Thompson vs. Belichick

[pbmax]

I will grant the BB has the better video crew. But that is it.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-patriots-take-different-approaches-to-filling-out-rosters-b99704204z1-375347891.html

I think there is one exaggeration in this article because as we know, Thompson doesn't sign anyone from another team except the couple we will always remember. And the one's that sportswriters always manage to forget.


Among those he has acquired are veterans Terrance Knighton, Shea McClellin, Chris Long, Donald Brown and Nate Washington. In addition, he made trades that netted him former Chicago tight end Martellus Bennett and former Arizona guard Jonathan Cooper.

His off-season work stands in stark contrast to Thompson's, whose only off-season signing that didn't involve one of his own was street free-agent tight end Jared Cook. The Patriots have already filled 74 of their spots on the 90-man off-season roster compared with the Packers' 62.

Cooper is an odd duck in this list as he was a talent and salary dump throw-in. Still, he is taking a roster spot.

[mraynrand]

I'll be very interested to see if BB8 can do anything with Shea Mcclellan. He seemed so misused in Chicago, it's hard to know if he has any talent. Kindof a classic tweeter with no great exploitable strengths. Wonder if they can make a reclamation project out of him like Jabaal Sheard.

[pbmax]

I'll be very interested to see if BB8 can do anything with Shea Mcclellan. He seemed so misused in Chicago, it's hard to know if he has any talent. Kindof a classic tweeter with no great exploitable strengths. Wonder if they can make a reclamation project out of him like Jabaal Sheard.

The article has an exec that says he gets guys who can do one thing well and then takes advantage of that and minimizing the weaknesses. It will be intriguing to see what they think his strength is.

[Bretsky]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the notion that BB constantly is willing to bring in end of their career type vets and often guys out of favor while TT rarely does. NFL network and the Packers own cover guys point this out constantly. Hoody places value on guys coming at the end of their careers and he'll bump the young guys, perhaps sacrificing a guy that might turn out, for them. He'll take much bigger chances. I assume the articile points this out. I'm too tired to read it right now but if that is the jist every NFL guy on NFL network as well as all the writers that cover GB point out the same thing. Right or wrong, let's call a spade a spade. TT has his own version of draft and develop and it's more extreme that most if not all of the GM's he competes against. And to be honest overall it has worked for him because the playoffs are our norm.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the notion that BB constantly is willing to bring in end of their career type vets and often guys out of favor while TT rarely does. NFL network and the Packers own cover guys point this out constantly. Hoody places value on guys coming at the end of their careers and he'll bump the young guys, perhaps sacrificing a guy that might turn out, for them. He'll take much bigger chances. I assume the articile points this out. I'm too tired to read it right now but if that is the jist every NFL guy on NFL network as well as all the writers that cover GB point out the same thing. Right or wrong, let's call a spade a spade. TT has his own version of draft and develop and it's more extreme that most if not all of the GM's he competes against. And to be honest overall it has worked for him because the playoffs are our norm.Great post!
Belicheck is comfortable thinking out of the box and living with the risk it entails:

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- The morning after a heartbreaking loss to the Colts, coach Bill Belichick revisited his risky decision to go for it on fourth down while also detailing the Patriots' uncharacteristic struggles in burning valuable timeouts.

Belichick repeated what he said Sunday night, saying that he felt the decision to go for it on fourth-and-2 from the Patriots' 28-yard line, with 2:08 remaining, gave the team the best chance to win.http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/news/story?id=4660313

[texaspackerbacker]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

[pbmax]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

A counterfactual is only useful if it tells you something you did not know.



GM QB Team
John Schneider Russell Wilson Seahawks
Kevin Colbert Rothliesberger Steelers
Bill Parcells Tony Romo Cowboys
Belichick Tom Brady Patriots
Dave Gettleman Cam Newton Panthers
Pollen Manning Colts
Polian Collins Panthers
Polian Kelly Bills
Jerry Reese Manning Giants
Newsome Flacco Ravens

[Upnorth]

A counterfactual is only useful if it tells you something you did not know.



GM QB Team
John Schneider Russell Wilson Seahawks
Kevin Colbert Rothliesberger Steelers
Bill Parcells Tony Romo Cowboys
Belichick Tom Brady Patriots
Dave Gettleman Cam Newton Panthers
Pollen Manning Colts
Polian Collins Panthers
Polian Kelly Bills
Jerry Reese Manning Giants
Newsome Flacco Ravens


This made me have a greater appreciation for John Dorsey in KC. Also holy crap Polian!

[Patler]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

Would Belichick be the same without Brady? Who was luckier getting their QB, the Packers or the Patriots?
Before having Brady as his starter, as a head coach, Belichick was 41-57 in six full seasons and the first two games of 2001; 5-13 with the Patriots.

You really have no way of knowing what might have happened if Rodgers hadn't been available in 2005. If TT didn't get Rodgers, might he have taken Cutler in 2006 instead of Hawk? Might Cutler have turned out better under the tutelage of MM and the chance to sit behind Favre for a few years? Might TT have traded up instead of down in 2008 and taken Flacco, with Favre hanging around for another 2 or 3 years??

[MadScientist]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

Top QB's make everybody in the organization look smarter (GM"s, coaches, scouts, etc). It takes a lot more to win consistently without one, but those people will then get dinged for not being able to draft and develop a good QB.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Might Cutler have turned out better under the tutelage of MM and the chance to sit behind Favre for a few years?:laugh:

[Patler]

:laugh:

Ya, I meant to qualify that with a :shock: or a :roll: or even a :whaa:

[Maxie the Taxi]

^^^LOL

[Upnorth]

So Patler screwed up yet again. Typical.

[Patler]

So Patler screwed up yet again. Typical.

:thank: :thank: :thank:

[woodbuck27]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

100%...Bang On ! Exactly... and please ...hahahaa..I was going to ask:

Can't we agree on this as factual as it is. It just simply is this:

Bill Belichick is light years superior to Ted Thompson and any other NFL man when it comes to 'how to get to the Super Bowl and hopefully win'.

Bill Belichick is highly respected as the greatest mind and all about winning in the NFL. His head is into it 24-7 in terms of what he might do to improve his teams roster. His ability to game plan and manage ..his half time adjustment ability and success...are all 5* STAR qualities.

You cannot NOT have courage and the nuts to be anywhere even close to the respect and accorded praise that Bill Belichick is awarded by NFL analysts.

Ted Thompson just doesn't have the go get it attitude Packer fans might expect. We need a GM that studies BB and at least tries to emulate all his best qualities.

I'm no longer disappointed in Ted Thompson. I've grown to expect little more growth from him. Soon he'll be gone and I can have some real hope the Green Bay Packers may enter an Era of more REAL Super Bowl hope for Packer Nation.

[mraynrand]

A counterfactual is only useful if it tells you something you did not know.



GM QB Team
John Schneider Russell Wilson Seahawks
Kevin Colbert Rothliesberger Steelers
Bill Parcells Tony Romo Cowboys
Belichick Tom Brady Patriots
Dave Gettleman Cam Newton Panthers
Pollen Manning Colts
Polian Collins Panthers
Polian Kelly Bills
Jerry Reese Manning Giants
Newsome Flacco Ravens


This explains the allergic reaction to Manning

[mraynrand]

I'm no longer disappointed in Ted Thompson. I've grown to expect little more growth from him. Soon he'll be gone and I can have some real hope the Green Bay Packers may enter an Era of more REAL Super Bowl hope for Packer Nation.

I just don't know what's wrong with the Packers that they can't land the greatest GM/Coach in modern NFL history. Always sloppy seconds with this organization.

[pbmax]

I just don't know what's wrong with the Packers that they can't land the greatest GM/Coach in modern NFL history. Always sloppy seconds with this organization.

Just wait until the next GM is worse than Thompson.

Fire Murphy!

[wist43]

I've said it many times in several forums, if Thompson hadn't hit it big getting Aaron Rodgers, his reputation and Packer fortunes in general would be EXTREMELY different. Call it luck or call it skill in drafting Rodgers, but without that, we'd be in pretty bad shape given Ted's overall way of doing things.

When Rodgers went down a few years ago, we went 2-5-1. That pretty much sums up our overall roster minus the most important player.

Even though I think the defense has improved the past few years, it has been an achilles heel more often than not since dunderdummy has been here. Add to that the ZBS, soft philosophy underpinning the running game, and it makes it very difficult for this team to be successful, or even average, without a top-flight QB.

We simply aren't built to take over games in the trenches, consistently shut down another teams offense, or consistently run the ball to take pressure off our QB. If our QB goes down, we're pretty much done.

Homers would say that is pretty much the case with every team, but I would argue it is much more pronounced with the Packers than any other team. The Broncos won last year's SB essentially without even having a starting caliber QB on their roster. Put Manning and his noodle arm on the Packers, and we probably go 5-11.

[Patler]

When Rodgers went down a few years ago, we went 2-5-1. That pretty much sums up our overall roster minus the most important player.


Two things I wonder:

1. Would things have been as bad if Seneca Wallace hadn't gone down, too? Not that he was great, but at least he was experienced.
2. Would things be as bad with Hundley now as the back-up?

[mraynrand]

When Rodgers went down a few years ago, we went 2-5-1. That pretty much sums up our overall roster minus the most important player.

Did the Colts win 1 or 2 without Manning?

Patsies did better but missed playoffs without Brady

Steelers without Rapeburger - not so hot

Great QBs sort of have a positive effect on their team.

It's great that TT hired a guy like Stubby who revived Favre's career and made Rodgers'

[Joemailman]

Two things I wonder:

1. Would things have been as bad if Seneca Wallace hadn't gone down, too? Not that he was great, but at least he was experienced.
2. Would things be as bad with Hundley now as the back-up?

The answer is likely no. A lot of people tend to forget the Packers went 2-5-1 with their 3rd and 4th quarterbacks, not their backup quarterback. Good teams can often be competitive with their backup QB, but not their 3rd. In 2014 Arizona won games with Stanton playing after Palmer got hurt. But when Stanton got hurt, they went 1-3, and the win was a 12-6 score.

[wist43]

Two things I wonder:

1. Would things have been as bad if Seneca Wallace hadn't gone down, too? Not that he was great, but at least he was experienced.
2. Would things be as bad with Hundley now as the back-up?

My guess on 1 would be, yes... Wallace was a game manager at best; our offense, and indeed our entire team, is built around having an elite QB. Without an elite QB, we're a sub .500 team.

On #2?? Who knows... I like Hundley - we'll see. QB is almost impossible to project.

[Patler]

My guess on 1 would be, yes... Wallace was a game manager at best; our offense, and indeed our entire team, is built around having an elite QB. Without an elite QB, we're a sub .500 team.

On #2?? Who knows... I like Hundley - we'll see. QB is almost impossible to project.

I don't think Flynn was much different than Wallace, and over the years GB did fairly well with Flynn on the field. I think they could have done as well with Wallace, which may or may not have meant more W's in the games Tolzien played. Flynn was essentially 2-2-1 that year, and if he had played the whole game, the tie against MN might have been a W.

[mraynrand]

Without an elite QB, we're a sub .500 team.

like most teams with elite QBs. Some teams, built around their defense, have been able to win with average QBs, but even these teams mostly needed above average play from the QB to win championships. (e.g. 'recently,' Manning, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Grossman - almost, )

An elite QB covers a lot of flaws, creates a winning climate resulting in lower draft picks, and it's extremely rare to find a team with a backup for an elite QB able to win consistently.

[mraynrand]

But I'll say it again, when comparing TT to BB8, you're comparing him to a guy who is arguably the best football mind in the modern NFL and may go down in history as the greatest NFL coach/GM ever. Not bad company.

[texaspackerbacker]

Seneca Wallace stunk. We might have done a little better with a better back up - if they had gotten Tolzien prepared quicker for example, but my point was and is:

The Packer roster overall is substandard outside of Aaron Rodgers - pretty much everywhere. That would be what Ted is remembered for if not for Rodgers. I'm not all that enamored with Belichek either - that record without Brady says a lot about him.

[Patler]

But I'll say it again, when comparing TT to BB8, you're comparing him to a guy who is arguably the best football mind in the modern NFL and may go down in history as the greatest NFL coach/GM ever. Not bad company.

Even the potentially greatest NFL coach/GM ever won barely 40% of his games for 6+ seasons, until Tom Brady became his QB.

[mraynrand]

Even the potentially greatest NFL coach/GM ever won barely 40% of his games for 6+ seasons, until Tom Brady became his QB.

Sure and the sun warms the planet.

BB8 was also responsible for two other Super Bowl wins as an assistant, even stifling the high powered bills offense.

[wootah]

Sure and the sun warms the planet.

Take it to FYI.

[mraynrand]

Take it to FYI.

no, Romper Room

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?28486-What-s-the-weather-like-this-Winter-where-you-reside/page2

[mraynrand]

We simply aren't built to take over games in the trenches, consistently shut down another teams offense, or consistently run the ball to take pressure off our QB. If our QB goes down, we're pretty much done.

And yet, when healthy, the defense held the #1 offense in yards and #2 in scoring to 20 points with an anemic offense. You're an interesting guy Wist. You claim to be a rational man of science, but you frequently eschew facts and logic in your analysis and rely on mostly bald assertions and emotion. weird.

[pbmax]

When Rodgers went down a few years ago, we went 2-5-1. That pretty much sums up our overall roster minus the most important player.

Ah, a fair critique, though its not about the roster as a whole as much as its about one position. Thompson and McCarthy have played it very loose with backup QBs in a couple of instances. Dueling rookies one year (Brohm and Flynn) and Graham Harrell and BJ Coleman in another.

I think Hundley might be the best backup they have had since Rodgers if his rookie year is to be believed.

[mraynrand]

I think Hundley might be the best backup they have had since Rodgers if his rookie year is to be believed.

This is a subtle point. Rodgers was a pretty damn good backup, wasn't he (See: at Dallas, 2007)?

But, having Rodgers fall to the Packers at the end of round 1 was pure luck, whereas Brady falling to the sixth round was a pure, intentional, undistilled Belichick genius move. :)

[pbmax]

This is a subtle point. Rodgers was a pretty damn good backup, wasn't he (See: at Dallas, 2007)?

But, having Rodgers fall to the Packers at the end of round 1 was pure luck, whereas Brady falling to the sixth round was a pure, intentional, undistilled Belichick genius move. :)

Yep.

Titans/Rams trade about to give us another extreme version of the need for a QB but the danger of overpaying, just as the Redskins did. You do need to grab a good one no matter what or when, but you cannot sacrifice a draft for it. Unless that guy is great and an iron man, you will hurt the rest of the team too much.

And then its a spiral, you are drafting low but are now having a hard time supporting the QBs who are available to you.

[Patler]

Sure and the sun warms the planet.


That was my point. It was not meant as a criticism of BB. Criticizing TT from the slant of "where would he be without Rodgers?" is ridiculous for a number of reasons, including:

- We have no idea what he might have done to find a different QB, because all GMs know it is the most crucial position.
- We have no idea just how any alternative to Rodgers may have functioned in GB. Just consider Flynn in GB and everywhere else that he tried to play.
- He did have the insight to take Rodgers when 22 GM's before him, including several with more urgent QB needs, did not see what Rodgers could become.
- It is difficult, if not impossible for any team to win consistently in the NFL without a top QB. (See Belichick's record as a HC without Brady.)

[mraynrand]

That was my point. It was not meant as a criticism of BB. Criticizing TT from the slant of "where would he be without Rodgers?" is ridiculous for a number of reasons, including:

- We have no idea what he might have done to find a different QB, because all GMs know it is the most crucial position.
- We have no idea just how any alternative to Rodgers may have functioned in GB. Just consider Flynn in GB and everywhere else that he tried to play.
- He did have the insight to take Rodgers when 22 GM's before him, including several with more urgent QB needs, did not see what Rodgers could become.
- It is difficult, if not impossible for any team to win consistently in the NFL without a top QB. (See Belichick's record as a HC without Brady.)

good post. And the final line suggests an addendum:

- A great QB poses the chicken and egg question: Did the QB become great because of the Coaching/team environment or because of the individual's talent? (the correct answer I believe is 'both' are necessary)

[Striker]

Other things people forget about 2013:

-The Packers also lost Bulaga, Finley and Hayward for the season, and Cobb for most of it.
-Matthews was essentially playing with one hand.

[Patler]

Other things people forget about 2013:

-Matthews was essentially playing with one hand.

...for 7 games, and missed 5 games completely. Essentially, they had Matthews as Matthews for the first 4 games, and not much more.

[pbmax]

And they should have beaten the 49ers in that playoff game.

[Patler]

And they should have beaten the 49ers in that playoff game.

That brings up another question, has TT been let down more often by his head coach than Belichick the GM has been let down by his; or has MM been shortchanged more by his GM than Belichick the head coach has been by his GM?

[Patler]

And they should have beaten the 49ers in that playoff game.

That brings up other question:
Has TT been let down more often by his head coach than Belichick the GM has been let down by his?
Has MM been shortchanged more by his GM than Belichick the head coach has been by his GM?

Comparing TT to BB is almost impossible, because BB as coach makes up for a lot of his mistakes as GM.

[woodbuck27]

Just wait until the next GM is worse than Thompson.

Fire Murphy!

The topic of this thread appears to be RE: a comparison of Ted Thompson to Bill Belichick.

Would you swap a $100.00 for a $1000.00 ?

[pbmax]

The topic of this thread appears to be RE: a comparison of Ted Thompson to Bill Belichick.

Would you swap a $100.00 for a $1000.00 ?

Depends, do I need to cheat to keep the $1,000?

[woodbuck27]

Depends, do I need to cheat to keep the $1,000?

Ahh I call.....sour grapes.

[Bretsky]

That brings up another question, has TT been let down more often by his head coach than Belichick the GM has been let down by his; or has MM been shortchanged more by his GM than Belichick the head coach has been by his GM?


I think TT has let MM down more than MM has let TT down

Bellichek the GM has been terrible for Belliecheck the coach

[wist43]

I agree that TT has habitually let MM down - and that's my bitch about TT, there is never a "win now" approach.

I'm all for building thru the draft, but if you are a contender and very close to getting over the top, filling a hole here and there with a moderately priced veteran makes sense. Ted would argue that it might stunt the development of a younger player - but I would argue, are we are farm team for the development of players, or are we a professional organization out to win championships??

You need to develop players from within, but not at the expense of making a push for a championship.

[Bretsky]

I agree that TT has habitually let MM down - and that's my bitch about TT, there is never a "win now" approach.

I'm all for building thru the draft, but if you are a contender and very close to getting over the top, filling a hole here and there with a moderately priced veteran makes sense. Ted would argue that it might stunt the development of a younger player - but I would argue, are we are farm team for the development of players, or are we a professional organization out to win championships??

You need to develop players from within, but not at the expense of making a push for a championship.


agree

[Patler]

I'm all for building thru the draft, but if you are a contender and very close to getting over the top, filling a hole here and there with a moderately priced veteran makes sense.

You do realize that he did exactly that both in 2014 and again this off season, don't you?

[Patler]

I think TT has let MM down more than MM has let TT down


I disagree with that because the Packers playoff performances have not been good. It takes a good GM to get a team to the playoffs. It takes a good coaching staff to achieve success in the playoffs. When I look back at the Packer playoff failures as far back as the SB loss, I see performance issues not related to roster issues.

[Pugger]

I disagree with that because the Packers playoff performances have not been good. It takes a good GM to get a team to the playoffs. It takes a good coaching staff to achieve success in the playoffs. When I look back at the Packer playoff failures as far back as the SB loss, I see performance issues not related to roster issues.

Agreed. In 2014 Ted assembled arguably the best team in the league that had a massive brain fart at the end of the NFCC game in Seattle.

[pbmax]

I am on Thompson's side. he's not been perfect, but there are substantial areas McCarthy hasn't progressed in yet. To his credit, he is still changing things up.

I also wonder if Thompson's three year draft streak is a product of the analytics he talked about adding a couple of years back.

[Patler]

Agreed. In 2014 Ted assembled arguably the best team in the league that had a massive brain fart at the end of the NFCC game in Seattle.

Yup, and if they had won that game, how much would (should) the TT criticism have changed? What if they had subsequently won the SB? Who was most responsible for losing the Seattle game, the GM or the coaching staff?

[Upnorth]

Yup, and if they had won that game, how much would (should) the TT criticism have changed? What if they had subsequently won the SB? Who was most responsible for losing the Seattle game, the GM or the coaching staff?

Great point on analyzing playoff results. 2007, excellent roster, one of the best in the league. 2009, the defense collapsed in Arizona, but excellent roster. 2011, going into 2011 we had the 2nd best scoring defense but coaches failed to adjust to the way we were being attacked. 2012 no one spied Kap, 2014 covered by Patlers comment.

MM and Capers letting down TT imo. Your point has made me increase my opinion of TT.

[woodbuck27]

I agree that TT has habitually let MM down - and that's my bitch about TT, there is never a "win now" approach.

I'm all for building thru the draft, but if you are a contender and very close to getting over the top, filling a hole here and there with a moderately priced veteran makes sense. Ted would argue that it might stunt the development of a younger player - but I would argue, are we are farm team for the development of players, or are we a professional organization out to win championships??

You need to develop players from within, but not at the expense of making a push for a championship.

You nailed it.

Sadly...TT just doesn't get that.

[wist43]

You do realize that he did exactly that both in 2014 and again this off season, don't you?

No he didn't - we've had a hole at ILB for years; in 2011 we had one of the worst defenses in league history, and some of us saw it coming, yet TT did nothing. He started trying to address the mess the next year, but didn't sign any FA's to fill holes.

This year, we don't have a lot of holes - TE was one, and TT surprisingly addressed it, but ILB is still a colossal mess. If he doesn't fill it in the draft, what are the odds he lifts a finger in FA after the draft?? The answer is, the odds are not good he will do anything.

TT's MO is well established - and he is criticized every year for it. We won one SB in TT's 11 year reign, hallelujah... we're going to end up with 2 SB's in the span of 25+ years all the while having 2 HOF QB's. That doesn't add up for me - I want more, I want better.

[Pugger]

Yup, and if they had won that game, how much would (should) the TT criticism have changed? What if they had subsequently won the SB? Who was most responsible for losing the Seattle game, the GM or the coaching staff?

I believe it was the coaching staff and the players who were to blame for that tragedy.

[mraynrand]

I agree that TT has habitually let MM down - and that's my bitch about TT, there is never a "win now" approach.

It would be nice if, just once in a while, he'd move up into the first round and grab a difference maker.

[mraynrand]

No he didn't - we've had a hole at ILB for years; in 2011 we had one of the worst defenses in league history, and some of us saw it coming, yet TT did nothing.

You should hang out in Vegas, because pretty much no one I know predicted the Collins injury or the Raji slide.

[mraynrand]

You need to develop players from within, but not at the expense of making a push for a championship.

It would be nice if, just once in a while, TT would bring in a key veteran FA, like a stout interior lineman, or a cornerback who can play in the slot and even at LB or an OLB to complement Matthews. But not TT, because he is stuck in draft and develop.

[George Cumby]

As we all know, Ted DOESNT CARE about several positions just the way Dom DOESNT CARE about defending the middle of the field.

[George Cumby]

By all accounts, Ted is honorable man.

It is well known that BB is a cheater.

I'm good with Ted.

[mraynrand]

By all accounts, Ted is honorable man..

So are they all, all HONORABLE MEN, HONORABLE MEN! THIS WAS A MAN! No tears for TT...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbR68B0extA

[George Cumby]

Awesome.

But who is Brutus?

[Guiness]

Would Belichick be the same without Brady? Who was luckier getting their QB, the Packers or the Patriots?
Before having Brady as his starter, as a head coach, Belichick was 41-57 in six full seasons and the first two games of 2001; 5-13 with the Patriots.



Not to mention Bledsoe was in NE when he got there, and while not HOF caliber, he was a pretty damn good QB himself.

[Upnorth]

No he didn't - we've had a hole at ILB for years; in 2011 we had one of the worst defenses in league history, and some of us saw it coming, yet TT did nothing. He started trying to address the mess the next year, but didn't sign any FA's to fill holes.

This year, we don't have a lot of holes - TE was one, and TT surprisingly addressed it, but ILB is still a colossal mess. If he doesn't fill it in the draft, what are the odds he lifts a finger in FA after the draft?? The answer is, the odds are not good he will do anything.

TT's MO is well established - and he is criticized every year for it. We won one SB in TT's 11 year reign, hallelujah... we're going to end up with 2 SB's in the span of 25+ years all the while having 2 HOF QB's. That doesn't add up for me - I want more, I want better.

Your comment on the expectations of the 2011 defense is a bald face lie. No professional saw it coming, and some were saying our defense wa better than our offense.

[Patler]

No he didn't - we've had a hole at ILB for years; in 2011 we had one of the worst defenses in league history, and some of us saw it coming, yet TT did nothing. He started trying to address the mess the next year, but didn't sign any FA's to fill holes.

This year, we don't have a lot of holes - TE was one, and TT surprisingly addressed it, but ILB is still a colossal mess. If he doesn't fill it in the draft, what are the odds he lifts a finger in FA after the draft?? The answer is, the odds are not good he will do anything.

TT's MO is well established - and he is criticized every year for it. We won one SB in TT's 11 year reign, hallelujah... we're going to end up with 2 SB's in the span of 25+ years all the while having 2 HOF QB's. That doesn't add up for me - I want more, I want better.

Does he do what you want/suggest every year? No.
Did he do it in 2014? Absolutely.
Has he done it in 2016? Absolutely
Was he able to address every weakness? No, but no one can without creating other holes.

I have said for years that being a good GM is a balancing act, because everything you do, every trade, every FA signing, every resigning of your own players has repercussions in the future.

You probably will rant when I write this (you have in the past), but I will write it anyway, because it is true. You will always be able to find a weakness and say; "Look what he ignored!" If he signed an ILB in 2014 instead of Peppers, I suspect you would have complained about the weakness opposite Matthews. So yes, he hasn't found the answer at ILB. A team without a significant weakness usually gets there by luck and by accident. Luck by lack of injuries at positions with little or no depth. Accident by a low round draft pick or UDREFA filing a big hole beyond reasonable expectations.

That said, I have always agreed with you on one thing. One aspect of "GM'ing" is applying the finishing touch, so to speak, after a competitive roster is established. TT has tried several approaches to that, including signing Peppers in 2014 and Cook this year. It looked like it worked in 2014 when they were on the doorstep of a SB. The 2015 off season presented some challenges, as there were a number of holes to be addressed several created in that off season. I suspect TT viewed CB as a bigger issue because of the way the game is played today. He was able to strengthen that spot significantly, and I think he deserves more credit for that than many are willing to give him because many thought he selected odd players to fill those needs. Two guys that most projected as safeties in the NFL, and projected by many at lower rounds than where TT selected them. I would submit that he actually did address the ILB issue too, by getting rid of Hawk and Jones (improvement by subtraction). I expect the thinking was that Barrington+Matthews+a third from somewhere was an improvement over Hawk+Jones/Lattimore/Matthews. Had one of the right players been available, I suspect he would have taken one in the 2nd round, but there was a run on linebackers between the Packers 1st and 2nd picks. That's OK with me, I like Rollins, and think he will be a valuable player for GB.

I think the loss of Barrington was more significant in their plans than people realize, and I doubt anyone expected the WRs to crash and burn as badly as they did even with the loss of Nelson, except those applying a clear hindsight approach. Throw in a sub par year by Rodgers, Lacy experimenting with a new playing weight, the OTs and center going down for multiple games each and you get exactly what you got in 2015. That doesn't automatically mean his preparation for 2015 was faulty.

So, while I agree that part of successful GM'ing is applying the finishing touch, I believe it should not be done with a blind eye to the future; and I also believe that TT has done more in that are than he is credited for, including resigning some of his own players to short term deals, like Raji last year and the year before, Perry and Starks this year, etc. Those were done with an eye to just the next season, not the long-term future.

[wist43]

Your comment on the expectations of the 2011 defense is a bald face lie. No professional saw it coming, and some were saying our defense wa better than our offense.

I saw it coming, and a lot of other people saw it coming too... we were iffy-to-weak in the front seven going into the SB and TT let Jenkins and Green walk. Green okay, and you can make the case that Jenkins was too pricey - but then what are you going to do to replace them?? TT's answer is - nothing. We had guys like Zombo, Brad Jones, Jarius Wynn, Robert Francois, Jamari Lattimore, and of course the 'oh so pedestrian' AJ Hawk.

That's a mess of football player humanity - and TT decided to roll with it... all the way to NFL infamy.

As ayn pointed out, no one could have predicted the loss of Collins - and I admit that hurt a lot, but TT's 2011 draft, as I pointed out, went 5 of the first 6 on offense - and as it turned out in the long run, that was a terrible, terrible draft, regardless of offense or defense anyway.

Another mitigating factor is dunderdummy... he was a complete disaster that year, as opposed to just being the usual disaster that he is. Dunderdummy is an ongoing mess waiting to happen - can't necessarily put that on TT.

[Patler]

TT's MO is well established - and he is criticized every year for it. We won one SB in TT's 11 year reign, hallelujah... we're going to end up with 2 SB's in the span of 25+ years all the while having 2 HOF QB's. That doesn't add up for me - I want more, I want better.

I agree, the final result hasn't been what you hope or expect with two HOF QBs, but TT isn't responsible for all of it, because Wolf and Sherman were the GMs responsible for the Favre years. The roster and salary cap were not in good shape at all when TT arrived in 2005, essentially taking care of the Favre years. That said, I think the Packers should have won a second SB with Favre, for which I blame Holmgren and his staff, not Wolf. I also believe the Packers should have won a second SB with Rodgers already, for which I blame MM and his staff more than I blame TT.

[Patler]

I saw it coming, and a lot of other people saw it coming too... we were iffy-to-weak in the front seven going into the SB and TT let Jenkins and Green walk. Green okay, and you can make the case that Jenkins was too pricey - but then what are you going to do to replace them?? TT's answer is - nothing. We had guys like Zombo, Brad Jones, Jarius Wynn, Robert Francois, Jamari Lattimore, and of course the 'oh so pedestrian' AJ Hawk.

That's a mess of football player humanity - and TT decided to roll with it... all the way to NFL infamy.

As ayn pointed out, no one could have predicted the loss of Collins - and I admit that hurt a lot, but TT's 2011 draft, as I pointed out, went 5 of the first 6 on offense - and as it turned out in the long run, that was a terrible, terrible draft, regardless of offense or defense anyway.

Another mitigating factor is dunderdummy... he was a complete disaster that year, as opposed to just being the usual disaster that he is. Dunderdummy is an ongoing mess waiting to happen - can't necessarily put that on TT.

If you are completely objective, there were more unforeseeable issues in 2011, not just Collins career ending injury.

Tramon Williams severely injured his shoulder in, I think, game #1, and essentially played with one arm for two years. In 2011 he was especially limited. That was a huge change from 2010 when he was one of the best cover guys in the league.

Raji was a fairly dominant player in 2010, and disappeared a lot in 2011.

If Hawk continued to play as he had his first 4 or 5 years, we would still have been disappointed based on his draft spot, but not as frustrated as we became from his last 4-5 years. We didn't know it at the time, but 2010 was he transition point. He was much better before 2010, much worse after. No, he was never the All-Pro we hoped for, but he hadn't been as limiting for the defense as he bacame after that.

This one might have been expected - Woodson began to decline noticeably. To be honest, I think we saw it start in 2010. To his credit, I think he adapted after a year or so, recognizing his physical slide and embracing a new role. As I said, maybe this was entirely foreseeable, but it caused was a factor in the change from a good defense in 2010 to a miserable one in 2011.

I agree, there is a Capers factor in all of it. But he is and always has been a teflon-coated DC.

[mraynrand]

I should point out how stupid it is to complain about how you knew 2011 was going to go south and, at the same time, bark about TT doing nothing about it in the draft THAT YEAR. He should have done something the previous year, like drafting a better safety (Burnett) or versatile D-lineman/LB (Neal) or bringing in another corner in FA (Shields).

[woodbuck27]

I agree, the final result hasn't been what you hope or expect with two HOF QBs, but TT isn't responsible for all of it, because Wolf and Sherman were the GMs responsible for the Favre years. The roster and salary cap were not in good shape at all when TT arrived in 2005, essentially taking care of the Favre years. That said, I think the Packers should have won a second SB with Favre, for which I blame Holmgren and his staff, not Wolf. I also believe the Packers should have won a second SB with Rodgers already, for which I blame MM and his staff more than I blame TT.

Yes MM doesn't handle it well in terms of game management and knowing when to go for the throat in huge games.

MM likes to play it safely and settle for ties in regulation. Turn it all over to..too often the flip of a coin !

MM stays with coaches that it's too obvious to many Packer observers that need to be replaced. On that Ted Thompson could exert his power to overall manage his teams ability at the coaching level.

The Green Bay Packers have that homey 'Good Old Boys Club' thing going on. If your not growing stronger every season your going to fail.

This season should inform us.

The Aaron Rodgers cheer and Super Bowl is very possibly over or unfortunately coming to an end. Some fans like to point to the loss of Jordy Nelson as a major factor in a dramatic decline in Aaron Rodgers. Jordy Nelson will need to be the or almost Comeback Player of the Year for the Packers to get back to a Super Bowl.