Packers Release Palmer

[Striker]

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 26m26 minutes ago
#Packers have also informed ILB Nate Palmer that he has been released. Palmer played 539 snaps last year but lost job to rookie Jake Ryan.

Well, that leaves Barrington, Ryan, Thomas, and maybe Clay. You'd have to imagine they'll go at the position within the first three rounds of the draft.

[Patler]

They must see no hope for him in their system at all. They have lots of room on their roster, even after the draft.

Could it be that Carl Bradford is starting to show something for the 4th round draft pick used on him? The did resign Bradford after the season, and apparently are keeping him over Palmer now.

[George Cumby]

Wasnt Palmer Kevin Greene's Extra Special Recruit Unique Project out of Southern Illinois?

[esoxx]

...

[wist43]

They must see no hope for him in their system at all. They have lots of room on their roster, even after the draft.

Could it be that Carl Bradford is starting to show something for the 4th round draft pick used on him? The did resign Bradford after the season, and apparently are keeping him over Palmer now.

Bradford is a complete slug - they kept him over Palmer b/c of the draft pick. In reality, neither can play.

TT simply doesn't care about some positions - ILB is one of them. There is no reason whatsoever to think that TT will use a pick in the first 3 rounds on an ILB. Our need there was just as bad last year - and yet he sat on his thumb until the 4th round, and then picked another slug - Ryan.

TT just doesn't care about the position enough to do much about it.

[Upnorth]

Bradford is a complete slug - they kept him over Palmer b/c of the draft pick. In reality, neither can play.

TT simply doesn't care about some positions - ILB is one of them. There is no reason whatsoever to think that TT will use a pick in the first 3 rounds on an ILB. Our need there was just as bad last year - and yet he sat on his thumb until the 4th round, and then picked another slug - Ryan.

TT just doesn't care about the position enough to do much about it.

Doesn't care is an obtuse ignorant statement. Didn't see value on the draft board where he was drafting is much more obvious. He has put a first round pick into ILB in the past.
But it is more fun to type hyperbole.

[Patler]

A GM "doesn't care" about a position. Ya, that makes sense. :roll:

Since when is using a 4th round pick evidence of ignoring a position?

Over the years, TT has been accused of ignoring guards, centers, O-line generally, running backs, quarterbacks, tight ends, safeties, top WR talent, basically whatever position he hasn't used a high pick on recently. If he drafted ILBs in rounds 1 & 2 last year, people would complain that he ignores CBs, relying instead on undrafted rookies.

[Rutnstrut]

A GM "doesn't care" about a position. Ya, that makes sense. :roll:

Since when is using a 4th round pick evidence of ignoring a position?

Over the years, TT has been accused of ignoring guards, centers, O-line generally, running backs, quarterbacks, tight ends, safeties, top WR talent, basically whatever position he hasn't used a high pick on recently. If he drafted ILBs in rounds 1 & 2 last year, people would complain that he ignores CBs, relying instead on undrafted rookies.

Well if he wasn't so pig headed about free agency they wouldn't have to do it ALL through the draft. But it's all good, I'm sure they will have a solid defense sometime before Rodgers can collect SS.

[wist43]

Doesn't care is an obtuse ignorant statement. Didn't see value on the draft board where he was drafting is much more obvious. He has put a first round pick into ILB in the past.
But it is more fun to type hyperbole.

Perhaps getting burned by taking Hawk with the 5th pick is a contributing factor to why he doesn't invest in the position now?? Although some had Hawk listed as an OLB coming out, I never saw that in him... from long before we drafted him, I've always called Hawk a JAG. Hawk was a below average-to-average starter. Since then TT hasn't done much of anything to improve ILB.

Ryan is a sluggish, 2 down (more like 1.5 down) ILB. He is very limited athletically, and is a huge liability in the passing game. He can play in base 3-4, and in some 2-4 nickel, but that's it.

Palmer just got cut; Barrington, IMO, is better than Ryan at this point, but he too is seriously limited - especially in the passing game: Bradford isn't an NFL caliber player... of all the fodder on the roster now, I probably like Thomas the most, and he's not much more than a borderline NFL player.

Since TT's ignominious pick of Hawk in '06, he has invested the following resources to filling ILB:

2007 - Desmond Bishop, 6th round (Good, but limited player)
2008 - None
2009 - Brad Jones, 7th round (the player we all love to hate)
2010 - None
2011 - DJ Smith, 6th round (had a cup of coffee and was gone)
2011 - Ricky Elmore, 6th round (cut almost immediately)
2012 - Terrell Manning, 5th round (couldn't play)
2013 - Nate Palmer, 6th round, (just released)
2013 - Sam Barrington, 7th round, (Okay player, limited ceiling)
2014 - Carl Bradford, 4th round (has shown nothing - less than nothing actually)
2015 - Jake Ryan, 4th round (Okay, but very limited player)

So in the 10 years since the Hawk pick, TT has invested:

2, 4th round picks
1, 5th round pick
4, 6th round picks
2, 7th round picks

Out of which none can play at a high level in the NFL.

Should we take a look at all the very good ILB's drafted by other teams, that TT passed on for what player/players??

[mraynrand]

He can play in base 3-4

Packers don't play base 3-4.

[wist43]

A GM "doesn't care" about a position. Ya, that makes sense. :roll:

Since when is using a 4th round pick evidence of ignoring a position?

Over the years, TT has been accused of ignoring guards, centers, O-line generally, running backs, quarterbacks, tight ends, safeties, top WR talent, basically whatever position he hasn't used a high pick on recently. If he drafted ILBs in rounds 1 & 2 last year, people would complain that he ignores CBs, relying instead on undrafted rookies.

I value 4th round picks very highly - I don't think Ryan was worth the pick.

Everyone backs TT and extolls the virtues of Randall the Ankle Biter, but I'd have taken Anthony over him; I'd have been just fine with Bernardrick McKinney over Randall; I like Hau'oli Kikaha who was taken in the 2nd round last year - he played outside, but I think he could play inside just fine; Eric Kendricks; Jordan Hicks (played great until injury last year)...

And that's just the first 3 rounds from last year... x how many seasons??

[Upnorth]

Wist,
I agree that he has not invested heavily in ILB, I just think that saying he ignored the position is a very flawed statement. I would like to hear what other positions he doesn't care about in your opinion.
I think he places less value on it, but still definitely cares.

[wist43]

Packers don't play base 3-4.

I know you're being your usual snarky ass, but the 3-4 they don't play is on the field about 10% of the time... so, that would give Ryan 10% of the snaps there. What other packages does he, or should he get PT in?? The answer is only in 2-4 nickels that are looking to play the run... what percentage of snaps is that?? Another 20-30% maybe??

And again, if he is on the field and it is a pass... he's a big liability.

[Patler]

Perhaps getting burned by taking Hawk with the 5th pick is a contributing factor to why he doesn't invest in the position now?? Although some had Hawk listed as an OLB coming out, I never saw that in him... from long before we drafted him, I've always called Hawk a JAG. Hawk was a below average-to-average starter. Since then TT hasn't done much of anything to improve ILB.


So, apparently you believe JAGs should be starting from Day One, I guess.
Why else would you have said this way back when?



Nick,

I like the draft for the most part. In particular, I like Hawk and Hodge quite a bit.

and this:


I've seen enough of Hawk and Hodge to state up front that they should both be on the field from day 1.



or, is it that you become an expert after the fact, like the rest of us? :)

[Upnorth]

I still think hawk was a decent player. I expected more out of the 5th pick, but to play for 9 years isn't bad. It definitely could be worse.

[run pMc]

I think most teams play a lot of nickel and what is often called sub-package. It's to counter modern NFL offenses, which rely heavily on the passing game. That said, it doesn't make sense to invest a lot in ILB's unless there's an obvious stud available at that position. There have been very few of those in recent drafts. Many ILBs often end up only being 2-down players, and from a value perspective it may not make sense to invest a high round pick in one. There's also that luck-of-the-draft thing: compare A.J. Hawk with Patrick Willis.

I think the offensive schemes (hurry up, 3 WR - 1 TE - 1 RB, etc.) also make it more important to have speed, and is why thumpers are getting replaced and some teams are using safeties (ARI, Rams). You could argue Capers was doing a variation of that when Sean Richardson played instead of a LB in what I think they called Big Okie (2CBs, 3 safeties).

I wish Palmer luck -- I think he tried, and got bounced around from OLB to ILB. It would certainly signal that they are planning to make some kind of roster move with the ILBs. I don't think Bradford will make the roster, and I think TT drafts an ILB.

[wist43]

So, apparently you believe JAGs should be starting from Day One, I guess.
Why else would you have said this way back when?




and this:

[/B]


or, is it that you become an expert after the fact, like the rest of us? :)

I kind of talked myself into being okay with the pick... it took some doing though. I know you couldn't care less about Hawk, you just want to poke me in the eye - but leading up to that draft, I didn't want Hawk, and ultimately called him for what he was, a JAG. After we had him, I consigned myself to accept that he could at least play at the NFL level, and wouldn't be a bust for that reason. That said, taking in the totality of his play, he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Hodge was a shame. The kid could play, but his knees coming into the league were like Butkus's leaving it.

[wist43]

I value 4th round picks very highly - I don't think Ryan was worth the pick.

Everyone backs TT and extolls the virtues of Randall the Ankle Biter, but I'd have taken Anthony over him; I'd have been just fine with Bernardrick McKinney over Randall; I like Hau'oli Kikaha who was taken in the 2nd round last year - he played outside, but I think he could play inside just fine; Eric Kendricks; Jordan Hicks (played great until injury last year)...

And that's just the first 3 rounds from last year... x how many seasons??


Wist,
I agree that he has not invested heavily in ILB, I just think that saying he ignored the position is a very flawed statement. I would like to hear what other positions he doesn't care about in your opinion.
I think he places less value on it, but still definitely cares.

He ignored it by passing on LB's that were rated highly, and ultimately performed well, for staying "true to his board"...

No one can tell me that he couldn't have had a single ILB rated similarly to any other player he may have drafted at a given point in any of the last 10 drafts.

I gave some examples just from last years draft of ILB's that were worthy of being picked in the first 3 rounds, and TT passed on all of them for decent players (I would argue), but players that are no more valuable than the ILB's he passed on - capisce??

That's the point - he passed on ILB's that proved themselves to be top-level players for players that may be at about the same talent level, but certainly don't improve the team as much b/c of the obvious, i.e. there is still a gaping hole in the middle of the defense.

I didn't mind that TT went CB necessarily, but the CB I wanted was Darby, who went to the Bills and easily outperformed Randall. Darby ended up on most All-rookie teams, as did Anthony...

So it comes down to TT simply not wanting to invest in the position over other positions; or, if it's a matter of his board?? His board is flawed.

[mraynrand]

I know you're being your usual snarky ass, but the 3-4 they don't play is on the field about 10% of the time... so, that would give Ryan 10% of the snaps there. What other packages does he, or should he get PT in?? The answer is only in 2-4 nickels that are looking to play the run... what percentage of snaps is that?? Another 20-30% maybe??

And again, if he is on the field and it is a pass... he's a big liability.

Not snarky, just correcting your error - again. Yes, he's a liability in pass coverage, based on the 10-20 snaps he played with coverage responsibilities last year, as a rookie, and will be this year for another handful of plays, and assuming he won't progress, and the Packers will use him as their primary pass coverage ILB on passing downs, which they will not.

[Patler]

I kind of talked myself into being okay with the pick... it took some doing though. I know you couldn't care less about Hawk, you just want to poke me in the eye - but leading up to that draft, I didn't want Hawk, and ultimately called him for what he was, a JAG. After we had him, I consigned myself to accept that he could at least play at the NFL level, and wouldn't be a bust for that reason. That said, taking in the totality of his play, he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Hodge was a shame. The kid could play, but his knees coming into the league were like Butkus's leaving it.

Ya, lots of us are good at evaluating guys when their careers are about done.
From your posts at the time, you liked Hawk and thought he should start immediately. Hardly JAG like comments.

You assured us Rodgers would never lead the Packers to the Super Bowl, you figured Brohm would be the starter ultimately, you didn't like the pick of Nelson and hated the Walker trade. You are about as accurate as the rest of us in your predictions.

[wist43]

Ya, lots of us are good at evaluating guys when their careers are about done.
From your posts at the time, you liked Hawk and thought he should start immediately. Hardly JAG like comments.

You assured us Rodgers would never lead the Packers to the Super Bowl, you figured Brohm would be the starter ultimately, you didn't like the pick of Nelson and hated the Walker trade. You are about as accurate as the rest of us in your predictions.

Well, you win Patler - I'm far too unmotivated to take the time to go back and dig up posts...

Misrepresent all you like... it works for politicians.

[Patler]

Well, you win Patler - I'm far too unmotivated to take the time to go back and dig up posts...

Misrepresent all you like... it works for politicians.

Misrepresent? Those are your quotes about Hawk. How is that misrepresentation?

How did I misrepresent your opinion of Rodgers?



The Brohm and Rodgers picks could also be used as object lessons in Teddism... We're told Rodgers was "a steal", "too much value to pass up", blah, blah, blah - does anyone really think the guy will lead us to a SB??? Of course not.

If Rodgers stays the starter (something I seriously doubt) and Brohm rides the bench, the best we could hope for would be a trade in 3-4 years - so did we spend a 2rd rd pick this year essentially to trade it for a future 2nd or 3rd round pick. More wheel spinning than team building.

I think Brohm has a much better chance than Rodgers so I'm not viewing the day as a total loss, but the drafting of Nelson, regardless of whether he turns out to be a player or not, speaks to what I consider to be a fundamentally debilitating flaw in TT - complete and total tunnel vision with respect to each and every player, regardless of position, and without any regard to building a roster.

In the end, TT's philosophy seems to be self-torpedoing... draft the highest rated guy on your board, regardless of whether that means you have to move another good guy off your roster on the other end.

I've said this before - I think it is entirely possible that TT is a great talent evaluator, that can continually supply a franchise with good talent, but will likely never be able to build a championship team.


As forWalker, you stared a thread titled "Walker trade is final. Walker for 4 players (hate this deal) "

[wist43]

Misrepresent? Those are your quotes about Hawk. How is that misrepresentation?

How did I misrepresent your opinion of Rodgers?

I hated the Rodgers pick b/c I thought we were close enough to a title to make a push; but as we've come to learn about TT, he never makes a push. We still had Brett Favre, and I wanted to fill holes. Not much different than now... with Rodgers now only a few years away from hanging them up.

And if you'll remember, Rodgers wasn't Rodgers when we drafted him - he reinvented himself, changed his delivery, and went from having a hitch in his delivery to having one of the quickest releases in the league. Made him a completely different QB.

As for the quotes about Hawk, they misrepresent my take on him b/c I didn't want him. I wanted Hgata or Davis. I only signed off on Hawk after convincing myself that he wouldn't be a bust. As for saying that he would be a starter on day 1?? Well, duh...



As forWalker, you stared a thread titled "Walker trade is final. Walker for 4 players (hate this deal) "

And when it comes to the Walker trade - in terms of talent, yeah I hated that trade. Walker was a mega-talented WR, but of course how could we know he was also a psychopath??

One of the most important things in evaluating these players is their character and what is going on inside their head. We as armchair GMs can't possibly see that, so we have no way of knowing. Walker had something go wrong in his head... b/c that guy flamed out. He must have demonstrated some of those tendencies in the locker room and that's why TT dumped him.

Walker can be chalked up to a character bust - unless a guy is a flaming idiot like Johnny Manziel, it's tough to get a read on where a guy's head is, and what kind of locker room presence he is going to be.

[Patler]

I hated the Rodgers pick b/c I thought we were close enough to a title to make a push; but as we've come to learn about TT, he never makes a push. We still had Brett Favre, and I wanted to fill holes. Not much different than now... with Rodgers now only a few years away from hanging them up.

And if you'll remember, Rodgers wasn't Rodgers when we drafted him - he reinvented himself, changed his delivery, and went from having a hitch in his delivery to having one of the quickest releases in the league. Made him a completely different QB.

As for the quotes about Hawk, they misrepresent my take on him b/c I didn't want him. I wanted Hgata or Davis. I only signed off on Hawk after convincing myself that he wouldn't be a bust. As for saying that he would be a starter on day 1?? Well, duh...




And when it comes to the Walker trade - in terms of talent, yeah I hated that trade. Walker was a mega-talented WR, but of course how could we know he was also a psychopath??

One of the most important things in evaluating these players is their character and what is going on inside their head. We as armchair GMs can't possibly see that, so we have no way of knowing. Walker had something go wrong in his head... b/c that guy flamed out. He must have demonstrated some of those tendencies in the locker room and that's why TT dumped him.

Walker can be chalked up to a character bust - unless a guy is a flaming idiot like Johnny Manziel, it's tough to get a read on where a guy's head is, and what kind of locker room presence he is going to be.

Your comment I quoted about Rodgers not leading us to a Super Bowl wasn't when Rodgers was drafted, it was after Brohm was drafted, after Favre retired, making Rodgers the starter. This was long after his generally weak rookie season. It was after we watched the subsequent preseasons that were good, and after he played a very good game against Dallas. It was after some reporters in training camp the year before suggested that Rodgers looked better than Favre. You were backing Brohm who hadn't even set foot on an NFL field yet over Rodgers who we had watched for 3 years by then. That's fine. A lot of people really liked Brohm. I figured he would be an asset worth something in a few years. I never expected Brohm would fail completely. I liked the pick of Brohm just because it gave them two opportunities to find a replacement for Favre.

As for Walker, his odd statements and awkward holdout the year before probably sealed his fate.

[wist43]

Your comment I quoted about Rodgers not leading us to a Super Bowl wasn't when Rodgers was drafted, it was after Brohm was drafted, after Favre retired, making Rodgers the starter. This was long after his generally weak rookie season. It was after we watched the subsequent preseasons that were good, and after he played a very good game against Dallas. It was after some reporters in training camp the year before suggested that Rodgers looked better than Favre. You were backing Brohm who hadn't even set foot on an NFL field yet over Rodgers who we had watched for 3 years by then. That's fine. A lot of people really liked Brohm. I figured he would be an asset worth something in a few years. I never expected Brohm would fail completely. I liked the pick of Brohm just because it gave them two opportunities to find a replacement for Favre.

As for Walker, his odd statements and awkward holdout the year before probably sealed his fate.

I think I said that Patler said that Rodgers had three nipples... can you do some digging and find out if, in fact, Rodgers does have three nipples??

Thanks for all your hard work Patler.

[mraynrand]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

[wist43]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

Even if I shot 50%, that would still be 50% better than you and Patler put together.

[Upnorth]

And 17% better than Shaq.

Re our cb vrs ILB drafting in 2015 says to me that TT (accurately) saw that ILB could be fixed to some degree by our existing roster where as DB had some hooles appearing last off season and that we were loosing another member this off season. Worst case scenario HaHa and CM could take care of ILB, with out Randle and Rollins where would our dB situation be?
One last point, does the Montgomery pick imply to you that TT saw wr as more important than ILB last year? If so good prognostication.

[Pugger]

I still think hawk was a decent player. I expected more out of the 5th pick, but to play for 9 years isn't bad. It definitely could be worse.

A lot of folks hated Hawk because he wasn't the second coming of Brian Urlacher.

[George Cumby]

We are discussing AJ Hawk. AJ Hawk. A. J. Hawk.

Dear God we must be bored.

Good thing we don't all live on a desert island together or we'd be eating each other's young.

[Patler]

Even if I shot 50%, that would still be 50% better than you and Patler put together.

Cranky this morning?

I have always claimed that I have opinions about which I am happy to argue. I have also acknowledged that I have no special knowledge or expertise about it, so am likely wrong a good deal of the time. However, I don't let that stop me from having opinions about most things Packer related.

[Patler]

We are discussing AJ Hawk. AJ Hawk. A. J. Hawk.

Dear God we must be bored.

Good thing we don't all live on a desert island together or we'd be eating each other's young.

Speaking of AJ Hawk, I saw that The Bricklayer Ferguson, who the Jets drafted just before GB took Hawk, announced his retirement. Some draft forecasts had GB taking him.

[Patler]

Wist,

We all have changing opinions about players. I almost have myself convinced that I never liked Atlas Herron.

[George Cumby]

I saw that about DF. He missed one play in ten years and that a trick play. Guy was a hoss. And one of the few out of the first round that year who was worthy of their draft position.

[George Cumby]

Wist,

We all have changing opinions about players. I almost have myself convinced that I never liked Atlas Herron.

Well, you didn't like that guy, but you DID like Atlas Herrion.

[woodbuck27]

Everyone knows that TT always picks BPA.

[Patler]

I saw that about DF. He missed one play in ten years and that a trick play. Guy was a hoss. And one of the few out of the first round that year who was worthy of their draft position.

The report was that the Jets asked him to take a pay cut, and he decided to retire instead because he felt his performance was slipping.

[esoxx]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

That was an utter ass pounding :lol:

[wist43]

Wist,

We all have changing opinions about players. I almost have myself convinced that I never liked Atlas Herron.

Of course our opinions about players change - which is why your attacks wrt Hawk are a misrepresentation.

I wanted Hawk to be good, but figured he'd be average. I didn't want him at #5, but acquiesced b/c I figured he wouldn't be a complete bust.

If you went back and took an honest look, something I know you have no interest in, you'd see that is how my view of Hawk evolved.

Mud slinging and eye poking is more fun than being honest though - I'll agree with you there ;)

[wist43]

That was an utter ass pounding :lol:

Don't look at me... ayn is the one who is gay.

God (sorry for the use of the banned word) bless Amerika.

[wist43]

Everyone knows that TT always picks BPA.

Again woody... is Randall better than any or all of those ILB's I listed?? No, he is not.

So while we have another ankle biting, soft, soft, soft DB who can't tackle - we still (how many years in a row now) have a gapping hole in the middle of our defense.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if TT didn't take an ILB at all in this draft. Don't think saying this should be controversial in any way.

[mraynrand]

^^^. If this were the mid 70's that would be a great post.

[mraynrand]

Dear God we must be bored.

Stop complaining and write some poetry

[mraynrand]

Don't look at me... ayn is the one who is gay.


Thanks for noticing big fella

[Patler]

Of course our opinions about players change - which is why your attacks wrt Hawk are a misrepresentation.

I wanted Hawk to be good, but figured he'd be average. I didn't want him at #5, but acquiesced b/c I figured he wouldn't be a complete bust.

If you went back and took an honest look, something I know you have no interest in, you'd see that is how my view of Hawk evolved.

Mud slinging and eye poking is more fun than being honest though - I'll agree with you there ;)

What mud slinging? You claimed to have never liked Hawk. My impression was different from your postings at the time.
"In particular, I like Hawk and Hodge quite a bit".

Pardon me. I completely forgot that you tend to acquiesce so often. You typically don't like to be controversial.

[George Cumby]

There once was a man named Wist,
Said Rand was of limp wrist,
Claimed he didn't like Hawk,
At this Patler did balk,
His dogmatism does persist.

[hoosier]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

The big difference is between those who know how to laugh at themselves and those who do not. .

[esoxx]

There once was a man from Nantucket...

[wist43]

What mud slinging? You claimed to have never liked Hawk. My impression was different from your postings at the time.
"In particular, I like Hawk and Hodge quite a bit".

Pardon me. I completely forgot that you tend to acquiesce so often. You typically don't like to be controversial.

I liked Hawk about 8% of the time - how's that for a qualification??

Here's some homework for you, since you and everyone else it seems like to crawl up my ass... it should be enjoyable work - go back and find the 92% of posts in which I tear Hawk down ;)

[wist43]

Man, is it hard to find posts from 10 years ago... I commend all of y'alls dedication to eye poking.


I'm not a big Hawk fan, but as I said in another thread - the guys who we think belong in the rotation, but seemingly played like shit last year, have to be given a pass for circumstances beyond their control, i.e. the mess that was Green Bay's front seven in positions 6 thru 13.

Assume Raji, Pickett, Matthews, Bishop, and Hawk are players - who else contributed anything?? Not only could the Packers not field 7 NFL calibur starters, they got no benefit from any rotation, nor any boost from sub packages. Walden, Wynn, Wilson, Neal, Jones, Francios, and Zombo - combined!!! contributed nothing.

Hence TT's reaction in the 2012 draft.

Whether Hawk hangs on to a starting gig or not is irrelevent; what matters is that whoever is manning that starting spot is making plays. The days of slow reads, false steps, missed tackles, and no impact plays have to come to an end.


We definitely need upgrades at both ILB positions, but of course 1265 doesn't agree.

I reluctantly signed off on the Hawk pick b/c I figured he at least wouldn't be a bust, but he's underperformed even what I expected. Most Packerrats expected he'd be a probowler, but I just didn't see it. He had great stats in college, but when I watched him in college he didn't look dynamic at all. He garbaged into sacks, and he looked average in every way to me - he's proven to be just that as a pro.

I wanted Vernon Davis or Ngata in that draft as I remember, and both have been much better than Hawk. Hawk hasn't been a bust per se, but you need to get more out of a #5 pick. Hopefully both he and Brad Jones will be gone next year, and we can start over at ILB.


2005 - The one guy I remember wanting was Justin Tuck. Liked Odell Thurman, with the caveat that he might be undraftable b/c of character.

Didn't like the Rodgers pick at all b/c I wanted defensive help to make one last push toward a SB while we still had Favre. The odds that Rodgers would become the best QB in the league were long, and with more defense we might have been able to get 1 SB with Favre.

2006 - Wanted Davis or Ngata.

2009 - Wanted Raji, was okay with Matthews. TJ Lang is an average starter, but he's in the lineup.

2010 - No complaints with this draft.

2011 - Hated the Sherrod pick. Our defense needed a lot of help, and TT all but ignored it. Setting an NFL record for passing yds allowed futility led to The Great Panic of 2012, i.e. TT all-defense 2012 draft.

2012 - TT's panic draft. We'll see how it works out. I like a lot of the players, but Capers has breathed in too much hair spraypaint and is perfectly capable of making a mess it.

2013 - TT needs another 'panic draft'. This time focused on both lines and LB's.


The run defense sucked last night not because of Hawk, but in addition to Hawk.

HHC-D too-often looked like a rookie safety still needing to learn how to tackle NFL running backs in the open (which, of course, he is).
The other DBs also had their embarrassing moments as well.
LBs other than Hawk were no where to be seen near the line of scrimmage, and when seen they were carried for 2-5 yards before getting Ingram down.
The D-line was not stacking things up, or being disruptive to blocking patterns. Either would have helped.

Hawk may have been awful in run D last night, but so was everyone else at one time or another.

How could you say such disrespectful things about our vaunted defense??

This could go on forever ;)

[Patler]

I liked Hawk about 8% of the time - how's that for a qualification??

Here's some homework for you, since you and everyone else it seems like to crawl up my ass... it should be enjoyable work - go back and find the 92% of posts in which I tear Hawk down ;)

Nah. I remembered a couple things you had said, searched words and terms, found them and was done Probably spent no more than five minutes finding them. I don't care enough about your remarks to spend anymore time than that on it. That should be apparent from how infrequently I reply to your rants.

[Fritz]

Of course our opinions about players change - which is why your attacks wrt Hawk are a misrepresentation.

I wanted Hawk to be good, but figured he'd be average. I didn't want him at #5, but acquiesced b/c I figured he wouldn't be a complete bust.

If you went back and took an honest look, something I know you have no interest in, you'd see that is how my view of Hawk evolved.

Mud slinging and eye poking is more fun than being honest though - I'll agree with you there ;)


Patler's "attack" consisted of copying and pasting your own words about Hawk and then Rodgers. Your response was that you really didn't mean those words the way they sounded. Later, your response was to attack Patler about how poor his player evaluation skills were, then to drop some name-calling on Ayn.


You sound like a politician, dude.

[Patler]

Man, is it hard to find posts from 10 years ago... I commend all of y'alls dedication to eye poking.

(Three quotes by Wist43 of himself not included)



Not sure what you thought the quotes you added from yourself were supposed to prove. The first refers to the draft of 2012 in the past, The second refers to Brad Jones as a starter at ILB, so also sometime during or after 2012. The third refers to the 2012 draft in the past, and 2013 as coming. Hawk was drafted in 2006. So, after watching him play for seven years, you decided Hawk wasn't a great starter.

My quotes of you about Hawk were from 2006, right after he was drafted, at which time you seemed to like him. The fact that seven years later you said you never liked him doesn't mean much in view of your contemporaneous statements from when he was drafted.

[Fritz]

Speaking of the original thread topic, I am glad Nate Palmer is gone. He added nothing.

I expect an ILB will be drafted, though probably not as high as we might wish. Then TT will maybe draft another in the seventh, or more likely just sign a couple UDFA's.

But I'm glad Palmer is gone. Hope he saved some of his money and has a good life. Seemed like a decent enough guy.

[wist43]

Not sure what you thought the quotes you added from yourself were supposed to prove. The first refers to the draft of 2012 in the past, The second refers to Brad Jones as a starter at ILB, so also sometime during or after 2012. The third refers to the 2012 draft in the past, and 2013 as coming. Hawk was drafted in 2006. So, after watching him play for seven years, you decided Hawk wasn't a great starter.

My quotes of you about Hawk were from 2006, right after he was drafted, at which time you seemed to like him. The fact that seven years later you said you never liked him doesn't mean much in view of your contemporaneous statements from when he was drafted.

Now you're calling me a liar?? Seriously, WTF is with you Patler?? How in the fuck did I get sucked into this with you??

Couldn't find any quotes from 2006 - you seem to be better at finding old threads than I am. When I did a search, I didn't even come up with the link you first threw out there, so I have no idea how to find my quotes about that draft.

I know where I stood on Hawk, and I fought with all of you pinheads for quite a while b/c you all wanted him - while I wanted Ngata or Davis (of those 3, Hawk was the worst). If I had any tech skills at all - which I don't, lol - I'd be able to find the threads. As it is, it isn't worth anymore effort, so I'm done with you.

Love ya ;)

[wist43]

Speaking of the original thread topic, I am glad Nate Palmer is gone. He added nothing.

I expect an ILB will be drafted, though probably not as high as we might wish. Then TT will maybe draft another in the seventh, or more likely just sign a couple UDFA's.

But I'm glad Palmer is gone. Hope he saved some of his money and has a good life. Seemed like a decent enough guy.

Why?? Why would you expect that TT will draft an ILB??

TT is just as likely to draft all offensive players, and spit on the defense - like he did in 2011. We were in desperate need of defense in 2011, and TT didn't lift a finger - he simply spit on that side of the ball, and fielded one of the worst defenses in league history.

TT is just as likely to draft 6 WR's, 2 RB's, and QB... and then prattle on endlessly about "quality football players", and "... that's the way our board fell".

Here's the 2011 draft - at a time when anyone with eyes could see the defense was going to fall off mightily. 5 of the first 6 picks were offense.

Derrick Sherrod, OT, (of course, a complete bust)
Randall Cobb, WR, (good value)
Alex Green, RB, (I liked him coming out, but he was a bust too)
Devon House (injuries, didn't get anything out of him)
DJ Williams, TE, (bad pick)
Caleb Schlauderaff, OL, (terrible pick)
DJ Williams, LB, (cup of coffee, bartending now)
Ricky Elmore, DE/LB, (terrible pick)
Ryan Taylor, TE, (why bother even making the pick?)
Lawrence Guy, DE, (nothing)

That's one hell of a terrible draft - and with it of course, an NFL record for pass defense futility. I don't think the stats, horrid as they were, can begin to quantify how bad that defense was.

TT will draft according to his board, and if we're lucky his board might intersect with need... that's just the way it is with TT.

[smuggler]

House played okay when he was on the field for us, providing depth and now a comp pick. DJ Smith (ILB) played pretty darn well before that fat fuck Texans tackle dove into the side of his knee and ended his career. Schlaudershit was traded for a draft pick, after we realized he sucked. Taylor helped on special teams. Guy is still playing in the NFL after getting poached from our practice squad. Sherry smelled bad before his devastating leg injury, sure, but it was pretty catastrophic and removed all doubt. Yes, that draft was bad, but not quite as terrible when you examine it more closely.

[pbmax]

Given the focus that the defense has gotten the last two drafts +, I would be OK with an offensive focus if it sifts out that way.

[mraynrand]

I know where I stood on Hawk, and I fought with all of you pinheads for quite a while b/c you all wanted him - while I wanted Ngata or Davis (of those 3, Hawk was the worst). If I had any tech skills at all - which I don't, lol - I'd be able to find the threads. As it is, it isn't worth anymore effort, so I'm done with you.

Your memory is as bad as your temper! ;-)

There were many, myself included, who wanted Davis. TT drafted himself. Bob McGinn made a strong case for trading down and getting Ngata. I liked the idea, but I wanted a difference-maker; didn't think Ngata would be that guy. Some liked that move. I'm not certain if you were one of them....

[mraynrand]

It wouldn't bother me in the least if TT didn't draft an ILB. I'd much prefer a 'tweener' DB(safety) who is a little bigger and maybe a hair slower, but can tackle and maybe shed a block or two. Because: passing league.

[pbmax]

It wouldn't bother me in the least if TT didn't draft an ILB. I'd much prefer a 'tweener' DB(safety) who is a little bigger and maybe a hair slower, but can tackle and maybe shed a block or two. Because: passing league.

unsound

[Patler]

House played okay when he was on the field for us, providing depth and now a comp pick. DJ Smith (ILB) played pretty darn well before that fat fuck Texans tackle dove into the side of his knee and ended his career. Schlaudershit was traded for a draft pick, after we realized he sucked. Taylor helped on special teams. Guy is still playing in the NFL after getting poached from our practice squad. Sherry smelled bad before his devastating leg injury, sure, but it was pretty catastrophic and removed all doubt. Yes, that draft was bad, but not quite as terrible when you examine it more closely.

Yup. They drafted House at #131, and they received compensatory picks at #131 & #137 for losing House and Williams.

[George Cumby]

Amazing that Guy is still playing.

[Patler]

Now you're calling me a liar?? Seriously, WTF is with you Patler?? How in the fuck did I get sucked into this with you??



Nope. Didn't call you a liar at all. Just wondered about the purpose of the quotes you provided.
Why are you so hostile/angry about this?

This is really very simple. You made a statement now about never liking Hawk. That seemed "off" to me, because I thought I remembered you feeling different about Hawk when he was drafted. I found the quotes that seemed to support my recollection, and posted them. Not a big deal.

[Patler]

As to the ILB situation, I am still interested in seeing more of Barrington. We got to see only about a half season from him in 2014. I'm not sure how much to expect from him. GB seemed to have some confidence in him, for whatever that is worth, in that after 2014 they dumped everyone who had been ahead of him at the start of 2014, Jones, Lattimore and Hawk.

[Fritz]

To my untrained eye, Barrington is another run-stopper - the thumper, maybe, we all want, but also not a guy who I think can cover a tight end or god forbid a running back.

[George Cumby]

I kind of thought Bradford had the makings of a two down thumper.

[wist43]

I kind of thought Bradford had the makings of a two down thumper.

We've got plenty of "thumpers", at a time when the game has changed into so much of passing league, that "thumpers" are akin to dinosaurs. They can be on the field about 30% of the time - max.

Conversely, at a time when having to man-up with thumpers to stop the run 12-15 years ago, we had undersized, or at least smallish playing, Nick Barnett in the middle. Barnett wasn't a very good player; but, I'd take an instinctive Barnett type today to give us some sideline to sideline speed and an every down backer that can cover receivers.

Ryan, Barrington, and Bradford are all 1.5 down LB's... the only every down backer we have on the roster is Matthews. I think moving him back outside is going to be bad for the defense overall - unless we fill his spot in the middle with a comparable player. To me, I think Matthews is better in the middle anyway.

[Joemailman]

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 13h13 hours ago
#Titans claimed LB Nate Palmer off waivers from the #Packers, according to NFL wire.

[Carolina_Packer]

It's interesting to me that a player can be drafted in the 6th round in 2013, developed enough to be in the rotation in the linebacker corp., somewhat because of injury (Barrington), and somewhat because of lack of positional strength; plays OK at times, and then falls off a cliff. I guess the Packers had seen enough, but does it really cost you that much to keep him through training camp and see if the talent that you brought in during and after the draft this year could push him off the roster, instead of just dumping him now? Look, he's not Patrick Willis, or even Eric Kendricks, but how could he have fallen out of favor so much that they didn't even want him on the 90-man roster after having a decent amount of playing time?

[mraynrand]

Look, he's not Patrick Willis, or even Eric Kendricks, but how could he have fallen out of favor so much that they didn't even want him on the 90-man roster after having a decent amount of playing time?

He was simply resistible.

[SkinBasket]

TT is just as likely to draft all offensive players, and spit on the defense - like he did in 2011.

That's a lot of spit. Would he round them all up and do it like from a podium, or would he find each of them individually?

[George Cumby]

He was simply resistible.

No, he wasn't Packers Kinda' People.

[George Cumby]

That's a lot of spit. Would he round them all up and do it like from a podium, or would he find each of them individually?

So long as it's spit and not some other bodily fluid, I'm ok with it.

[pbmax]

This is kind of an odd one. I almost hope they aren't counting on Bradford to make the Year 3 leap and needed the money, cap space or clothing allowance back.

[SkinBasket]

I don't think it's that odd. I know some people liked Palmer, but I could never fathom why. He was just another in a long line of one (sometimes half) dimensional linebackers with limited potential to ever become more than a guy running in a direction hoping to hit something or someone. Maybe I was missing something and they just cut him because he's a dick.

[mraynrand]

Maybe I was missing something and they just cut him because he's a dick.

I will always enjoy the memory of his sack

[SkinBasket]

I will always enjoy the memory of his sack

If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Patler]

It's interesting to me that a player can be drafted in the 6th round in 2013, developed enough to be in the rotation in the linebacker corp., somewhat because of injury (Barrington), and somewhat because of lack of positional strength; plays OK at times, and then falls off a cliff. I guess the Packers had seen enough, but does it really cost you that much to keep him through training camp and see if the talent that you brought in during and after the draft this year could push him off the roster, instead of just dumping him now? Look, he's not Patrick Willis, or even Eric Kendricks, but how could he have fallen out of favor so much that they didn't even want him on the 90-man roster after having a decent amount of playing time?

On the surface it seems they might have wanted to at least bring him to camp. Then again, if as a starter he is clearly behind Barrington and Ryan and however much of Matthews is at ILB, and probably behind Thomas for a roster position, he is very deep on the depth chart. If they think Bradford has improved, it might be his time for an opportunity. They generally bring in a handful of rookie LBs anyway, so it might be time to move on and look at other players.

Similar to letting Lattimore leave last year. He had started a number of games in 2014 and was a primary guy on special teams. Barrington leapfrogged him during the year, like Ryan did this year with Palmer. The Packers apparently had seen enough of Lattimore, and even with releasing Hawk and Jones, they made no effort to resign Lattimore, who went to the Jets on a one year contract for $825,000.

[Upnorth]

Why?? Why would you expect that TT will draft an ILB??

TT is just as likely to draft all offensive players, and spit on the defense - like he did in 2011. We were in desperate need of defense in 2011, and TT didn't lift a finger - he simply spit on that side of the ball, and fielded one of the worst defenses in league history.

TT is just as likely to draft 6 WR's, 2 RB's, and QB... and then prattle on endlessly about "quality football players", and "... that's the way our board fell".

Here's the 2011 draft - at a time when anyone with eyes could see the defense was going to fall off mightily. 5 of the first 6 picks were offense.

Derrick Sherrod, OT, (of course, a complete bust)
Randall Cobb, WR, (good value)
Alex Green, RB, (I liked him coming out, but he was a bust too)
Devon House (injuries, didn't get anything out of him)
DJ Williams, TE, (bad pick)
Caleb Schlauderaff, OL, (terrible pick)
DJ Williams, LB, (cup of coffee, bartending now)
Ricky Elmore, DE/LB, (terrible pick)
Ryan Taylor, TE, (why bother even making the pick?)
Lawrence Guy, DE, (nothing)

That's one hell of a terrible draft - and with it of course, an NFL record for pass defense futility. I don't think the stats, horrid as they were, can begin to quantify how bad that defense was.

TT will draft according to his board, and if we're lucky his board might intersect with need... that's just the way it is with TT.

In 2010 we were 2nd best in points allowed and 5th best in yards allowed. On offense we were 10th in points and 9th in yards gained. both sides we were strong, but we were fairly dominant on defense. To the best of my knowledge no one, and I mean no professional, thought the d was going to drop off. Some of the pre 2010 playoff run analysts were saying our d was the unspoken key to our sucsess, and with both raji and mathews being young studs, and woodson and collins being top level players, Im okay with ignoring the d that draft. Not saying we had to, but if we had better options in those positions then go for it.
2015 we were 15th in scoring on offence and 12th in scoring on defence. (These stats were from profootball reference so blame them if there is an error.)
Last draft we addressed the db's, and have picked up a decent TE so our only needs are ILB and OL. I would also like to see us get a nose tackle and a wr, but not at the cost of ILB.

[esoxx]

I know some people liked Palmer

He was Kevin Greene's boy.

[wist43]

That's a lot of spit. Would he round them all up and do it like from a podium, or would he find each of them individually?

The point being - Ted drafts the player he has rated highest on his board, and depends on filling holes through their development program.

Nothing wrong with that, except that every year there are big enough holes on the roster that it keeps us from getting over the top. Homers always point back to 2010, but case in point with respect to that season - some of the key contributors to that SB win were signed as FA's, most notably Woodson, Pickett, and Howard Green.

Was surprised that TT bothered to sign Cook - we'll see if he lifts a finger to fill the ILB hole(s). My guess is that he thinks Ryan and Barrington are good enough.

[George Cumby]

He was Kevin Greene's boy.

His special boy.

[Fritz]

The point being - Ted drafts the player he has rated highest on his board, and depends on filling holes through their development program.

Nothing wrong with that, except that every year there are big enough holes on the roster that it keeps us from getting over the top. Homers always point back to 2010, but case in point with respect to that season - some of the key contributors to that SB win were signed as FA's, most notably Woodson, Pickett, and Howard Green.

Was surprised that TT bothered to sign Cook - we'll see if he lifts a finger to fill the ILB hole(s). My guess is that he thinks Ryan and Barrington are good enough.

It was quite fortunate that his best player available two years ago was Ha Ha Clinton Dix - a position of need, and that his best players available last year in rounds one and two filled the needs left by House and Tramontana both leaving.

Sure, he does BPA - but he's not unaware of need, nor does he simply ignore it. It's a mix.

[mraynrand]

Anyone who really believes any team does BPA is delusional.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Anyone who really believes any team does BPA is delusional.

Every team seems to magically get their top overall guy on the board who just happens to fill one of their biggest needs.

[MadScientist]

BPA is really best player for the team. Calculated based off of some magical combination of player ability and team need. You don't always grab the best overall player left, and you don't always fill your most glaring need. Trying to do one or the other makes you the Browns.

[pbmax]

I don't think it's that odd. I know some people liked Palmer, but I could never fathom why. He was just another in a long line of one (sometimes half) dimensional linebackers with limited potential to ever become more than a guy running in a direction hoping to hit something or someone. Maybe I was missing something and they just cut him because he's a dick.

Talent wise, its not very notable. Timing wise, it seems a bit strange. They seem to be in fine shape to sign 20 UDFAs and have the cap room for their draft picks.

Mostly curious about what precipitated it.

[pbmax]

Anyone who really believes any team does BPA is delusional.

Not in first round. Harder to move around (and more expensive) in first. But I might buy it Rounds 2 and 3. Pretty good mix there between need picks and why picks.

[mraynrand]

Not in first round. Harder to move around (and more expensive) in first. But I might buy it Rounds 2 and 3. Pretty good mix there between need picks and why picks.

I only see about 5 picks that were 'value' or depth. Even so, most still probably could be argued to be BPA. However, most picks filled a typically desperate need:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/rounds/_/year/2015

[SkinBasket]

Nothing wrong with that, except that every year there are big enough holes on the roster that it keeps us from getting over the top.

31 other teams have the same problem every year. Sometimes 32, but they overcome it through coaching. It's still too early to beat on Ted for a draft that hasn't happened yet, so is there a player out there who would satisfy your perceived need at the position?