THE COLLAPSE OF THE OFFENSE--WHO IS AT FAULT ????

[Bretsky]

Thoughts ????

[Bretsky]

I am interested in seeing results. Obviously everybody has contributed. But who is most to blame for the offensive meltdown ?

[pbmax]

How about Poll Option 5:

° I did not know I could change the default 4 answers to 2?


The answer to this question is that it ultimately falls to M3, though he did not have a direct hand in each piece that failed.

[woodbuck27]

Easy...Mike McCarthy takes it on the shnob for this awful years 'O'.

I never warmed up to his style.

I do believe he's a very decent man. He simply cannot manage 'the BIG GAME' on the sidelines without looking like he needs another nerve pill and what must that poor man's stomach be like!?

He's just not cool enough. He always looks well..............like the loser.

[Bretsky]

FYI.....I stile this poll from ESPN 1070.....they had a majority voting in one direction.........I think it will be more balanced here.

[channtheman]

Rodgers simply hasn't been himself this year. Scared at the end of the Carolina game? On the last play? Did you see the redzone INT this past week when Jones had the entire front corner of the endzone to work with and was breaking to the pylon where he was wide open? Rodgers has not been his usual self this year and his accuracy and decision making has shown it.

[Joemailman]

I'm inclined to thank the changes on the offensive coaching staff simply did not work. So that's on MM.

I'd blame Olivia Munn if that were an option.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Comes down to MM, he's the HC and responsibility falls on him.

[Fritz]

I said earlier the coaching staff but I've changed my mind. Rodgers makes millions more per year - millions! - than anyone else on the team. You make that kind of money because you come as close as any single player can to putting the team on your back and carrying them. This is both about skill and leadership, and to my mind, he has been mediocre in the former and has failed in the latter. No, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and yes he was elected offensive captain, but all the eye-rolling and disgusted looks and arms-in-the-air stuff suggests anything but leadership. And there have been many many dropped balls, but there have also been many errant passes.

He plays the most important position, makes the most money, and is supposed to be the leader of this team. It's on a lot of people, but most of all on him. Instead of steady confidence or fiery enthusiasm, he displays a kind of disdain and distance that is not helping at all. And his stats are mediocre, too.

[woodbuck27]

I'dm like to change my vote that it's on MM to >>> it's on TT.

TT is ultimately responsible for the overall operation of the team and any personnel issues.

TT has to ensure that MM has the depth of talent that the team's HC will be effectively able to win with.

Too often TT has his head in the sand and too often we 'as a forum' should have be in accord and seeing 'just that'.

TT's always suffered that affliction and it's a huge flaw; a drawback to ever having a team (The GREEN BAY PACKERS) be totally ready Vs the TOP NFL teams.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Thoughts ????

Occasionally, but you wouldn't be interested.

[George Cumby]

Count me as another write in for Olivia Ono.

[wist43]

It's a combination of MM and TT first and foremost... player procurement and offensive philosophy in general.

Our best WR is Jordy, who is 6'3", 217 lbs... why TT doesn't target more WR's like him is beyond me. Cobb is a midget; James Jones has some size, but is limited athletically and not a great route runner; and Adams is more a clone of Jones than Jordy; Abredaris is slight of build and limited... none of those guys can get off press coverage.

The run blocking is all about influence and lateral movement. Not a single road grader in the bunch, and MM seldom calls any power plays. Very little pulling, no trapping... it's passive, passive, passive.

TT has ignored the TE spot for the most part - and won't admit when he's missed on players. Rodgers is not the answer in any way, shape, or form. He's got some size and good hands, but his feet are stuck in cement. None of the other TE's can threaten the seam and keep the safeties honest either. The position is a mess.

-------------------------------------------------------

The foregoing issues have led to a serious decline in Rodgers's play... he looks scared back there, rarely throws on time b/c no one is getting open on their initial route, and when the protection breaks down - which it does on almost every play - he scrambles into the open, but isn't seeing the field well, perhaps a function of his playing scared??

-------------------------------------------------------

Add it all up, and the whole thing is a mess.

Worse, TT and MM will not - cannot - change their approach. I fear we're stuck in a rut now that will not end as long as this regime is in place.

We scammed that one SB in '10, but my fears of our team becoming a perennial playoff team without the cajones to win it all seem to be our reality.

[wist43]

Here's a pretty good article and commentary on CBSSportsline...


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/pete-prisco/25441306/after-further-review-why-aaron-rodgers-is-not-playing-like-an-elite-qb

"In the past two games, against playoff teams in the Arizona Cardinals and Minnesota Vikings, Rodgers was sacked 13 times, lost three fumbles, two for touchdowns, and was picked off twice.

The Packers have four touchdowns in the past three games. That used to be a game's worth when the offense was rolling."

OUCH!!!

[3irty1]

I've got to say MM by process of elimination.

Ted seems to have done very well in the draft. And we were all LOVING him for the James Jones move after Jordy's injury.

Rodgers had a down year but was still the best player on the team. With such obvious failings from those around him its hard to pin him as the weak link.

MM is the most culpable IMO. Right from the beginning when Lacy and Datone Jones missed their weight marks this team was in a hole. We had a number of regressions in performance from players on both sides of the ball and this is his responsibility. At times we've been completely noncompetitive on offense. MM all the way.

[mraynrand]

^^ I'm settling on on Stubby. I wanted to blame Rodgers for his 'lack of trust' crap, but ultimately, Stubby decides who plays, and who gets the ball. Janis played a big role in winning the first Minnesota game and he didn't see a play on offense in the second. Unless Stubby was waiting for the playoffs, not playing the guys who can get open is his fault regardless of the O-line. Bob Schnelker would have run Janis on a reverse.

I did forget about the O-line. They are pretty beat up and so Rodgers was at risk. So I blame fate too. And Wist - because he is so hideously negative that I'm sure it's seeped into the whole team somehow.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's a combination of MM and TT first and foremost... player procurement and offensive philosophy in general.

Our best WR is Jordy, who is 6'3", 217 lbs... why TT doesn't target more WR's like him is beyond me. Cobb is a midget; James Jones has some size, but is limited athletically and not a great route runner; and Adams is more a clone of Jones than Jordy; Abredaris is slight of build and limited... none of those guys can get off press coverage.

The run blocking is all about influence and lateral movement. Not a single road grader in the bunch, and MM seldom calls any power plays. Very little pulling, no trapping... it's passive, passive, passive.

TT has ignored the TE spot for the most part - and won't admit when he's missed on players. Rodgers is not the answer in any way, shape, or form. He's got some size and good hands, but his feet are stuck in cement. None of the other TE's can threaten the seam and keep the safeties honest either. The position is a mess.

-------------------------------------------------------

The foregoing issues have led to a serious decline in Rodgers's play... he looks scared back there, rarely throws on time b/c no one is getting open on their initial route, and when the protection breaks down - which it does on almost every play - he scrambles into the open, but isn't seeing the field well, perhaps a function of his playing scared??

-------------------------------------------------------

Add it all up, and the whole thing is a mess.

Worse, TT and MM will not - cannot - change their approach. I fear we're stuck in a rut now that will not end as long as this regime is in place.

We scammed that one SB in '10, but my fears of our team becoming a perennial playoff team without the cajones to win it all seem to be our reality.You pretty much nailed it, except to add that team speed really needs to be improved, even more important than big WR's.

[Freak Out]

STUBBY!!!! & TT.

[pbmax]

I think Zool always selects option number 4 in each poll.

[TravisWilliams23]

MM. Seems like EVERY game time outs are wasted because the play clock is running out. Adams poor performance hasn't resulted in his benching. Not only Adams but Arod, Cobb, Lacey, Starks, Barclay, Masthay, Ryan, Peppers, Matthews all have screwed the pooch but never seem to be held accountable. The f-ups we've seen time after time never get fixed. That's coaching or a lack there of.

The players have bought into the notion they can turn "it" on in the playoffs but "it" isn't anywhere to be found this year. 4 and 6 the last 10 and really should have been 3 and 7 if you discount the Detroit miracle is where the team is right now. I always hope they turn "it" around but the body of evidence says otherwise.

[RashanGary]

I voted Rodgers. I listen to McCarthy and he has a "whatever it takes, even if it's ugly" attitude. Rodgers has a perfectionist attitude when he talks. McCarthy had an attitude to adapt to change. Ar has an attitude that would make it hard to adapt and we haven't. I suspect it's his fault.

[Pugger]

I said this weeks ago and you all chastised me and told me I was making excuses but IMO the reason why our offense has stunk this year is because McCarthy changed up his offensive assistant coaches. The biggest gaff was having Van Pelt coach both the QBs and the WRs. Doing this put too much on Alex's plate and now both of these positions have regressed. Outside of the injuries on the o line the poor play of Rodgers and the WRs is the main reason why our offense has stunk this year. Van Pelt is a good QB coach. He was the QB coach last year when Rodgers won the MVP. I'd have no issue if Alex is the QB coach next year. However, our WRs need individual coaching. It is no coincidence these guys are having problems running routes and getting open. It wouldn't hurt to bring in a new WR coach in 2016.

[MadScientist]

I voted Rodgers because he hasn't seemed right since the roughing the passer hit he took in the second quarter in Denver. I don't think he trusts his arm like he used to. Receivers who are out, playing hurt or just plain sucking don't help, and an OL that can't block a one-legged girl scout add up a shit fest on offense. At this point it doesn't matter what MM calls, it won't work regularly. TT gets some of the blame for whiffing badly in 2011, and 2012 (save Daniels). This is the time where those drafts are really hurting us.

[Fritz]

It's a combination of MM and TT first and foremost... player procurement and offensive philosophy in general.

Our best WR is Jordy, who is 6'3", 217 lbs... why TT doesn't target more WR's like him is beyond me. Cobb is a midget; James Jones has some size, but is limited athletically and not a great route runner; and Adams is more a clone of Jones than Jordy; Abredaris is slight of build and limited... none of those guys can get off press coverage.

The run blocking is all about influence and lateral movement. Not a single road grader in the bunch, and MM seldom calls any power plays. Very little pulling, no trapping... it's passive, passive, passive.

TT has ignored the TE spot for the most part - and won't admit when he's missed on players. Rodgers is not the answer in any way, shape, or form. He's got some size and good hands, but his feet are stuck in cement. None of the other TE's can threaten the seam and keep the safeties honest either. The position is a mess.

-------------------------------------------------------

The foregoing issues have led to a serious decline in Rodgers's play... he looks scared back there, rarely throws on time b/c no one is getting open on their initial route, and when the protection breaks down - which it does on almost every play - he scrambles into the open, but isn't seeing the field well, perhaps a function of his playing scared??

-------------------------------------------------------

Add it all up, and the whole thing is a mess.

Worse, TT and MM will not - cannot - change their approach. I fear we're stuck in a rut now that will not end as long as this regime is in place.

We scammed that one SB in '10, but my fears of our team becoming a perennial playoff team without the cajones to win it all seem to be our reality.


While I don't think this offense is going to get fixed in time to make a SB run longer than maybe one win, I also don't think the team's poor play as of late fits into your previous narrative, which was that A) Capers "doesn't care" about stopping the run, and B) the team was too soft and unmanly and thus would always pass rather than run (because running is a sign of toughness).

The run-pass ratio isn't bad compared to that of other teams, I don't think, and at the end of last year the offensive line, as a unit, was playing at a very, very high level. Rodgers had all year to throw the ball last year, and the same guys are playing this year - though they seem to be more injured and less effective.

Not getting to or winning more Super Bowls has nothing to do with Thompson or Cpaers or McCarthy not having cajones. It's not about "not caring" enough, as you've suggested, and it's not about not being macho enough, as you've suggested.

It is probably a combination of factors, some of which we likely don't even know. Then there are the effects of the revamped coaching staff (coming from a coach so many people say is stubborn and stuck in his ways), the loss of Nelson, the myriad other injuries, both on the offensive line and in the WR/TE corp (I think losing Montgomery hurt quite a bit), Rodgers' worsening play (possibly connected in part to the o-line's worsening play this year), and Olivia Munn.

I don't think this year's team fits your narrative, try as you might to stuff the square peg in the round hole, as you like to say.

[mraynrand]

It is probably a combination of factors, some of which we likely don't even know. Then there are the effects of the revamped coaching staff (coming from a coach so many people say is stubborn and stuck in his ways), the loss of Nelson, the myriad other injuries, both on the offensive line and in the WR/TE corp (I think losing Montgomery hurt quite a bit), Rodgers' worsening play (possibly connected in part to the o-line's worsening play this year), and Olivia Munn.

add in Lacy (fat) questionable, and you have the Perfect (shit) Storm. That's what's doomed this offense and team. The Defense and STs have been a nice surprise.

[Zool]

I voted the last one because claiming courage by internet poll is like claiming sexy based on a match.com profile. This pole is fat from the chin down with a gunt.

[red]

all 3 are to blame

you almost have to look back at the days when people called TT a draft guru, and just laugh. yes, some people will say that everyone is gonna miss on some draft picks, but when you only build a team through the draft you damn well better hit on almost all of your picks. he has not

a-rod has turned into a pussy who has lost his accuracy. he won't dare risk a pass to anyone who has a defender within 10 yards of him. for some reason the tv commentators always cover for him by saying that everyone is covered, but when you watch the replays, guys are open. you have to give your guys a chance at the ball and at least TRY to make a play

but by a hair, i give the most blame to MM. by losing just 1 guy (jordy), we went from having a very productive and scary offence into a barely functioning mess, lots of coaches adapt when they lose their top WR, not MM. and we might be even worse since he took play calling duties back over. his plays are vanilla, his play calling is suspect, he's time management is horrible and his players rarely come out looking ready to play. he is directly responsible for a-rod turning into the little pussy he now is

maybe the best course of action this off season would be for TT to "retire", wolf to take over and fire MM to bring in his own coach, and then find some head coach who'll come in and not be scared of his QB. maybe a smart coach for a change?

[pbmax]

a-rod has turned into a pussy who has lost his accuracy. he won't dare risk a pass to anyone who has a defender within 10 yards of him. for some reason the tv commentators always cover for him by saying that everyone is covered, but when you watch the replays, guys are open. you have to give your guys a chance at the ball and at least TRY to make a play


His interception total doesn't agree with you. And yes there have been open receivers, but when you are open but not in the route (and not in the progression) that was called, that is an example of not being in sync with the QB and the offense. The QB doesn't see you until the rest of the play breaks down.

I suspect its 75% of the reason Janis is not out there to catch balls. He is used to just running to an open spot and the QB waits like Tebow or old Russell Wilson for him to clear and throw it open. Like an old Steve Spurrier fade route.

The one thing this offense is not right not is precise. And I agree that Nelson covered a lot of woes. They lost too much talent at WR too quickly, the replacements are ready (or are hurt) and they still haven't solved the man coverage.

[gbgary]

i blame injuries. LOL

[red]

His interception total doesn't agree with you. And yes there have been open receivers, but when you are open but not in the route (and not in the progression) that was called, that is an example of not being in sync with the QB and the offense. The QB doesn't see you until the rest of the play breaks down.

I suspect its 75% of the reason Janis is not out there to catch balls. He is used to just running to an open spot and the QB waits like Tebow or old Russell Wilson for him to clear and throw it open. Like an old Steve Spurrier fade route.

The one thing this offense is not right not is precise. And I agree that Nelson covered a lot of woes. They lost too much talent at WR too quickly, the replacements are ready (or are hurt) and they still haven't solved the man coverage.

i'm not sure what your point about his int numbers is suppose to mean pb

the 8 he had this year is right at his career average, in a year where he needs to be taking more chances imo

and at least 2 or maybe 3 of his recent int's that i can remember were off of just terrible throws, not risks gone bad, just bad throws. where in the past the majority of his int's when come off the hands of his receivers or off great plays by the defense. we never use to see a-rod making terrible throws

[red]

i blame injuries. LOL

you made the LOL like you were laughing, but i'm sure many agree with that notion

the offense hasn't looked good all year, even during the 6 game win streak the numbers were way down, and we were commenting on it. that was back when the team was healthy, except for the loss of jordy

and that would be shocking if the whole offense went this far down the toilet just by lossing one guy not named aaron rodgers

[dsilby]

At the end of the day, the players on the field have to make plays. McCarthy doesn't get a free pass, nor should he.
But when a ball goes right through Adam's hand in the end zone, Rodgers overthrowing open receivers at an alarming rate, having no TE that can get anywhere more than 5 yards down field, a RB who's fat, an offensive line that's all banged up and playing without your stud receiver.
Maybe Mike could get more creative with plays? But if the line isn't blocking and the receivers aren't catching and the QB isn't accurate.
A coach can only do so much.

[pbmax]

At the end of the day, the players on the field have to make plays. McCarthy doesn't get a free pass, nor should he.
But when a ball goes right through Adam's hand in the end zone, Rodgers overthrowing open receivers at an alarming rate, having no TE that can get anywhere more than 5 yards down field, a RB who's fat, an offensive line that's all banged up and playing without your stud receiver.
Maybe Mike could get more creative with plays? But if the line isn't blocking and the receivers aren't catching and the QB isn't accurate.
A coach can only do so much.

Its a good question. If M3 had made every recommended move, would the Packers record look different?

I think it helps the WR most, the QB next, but I am not sure he can help the O line much more. You could chip the DE every down but that just takes receivers out of their route and makes man easier to play.

I think there is a cap to how much the coach/playcaller could do by themselves. Its really been a group effort.

[Rutnstrut]

My first choice was to put most of the blame on stubby. Second thought most should go on Rodgers, here is why I think so. With the receiver situation being what it is, Rodgers needed/needs to be almost perfect. He has been anything but, not only is he not making exceptional plays. He's not even making a lot of basic plays that he should make, so he is not making their average receivers look even average. When they really needed to lean on their MVP QB he failed.

[dsilby]

My first choice was to put most of the blame on stubby. Second thought most should go on Rodgers, here is why I think so. With the receiver situation being what it is, Rodgers needed/needs to be almost perfect. He has been anything but, not only is he not making exceptional plays. He's not even making a lot of basic plays that he should make, so he is not making their average receivers look even average. When they really needed to lean on their MVP QB he failed.

Who's Stubby? Is that a poster?

[dsilby]

Its a good question. If M3 had made every recommended move, would the Packers record look different?

I think it helps the WR most, the QB next, but I am not sure he can help the O line much more. You could chip the DE every down but that just takes receivers out of their route and makes man easier to play.

I think there is a cap to how much the coach/playcaller could do by themselves. Its really been a group effort.
Yeah, I agree with this.
Everyone on this team from management to the players is at fault.
But this team goes as far as Rodgers can take them. And right now he has a problem taking them from the 50 to the 30.

And what is "every recommended move"?

[Striker]

Who's Stubby? Is that a poster?

Stubby is what some people call MM (or Fat Mike).

Still tamer than some of the other stuff you've read recently.

[mraynrand]

Who's Stubby? Is that a poster?

Stubborn + Tubby = Stubby

[red]

Stubborn + Tubby = Stubby

i vote for changing his name to "stuckey"

stupid + fat fuckery

[Bossman641]

So a lot of us have commented on how the WR's run lazy routes or don't look like they are running the routes with any precision.

From the JSO....


The same personnel man said while studying the Packers a coach told him to watch the wide receivers because it was unclear to him what they were trying to accomplish with their routes. The Packers have had the same offense for years, but the receivers didn't seem to be finishing their routes this year.

"He told me, 'The wide receivers are just running to spots and they expect the quarterback to scramble and they don't get the ball out on time,'" the personnel man said. "I watched it and he was right. They run and they stop and then they run around and don't really run routes. I don't know if that's a philosophy or what. I don't know what you call it."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/experts-from-other-teams-see-multiple-problems-with-packers-offense-b99647555z1-364763641.html

It's time to get a dedicated WR coach again and not split that role up.

[red]

who is the WR coach now that its not edgar? or is he OC AND wr coach?

but its not just on the WR coach, a head coach SHOULD see this same problem and either fix it, or make sure it gets fixed

[red]

maybe they should make clements do it, he's not doing anything else

[Bossman641]

Van pelt is the qb and wr coach

[Carolina_Packer]

So a lot of us have commented on how the WR's run lazy routes or don't look like they are running the routes with any precision.

From the JSO....



http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/experts-from-other-teams-see-multiple-problems-with-packers-offense-b99647555z1-364763641.html

It's time to get a dedicated WR coach again and not split that role up.

Since the route concepts (and execution thereof) have come into question much earlier in the season, I'd say you could blame Van Pelt only so long. The HC has to be on top of situations like that and has to be prepared with a counter-punch. Wouldn't you imagine that there have been countless meetings about what to do to beat man coverage? In the end, what you need is to beat the man covering you, if you keep running the same route concepts. You would think that a head coach and former QB coach and OC would be more prepared to take on the possibility of press man, and would have had a move to counter what is being done to his receivers. It's ultimately the players job to execute, so perhaps we are seeing that what we have been left with is not good enough to help generate production in the short passing game. Ultimately, it's up to the head coach to make sure that there is a counter punch to the punches that are landing. I'm definitely a players, not plays guy, however, you have to try some new things instead of just trying to get the same things to work. Just one example, what would an opposing defense do if the Packers put a guy in motion? But that's not what our offense does! Right, but if your offense not getting production doing what it's doing, shouldn't you be willing to try some things?

[MadtownPacker]

The blame for the collapse of any team has to go to the leader IMO That is M3. Rodgers is one of M3's team leaders. He is a huge part but he does not control the team. If something is sour within the team the QB shouldn't be expected to fix it. The leader of the team should.
TT runs the business side and if he sees the person in charge of the team(M3) isn't running things right he gets a new person to lead the team. The way I see it TT got his SB out of M3. That is TT's job and he accomplished it with the hiring of McCarthy IMO. As far as he is concened his coach is always on the hot seat. When he feels his coach has maxed out he will few replace him. I don't think it is there yet but if next season starts out like this then it will be time to replace the leader.

[Maxie the Taxi]

So a lot of us have commented on how the WR's run lazy routes or don't look like they are running the routes with any precision.

From the JSO....



http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/experts-from-other-teams-see-multiple-problems-with-packers-offense-b99647555z1-364763641.html

It's time to get a dedicated WR coach again and not split that role up.


"People say the receivers have no speed, that they can't get free," said the first personnel man. "Well, Seattle's receivers don't have speed and they get free. You can do things to get receivers free. The quarterback seems unsure about them."

Yeah, right. Who in the NFL is going to catch Tyler Lockett from behind?

[texaspackerbacker]

I doubt that position coaches have much to do with it.

Personnel is the top factor, and that is on Ted. He either had a stroke of brilliance or lucked into getting Aaron Rodgers, and other than that, he has let the personnel slide into mediocrity. Our O Line isn't worth shit; Our D is only as good as it is because of Capers' scheming and compensating (yeah, I know that ain't the offense, but just saying .....); Our receivers were overrated and got exposed with the Nelson injury.

The other major factor is the stupid insistence on a run-first strategy, and that is on McCarthy. I'm not automatically against a running game; If we had a dominant or even half decent O Line - which ours wasn't even before the injuries, then I'd be all for running, just like the Badgers up until this season anyway. However, given the Packers personnel, a run play is a wasted play, and all it does is put more pressure on the QB to pass on 2nd or 3rd and long. As bad as the O Line is, Aaron Rodgers has proved for several years that he can escape and complete passes. Even with teams following the Denver example and trying to hem him in, he still escapes often enough. And even as mediocre as our receivers are, Rodgers will hit them for first down yardage given 3 tries. Run Run, then 3rd and 8, though, that doesn't cut it.

I have a hunch things are gonna change for the better today - back to a pass-first attack.

[pbmax]

Yeah, right. Who in the NFL is going to catch Tyler Lockett from behind?

Baldwin is not a slouch either:


Doug Baldwin. Not invited to Combine. At his Stanford Pro Day, 5'9", 189 lbs. Ran a 4.47-4.49 in the 40, 37" Vert, 10'3" Broad, 4.26 in the shuttle, 6.65 in the 3-Cone and reportedly 6 reps of 225 lbs.Feb 22, 2012

[dsilby]

Stubby is what some people call MM (or Fat Mike).

Still tamer than some of the other stuff you've read recently.

Ahhh, not sure what that has to do with coaching. But yeah, a lot tamer than some other stuff I've heard.