THE UNTOUCHABLE GETS SOME CRITICISM

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/lack-of-in-season-roster-moves-by-silent-gm-thompson-hurting-team-b99647553z1-364762971.html

[Bretsky]

I think this has been expressed before

Let's not misunderstand. The best players for every team had better be draft choices. The draft must be the lifeblood of every organization.

Thompson has drafted well over time, but not well enough to bury his head in the sand when it comes to making moves during the season as well as the off-season.

[denverYooper]

[Davis has shown field-stretching speed, which would have been invaluable in Green Bay. His play seems to lack some of its old exuberance, but the Broncos have no complaints.


Having watched a lot of Broncos games, I would be surprised if this were true. Davis has not been worth the compensation they gave for him and has dropped multiple balls in crucial situations. He got benched for some time after one of those.

Owen Daniels was a much better TE acquisition.

[denverYooper]

I'm glad McGinn finally wrote an article about how other teams do it way better than the Packers.

They've been playing poorly since he wrote that article a month or about how they looked like a real contender.

Maybe now the fog will lift.

[Bretsky]

I hope it has the same effect as well but I don't disagree with some of his points. Perhaps he reads Packerrats

[red]

I'm glad McGinn finally wrote an article about how other teams do it way better than the Packers.

They've been playing poorly since he wrote that article a month or about how they looked like a real contender.

Maybe now the fog will lift.

yeah, we need more articles talking about how he's such and amazing drafter

[Bretsky]

yeah, we need more articles talking about how he's such and amazing drafter


Is he that outstanding ? He seems to avoid questioning from the crowd when some of his picks have been utter failures lately and has left holes

[mraynrand]

yeah, we need more articles talking about how he's such and amazing drafter

A good GM will make the right moves to win the Superbowl every year. TT is not a good GM.

[mraynrand]

Is he that outstanding ? He seems to avoid questioning from the crowd when some of his picks have been utter failures lately and has left holes

Only TT misses on draft picks. I know this because I never compare him to other GMs.

[Bretsky]

A good GM will make the right moves to win the Superbowl every year. TT is not a good GM.

I think TT is a good GM

I no longer think TT is a great GM

[ThunderDan]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/lack-of-in-season-roster-moves-by-silent-gm-thompson-hurting-team-b99647553z1-364762971.html

What a silly title for this thread. TT has been under constant criticism since he took over as GM.

[mraynrand]

I guess it depends on your definition of great. For me, the bottom line is it. TT is clearly in the top 5 in the NFL.


Frankly, I'm tired of guys like Bob Mcclickbait - or anyone else - who deal in 20/20 hindsight, cherry pick moves, only comparing the Packers with teams and moves that have worked out. It's rather shallow and dull analysis.

Yeah, TT should have traded Boyd and Richardson to Atlanta for Julio Jones when Nelson got hurt. Then they wouldn't be sitting on GB's IR and we'd have a #1 receiver instead of the shit we have. See, I can do it too.

[mraynrand]

What a silly title for this thread. TT has been under constant criticism since he took over as GM.

yeah, no kidding. The guy can't take a dump without having someone questioning his moves.

[ThunderDan]

yeah, no kidding. The guy can't take a dump without having someone questioning his moves.

First it was the O line after they had to let the 2 guards go. Then it was not bringing in enough talent for the BF end years. Part of which was drafting Rodgers. Then it was not getting Moss who would have changed nothing in the 2007 season as BF had a career year. It just goes on and on. Then we got to 579. Now it is something else. It will never end.

[pbmax]

Since 2005, including that 4-12 season with a coach not of his own choosing.

Point Differential


Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2005 2015 196 146 50 0 0.745 5698 3827 1871 9525
2 PIT 2005 2015 190 121 69 0 0.637 4483 3522 961 8005
3 GNB 2005 2015 189 115 73 1 0.611 4937 4046 891 8983
4 SDG 2005 2015 185 105 80 0 0.568 4659 3887 772 8546
5 SEA 2005 2015 193 112 81 0 0.580 4484 3784 700 8268
6 BAL 2005 2015 192 111 81 0 0.578 4234 3629 605 7863
7 IND 2005 2015 193 127 66 0 0.658 4706 4176 530 8882
8 NOR 2005 2015 186 103 83 0 0.554 4917 4420 497 9337
9 DEN 2005 2015 185 111 74 0 0.600 4496 4196 300 8692
10 DAL 2005 2015 182 99 83 0 0.544 4367 4075 292 8442



Wins


Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2005 2015 196 146 50 0 0.745 5698 3827 1871 9525
2 IND 2005 2015 193 127 66 0 0.658 4706 4176 530 8882
3 PIT 2005 2015 190 121 69 0 0.637 4483 3522 961 8005
4 GNB 2005 2015 189 115 73 1 0.611 4937 4046 891 8983
5 SEA 2005 2015 193 112 81 0 0.580 4484 3784 700 8268
6 BAL 2005 2015 192 111 81 0 0.578 4234 3629 605 7863
7 DEN 2005 2015 185 111 74 0 0.600 4496 4196 300 8692
8 SDG 2005 2015 185 105 80 0 0.568 4659 3887 772 8546
9 NYG 2005 2015 187 104 83 0 0.556 4508 4254 254 8762
10 NOR 2005 2015 186 103 83 0 0.554 4917 4420 497 9337
11 DAL 2005 2015 182 99 83 0 0.544 4367 4075 292 8442
12 CHI 2005 2015 182 98 84 0 0.538 4037 3892 145 7929
13 CAR 2005 2015 183 98 84 1 0.538 3954 3829 125 7783
14 PHI 2005 2015 184 96 87 1 0.524 4472 4188 284 8660
15 CIN 2005 2015 183 96 85 2 0.530 4044 3863 181 7907
16 ATL 2005 2015 181 94 87 0 0.519 4065 4033 32 8098
17 ARI 2005 2015 183 93 90 0 0.508 4059 4207 -148 8266
18 SFO 2005 2015 184 91 92 1 0.497 3677 3907 -230 7584
19 MIN 2005 2015 180 88 91 1 0.492 3969 3981 -12 7950
20 NYJ 2005 2015 183 87 96 0 0.475 3700 3897 -197 7597
21 HOU 2005 2015 181 83 98 0 0.459 3925 4106 -181 8031
22 KAN 2005 2015 180 80 100 0 0.444 3611 3899 -288 7510
23 MIA 2005 2015 177 76 101 0 0.429 3464 3831 -367 7295
24 TEN 2005 2015 178 76 102 0 0.427 3595 4153 -558 7748
25 WAS 2005 2015 180 74 106 0 0.411 3635 4127 -492 7762
26 BUF 2005 2015 176 71 105 0 0.403 3477 4030 -553 7507
27 JAX 2005 2015 179 71 108 0 0.397 3512 4183 -671 7695
28 TAM 2005 2015 178 69 109 0 0.388 3398 4083 -685 7481
29 DET 2005 2015 178 62 116 0 0.348 3765 4518 -753 8283
30 CLE 2005 2015 176 57 119 0 0.324 3025 3946 -921 6971
31 STL 2005 2015 176 56 119 1 0.321 3133 4280 -1147 7413
32 OAK 2005 2015 176 54 122 0 0.307 3194 4431 -1237 7625

[Patler]

Having watched a lot of Broncos games, I would be surprised if this were true. Davis has not been worth the compensation they gave for him and has dropped multiple balls in crucial situations. He got benched for some time after one of those.

Owen Daniels was a much better TE acquisition.

A couple weeks ago, I saw an article from one of the Denver sports guys. He basically stated that when they got Davis he thought they couldn't go wrong with the trade. He then said he was wrong, it was wasted. Davis had added nothing, and more importantly failed to come through in the situations he was acquired for..

[Rutnstrut]

I think TT is a good GM

I no longer think TT is a great GM

This is a great reply. Myself I think he is an average GM. A good/great GM wouldn't be so close minded towards improving the team. I have always said there is no reason to go nuts in free agency. But to absolutely refuse to use certain tools is just ignorant.

[mraynrand]

A good/great GM wouldn't be so close minded towards improving the team. I have always said there is no reason to go nuts in free agency. But to absolutely refuse to use certain tools is just ignorant.

More straw man arguments. It doesn't help your case.

[pbmax]

Let's all take a moment to remember all the times Bob advocated the hiring of bigger and tougher for those December games.

They now have that kind of team.

And now they are missing speed at certain key areas. I wonder what the offseason articles will focus on?

This was always opportunistic criticism for bad outcomes. The margin for error with a winning team is small. And they missed their best opportunity last year.

/soft 'n small was always bullshit

[Harlan Huckleby]

I 'member the day after Jordy went down McGinn wrote an article saying "not to worry", TT has stockpiled plenty of talent for a Super Bowl run.

[Patler]

This is a great reply. Myself I think he is an average GM. A good/great GM wouldn't be so close minded towards improving the team. I have always said there is no reason to go nuts in free agency. But to absolutely refuse to use certain tools is just ignorant.

What tools does he "absolutely refuse to use"?

Free Agency? James Jones, Letroy Guion, Julius Peppers, Senecca Wallace, Matt Mulligan, Vince Young, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Grant, Cedric Benson, Phillip Merling, Jeff Saturday were all very experienced, veterans signed as free agents in the last 5 years. Does he go after the high priced, big name free agents? Only now and then, but he certainly does not absolutely refuse to use it.

Trades? First, trades to acquire players are not real common as it is. Secondly, it has been reported that he has been close to completed trades for several players a number of times. We don't know how many other discussions he may have had. Admittedly, he has completed only a few trades for players, and none recently. He doesn't refuse to do it, but he does refuse to get in bidding wars and/or give whatever it takes to get a certain player. If the Packers were never tied to discussions about trades, maybe you could accuse him of absolutely refusing, but that is not the case.

[Maxie the Taxi]

We need an ILB. C'mon, TT. Sign Vontaze Burfict. He's sure to be a free agent real soon.

[Zool]

I love that the Vernon Davis trade is brought up as an example. Ask anyone who has watched more than 3 minutes of Bronco football since. The 3 Bronco fans I know say he's done absolutely nothing.

[Rutnstrut]

What tools does he "absolutely refuse to use"?

Free Agency? James Jones, Letroy Guion, Julius Peppers, Senecca Wallace, Matt Mulligan, Vince Young, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Grant, Cedric Benson, Phillip Merling, Jeff Saturday were all very experienced, veterans signed as free agents in the last 5 years. Does he go after the high priced, big name free agents? Only now and then, but he certainly does not absolutely refuse to use it.

Trades? First, trades to acquire players are not real common as it is. Secondly, it has been reported that he has been close to completed trades for several players a number of times. We don't know how many other discussions he may have had. Admittedly, he has completed only a few trades for players, and none recently. He doesn't refuse to do it, but he does refuse to get in bidding wars and/or give whatever it takes to get a certain player. If the Packers were never tied to discussions about trades, maybe you could accuse him of absolutely refusing, but that is not the case.

You keep telling yourself that TT uses free agency and or trades if it makes you feel better.

[mraynrand]

You keep telling yourself that TT uses free agency and or trades if it makes you feel better.

the truth feels good

[Patler]

You keep telling yourself that TT uses free agency and or trades if it makes you feel better.

Five starters in the last 5 years.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Since 2005, including that 4-12 season with a coach not of his own choosing.

Point Differential


Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2005 2015 196 146 50 0 0.745 5698 3827 1871 9525
2 PIT 2005 2015 190 121 69 0 0.637 4483 3522 961 8005
3 GNB 2005 2015 189 115 73 1 0.611 4937 4046 891 8983
4 SDG 2005 2015 185 105 80 0 0.568 4659 3887 772 8546
5 SEA 2005 2015 193 112 81 0 0.580 4484 3784 700 8268
6 BAL 2005 2015 192 111 81 0 0.578 4234 3629 605 7863
7 IND 2005 2015 193 127 66 0 0.658 4706 4176 530 8882
8 NOR 2005 2015 186 103 83 0 0.554 4917 4420 497 9337
9 DEN 2005 2015 185 111 74 0 0.600 4496 4196 300 8692
10 DAL 2005 2015 182 99 83 0 0.544 4367 4075 292 8442



Wins


Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2005 2015 196 146 50 0 0.745 5698 3827 1871 9525
2 IND 2005 2015 193 127 66 0 0.658 4706 4176 530 8882
3 PIT 2005 2015 190 121 69 0 0.637 4483 3522 961 8005
4 GNB 2005 2015 189 115 73 1 0.611 4937 4046 891 8983
5 SEA 2005 2015 193 112 81 0 0.580 4484 3784 700 8268
6 BAL 2005 2015 192 111 81 0 0.578 4234 3629 605 7863
7 DEN 2005 2015 185 111 74 0 0.600 4496 4196 300 8692
8 SDG 2005 2015 185 105 80 0 0.568 4659 3887 772 8546
9 NYG 2005 2015 187 104 83 0 0.556 4508 4254 254 8762
10 NOR 2005 2015 186 103 83 0 0.554 4917 4420 497 9337
11 DAL 2005 2015 182 99 83 0 0.544 4367 4075 292 8442
12 CHI 2005 2015 182 98 84 0 0.538 4037 3892 145 7929
13 CAR 2005 2015 183 98 84 1 0.538 3954 3829 125 7783
14 PHI 2005 2015 184 96 87 1 0.524 4472 4188 284 8660
15 CIN 2005 2015 183 96 85 2 0.530 4044 3863 181 7907
16 ATL 2005 2015 181 94 87 0 0.519 4065 4033 32 8098
17 ARI 2005 2015 183 93 90 0 0.508 4059 4207 -148 8266
18 SFO 2005 2015 184 91 92 1 0.497 3677 3907 -230 7584
19 MIN 2005 2015 180 88 91 1 0.492 3969 3981 -12 7950
20 NYJ 2005 2015 183 87 96 0 0.475 3700 3897 -197 7597
21 HOU 2005 2015 181 83 98 0 0.459 3925 4106 -181 8031
22 KAN 2005 2015 180 80 100 0 0.444 3611 3899 -288 7510
23 MIA 2005 2015 177 76 101 0 0.429 3464 3831 -367 7295
24 TEN 2005 2015 178 76 102 0 0.427 3595 4153 -558 7748
25 WAS 2005 2015 180 74 106 0 0.411 3635 4127 -492 7762
26 BUF 2005 2015 176 71 105 0 0.403 3477 4030 -553 7507
27 JAX 2005 2015 179 71 108 0 0.397 3512 4183 -671 7695
28 TAM 2005 2015 178 69 109 0 0.388 3398 4083 -685 7481
29 DET 2005 2015 178 62 116 0 0.348 3765 4518 -753 8283
30 CLE 2005 2015 176 57 119 0 0.324 3025 3946 -921 6971
31 STL 2005 2015 176 56 119 1 0.321 3133 4280 -1147 7413
32 OAK 2005 2015 176 54 122 0 0.307 3194 4431 -1237 7625


And since he got his own coach in there, they are second in point differential and at least second in winning pct (maybe 1st). Not sure how many games NE won in 2005.

[Deputy Nutz]

Its really tough to win in the NFL and to think that Thompson/McCarthy have been doing it since 2006 with 8 straight trips to the playoffs is pretty impressive. The pressure does add up when you have two quarterbacks in Favre and Rodgers and fans feel they deserve more than 2 Super Bowls between the two of them. Unless the Packers are playing and winning Super Bowls every year there is always going to be something to complain about. I just watched the 30 for 30 Four Falls in Buffalo, and it was amazing how supportive the fans were in Buffalo through the four straight Super Bowls, but Ralph Wilson fired Bill Pollan in the middle of the run because the Bills couldn't close the deal. Eventually this game is about winning championships and eventually the fan base and the board will get fed up with being a consistent brides maid.

[pbmax]

Buffalo is a fair comparison, but they never got even one SB and its an easy question whether or not firing Polian made them better. They got worse and stayed worse for a long, long time.

Fans do get tired, but that doesn't make the decision a better one.

[pbmax]

In answer to Harv's question:



Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2006 2015 160 124 36 0 0.775 4776 3057 1719 7833
2 GNB 2006 2015 160 104 55 1 0.653 4268 3368 900 7636
3 PIT 2006 2015 160 100 60 0 0.625 3735 2961 774 6696





Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2006 2015 160 124 36 0 0.775 4776 3057 1719 7833
2 GNB 2006 2015 160 104 55 1 0.653 4268 3368 900 7636
3 IND 2006 2015 160 104 56 0 0.650 3887 3545 342 7432
4 PIT 2006 2015 160 100 60 0 0.625 3735 2961 774 6696

[Patler]

I think 2014 hurts MM. It was a game that was so far in the bag at the time of the interception with 5 minutes left that the loss is hard to believe. The Packers had controlled the game from early on. Their momentum was continually building and a lot of what all went wrong seemed to point at coaching. MM took corrective action in the off season, which seemed to lay an egg during the 2015 regular season. I can see MM with one foot in the doghouse because of the 17 game stretch including the NFCCG. These playoffs can remove any pressure he might be under. The real pressure will come if he is still coaching when TT retires. A new GM will be less tolerant with a coach he inherited from the previous regime.

[Deputy Nutz]

TT and MM are tied together.

[3irty1]

My respect for McGinn has been on the rise for a few seasons. He knows football and he knows the fanbase well enough to manipulate them adeptly.

When pressed to get specific about exactly which free agents Ted should be opening the wallet for, the criticism of Ted's supposed aversion to free agency appears hollow. Considering that free agency is more or less a market for lemons with asymmetrical information between the buyers and sellers, Ted has a disproportionate amount of free agency success stories. Its just wrong to think Ted could "fill a hole" or "put the team over the top" with a free agent or two every year even if he had a crystal ball. A lot of the time what we need just isn't even available.

A GM has to be as competitive as everyone else in football which is always going to require a lot of risk. If you've taken on enough risk that things can pan out into a superbowl contender, you've unquestionably also taken on enough risk that its impossible to reliably win the super bowl every year. Filling a hole with a guy at market value is not a superbowl-or-bust move to me. To get a Woodson or Peppers (some of the greatest FA signings by any GM EVER) Ted was fishing for stars at well below market value. These opportunities are of course rare and risky but Ted's been very lucky. If you do just have to fill a hole, doing it with a rookie contract at well below market value is the high-risk, high-reward superbowl-or-bust way to build a team. I'd go so far as to posit that the real core of a team aren't the probowlers but the part of the team that turns over. The Micah Hydes, Bakhtiaris, and CJ Wilsons who are only special because they so outperform their paychecks and lose their magic once their rookie contract expires.

[3irty1]

I think 2014 hurts MM. It was a game that was so far in the bag at the time of the interception with 5 minutes left that the loss is hard to believe. The Packers had controlled the game from early on. Their momentum was continually building and a lot of what all went wrong seemed to point at coaching. MM took corrective action in the off season, which seemed to lay an egg during the 2015 regular season. I can see MM with one foot in the doghouse because of the 17 game stretch including the NFCCG. These playoffs can remove any pressure he might be under. The real pressure will come if he is still coaching when TT retires. A new GM will be less tolerant with a coach he inherited from the previous regime.

Even if that GM is Eliot Wolf?

[Patler]

Even if that GM is Eliot Wolf?

Maybe especially if the GM is Elliot Wolf.

[mraynrand]

My respect for McGinn has been on the rise for a few seasons. He knows football and he knows the fanbase well enough to manipulate them adeptly.

Just to be clear, you respect McGinn because he knows how to push the fan bases' buttons and get them riled up?

* (only highlight below if you can handle a political reference)








*(aside: don't want to go down the political road, but this also sounds like a perfect description of Trump. :) )

[3irty1]

^^^ Yes and yes. Although I should also mention that my opinion of him could only have risen. He's a clickbait artist but that's still an artist.

[HarveyWallbangers]

In answer to Harv's question:



Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2006 2015 160 124 36 0 0.775 4776 3057 1719 7833
2 GNB 2006 2015 160 104 55 1 0.653 4268 3368 900 7636
3 PIT 2006 2015 160 100 60 0 0.625 3735 2961 774 6696





Poin Poin Poin Poin
Rk Tm From To G W L T W-L% PF PA PD PC
1 NWE 2006 2015 160 124 36 0 0.775 4776 3057 1719 7833
2 GNB 2006 2015 160 104 55 1 0.653 4268 3368 900 7636
3 IND 2006 2015 160 104 56 0 0.650 3887 3545 342 7432
4 PIT 2006 2015 160 100 60 0 0.625 3735 2961 774 6696


Thanks. I misread the wins and losses columns, so I thought GB was closer in wins/losses from your chart. Seemed unlikely that we would have had a better winning percentage than New England. So, since TT and MM got together, the Packers have the second best winning percentage in the NFL, and they have the longest streak of playoff appearances (tied with New England). We are pretty spoiled. That being said, it would be disappointing to have one Super Bowl victory with Rodgers. Just like it was with Favre. I think the window will be wide open next year (provided good health), but then it could start closing the following year. Next year feels like a "must get it done" year.

[George Cumby]

yeah, no kidding. The guy can't take a dump without having someone questioning his moves.

I really take issue with TT's morning dump, today. I thought that he took too long, waiting for his players to develop. He should have strained a little harder to make things move faster. Also, he's such a cheapskate with that single ply TP, he needs to upgrade that position with some Charmin. SPEND SOME MONEY TED! GET IT DONE!

I don't really want to digress about his wiping technique but the reality is that deserves its own thread. Suffice it to say, he's not using all the tools available to him when he holds the TP with just his thumb and index finger. Sometimes, you just have to dive into free agency, grab a huge handful of luxurious triple ply and go to town.

[Carolina_Packer]

TT sitting on the crapper gives a whole new meaning to Senior Bowl.