Will 2005 be repeated in 2017?

[Patler]

TT came to GB in 2005, and inherited a 2004 roster with 2 of the best guards in the league, but both had contracts that had come to an end. Rivera was a 9 year veteran, Mike Wahle a 7 year veteran. As we all know, both Rivera and Wahle signed very large contracts with other teams, and GB was left looking for replacements.

Assuming nothing changes drastically during the upcoming season, in 2017, again the Packers will have two of the best guards in the league, both with expired contracts. Sitton will be a 9 year veteran, Lang an 8 year veteran. Both could be hot commodities on the FA market.

Differences in the situations then and now:
- In 2005 GB had a very difficult salary cap situation. That will not be the case in 2017.
- While they had similar experience, Sitton will be two years younger than Rivera was in 2005.
- The roster TT inherited had no suitable replacement guards under contract or FA guards who might be resigned more cheaply than the starters. In 2017 it looks like they will have Taylor under contract and possibly Walker and/or Rotheram as FAs who might be resigned cheaper than Sitton or Lang. Then there is also Tretter who could be resigned as a piece somewhere. There is also the possibility of a 2016 addition through the draft.
- In 2005 the rest of the starting line was under contract, 2017 will have Bakhtiari also as a FA.

So what will TT do? Sign one, both, neither of Sitton and Lang?

[Carolina_Packer]

You're right, Pat. He's put the team in a good spot. As much as he gets knocked for being boring in free agency, he and Russ Ball do a good job of keeping the Packers cap situation healthy, and having a 'long game' as to how they need to juggle all of time lines for the contracts they have in the system, while doing a good job of evaluating the guys who are worth the additional contract. He gets credit for drafting well for the most part, but I think he also does a good job re-signing the right guys. There are things I don't agree with, too. I think he has taken too long to fix the ILB position, just like a few years ago the team took too long to have a suitable backup QB, and should have realized that Graham Harrell was not the answer, and signing Seneca Wallace and Vince Young last minute was poor planning. Sometimes loyalty and patience is not rewarded, but I'm sure players appreciate that they get a fair shake in Green Bay.

I can't even imagine what the cap health is on some of these teams that continue to sign free agents, or go cash over cap with a few top players. I'm looking at you Detroit and New Orleans. As long as TT is in Green Bay, and perhaps as long as Mark Murphy is there too, the Packers will manage their cap well. Having "The Man" and a well-managed cap is a good place to be.

[Patler]

The Graham Harrell situation has always been interesting to me. I have to believe that MM is as responsible for that as was TT, perhaps even more so. It seems likely to me that TT would have deferred to MM's evaluation and opinion about Harrell in the backup position. In defense of both, I read several times that in the class room and on the practice field, Harrell was extremely good, he just couldn't transfer that to real time game action. As a coach or evaluator, those types of players can drive you crazy. You know he knows it, you see him do it in practice, and you wait and wait and wait for it to come through in games, but it never does. That type of player can make you look really bad in two ways; first, if you stick with him but he never comes through for you; and second. if you give up on him and he goes elsewhere and then the light comes on for him.

[Pugger]

The Graham Harrell situation has always been interesting to me. I have to believe that MM is as responsible for that as was TT, perhaps even more so. It seems likely to me that TT would have deferred to MM's evaluation and opinion about Harrell in the backup position. In defense of both, I read several times that in the class room and on the practice field, Harrell was extremely good, he just couldn't transfer that to real time game action. As a coach or evaluator, those types of players can drive you crazy. You know he knows it, you see him do it in practice, and you wait and wait and wait for it to come through in games, but it never does. That type of player can make you look really bad in two ways; first, if you stick with him but he never comes through for you; and second. if you give up on him and he goes elsewhere and then the light comes on for him.

This had to be why MM and company kept this kid around for so long. He is now the OC and QB coach at the U of North Texas. Guys like him probably make decent coaches.

[Patler]

This had to be why MM and company kept this kid around for so long. He is now the OC and QB coach at the U of North Texas. Guys like him probably make decent coaches.

The certainly had a lot more patience with him than with the self-proclaimed best 7th round draft picker ever, BJ Coleman.

[Carolina_Packer]

The certainly had a lot more patience with him than with the self-proclaimed best 7th round draft picker ever, BJ Coleman.

I think their experience with Harrell informed them when they had their epiphany on both of them in the same training camp. The problem then was having the scramble to find someone suitable, and even worse when ARod went down vs. the Bears in 2013. If you are TT and MM at that moment, I'm sure you feel like you failed on many levels. Thank goodness for Hundley. I think they should bring in a legit QB either late in the draft or priority free agency that can try and push Hundley. I didn't like when Harrell was treated like the de facto backup QB.

[esoxx]

I don't think there's any question at least one is allowed to walk. I think they have a very competent back up in Lane Taylor and he'll step in and perform just fine as a starter when the time comes.

Save your cap money for the tackle positions.

[Guiness]

Returning to the, admittedly less sexy, OP topic, guards.

The Pack is not in near the situation they were in 2005.

IIRC (can't find much info) Wahle's contract wasn't finished, it had a balloon payment that forced the Packer's hand, and they had to cut him, making him a vested veteran FA. He wanted, and got, LT money from Carolina, which wasn't going to happen in GB because of Clifton.

Riviera was a different story. The Brooklyn boy had gutted it out and stayed in the starting lineup, but his body was breaking down and everyone knew it. I think most expected him to be retained at a reasonable rate, but it only takes one idiot GM, and Jerry Jones stepped in and gave him a $9M signing bonus, a record for a guard at the time.

I think they will be able to retain one or both guards if they want to. I suspect if they don't extend Sitton this season though, that someone might throw him a big contract.

[George Cumby]

Iirc, Rivera didn't come within a country mile of earning his money, so that was a good non-signing.

Whale had a good long career, also iirc, but was so out of our price range he was unsignable. Thanks Shermy! So, to some degree, also a good decision.

The big problem was the lack of bodies behind those two. Also Sherman's problem. Not so this year. Especially with a slew of fourth round picks.

I'm guessing one goes but one stays.

[Patler]

I keep jumping from one thought to another about what they will do with their guards. These guards are a big part of the OL, more solid than the tackles are, and if the Packers want to, they can find the money for both. On the other hand, while their salary cap situation will be decent, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay two of the top guard contracts in the league, if that's what it takes to sign both. Logic tells me they paid Lane Taylor for a reason more than to sit the bench for two years, but then again it is a relatively inexpensive fall back position for 2017 even if they can resign both Sitton & Lang. They also seem high on Rotheram. It's not unreasonable to think that they can find one competent replacement already on the roster, and save some money by letting one of Sitton and Lang leave for a big payday.

Then again, maybe they can draft a good OL this year capable of playing LT, so they can resign Sitton and Lang while letting Bakhtiari leave.

Long and short of it, the draft might give us a better hint about what might happen. Then, preseason and the regular season will give us a better guide.

[pbmax]

I can't see them doing another multi-year deal for Sitton. He can't practice during the week as it is.

[Patler]

Iirc, Rivera didn't come within a country mile of earning his money, so that was a good non-signing.

Whale had a good long career, also iirc, but was so out of our price range he was unsignable. Thanks Shermy! So, to some degree, also a good decision.

The big problem was the lack of bodies behind those two. Also Sherman's problem. Not so this year. Especially with a slew of fourth round picks.

I'm guessing one goes but one stays.

That's what I have been saying for 10 years. Having both contracts effectively end AND no one at all on the roster to step in for even one of them was extremely poor GM work. It looks like they have one competent replacement in Taylor, albeit almost certainly a step down from the starters; and at least a couple to fight for another spot this year.

[Patler]

I can't see them doing another multi-year deal for Sitton. He can't practice during the week as it is.

Ya, physically he isn't far from where Rivera was in 2005, except this year he didn't miss any game time, did he?
For that matter, Lang has also had two successive years of physical issues, and now has a surgically repaired shoulder.

Wouldn't it be nice if both Taylor and Rotheram step up this year and make both Lang and Sitton expendable?
Each is a bit bigger than Sitton & Lang, as is Walker, too.

But then again, Sitton and Lang are darned good!

[mraynrand]

I can't see them doing another multi-year deal for Sitton. He can't practice during the week as it is.

I know there are 31 other teams, some very foolish, but if he's this physically limited, what kind of payday is he gonna get?

[Patler]

I know there are 31 other teams, some very foolish, but if he's this physically limited, what kind of payday is he gonna get?

Dallas paid Rivera, didn't they?

[BZnDallas]

Dallas paid Rivera, didn't they?

2 words..... Jerrah Jones

[mraynrand]

Dallas paid Rivera, didn't they?

Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly.

:)

[RashanGary]

There is a lot to be considered. Primarily health and price. The other thing is, how much do you like the young guys and who do we draft. I can see Scinerios where we keep one, both or neither. Health permitting, I like Sitton better and think he could be that pros pro that plays to 35. Ideally I'd want to keep him and usher in a new guy. If I had to guess what is going to happen, I would guess we keep Lang and let Sitton go because health. My gut says sittons back is bad.

At the end of the day though, the Packers are perpetual winners and have one of the best GMs in football. Whatever they choose, I have confidence that it was made in good judgement and the Packers will continue to win a lot of football games. I highly doubt it will be a repeat of 2005 because Tt has us set up better both financially and with roster depth.

[George Cumby]

Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly.

:)

Poetry.

[Pugger]

Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly.

:)

Ewwwww! :-P

[woodbuck27]

Returning to the, admittedly less sexy, OP topic, guards.

The Pack is not in near the situation they were in 2005.

IIRC (can't find much info) Wahle's contract wasn't finished, it had a balloon payment that forced the Packer's hand, and they had to cut him, making him a vested veteran FA. He wanted, and got, LT money from Carolina, which wasn't going to happen in GB because of Clifton.

Riviera was a different story. The Brooklyn boy had gutted it out and stayed in the starting lineup, but his body was breaking down and everyone knew it. I think most expected him to be retained at a reasonable rate, but it only takes one idiot GM, and Jerry Jones stepped in and gave him a $9M signing bonus, a record for a guard at the time.

I think they will be able to retain one or both guards if they want to. I suspect if they don't extend Sitton this season though, that someone might throw him a big contract.

I hope we retain Sitton.

[woodbuck27]

The Graham Harrell situation has always been interesting to me. I have to believe that MM is as responsible for that as was TT, perhaps even more so. It seems likely to me that TT would have deferred to MM's evaluation and opinion about Harrell in the backup position. In defense of both, I read several times that in the class room and on the practice field, Harrell was extremely good, he just couldn't transfer that to real time game action. As a coach or evaluator, those types of players can drive you crazy. You know he knows it, you see him do it in practice, and you wait and wait and wait for it to come through in games, but it never does. That type of player can make you look really bad in two ways; first, if you stick with him but he never comes through for you; and second. if you give up on him and he goes elsewhere and then the light comes on for him.

I too hope that TT drafts a QB.

Then looking at this draft and late round picks:

He may rather elect to pick a guard or two after Round four. He needs to back himself up on the OL.