on the fly, getting him playing faster on some snaps, while taking advantage of his knowhow on others. So let’s see how that works before we go crazy either way. It’d seem to have pretty good potential.

[pbmax]

I confess I think that it’s possible Breer talked to no one of import on this because none of this is new or news.

Linsley and the Guards have made line calls forever. Remember that video of Rodgers asking “where are we going?” as he put his hands under center?

McCarthy had the double play call.

The real question is what Rodgers does when the defense has sniffed the play out. Does he audible to an old play call, a new play call or let the soldiers charge the reinforced line.

The other unknown here is how early LaFleur wants him at the LOS in order to diagnose the defense over the radio pre snap. I think this one goes by the wayside.

[gbgary]

it would be a colossal mistake to bring in a coach, a completely different offense (that's dynamic and successful) and keep playing the stupid way they have been. the new O is designed to play fast, get the ball out quickly, make everyone a weapon, and keep the D off balance. it's not handcuffing rodgers. he won't need to "audible out of a run" ffs. everything's predicated off the D's reaction to the situation and the O's motion. there should be a lot less pressure on rodgers and the o-line. goff was sacked 16 fewer times than rodgers last year. he was better than rodgers in almost every catagory. outside of the two-minute o, scrambling (because he or someone else didn't do their job), or the defense doing something completely stupid pre-snap, rodgers shouldn't
go off-script, and i don't want to see it otherwise. it's not just rodgers being defiant, he'd be encouraging it from others...undermining MLF, proving he's uncoachable, and making the whole new-coach/offense process a waste of time...when there isn't any to waste. might as well have kept mccarthy.

[gbgary]

The real question is what Rodgers does when the defense has sniffed the play out. Does he audible to an old play call, a new play call or let the soldiers charge the reinforced line.

The other unknown here is how early LaFleur wants him at the LOS in order to diagnose the defense over the radio pre snap. I think this one goes by the wayside.
if they sniff something out then the O didn't execute or the wrong solution was chosen. both will get better with increased reps. i think the pre-snap diagnosis, at least the availability of it, will always be there. unless league mandated why would they let that go? it's invaluable.

[RashanGary]

I’m a fan of the New England Offense. They beat you by doing all the simple things better than anyone else. I’ve seen entire half’s of football where all Brady does is hand the ball off, throw short passes and dump the ball off in the flat. Play after play after play, he never seems to get bored just managing the game. Obviously when it comes time to make a play, part of Brady’s charm is he makes it. But New England or Tom Brady don’t go out of their way looking to make a certain kind of play. They take what’s given to them. Over. And over. And over.

Aaron Rodgers is an all time great. Just like Favre before him, he has his own spectacular style. And that’s cool. I appreciate it, and I’ll always be an Aaron Rodgers fan. BUT!!! When it comes to winning football games, his unwillingness to do some of the really simple, easy things that maybe don’t get glory, but move the chains.... it annoys me that he refuses to do some of the basics. Same way Favreea interceptions annoyed me.

[RashanGary]

When it comes to Favre and Rodgers, they’re equals to me. Favre was addicted to throwing into tight spaces and showing off his arm talent. Rodgers is addicted to the deep ball and showing off how smart he is. Both won a Super Bowl. Both HOF passers. Both ego driven. Favre did dump the ball off, hand it off and do simple shit. Eventually he had to take his reckless shot but 90% of the time he was just right. Aaron is super safe with the ball but refuses to take the easy yards so it’s feast or famine.

Brady makes far less spectacular plays than either of them. When I watch Brady, I think of the greatest game manager I’ve ever seen. And obviously he’s more than that. He’s accurate deep, medium or shallow. His pace and game awareness is amazing. He kind of does everything well. But he’s the greatest game manager because he’ll just dump the ball off 7 times in a row if that’s what they’re giving. If Rodgers had that humble, do the simple things well, mentality, the Packers night have a couple Super Bowls.

[RashanGary]

Another part of Brady’s charm is their offense looks so much simpler. They get to the line, everyone knows their job. It’s not a big communication circus where Brady is changing everything around. He gets there, everyone’s on the same page and he pushes pace by keeping it simple. It’s like death by a thousand paper cuts watching them kill their opponent. They make very few mistakes because their offense is simple. They just execute. I’m glad I got to watch Favre and Rodgers, but the greatest of my life crown goes to Tom Brady. Not even close.

[RashanGary]

And I thought Rodgers was gonna learn from the Favre stubbornness and rise to a new level. He ended up succumbing a different style, but same general personality flaw of having “bigger than the team” egoism. It’s too bad.

[pbmax]

it would be a colossal mistake to bring in a coach, a completely different offense (that's dynamic and successful) and keep playing the stupid way they have been. the new O is designed to play fast, get the ball out quickly, make everyone a weapon, and keep the D off balance. it's not handcuffing rodgers. he won't need to "audible out of a run" ffs. everything's predicated off the D's reaction to the situation and the O's motion. there should be a lot less pressure on rodgers and the o-line. goff was sacked 16 fewer times than rodgers last year. he was better than rodgers in almost every catagory. outside of the two-minute o, scrambling (because he or someone else didn't do their job), or the defense doing something completely stupid pre-snap, rodgers shouldn't
go off-script, and i don't want to see it otherwise. it's not just rodgers being defiant, he'd be encouraging it from others...undermining MLF, proving he's uncoachable, and making the whole new-coach/offense process a waste of time...when there isn't any to waste. might as well have kept mccarthy.

Remind me how the Atlanta Super Bowl ended? How'd that offense fare in the second half?

Kinda the same as the Rams in the last Super Bowl?

How did this offense do without Garapolo in San Fran last year?

No offense is designed to need to be saved on a play. Yet defenses stop offenses a fair amount. It doesn't matter how good the design is, defenses are good at their job.

[pbmax]

I’m a fan of the New England Offense. They beat you by doing all the simple things better than anyone else. I’ve seen entire half’s of football where all Brady does is hand the ball off, throw short passes and dump the ball off in the flat. Play after play after play, he never seems to get bored just managing the game. Obviously when it comes time to make a play, part of Brady’s charm is he makes it. But New England or Tom Brady don’t go out of their way looking to make a certain kind of play. They take what’s given to them. Over. And over. And over.


1. If all you need to do is execute the simple play, why doesn't Brian Schottenheimer's offense work better?

2. That offense looks far more pedestrian without Gronk.

3. New England goes VERY out of its way to make a certain play against a certain look. They want to see the defense and then exploit its vulnerability. They don't line up and simply expect to win each 1 on 1 matchup (unless its Gronk). The entire offense is designed to stress a defense at multiple points and that does include a short passing game.

[RashanGary]

1. If all you need to do is execute the simple play, why doesn't Brian Schottenheimer's offense work better?

2. That offense looks far more pedestrian without Gronk.

3. New England goes VERY out of its way to make a certain play against a certain look. They want to see the defense and then exploit its vulnerability. They don't line up and simply expect to win each 1 on 1 matchup (unless its Gronk). The entire offense is designed to stress a defense at multiple points and that does include a short passing game.

If Brady had an ego complex where he wanted big play glory and control of the offense, he could be much more than a game manager. And there are always a few plays a game where a perfect throw is needed and that guy is great and makes those throws. But the great majority of his snaps are game management type snaps. That’s what I appreciate most about Brady. He does all the simple things to damn near perfection and plays a game that would bore the great Favre or his highness Aaron. It’s worked well for him.

[pbmax]

If Brady had an ego complex where he wanted big play glory and control of the offense, he could be much more than a game manager. And there are always a few plays a game where a perfect throw is needed and that guy is great and makes those throws. But the great majority of his snaps are game management type snaps. That’s what I appreciate most about Brady. He does all the simple things to damn near perfection and plays a game that would bore the great Favre or his highness Aaron. It’s worked well for him.

Why is it everyone backpedals to the ego claim when all other arguments have failed?

What you call ego is offensive design, largely.

Please see 2016 offense again. When the ONLY offense available was his extended play offense. This was after 2 years of big offensive slowdowns and creeping shortness of routes. When asked about the fix for such things, prior to the start of 2016, the head coach said we need to do less scheming and more winning one on one battles.

When this offense tried to go short, it sputtered. The slowdowns in 2014, especially 2015 and the beginning of 2016 featured a TON of short routes that went nowhere. Just think about Dick Rod on a flat route. Really think about it fits into your narrative. I want you to think about why your ego mad QB kept throwing that stupid, failed, miserable route to Richard Rodgers. That route took 3 years off red's life expectancy. Who wanted that fu**ing route run?

Think about the WR bubble screens. Ego or offensive design? Those took 2 years off my life expectancy.

Sure, Rodgers will throw 4 deep passes more than Brady in a game on 3rd and short. When the offense had overwhelming talent outside, it worked like no one's business. When that talent edge started the crumble, the offense started to fail and that shot play cost them dearly at times. But it needed to work because it was the entire basis of the offense at that point.

That isn't ego. That is problematic design. Even when he was young and was the check down king, this offense never specialized in long, multi-play drives.

The McCarthy offense thrived on going deep and getting offenses into dime packages so it could run. When the deep passing game failed, it all started to come apart.

[pbmax]

There is a story about Michael Bay and a possible explanation of why his movies are a visual mess.

He is apparently a fan of other directors and specifically falls in love with certain shots they construct. He then imports those shots and frames into his movies. But it makes for a hodge-podge visual experience. Think about the end of Armageddon, the touchdown and the emotional, triumphant reunion of the drillers and their families. Its an emotional moment.

And in the middle of that moment, you get a military jet flyover (in formation I think). Completely different emotion. And the shot is a tracking shot overhead, kinda like the jet shots in the original Hawaii 5-0 opening credits. Its jarring and impressive and takes you away from the people in the scene. Puts the entire celebration on hold. Something that makes zero logical sense since this seems like a very impromptu celebration. It doesn't play into the emotion or pace of the scene, but its a tremendously arresting visual.

This shot happens right after Liv Tyler breaks from a pack of NASA and military folks to greet Ben Affleck. That moment is done pretty well, even if it plays a bit happy while you and everyone in the scene know that Dad, Bruce Willis, is now space debris. That is really giving away the bride. It might have been a missing man fountain, meant as a salute to Harry as Billy Bob Thornton and William Fichtner share kind words with Tyler about her father. But it doesn't play well without any transition.

So this great idea, pulled from another movie and individually brilliant, makes zero sense imported as it was into this movie. Would make far more sense for that flyover to happen during the parade later, right?

Mike McCarthy is Michael Bay. He had lots of neat ideas in his favorite play call list. But the whole of the offense never worked well together once they had a talent drop off. Things did not build off each other. It was all 1 on 1. The run game and the passing game were not connected except by numbers in the box. It got stale and the new elements weren't enough to re-open the base plays of the offense that everyone learned to subdue. He never adjusted to playing with lesser talent and making their job easier on the LOS. Because of the shortcomings of this offense, his QB invented a second offense. And that meant that young receivers were really behind the eight ball.

That is Michael Bay's failure, not Ben Affleck's.

[Fritz]

There is a story about Michael Bay and a possible explanation of why his movies are a visual mess.

He is apparently a fan of other directors and specifically falls in love with certain shots they construct. He then imports those shots and frames into his movies. But it makes for a hodge-podge visual experience. Think about the end of Armageddon, the touchdown and the emotional, triumphant reunion of the drillers and their families. Its an emotional moment.

And in the middle of that moment, you get a military jet flyover (in formation I think). Completely different emotion. And the shot is a tracking shot overhead, kinda like the jet shots in the original Hawaii 5-0 opening credits. Its jarring and impressive and takes you away from the people in the scene. Puts the entire celebration on hold. Something that makes zero logical sense since this seems like a very impromptu celebration. It doesn't play into the emotion or pace of the scene, but its a tremendously arresting visual.

This shot happens right after Liv Tyler breaks from a pack of NASA and military folks to greet Ben Affleck. That moment is done pretty well, even if it plays a bit happy while you and everyone in the scene know that Dad, Bruce Willis, is now space debris. That is really giving away the bride. It might have been a missing man fountain, meant as a salute to Harry as Billy Bob Thornton and William Fichtner share kind words with Tyler about her father. But it doesn't play well without any transition.

So this great idea, pulled from another movie and individually brilliant, makes zero sense imported as it was into this movie. Would make far more sense for that flyover to happen during the parade later, right?

Mike McCarthy is Michael Bay. He had lots of neat ideas in his favorite play call list. But the whole of the offense never worked well together once they had a talent drop off. Things did not build off each other. It was all 1 on 1. The run game and the passing game were not connected except by numbers in the box. It got stale and the new elements weren't enough to re-open the base plays of the offense that everyone learned to subdue. He never adjusted to playing with lesser talent and making their job easier on the LOS. Because of the shortcomings of this offense, his QB invented a second offense. And that meant that young receivers were really behind the eight ball.

That is Michael Bay's failure, not Ben Affleck's.



So if Michael Bay is Mike McCarthy and Ben Affleck is Aaron Rodgers, who is Liv Tyler?

[MadScientist]

Why is it everyone backpedals to the ego claim when all other arguments have failed?

What you call ego is offensive design, largely.

Please see 2016 offense again. When the ONLY offense available was his extended play offense. This was after 2 years of big offensive slowdowns and creeping shortness of routes. When asked about the fix for such things, prior to the start of 2016, the head coach said we need to do less scheming and more winning one on one battles.

When this offense tried to go short, it sputtered. The slowdowns in 2014, especially 2015 and the beginning of 2016 featured a TON of short routes that went nowhere. Just think about Dick Rod on a flat route. Really think about it fits into your narrative. I want you to think about why your ego mad QB kept throwing that stupid, failed, miserable route to Richard Rodgers. That route took 3 years off red's life expectancy. Who wanted that fu**ing route run?

Think about the WR bubble screens. Ego or offensive design? Those took 2 years off my life expectancy.

Sure, Rodgers will throw 4 deep passes more than Brady in a game on 3rd and short. When the offense had overwhelming talent outside, it worked like no one's business. When that talent edge started the crumble, the offense started to fail and that shot play cost them dearly at times. But it needed to work because it was the entire basis of the offense at that point.

That isn't ego. That is problematic design. Even when he was young and was the check down king, this offense never specialized in long, multi-play drives.

The McCarthy offense thrived on going deep and getting offenses into dime packages so it could run. When the deep passing game failed, it all started to come apart.

That TE rout was a perfectly fine play, but the Packers had a pile of shit TE who couldn't run. MM & co should have given up on that after 1 or 2 tries.

The thing that we were seeing was that after the quick routes weren't there, Rodgers only bothered with the extended plays. Defenses adjusted and the extended plays weren't there anymore, and that opened up some of the quick, short plays, but Rodgers didn't seem to be looking for them anymore.

[gbgary]

Remind me how the Atlanta Super Bowl ended? How'd that offense fare in the second half?

Kinda the same as the Rams in the last Super Bowl?

How did this offense do without Garapolo in San Fran last year?

No offense is designed to need to be saved on a play. Yet defenses stop offenses a fair amount. It doesn't matter how good the design is, defenses are good at their job.

no question and you're talking about two super bowl teams, one with basically a rookie at qb, who were stopped by a defensive genius. you could also say those teams were their own worst enemies in those games. can you imagine this O with a compliant rodgers? it should be great. too bad he's not in late 20's with a friendly contract.

[RashanGary]

Pb, I guess we see it differently. I see Rodgers overrode and ignore MMs plan. So I see it as Rodgers trying to be bigger than common sense. Not as McCarthys system ignoring 1/3 of the field.

[RashanGary]

It was never McCarthys plan for Favre to throw into triple coverage. It’s not McCarthys plan for Rodgers to ignore 1/3 of the field, and hold the ball until a receiver has two full yards of separation. And I don’t believe it was ever McCarthys plan to pass 70% of the snaps. But here we are. New coach, same problem.

[Upnorth]

I still maintain that anyone who thinks a qb is thinking about there ego when they are scrambling needs to re-evaluate how people react under short high intense pressure situations.
Even at the extreme 7 seconds the qb does not have ego enter in. Bullriders `win`when they hit 8 seconds, of which their first priority is stay the fuck alive followed by form that they have practiced since they were teens. Just like a qb. Absolutely no time for ego, the human brain is not wired for ego in high adrenaline situations.

[run pMc]

I think it's fair to say M3 and Rodgers didn't see eye-to-eye on the offense and playcalling.
I also think it's fair to say that Rodgers has a pretty strong interest in giving MLF a shot and not being labelled a coach-killer. If MLF limits what Rodgers can audible out of, that's ok with me. I don't know that I like the articles where they are supposedly trying to mash an offense together based on Rodgers ad-libbing and MLF's playbook.

All the stories about MLF and Rodgers that I've read at this point seem like outside the building speculation, and we'll have a good idea by the time Week 4 rolls around and they've played CHI, MIN, and DEN -- all very good defenses.

[pbmax]

So if Michael Bay is Mike McCarthy and Ben Affleck is Aaron Rodgers, who is Liv Tyler?

I prefer Olivia Munn, but I suppose its been recast as Danica Patrick.

[pbmax]

Pb, I guess we see it differently. I see Rodgers overrode and ignore MMs plan. So I see it as Rodgers trying to be bigger than common sense. Not as McCarthys system ignoring 1/3 of the field.

How often did this occur before the run the table in 2016?

[pbmax]

Here is the crucial question:

When and how did McCarthy's offense die an unexpected death?

In 2012, there was a drop off after the record breaking offense of 2011. But they scored 433 points, so doesn't seem that terrible.

In 2013, someone got hurt. Offense still scored 417 point. I think most of that was against Detroit.

In 2014, MVP year. Odd year. Wasn't there a slow start and he came on? 486 points. Not much slowdown, but I think there were signs.

In 2015, offense was a mess even with JJ back to help replace Nelson. 368 points. This was tough, whatever plan there was went out the window when Nelson got hurt.

In 2016, the run the table year. Rodgers pulled a LOT of games out late and the offense was a mess for half the year. Getting Cook back helped. None of the offense that worked seemed like McCarthys.

In 2017, QB injury, no Scott Tolzien or Matt Flynn, 320 points.

In 2018, QB injury but keeps playing, 376 points. Starting QB paying but results like his injury year of 2013.

[pbmax]

Rodgers games under 100 QB rating (I don't think that mark is particularly menaingful, I just want to remember some games where the offense struggled)




Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass
Rk Player Date Opp Result G# Day Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Sk Yds Y/A AY/A
1 Aaron Rodgers 2012-09-09 SFO L 22-30 1 Sun 30 44 68.18 303 2 1 93.3 3 24 6.89 6.77
2 Aaron Rodgers 2012-09-13 CHI W 23-10 2 Thu 22 32 68.75 219 1 1 85.3 5 31 6.84 6.06
3 Aaron Rodgers 2012-09-24 SEA L 12-14 3 Mon 26 39 66.67 223 0 0 81.5 8 39 5.72 5.72
4 Aaron Rodgers 2012-10-28 JAX W 24-15 8 Sun 22 35 62.86 186 2 0 95.7 2 14 5.31 6.46
5 Aaron Rodgers 2012-11-04 ARI W 31-17 9 Sun 14 30 46.67 218 4 1 96.9 1 10 7.27 8.43
6 Aaron Rodgers 2012-11-25 NYG L 10-38 11 Sun 14 25 56.00 219 1 1 81.9 5 29 8.76 7.76
7 Aaron Rodgers 2012-12-02 MIN W 23-14 12 Sun 27 35 77.14 286 1 1 98.0 2 3 8.17 7.46
8 Aaron Rodgers 2012-12-09 DET W 27-20 13 Sun 14 24 58.33 173 0 0 80.7 3 25 7.21 7.21\

9 Aaron Rodgers 2013-09-22 CIN L 30-34 3 Sun 26 43 60.47 244 1 2 64.5 4 27 5.67 4.05
10 Aaron Rodgers 2013-10-13 BAL W 19-17 5 Sun 17 32 53.13 315 1 1 84.8 3 17 9.84 9.06
11 Aaron Rodgers 2013-11-04 CHI L 20-27 8 Mon 1 2 50.00 27 0 0 95.8 1 3 13.50 13.50
12 Aaron Rodgers 2013-12-29 CHI W 33-28 16 Sun 25 39 64.10 318 2 2 85.2 3 5 8.15 6.87

13 Aaron Rodgers 2014-09-04 SEA L 16-36 1 Thu 23 33 69.70 189 1 1 81.5 3 14 5.73 4.97
14 Aaron Rodgers 2014-09-21 DET L 7-19 3 Sun 16 27 59.26 162 1 0 88.8 2 15 6.00 6.74
15 Aaron Rodgers 2014-10-12 MIA W 27-24 6 Sun 24 42 57.14 264 3 0 99.7 3 16 6.29 7.71
16 Aaron Rodgers 2014-10-26 NOR L 23-44 8 Sun 28 39 71.79 418 1 2 93.7 3 19 10.72 8.92
17 Aaron Rodgers 2014-12-14 BUF L 13-21 14 Sun 17 42 40.48 185 0 2 34.3 1 10 4.40 2.26

18 Aaron Rodgers 2015-10-04 SFO W 17-3 4 Sun 22 32 68.75 224 1 0 99.0 3 24 7.00 7.63
19 Aaron Rodgers 2015-10-11 STL W 24-10 5 Sun 19 30 63.33 241 2 2 82.8 2 5 8.03 6.37
20 Aaron Rodgers 2015-11-01 DEN L 10-29 7 Sun 14 22 63.64 77 0 0 69.7 3 27 3.50 3.50
21 Aaron Rodgers 2015-11-08 CAR L 29-37 8 Sun 25 48 52.08 369 4 1 96.6 5 38 7.69 8.42
22 Aaron Rodgers 2015-11-15 DET L 16-18 9 Sun 35 61 57.38 333 2 0 83.6 3 8 5.46 6.11
23 Aaron Rodgers 2015-11-22 MIN W 30-13 10 Sun 16 34 47.06 212 2 0 86.9 2 16 6.24 7.41
24 Aaron Rodgers 2015-11-26 CHI L 13-17 11 Thu 22 43 51.16 202 1 1 62.4 2 14 4.70 4.12
25 Aaron Rodgers 2015-12-03 DET W 27-23 12 Thu 24 36 66.67 273 2 1 96.2 3 27 7.58 7.44
26 Aaron Rodgers 2015-12-13 DAL W 28-7 13 Sun 22 35 62.86 218 2 0 99.5 2 13 6.23 7.37
27 Aaron Rodgers 2015-12-20 OAK W 30-20 14 Sun 22 39 56.41 204 1 1 68.8 2 14 5.23 4.59
28 Aaron Rodgers 2015-12-27 ARI L 8-38 15 Sun 15 28 53.57 151 1 1 66.2 8 70 5.39 4.50
29 Aaron Rodgers 2016-01-03 MIN L 13-20 16 Sun 28 44 63.64 291 1 1 80.8 5 17 6.61 6.05

30 Aaron Rodgers 2016-09-11 JAX W 27-23 1 Sun 20 34 58.82 199 2 0 95.1 1 0 5.85 7.03
31 Aaron Rodgers 2016-09-18 MIN L 14-17 2 Sun 20 36 55.56 213 1 1 70.7 5 33 5.92 5.22
32 Aaron Rodgers 2016-10-09 NYG W 23-16 4 Sun 23 45 51.11 259 2 2 65.0 0 0 5.76 4.64
33 Aaron Rodgers 2016-10-16 DAL L 16-30 5 Sun 31 42 73.81 294 1 1 90.8 1 0 7.00 6.40
34 Aaron Rodgers 2016-11-06 IND L 26-31 8 Sun 26 43 60.47 297 3 1 94.8 3 8 6.91 7.26
35 Aaron Rodgers 2016-11-13 TEN L 25-47 9 Sun 31 51 60.78 371 2 2 79.8 5 46 7.27 6.29
36 Aaron Rodgers 2016-12-18 CHI W 30-27 14 Sun 19 31 61.29 252 0 0 87.0 4 27 8.13 8.13

37 Aaron Rodgers 2017-09-10 SEA W 17-9 1 Sun 28 42 66.67 311 1 1 86.5 4 25 7.40 6.81
38 Aaron Rodgers 2017-09-17 ATL L 23-34 2 Sun 33 50 66.00 343 2 1 90.7 3 35 6.86 6.76
39 Aaron Rodgers 2017-10-15 MIN L 10-23 6 Sun 2 4 50.00 18 0 0 62.5 0 0 4.50 4.50
40 Aaron Rodgers 2017-12-17 CAR L 24-31 14 Sun 26 45 57.78 290 3 3 71.5 3 26 6.44 4.78


Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&player_id_hint=Aaron+Rodgers&player_id_select=Aaron+Rodgers&player_id=RodgAa00&idx=players&year_min=2012&year_max=2017&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos%5B%5D=QB&is_starter=E&game_type=R&career_game_num_min=1&career_game_num_max=400&qb_start_num_min=1&qb_start_num_max=400&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&c1stat=pass_rating&c1comp=lt&c1val=99.9&c5val=1.0&order_by=game_date&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#results)
Generated 6/28/2019.

[hoosier]

Here is the crucial question:

When and how did McCarthy's offense die an unexpected death?

In 2012, there was a drop off after the record breaking offense of 2011. But they scored 433 points, so doesn't seem that terrible.

In 2013, someone got hurt. Offense still scored 417 point. I think most of that was against Detroit.

In 2014, MVP year. Odd year. Wasn't there a slow start and he came on? 486 points. Not much slowdown, but I think there were signs.

In 2015, offense was a mess even with JJ back to help replace Nelson. 368 points. This was tough, whatever plan there was went out the window when Nelson got hurt.

In 2016, the run the table year. Rodgers pulled a LOT of games out late and the offense was a mess for half the year. Getting Cook back helped. None of the offense that worked seemed like McCarthys.

In 2017, QB injury, no Scott Tolzien or Matt Flynn, 320 points.

In 2018, QB injury but keeps playing, 376 points. Starting QB paying but results like his injury year of 2013.

2015 @ Denver

[pbmax]

2012 was a struggle at times. They were 5-3 when he was under 100 PR. He worst was 80 versus Detroit.

2013 Four games under 100 PR. Worst was Cincy game, a Zimmer defensive special. Though some Bretsky disciple hurt the QB in November and he was out after 2 passes. 2-2 in these games that year.

2014 MVP year that featured 5 games under 100 PR. But only Buffalo was a tire fire. 2 of these games he was 90+. Seattle was the culprit in the second worst 81 PR game. In a possible sign the team is more QB dependent that ever, team is 1-4 in these games.

If you are like me, you are seeing some signs of the offense getting creaky, but I understand if you do not. The talent drain was full on though. Finley and JJ were gone. Nelson is about to get hurt and never really be the same.

2015 In games under 100 PR, team was 6-6. 4 games under 70 PR, 4 games over 90. Injuries wrecked this offense but they were still 10-6 and competitive. And if McCarthy has more than one 2 point conversion play he liked (remember Janis was hurt) the Packers are in the Championship game. This offense had no business going that deep.

For all the crap Capers deservedly takes, his defenses in 2012, 2015 and 2016 were playing well enough at the end to do some playoff damage if the offense could maintain. It couldn't.

2016 MVP caliber season, run the table, only Matt Ryan's marvelous year (in a Shanny Jr. offense) kept the QB off the award podium. 3-4 with the QB under 100. The only tire fire was the Giants at 65.

2017 Recorded 1-3 when under 100 PR but this was the Barr hit year and he wasn't right after returning and Carolina was the game that demonstrated it.

Scott Kacsmar makes an argument that Rodgers has been showing signs of decline since 2012, with his net yards per attempt really trending down.

But to me the evidence in chronological order is periodic slowdowns that looked different that anything in 2009 and 2010 starting in 2012 and continuing against good defenses through 2015. Remember the trouble they had with Zimmer, San Fran and Seattle (who they eventually solved). It all comes to a head with injuries wrecking the offense in 2015 and the team still going 10-6. That to me is the key, as McCarthy's solution, the short passing game, was a disaster and only heroics saved that offense.

And those heroics also saved the 2016 season and nearly got him another MVP.

Did he learn some bad traits on the way? Yes. But McCarthy never got his base offense on track again after the 2015 debacle.

[pbmax]

2015 @ Denver

Brutal game. That was a tough defense though.

[SudsMcBucky]

it would be a colossal mistake to bring in a coach, a completely different offense (that's dynamic and successful) and keep playing the stupid way they have been. the new O is designed to play fast, get the ball out quickly, make everyone a weapon, and keep the D off balance. it's not handcuffing rodgers. he won't need to "audible out of a run" ffs. everything's predicated off the D's reaction to the situation and the O's motion. there should be a lot less pressure on rodgers and the o-line. goff was sacked 16 fewer times than rodgers last year. he was better than rodgers in almost every catagory. outside of the two-minute o, scrambling (because he or someone else didn't do their job), or the defense doing something completely stupid pre-snap, rodgers shouldn't
go off-script, and i don't want to see it otherwise. it's not just rodgers being defiant, he'd be encouraging it from others...undermining MLF, proving he's uncoachable, and making the whole new-coach/offense process a waste of time...when there isn't any to waste. might as well have kept mccarthy.

Only problem is LaFleur didn't coach Goff last year.

[run pMc]

Did he learn some bad traits on the way? Yes. But McCarthy never got his base offense on track again after the 2015 debacle.

pb, I'm coming around to that...going off the data. If you play with your data table you'll see the number of games with Rodgers having QB rating < 90 goes up starting in 2015. A QB's numbers are impacted by so many other things (deflected/dropped balls, bad OL, poor surrounding talent, etc.) that it's hard to point to one thing, but it's interesting to note and consider.

http://pfref.com/tiny/pcUkF

(Interesting note: Rodgers had a bunch of games in 2010 w/ rating under 90, but they also had a monster defense -- best scoring D and best point differential in the NFC -- to lean on. I still recall the 9-0 NYJ game.)


I also wonder if the 2014 SEA-Bostick heartbreak game and the way M3 called it had something to do with Rodgers going into 2015 and beyond...

[RashanGary]

2015 OL of Bakhtiari/Sitton/Lindsey/Lang/Bulaga was pretty good.

[RashanGary]

2015 was also the year Richard Rodgers had the second most receptions in a season by a Packers TE in team history. He was the Packers second leading receiver after Cobb. Yikes. Not a good year for the skill positions.

[pbmax]

(Interesting note: Rodgers had a bunch of games in 2010 w/ rating under 90, but they also had a monster defense -- best scoring D and best point differential in the NFC -- to lean on. I still recall the 9-0 NYJ game.)
.

I don't know. Especially hard with two injury years coming up to compare.

His second highest number of sub 100 PR games was 2012.

[gbgary]

Only problem is LaFleur didn't coach Goff last year.

ugh...but goff did play the same O system.

[pbmax]

ESPN Demovsky: https://t.co/p24qwBCgBM

I really hope it works out and that Rodgers is not just in this for comfortable surroundings. Because right now Matt La Fleur is being kicked around in the messaging department.

I kinda miss Holmgren in this department. Homgren didn't have much more control of Favre once he started winning MVPs, but at least he made a good show of it.

[mraynrand]

ESPN Demovsky: https://t.co/p24qwBCgBM

I really hope it works out and that Rodgers is not just in this for comfortable surroundings. Because right now Matt La Fleur is being kicked around in the messaging department.

I kinda miss Holmgren in this department. Homgren didn't have much more control of Favre once he started winning MVPs, but at least he made a good show of it.


I'd be more convinced everything was going to work out had they watched Jeopardy together and Flower skunked him on "Teams that start with 'Green Ba'"

[pbmax]

I'd be more convinced everything was going to work out had they watched Jeopardy together and Flower skunked him on "Teams that start with 'Green Ba'"

Holmgren would have made Favre come to GB to watch the games. I think.

Later, Sherman and Ted would visit Brett in Miss. I assume they road in a trailer behind his lawnmower.

But in the latter cases with both QBs, I do get a strong Roger Dorn vibe.

[mraynrand]

“I want Parkman” = “I’m checking out of this 3rd and 1 run for the extended play bomb”

[pbmax]

PFF Sam

On passes that were aimed 15 yards or more down field last season, Aaron Rodgers had 35 big time throws by PFF's grading scale, and just ONE turnover worthy play.

That's an absurd ratio.
Tom Brady was 24-10.

If only this guy was any good at running his own plays.

[pbmax]

Why is Tom Brady so selfish about turning the ball over to get a big play?