MCGINN---NEW JSO ARTICLES..........THE BLAME FALLS ON

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/blame-for-underachieving-season-falls-on-mike-mccarthy-ted-thompson-b99656523z1-366325731.html

[Smidgeon]

McClickbait is an idiot.

[Bretsky]

this is an interesting read that the rats will pick apart.

I find it interesting that the two NFC teams left standing made some anti TT like moves in acquiring short terms help with vets that helped them get there

Plenty of ways to skin a cat and if we don't get it done again we'll soon be nothing more than A FART IN THE WIND

[Striker]

And the winner for "no duh" article of the month goes to...

[wist43]

Excellent article... I agree with just about everything he said.

It's one thing for homers not to want to hear criticism, but to spit on honest critiques... that's just burying your head in the sand.

TT needs to fix the mess at ILB, TE, and on the OL; MM needs to get back to running the offense; they need to be tougher on the players - like Lacy; TT needs to get his head out of his ass and bring a vet or two to fill holes and provide some leadership.

Things that won't get fixed - dunderdummy is here for life; and our soft approach to defense and running the ball will never change. Still, with the right changes, we can still win a SB with this regime. The rub is - changes... a leopard doesn't change his spots, so while I say we can win, I'm not convinced TT/MM will do what is necessary to get there.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think the article was pretty spot on. It's interesting how we are already seeing MM respond to the criticisms. I expect to see TT make a few small changes as well, namely I expect to see somebody brought in at TE in FA.

[Joemailman]

A fair article, if bit obvious. There is some irony in it though. On one hand it criticizes the Packers for being unwilling to change. Yet it criticizes MM for making changes with the coaching staff that as it turns out were counter-productive. Sometimes changes don't lead to progress. That said, we've already seen some changes. MM has already made some changes to the offensive coaching staff, and there may be more changes. He's said he will be calling the plays from here on out. And he publicly called out Lacy, a highly uncharacteristic thing for him to do. Hopefully this year's changes work better than last year's changes.

[Patler]

Do I understand correctly?

Is he suggesting that when a team under performs, we should blame the guy who is responsible for player acquisition and the guy who assembles the staff, determines who plays and is the controlling force for the part of the team that played the worst?

I thought it was the grounds crew and the person in charge of ticket sales. That was quite an analysis by McGinn. He has convinced me!

Be honest, was there anything in the article that has not been brought up on here?

[Patler]

There is some irony in it though. On one hand it criticizes the Packers for being unwilling to change. Yet it criticizes MM for making changes with the coaching staff that as it turns out were counter-productive. Sometimes changes don't lead to progress. That said, we've already seen some changes. MM has already made some changes to the offensive coaching staff, and there may be more changes. He's said he will be calling the plays from here on out. And he publicly called out Lacy, a highly uncharacteristic thing for him to do. Hopefully this year's changes work better than last year's changes.

All good points.

[Joemailman]

Do I understand correctly?

Is he suggesting that when a team under performs, we should blame the guy who is responsible for player acquisition and the guy who assembles the staff, determines who plays and is the controlling force for the part of the team that played the worst?

I thought it was the grounds crew and the person in charge of ticket sales. That was quite an analysis by McGinn. He has convinced me!

Be honest, was there anything in the article that has not been brought up on here?

No. A number of us have been saying for a while that the changes made to the offensive coaching staff were a disaster. And if I'm not mistaken, there may have been a person or two here over the years who have suggested TT should do more in free agency. Of course, his target audience is the casual fan who reads the JSO for Packer information. Not people like us with thousands of posts in a Packer fan forum run by a crazy Mexican.

[texaspackerbacker]

I normally don't like McGinn, but he really nails it in this article. I've been saying for years, Ted simply doesn't maximize things. We have the world's greatest QB, and he has put together a mediocre team around him. Rodgers has performed at a high enough level that Thompson has gotten a lot of undeserved praise. Well, this year it caught up with him and the Packers. McCarthy I have not criticized until recently. I liked the high energy pass first offense, etc.; We had been winning, and I blamed Thompson for not winning even more. This year, however, McCarthy succumbed to the fools saying "run first" - you just can't do that with an O Line like we have, and it's stupid to run first when you have Aaron Rodgers at QB. Also, the Janis thing - I and others have been wanting him to get on the field a helluva lot more; if he doesn't know certain things, that's on the coaches. Other talented young wideouts all over the league do well in their first season, much less second. The play calling did not improve when McCarthy took it back; The game management in general was faulty - stuff we basically got away with in past years.

I doubt either Thompson or McCarthy are going anyplace, so the only hope is that they themselves realize the things the article points out and shape up on their own. Optimist that I am, though, I doubt it. On the good side, though, we aren't that far away; Getting Nelson back and hopefully finally using Janis along with Capers' D and improvement of the young DBs there; Addition by subtraction of Raji; All of that could quickly get the Packers back to the top.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Yeah, I thought it was a good article if for nothing else it brings attention to MM and TT. People seldom change if they are untouchable and think they can do no wrong. I believe criticism here can be a stepping stone to change, and change is good, especially in the NFL.

[Patler]

I doubt either TT or MM cares at all what McGinn thinks or writes. Nothing from McGinn will cause them to change, or even consider changing.

[Pugger]

I could understand the angst if the team stunk. IMO a 10-6 regular season record and participating in the divisional rounds isn't the disaster some think. It is disappointing we didn't have the season we all hoped for but I say it would be rather rash to make a change right now. Most of the time when a team is a perennial playoff contender with a decent core of players and elite QB that GM and HC are not on the hot seat. And I don't think that is the situation here either. There aren't many teams with our record of success over the past 10 years. The Steelers are a team with continued success similar to ours. They have been in the playoffs almost as often as we have but have lost some heartbreakers too. However, I'm not hearing many calls for Tomlin's head from Steeler Nation if you read their forums.

[pbmax]

McGinn has really reached the limits of his knowledge of football. He quite literally has nothing left.

EDIT: I take that back in one instance of his McCarty critique:

In summary, I still can't believe a team with Rodgers taking every snap and that much talent could lose six times in the regular season, could fail to win another NFC North Division crown and isn't playing Sunday in the NFC Championship Game for the right to reclaim the Lombardi Trophy that was well within its means.

1. That statement makes some sense. Now how about an article exploring WHY? That would be useful.

2. "Bench Adams and Lacy". Pretty sure that happened. Why they didn't stay benched was on display during the Redskins game for Adams and during the Cardinals game for Lacy. But let's face it, benching Lacy wasn't going to drop weight for him in season.

3. Ryan over Palmer? Maybe. Ryan wasn't a world beater he was a 4th round pick who was not where he should be and allowed two passing TDs because of coverage confusion. Was it a lock he would be better than Palmer by year's end? And didn't this short of happen anyway?

4. Barclay and Sitton over Tretter. The entire O coaching staff should be docked a week's pay for the Sitton decision. Barclay over Tretter? Tretter spent precious little time at tackle and Barclay had all season to get more rehab after surgery. He was the backup tackle since camp. It was obvious early he wasn't the same but was that rehab or a permanent drop in production? Mid-season he was somehow passable filling in for Bach at LT for a game. I grade this one half correct.

5. Hayward over Rollins. Maybe. Hayward was playing pretty well at the end of the year. But he may not belong at outside corner.

[pbmax]

McGinn on Thompson:

1. Let's remember this sentence, before going onto criticisms.

In summary, I still can't believe a team with Rodgers taking every snap and that much talent could lose six times in the regular season, could fail to win another NFC North Division crown and isn't playing Sunday in the NFC Championship Game for the right to reclaim the Lombardi Trophy that was well within its means.

So Ted must be doing a good job, right?

2. Mason Foster. The Packers impaired team offense just torched the Redskins D for 35 points and should have had more. How good is this guy again? Did he single-handedly revive Eddie Lacy's season?

3. Not having a season ending press conference and not being available for coaches getting their pink slips, but instead going to the East West Shrine game. I do think Thompson lags in the PR department and that probably does wear on McCarthy. But Bobby has speculated in the past that Ted has insisted on coaching changes but generally leaves things to McCarthy to decide on. Isn't that happening again? And if you are in charge of selecting your coaching staff, shouldn't that guy be in the press conference?

Should the Packers have had Eliot Wolf available to help Mike explain why he didn't go for two?

4. McCarthy blames Ted.

According to several sources, McCarthy is fed up with his boss' unwillingness to take a chance and reinforce the roster with veteran players that might be unknown to the Packers but have the talent to contribute.

Its plural and its not team specified. Who are the sources? Do they actually know Mike or Ted, or are they just speculating on overhead comments?

And if the talent was enough to win a Super Bowl (especially enough talent that Bob predicted that losing Nelson wouldn't slow down the team), exactly what are they lacking?

[pbmax]

1. McCarthy does have several items on his to do list. None of that is discussed here until the end in the section on Nelson. So this critique fits, but all he offers are comparison's to other teams. I can do that. Red does that. What are you giving us?

2. List of coaches McCarthy non-Super Bowl streak is compared to (in most cases, favorably):
a. Landry
b. Belichick
c. Cowher
d. Tomlin
e. Payton
f. Holmgren
g. Ditka
h. Gruden
i. Billick

Seems like a recommendation. Is a five year Super Bowl drought actually a reason to fire someone?

And if he doesn't like Ted's Director of College Scouting approach, who should hire and fire? And who would be the next coach?

[woodbuck27]

A fair article, if bit obvious. There is some irony in it though. On one hand it criticizes the Packers for being unwilling to change. Yet it criticizes MM for making changes with the coaching staff that as it turns out were counter-productive. Sometimes changes don't lead to progress. That said, we've already seen some changes. MM has already made some changes to the offensive coaching staff, and there may be more changes. He's said he will be calling the plays from here on out. And he publicly called out Lacy, a highly uncharacteristic thing for him to do. Hopefully this year's changes work better than last year's changes.

Yes.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/blame-for-underachieving-season-falls-on-mike-mccarthy-ted-thompson-b99656523z1-366325731.html

This article is hard hitting reporting.

It's well supported with 'the facts'.

The authoe nails it.

Many Packerrats will decline it's TRUTH.

Those same Packerrats will continue imagining that TT and MM are exactly what Packer Nation deserves for next season's Super Bowl run.

I can 'only' imagine how they believe that is truly possible..

PLEASE: **Read the bottom of the article. Well here it is and please think TRUTHFULLY and how Packer GM Ted Thompson is. How TT too often doesn't 'manage. on a full basis (day to day to ... on a 24-7 week to week and month to month basis....like Bill Belichick does to give the team he loves the edge. They'll go back to the Big Show in two weeks because of Bill Belichicks dedication to it all.Not just who he might steal in the NFL DRAFT. A GM has to do a lot more than TT shows us.

** Here:

" What they need less of is the same old same old.

Hockey's Wayne Gretzky once said, "You miss 100% of the shots you never take."

In other words, no guts, no glory.

Most successful institutions slip without a vigorous, healthy critique of leadership and the introduction of fresh perspective. History might be weighing against another championship for McCarthy and Thompson, but it doesn't have to turn out that way.

The future is up to them. " Fr. Article above

[mraynrand]

I hate articles like this. It's like listening to Wist on his soap box yelling through his megaphone about how terrible the 2-4 is, all the while ignoring any and all facts that counter his idiotic banal droning. McGinn is in rare form in this article, stating the obvious, and completely ignoring reality.

Stupid Quotes (selected, because most of the article is stupid):

"Is it second-guessing McCarthy now to say Jeff Janis should have been playing earlier and a lot more than he did?
McCarthy had better know who his best players are. This year, he didn't."
- McCarthy knew who his best players were and they were 1) on IR 2) On the bench 3) Fat 4) Walking wounded
- McGinn second guesses because Janis caught a few passes in the playoffs because there was no one else to throw to. Had other guys been healthy, he Rodgers would have thrown to them. McGinn ignores that Janis kept running the wrong route. McGinn says he didn't watch practice, but after the JS alienated themselves and lost access, he is just throwing a tantrum. Cheap bullshit

"Make people accountable. Sit down Adams, or Eddie Lacy, for that matter."

-Bob - perhaps you missed their benchings. Perhaps you forgot the spark from Crockett in Detroit. But wait, aren't these the best players. Or perhaps you 'know better' than Stubby even though you're absent from practice. Fool.

"With Sitton's inadequacies too much to overcome, the Packers basically threw away a fifth straight NFC North championship."

So what? This hurts the Packer exactly how?

"And, really, why did it take 11 games for McCarthy to realize that inside linebacker Nate Palmer couldn't play and that Jake Ryan was the better option?"

perhaps if you paid attention to the game, you might have notices that Ryan was hurt and was nursing a hammy or something and was on the bike/running slow at AZ. maybe, just maybe Ryan wasn't full strength yet. Also, he's a rookie in a complex defense and when he was on the field, he was the target of the other team. Hmmmm

"You might argue the decision to play Casey Hayward ahead of Quinten Rollins was flawed, but that's at least debatable. The others aren't."

Says you. Bob, you're debatable.

"Given the decisions made by McCarthy over the course of the year, it would be difficult to trust his judgment."

As opposed to every other year in the past decade filled with playoff appearances, NFCC games and a Superbowl.

"Make the coaches burn the midnight oil getting a new player up to speed. Let players like Mike Daniels and T.J. Lang see that we're in this thing together trying to get better. Bring in a successful veteran to show young players new ways to prepare and practice."

If he thinks the coaches don't burn the 'midnight oil' he is a fool, especially since on his chats he routinely points out how much time these guys put in. Idiot. Is there evidence that Lang and Daniels were frustrated by the coaches? If so, then print their quotes or shut the fuck up.

"In truth, Thompson operates like a glorified director of college scouting."

This is just Petulant. As though the Packer's way under Thompson wasn't working. And as though no FAs were ever brought in. Bob should check out the success rate of other teams bringing in free agents - other than a LB who was awful for the Redskins' bottom rated run defense (I would refer him to NE's stable of outstanding WRs brought in through the draft and FA over the years.

"As for Jordy Nelson, seldom in NFL history has an offense folded quite like Green Bay's did this season in the absence of one starter."

Good thing it was just one starter. Good thing Cobb didn't separate his shoulder then blow out a lung at AZ, Adams didn't sprain his ankle and knee at Washington, Monty didn't break his ankle, The O-line didn't miss game after game, Lang didn't play with a ruined shoulder, Bact a knee, Sitton a back, Lindsley whatever knocked him to, Bulaga an knee and ankle, etc. etc.

"Look at how the Patriots, Broncos and Panthers coped with an injury list on offense probably more severe than the Packers'."

Maybe Bob should have watched the Patriots when all their weapons were out. Or watched the anemic Broncos offense the past few weeks. NE was saved by getting Amadala and Gronk back.. Meanwhiel the Packers lost Adams and Cobb. Is this loser out of his mind?


OK, I'm already bored by this moronic 'hit job' by McGinn. This is really a low point - a collection of myopic, ranting, click bait bullshit from a columnist who used to be pretty decent. What an epic fail. What a joke.

[Rutnstrut]

Great article. You know why it riles up the homers? Because most of it is spot on.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I haven't read the McGinn article yet so I will be able to analyze it without bias.

After Jordy went down, McGinn wrote a "what me worry" article telling Packer fans to relax because TT had larded the roster with Super Bowl ready talent.

I give his latest study a B+. He supports his criticisms of TT well with very credible detail and examples.

[mraynrand]

Great article. You know why it riles up the homers? Because most of it is spot on.

that's about as convincing an argument as Bob's

[pbmax]

The point of the article is apparently anything short of the Super Bowl is failure.

I have yet to hear anyone with a plan to improve on the performance that has lead to such lofty expectations. Unless you think 10-6 happens by accident with QBs like Rodgers.

If you think that, I suggest you look at Big Ben, Rivers and Brees.

[red]

national media is reading a bit more into the story and saying that M3 is fed up with TT and his approach

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/01/24/report-mccarthy-fed-up-with-thompsons-approach-to-free-agency/

[red]

the last 3 paragraphs


By never having the accountability that comes from having a traditional owner, Thompson and McCarthy can keep doing what they do, at least until quarterback Aaron Rodgers retires and the team isn’t an instant contender every year.

Packers fans should want something more than merely contending for the balance of Rodgers’ career. Arguably the best quarterback of the last decade, the Packers should have more than one Super Bowl appearance during his career.

Whatever happens in 2016, the Packers are running out of chances with Rodgers.

hell fucking yes floria

[woodbuck27]

The HOMER's are satisfied with even a second place finich in the NFCN.

Their team went 1-1 in the playoffs.

That's not losing.

That's a tie and doesn/t MM call it 'not to lose'?.... .500 ball ...just one loss and what about that win !

If Jordy Nelson had just been there ...the Packers woulda....coulda....shoulda.

If certain assistant coach's had just done their job and MM had all that confidence in them too... it's simply disappointing....they let him down.MM counted on them to come through. A real shame.

Next year ....the same Ole........ and the next...... and the next......and

[pbmax]

Well, look at how changing GMs, coaches and teams has won more than one for Peyton Manning!

And Brady, with the same coach and GM stability, has won 5 just by accident, obviously.

[pbmax]

Homers are not satisfied.

Homers are convinced none of the doubters have a better plan.

Any idiot with an internet connection, phone line or pen, paper and stamps can claim the coach or GM should change or be fired. None of them have a viable, alternate plan so far.

BTW, add in Brees to that list above of QBs served poorly by stability.

[mraynrand]

Moon, Brees, Fouts, and Marino wish they had someone with the insight of Florio weighing in on their careers I bet.

Probably Houston, New Orleans, San Diego and Miami fans, like Packer fans, should want something more than merely contending, because it's obvious that they don't. Homers.

[Striker]

Homers are not satisfied.

Homers are convinced none of the doubters have a better plan.

Any idiot with an internet connection, phone line or pen, paper and stamps can claim the coach or GM should change or be fired. None of them have a viable, alternate plan so far.

BTW, add in Brees to that list above of QBs served poorly by stability.

^^^^

I mean, I always thought it was better to fire the coach every year you don't win the Super Bowl.

But I guess it's better to be flashy and "trying" instead of having sustained success.

[pbmax]

national media is reading a bit more into the story and saying that M3 is fed up with TT and his approach

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/01/24/report-mccarthy-fed-up-with-thompsons-approach-to-free-agency/

If Florio is right, why isn't this the lead in the story? A rift between the football org and the coaching staff?

That should be the headline, no?

McGinn has nothing or it would BE the story.

Better question to ask: has McCarthy dropped the draft and development mantra? If they really had a falling out, he would stop repeating the company line. He was still doing it this season.

[woodbuck27]

If Florio is right, why isn't this the lead in the story? A rift between the football org and the coaching staff?

That should be the headline, no?

McGinn has nothing or it would BE the story.

Better question to ask: has McCarthy dropped the draft and development mantra? If they really had a falling out, he would stop repeating the company line. He was still doing it this season.

Let's face it

Florio took a sound bite and ............ran with it.

Here we see the whole mess up front and personal.

The media writes to Packer Nation..and asks for accountability from TT and MM.

Isn't that what any Packer fan should desire?


GO PACK GO !

I'll admit this much. It sure appears as if MM knows it's time to do something significant to shake things up.

[red]

If Florio is right, why isn't this the lead in the story? A rift between the football org and the coaching staff?

That should be the headline, no?

McGinn has nothing or it would BE the story.

Better question to ask: has McCarthy dropped the draft and development mantra? If they really had a falling out, he would stop repeating the company line. He was still doing it this season.

i mentioned during m3's last presser that it seemed like he took a big shot at TT when he was talking about how clay needs to be outside

[red]

Well, look at how changing GMs, coaches and teams has won more than one for Peyton Manning!

And Brady, with the same coach and GM stability, has won 5 just by accident, obviously.

accept IMO the pats have maybe the best coach since st. vince, and we might be handcuffed with an average at best HC

[pbmax]

accept IMO the pats have maybe the best coach since st. vince, and we might be handcuffed with an average at best HC

I think you overestimate what an average coach is. Who was available this year who is better?

[red]

don't know, but IMO, it wouldn't take much to find better

you have a 50/50 shot at finding better, or worse imo

[pbmax]

don't know, but IMO, it wouldn't take much to find better

you have a 50/50 shot at finding better, or worse imo

C'mon. There were 10 coaching changes in 2006 with McCarthy. Two of them were worth a damn, maybe three. Your chances are NEVER 50% in the coach sweepstakes unless your previous hire was Tomsula.

[Joemailman]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.Not only that, he went for two at the end of the game for the win.

[red]

C'mon. There were 10 coaching changes in 2006 with McCarthy. Two of them were worth a damn, maybe three. Your chances are NEVER 50% in the coach sweepstakes unless your previous hire was Tomsula.

and IMO, a lot of those coaches would probably still be coaching if they had a-rod and a system that doesn't believe in change

[red]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.

yup, because it takes a special kind of blind homer to see that him and M3 are on the same level as far as coaching goes

:roll:

[pbmax]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.

Cleary Robert Kraft is not demanding enough or Bill would be held accountable.

[Pugger]

Not only that, he went for two at the end of the game for the win.

No, he needed the 2 to go into OT.

[Joemailman]

Cleary Robert Kraft is not demanding enough or Bill would be held accountable.

There is a 50% chance Tomsula could do as well.

[pbmax]

Not only that, he went for two at the end of the game for the win.

? For the tie?

Because he went for it on 4th down the previous series and didn't kick a FG because he expected trouble with scoring again.

[red]

you people just go on being happy we win 10 games a year like our coach is

thats all packer fans seem to want anyways

[RonWolfGOAT]

Fantastic article.

Remember when Ted didn't sign Owen Daniels? I wonder if a smart veteran like himself would block for an onside kick when told you. Huh.

[pbmax]

Fantastic article.

Remember when Ted didn't sign Owen Daniels? I wonder if a smart veteran like himself would block for an onside kick when told you. Huh.

How do you know Daniels wanted to sign with the Packers over the Broncos and Kubiak?

Kubiak has been his only Head Coach.

[woodbuck27]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.


Joe is this statement a TRUTH or not? :

Bill Belichick is regarded by a vast majority of the media as..... the finest Head Coach in the NFL.

If you disagree with the above statement you have an argumnnt.

Now Joe: if the above statement is accurate in your experience?



YOU ..... know how Belichick has kept his job.

[pbmax]

and IMO, a lot of those coaches would probably still be coaching if they had a-rod and a system that doesn't believe in change


Buffalo Bills – Dick Jauron; replaced Mike Mularkey, who resigned after the 2005 season
Detroit Lions – Rod Marinelli; replaced interim head coach Dick Jauron who replaced Steve Mariucci who was fired following Thanksgiving Day during the 2005 season.
Green Bay Packers – Mike McCarthy; replaced Mike Sherman
Houston Texans – Gary Kubiak; replaced Dom Capers
Kansas City Chiefs – Herman Edwards; replaced Dick Vermeil who retired following the 2005 season
Minnesota Vikings – Brad Childress; replaced Mike Tice
New Orleans Saints – Sean Payton; replaced Jim Haslett
New York Jets – Eric Mangini; replaced Herman Edwards
Oakland Raiders – Art Shell; replaced Norv Turner
St. Louis Rams – Scott Lineman;

Who else on this list do you want?

[Pugger]

you people just go on being happy we win 10 games a year like our coach is

thats all packer fans seem to want anyways

Gee, the last time we won 10 games things turned out okay. And that was the last time we won 10 games with MM as our HC.

[mraynrand]

Fantastic article.

Remember when Ted didn't sign Owen Daniels? I wonder if a smart veteran like himself would block for an onside kick when told you. Huh.

This is pretty lame. A ten year veteran probably wouldn't be blocking on ST. Still if you want 48 receptions for 500 yards, I guess he's your guy. Oh wait, those are almost Identical numbers to Rodgers, and he didn't cost as much. So what was your point?

[red]

i just hear shopko is going to start selling those "2015 green bay packers nfl participant" t-shirts all you people have been waiting to buy up and wear proudly

[red]

Buffalo Bills – Dick Jauron; replaced Mike Mularkey, who resigned after the 2005 season
Detroit Lions – Rod Marinelli; replaced interim head coach Dick Jauron who replaced Steve Mariucci who was fired following Thanksgiving Day during the 2005 season.
Green Bay Packers – Mike McCarthy; replaced Mike Sherman
Houston Texans – Gary Kubiak; replaced Dom Capers
Kansas City Chiefs – Herman Edwards; replaced Dick Vermeil who retired following the 2005 season
Minnesota Vikings – Brad Childress; replaced Mike Tice
New Orleans Saints – Sean Payton; replaced Jim Haslett
New York Jets – Eric Mangini; replaced Herman Edwards
Oakland Raiders – Art Shell; replaced Norv Turner
St. Louis Rams – Scott Lineman;

Who else on this list do you want?

and i'm saying if any of those clowns had been chosen to be the HC in green bay and would have gotten favre followed by rodgers, with TT and murphy as his bosses, they would still probably be employed by the packers, and i woul bet more then a few of them could have won a super bowl with the same teams mccarthy had

[mraynrand]

and i'm saying if any of those clowns had been chosen to be the HC in green bay and would have gotten favre followed by rodgers, with TT and murphy as his bosses, they would still probably be employed by the packers, and i woul bet more then a few of them could have won a super bowl with the same teams mccarthy had

Sure, if you believe McCarthy had nothing to do with developing Rodgers or any of the other Packer players, etc. etc. 'Discussing' things with you is a waste of time. Cheerio.

[red]

like you fucking add anything useful at all to this place

and its just like dealing with anyone on this board when anything even remotely negative has to be said about the team

everything is always puppies and flowers around here as far as the team goes, and anyone who say otherwise get chastised

but your right, its not worth trying to talk about anything around here anymore if its not with the vast majority of believers

[Striker]

This is pretty lame. A ten year veteran probably wouldn't be blocking on ST. Still if you want 48 receptions for 500 yards, I guess he's your guy. Oh wait, those are almost Identical numbers to Rodgers, and he didn't cost as much. So what was your point?

That TT dared to trade Brett Favre so any chance he gets to rip him is more than enough for him.

Someone else that I know IRL made the Owen Daniels point today. Even though RR and Quarless had provided similar production when the Packers took a look at Daniels.

But hey, when you have a "down' year, you get all this wonderful hindsight GMing.

[Striker]

you people just go on being happy we win 10 games a year like our coach is

thats all packer fans seem to want anyways

Yep. I'm sure they all sit around their offices and say "Gee guys, how can we be just exactly above average this season. Because fuck the Super Bowl. We want to win 10 games and be done with it".

[Bretsky]

A few thoughts; my goal is to win a title every year. I do consider the season a failure when we don't.
I cant get on the MM is a bad coach train though; on my end, TT has let us down some.

Hoody Genius is elite. What coaches do you clearly take over MM ? My guess is Pete Carroll might be considered the next best. Then who...Tomlin ? Again, I find it hard to separate MM with the next best head NFL coaches after Carroll.

From that list, I might take Payton over MM; truth be told I would not be surprised if he coaches GB someday. We had the job he wanted,after all

I'm not defending TT for leaving the cupboard dry at TE; look at the list of FA's we could have had last year

I hope TT decides to utilize more means than just the draft...and undrafted or unwanted free agents, in the upcoming season

[ThunderDan]

you people just go on being happy we win 10 games a year like our coach is

thats all packer fans seem to want anyways

Ron Rivera had 1 winning season in his first 4 years in Carolina. Should he have been kept?

[call_me_ishmael]

The point of the article is apparently anything short of the Super Bowl is failure.

I have yet to hear anyone with a plan to improve on the performance that has lead to such lofty expectations. Unless you think 10-6 happens by accident with QBs like Rodgers.

If you think that, I suggest you look at Big Ben, Rivers and Brees.

2 of these are not like the other. And the other happens to play in the most competitive division for the past several years. Rodgers, Big Ben, Brady and Peyton have higher expectations.

[ThunderDan]

2 of these are not like the other. And the other happens to play in the most competitive division for the past several years. Rodgers, Big Ben, Brady and Peyton have higher expectations.

None of those play in the NFC west.

[call_me_ishmael]

don't know, but IMO, it wouldn't take much to find better

you have a 50/50 shot at finding better, or worse imo

This is seriously insane. And that article by Florio was terrible, too. At least McGinn's piece was reasonable and factual.

[Bretsky]

The point of the article is apparently anything short of the Super Bowl is failure.

I have yet to hear anyone with a plan to improve on the performance that has lead to such lofty expectations. Unless you think 10-6 happens by accident with QBs like Rodgers.

If you think that, I suggest you look at Big Ben, Rivers and Brees.



Rodgers is/was widely considered the best player at the most important position in the NFL. He's Lebron James in football. Add a shit division to he big picture and it's fair to expect over .500 every year as long as he's surrounded by average, at best, talent. Lebron makes the playoffs; so does Rodgers. Rodgers is at another level than the players you mention above IMO. Honestly I"m surprised you'd even bring RIvers into that sentence.

[call_me_ishmael]

None of those play in the NFC west.

Bengals, Ravens and Steelers might have something to say about that. By the time Arizona was good, the niners imploded. Never more than two great teams. Bengal, Steelers and Ravens have been in a blood bath the past handful or longer years.

[pbmax]

and i'm saying if any of those clowns had been chosen to be the HC in green bay and would have gotten favre followed by rodgers, with TT and murphy as his bosses, they would still probably be employed by the packers, and i woul bet more then a few of them could have won a super bowl with the same teams mccarthy had

But even the guys with positives are a crap shoot. What did Marinelli do with the Lions offense? Its an insult to tire fires to compare them to his offenses.

Linehan (!@#!% Auto Correct!) was a competent coordinator but hasn't gotten a sniff at HC since. Who does he get to run his defense?

What do Art Shell, Eric Mangini or Herm Edwards know about putting together a passing game and developing a QB?

[ThunderDan]

Bengals, Ravens and Steelers might have something to say about that. By the time Arizona was good, the niners imploded. Never more than two great teams. Bengal, Steelers and Ravens have been in a blood bath the past handful or longer years.

I'll give you Pitt and Ravens before this year. Cin is a stumper to me. Can't do anything in the playoffs. Arizona has only had 2 losing seasons in the last 9 years (that includes two years at 8-8).

[pbmax]

Rodgers is/was widely considered the best player at the most important position in the NFL. He's Lebron James in football. Add a shit division to he big picture and it's fair to expect over .500 every year as long as he's surrounded by average, at best, talent. Lebron makes the playoffs; so does Rodgers. Rodgers is at another level than the players you mention above IMO. Honestly I"m surprised you'd even bring RIvers into that sentence.

Rivers has as much talent as any of them, even if now he is older and declining. Maybe Brees too. But each was as talented as Rodgers previously and Rivers never even had one big playoff success.

Brees had one year like Rodgers had.

No one has had it easier than the Patriots in the AFC East, unless it was the Colts in the AFC South. While it might not be the AFC North or the NFC West (now), the Packers Division has been closely contested.

[Fritz]

Belichick has now failed to win the Super Bowl 10 out of 11 years. Even though he has a great QB. How does he keep his job? They can do better.


Arizona got absolutely crushed in the NFC Championship game yesterday. My guess is that there is some kind of Bob McGinn out west there who will write an article for the local paper containing a withering criticism of the coach and the GM, who so obviously failed to get the Cards to a Super Bowl despite a Hall of Fame receiver and a Pro Bowl quarterback.

And Carson Palmer is getting old now. Time is running out in Arizona.

[Bossman641]

i just hear shopko is going to start selling those "2015 green bay packers nfl participant" t-shirts all you people have been waiting to buy up and wear proudly

I dunno about you but I've never once seen a Packers fan wear a "20XX NFC North Division Champ" shirt or hat. Maybe back in the mid 90's.

This whole argument that if you don't want McCarthy fired then you must be happy winning 10 games every year and losing in the playoffs is asinine.

[mraynrand]

At least McGinn's piece was reasonable and factual.

I'll give you factual - he generally got team records, transactions and the spelling of names right.

[mraynrand]

Rodgers is/was widely considered the best player at the most important position in the NFL. He's Lebron James in football. Add a shit division to he big picture and it's fair to expect over .500 every year as long as he's surrounded by average, at best, talent. Lebron makes the playoffs; so does Rodgers. Rodgers is at another level than the players you mention above IMO. Honestly I"m surprised you'd even bring RIvers into that sentence.

This is the same view as Red and so many others make. You treat Rodgers as though he's some kind of pre-packaged MVP, HOF QB that the Packers bought in the store and threw out on the field, as though the coaches have nothing to do with his development, the schemes he runs, The players around him, the defense on the other side, or any of the million little things that have to be assembled to make a team work. Of course he has his own drive, development and competitiveness that is necessary to his success, but there's a good chance without the Packers and Stubby, he might be just an average QB out there, maybe even an Alex Smith.

On the other hand, acknowledging the guy's talent level - and the Packer's continued success, you have the draft order effect, where the Packers, unlike other teams that drop into oblivion for a year or two or ten or twenty, don't routinely get top 5 picks - so they can pick a dominant game-changer like a Von Miller. I dunno, maybe you'd like a few of those 2-14 seasons. If so, you should enjoy watching the Browns.

[mraynrand]

^^^^

I mean, I always thought it was better to fire the coach every year you don't win the Super Bowl.

But I guess it's better to be flashy and "trying" instead of having sustained success.

Cleveland holds it's GMs and coaches accountable every year - sometimes they fire two GMs/year. That's the kind of accountability that Red wants and that leads to a Super Bowl win EVERY YEAR! YEAH!

[Patler]

Wasn't a big part of the problem this year that AR didn't play like AR? McGinn and most of his cronies have acknowledged this. Expectations for the team are based on the play of Rodgers. If the team should have a winning record because of Rodgers, is that dependent on the quality of Rodgers' (or is it "Rodgers's") performance? When he has a very "off" year, isn't it a necessary result that the team will underachieve?

[mraynrand]

Bob McGinn would never use 'irregardless'

[Patler]

How much better is Aaron Rodgers than Tom Brady? How much better is Aaron Rodgers then Tom Brady has been over his career? Bill Belichick has won a single Super Bowl in the time period that Mike McCarthy has been with the Packers. Essentially that covers the timeframe since Tom Brady has become the future Hall of Fame quarterback we know.

If Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson are failures for not winning more super Bowls with Aaron Rodgers as their quarterback but Bill Belichick is the best in the world while achieving a similar result, it must mean that Aaron Rodgers is a vastly better quarterback than Tom Brady ever was.

I don't believe that.

[mraynrand]

How much better is Aaron Rodgers than Tom Brady? How much better is Aaron Rodgers then Tom Brady has been over his career? Bill Belichick has won a single Super Bowl in the time period that Mike McCarthy has been with the Packers. Essentially that covers the timeframe since Tom Brady has become the future Hall of Fame quarterback we know.

If Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson are failures for not winning more super Bowls with Aaron Rodgers as their quarterback but Bill Belichick is the best in the world while achieving a similar result, it must mean that Aaron Rodgers is a vastly better quarterback than Tom Brady ever was.

I don't believe that.

I feel sorry for Rodgers - he has carried the entire weight of the Packer organization for eight years - from scheduling events in the Atrium to cleaning out jockstraps to designing the offensive and defensive schemes, to drafting players, to scouting pro personnel and ignoring them, he has done it all the while Stubby just gets fat at the Golden Corral.

[Scott Campbell]

I'd prefer we fire the entire front office and coaching staff after each loss.

[pbmax]

Maybe if coaches cross train by handling a different position group each week, we could develop a deep coaching bench.

[wist43]

McCarthy gets the credit for developing Rodgers and having a very effective passing game over a long period of time.

By the same token, McCarthy is almost entirely to blame for the offense's dismal performance this year. The buttons he pushed in the offseason were all the wrong buttons - and given his steadfast refusal to change the way he rosters offensive linemen, and his refusal to incorporate more power running - when the passing game couldn't be relied on, there was no running game to fall back on.

It seems to be in McCarthy's nature to stick with what isn't working even when it's been shown not to work. Can't say what his illogic is to stay the course, but he surely is stubborn about admitting when something isn't working.

Nothing is going to change with how they roster offensive linemen, and their approach to running the ball. Everything has to build off of the passing game - including the defense. In terms of approach to winning on both sides of the ball, I think it is simply too one-dimensional. I don't see that changing at all.

[Patler]

I think people have gone off the deep end confusing goals or objectives with standards or requirements. Of course the goal should be a Super Bowl victory for the Packers every year. Reality tells us this will not happen.

The following is from another thread, but I think it applies here as well:


D'Amato asks this question:

And you have to ask yourself: How many Super Bowls would Bill Belichick have won with this team over the last 10 years?

I would answer with another question: how many did BB win with his own teams from from 2005 until last year, teams that had Tom Brady as their QB, teams that had even better records that MM's teams, including one that was 16-0. The answer is 0 until last year. Does D'Amato think the Packers have been better the past 10 years, or that Rodgers has been better than Brady?

People act like Belichick wins the SB every other year.

If D'Amato believes that Bill Belichick would have won more Super Bowls coaching the Packers than Mike McCarthy has, then he also believes that Bill Belichick would've won more with the Packers than he did with the Patriots. That would have to mean that he also believes the Packers rosters have been significantly better than the Patriots rosters or at least that Aaron Rodgers has been a significantly better quarterback than Tom Brady has been. Yet, the Patriots have been a more successful team than the Packers have been the past 10 years, at least in the terms of wins and losses.

Why does D'Amato's question make any sense at all?

[mraynrand]

By the same token, McCarthy is almost entirely to blame for the offense's dismal performance this year....

Again, you like McGinn and all the others who are excessively critical of Stubby never honestly acknowledge the affect of injuries. Four starting WRs missing at the end of the season, and missing or diminished much of the season. The entire O-line was diminished. Lacy (fat) questionable I suppose could be blamed on Stubby at some level, etc. etc.

To actually make a reasonable argument, show me the team that's lost their top 4 WRs that won the Superbowl. Along with having their top two tackles miss significant time to injury. Along with their top 'Power' running back showing up fat and out of shape, and not getting into shape. Where is this team that wins it all with these things taking place. Who are/were the magical people they brought in to compensate? Just give me a couple of Superbowl winners who have overcome such obstacles and I might take you seriously.

[mraynrand]

I think people have gone off the deep end confusing goals or objectives with standards or requirements. Of course the goal should be a Super Bowl victory for the Packers every year. Reality tells us this will not happen.

The following is from another thread, but I think it applies here as well:


If D'Amato believes that Bill Belichick would have won more Super Bowls coaching the Packers than Mike McCarthy has, then he also believes that Bill Belichick would've won more with the Packers than he did with the Patriots. That would have to mean that he also believes the Packers rosters have been significantly better than the Patriots rosters or at least that Aaron Rodgers has been a significantly better quarterback than Tom Brady has been. Yet, the Patriots have been a more successful team than the Packers have been the past 10 years, at least in the terms of wins and losses.

Why does D'Amato's question make any sense at all?

this is a great post. Really great. One of the best ever on Packerrats because it concisely points out why all the idiots who constantly make these absurd comparisons and demands of Super Bowl wins are logically flawed. Excellent post Patler. And you can be sure it will be countered with either silence or more absurdity and howling from the likes of Red, Runtstrut, Yellowsnowman, Bertsky and the like.

[Deputy Nutz]

It takes something magical to make it to a Super Bowl and to win a Super Bowl. The Patriots have been to 6 Super Bowls since 2000. That's less than one every other year. It is impressive but they win one almost every four years which is also extremely impressive, but it is not like the Patriots are there every year. They have injuries that they can't over come just like the Packers. They have had season where their defense has to be rebuilt. They have had all of their assistant coaches replaced at some point. The Constant, has been Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. They stay the course just like Stubby and Thompson should.

[woodbuck27]

Is there anyone on this Forum truly wanting Packer Head Coach Mike McCarthy FIRED !??

Isn't it simply about some common sense analysis and follow up orn adjustments.

Isn't he trying to do that?

It's NOT about anything going down all negative in MM's life as a Packer HC.


It's ALL ... ABOUT... the Green Bay Packers properly preparing for a long season in terms of Roster talent and depth....to deal with any adversity......and ultimately and realistically having a REAL CHANCE to properly compete and earn the right for playing to win the SUPER BOWL...and anything below that being somewhat (lesser or more) of a failure.

It's TOTALLY ............ALL ABOUT THIS ....and ....in REALISTIC TERMS..... 'the TRUTH'.

Why we have an honest faith when we shout out:

GO PACKERS ! GO PACK GO !!

[Fritz]

McCarthy gets the credit for developing Rodgers and having a very effective passing game over a long period of time.

By the same token, McCarthy is almost entirely to blame for the offense's dismal performance this year. The buttons he pushed in the offseason were all the wrong buttons - and given his steadfast refusal to change the way he rosters offensive linemen, and his refusal to incorporate more power running - when the passing game couldn't be relied on, there was no running game to fall back on.

It seems to be in McCarthy's nature to stick with what isn't working even when it's been shown not to work. Can't say what his illogic is to stay the course, but he surely is stubborn about admitting when something isn't working.

Nothing is going to change with how they roster offensive linemen, and their approach to running the ball. Everything has to build off of the passing game - including the defense. In terms of approach to winning on both sides of the ball, I think it is simply too one-dimensional. I don't see that changing at all.


The first criticism in boldface is a criticism of a change McCarthy made after the team failed to get to the SB.

The second criticism in boldface is a criticism of McCarthy's unwillingness to change.

I would agree that McCarthy seems a bit slow to pull the trigger on changes, and that can and has hurt this team from time to time. On the flip side, changing it up constantly is no recipe for success, either.

[Carolina_Packer]

The first criticism in boldface is a criticism of a change McCarthy made after the team failed to get to the SB.

The second criticism in boldface is a criticism of McCarthy's unwillingness to change.

I would agree that McCarthy seems a bit slow to pull the trigger on changes, and that can and has hurt this team from time to time. On the flip side, changing it up constantly is no recipe for success, either.

I also wonder if MM and coaches don't become a bit hamstrung when the depth at certain positions might be a first or second year player and not veteran depth as you might see on other teams. Can you win with your own youthful depth? Yes, if they can get up to speed and contribute quickly.

I'm glad we have a cap-minded GM who is always trying to find developmental talent for the back-end of the roster some of whom can ascend, such as Jayrone Elliott. That's one of the brightest examples of sign and develop, and will help keep the cap healthy. That said, I would not be completely opposed to finding someone better than Don Barclay/Josh Walker who do not have the footwork and athleticism to play OT. This is where I would consider getting a veteran for depth. Of course, one could argue that what is available from the free agent market might not be any better or serviceable to provide that depth. This is kind of the same conundrum of the backup QB. If you were talented enough, you'd likely be starting, and what team owner/GM not named Jerry Jones is going to give starter money to ensure backup depth? Personally, I would take a strong look at legit OT's in the 3rd/4th round of this year's draft. If they beat out Bach, so be it. We can still keep him as depth. If it pushes Bach to keep his job, then they have drafted someone who can be a versatile OT and our depth can be drafted depth. Obviously being drafted isn't always a guarantee, but generally, I'd rather take my chances on finding guys like Tretter in the draft, than waiting to see who might be available in the college free agent market after the draft.

[Maxie the Taxi]

^Careful, Carolina, you're flirting with heresy.

[3irty1]

A few thoughts; my goal is to win a title every year. I do consider the season a failure when we don't.
I cant get on the MM is a bad coach train though; on my end, TT has let us down some.

Hoody Genius is elite. What coaches do you clearly take over MM ? My guess is Pete Carroll might be considered the next best. Then who...Tomlin ? Again, I find it hard to separate MM with the next best head NFL coaches after Carroll.

From that list, I might take Payton over MM; truth be told I would not be surprised if he coaches GB someday. We had the job he wanted,after all

I'm not defending TT for leaving the cupboard dry at TE; look at the list of FA's we could have had last year

I hope TT decides to utilize more means than just the draft...and undrafted or unwanted free agents, in the upcoming season

As much as you love the "FA wins superbowls" shtick its always proven hollow. I think Ted did a good job this year, McCarthy and bad luck are the main culprits. Not that he's a bad coach. I'd prefer McCarthy as a coach to both Carroll and Tomlin but there are some guys I'd rather have.

Belichick is obviously a fabulous coach. Maybe even underrated considering his shortcomings as a GM. That is the big disadvantage of BB is that he doesn't play well with others so you'll never have an elite GM and coach at the same time. Take into account his history of punishment for breaking the rules and I can only be mildly envious of the Pats. Still BB is one of the few defensive philosophers of the game and I think history shows this is the best way to get trophies.

I think Sean Payton also compares favorably with McCarthy although the two are so similar its really a matter of taste. Both have that philosopher-coach thing going which has let them succeed with multiples offenses and craft proven game plans. Both are considered great QB-developers. Both great playcallers. Payton probably has a worse record than McCarthy and has also gotten in big trouble for the rules but I'd still prefer him because I think his offenses are diverse and more about mismatches. Everyone in Payton's offenses are like specialists which makes for some mismatches even coming off the bench. McCarthy used to be more willing to build his offense around a player like Finley or Cobb but that's always bit him in the ass with injuries and for the most part he seeks guys to be interchangeable parts. All the WR, TE, and OL need to play all the positions. Might be counter-intuitive but I think Payton's way might be more injury-proof.

I think Ron Rivera has a bunch of potential. He's not that proven but if you were about to start an NFL franchise right now I think he'd be the guy I'd want. "Riverboat Ron" seems to me like a Belichick type coach whos willing to question assumptions and spin defenses that are way more than a sum of their parts. He's equally comfortable with a 4-3 or 3-4. Seems like you give him any unfair advantage and he'll find a way to best leverage it.

Also I think you've got to like what we've seen from Arians so far. Another QB whisperer, perhaps the ultimate players coach, and most importantly a guy who seems to be able assemble a stud staff out of up-and-comers. Just the change he made in putting Fitz in the slot to turn him back into a playmaker shows some insight that other coaches lacked. I don't know if I'd give up McCarthy for Arians as I value the continuity but if I needed a head coach right now I'd rather hire Arians over McCarthy.

[Patler]

I also wonder if MM and coaches don't become a bit hamstrung when the depth at certain positions might be a first or second year player and not veteran depth as you might see on other teams. Can you win with your own youthful depth? Yes, if they can get up to speed and contribute quickly.

I'm glad we have a cap-minded GM who is always trying to find developmental talent for the back-end of the roster some of whom can ascend, such as Jayrone Elliott. That's one of the brightest examples of sign and develop, and will help keep the cap healthy. That said, I would not be completely opposed to finding someone better than Don Barclay/Josh Walker who do not have the footwork and athleticism to play OT. This is where I would consider getting a veteran for depth. Of course, one could argue that what is available from the free agent market might not be any better or serviceable to provide that depth. This is kind of the same conundrum of the backup QB. If you were talented enough, you'd likely be starting, and what team owner/GM not named Jerry Jones is going to give starter money to ensure backup depth? Personally, I would take a strong look at legit OT's in the 3rd/4th round of this year's draft. If they beat out Bach, so be it. We can still keep him as depth. If it pushes Bach to keep his job, then they have drafted someone who can be a versatile OT and our depth can be drafted depth. Obviously being drafted isn't always a guarantee, but generally, I'd rather take my chances on finding guys like Tretter in the draft, than waiting to see who might be available in the college free agent market after the draft.

I do not think you will find many who disagree with that, but, of course, you identified one of the key factors that people want to overlook. Are there really any free-agent tackles available who are any good who could be used as backups?

I think it was one of the pregame shows this year that discussed how bad tackle play had been. One of the commentators was someone I found credible, I don't recall if it was Howie Long, or one of the other former offensive or defensive linemen, but the gist of his comment was that there were a lot of tackles starting this year who, just a few years ago, would've been backups at best. While they didn't mention it, I would point out that Marshall Newhouse started 14 games of the 14 games he played this year for the Giants. I'm not sure there are many on here who would be satisfied with him as the backup left tackle, yet he started all year.

I think Ted Thompson has tried to maintain a steady flow of new blood for the offensive line. I expect he will continue to do so. ome will turn out, some will fail, but hopefully he will find one this year who will be at least a suitable backup left tackle. It is a tough spot to fill, and perhaps the best solution is JC Tretter, just as years ago the best solution was to move Flanagan from the starting center position to left tackle.

[Rutnstrut]

Yep. I'm sure they all sit around their offices and say "Gee guys, how can we be just exactly above average this season. Because fuck the Super Bowl. We want to win 10 games and be done with it".

Probably not. But on the other hand. They probably aren't saying what can we do differently to make us better. Because relying on the same stagnant tactics and HOPING for a better result is just fucking stupid. No one is saying that TT should go out and blow his whole wad on big name FA's. But a few solid vets in key positions can go a long ways.

[Rutnstrut]

this is a great post. Really great. One of the best ever on Packerrats because it concisely points out why all the idiots who constantly make these absurd comparisons and demands of Super Bowl wins are logically flawed. Excellent post Patler. And you can be sure it will be countered with either silence or more absurdity and howling from the likes of Red, Runtstrut, Yellowsnowman, Bertsky and the like.

I will say it again, I don't really care for stubby. But I don't think the team would be real far ahead by firing him. I do think that between stubby's downfalls and TT's MANY downfalls that the greater evil of the two is TT. That is not to say I think TT hasn't done a few good things, he is however very overrated imo.

[Bossman641]

As much as you love the "FA wins superbowls" shtick its always proven hollow. I think Ted did a good job this year, McCarthy and bad luck are the main culprits. Not that he's a bad coach. I'd prefer McCarthy as a coach to both Carroll and Tomlin but there are some guys I'd rather have.

Belichick is obviously a fabulous coach. Maybe even underrated considering his shortcomings as a GM. That is the big disadvantage of BB is that he doesn't play well with others so you'll never have an elite GM and coach at the same time. Take into account his history of punishment for breaking the rules and I can only be mildly envious of the Pats. Still BB is one of the few defensive philosophers of the game and I think history shows this is the best way to get trophies.

I think Sean Payton also compares favorably with McCarthy although the two are so similar its really a matter of taste. Both have that philosopher-coach thing going which has let them succeed with multiples offenses and craft proven game plans. Both are considered great QB-developers. Both great playcallers. Payton probably has a worse record than McCarthy and has also gotten in big trouble for the rules but I'd still prefer him because I think his offenses are diverse and more about mismatches. Everyone in Payton's offenses are like specialists which makes for some mismatches even coming off the bench. McCarthy used to be more willing to build his offense around a player like Finley or Cobb but that's always bit him in the ass with injuries and for the most part he seeks guys to be interchangeable parts. All the WR, TE, and OL need to play all the positions. Might be counter-intuitive but I think Payton's way might be more injury-proof.

I think Ron Rivera has a bunch of potential. He's not that proven but if you were about to start an NFL franchise right now I think he'd be the guy I'd want. "Riverboat Ron" seems to me like a Belichick type coach whos willing to question assumptions and spin defenses that are way more than a sum of their parts. He's equally comfortable with a 4-3 or 3-4. Seems like you give him any unfair advantage and he'll find a way to best leverage it.

Also I think you've got to like what we've seen from Arians so far. Another QB whisperer, perhaps the ultimate players coach, and most importantly a guy who seems to be able assemble a stud staff out of up-and-comers. Just the change he made in putting Fitz in the slot to turn him back into a playmaker shows some insight that other coaches lacked. I don't know if I'd give up McCarthy for Arians as I value the continuity but if I needed a head coach right now I'd rather hire Arians over McCarthy.

I don't disagree with your take. The interesting thing going forward will be to see how Rivera looks in the future. We (and McGinn) are always comparing the Packers to the "it" team right now. A few years ago it was the 49ers and Seattle. He's identified every NFC North team as the organization ready to blow past the Packers. With the exception of Seattle, they have all come and gone while the Packers keep puttering along.

The Panthers have 10 pro bowl players this year. Newton (1), Stewart (13), Kuechly (9), and Davis (14) were first round picks. Kalil (59) and Short (44) were second. Turner (92) was third round and Norman fifth (143). Olsen was received via trade from Chicago and Tolbert was a FA signing a few years back. It's obviously a lot easier to get impact players picking in the top half of the first round then it is in the late 20's.

[pbmax]

I think FA and then the subsequent dearth of quality talent knit together in one coherent story.

Unlike some positions (say 2 down RB), Tackle and other in demand positions always have fewer good starters than there is demand for. So when one hits FA, even with warts, he is bid into a higher pay scale than the talent market would otherwise demand. You are almost always paying a premium in March.

Why pay a premium for a replacement level guy? Michael Oher couldn't start any longer for the Ravens and one of the best O line coaches in the game couldn't make it work (Titans-Bob Bostad). Is he the reason Carolina is in the Super Bowl?

[pbmax]

BTW, you know one of the narratives about how great and self-evident Arians success is regarding hiring veteran coaches and letting them do their thing? Arians himself, Tom Moore, Tom Pratt, Larry Zierlein (whose photo will kick your ass if you stare at it too long (http://www.azcardinals.com/team/coaches/larry-zierlein/e6c2c933-a9b8-4f53-b894-055699a5cfc8)). http://www.azcardinals.com/roster/coaches.html

Well as a corrective, get a load of the Tennessee Titans (3-13): Mike Mularkey, Terry Robiskie, Bobby April (McGinn nearly faints from blood pressure change when he reads this name), Bob Bostad, Sylvester Croom, and Ray Horton. http://www.titansonline.com/team/coaches.html

Belichick and McCarthy can hire Rand's refrigerator guy in comparison and get better results than the Titans did.

[mraynrand]

BTW, you know one of the narratives about how great and self-evident Arians success is regarding hiring veteran coaches and letting them do their thing? Arians himself, Tom Moore, Tom Pratt, Larry Zierlein (whose photo will kick your ass if you stare at it too long (http://www.azcardinals.com/team/coaches/larry-zierlein/e6c2c933-a9b8-4f53-b894-055699a5cfc8)). http://www.azcardinals.com/roster/coaches.html

Vanilla Bob looks like the greeter at Shady Acres Funeral Home.

http://prod.static.cardinals.clubs.nfl.com//assets/images/imported/ARI/photos/person/coach-headshots/BobSanders_410x210--nfl_thumb_205_105.jpg

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yeah, exactly what is needed. A head coach named Malarkey. And assistants named April, McNutty and Conniving. You sure he didn't hire his law firm as assistant coaches?

[Carolina_Packer]

I think FA and then the subsequent dearth of quality talent knit together in one coherent story.

Unlike some positions (say 2 down RB), Tackle and other in demand positions always have fewer good starters than there is demand for. So when one hits FA, even with warts, he is bid into a higher pay scale than the talent market would otherwise demand. You are almost always paying a premium in March.

Why pay a premium for a replacement level guy? Michael Oher couldn't start any longer for the Ravens and one of the best O line coaches in the game couldn't make it work (Titans-Bob Bostad). Is he the reason Carolina is in the Super Bowl?

According to overthecap, here are Oher's figures: Total Value: $7,000,000 (avg. $3,500,000/year; $2,500,000 fully guaranteed) 23rd highest of 54 LT contracts

I'd say they are probably really happy with the production that they have gotten from him at $850K for this year. If they decide to cut him before June 1, they have 1.25 in dead money, but chances are they keep him since he's working out well, has come back from his toe injury (no small thing for a tackle, I'm sure).

If you were a team that is good with the cap like the Packers, would you have even considered offering Oher this kind of deal for two years to have veteran depth vs. ever having to put Don Barclay or Josh Walker in at LT because of injury?

It worked out for the Panthers, but of course they weren't using him as a backup, but the Packers sure could have used a guy like Oher when Bach, or even Bulaga went down.

[Joemailman]

I don't think the offensive line is where the Packers would need to sign a FA to plug a hole. That can be done through the draft. They've been pretty successful at getting rookies ready to start if needed (Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Linsley). TE and ILB are the areas where looking at free agency might be the way to go.

[woodbuck27]

Yeah, exactly what is needed. A head coach named Malarkey. And assistants named April, McNutty and Conniving. You sure he didn't hire his law firm as assistant coaches?

Maybe in the days he was hiring those fellas he was watching and inspired by a favourite movie of his:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(film)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/8/27/1377600839555/One-Flew-Over-the-Cuckoos-011.jpg

[Patler]

According to overthecap, here are Oher's figures: Total Value: $7,000,000 (avg. $3,500,000/year; $2,500,000 fully guaranteed) 23rd highest of 54 LT contracts

If you were a team that is good with the cap like the Packers, would you have even considered offering Oher this kind of deal for two years to have veteran depth vs. ever having to put Don Barclay or Josh Walker in at LT because of injury?

It worked out for the Panthers, but of course they weren't using him as a backup, but the Packers sure could have used a guy like Oher when Bach, or even Bulaga went down.



I think the bigger question, and one we can not answer, is would Oher even consider signing with a team that has two established starters, where he might not play all year? Didn't he sign a short term contract to prove himself and hopefully get another, bigger contract in two years as a legitimate NFL starter? If he signed with a team where he did not have a legitimate chance to start, isn't he killing his future chances? If you were his agent, would you advise him to take that type of deal from GB, knowing that Bakhtiari had not missed a game in his career, and Bulaga missed just one in 2014? A team with a starting line the staff seemed very happy with? I think I would have encouraged him to look for a team without a returning starter, or a team with a starter they were clearly unhappy with, even if he had to accept a somewhat inferior deal..

[yetisnowman]

This is pretty lame. A ten year veteran probably wouldn't be blocking on ST. Still if you want 48 receptions for 500 yards, I guess he's your guy. Oh wait, those are almost Identical numbers to Rodgers, and he didn't cost as much. So what was your point?

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

[mraynrand]

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

Davis is viable? I thought he passed away after running one route yesterday.

Daniels ran two pretty unremarkable routes on his TDs.

But I guess if you say Daniels is an athlete, it must be true. You've been right about everything else.

[woodbuck27]

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

I was always impressed with his potential. I recall when Denver got him thinking Elway made a solid move.

TT can't see too far. His head and eyes ....his note pad.

If he didn't write that players name down 'first'.... on his pad ....he thinks.......he's not Packer people.

[mraynrand]

I was always impressed with his potential. I recall when Denver got him thinking Elway made a solid move.

TT can't see too far. His head and eyes ....his note pad.

If he didn't write that players name down 'first'.... on his pad ....he thinks.......he's not Packer people.

It wasn't Elway; it was Kubiak who brought him in. Daniels has never played for anyone else.
The rest of what you wrote is gibberish, as usual.

[Fritz]

Probably not. But on the other hand. They probably aren't saying what can we do differently to make us better. Because relying on the same stagnant tactics and HOPING for a better result is just fucking stupid. No one is saying that TT should go out and blow his whole wad on big name FA's. But a few solid vets in key positions can go a long ways.

I think the piece in boldface type is just flat out wrong. McCarthy, every year, talks about how he looks back and studies the season to see what can be done differently. After the Year of the Hamstring, he changed the practice schedule and the results were good. After last year's season-ending loss, he looked over the game and the season and decided that he could do something differently - change the coaching responsibilities, including his own - to make the team better. That one didn't work.

McCarthy self-scouts pretty well, I'd say. His solutions sometimes work, and sometimes don't but he does ask what can be done differently to make the team better.

My guess is that this off-season he'll address the problem of getting backups (wide receivers expecially) up-to-speed.

[3irty1]

Last year when McCarthy did his big shake up of how the coaches and responsibilities were organized I got the impression that this was mainly to free himself of some duties so he could do more to manage the defense and special teams as they were the squeaky wheel.

Since those two areas of the team improved significantly I don't know that his shakeup was a total failure. If all three aspects of the team (and strength and conditioning) need his babysitting and flounder without it, perhaps more heads should be rolling. I'd think a coordinator ought to be able to succeed with some level of autonomy.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'm a Badger homer and thus, love seeing Daniels do well. But bringing him in would have not caused a bunch of cheering that our TE problem was fixed. He doesn't stretch the field and that's what the board was all wanting this off-season was a TE that could have done that. He's likely about as fleet of foot as Rodgers is. TT would have been lambasted here with bringing in another slow TE.

[pbmax]

The advantage in Denver for the TE is that the wideouts scare people.

[pbmax]

Last year when McCarthy did his big shake up of how the coaches and responsibilities were organized I got the impression that this was mainly to free himself of some duties so he could do more to manage the defense and special teams as they were the squeaky wheel.

Since those two areas of the team improved significantly I don't know that his shakeup was a total failure. If all three aspects of the team (and strength and conditioning) need his babysitting and flounder without it, perhaps more heads should be rolling. I'd think a coordinator ought to be able to succeed with some level of autonomy.

I think he had more impact on ST than Defense, but I agree. Defense was on the way up at the end of last year. I still wouldn't mind him sticking his head in there. But I think he ceded too much control over the offense to Clements/Bennett.

Also think he needs to have someone in charge of game management.

Plus for the love of Coaches Named Mike, figure out what to do about 2 Man coverage.

[Zool]

Still arguing about Click Bait McGinn after all these years. Still have the same people calling the same other people homers. Good fuck this shit is like clockwork.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2814891/once-in-a-lifetime-o.gif

[Pugger]

A few thoughts; my goal is to win a title every year. I do consider the season a failure when we don't.
I cant get on the MM is a bad coach train though; on my end, TT has let us down some.

Hoody Genius is elite. What coaches do you clearly take over MM ? My guess is Pete Carroll might be considered the next best. Then who...Tomlin ? Again, I find it hard to separate MM with the next best head NFL coaches after Carroll.

From that list, I might take Payton over MM; truth be told I would not be surprised if he coaches GB someday. We had the job he wanted,after all

I'm not defending TT for leaving the cupboard dry at TE; look at the list of FA's we could have had last year

I hope TT decides to utilize more means than just the draft...and undrafted or unwanted free agents, in the upcoming season

Mike has been a lot more successful than Sean Payton has since NO won their ring.

[mraynrand]

^^ Sure, but isn't it reasonable to attribute the offensive failures to the injuries and Chubby Lacy? It seems those things are mostly out of Stubby's control. (Stubby appears to think that some of the changes weren't good because he is keeping play calling for next year).

So what will be the offseason moves this year based on this past years' fails?

1) change position coaches
2) Have backups better prepared (Fritz' point) - I dunno if they can improve here - When five WRs spend significant time injured and the remaining guy (Jones) is old and slow (and dinged up as well) and the only other guy (Janis) seemed to suffer from brain fail it wouldn't appear there's much recourse. So maybe that's why they changed TE and RB coach because they have to have the flexibility of production from those positions if the WR spot fails. ??
3) Red zone and short yardage - ?? Personnel: draft, free agency. If Lang and Sitton are going to be beat up long term then they probably need to draft at guard and tackle. Might be a spot for FA, especially since this is their 'on' year (a la Patler). Time to bring Rip along (see below as well)
4) Running Backs. Have to improve Starks' security and get Lacy in shape. They may need a backup plan - a dynamic back if these two fail. Rip might be their check down guy. The time is now.
5) Other? TE

[mraynrand]

Still arguing about Click Bait McGinn after all these years. Still have the same people calling the same other people homers. Good fuck this shit is like clockwork.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2814891/once-in-a-lifetime-o.gif

At least I saved money on a watch

[mraynrand]

Still arguing about Click Bait McGinn after all these years.

I think Bob's gotten quite a bit worse over the past couple of years. He's achieved troll status.

[Pugger]

I do not think you will find many who disagree with that, but, of course, you identified one of the key factors that people want to overlook. Are there really any free-agent tackles available who are any good who could be used as backups?

I think it was one of the pregame shows this year that discussed how bad tackle play had been. One of the commentators was someone I found credible, I don't recall if it was Howie Long, or one of the other former offensive or defensive linemen, but the gist of his comment was that there were a lot of tackles starting this year who, just a few years ago, would've been backups at best. While they didn't mention it, I would point out that Marshall Newhouse started 14 games of the 14 games he played this year for the Giants. I'm not sure there are many on here who would be satisfied with him as the backup left tackle, yet he started all year.

I think Ted Thompson has tried to maintain a steady flow of new blood for the offensive line. I expect he will continue to do so. ome will turn out, some will fail, but hopefully he will find one this year who will be at least a suitable backup left tackle. It is a tough spot to fill, and perhaps the best solution is JC Tretter, just as years ago the best solution was to move Flanagan from the starting center position to left tackle.

I think we can win with Bak and Bulaga starting and Tretter backing them up next year. Look how well the line did when they were all together in the AZ playoff game even tho they were a pretty beat up group. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping Barclay if they only used him as a backup guard.

[Carolina_Packer]

I think the bigger question, and one we can not answer, is would Oher even consider signing with a team that has two established starters, where he might not play all year? Didn't he sign a short term contract to prove himself and hopefully get another, bigger contract in two years as a legitimate NFL starter? If he signed with a team where he did not have a legitimate chance to start, isn't he killing his future chances? If you were his agent, would you advise him to take that type of deal from GB, knowing that Bakhtiari had not missed a game in his career, and Bulaga missed just one in 2014? A team with a starting line the staff seemed very happy with? I think I would have encouraged him to look for a team without a returning starter, or a team with a starter they were clearly unhappy with, even if he had to accept a somewhat inferior deal..

Good points. There was a point this year when they didn't know who might start at C with both Linsley and Tretter hurt for a period of time. When you are forced to put Josh Walker at OT, your depth is being tested! I don't fault Walker. The Packers put themselves in the spot of playing guys like him for depth, and so do other teams. Nobody's going to pay starter money for a backup and as you say, no starter or potential starter quality guy is going to go for being a backup, unless you get lucky and sign the guy for a 1 year prove it deal and he performs when called upon. I think you are right that they can fill need with first and second year guys. I know they like to have versatile guys, but it would also be nice to have a backup T who has the footwork and quickness to not be a liability when they are called upon, as we've seen with Barclay and Walker. I wondered about Vujnovich and whether they considered adding him to the roster from the practice squad when they were thin at OT, but they lived with playing two guys out of position (Tretter and Sitton). Walker says that he can play OT, and maybe he will yet as a backup, but early sample size was not encouraging, and he looks like a G to me. Anyway, injuries suck. Getting to the point of relying on depth that turns out to be meh definitely sucks, but the front office will just have to get busy finding more roster depth and creating that competition.

[Bossman641]

4) Running Backs. Have to improve Starks' security and get Lacy in shape. They may need a backup plan - a dynamic back if these two fail. Rip might be their check down guy. The time is now.

It's really shocking just how poor the ball handling was from the RB's. Starks had 5 fumbles this year after having 5 total in his first 5 years. Lacy also had 5 this year after having 4 his first 2 years.

[vince]

Mistakes were made this year for sure. That's stating the obvious. I think the biggest problem was that Rodgers wasn't on the same page at all times with McCarthy. I think his sensitivity to criticism created a wedge between them and Rodgers dug his heels in a bit. By listening to Rodgers pressers and watching his mannerisms I think he didn't want Janis out there because he wasn't confident he'd be where Rodgers expected him to be. For some reason it seemed like Adams was Rodgers' boy this year and his inability to recover from the high-ankle sprain doomed that marriage.

That, combined with the fact that every starting lineman fought health problems for the majority of the year, made Rodgers' MO (holding the ball longer than the average QB), produced nightmarish results on O.

Rodgers inability to make hay with his pre-snap adjustment game - and sensitivity to being told he needs to take more coaching and get the ball out quicker - even in the face of stacked press-man defenses - caused what we saw offensively IMO.

You can blame Rodgers' stubbornness/ego or you can blame McCarthy's for not maintaining an open coaching relationship, having too heavy of a hand when he inserted himself back into the offense perhaps. Take your pick but there's enough blame for both of them here.

Ted sat on his hands but I don't blame him a bit. I think they had enough talent to win it all. O-line and WR decimation along with what I think was a riff between Rodgers and Mac were the problems.
Plus no one seems to see it yet but they have serious cap challenges coming right up - particularly after next year. Ted's gonna need every penny he can get.

[run pMc]

I think TT will draft at least 1 OT and let Barclay go. Bulaga is always beat up and is good for about 13 games a year, and Bahkteria could use someone to push him. I think Tretter might get you through a game, but more than that is pushing it. Sitton and Lang are getting up there in age, and I think Walker is a OG. Rodgers got hit a lot this year, and some of that is on him, but that was a beat up line. I'd be fine with them looking at FA for ILB and TE, but I'm not sure who's out there.
There are record numbers of underclassmen declaring early, far more than can be expected to be drafted; so signing UDFA's isn't a horrible thing.

I think M3 made some mistakes with his staffing and that hurt...and he'll learn from it. He's not the swiftest at adjusting, but give him an offseason and he'll come up with things.
They need a separate coaches for QB ad WR, so we'll see what happens with Van Pelt. I'm curious to see what they do with Clements, and how the new guys fit into the staff.

I think the TE group needs an overhaul. Rodgers is a #2 TE, Quarless is done, Perillo is a try-hard JAG and Backman reminds me of Bostick.

In my rambling way, I'm saying that I agree somewhat with McGinn that TT and M3 made some mistakes, but nothing so egregious that they should be fired. They will (hopefully) learn from it and adjust. McGinn has become increasingly cranky and trollish over the last few years; you either get a good article because he took his meds that day, or it's an off-the-rails crazy overreaction piece. I think McGinn was overreacting and wrote a clickbait article here.

[Joemailman]

I think the biggest problem was that Rodgers wasn't on the same page at all times with McCarthy. I think his sensitivity to criticism created a wedge between them and Rodgers dug his heels in a bit. By listening to Rodgers pressers and watching his mannerisms I think he didn't want Janis out there because he wasn't confident he'd be where Rodgers expected him to be. For some reason it seemed like Adams was Rodgers' boy this year and his inability to recover from the high-ankle sprain doomed that marriage.

I agree on the Janis issue. A few weeks ago, MM in a PC said he wants to get Janis more playing time. Someone on here (Patler I think) questioned why Janis wasn't getting more playing time if MM felt that way. The answer I suspect is that MM saw no reason to put Janis out there if Rodgers won't throw to him. Even in the playoff game at Arizona, Janis wasn't out there much until Cobb got hurt and they had no choice. There's always been some tension at times between Rodgers and McCarthy, but I think it's become more than that. Not all out war, but a bit of a rift that needs to be fixed.

Just some idle speculation here...Rodgers announced he would be skipping the Pro Bowl on the same day the NFL announced that MM would be coaching one of the Pro Bowl teams. Maybe he just wants to get away from MM for a while?

[Pugger]

Mistakes were made this year for sure. That's stating the obvious. I think the biggest problem was that Rodgers wasn't on the same page at all times with McCarthy. I think his sensitivity to criticism created a wedge between them and Rodgers dug his heels in a bit. By listening to Rodgers pressers and watching his mannerisms I think he didn't want Janis out there because he wasn't confident he'd be where Rodgers expected him to be. For some reason it seemed like Adams was Rodgers' boy this year and his inability to recover from the high-ankle sprain doomed that marriage.

That, combined with the fact that every starting lineman fought health problems for the majority of the year, made Rodgers' MO (holding the ball longer than the average QB), produced nightmarish results on O.

Rodgers inability to make hay with his pre-snap adjustment game - and sensitivity to being told he needs to take more coaching and get the ball out quicker - even in the face of stacked press-man defenses - caused what we saw offensively IMO.

You can blame Rodgers' stubbornness/ego or you can blame McCarthy's for not maintaining an open coaching relationship, having too heavy of a hand when he inserted himself back into the offense perhaps. Take your pick but there's enough blame for both of them here.

Ted sat on his hands but I don't blame him a bit. I think they had enough talent to win it all. O-line and WR decimation along with what I think was a riff between Rodgers and Mac were the problems.
Plus no one seems to see it yet but they have serious cap challenges coming right up - particularly after next year. Ted's gonna need every penny he can get.

Could some of those issues between MM and AR be because Mike wasn't calling the plays for a while there?

[Joemailman]

Could some of those issues between MM and AR be because Mike wasn't calling the plays for a while there?

Not sure that things got a whole lot better once MM started calling the plays. Kuhn's snaps per game tripled once that happened which was probably an attempt to improve the protection of Rodgers. Not sure if Rodgers was on board with the idea, although he's praised Kuhn in the past.

[KYPack]

Not sure that things got a whole lot better once MM started calling the plays. Kuhn's snaps per game tripled once that happened which was probably an attempt to improve the protection of Rodgers. Not sure if Rodgers was on board with the idea, although he's praised Kuhn in the past.

Yeah, this and Pug's comment.

MM's offense starts with pass pro. Clements lost his way in that area and MM had to get involved. He made those moves somewhat proactively (I think) last off-season. Now where are we? Back to Mike with his face in the laminated sheet? Many times last season, it seemed that DickRod was the only guy gettin' any space on those little seams. We have to have guys getting open quick. MM has got to tool an offense that gets that done.

[vince]

Not sure that things got a whole lot better once MM started calling the plays. Kuhn's snaps per game tripled once that happened which was probably an attempt to improve the protection of Rodgers. Not sure if Rodgers was on board with the idea, although he's praised Kuhn in the past.
My sense is that Kuhn's presence was Rodgers' preference by that point. Rodgers wants to hold the ball and get it down field but that obviously wasn't happening. Kuhn helped Rodgers play his game a bit more, and was a reliable short yardage dump off when his guys continued to not get open. Without looking at the stats, I'd say they moved the ball better when Kuhn was in there - mostly because he helped Rodgers play the game he wants to play - at least a little bit better.

Kuhn was the middle ground between McCarthy wanting Rodgers to adjust - and Rodgers wanting McCarthy to adjust. Problem was it took until the playoffs for them to figure out they're stuck together so they damn well better figure out how to make it work.

[Bretsky]

This is the same view as Red and so many others make. You treat Rodgers as though he's some kind of pre-packaged MVP, HOF QB that the Packers bought in the store and threw out on the field, as though the coaches have nothing to do with his development, the schemes he runs, The players around him, the defense on the other side, or any of the million little things that have to be assembled to make a team work. Of course he has his own drive, development and competitiveness that is necessary to his success, but there's a good chance without the Packers and Stubby, he might be just an average QB out there, maybe even an Alex Smith.

On the other hand, acknowledging the guy's talent level - and the Packer's continued success, you have the draft order effect, where the Packers, unlike other teams that drop into oblivion for a year or two or ten or twenty, don't routinely get top 5 picks - so they can pick a dominant game-changer like a Von Miller. I dunno, maybe you'd like a few of those 2-14 seasons. If so, you should enjoy watching the Browns.


It sounds like you're helping me make a case to not only rely on draft and develop :)))

Also, if you ever read my rants (I don't blame you at all if you completely ignore me), I'm not on the group that ignores how the coaches staff develops players and the ones calling for their heads

But I no longer love Ted Thompson and I would not complain if he retired tomorrow and Eliott Wolf was hired to replace him

[call_me_ishmael]

Being critical does not mean you hate, want someone fired, etc. Ted is a very good GM - even if he only landed Rodgers, he still managed to land Rodgers - but that doesn't mean he's perfect and should be above criticism.

I don't think McGinn was calling for his or McCarthy's heads. I think his criticism was fair. The buck stops with them, and every season the Packers come up short is a reflection on them.

Let's say Rodgers is a Packer until 2022, it will be a GD shame if we win two super bowls in 30 years. That would be significantly underachieving given the rare quarterback situation in my opinion. Does that mean I would say it's a total failure - of course not - but it is less than I would expect and certainly less than "elite" given the two elite QBs.

Since 1991 through today, the Packers have been to three Super Bowls. In that same time period, the Steelers have been to four, the Patriots have been to seven, the Seahawks have been to three, the Giants have been to four, the Broncos have been to four, The Bills have been to four, the Cowboys have been to three, Baltimore has been to two, and St. Louis has been to two.

Hardly "elite" when you consider having two HOF QBs back-to-back.

[Bretsky]

I don't think the offensive line is where the Packers would need to sign a FA to plug a hole. That can be done through the draft. They've been pretty successful at getting rookies ready to start if needed (Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Linsley). TE and ILB are the areas where looking at free agency might be the way to go.



THIS

although.........LAST YEAR was the year where there were plenty of TE's............

[Bretsky]

I'm a Badger homer and thus, love seeing Daniels do well. But bringing him in would have not caused a bunch of cheering that our TE problem was fixed. He doesn't stretch the field and that's what the board was all wanting this off-season was a TE that could have done that. He's likely about as fleet of foot as Rodgers is. TT would have been lambasted here with bringing in another slow TE.


agree......

[ThunderDan]

To think that TT and MM don't self evaluate after the season is done is silly. You don't think TT doesn't see what we see.

If Denver some how wins the Super Bowl do they get a pass. If I am Denver I am looking to revamp my offense, Super Bowl or not. I would let Manning walk and hope that Osweiller is the next QB. But he is a free agent so you are looking at a huge deal or tagging him and paying 20 million for an unproven starter. Denver better find a running game also next year. Otherwise they are go in to have to win a lot of 13-10 ball games.

[wist43]

The first criticism in boldface is a criticism of a change McCarthy made after the team failed to get to the SB.

The second criticism in boldface is a criticism of McCarthy's unwillingness to change.

I would agree that McCarthy seems a bit slow to pull the trigger on changes, and that can and has hurt this team from time to time. On the flip side, changing it up constantly is no recipe for success, either.

The point would be Fritz - he made changes to things that were working, and he didn't change what wasn't working; hence, this seasons dismal performance.

[pbmax]

If it was Rodgers preference to keep going deep then I give him credit for bravery. And he should also have a psych evaluation.

I thought that was Clements call to keep pushing the envelope and block with five. And Rodgers went along because that is the recipe to beat man coverage if you have time and he wanted to support his guy.

Going short though is severely restricted by that man press coverage. You don't see that coverage and say I am throwing on the second step unless its a screen. And they weren't blitzing him much normally, usually had a spy. If you are going to throw a receiver open on a timing route, that needs to be an accurate route. The killer here is that even when he had time (and that perked up later in the year as health returned) there was still no one open.

I don't think there was an answer this year except for Janis and Abbredaris. And while Rodgers may not have trusted Janis, the Head Coach didn't trust either enough to get additional routes OR 2 point conversion plays in their practice reps.

He needs to alter that no huddle to include base concepts that break man coverage right off the line. The Patriots have a lot of those routes and formations for Amidala and Edelman. The answer is probably Monty and Janis on a slant.

[vince]

Being critical does not mean you hate, want someone fired, etc. Ted is a very good GM - even if he only landed Rodgers, he still managed to land Rodgers - but that doesn't mean he's perfect and should be above criticism.

I don't think McGinn was calling for his or McCarthy's heads. I think his criticism was fair. The buck stops with them, and every season the Packers come up short is a reflection on them.

Let's say Rodgers is a Packer until 2022, it will be a GD shame if we win two super bowls in 30 years. That would be significantly underachieving given the rare quarterback situation in my opinion. Does that mean I would say it's a total failure - of course not - but it is less than I would expect and certainly less than "elite" given the two elite QBs.

Since 1991 through today, the Packers have been to three Super Bowls. In that same time period, the Steelers have been to four, the Patriots have been to seven, the Seahawks have been to three, the Giants have been to four, the Broncos have been to four, The Bills have been to four, the Cowboys have been to three, Baltimore has been to two, and St. Louis has been to two.

Hardly "elite" when you consider having two HOF QBs back-to-back.
15 (realistically 16 or 17) of those 25 years have nothing whatsoever to do with Thompson and McCarthy. Wolf, Sherman, Holmgren, and Favre deserve the overwhelming brunt of the "blame" under that argument.

[Pugger]

Good points. There was a point this year when they didn't know who might start at C with both Linsley and Tretter hurt for a period of time. When you are forced to put Josh Walker at OT, your depth is being tested! I don't fault Walker. The Packers put themselves in the spot of playing guys like him for depth, and so do other teams. Nobody's going to pay starter money for a backup and as you say, no starter or potential starter quality guy is going to go for being a backup, unless you get lucky and sign the guy for a 1 year prove it deal and he performs when called upon. I think you are right that they can fill need with first and second year guys. I know they like to have versatile guys, but it would also be nice to have a backup T who has the footwork and quickness to not be a liability when they are called upon, as we've seen with Barclay and Walker. I wondered about Vujnovich and whether they considered adding him to the roster from the practice squad when they were thin at OT, but they lived with playing two guys out of position (Tretter and Sitton). Walker says that he can play OT, and maybe he will yet as a backup, but early sample size was not encouraging, and he looks like a G to me. Anyway, injuries suck. Getting to the point of relying on depth that turns out to be meh definitely sucks, but the front office will just have to get busy finding more roster depth and creating that competition.

There just aren't enough decent starting tackles in this league, let alone backups. We could be the Gmen and still have Marshall Freaking Newhouse protecting Rodgers' backside. This year we got hit by multiple injuries to 2 key offensive positions and it really hampered this offense. I can't think of many teams who can absorb the kind of losses we had at WR and on the O line and not struggle to keep drives alive and score points.

[Pugger]

It's really shocking just how poor the ball handling was from the RB's. Starks had 5 fumbles this year after having 5 total in his first 5 years. Lacy also had 5 this year after having 4 his first 2 years.

Perhaps this is why Sam Gash got canned?

[yetisnowman]

Davis is viable? I thought he passed away after running one route yesterday.

Daniels ran two pretty unremarkable routes on his TDs.

But I guess if you say Daniels is an athlete, it must be true. You've been right about everything else.

Well Denver's "other" TE's caught 32 passes for 374 yards. If you want to play the semantics game...fine whatever. Viable? More so than the Packers other guys...yes. Watch the detailed replays of Daniels Td catches, since obviously you missed the details the first go round. He made double moves on both plays that got the defender off balance and out of position. On the second he shook Jamie Collins and outran him to the corner of the endzone. Remarkable? Maybe not by your defintion, but far more athletic than anything I've ever seen Dick Rod do. And Daniels is 9 years older.

[yetisnowman]

The advantage in Denver for the TE is that the wideouts scare people.

Including their speedy #2 guy, who was ALSO a free agent signing. And he makes half of what Cobb does.......oops!

[mraynrand]

Well Denver's "other" TE's caught 32 passes for 374 yards. If you want to play the semantics game...fine whatever. Viable? More so than the Packers other guys...yes. Watch the detailed replays of Daniels Td catches, since obviously you missed the details the first go round. He made double moves on both plays that got the defender off balance and out of position. On the second he shook Jamie Collins and outran him to the corner of the endzone. Remarkable? Maybe not by your defintion, but far more athletic than anything I've ever seen Dick Rod do. And Daniels is 9 years older.

Try the hail mary catch at Detroit or the TD versus NE last year. I know the guy's a bit sluggish but he's comparable to a 32 year old veteran -which is what Daniels was when Ted could have signed him. I'm sure a competent TE coach could teach Dickrod one of those complicated 'double moves' if the guy shed 20 pounds (Dickrod, not the coach :) ).

[mraynrand]

Including their speedy #2 guy, who was ALSO a free agent signing. And he makes half of what Cobb does.......oops!

That was a pretty good signing. Sanders, like Cobb, benefits a lot from having a strong #1 WR. Sanders is a little more inconsistent, but that's a relatively minor quibble.

[Bossman641]

Being critical does not mean you hate, want someone fired, etc. Ted is a very good GM - even if he only landed Rodgers, he still managed to land Rodgers - but that doesn't mean he's perfect and should be above criticism.

Sure, that's 100% true. But when posters claim TT and MM don't actually want to win the SB and instead just want to win 10 games every year; or that MM is afraid to make any changes is a load of crap.

[yetisnowman]

Try the hail mary catch at Detroit or the TD versus NE last year. I know the guy's a bit sluggish but he's comparable to a 32 year old veteran -which is what Daniels was when Ted could have signed him. I'm sure a competent TE coach could teach Dickrod one of those complicated 'double moves' if the guy shed 20 pounds (Dickrod, not the coach :) ).

Yes he jogged up the field against piss poor coverage and caught that moonball with no one in front of him. The guy is pretty good good at attacking the ball at it's highest point, the problem is he just doesn't get open often. If you can't concede Daniels is a more complete TE, ok. The funny thing s you highlight two plays over two seasons. Whereas I highlight two plays from the same game.

[Striker]

Yes he jogged up the field against piss poor coverage and caught that moonball with no one in front of him. The guy is pretty good good at attacking the ball at it's highest point, the problem is he just doesn't get open often. If you can't concede Daniels is a more complete TE, ok. The funny thing s you highlight two plays over two seasons. Whereas I highlight two plays from the same game.

So that's two plays in one game...after not doing anything overly spectacular in the other 17? Sounds pretty comparable once you average it out.

Recency bias is fun.

[Patler]

The guy is pretty good good at attacking the ball at it's highest point, the problem is he just doesn't get open often.

Yet, he caught more passes than Finley did in any season but one, and he was #12 on the TE list for receptions this year, only 3 short of being in the top 10. I don't think his problem is getting open, I think his problem is doing something with it after he catches it. I don't know if coaching can improve that, maybe not.

[Striker]

Yet, he caught more passes than Finley did in any season but one, and he was #12 on the TE list for receptions this year, only 3 short of being in the top 10. I don't think his problem is getting open, I think his problem is doing something with it after he catches it. I don't know if coaching can improve that, maybe not.

He did alright on any routes that let him just go downfield or on ones that let him out jump other players.

It was those stupid TE screens, passes in the flat, and swing pass that were just...yeah.

[Fritz]

The point would be Fritz - he made changes to things that were working, and he didn't change what wasn't working; hence, this seasons dismal performance.


The point would be that last year special teams were awful, and that in the NFC Championship game, MM had his head so buried in the laminated playcalling sheet that he wasn't really managing the entire game, so MM made a change to become more involved. It worked for the ST problem, at least, and I also had a sense he was more aware of the overall game situation -but it meant the offense went backward. So he changed that again.

He didn't change what wasn't working? If by that you mean the bad offensive performance - well, he did make a change. It may have taken longer than we'd have liked, but he made a change. He took back the playcalling.

[yetisnowman]

That was a pretty good signing. Sanders, like Cobb, benefits a lot from having a strong #1 WR. Sanders is a little more inconsistent, but that's a relatively minor quibble.

In what way is Sanders more inconsistent? I find your assertions sometimes....well, just odd. My initial reaction based on what I observed, was that Cobb, if anything was more inconsistent. Then just to check myself, I examine the stats. Let's say a low impact game for a receiver like this is under 50 yds receiving? Cobb had 10 games this season like that. Sanders had 3. Sanders also averaged almost 5 more yards per reception, meaning he was much more of a big play threat. And remember he had high voice, no HGH Peyton and Brockness monster throwing it to him.

[yetisnowman]

So that's two plays in one game...after not doing anything overly spectacular in the other 17? Sounds pretty comparable once you average it out.

Recency bias is fun.

Eyeball bias is more fun. Yes their numbers average out comparably. But remember that Daniels did not have a healthy starter throwing him the ball basically the entire season.

[Patler]

He did alright on any routes that let him just go downfield or on ones that let him out jump other players.

It was those stupid TE screens, passes in the flat, and swing pass that were just...yeah.

There was one, I think against the Cardinals, that epitomized his season. It was so absurd I laughed out loud when it happened. He caught the ball, took two steps as the DB approached, then came to a dead stop with his feet straight under him and about shoulder width apart, almost like approaching a dog ready to bite. He never moved his feet at all as the DB dove and latched on to his lower legs. He then toppled over like a tree being cut.

No effort to make the guy miss. Even worse, no effort to run through a DB 50-60 pounds lighter than him. Just stop, and topple over.

[Bossman641]

In what way is Sanders more inconsistent? I find your assertions sometimes....well, just odd. My initial reaction based on what I observed, was that Cobb, if anything was more inconsistent. Then just to check myself, I examine the stats. Let's say a low impact game for a receiver like this is under 50 yds receiving? Cobb had 10 games this season like that. Sanders had 3. Sanders also averaged almost 5 more yards per reception, meaning he was much more of a big play threat. And remember he had high voice, no HGH Peyton and Brockness monster throwing it to him.

He had high voice? What does that mean? (*EDIT* nvm I'm assuming you are referring to Manning's commercials)

The obvious answer is Sanders had the benefit of lining up next to Thomas for all 16 games. He wasn't the focal point of the offense. Cobb had a poor year, along with the rest of the offense. Next year I expect Cobb will be back to his normal 14-15 YPC. Sanders was a great pickup for Denver back in 2014 though. He's obviously benefited from playing with great players (he's lined up opposite Antonio Brown or D Thomas for every game of the past 3 seasons) but I'm not going to hold that against him.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't see the debate on tight ends, etc. Who cares? Woulda shoulda coulda - it didn't happen. I think we'll address it this off-season in some form.

I personally believe Rich Rodgers has been put on a diet and will be faster than a super market rascal next year. Still comically slow, but faster. I seem to recall a championship type team with RR at tight end, so I am not overly concerned about it. You could do better and it's a priority but it's not a show stopper.

[RashanGary]

I doubt either TT or MM cares at all what McGinn thinks or writes. Nothing from McGinn will cause them to change, or even consider changing.

The first time I opened this thread was today and I was curious what people here were saying. I did not read his article and still haven't. The reason is he's proven he doesn't know what he's talking about over the years. The Packers are one of a couple franchises that are consistently one of the best teams in football. Analysis that doesn't start with that is ridiculous and not worth my time. Nitpicking the packers or patriots or steelers for not winning the Super Bowl every year.... I just can't take it seriously. At the same time, it feeds on the average persons interest and that is what McGinn is paid to do. He's doing what he does and doing it well. It just doesn't interest me.

[Fritz]

It seems to me the Patriots really are a cut above everyone else over a period of several years now; beneath them are another tier of consistently very good teams. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Seattle the last few years, a few others.

[Patler]

It seems to me the Patriots really are a cut above everyone else over a period of several years now; beneath them are another tier of consistently very good teams. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Seattle the last few years, a few others.

It does seem that way, and still they will have just 1 SB win in the last 11 years; the same as GB and Seattle, one less than Pittsburgh and the NY Giants, who you haven't even mentioned. Just proves that there is good fortune involved in winning Super Bowls, too.

[mraynrand]

In what way is Sanders more inconsistent? I find your assertions sometimes....well, just odd. My initial reaction based on what I observed, was that Cobb, if anything was more inconsistent. Then just to check myself, I examine the stats. Let's say a low impact game for a receiver like this is under 50 yds receiving? Cobb had 10 games this season like that. Sanders had 3. Sanders also averaged almost 5 more yards per reception, meaning he was much more of a big play threat. And remember he had high voice, no HGH Peyton and Brockness monster throwing it to him.

I'm talking about Sanders playing for Pittsburgh too, because we're talking about signing a FA. Based on watching Pittsburgh games, I thought he was inconsistent in route running and had drops. Also have a buddy who is Pitt follower and he wasn't excited about keeping the guy (not just because they had other receivers).

[mraynrand]

Yet, he caught more passes than Finley did in any season but one, and he was #12 on the TE list for receptions this year, only 3 short of being in the top 10. I don't think his problem is getting open, I think his problem is doing something with it after he catches it. I don't know if coaching can improve that, maybe not.

Coaching could take advantage of his strengths by running him where his good hands will get first downs where he catches it, instead of asking him to turn upfield like Gronk or any other more athletic guy. Also, coaching can decide to have him train to be lighter, etc. to optimize for pass catching, if that's what they think is his strength.

[mraynrand]

Yes he jogged up the field against piss poor coverage and caught that moonball with no one in front of him. The guy is pretty good good at attacking the ball at it's highest point, the problem is he just doesn't get open often. If you can't concede Daniels is a more complete TE, ok. The funny thing s you highlight two plays over two seasons. Whereas I highlight two plays from the same game.

The question is whether you overall do better for the team by signing the 31 year old or drafting the rookie. I think that the first year Daniels is the better option, but then he starts to decline while the other guy ascends (hopefully, it's not certain Rodgers will continue upward). So this year, I think they are about equal, with the veteran wiles in Daniels' favor. Given what happened to Q, in hindsight you'd like to have had him on the roster. Otherwise, I think it's a wash, especially going forward.

[pbmax]

Yes he jogged up the field against piss poor coverage and caught that moonball with no one in front of him. The guy is pretty good good at attacking the ball at it's highest point, the problem is he just doesn't get open often. If you can't concede Daniels is a more complete TE, ok. The funny thing s you highlight two plays over two seasons. Whereas I highlight two plays from the same game.

That is his job, to knock the defenders out of the front of the group. Problem for Detroit was that the Defenders were a little too deep. But not by much, RichRod really was the highest set of hands on that play. It was run as designed.

Janis did the same thing on his Hail Mary, he just didn't have other Packers on his side to collide with the DB, but he was last to the spot with the highest hands.

That is legitimately the design of the play.

[pbmax]

Including their speedy #2 guy, who was ALSO a free agent signing. And he makes half of what Cobb does.......oops!

Sanders was a great signing, but probably of no interest to the Packers given the WR roster in 2014. Nelson, Cobb, Boykin, Dorsey?, Adams, Abby and Janis.

[call_me_ishmael]

It does seem that way, and still they will have just 1 SB win in the last 11 years; the same as GB and Seattle, one less than Pittsburgh and the NY Giants, who you haven't even mentioned. Just proves that there is good fortune involved in winning Super Bowls, too.

NE has been to 5 straight AFC Championship games and 10 of the last 15. So, 2/3 of the time. That is really damn impressive and a clear cut above what GB has done in the same duration. Having said that, the end result is the same.

[Bretsky]

As much as you love the "FA wins superbowls" shtick its always proven hollow. I think Ted did a good job this year, McCarthy and bad luck are the main culprits. Not that he's a bad coach. I'd prefer McCarthy as a coach to both Carroll and Tomlin but there are some guys I'd rather have.

Belichick is obviously a fabulous coach. Maybe even underrated considering his shortcomings as a GM. That is the big disadvantage of BB is that he doesn't play well with others so you'll never have an elite GM and coach at the same time. .


Because I criticize Ted Thompson for Hibernating during most free agent periods I know I'm labled as a FA wins Super Bowls guy. I would not put myself there. I would say this

Effective Drafting PLUS Annual Utliization of Free Agency to help fill holes is > than TT's draft only. Wist gets ripped, often unnecessary in here, for pointing out TT is constantly churning over the bottoms ten or so on the roster in hopes of finding a gem at the sacrifice of plugging in a hole or two. YES.....once in a blue moon we'll find a Sam Shields, but with his speed he wasn't exactly a complete secret. I'd just like to be like other teams and occasionally fill some holes. When TT has went out and found players....Woodson....Peppers...etc....he's did ok. I'd just like to see him do it a bit more.

At minimum I'd rather see one or two crafty Veteran signings (see Hoody's record for plenty of examples) as opposed to keeping a lug like Frank Zombo around for two years and then cast him away when he clearly is never going to help us.

Completely agree on Hoody Genius as a coach and Hoody Idiot as a GM. Had Scott Piolo stayed as the GM the reast of the NFL might have never had a chance. I've read and watched specials on this. Piolo brought a lot of sense to that duo and often protected Hoody from himself. TG he left.

[Bretsky]

On a sidenote in regards o coaching, Holmgren chatted with MM and advised him against giving up play calling in the offseason. MM noted to Holmy he needs to be more involved in special teams and other misc things. This was all noted on NFL Network.

Didn't seem to me like MM had a lot of faith in Ron Zook. Either way.....changes....miserable failure.

[mraynrand]

Either way.....changes....miserable failure.

Well, I think there's broad consensus that the O changes didn't work, but I also think it's a bad idea to attach too much of the problems to the changes. I think he injuries and fat Lacy are bigger issues. But some changes need to be made, you can see they are already happening and it will be interesting to see if the team can have a healthy year so that we can actually see if the changes work.

[Pugger]

NE has been to 5 straight AFC Championship games and 10 of the last 15. So, 2/3 of the time. That is really damn impressive and a clear cut above what GB has done in the same duration. Having said that, the end result is the same.


We just had 7 straight seasons making the playoffs. Not many teams can say that. Often a team will lose in the playoffs because a couple of plays. Not often does a team in the playoffs get blown out like AZ did against Carolina last Sunday. Jad their kicker made that extra point would Denver be in SB 50 instead of NE? Had we won the toss in AZ and won that game we would have been to 2 consecutive conference championship games. Winning it all is hard. Only one team ends the season happy.

[Pugger]

Ted does use FA but he signs his own guys, not those from other clubs. A lot of people don't think that is very sexy. It is boring to most fans to resign your own rather than shiny new toys. Signing your own vets is boring.

[mraynrand]

^^^ I'm Ok being compared to the best there is, which is NE. Better than being on the other end of the spectrum, watching the revolving door of GMs and coaches screw up the number 1,2 or 3 pick in the draft and in each subsequent round, sign some older washed up FAs just making bank and then win 3-4 games at best every year.

[call_me_ishmael]

We just had 7 straight seasons making the playoffs. Not many teams can say that. Often a team will lose in the playoffs because a couple of plays. Not often does a team in the playoffs get blown out like AZ did against Carolina last Sunday. Jad their kicker made that extra point would Denver be in SB 50 instead of NE? Had we won the toss in AZ and won that game we would have been to 2 consecutive conference championship games. Winning it all is hard. Only one team ends the season happy.

No doubt we've been very good - but as McGinn points out we should be very good every year at a minimum because we have a premier player at a premier position. There is a reason it's always a Roethlisberger, a Brady or a Manning in the SB for the AFC. Because that one player at that position can make that big of a difference.

Let's say we get a B for getting to the playoffs every year. In my opinion, a B is very good, but we should be trying to improve and figure out how to get an A. The Patriots and there 5 straight AFC championship games and 2/3 AFC championship appearances in the past 15 years are a good model to follow.

I am not advocating for radically changing the approach, firing anyone, etc. I am content with how well we've done - but I think we can do more with a few tweaks to approach. I think McGinn feels the same way. He isn't calling for anyones head, etc. For example, He mentions bringing in players for try-outs consistently to increase competition. Lower level players have to bring it or be cut, so they try harder, which forces the mid-tier to try harder, which forces the top tier to try harder. I think this is a simple improvement that pays big time dividends.

[Bossman641]

Effective Drafting PLUS Annual Utliization of Free Agency to help fill holes is > than TT's draft only. Wist gets ripped, often unnecessary in here, for pointing out TT is constantly churning over the bottoms ten or so on the roster in hopes of finding a gem at the sacrifice of plugging in a hole or two. YES.....once in a blue moon we'll find a Sam Shields, but with his speed he wasn't exactly a complete secret. I'd just like to be like other teams and occasionally fill some holes. When TT has went out and found players....Woodson....Peppers...etc....he's did ok. I'd just like to see him do it a bit more.

I'm not following this comment. One of McGinn's complaints about TT has been that he does not churn over the bottom quarter or so of the roster as other teams do. I believe McGinn wrote a column back around week 6-7 comparing the number of transactions the Packers had made vs other teams over the past few years. Other teams were constantly signing new players to the practice squad or changing out the bottom few parts of the roster. The Packers basically kept the same team throughout the year as the team they finished training camp with.

[3irty1]

Because I criticize Ted Thompson for Hibernating during most free agent periods I know I'm labled as a FA wins Super Bowls guy. I would not put myself there. I would say this

Effective Drafting PLUS Annual Utliization of Free Agency to help fill holes is > than TT's draft only. Wist gets ripped, often unnecessary in here, for pointing out TT is constantly churning over the bottoms ten or so on the roster in hopes of finding a gem at the sacrifice of plugging in a hole or two. YES.....once in a blue moon we'll find a Sam Shields, but with his speed he wasn't exactly a complete secret. I'd just like to be like other teams and occasionally fill some holes. When TT has went out and found players....Woodson....Peppers...etc....he's did ok. I'd just like to see him do it a bit more.

At minimum I'd rather see one or two crafty Veteran signings (see Hoody's record for plenty of examples) as opposed to keeping a lug like Frank Zombo around for two years and then cast him away when he clearly is never going to help us.

Completely agree on Hoody Genius as a coach and Hoody Idiot as a GM. Had Scott Piolo stayed as the GM the reast of the NFL might have never had a chance. I've read and watched specials on this. Piolo brought a lot of sense to that duo and often protected Hoody from himself. TG he left.

Occasionally like when we need emergency WR help and Ted swiftly signs the perfect vet who starts the whole year for us?

Since Ted doesn't "draft only" and in fact has a sterling record with the FA's he's brought in. Either you think his success in free agency is scaleable rather than opportunistic which is just wrong or you want more JAG free agents which amounts to turning over the middle of our roster instead of the bottom and spending a ton of cap to do so. Frank Zombo is a success story, not a cautionary tale. The man's still in the league so we're not talking about a pizza guy here playing linebacker. For the NFL's minimum wage we had a guy who played on all 4 special teams and could get us out of a game starting for what was ultimately a championship defense. He doesn't have to be Sam Shields to be a great value, he can play out his whole contract and be on his way. If fans ran the team, we'd probably have signed Shawne Merriman or Jason Taylor that year.

For this season I think any fanblame on TT is fanblame that ought to go to McCarthy. The past few drafts have been excellent. The types of drafts that ought to precede a superbowl run. The new contributors from FA have surpassed all expectations. The guys who let us down this season are our established studs. Of course not all of that is McCarthy's fault but I think the Occam's razor conclusion for us arm-chair GMs who want to blame just one guy, McCarthy is that guy. This team played so much worse than the sum of its parts.

Strangely though, I also have a bit of FOMO now that we can expect McCarthy to abort his coaching shakeup experiment. What if it was a good idea but fell victim to a single snake-bitten season in the impatient atmosphere of pro sports? I remember being excited about it last season. I still see the merit.

[mraynrand]

This team played so much worse than the sum of its parts.

I disagree with this part. At the end, the parts were Jones, Abby, Janis. Jones was nursing a hammy or some other injury and Abby didn't return from injury until the Viking game #1 and was immediately injured again. Nelson was gone from the start, Cobb had his shoulder which probably bothered him longer than any of us knew, Monty was lost in game 6, Q was out, and Adams has the ankle then knee. I mean, that leaves virtually nothing. Those are some pretty shitty parts. Then, all the linemen were injured. some worse than others, and then out of position. Lacy was fat. So I disagree about the quality of the parts on offense. The defense and STs were fine, except maybe ILB and punter. Every team has some holes though.

I don't know where to place blame for the injuries. I can blame Stubby for Lacy, but only up to a point. I think with a guy like that, he gets one year to cock it up. If he isn't in physical stud shape by draft day, the Packers have to do something. If they don't, then I'll blame them if the run game is a disaster next fall.

The expectations here are very high, because the history of achievement is in the top 3 in the league under TT/Stubby. The NFL is designed to even out teams, so staying on top is pretty damn tough and there is at least a considerable amount of luck making that championship run.

There are problems that need addressing, but I'm not at all dissatisfied with the Packer's performance this year, taking everything into account.

[Patler]

No doubt we've been very good - but as McGinn points out we should be very good every year at a minimum because we have a premier player at a premier position. There is a reason it's always a Roethlisberger, a Brady or a Manning in the SB for the AFC. Because that one player at that position can make that big of a difference.

I would argue that they did not have a premier player at a premier position this year. Rodgers was nowhere near the player this year that he has been in recent years, and warning signs were out already in training camp concerning his play. This was before Nelson was lost and before injuries hit the offensive line. Again, if this team is very good because of Rodgers, when Rodgers doesn't hit his standard the team is not at the same level.




Let's say we get a B for getting to the playoffs every year. In my opinion, a B is very good, but we should be trying to improve and figure out how to get an A. The Patriots and there 5 straight AFC championship games and 2/3 AFC championship appearances in the past 15 years are a good model to follow.


Do you really think Thompson and McCarthy are not trying to make that next step? Do you really think they are satisfied just to be in the playoffs?

[Smidgeon]

McGinn's year end grades also gave McCarthy a D- for coaching this year, despite the record and dealing with a high number of injuries in two concentrated areas, and making the divisional round of the playoffs, none of which are easy to do.

So I'm personally not very inclined to give McClickbait the benefit of the doubt in what he intended to write.

[Maxie the Taxi]

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8b/40/1d/8b401d5a8a604ad7cb25ad184d3beab7.jpg

[Cheesehead Craig]

How many FA did Vince sign again?

[mraynrand]

Ya know, Vince regretted saying "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"

[mraynrand]

McGinn's year end grades also gave McCarthy a D- for coaching this year, despite the record and dealing with a high number of injuries in two concentrated areas, and making the divisional round of the playoffs, none of which are easy to do.

So I'm personally not very inclined to give McClickbait the benefit of the doubt in what he intended to write.

Really? D- If that's true, he's achieved Troll Status. You may as well give his job to Runtnstrut. :)

[Patler]

Ya know, Vince regretted saying "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"

Per Wikipedia (if it is on the internet, it has to be true, right?):


According to the late James Michener's Sports in America, Lombardi claimed to have been misquoted. What he intended to say was "Winning isn't everything. The will to win is the only thing."

[3irty1]

I disagree with this part. At the end, the parts were Jones, Abby, Janis. Jones was nursing a hammy or some other injury and Abby didn't return from injury until the Viking game #1 and was immediately injured again. Nelson was gone from the start, Cobb had his shoulder which probably bothered him longer than any of us knew, Monty was lost in game 6, Q was out, and Adams has the ankle then knee. I mean, that leaves virtually nothing. Those are some pretty shitty parts. Then, all the linemen were injured. some worse than others, and then out of position. Lacy was fat. So I disagree about the quality of the parts on offense. The defense and STs were fine, except maybe ILB and punter. Every team has some holes though.

I don't know where to place blame for the injuries. I can blame Stubby for Lacy, but only up to a point. I think with a guy like that, he gets one year to cock it up. If he isn't in physical stud shape by draft day, the Packers have to do something. If they don't, then I'll blame them if the run game is a disaster next fall.

The expectations here are very high, because the history of achievement is in the top 3 in the league under TT/Stubby. The NFL is designed to even out teams, so staying on top is pretty damn tough and there is at least a considerable amount of luck making that championship run.

There are problems that need addressing, but I'm not at all dissatisfied with the Packer's performance this year, taking everything into account.

The shitblizzard was real but since we know for a fact that God is a packers fan only human freewill prevents us from getting a superbowl every year. Its important to remember this and differentiate between the verbs blame and fanblame. The shitblizzard is someone's fault, probably McCarthy but McCarthy for sure didn't make lemonade out of the shit as the proverb goes.

For real though I look at last year to see whats up. Despite being the top scoring team or whatever our offense had some trouble in paradise last season. The first three games were awful. Especially against the Lions where the defense was awesome but the offense scored more points for the Lions than they did for us. Then there was Buffalo. All those games even with MVP-Rodgers, Jordy, and a less rotund Lacy, it smelled like the warm, moist, low-pressure conditions of the 2015 shitblizzard.

[mraynrand]

Per Wikipedia (if it is on the internet, it has to be true, right?):

It's also in David Maraniss' book and on the NFL network "An Football life" coming from Vince's mouth, directly, on videotape. Wist might say it was a staged false flag operation by the CIA, but I believe it. Vince didn't say he was misquoted (Wiki got that wrong) but that he should have said something else. I'll get the exact quote for you later...

[ThunderDan]

If McCarthy gets a D- for coaching does that mean the other 27 coaches that didn't make it to the conference championship games all got D- or F?

[Smidgeon]

Really? D- If that's true, he's achieved Troll Status. You may as well give his job to Runtnstrut. :)


Q: gene, chicago - bob thanks for taking my question. your coaching grade of d- seems aimed at McCarthy. If so, what grade would you give Capers?
A: Bob McGinn - Gene: You're right, the D-minus was strictly for Mike McCarthy. Capers? B, I guess, without being able to think it through. The only glaring negatives were inability to take the ball away (and that's a significant one) and the overtime in Az.


COACHING (D-minus)

Aaron Rodgers played 1,286 of a possible 1,296 snaps. That alone all but guarantees eight victories. The Packers won 10 and a playoff game, of course, but the offense was an impediment most of the way. This was McCarthy's worst coaching job, and it wasn't even close. Overreacting after the setback in Seattle, McCarthy handed off what he does best to a play-calling neophyte, Tom Clements, in a staff reorganization that was top-heavy and largely unworkable. McCarthy finally came to his senses and resumed calling the plays, but the damage had been done and the offense never caught fire. Great coaches adjust to injury and find ways to keep moving the ball, especially those with a franchise quarterback and a strong roster like Green Bay's. McCarthy didn't. Injuries shouldn't have been an issue; mangameslost.com, using quantitative and qualitative barometers, ranked Green Bay just 24th among teams hit hardest by injury. McCarthy should have known what Janis was capable of and been playing him all along. He didn't even know his own players, giving Don Barclay and Josh Sitton calamitous late-season starts at LT when the capable JC Tretter was the obvious choice. McCarthy's dominance of the division, remarkable record as a touchdown-or-more favorite, rich history as a second-half-of-the-season team and winning ways at Lambeau Field all were diminished. The 58 penalties on offense were a high for a McCarthy-coached team. What didn't leave McCarthy was his sustained excellence in turnover differential. At plus-6 for 18 games, he's now plus-99 for his 175-game tenure. It's why he has won at a .643 clip.

He didn't look too kindly on TT's moves either:


PERSONNEL MOVES (C-minus)

The final four playoff teams all were heavily involved in free agency in the spring, summer and fall. True to form, GM Ted Thompson in his 11th season adhered to his home-grown philosophy of roster building. He hasn't signed an unrestricted free agent since 2012 or traded for a player since 2010. From Jan. 20 to Aug. 1, the Packers signed 34 free agents. The best turned out to be CB LaDarius Gunter, who played 39 snaps. Thompson's only move of consequence was re-signing Jones, who appeared Sept. 5 on the Giants' cut list. Of the nine players added after the opener, three came from reserve lists, four from the practice squad, LB Joe Thomas from the Cowboys' practice squad and LS Rick Lovato from the street. In the draft, Thompson might have hit big with QB Brett Hundley in the fifth round and cornerbacks Damarious Randall and Quinten Rollins in the top two rounds. Montgomery, Jake Ryan and Aaron Ripkowski might be starters, too. Even as the crying need for a tight end became obvious in camp, Thompson passed on Jermaine Gresham and Vernon Davis. He didn't add any speed at WR, either. Management re-signed Letroy Guion and didn't cut Andrew Quarless after their gun-related arrests in Florida. Instead of letting backup SS Sean Richardson go, the Packers retained him by matching the Raiders' exorbitant offer sheet ($2.35 million guaranteed). With $6.954M in cap space at year's end, the Packers rolled it over to their 2016 cap.

[pbmax]

M3 has had holes developing on offense for some time and this year, without a reliable deep threat or TE down the seam, the chickens all came home to roost.

If he didn't see it coming, I am somewhat concerned. He has to know other facets were found wanting after this year. What used to be a liability only against the best defenses able to play Cover 2 Man and rush the passer with 4 was now a vulnerability for all to exploit.

Nelson or no, that has to be fixed and it needs to start with the no huddle.

However, the rubric of having a Pro Bowl QB and getting to the playoffs being mundane is getting tiresome:

Brady is an exception because of his coach and his Division.
Ben R. missed playoffs 4 years
Drew Brees missed playoffs 9 times (horrible Division with up and down Atlanta)
Peyton Manning missed playoffs 3 times (horrible Divisions)
Brett Favre missed playoffs 7 times
John Elway missed playoffs 6 times
Steve Young missed playoffs 3 times
Phillip Rivers missed playoffs 7 times
Eli Manning missed playoffs 7 times
Tony Romo missed playoffs 7 times
Matt Ryan missed playoffs 4 times

Aaron Rodgers missed 1 playoff, his first as a starter

[ThunderDan]

I don't get why he disliked TT's moves so much.

The Packers were the preseason odds on favorite to win the Super Bowl. To me that says you have a pretty good team put together to have Las Vegas rank you as #1. Obviously, the season didn't turn out how we wanted.

[wist43]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

[Smidgeon]

I don't get why he disliked TT's moves so much.

The Packers were the preseason odds on favorite to win the Super Bowl. To me that says you have a pretty good team put together to have Las Vegas rank you as #1. Obviously, the season didn't turn out how we wanted.

And the high round draft picks look like gold...

[Patler]

It is really unbelievable. McGinn references personnel moves as far back as 2010, but cleverly selects terminology so that he can completely ignore the signing of a possible HOF'er to a 3 year, $26 million contract in 2014.

Would it have been a better, more positive signing if Peppers had been a free agent because his contract expired, instead of it being terminated because the Bears couldn't, or didn't want to afford it?

The same applies to Guion, although an obviously much less significant contract and player.

[esoxx]

McGinn nails it in this answer me thinks:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/366380861.html

Q: Journeyman, New Orleans, LA - Bob, in Andre Agassi's memoir, he describes what happened when longtime coach Brad Gilbert left his coaching team. Gilbert said essentially "we've been together for almost a decade and we could keep going, but we've run through my bag of tricks. We've worked together long enough. You need a fresh voice". I feel like that can happen when any partnership runs long enough. This season will be Rodgers tenth with McCarthy and ninth with Clements, and I'm not calling for anyones head, but I think Rodgers badly needs a fresh voice to get him out of his head and back to consistency in his mechanics. Your thoughts?

A: Bob McGinn - JM: Rodgers has had four QB coaches: Bevell, Clements, McAdoo and Van Pelt. Joe Philbin, as OC, also was heavily involved with him. As for McCarthy, coaching QBs might be what he does best. The work McCarthy and Clements did in developing Rodgers should never be minimized. Can't anyone remember how awful Rodgers was in the summers of 2005 and 2006? That was fantastic coaching to get him where he is now. Hey, it's up to Rodgers. He has been taught the proper mechanics but people that are the best in the business at it. If he wants to keep throwing all arm off his back foot and bolting the pocket prematurely and sulking when adversity strikes or whatever else, coaches can't stop that. Rodgers just needs to play better next season.

[Pugger]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

It isn't a salve. It is just pointing out that it is damn difficult to win a SB multiple times even when you have a top QB, HC, GM and excellent facilities. None of that guarantees squat.

[mraynrand]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

I know, really. We are - we are homers and losers because we think it's unreasonable to expect to win Superbowls every year. Someone needs to come by and beat the shit out of us until we recognize conspiracies in everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - and then start just accepting the fact that if we don't win the Superbowl every year, things are terrible and miserable and people need a firin' 'til things start getting right around here. cuz Rodgers ain't gettin' younger and TT refuses to surround him with the talent he needs to win. Or something like that.

[Maxie the Taxi]

http://www.quotesdata.com/Vince_Lombardi_quote1.jpg

[mraynrand]

http://www.quotesdata.com/Vince_Lombardi_quote1.jpg


That's what my brother said to me just before he sailed away under my contraption of fourteen linked kites in a high wind. My parents still haven't forgiven me.

[Striker]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/You%E2%80%99re-an-idiot.jpg

[pbmax]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

A person or a team cannot hope to improve if they do not first correctly identify their shortcomings.

~ Aeschylus


Bob McGinn is a font of disinformation.

~ pbmax

[pbmax]

I don't get why he disliked TT's moves so much.

The Packers were the preseason odds on favorite to win the Super Bowl. To me that says you have a pretty good team put together to have Las Vegas rank you as #1. Obviously, the season didn't turn out how we wanted.

And he identified them himself as such. Then he reiterated it after they lost Nelson.

So in hindsight, Ted sucks.

[Bossman641]

McGinn has to be grading TT on in season moves only. Look how often he has hammered TT for not picking up Vernon Davis, regardless of the fact that Davis was a disappointment in Denver.

[woodbuck27]

McGinn has to be grading TT on in season moves only. Look how often he has hammered TT for not picking up Vernon Davis, regardless of the fact that Davis was a disappointment in Denver.

Vernon Davis may have thrived in Green Bay?

He may have been 'if acquired'...an upgrade from what we see at the TE position at present.

Maybe 'one day' we'll be able to see if that's an actuality!?

Do we simply close the door to such hope? :idea:



GO PACKERS ! GO PACK GO !!

[woodbuck27]

McGinn nails it in this answer me thinks:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/366380861.html

Q: Journeyman, New Orleans, LA - Bob, in Andre Agassi's memoir, he describes what happened when longtime coach Brad Gilbert left his coaching team. Gilbert said essentially "we've been together for almost a decade and we could keep going, but we've run through my bag of tricks. We've worked together long enough. You need a fresh voice". I feel like that can happen when any partnership runs long enough. This season will be Rodgers tenth with McCarthy and ninth with Clements, and I'm not calling for anyones head, but I think Rodgers badly needs a fresh voice to get him out of his head and back to consistency in his mechanics. Your thoughts?

A: Bob McGinn - JM: Rodgers has had four QB coaches: Bevell, Clements, McAdoo and Van Pelt. Joe Philbin, as OC, also was heavily involved with him. As for McCarthy, coaching QBs might be what he does best. The work McCarthy and Clements did in developing Rodgers should never be minimized. Can't anyone remember how awful Rodgers was in the summers of 2005 and 2006? That was fantastic coaching to get him where he is now. Hey, it's up to Rodgers. He has been taught the proper mechanics but people that are the best in the business at it. If he wants to keep throwing all arm off his back foot and bolting the pocket prematurely and sulking when adversity strikes or whatever else, coaches can't stop that. Rodgers just needs to play better next season.

Yes he certainly does (need to play a lot ....better) and as an assist for him to get there he needs to be properly coached. Aaron Rodgers needs to address his attitude and be realistic in regards to his expectations and perfectionism.

BE...... 'the Team' leader and yet......simply a part of the whole...working with the Packer Roster and sighting the BIG PICTURE and BEST how to ever manage a success there. As it is now and Aaron Rodgers. The Green Bay Packers will underachieve.

When I see Aaron Rodgers facial expressions and body language I see too much that must be changed....improved. He needs to change in terms of his total presence on his team. That will mean a coach that he can respect totally and trust. Some coach will face a real challenge and ARod.

I trust that man (QB Coach) present in the Packer staff or outside of it at present will be put in place.

As a Packer fan I feel that we need his every success. There's plenty we all might see that's wrong and ARod ......based in what we all might have seen last season.

GO PACK GO !

[Patler]

McGinn has to be grading TT on in season moves only. Look how often he has hammered TT for not picking up Vernon Davis, regardless of the fact that Davis was a disappointment in Denver.

If TT had gone out and gotten Davis, in his typical hindsight style McGinn would have criticized TT for wasting the investment on an obviously descending player, and wasting snaps on a player with no future when they could have given a younger player valuable experience.

[woodbuck27]

If TT had gone out and gotten Davis, in his typical hindsight style McGinn would have criticized TT for wasting the investment on an obviously descending player, and wasting snaps on a player with no future when they could have given a younger player valuable experience.

Your point on this 'of course' has merit.

Now can we agree that TT has to find that TE of which we are in great need?

[Patler]

Your point on this 'of course' has merit.

Now can we agree that TT has to find that TE of which we are in great need?

Definitely a position that needs improvement. I think R. Rodgers can provide more than he did this year, not in the nature of top flight production, but 10 yards when you need it. Backman is an unknown. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the draft has what they need, or not. They may have to continue searching for a needle in the haystack of middle round draft picks.

I think it would help if they at least found a really good blocking TE. Right now they have neither a receiver who causes concern to opposing defenses, nor a solid blocker who can be relied on in protection or the running game. Basically they have guys that defenses can "ignore" in game planning.

[woodbuck27]

Definitely a position that needs improvement. I think R. Rodgers can provide more than he did this year, not in the nature of top flight production, but 10 yards when you need it. Backman is an unknown. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the draft has what they need, or not. They may have to continue searching for a needle in the haystack of middle round draft picks.

I think it would help if they at least found a really good blocking TE. Right now they have neither a receiver who causes concern to opposing defenses, nor a solid blocker who can be relied on in protection or the running game. Basically they have guys that defenses can "ignore" in game planning.

Scout the Zulu Nation:

http://interesting-africa-facts.com/Images/Zulu-Warrior.jpg

[Pugger]

If TT had gone out and gotten Davis, in his typical hindsight style McGinn would have criticized TT for wasting the investment on an obviously descending player, and wasting snaps on a player with no future when they could have given a younger player valuable experience.

Yup.

[Pugger]

Definitely a position that needs improvement. I think R. Rodgers can provide more than he did this year, not in the nature of top flight production, but 10 yards when you need it. Backman is an unknown. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the draft has what they need, or not. They may have to continue searching for a needle in the haystack of middle round draft picks.

I think it would help if they at least found a really good blocking TE. Right now they have neither a receiver who causes concern to opposing defenses, nor a solid blocker who can be relied on in protection or the running game. Basically they have guys that defenses can "ignore" in game planning.

I wonder if looking at RRod's size they thought he'd be a better blocker than he presently is?

[pbmax]

I wonder if looking at RRod's size they thought he'd be a better blocker than he presently is?

Might be part of the reason his coach is no longer employed.

Finley defended Fontenot on line, which is a bit ironic since there were parts of Finley's game (routes and blocking) that did not improve materially.

[Pugger]

Finley might have liked Fontenot personally but that doesn't make him the right coach for the job.

[mraynrand]

Scout the Zulu Nation:

http://interesting-africa-facts.com/Images/Zulu-Warrior.jpg

racist

[Patler]

Might be part of the reason his coach is no longer employed.

Finley defended Fontenot on line, which is a bit ironic since there were parts of Finley's game (routes and blocking) that did not improve materially.

Fontenot only had Finley for a year +, but if MM was seeing a similar lack of development of RR in two years. he had to look elsewhere for a TE coach.

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't think anyone would criticize TT for for spending a couple low round picks to acquire a guy and try to get better. Hearts in the right place. Failure is part of growing.

[Fritz]

I love how you homers are using the failures of others as a salve for the failures of our own.

Losers and excuse makers think in such terms.

Not everybody's a winner like Wist.

[Smidgeon]

I don't think anyone would criticize TT for for spending a couple low round picks to acquire a guy and try to get better. Hearts in the right place. Failure is part of growing.

Interesting comment. Thought I'd go look at TT's 6th and 7th round draft picks and see how well he did, excluding the most recent draft:

Still on Packers
Still in NFL (per PFR)

2005: 1/4 contributed/started
6 Mike Montgomery
6 Craig Bragg
7 Kurt Campbell
7 Will Whitticker

2006: 1/2 contributed/started
6 Johnny Jolly
7 Dave Tollefson

2007: 3/5 contributed/started
6 Korey hall
6 Desmond Bishop
6 Mason Crosby
7 DeShawn Wynn
7 Clark Harris

2008: 1/2 contributed/started
7 Matt Flynn
7 Brett Swain

2009: 1/3 contributed/started
6 Jarius Wynn
6 Brandon Underwood
7 Brad Jones

2010: 2/2 contributed/started
6 James Starks
7 CJ Wilson

2011: 1/5 contributed/started
6 Caleb Schlauderaff
6 DJ Smith
6 Ricky Elmore
7 Ryan Taylor
7 Lawrence Guy

2012: 0/2 contributed/started
7 Andrew Datko
7 BJ Coleman

2013: 2/4 contributed/started
6 Nate Palmer
7 Charles Johnson
7 Kevin Dorsey
7 Sam Barrington

2014: 2/2 show promise
6 Demetri Goodson
7 Jeff Janis


So by subjective count...

2005: 1/4 contributed/started
2006: 1/4 contributed/started
2007: 3/5 contributed/started
2008: 1/2 contributed/started
2009: 1/3 contributed/started
2010: 2/2 contributed/started
2011: 1/5 contributed/started
2012: 0/2 contributed/started
2013: 2/4 contributed/started
2014: 2/2 show promise

...for a grand total hit rate of 14/31 = 45%.

The best players were Brad Jones, Desmond Bishop, Johnny Jolly, Mason Crosby, and Sam Barrington (I suddenly find it utterly fascinating that Green Bay's best starting ILBs have been in the sixth/seventh round...

The other interesting note is that TT has only completely missed on three players (i.e. the player never actually made a final roster):
Craig Bragg and Kurt Campbell in 2005 (rounds 6 and 7)
Cory Rodgers in 2006 (round 4)
Everyone else has made a final roster. Not a bad record.

EDIT: Corrected some math

[Fritz]

But not good enough, damnit.

[pbmax]

Remember those TEs that Thompson should sign?

J Gresham caught 18 passes for Arizona, including zero in the playoffs.

V Davis caught 38 for 395 and 0 TDs.

[Fritz]

Hmmm....maybe Jimmy Graham's available.

For JC Tretter.

[Patler]

2005: 1/4 contributed/started
6 Mike Montgomery
6 Craig Bragg
7 Kurt Campbell
7 Will Whitticker


I'm a bit unclear how you rated the players. For example, who is the "1" from 2005, Whitticker who started for a year, or Montgomery who played five years for them?

[Bretsky]

Remember those TEs that Thompson should sign?

J Gresham caught 18 passes for Arizona, including zero in the playoffs.

V Davis caught 38 for 395 and 0 TDs.


convenient of you to leave out the productive TE's who were available last year and strong commodities during the unrestricted free agency period....you know..the time when we discuss the draft in here

[Smidgeon]

I wasn't sure how to rate that year. I think my rule of thumb was "Do I remember them starting at least one game?" and I couldn't remember if Montgomery had. Almost everyone else who was a contributor started several games.

[pbmax]

convenient of you to leave out the productive TE's who were available last year and strong commodities during the unrestricted free agency period....you know..the time when we discuss the draft in here

Names of those who didn't re-sign with their teams?

[Patler]

I wasn't sure how to rate that year. I think my rule of thumb was "Do I remember them starting at least one game?" and I couldn't remember if Montgomery had. Almost everyone else who was a contributor started several games.

Montgomery didn't start very often, but he was part of their DL rotation for 5 years. That's a very good return on a 6th or 7th round pick.

[Bretsky]

Names of those who didn't re-sign with their teams?

W/O even looking guys that went into the unrestricted free agency period were Delanie Walker, Charles Clay, and Jordan Cameron.

[wist43]

Not everybody's a winner like Wist.

Would Vince think in those terms??

I rest my case.

[wist43]

Interesting comment. Thought I'd go look at TT's 6th and 7th round draft picks and see how well he did, excluding the most recent draft:

Still on Packers
Still in NFL (per PFR)

2005: 1/4 contributed/started
6 Mike Montgomery
6 Craig Bragg
7 Kurt Campbell
7 Will Whitticker

2006: 1/2 contributed/started
6 Johnny Jolly
7 Dave Tollefson

2007: 3/5 contributed/started
6 Korey hall
6 Desmond Bishop
6 Mason Crosby
7 DeShawn Wynn
7 Clark Harris

2008: 1/2 contributed/started
7 Matt Flynn
7 Brett Swain

2009: 1/3 contributed/started
6 Jarius Wynn
6 Brandon Underwood
7 Brad Jones

2010: 2/2 contributed/started
6 James Starks
7 CJ Wilson

2011: 1/5 contributed/started
6 Caleb Schlauderaff
6 DJ Smith
6 Ricky Elmore
7 Ryan Taylor
7 Lawrence Guy

2012: 0/2 contributed/started
7 Andrew Datko
7 BJ Coleman

2013: 2/4 contributed/started
6 Nate Palmer
7 Charles Johnson
7 Kevin Dorsey
7 Sam Barrington

2014: 2/2 show promise
6 Demetri Goodson
7 Jeff Janis


So by subjective count...

2005: 1/4 contributed/started
2006: 1/4 contributed/started
2007: 3/5 contributed/started
2008: 1/2 contributed/started
2009: 1/3 contributed/started
2010: 2/2 contributed/started
2011: 1/5 contributed/started
2012: 0/2 contributed/started
2013: 2/4 contributed/started
2014: 2/2 show promise

...for a grand total hit rate of 14/31 = 45%.

The best players were Brad Jones, Desmond Bishop, Johnny Jolly, Mason Crosby, and Sam Barrington (I suddenly find it utterly fascinating that Green Bay's best starting ILBs have been in the sixth/seventh round...

The other interesting note is that TT has only completely missed on three players (i.e. the player never actually made a final roster):
Craig Bragg and Kurt Campbell in 2005 (rounds 6 and 7)
Cory Rodgers in 2006 (round 4)
Everyone else has made a final roster. Not a bad record.

EDIT: Corrected some math

When did Schlauderaff ever contribute?? Elmore got cut right out of the gate... DJ Smith?? That's contributing??

As for the "hit rate"... that is misleading, b/c afterall, the draft is TT's only means of player procurement - of course some of those guys need to play. Just b/c they played, you can't say they "contributed"... what does "contributed" mean?? A bartender can "contribute" for a game or two...

What we need is impact players at the top of the draft, and fill lineup holes with vets that can provide a year or two. Mining for diamonds in the rough is all well and good, and necessary; but, a GM can't be so myopic as to say 'to hell with this years on-field product - some of my mining projects might be ready by next year'. In the mean time, the clock is ticking on blue-chip vets, and years are ticking by...

This years whack-a-mole disaster reared its ugly head on the OL - would it have killed TT to have signed a veteran OT who had a year left in the tank?? (no suggestions, as I'm not going to bother researching who was available). Instead, TT and MM philosophize that we can move this C/G/OT here, and that C/G/OT there, and round and round she goes...

There's a serious flaw in TT's approach, even though the core of his philosophy is correct.

We'll see moving forward, but I would bet dollars to donuts that next is a repeat of this year. We weren't good enough to win the division, and we got predictably bounced when we met a good team in the playoffs.

[Patler]

We'll see moving forward, but I would bet dollars to donuts that next is a repeat of this year. We weren't good enough to win the division, and we got predictably bounced when we met a good team in the playoffs.

Well, that's a bet that will be won in one way or another by 31 teams next year, so I suspect you will be correct.
Predicting that a team will not make, or will get beat in the playoffs is about as safe a prediction as there is.

[Fritz]

Well, that's a bet that will be won in one way or another by 31 teams next year, so I suspect you will be correct.
Predicting that a team will not make, or will get beat in the playoffs is about as safe a prediction as there is.

The real problem, as Wist points out, is Thompson's attitude - the hell with this year's product.

If TT cared more about winning and less about his egotistical need to develop only draft picks and preferably lower-round ones, and if he'd draft more manly offensive linemen, we wouldn't be mired in such mediocrity.

Oh, and if we fired Dom Capers, too. Almost forgot that key element.

[mraynrand]

We'll see moving forward, but I would bet dollars to donuts that next is a repeat of this year.

I'll take that bet, but only if I get a coffee with it.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMBd2Au1UUTrrkt6NMSXlgS8vK2e58o lf5n687h6qmrbwR26nx

[Smidgeon]

Moving that needle to 2/4, TT's hit rate for starter/heavy rotation player in the lowest rounds of the draft is 48%. Which is amazing, actually.

[pbmax]

W/O even looking guys that went into the unrestricted free agency period were Delanie Walker, Charles Clay, and Jordan Cameron.

Walker was fine ($17/4). Did Clay have a monster season or come off a monster season? He got 5 years and $38 million. He had one year cap hit of $13 million, otherwise averages nearly $7 mil per year on cap. I don't think that is in the budget.

Jordan Cameron ($15/2). Nope.

[mraynrand]

W/O even looking guys that went into the unrestricted free agency period were Delanie Walker, Charles Clay, and Jordan Cameron.

Jordan Cameron is a piece of shit for the money he's getting. 4.5 2015 and 9.5 2016 against the cap for 35 receptions and a few TDs. Much rather have Cameron Jordan.

[3irty1]

Since we've already got Dickrod who's at worst a stopgap you can win with I hope Ted swings for the fence on a TE. I want the Janis equivalent of a TE. A super freak with unlimited upside and probably a position change or learning disability. I'm imagining Lenny from Of Mice and Men.

[mraynrand]

Since we've already got Dickrod who's at worst a stopgap you can win with I hope Ted swings for the fence on a TE. I want the Janis equivalent of a TE. A super freak with unlimited upside and probably a position change or learning disability. I'm imagining Lenny from Of Mice and Men.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV1LOFuddes

[pbmax]

^Also likely to be a (former) basketball player.

[Pugger]

Hmmm....maybe Jimmy Graham's available.

For JC Tretter.

I'd rather keep Tretter...

[call_me_ishmael]

Smidgeon, while it is cool to dig through games started, etc, I think it's a false step. Someone has to start every game, so that doesn't necessarily say much about quality or if the player on the Packers is significantly better than someone they could find off the street that could step in.

Without question, the odds of landing a difference maker are better the higher you pick. Frankly, the Packers have enough "guys", and could use an extra difference maker or two. I would not be mad at all if they gave up all of their lower round picks for additional rounds 1-4 picks.

[wist43]

I'll take that bet, but only if I get a coffee with it.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMBd2Au1UUTrrkt6NMSXlgS8vK2e58o lf5n687h6qmrbwR26nx

Theoretically our schedule is easier - so we got that going for us, but...

We finished 10-6, and 3-3 in the division - that would have been 9-7 and 2-4 but for a hail mary.

We're going to lose some good players - and TT will not go outside the organization to replace them; hence, we are likely to regress a bit. They will never change their philosophy with respect to the offensive line, so the first time someone goes down, it will be musical chairs with a bunch of non-run blocking, out of position G's attempting to play T. Translation? Rodgers will be running for his life again, and MM will get him sacked 6 times in the first half of every game until he figures out he needs to give the T's help...

It'll be the same old rerun... TT and MM are remarkably consistent.

[woodbuck27]

Since we've already got Dickrod who's at worst a stopgap you can win with I hope Ted swings for the fence on a TE. I want the Janis equivalent of a TE. A super freak with unlimited upside and probably a position change or learning disability. I'm imagining Lenny from Of Mice and Men.

" Thick as a Brick " !? mmmm

We DO...........need toughness !!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3d/46/95/3d469587215bf77b2ffb40f98a070477.jpg

[woodbuck27]

Theoretically our schedule is easier - so we got that going for us, but...

We finished 10-6, and 3-3 in the division - that would have been 9-7 and 2-4 but for a hail mary.

We're going to lose some good players - and TT will not go outside the organization to replace them; hence, we are likely to regress a bit. They will never change their philosophy with respect to the offensive line, so the first time someone goes down, it will be musical chairs with a bunch of non-run blocking, out of position G's attempting to play T. Translation? Rodgers will be running for his life again, and MM will get him sacked 6 times in the first half of every game until he figures out he needs to give the T's help...

It'll be the same old rerun... TT and MM are remarkably consistent.

Translation: One word and TT and MM.

Here it comes from 'ONE' that knows !

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVbco1g5YEzPjvSITOyjh7E1IMCCJuk oQ1i6Fn4jkVEPBP--d6WQ

L O S E R S !! !! !! !! !!

[mraynrand]

Theoretically our schedule is easier - so we got that going for us, but...

We finished 10-6, and 3-3 in the division - that would have been 9-7 and 2-4 but for a hail mary.

We're going to lose some good players - and TT will not go outside the organization to replace them; hence, we are likely to regress a bit. They will never change their philosophy with respect to the offensive line, so the first time someone goes down, it will be musical chairs with a bunch of non-run blocking, out of position G's attempting to play T. Translation? Rodgers will be running for his life again, and MM will get him sacked 6 times in the first half of every game until he figures out he needs to give the T's help...

It'll be the same old rerun... TT and MM are remarkably consistent.

So, cutting to the chase, if GB makes the NFC Championship in the 2016 season, you owe me a donut and coffee. If they lose in the Divisional or earlier, I owe you the same.

[Joemailman]

It'll be the same old rerun... TT and MM are remarkably consistent.

They're not the only ones.