Official FIRE Mike McCarthy thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[red]

thats enough, this team has completely quit

get rid of his fat ass and his whole staff

and get rid of as much of this team as you can, bunch of fucking losers right now

[Tony Oday]

Agreed.

[King Friday]

It certainly looks like McCarthy is going to have a very difficult time turning it around this year...and sub .500 against a cream puff schedule with a HOF caliber QB is certainly equivalent to doing a horrible job.

[woodbuck27]

He will soon be history.

It's time for MM to look for a job in College Football.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

In defense of the Fat Man, those are Ted Thompson's players out there. Especially Mr. Hyde, Burnett, Dix, Martinez, and pretty much every motherfucker out there playing that goddamn defense.

Injuries rocks the team. Thompson does what? NOTHING!

But agree. Fire McCarthy!

[King Friday]

He will soon be history.

It's time for MM to look for a job in College Football.

I doubt that. He's not the kind of guy that is going to get 16 year olds interested in playing for him...any more than Mike Sherman was at least.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I want McCarthy's head on a silver plate for continuing to play Richard Rodgers!

[Joemailman]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JAGVV4EKvk8/UpS-RfDOEXI/AAAAAAAAPKs/oWm4n_T4XtU/s1600/pitchforks.gif

[woodbuck27]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JAGVV4EKvk8/UpS-RfDOEXI/AAAAAAAAPKs/oWm4n_T4XtU/s1600/pitchforks.gif

Gee ! Mike McCarthy lives near that castle.

[Joemailman]

I want McCarthy's head on a silver plate for continuing to play Richard Rodgers!

We want Fluffy Perillo!

[pittstang5]

I don't think MM gets fired during the Season, but I think a change is in order. BUT, if he is let go, say tomorrow - who the hell takes over. Capers? No f'n way! Moss? hmmm, there's a reason he hasn't become a HC in the amount of time he's been here.

Who then?

[Joemailman]

I don't think MM gets fired during the Season, but I think a change is in order. BUT, if he is let go, say tomorrow - who the hell takes over. Capers? No f'n way! Moss? hmmm, there's a reason he hasn't become a HC in the amount of time he's been here.

Who then?

They won't make a change in the season. If they did, Clements or Trgovac would be the likely choices.

[red]

I don't think MM gets fired during the Season, but I think a change is in order. BUT, if he is let go, say tomorrow - who the hell takes over. Capers? No f'n way! Moss? hmmm, there's a reason he hasn't become a HC in the amount of time he's been here.

Who then?

if they fire fat mike then they better fire capers first

[George Cumby]

No promotion from within. This thing needs to be dismantled and start from ground zero.

[red]

No promotion from within. This thing needs to be dismantled and start from ground zero.

agreed

time for rebuild mode

[Freak Out]

Yep. Top choices for HC to build a new staff and GM if TT goes?

[TravisWilliams23]

This is game 9. It seems every week during the post game interviews the players say they'll learn from the mistakes they made in that game but...
the same shit happens every week. I don't know if it's inept players or inept coaching or a combo of both. I think the players are better than what they've shown bot now I just don't know.

[esoxx]

Stubby!

[bobblehead]

It certainly looks like McCarthy is going to have a very difficult time turning it around this year...and sub .500 against a cream puff schedule with a HOF caliber QB is certainly equivalent to doing a horrible job.

Well said. Logically without the emotion.

[Joemailman]

if they fire fat mike then they better fire capers first

When teams make a coaching change, they often fire the whole staff.

[Rutnstrut]

It certainly looks like McCarthy is going to have a very difficult time turning it around this year...and sub .500 against a cream puff schedule with a HOF caliber QB is certainly equivalent to doing a horrible job.

That's a very nice way of saying stubby is doing a horseshit job;)

[red]

remember when, i think it was last year and the year before, and maybe the year before that

i said our window was closing, and every year we waste with fat mike in charge is a wasted a-rod year without another SB. nooooooo, everyone said, we still have many good years ahead

this team has been going in the wrong direction for years, not the right one

yeah, told you so

[channtheman]

Yup, it's time for change. Every team that is equally as bad as us, comes out looking like Super Bowl contenders and we look like the Browns. Get him and TT out of there. Time to rebuild.

[th87]

TT can also GTFO.

[Rutnstrut]

remember when, i think it was last year and the year before, and maybe the year before that

i said our window was closing, and every year we waste with fat mike in charge is a wasted a-rod year without another SB. nooooooo, everyone said, we still have many good years ahead

this team has been going in the wrong direction for years, not the right one

yeah, told you so

For the record I was never part of the stubby nut hugger club on here. So yeah, Red and I told you so.

[mmmdk]

I'm the king of Stubby bashing.

[King Friday]

TT can also GTFO.

I agree with this as well. The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team. Toss in Thompson's inability to find a capable, healthy replacement for Finley for years...the ridiculously handled departure of Sitton...and the overall downward trend this team has witnessed over the last 2 years and you have enough reasons to think Thompson's best days are behind him.

It is better to just hire a new GM after this season and let that person assemble a new brain trust...rather than leave Thompson in place to oversee a transition that he won't see the conclusion of anyway.

[Bretsky]

Last year I noted it would not surprise me if Sean Payton was our next head coach after this season
I THINK I remember him getting a one year extension in NO.

Am I right ?

Also, goodbye Ted. They will lose Eliott Wolf soon if they don't give him the job. Let TT do what he does best; be a consultant behind closed doors.

[Bretsky]

I agree with this as well. The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team. Toss in Thompson's inability to find a capable, healthy replacement for Finley for years...the ridiculously handled departure of Sitton...and the overall downward trend this team has witnessed over the last 2 years and you have enough reasons to think Thompson's best days are behind him.

It is better to just hire a new GM after this season and let that person assemble a new brain trust...rather than leave Thompson in place to oversee a transition that he won't see the conclusion of anyway.


FIVE CLAP POST

[denverYooper]

Payton is an interesting comparable. The Saints were generally high powered for a few years and Drew Brees considered an elite QB, yet they've gone 7-9 the last two seasons. I was surprised to look back and see they won 7 games each of the last 2 years, because it feels like they lost a lot more than that.

Tomlin won the Superbowl in 2008 and went through a couple of 8-8 years with the Steelers in 2012 and 2013 before the Steelers rebounded a bit.

John Harbaugh won the Superbowl in 2012 and the Ravens were 8-8 the following year and 5-11 last year. The Ravens are above .500 this year but at 5-4 have a record that is in the same boat as the 16 or so teams within 1 game of .500.

Coughlin survived a number of disappointing seasons before he "retired".

My point is that coaches that have won the Superbowl and generally put together more winning seasons than not get a bit more leeway than most. The Packers are not a very good football team right now but I still think it would take more than 1 losing season for M3 to get canned. I imagine if things really go south that Capers might be let go but that M3 would get at least 1 more year.

I'm not defending McCarthy and am exasperated by the disconnect between how he feels about their preparation during the week vs their output on Sundays. I just think the odds are still good he will be given at least 1 more year to right the ship.

[SMBASS]

I agree with this as well. The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team.


I've never understood this mindset of RB's not being important in the NFL anymore. (Not just TT) Think Marshawn Lynch had any effect on Seattle...think Ezekial Elliott is having an effect with Dallas this year? (Yeah they have a great O Line which doesn't hurt.) You just can't be a 1 dimensional O with no threat of a run game and be successful. And TT's complete disregard for good/competent inside linebackers for many years just drove me nuts watching every team continue to exploit the middle of the field again and again. I understand you can't afford to have all pro players at every position but at some point you have to give a position more attention than just UDFA's and 7th round stiffs if it's an Achilles heel over and over.

As I've said before...I don't in any way think TT has been a complete failure, but some of his moves or lack of moves over the years have made no sense to me. I wouldn't be too broken up if both he and Stubby were replaced. They've had their run.

[pbmax]

I agree with this as well. The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team. Toss in Thompson's inability to find a capable, healthy replacement for Finley for years...the ridiculously handled departure of Sitton...and the overall downward trend this team has witnessed over the last 2 years and you have enough reasons to think Thompson's best days are behind him.

It is better to just hire a new GM after this season and let that person assemble a new brain trust...rather than leave Thompson in place to oversee a transition that he won't see the conclusion of anyway.

They ran thin at RB because the talent was at WR and elsewhere. They had Cobb and Monty to back that up and they don't wear out RBs like some teams. It was an eminently reasonable decision at the start of the season. Crockett and the other dude were not lighting it up.

You can't find a Pro Bowl TE every year. Patriots took 6 years and they took two because they weren't sure what they had. They drafted about 8 TEs before that trying to find one.

Though I think I agree that Ted should not necessarily get to make the next coach pick. I don't think he is going to stick around that long. Am not convinced the Eliot Wolf should get the job. Being the son of someone isn't a qualification.

[Jimx29]

Just think if they only would of listened to me 3-4 years ago about deer-in-the-headlights lardass :x

...oh, and whoever the jackwagon is the is supposed to be a strength and conditioning coach....punch his/her ticket out of town too

[wpony]

I have been a big mm supporter all the way up till 2 weeks ago at that time I just started having some questions but if your Of . can score 25 points points there is no way you should get blown out of a game because your d let them score over 40 points. Was it just me or was any big pass play play made today by the titians that didnt have gunther covering , I couldnt watch all the game but seemed they always called his name on a long gain by there receivers, our special teams were t special today it was our hole team almost that gave up and wasnt ready to play and that does come back on the coach I would say if tohey have to let MM coach one more game see how they do if they are still flat MM has lost the team and even a warlock couldnt raise them from the dead with out a new coach LOL , so yes I am a convert I want him gone and I was a big supporter

[mission]

I've been saying this for years........ drain the damn swamp

[mmmdk]

Payton is an interesting comparable. The Saints were generally high powered for a few years and Drew Brees considered an elite QB, yet they've gone 7-9 the last two seasons. I was surprised to look back and see they won 7 games each of the last 2 years, because it feels like they lost a lot more than that.

Tomlin won the Superbowl in 2008 and went through a couple of 8-8 years with the Steelers in 2012 and 2013 before the Steelers rebounded a bit.

John Harbaugh won the Superbowl in 2012 and the Ravens were 8-8 the following year and 5-11 last year. The Ravens are above .500 this year but at 5-4 have a record that is in the same boat as the 16 or so teams within 1 game of .500.

Coughlin survived a number of disappointing seasons before he "retired".

My point is that coaches that have won the Superbowl and generally put together more winning seasons than not get a bit more leeway than most. The Packers are not a very good football team right now but I still think it would take more than 1 losing season for M3 to get canned. I imagine if things really go south that Capers might be let go but that M3 would get at least 1 more year.

I'm not defending McCarthy and am exasperated by the disconnect between how he feels about their preparation during the week vs their output on Sundays. I just think the odds are still good he will be given at least 1 more year to right the ship.

My goodness! You're probably closer to the facts [to come] than most of us.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

no more 'give him one more year', he has had enough of those already. I repeat from an earlier post, what are the odds of us finding another great quarterback after two hall of fame qbs in a row? Our window is not just closing, it is slamming shut very quickly. We need a fresh unbiased look at this team, somebody who can make quick concise decisions. This team is just not fun to watch anymore, even when they win.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think that Sunday was the death knell for Capers. The defense is broke, again. I'd like to see him canned, but not holding my breath on that.

As others have said, how they have performed with the schedule they have had is indefensible (much like the offenses they have played against apparently) and given how the team has been the last 2 seasons, I agree that MM should be shown the door along with the whole staff after this season. No point really in firing him now as that never really works. I also think that it's time for TT to go as well. If the offense and defense are to change, so must the way those players are acquired and selected. Plus you cannot have a new HC brought in by a guy who's rumored to be leaving sooner rather than later choosing it.

The org is stale and there's nothing new and innovative on the field right now on either side of the ball.

[Clayish]

remember when, i think it was last year and the year before, and maybe the year before that

i said our window was closing, and every year we waste with fat mike in charge is a wasted a-rod year without another SB. nooooooo, everyone said, we still have many good years ahead

this team has been going in the wrong direction for years, not the right one

yeah, told you so

What about 2014 though? We were one of the best teams in football.

[pbmax]

Last year I noted it would not surprise me if Sean Payton was our next head coach after this season
I THINK I remember him getting a one year extension in NO.

Am I right ?

Also, goodbye Ted. They will lose Eliott Wolf soon if they don't give him the job. Let TT do what he does best; be a consultant behind closed doors.

Please explain the difference between Sean Payton and McCarthy? Because Payton has had much worse teams for much longer.

[Patler]

They ran thin at RB because the talent was at WR and elsewhere. They had Cobb and Monty to back that up and they don't wear out RBs like some teams. It was an eminently reasonable decision at the start of the season. Crockett and the other dude were not lighting it up.

You can't find a Pro Bowl TE every year. Patriots took 6 years and they took two because they weren't sure what they had. They drafted about 8 TEs before that trying to find one.

I agree.

Until they lost both Lacy and Starks the same week, I thought they were fine at RB. Lacy was running as well as he ever had, averaging 5.1/carry; and, while Starks hadn't shown much yet, he had limited opportunities, but was coming off his best year by far when he had nearly 1000 yards of total offense in a backup role. Their third back never plays anyway, is often inactive for games, so carrying one on PS seemed fine. It's hard to fault them for not having an experienced, starting caliber RB in the third RB spot on their roster, the way MM uses it.

As for TE, they had Finley in 2013. For as much as everyone wants to hate on Richard Rodgers, he wasn't an outrageous attempt at filling the role. He had spent time at WR in college, it just hasn't translated into the type of downfield threat at TE you hope to find. They've brought in a bunch of others who's best attributes were said to be as receivers, but it hasn't worked out. This year Cook should have had a good shot at filling the role, but of course has been injured. So what have they done to replace Finley?:

2013 - Still had Finley.
2014 - 3rd round pick for a receiving type TE.
2015 - 6th round pick for a receiving type TE.
2016 - signed Cook.

We shouldn't forget that RR's limitations didn't really show up until last year. As a rookie in 2014 he had 20 receptions and averaged over 11 yards, and had a 43 yard reception. I wish he had played last year at the weight he is at this year, he might have done more with all those opportunities he had.

[Iron Mike]

How's THIS for your new "Pittsburgh Tough" Head Coach???

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/steveschaefer/files/2015/02/Coaches-Cowher-2.jpg

Kevin Greene as LB coach???

[pbmax]

^ He has turned down close to a dozen jobs. In two Super Bowls, won one. Noted for having a terrible offense. Exactly what is the upside?

[Teamcheez1]

If Cowher hasn't come out of retirement yet for all of the other jobs that have been thrown at him, the Packers won't even register on his radar.

[pbmax]

This is the part of screaming for the coach's head I love. Fire the guy who has been the second best coach for a decade.

Then afterward find someone better. :roll:

Much prefer the Steelers approach. Force the current guy to get better. Hire new OC. Shakeup defense.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

TT can also GTFO.

Agree.

[red]

This is the part of screaming for the coach's head I love. Fire the guy who has been the second best coach for a decade.

Then afterward find someone better. :roll:

Much prefer the Steelers approach. Force the current guy to get better. Hire new OC. Shakeup defense.

if you've had a car for 20 years, and call it old relable, but one day the engine blows and the axles fall off, it might be time for a new car

[Patler]

I think it is possible a change is needed. I suggested earlier this year that MM may have begun to lose the veterans in the way he handled the Seattle playoff loss. He gave them a good plan to win the game, but then seemed to give away control to lose the game. Now, he has gone nearly 20 games without an answer for the offense. He has fired and replaced more coordinators and assistant coaches than is typical, but not much has improved on defense or special teams. infrequent good years, but overall mediocrity for both.

That said, I'm not much interested in any of the recycled head coaches who have been mentioned.

[Smidgeon]

This is the part of screaming for the coach's head I love. Fire the guy who has been the second best coach for a decade.

Then afterward find someone better. :roll:

Much prefer the Steelers approach. Force the current guy to get better. Hire new OC. Shakeup defense.

I also don't get the "Fire Capers" thing this year. Down as many starters as he is, starting Gunter and Goodson for a couple games--their #4 and #5 CBs, without Matthews due to a balky hamstring, losing their leading tackler yesterday, etc. Before yesterday, their losses were by 3, 14 (the league best Cowboys), 1, and 5. In other words, they were blown out twice including yesterday which was by far the most points they gave up. They had (might still have) the best run defense in the NFL and not because teams didn't try (although some teams got away from it).

The defense is breaking down because the pass rushers are broken down (Matthews' hamstring, Peppers' age, Perry's double teams, Fackrell's rookieness, Elliot's limitations) and because the pass defense is injured (Shields and Randall are still out), leaving the super-raw CBs in coverage. Perrish Cox is a wiley vet. He got his ankles broken three times that I can remember yesterday against the Packers but still ended up making very key plays down the stretch. Can you imagine Gunter, Rollins, or Goodson successfully doing any of that? The talent on defense is injured. The talent on offense is either injured or deficient.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

If Cowher hasn't come out of retirement yet for all of the other jobs that have been thrown at him, the Packers won't even register on his radar.

The team might be able to lure an even better candidate to Green Bay, Josh McDaniels, by offering a $5M-plus annual salary and the GM title.

Replace two birds with one stone, as the saying goes.

[arcilite]

Absolutely no way should we also give a coach GM powers again. It's a disaster. BB might be the only one who kind of makes it work.


If we get rid of TT, easy choice is have Wolf replace him. Have Wolf bring in his guy.

[Patler]

Absolutely no way should we also give a coach GM powers again. It's a disaster. BB might be the only one who kind of makes it work.


I sometimes feel that BB the head coach wins in spite of the GM he is burdened with!

[Teamcheez1]

Absolutely no way should we also give a coach GM powers again. It's a disaster. BB might be the only one who kind of makes it work.


If we get rid of TT, easy choice is have Wolf replace him. Have Wolf bring in his guy.

This could be the way the Packers go. Bring in a new GM (Wolf or otherwise), and let him decide the route we should take with the coach. MM might get another year to "coach for his job" in that scenario.

[hoosier]

The team might be able to lure an even better candidate to Green Bay, Josh McDaniels, by offering a $5M-plus annual salary and the GM title.

Replace two birds with one stone, as the saying goes.

That's a great idea. Let's trade Rodgers and sign Tebow and Orton while we're at it.

[Patler]

This could be the way the Packers go. Bring in a new GM (Wolf or otherwise), and let him decide the route we should take with the coach. MM might get another year to "coach for his job" in that scenario.

If the Packers have already decided on Wolf as the eventual replacement for TT, they could replace MM now, and simply rely heavily on Wolf when picking the replacement. Kind of the best of two worlds, let Wolf more or less pick the HC, yet give Wolf an easy out to fire the guy in a few years if Wolf takes over and the coach is less than stellar.

[arcilite]

I sometimes feel that BB the head coach wins in spite of the GM he is burdened with!

I agree. I'm sure there were many Pats fans between 2005-2013 that called for BB to be stripped of GM duties. He can't draft a WR to save his life.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Absolutely no way should we also give a coach GM powers again. It's a disaster. BB might be the only one who kind of makes it work.


If we get rid of TT, easy choice is have Wolf replace him. Have Wolf bring in his guy.

The last time the Pack had a GM, slash, coach running the show, that GM/Coach won 44 regular season games in 4 years, and he NEVER missed the playoffs.

Disaster? You don't know disaster! 4-12 was a disaster. 6-10 a season after reaching the NFC Title game was a disaster. THIS season is a disaster.

Someone, I think my archenemy not named the Kentucky - pbmax - once said just cos the junior Wolf has the Wolf name doesn't mean he automatically will be Wolf-with-the-Pack good (Wolf was awful in Tampa). I agree.

J-Mac holds a PhD in Belichickology. Learned from his mistakes in Denver. Now less arrogant. J-Mac could make the Packers great again.

[pbmax]

if you've had a car for 20 years, and call it old relable, but one day the engine blows and the axles fall off, it might be time for a new car

Perhaps, all things must come to an end. But only Thompson knows if McCarthy is spent.

[pbmax]

The last time the Pack had a GM, slash, coach running the show, that GM/Coach won 44 regular season games in 4 years, and he NEVER missed the playoffs.

Disaster? You don't know disaster! 4-12 was a disaster. 6-10 a season after reaching the NFC Title game was a disaster. THIS season is a disaster.

Someone, I think my archenemy not named the Kentucky - pbmax - once said just cos the junior Wolf has the Wolf name doesn't mean he automatically will be Wolf-with-the-Pack good (Wolf was awful in Tampa). I agree.

J-Mac holds a PhD in Belichickology. Learned from his mistakes in Denver. Now less arrogant. J-Mac could make the Packers great again.

Tauscher said on the radio yesterday that Sherman was clearly overwhelmed by both jobs. If everyone inside the building could see it, its pretty damning.

Also a 4 year run of playoff participation is chump change compared to McCarthy.

[TravisWilliams23]

McDaniels is doing what he's best at doing right now. Some guys are just good at one thing and can't handle the whole show.
Examples: Buddy Ryan, Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Todd Haley, Dave Wannstedt, Phil Bengsten, Jim Shwartz, etc.
From what I've watched and read about Josh, he's not head coaching material.
Here's a funny clip of his stint at Denver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr7T_jcXmT4

[pbmax]

McDaniels is doing what he's best at doing right now. Some guys are just good at one thing and can't handle the whole show.
Examples: Buddy Ryan, Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Todd Haley, Dave Wannstedt, Phil Bengsten, Jim Shwartz, etc.
From what I've watched and read about Josh, he's not head coaching material.
Here's a funny clip of his stint at Denver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr7T_jcXmT4

I am with you on this one Trav, but some people do improve with time and experience.

The toughest job is knowing who to trust. You have to talk with them and see if you detect real growth versus a slick power point presentation. We'll never know how that plays out unless someone writes a book after wild success or spectacular failure.

If you limit the search to those without blemishes, you hire Pat Shurmur or Dennis Allen.

[pbmax]

Unless Ted is willing to commit to five more years (NOT the Ron Wolf plan) I don't let him hire the next coach if they decide to fire M3.

You get a GM and go from there.

Then you hire a coach named Mike.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tauscher said on the radio yesterday that Sherman was clearly overwhelmed by both jobs. If everyone inside the building could see it, its pretty damning.

Also a 4 year run of playoff participation is chump change compared to McCarthy.

I don't know how overwhelmed Sherman was, but he absolutely did not want to give up the GM title. Before anyone type "Joe Johnson", Sherman was a competent GM. Competently utilized ALL aspects of the game. Sure, there were some misses, but competent still. Packers never missed the playoffs with Sherman in charge of the Iron Throne.

McCarthy was never GM/Coach. But give Sherman the 11 years the Fat Man has had, and Hades-yeah, Pack would've won at least 4 Super Bowls in this century by now. :)

[gbgary]

although i didn't like his play calling at first i liked him and the team seemed to respond. things got better as time went along. i'd be willing to give him more time but only if the entire offensive "system" is scrapped. bring in a REAL offensive coordinator and set up a more structured offense. i think capers needs to go...or at least rethink EVERYTHING (which i'm not sure he can/would do). the major thing is thompson. his lack of win-now attitude has lead us to this point. the talent drain on the field is something that can't be argued. drafting where we draft hasn't been supported in FA. there's been a talent drain in the coaching/front-office too. numerous people have gone to other teams and left our team weaker. as i said weeks ago, the running back situation was/is tantamount to negligence.

[Patler]

The last time the Pack had a GM, slash, coach running the show, that GM/Coach won 44 regular season games in 4 years, and he NEVER missed the playoffs.


When you drill down a little bit, his record isn't so impressive. He made the playoffs largely because no other team in the division had a winning record for his years. Basically, he started the season with 5 or 6 wins in the bank because the division wasn't very good. He had the good fortune to play a lot of bad teams outside the division, too. I analyzed it at one point, and as I recall his record against teams that finished the year above .500 was poor overall, and declined each of the years he was in charge.

Things wre spiralling downward for him.

[Smidgeon]

Unless Ted is willing to commit to five more years (NOT the Ron Wolf plan) I don't let him hire the next coach if they decide to fire M3.

You get a GM and go from there.

Then you hire a coach named Mike.

Yep. Green Bay has a few requirements for future head coaches:

1) Win Super Bowl
2) High powered offense
3) Be named Mike

M4, here we come (eventually).

[pbmax]

I don't know how overwhelmed Sherman was, but he absolutely did not want to give up the GM title. Before anyone type "Joe Johnson", Sherman was a competent GM. Competently utilized ALL aspects of the game. Sure, there were some misses, but competent still. Packers never missed the playoffs with Sherman in charge of the Iron Throne.

McCarthy was never GM/Coach. But give Sherman the 11 years the Fat Man has had, and Hades-yeah, Pack would've won at least 4 Super Bowls in this century by now. :)

Obviously the rest of the football world agrees with you. Look at his accomplishments since the Packers mistakenly let him go.

2006 Asst HC Texans' regular season offense ranked 28th out of 32 NFL teams.[12]
2007 OC Texans, regular season offense improved to a ranking of 14.[13]
2008 HC Aggies - 4-8 record
2009 HC Aggies - 6-7 but they beat Texas Tech!
2010 Aggies HC Co-Big South Division Champs! 9-3!!!!
2011 Aggies HC 7–6, 4–5 in Big 12 play to finish in a tie for sixth place. They were invited to the Meineke Car Care Bowl of Texas where they defeated Northwestern 33–22!!
FIRED!? Completely unfair. Unrecognized genius.
2012 Dolphins OC 7-9!
2013 Dolphins OC 8-8!
2014 Dolphins OC FIRED AGAIN !?!?!?
2015 HIGH SCHOOL!! He replaced Keith Kenyon who resigned as football coach to be the Assistant Principal.

Listen, its easy to misunderstand all this and to look down on Mike Sherman's post Packers career. But lets face it, making two bowl games is almost exactly like making the NFL playoffs. He's a genius.

[woodbuck27]

I'm the king of Stubby bashing.

How many Kings does Packer Nation have; just consider our house ' Packerrats ' and a logical reason for booting MM and TT?

It's been over the top too obvious over the past 3-4 seasons that any reality and another Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers and this ' asshole tight ' GM and HC and his DC etc. are, over the top due to be FIRED.

Any logical analysis of the current roster will come to a conclusion that is nothing short of a disaster and real hope and Super Bowl. I want it all blown up and to see where we can go in a brand new five year window. As it is now we are 'in reality' going nowhere and long playoff run.

[woodbuck27]

I agree with this as well. The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team. Toss in Thompson's inability to find a capable, healthy replacement for Finley for years...the ridiculously handled departure of Sitton...and the overall downward trend this team has witnessed over the last 2 years and you have enough reasons to think Thompson's best days are behind him.

It is better to just hire a new GM after this season and let that person assemble a new brain trust...rather than leave Thompson in place to oversee a transition that he won't see the conclusion of anyway.

Well stated !

[pbmax]

How many Kings does Packer Nation have; just consider our house ' Packerrats ' and a logical reason for booting MM and TT?

It's been over the top too obvious over the past 3-4 seasons that any reality and another Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers and this ' asshole tight ' GM and HC and his DC etc. are, over the top due to be FIRED.

Any logical analysis of the current roster will come to a conclusion that is nothing short of a disaster and real hope and Super Bowl. I want it all blown up and to see where we can go in a brand new five year window. As it is now we are 'in reality' going nowhere and long playoff run.

Explain the 2014 season as being clear reason to fire all 3.

[Carolina_Packer]

I also don't get the "Fire Capers" thing this year. Down as many starters as he is, starting Gunter and Goodson for a couple games--their #4 and #5 CBs, without Matthews due to a balky hamstring, losing their leading tackler yesterday, etc. Before yesterday, their losses were by 3, 14 (the league best Cowboys), 1, and 5. In other words, they were blown out twice including yesterday which was by far the most points they gave up. They had (might still have) the best run defense in the NFL and not because teams didn't try (although some teams got away from it).

The defense is breaking down because the pass rushers are broken down (Matthews' hamstring, Peppers' age, Perry's double teams, Fackrell's rookieness, Elliot's limitations) and because the pass defense is injured (Shields and Randall are still out), leaving the super-raw CBs in coverage. Perrish Cox is a wiley vet. He got his ankles broken three times that I can remember yesterday against the Packers but still ended up making very key plays down the stretch. Can you imagine Gunter, Rollins, or Goodson successfully doing any of that? The talent on defense is injured. The talent on offense is either injured or deficient.

+ 1

Sure, nobody wants to use injuries as an excuse. "Next man up!" We are seeing plenty of next men...several of them playing more snaps than anyone on the coaching staff (or front office) likely hoped that would have to play this year. Gunter was an improving player, but still a complimentary one. Now he's pressed into action because TT decided that they were good at CB. I don't want to give anyone a completely free pass because of injuries, but it factors into what I believe is affecting the team's performance on the field. A famous campaign consultant, James Carville, once coined the phrase "It's the economy, stupid" when coming up with a slogan/strategy for winning the 1992 presidential election. Extend that to "It's the players, stupid." I'm not saying we'd be 9-0 if we had all the guys who have been lost to injury. I'd like to think we'd have a winning record, and much of this fire this guy, fire that guy would be held in check. Perhaps MM's voice has run it's course in GB, or perhaps they are playing a bunch of inexperienced guys at the same time, and are hoping for the light to turn on while praying for the starters to make it back before the season is hopelessly lost.

In 2010 they had a lot of injuries, but clearly had enough depth. This year, not so much.

[Patler]

How was the running back situation such a blunder? Eddie Lacy + an experienced backup who had nearly 1000 yards in 2015. Lacy was running as well as he ever had until he was injured.

Where was this monumental blunder that some of you are talking about????

[pbmax]

How banged up was the secondary in 2010? They lost Wood and someone (Shields) in the Super Bowl. But did they lose both starters during the year?

[woodbuck27]

Payton is an interesting comparable. The Saints were generally high powered for a few years and Drew Brees considered an elite QB, yet they've gone 7-9 the last two seasons. I was surprised to look back and see they won 7 games each of the last 2 years, because it feels like they lost a lot more than that.

Tomlin won the Superbowl in 2008 and went through a couple of 8-8 years with the Steelers in 2012 and 2013 before the Steelers rebounded a bit.

John Harbaugh won the Superbowl in 2012 and the Ravens were 8-8 the following year and 5-11 last year. The Ravens are above .500 this year but at 5-4 have a record that is in the same boat as the 16 or so teams within 1 game of .500.

Coughlin survived a number of disappointing seasons before he "retired".

My point is that coaches that have won the Superbowl and generally put together more winning seasons than not get a bit more leeway than most. The Packers are not a very good football team right now but I still think it would take more than 1 losing season for M3 to get canned. I imagine if things really go south that Capers might be let go but that M3 would get at least 1 more year.

I'm not defending McCarthy and am exasperated by the disconnect between how he feels about their preparation during the week vs their output on Sundays. I just think the odds are still good he will be given at least 1 more year to right the ship.

As some of us may be 'betting men' and logically looking at how the current Packer Brainthrust ( LOL) farts around.

You would get a lot of support for your conclusion.

[Carolina_Packer]

Payton is an interesting comparable. The Saints were generally high powered for a few years and Drew Brees considered an elite QB, yet they've gone 7-9 the last two seasons. I was surprised to look back and see they won 7 games each of the last 2 years, because it feels like they lost a lot more than that.

Tomlin won the Superbowl in 2008 and went through a couple of 8-8 years with the Steelers in 2012 and 2013 before the Steelers rebounded a bit.

John Harbaugh won the Superbowl in 2012 and the Ravens were 8-8 the following year and 5-11 last year. The Ravens are above .500 this year but at 5-4 have a record that is in the same boat as the 16 or so teams within 1 game of .500.

Coughlin survived a number of disappointing seasons before he "retired".

My point is that coaches that have won the Superbowl and generally put together more winning seasons than not get a bit more leeway than most. The Packers are not a very good football team right now but I still think it would take more than 1 losing season for M3 to get canned. I imagine if things really go south that Capers might be let go but that M3 would get at least 1 more year.

I'm not defending McCarthy and am exasperated by the disconnect between how he feels about their preparation during the week vs their output on Sundays. I just think the odds are still good he will be given at least 1 more year to right the ship.

Well reasoned and stated. I would prefer the Pittsburgh approach. I see Green Bay as having a slow, steady hand in reacting to such issues, and not firing everyone in a blaze of glory with no plan behind it. Perhaps they do need a new OC to overcome the stale route tree and receivers performance within that route tree. Perhaps they need a take the top off the defense WR that they don't currently have. Perhaps they need a TE who can stay healthy and produce down the seam. I think AR can still hit an open receiver, the issue being consistently having enough open receivers. The offense needs new life. The other MM (Mark Murphy) needs to figure out 1) whether Ted wants to retire 2) if he doesn't want to retire, if he can work with McCarthy to get him to find a new voice to guide the offense. That alone may not produce enough to beat man coverage. That's where Ted comes in.

[call_me_ishmael]

LOL, I would be shocked if MM is fired this year. He'd need one more year of .500 play. Y'all know we had the best team in the league two years ago and it was only botched up by a PLAYER not following instructions, right?

[Carolina_Packer]

How was the running back situation such a blunder? Eddie Lacy + an experienced backup who had nearly 1000 yards in 2015. Lacy was running as well as he ever had until he was injured.

Where was this monumental blunder that some of you are talking about????

If Crockett had not gotten injured in pre-season, he very well may have been kept as the third back, which certainly would have been a welcome site when both Lacy and Starks went down and roughly the same time. Again, no free passes on injuries, but somehow they have to factor into a fan's judgement of the team's performance. Lose your top two running backs and not have a drop off in the run game? Um, OK. I don't say this in defense of the leadership, but just in defense of reality. At some positions, because of injuries, they are bringing a knife to a gun fight each week.

[woodbuck27]

Explain the 2014 season as being clear reason to fire all 3.

Clearly..... I'm making reference to the trend we've seen of failure.

MM's performance in our last game in the 2014 Season playoffs (blowing that game Vs Seattle) may well be a logical reason for a beginning of any festering in the Packer Locker Room.

[gbgary]

the capers thing is this (to me anyway)...it's blitzing when we're depleted in the secondary, it's not playing physical man-to-man (penalties be damned like sea), it's not jamming at the line, it's not hammering people (TEs, RBs, and WRs, within the 5 yrds of the line on pass plays) when running crossing routes...but that's just me.

[Patler]

The comparison with 2010 is valid for number of injuries, but probably not for impact. Losing your top 3 CBs after letting one of your top 3 from 2015 leave in FA is a pretty big hurdle. Losing Cook this year is similar to, but probably less impact than losing JF in 2010, as it seemed JF was going to be a featured aspect of the offense. But the offense had other options. Barnett in 2010 vs. Matthews now, more impact this year. They missed Barnett so much that they released him the off season following 2010. Morgan Burnett, Brad jones, Mike Neal all missed a lot of games in 2010, but were not yet (some would say "ever") impact players anyway. Losing Lacy this year has more impact than those three combined, especially with losing Starks for a fourth of the season.

[woodbuck27]

Perhaps, all things must come to an end. But only Thompson knows if McCarthy is spent.
NO !

Only TT can determine for Packer Nation that MM is spent.

I think that there is too much evidence that MM is too stubborn to simply step out.

[red]

so, it sounds like a lot of us agree that its time for TT to also go

when do you make that move?

you don't usually hear about GM's getting canned in the middle of the season, but our GM isn't doing a whole hell of a lot this time of year other then preparing for the draft.

and if you do make the switch this offseason, you aren't gonna want TT to draft for you on his way out the door, you would want your new guy to draft his players. but if you wait until the offseason to can TT and bring in a new GM, then he doesn't have as much scouting time

when do you make this move, if its even made

[Pugger]

I have been a big mm supporter all the way up till 2 weeks ago at that time I just started having some questions but if your Of . can score 25 points points there is no way you should get blown out of a game because your d let them score over 40 points. Was it just me or was any big pass play play made today by the titians that didnt have gunther covering , I couldnt watch all the game but seemed they always called his name on a long gain by there receivers, our special teams were t special today it was our hole team almost that gave up and wasnt ready to play and that does come back on the coach I would say if tohey have to let MM coach one more game see how they do if they are still flat MM has lost the team and even a warlock couldnt raise them from the dead with out a new coach LOL , so yes I am a convert I want him gone and I was a big supporter

Poor Gunter should still be learning his craft on the PS instead of trying to cover NFL #1 WRs. If I were an OC playing the Packers I'd go after Gunter, Brice, Rollins, Goodson and Hawkins relentlessly.

[Pugger]

Please explain the difference between Sean Payton and McCarthy? Because Payton has had much worse teams for much longer.

No kidding. Since the Saints' SB what have they done? In the 6 years since then they won the SB they have been under .500 half of those seasons.

[Freak Out]

Poor Gunter should still be learning his craft on the PS instead of trying to cover NFL #1 WRs. If I were an OC playing the Packers I'd go after Gunter, Brice, Rollins, Goodson and Hawkins relentlessly.

They don't? lol

[Pugger]

Obviously the rest of the football world agrees with you. Look at his accomplishments since the Packers mistakenly let him go.

2006 Asst HC Texans' regular season offense ranked 28th out of 32 NFL teams.[12]
2007 OC Texans, regular season offense improved to a ranking of 14.[13]
2008 HC Aggies - 4-8 record
2009 HC Aggies - 6-7 but they beat Texas Tech!
2010 Aggies HC Co-Big South Division Champs! 9-3!!!!
2011 Aggies HC 7–6, 4–5 in Big 12 play to finish in a tie for sixth place. They were invited to the Meineke Car Care Bowl of Texas where they defeated Northwestern 33–22!!
FIRED!? Completely unfair. Unrecognized genius.
2012 Dolphins OC 7-9!
2013 Dolphins OC 8-8!
2014 Dolphins OC FIRED AGAIN !?!?!?
2015 HIGH SCHOOL!! He replaced Keith Kenyon who resigned as football coach to be the Assistant Principal.

Listen, its easy to misunderstand all this and to look down on Mike Sherman's post Packers career. But lets face it, making two bowl games is almost exactly like making the NFL playoffs. He's a genius.

Don't confuse Tank with facts here. :lol:

[Pugger]

How was the running back situation such a blunder? Eddie Lacy + an experienced backup who had nearly 1000 yards in 2015. Lacy was running as well as he ever had until he was injured.

Where was this monumental blunder that some of you are talking about????

I guess the blunder was not being clairvoyant enough to know both RBs would get hurt simultaneously.

[Fritz]

Mikey-Mike keeps saying how much he likes these guys. I hope this isn't turning into a little league atmosphere.

Where's the ghost of Wayne Simmons?

I used to, as many of you know, complain about what seemed an inordinate number of Packer injuries. But this year, more and more teams seem to be suffering from as many injuries. Thus, I am left to think that the teams with the best GM's should do well, as drafting good depth is one of the qualities of a good GM. In this we always thought Ted was king - he could find that gem in the fifth round, that key backup as an undrafted FA.

Yet the Packers are floundering - 9 - 12 in their last 19 games, I think? Has Ted pooped the bed on depth, on star power, on both? Is the game passing him by?

Is it MM and his apparent Schottenheimeriness?

Is it Olivia Munn?

What the hell is it?

[Pugger]

so, it sounds like a lot of us agree that its time for TT to also go

when do you make that move?

you don't usually hear about GM's getting canned in the middle of the season, but our GM isn't doing a whole hell of a lot this time of year other then preparing for the draft.

and if you do make the switch this offseason, you aren't gonna want TT to draft for you on his way out the door, you would want your new guy to draft his players. but if you wait until the offseason to can TT and bring in a new GM, then he doesn't have as much scouting time

when do you make this move, if its even made

I'll be surprised - unless things get significantly worse - if any moves are made before this season is done.

[Pugger]

They don't? lol

I should have added the word "too" at the end of my post. :lol:

[beveaux1]

The comparison with 2010 is valid for number of injuries, but probably not for impact. Losing your top 3 CBs after letting one of your top 3 from 2015 leave in FA is a pretty big hurdle. Losing Cook this year is similar to, but probably less impact than losing JF in 2010, as it seemed JF was going to be a featured aspect of the offense. But the offense had other options. Barnett in 2010 vs. Matthews now, more impact this year. They missed Barnett so much that they released him the off season following 2010. Morgan Burnett, Brad jones, Mike Neal all missed a lot of games in 2010, but were not yet (some would say "ever") impact players anyway. Losing Lacy this year has more impact than those three combined, especially with losing Starks for a fourth of the season.

Before this season, I had a vague realization that some positions on offense and defense were more important than others. This season has driven home that distinction. Although it took defensive coordinators a few games to scheme the Packers' loss of Shields, it's been driven home the last 5 weeks. It's also shown me how much of an impact Matthews had on the pass defense in general, and the pass rush in particular. His loss has stunted Perry and Jones and left us with no pass rush if we're not rushing 5 or more. The loss of Shields, who could be put on an island, has left someone open nearly every play, usually wide open. Every 3rd down, no matter the distance needed, our pass rush goes nowhere, and someone is open past the sticks. This has allowed average to poor offensive teams like the Colts to score over 30 points, and good offensive teams, like the Falcons and Titans, to score almost at will.

We focus a lot on the offense in this forum, and that is truly McCarthy's domain. We still don't see the dominant offense that we had pre-2014. My feeling is that we will never see it due to a combination of age, injury, coaching stubbornness, and defensive advances. I don't think the drop-off in offense makes much difference in the big picture of wins and losses if your pass defense can't get you off the field.

I believe Cliff Christl said that the difference between all teams in the league were the number of plus players (game changers and players that made others better) that each team had. During that 2010 season, we had Woodson, Matthews, Collins, and possibly Raji on defense. On offense we had Rodgers (probably a double plus) and maybe Jennings and Finley. We lost only Finley for an appreciable amount of time.

This year, at the beginning of the season, we had Shields, Matthews, and possibly Daniels on defense. On offense, we had Rodgers (not a double plus anymore) and Lacy. The only plus players we're playing with are Daniels and a fading Rodgers.

I agree with you that this season is a lot different than 2010 for impact of injuries. If it's true that plus players are the difference between teams in this league, we're really going to struggle to make 8-8 with this roster.

[Patler]

I guess the blunder was not being clairvoyant enough to know both RBs would get hurt simultaneously.

...and not having a starting calber experienced veteran willing to ride the bench behind them until the expected simultaneous injuries happened.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Lacy entered this season as a question.

I have to disagree that the coaches were blindsided by Starks's decline. Ya he hasn't had many opportunities, but the talent evaluators see him perform in practice.

I know James had some good runs yesterday. He is ok once he gets in relatively open field, so he's a good screen receiver. He's just so damn slow coming out of the backfield. What is the opposite of quick feet? He's not quite in Noah "Cement Shoes" Heron territory, but now that he's out of his prime, he's not a good player.

[Fritz]

So is there sentiment here that it's MM who's not coaching up the talent, or is it Ted who's not giving MM enough talent, or is it all just getting stale, like an old marriage in which the combatants - er, partners - end up abusing one another behind each other's back all the time?

And if you did ditch MM, or MM and Ted, would a new coach really have any authority over Rodgers, if any needed to be exercised?

What to do, what to do? Why don't they just get their shit together and go 10-6 then get on a run and win the SB so we don't have to have these agonizing conversations?

Wh

[Patler]

Lacy entered this season as a question.

I have to disagree that the coaches were blindsided by Starks's decline. Ya he hasn't had many opportunities, but the talent evaluators see him perform in practice.

I know James had some good runs yesterday. He is ok once he gets in relatively open field, so he's a good screen receiver. He's just so damn slow coming out of the backfield. What is the opposite of quick feet? He's not quite in Noah "Cement Shoes" Heron territory, but now that he's out of his prime, he's not a good player.

Just as you suggest with Starks, the talent evaluators also saw Lacy perform in practice, too; so, maybe he wasn't a question mark in their eyes, and maybe Starks wasn't either. Besides, Lacy was just fine in the games he played.

Starks had his best year ever in 2015, why give up on him so easily?

So what are you suggesting, it was a blunder not to cut one or both in favor of someone else? Having a 3rd back on PS is just as good as having him on the regular roster. MM doesn't usually have all three active anyway. Heck, yesterday he didn't even keep one active behind Starks and Montgomery.

Finding some huge blunder in the rostering of RBs at the start of the season is simply hindsight analysis.

[red]

I AM A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL NFL COACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[Patler]

I AM A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL NFL COACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

:lol::lol: Ya, when a coach has to start pointing that out, he may have already jumped the shark.

[red]

:lol::lol: Ya, when a coach has to start pointing that out, he may have already jumped the shark.

i spit out my beer when i read that he actually said that

unreal

[Patler]

i spit out my beer when i read that he actually said that

unreal

For me, it was my coffee!

Makes me think the pressure has gotten to him somewhat. Maybe he even had a heart to heart this morning with TT/Murphy and he is defensive about his past successes, because he was put on notice about the organizations expectations.

I still think TT/Murphy had to have been upset with the Seattle playoff blowup, and have to see that the team has been sliding ever since.

[pbmax]

For me, it was my coffee!

Makes me think the pressure has gotten to him somewhat. Maybe he even had a heart to heart this morning with TT/Murphy and he is defensive about his past successes, because he was put on notice about the organizations expectations.

I still think TT/Murphy had to have been upset with the Seattle playoff blowup, and have to see that the team has been sliding ever since.

The longer this goes, the more I think that was the stick in the bicycle tire.

[Rutnstrut]

The longer this goes, the more I think that was the stick in the bicycle tire.

The thing is even though stubby totally fucked the pooch in that game. If he was any good at all, he should have shook that off and got back on the horse.

[Smidgeon]

For me, it was my coffee!

Makes me think the pressure has gotten to him somewhat. Maybe he even had a heart to heart this morning with TT/Murphy and he is defensive about his past successes, because he was put on notice about the organizations expectations.

I still think TT/Murphy had to have been upset with the Seattle playoff blowup, and have to see that the team has been sliding ever since.

Trying to respond to Rodgers public comments about teammates fearing losing jobs without airing dirty laundry in public? If so, that's always an awkward line to try to walk. Would have been better to not say anything or to directly say "Aaron needs to worry about his job, I'll worry about everyone else's".

[pbmax]

The thing is even though stubby totally fucked the pooch in that game. If he was any good at all, he should have shook that off and got back on the horse.

Sure. But he was in the middle of changing horses. And after the fall, he then handed the new horse over to a different coordinator. That coordinator's best hand tore his ACL.

So for one full year, the lessons of the Seattle game were lost as they tried to unpack the wreckage of the 2015 offense.

To add insult to injury, they decided the injuries were the problem, not noticing the QB was broken too.

[red]

don't even get me started on the seattle game. i have plenty of posts on this board talking about how his fat ass should have been fired in the locker room right after that game.

to have such a chickenshit ball less end to that game by the coaching staff is unacceptable, and a massive failure. the worst part is, he didn't learn from that massive mistake and he still takes his foot off the gas in games

in 40 years, i will not remember fat mike as a super bowl winner, i will think of him as a guy who pissed a super bowl and a dynasty under a-rod away

[red]

not to mention the 15-1 debacle where we sat the starters the last game of the regular season, meaning by the time they played against the giants, they hadn't played football in 2 full weeks.

we came out flat, and were one and done

maybe this is the start of fat mike thinking his guys didn't need game time to be game ready (like the preseasons have become)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Finding some huge blunder in the rostering of RBs at the start of the season is simply hindsight analysis.

"huge blunder" is high bar, grasshopper

they made a mistake on Starks. As to whether it was reasonably foreseeable, we'll must have to agree to disagree without being agreeable.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Before this season, I had a vague realization that some positions on offense and defense were more important than others. This season has driven home that distinction. Although it took defensive coordinators a few games to scheme the Packers' loss of Shields, it's been driven home the last 5 weeks. It's also shown me how much of an impact Matthews had on the pass defense in general, and the pass rush in particular. His loss has stunted Perry and Jones and left us with no pass rush if we're not rushing 5 or more. The loss of Shields, who could be put on an island, has left someone open nearly every play, usually wide open. Every 3rd down, no matter the distance needed, our pass rush goes nowhere, and someone is open past the sticks. This has allowed average to poor offensive teams like the Colts to score over 30 points, and good offensive teams, like the Falcons and Titans, to score almost at will.

We focus a lot on the offense in this forum, and that is truly McCarthy's domain. We still don't see the dominant offense that we had pre-2014. My feeling is that we will never see it due to a combination of age, injury, coaching stubbornness, and defensive advances. I don't think the drop-off in offense makes much difference in the big picture of wins and losses if your pass defense can't get you off the field.

I believe Cliff Christl said that the difference between all teams in the league were the number of plus players (game changers and players that made others better) that each team had. During that 2010 season, we had Woodson, Matthews, Collins, and possibly Raji on defense. On offense we had Rodgers (probably a double plus) and maybe Jennings and Finley. We lost only Finley for an appreciable amount of time.

This year, at the beginning of the season, we had Shields, Matthews, and possibly Daniels on defense. On offense, we had Rodgers (not a double plus anymore) and Lacy. The only plus players we're playing with are Daniels and a fading Rodgers.

I agree with you that this season is a lot different than 2010 for impact of injuries. If it's true that plus players are the difference between teams in this league, we're really going to struggle to make 8-8 with this roster.Great post. I was thinking earlier today that we lack difference makers on our team, compared to others. Even if all the guys you mentioned were healthy, we can't measure up to teams like New England, Seattle, Arizona, Atlanta, and a bunch more, including Dallas. We have severely overrated the talent on this team.

[woodbuck27]

Before this season, I had a vague realization that some positions on offense and defense were more important than others. This season has driven home that distinction. Although it took defensive coordinators a few games to scheme the Packers' loss of Shields, it's been driven home the last 5 weeks. It's also shown me how much of an impact Matthews had on the pass defense in general, and the pass rush in particular. His loss has stunted Perry and Jones and left us with no pass rush if we're not rushing 5 or more. The loss of Shields, who could be put on an island, has left someone open nearly every play, usually wide open. Every 3rd down, no matter the distance needed, our pass rush goes nowhere, and someone is open past the sticks. This has allowed average to poor offensive teams like the Colts to score over 30 points, and good offensive teams, like the Falcons and Titans, to score almost at will.

We focus a lot on the offense in this forum, and that is truly McCarthy's domain. We still don't see the dominant offense that we had pre-2014. My feeling is that we will never see it due to a combination of age, injury, coaching stubbornness, and defensive advances. I don't think the drop-off in offense makes much difference in the big picture of wins and losses if your pass defense can't get you off the field.

I believe Cliff Christl said that the difference between all teams in the league were the number of plus players (game changers and players that made others better) that each team had. During that 2010 season, we had Woodson, Matthews, Collins, and possibly Raji on defense. On offense we had Rodgers (probably a double plus) and maybe Jennings and Finley. We lost only Finley for an appreciable amount of time.

This year, at the beginning of the season, we had Shields, Matthews, and possibly Daniels on defense. On offense, we had Rodgers (not a double plus anymore) and Lacy. The only plus players we're playing with are Daniels and a fading Rodgers.

I agree with you that this season is a lot different than 2010 for impact of injuries. If it's true that plus players are the difference between teams in this league, we're really going to struggle to make 8-8 with this roster.

An excellent a damning post. The facts really do hurt.

Repped

[beveaux1]

Great post. I was thinking earlier today that we lack difference makers on our team, compared to others. Even if all the guys you mentioned were healthy, we can't measure up to teams like New England, Seattle, Arizona, Atlanta, and a bunch more, including Dallas. We have severely overrated the talent on this team.

In truth, our coaches expect that young players will advance to become a plus player. Based upon the end of last year and the first couple of games this year, I thought Perry was ready to advance. I also felt that Jones would become a presence. On offense, only Adams and Montgomery has shown any growth, though not to the point that they would be a difference maker. Bakh is certainly better and has begun to justify his contract, but again, not a difference maker.

When one player depends on another player to shine ( Perry, Jones), I don't think they will ever be a plus player, but could be a contributor. Injury has robbed this team of almost any chance for the playoffs. With the high expectations of the fans, it may cost our head coach his job.

[texaspackerbacker]

A lot of times, threads like this are over-reactions to short term shit and generally not justified. This time it's different. McCarthy is either stupidly stubborn or stubbornly stupid - take your pick. The bland play calling, the run first mania, the tendency to take the ball and the initiative away from Aaron Rodgers, all that crap has been there for several seasons now if not forever. McCarthy, however, got away with it for a long time - failing to maximize things, but thanks to superb play from Aaron Rodgers, doing a lot of winning anyway. This year, I will grudgingly admit Rodgers has been down very very very slightly. The major factor, though, is that our pass receivers simply are not fast enough/talented enough/whatever to beat man coverage, and word has gotten around about that among D Coordinators. Even teams that prefer zone are going man on the Packers with disgusting success.

The other and probably even more blameworthy person is Ted Thompson. It's becomes disgustingly obvious with every non-Packer game I see how other GMs have put together much more talented teams (other than Aaron Rodgers, of course). Thompson's whole reputation as a GM derives from having Aaron Rodgers playing for him. Other than Rodgers, Thompson has failed miserably to maximize things - and it can't just be explained away by drafting so low.

Do NOT just fire the whole staff, though. Last Sunday's game was a pretty sorry example, but the overall good defensive performance of the Packers has a LOT to do with Capers' scheming. The D personnel Ted Thompson has provided him falls way short of the success the Packers have had. Without Capers' schemes and compensation, our D would be perfectly horrible.

I am still optimistic that the Packers will snap out of the funk, win the division, and go far in the playoffs. If that happens, however, it would be a damn shame if it resulted in saving McCarthy's job - or Thompson's for that matter.

[Patler]

"huge blunder" is high bar, grasshopper

they made a mistake on Starks. As to whether it was reasonably foreseeable, we'll must have to agree to disagree without being agreeable.




I didn't set the bar there, I have been following up on a comment early in this thread that set the standard. Several others quoted it in the discussion of running backs, and I have been questioning those who agreed with the original comment. The original standard was set by King Friday in this post:


The RB situation this season is ENTIRELY on Thompson. That is an enormous blunder for the GM of a professional football team.

Do you want to quibble over the differences in King Friday's use of "enormous blunder" and my later use of "huge blunder"?

It just seems to me that a veteran back who had 993 total yards (148/601 rushing, 43/392 receiving) as the reserve running back in 2015 shouldn't be thrown out in favor of the run of the mill backs they had in camp.

Aren't you deciding it was a mistake simply because in the first four games of this season he had 24 carries for 42 yards? That is an awful small sample, and clearly is a hindsight evaluation.

I thought Starks looked pretty good on his TD on Sunday, he waited for the opening and accelerated through the hole straight for the goal line. I thought he also looked OK on several of his carries, he ran hard and picked up what was there. He might not be the quickest back in the league, but I thought on Sunday he looked like the back we saw in 2015 and the five seasons before that.

If he is the same back he has been most of his career (and I'm not saying that he is) can we agree that it was not a "blunder" or "mistake" to have kept him? Based just on how he played on Sunday (running, receiving and pass protecting) do you think it was a mistake to keep him rather than someone else?

[mmmdk]

Firing McCarthy + other coaches + TT is better than letting Rodgers rot for his last productive years with no championship in sight. Another option could be trading Rodgers and "believing" in Stubby & co. I don't like the latter at all. Keeping everything at the Green Bay status quo and fire Capers is probably what will happen. Truly sad and terrible mismanagement for a quater of a century with two HOF QBs. Just horrible. :sad:

[call_me_ishmael]

I would personally be shocked if they move on from the HC, but I would not be shocked if several of the high priced players like Sam Shields, TJ Lang, Julius Peppers, and Eddie Lacy are not back. Boy, this is such a young team. Clay isn't going anywhere despite not being on the field much. I can't imagine then cutting Jordy or Randall Cobb.

[Pugger]

Before this season, I had a vague realization that some positions on offense and defense were more important than others. This season has driven home that distinction. Although it took defensive coordinators a few games to scheme the Packers' loss of Shields, it's been driven home the last 5 weeks. It's also shown me how much of an impact Matthews had on the pass defense in general, and the pass rush in particular. His loss has stunted Perry and Jones and left us with no pass rush if we're not rushing 5 or more. The loss of Shields, who could be put on an island, has left someone open nearly every play, usually wide open. Every 3rd down, no matter the distance needed, our pass rush goes nowhere, and someone is open past the sticks. This has allowed average to poor offensive teams like the Colts to score over 30 points, and good offensive teams, like the Falcons and Titans, to score almost at will.

We focus a lot on the offense in this forum, and that is truly McCarthy's domain. We still don't see the dominant offense that we had pre-2014. My feeling is that we will never see it due to a combination of age, injury, coaching stubbornness, and defensive advances. I don't think the drop-off in offense makes much difference in the big picture of wins and losses if your pass defense can't get you off the field.

I believe Cliff Christl said that the difference between all teams in the league were the number of plus players (game changers and players that made others better) that each team had. During that 2010 season, we had Woodson, Matthews, Collins, and possibly Raji on defense. On offense we had Rodgers (probably a double plus) and maybe Jennings and Finley. We lost only Finley for an appreciable amount of time.

This year, at the beginning of the season, we had Shields, Matthews, and possibly Daniels on defense. On offense, we had Rodgers (not a double plus anymore) and Lacy. The only plus players we're playing with are Daniels and a fading Rodgers.

I agree with you that this season is a lot different than 2010 for impact of injuries. If it's true that plus players are the difference between teams in this league, we're really going to struggle to make 8-8 with this roster.

This!

Is Rodgers fading or is his WR corps unable to get open? Yes, some of his passes are off the mark but every QB has crappy throws. But if AR has to hold onto the ball forever waiting for someone to get open that can screw everything up IMO.

[Pugger]

So is there sentiment here that it's MM who's not coaching up the talent, or is it Ted who's not giving MM enough talent, or is it all just getting stale, like an old marriage in which the combatants - er, partners - end up abusing one another behind each other's back all the time?

And if you did ditch MM, or MM and Ted, would a new coach really have any authority over Rodgers, if any needed to be exercised?

What to do, what to do? Why don't they just get their shit together and go 10-6 then get on a run and win the SB so we don't have to have these agonizing conversations?

Wh

When things were going south Ted brought in a new HC (McCarthy) and in his second season at the helm Favre was back in the MVP discussion so why wouldn't Rodgers benefit from a fresh POV?

[Pugger]

I AM A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL NFL COACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Yes, he is. You don't have the best regular season winning percentage just this side of BB, get your team into the playoffs seasons 8 out of 9 seasons and win a SB by being lousy. I hate to break it to you but he will go down as one of the best HCs in our franchise's history. However. Things aren't so rosy now. His team is circling the drain and he seems to not have any answers. Nothing lasts forever. I agree with the majority - it is time for a change. But to say he hasn't been successful is being very disingenuous.

[pbmax]

snip
letting Rodgers rot for his last productive years with no championship in sight


The number of new admins who won a Super Bowl in their first three years is vanishingly small. The far more likely result is continued mediocrity. And the same odds for a Super Bowl revival apply to falling into the toilet.

The idea that change brings improvement is dumb. The greatest probability is that it stays the same or gets worse.

[Carolina_Packer]

This!

Is Rodgers fading or is his WR corps unable to get open? Yes, some of his passes are off the mark but every QB has crappy throws. But if AR has to hold onto the ball forever waiting for someone to get open that can screw everything up IMO.

It would be interesting to know on how many drop-backs since the start of the slide last season has A-Rod been able to run a clean play where he was able to do what the play was designed to do because he had a clean pocket AND his primary or secondary read got the right separation to make Rodgers comfortable enough to pull the trigger.

Seems like a lot of scramble drill, sand lot type plays because he has to hold the ball waiting for something else to develop.

[Carolina_Packer]

I still think TT/Murphy had to have been upset with the Seattle playoff blowup, and have to see that the team has been sliding ever since.

I agree that they couldn't have been happy with that playoff loss, but when the team went 6-0 to start 2015, there weren't many signs of a hangover. The offense had just come off of two good games in week 2 vs. Seattle and week 3 vs. KC, then they went on the road to San Fran in week 4 and had a meh offensive effort. Typically, in the last few years you'd see them come back home after that and rev up the offense, but in game 5, they played a lackluster game vs. the Rams who picked off Rodgers twice which had not been done at Lambeau since 2012. Then the next week, they had a so-so offensive game vs. the Super Chargers. I think that three game stretch was the beginning of the struggles. Then they had a bye and came off the bye to face the Broncos, and Panthers, and the rest of the season is history.

I still think injuries at WR had as much to do with the offenses struggles, as much as Lacy's weight struggles, which led to the decline in the run game, allowing defenses to go back to committing more personnel to pass coverage. There were no plug and play WR's to make up for the losses at WR whether season-ending, or nagging. Injuries always expose the quality of a team's depth.

[beveaux1]

Yes, he is. You don't have the best regular season winning percentage just this side of BB, get your team into the playoffs seasons 8 out of 9 seasons and win a SB by being lousy. I hate to break it to you but he will go down as one of the best HCs in our franchise's history. However. Things aren't so rosy now. His team is circling the drain and he seems to not have any answers. Nothing lasts forever. I agree with the majority - it is time for a change. But to say he hasn't been successful is being very disingenuous.

He definitely has been a highly successful coach. During this same period, Sean Payton has had a franchise QB with remarkable similarity to Rodgers. Since 2009, the season that they won the SB, the Saints have had 3 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, and they have the same record we have this year. We, on the other hand, have not had a single losing record. I understand that Payton was suspended for one of the losing years, but he has not been nearly as successful as McCarthy overall.

I also understand that factors outside of his control may have influenced his record. The Saints do not have the GM and front office staff that the Packers are blessed with. Also, Brees has not shown the slippage that Rodgers appears to be experiencing in the past 2 years.

We're very mindful of the success of Belichik and Brady, but there are other franchises that compare very favorably to us that do not have the same success.

[woodbuck27]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2675887-chris-simms-nfl-power-rankings-ahead-of-week-11/page/12\

Chris Simms' NFL Power Rankings Ahead of Week 11

By Chris Simms , NFL Lead Analyst

Nov 14, 2016

22. Green Bay Packers

Mike McCarthy coaches a roster that's never infused with veteran free-agent talent.

So it seems unfair that he'll be the one to lose his job over Green Bay's scoring run. But when you coach Aaron Rodgers and you lose to the Tennessee Titans, something's gotta give.

Again, McCarthy's playbook regressed to Rodgers throwing fast, hard and accurately. No receivers earned significant separation. No running backs got anything resembling a ground game going.

[VegasPackFan]

not to mention the 15-1 debacle where we sat the starters the last game of the regular season, meaning by the time they played against the giants, they hadn't played football in 2 full weeks.

we came out flat, and were one and done

THIS.

[King Friday]

How was the running back situation such a blunder? Eddie Lacy + an experienced backup who had nearly 1000 yards in 2015. Lacy was running as well as he ever had until he was injured.

Where was this monumental blunder that some of you are talking about????

1. Lacy was a question mark coming into camp this season. Sure, when healthy and not fat, he's a very good RB. However, we know all about the weight concerns, and his running style certainly opens him up to a greater chance of injury. There was very little reason to expect he was going to give you 16 full games of action at 100% in 2016...so you HAD to have a contingency plan.

2. Starks is a capable backup...but he's also 30 years old. Again, you HAD to expect he would not be able to assume the load as a full-time back if Lacy went down for an extended time either due to injury or food consumption.

3. The Packers had NOTHING behind these two. NOTHING. They were basically rolling the dice that Lacy would be able to start 13 or 14 games and have Starks fill in occasionally when Lacy was out for a short period of time. In essence, this is like expecting a $200,000 401k account to be able to last out a 15+ year retirement. It COULD happen...but the chances aren't good.

4. We got rid of Sitton...with depleted OL depth, even more reason to keep extra ammunition at RB instead of WR.

I agree that the first two guys on the roster are OK...however, no NFL team should only be 2 guys deep on the depth chart at RB. That is basically what the Packers were...otherwise Ty Montgomery wouldn't be playing RB.

[pbmax]

1. Lacy was a question mark coming into camp this season. Sure, when healthy and not fat, he's a very good RB. However, we know all about the weight concerns, and his running style certainly opens him up to a greater chance of injury. There was very little reason to expect he was going to give you 16 full games of action at 100% in 2016...so you HAD to have a contingency plan.

2. Starks is a capable backup...but he's also 30 years old. Again, you HAD to expect he would not be able to assume the load as a full-time back if Lacy went down for an extended time either due to injury or food consumption.

3. The Packers had NOTHING behind these two. NOTHING. They were basically rolling the dice that Lacy would be able to start 13 or 14 games and have Starks fill in occasionally when Lacy was out for a short period of time. In essence, this is like expecting a $200,000 401k account to be able to last out a 15+ year retirement. It COULD happen...but the chances aren't good.

I would buy this argument more if it didn't work last year. Even Fat Lacy was able to complete the season. It was not unrealistic to expect him to do it again. He had a very good offseason. Starks injured his knee, he didn't break a hip getting the paper.

The Packers didn't just keep 2 RBs. They also have a FB, which many teams don't have.

They had Cobb and Monty, who they planned on getting a lot of reps. So usage rate of RBs would be lower this year.

They decided the two guys who hung around last year were not among the 53 best.


4. We got rid of Sitton...with depleted OL depth, even more reason to keep extra ammunition at RB instead of WR.

I think Sitton leaving makes a case for another OL, not another RB. Maybe another QB.

But the biggest error here is that you think foresight would save the team from this problem. Please tell me, if they had a third RB on the roster, what would the secondary look like right now?

They lost the top three guys. When Rollins came back, they started, then benched him for Goodson. Goodson would not be on the roster if there was a 3 RB at the start of the season.

They had six WR on the team last year and they still had to sign James Jones last minute to make a go of it. And it didn't work. Sometimes, well made plans fail. Its a mistake to assume failure means your process is bad. Nothing is certain.

[pbmax]

Or even if Goodson still squeaks by, do you have Kentrell Brice to play safety after Burnett and Hyde are hurt? If you dump Abby or Janis from the WR corp, are special teams worse?

If one position being short of above replacement level players is the mark of mismanagement, every football team would change their GM every third year.

[pbmax]

Not to mention Jackson's presence on the PS. Do you expect the Packers to pay more for the 3rd string RB?

[Rutnstrut]

PB, you keep repeating how Jones did nothing last year. He saved their ass early in the season. Without him there would have been no strong start. Without the 6-0 start last year they never would have made the playoffs due to their skid the second half of the season. You seem very reluctant to give credit where it's due.

[pbmax]

PB, you keep repeating how Jones did nothing last year. He saved their ass early in the season. Without him there would have been no strong start. Without the 6-0 start last year they never would have made the playoffs due to their skid the second half of the season. You seem very reluctant to give credit where it's due.

Was the Packers offense last year successful or not? I am saying even after signing Jones to replace Jordy, they could not keep the offense at a high level. That point is in service to the larger point that if fate decrees a position will be decimated, there are very few things that can be done in season to save it no matter the backups available. Even at a well stocked position like WR.

Healthy Jones was great. The Packers offense as a whole, over the entire season, was not. I suspect, but of course cannot prove, that he would have suffered when teams changed the way they played pass D even if healthy. But that is simply speculation.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000741282/article/aaron-rodgers-criticism-of-mccarthy-ridiculous

Aaron Rodgers: Criticism of McCarthy ' ridiculous '.

I filed this under:

I've got your ass if your covering mine. :-)

[Pugger]

PB, you keep repeating how Jones did nothing last year. He saved their ass early in the season. Without him there would have been no strong start. Without the 6-0 start last year they never would have made the playoffs due to their skid the second half of the season. You seem very reluctant to give credit where it's due.

True, but you can't ignore the fact Jones disappeared in the second half of last season. Defenses quickly figured out you don't have to double him so they doubled up elsewhere.

[pbmax]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000741282/article/aaron-rodgers-criticism-of-mccarthy-ridiculous

Aaron Rodgers: Criticism of McCarthy ' ridiculous '.

I filed this under:

I've got your ass if your covering mine. :-)

He was accused by Pro Football Talk of criticizing McCarthy publicly. They read his critical comments about the play of the team as implicating at McCarthy.

Florio's evidence was that McCarthy was with the 49ers when they did not draft him.

The comments were much easier to read as knocking the players (and his own) performance.

[Fritz]

Pete Daughter's article that the Packers simply lack playmakers is just true.

[King Friday]

If one position being short of above replacement level players is the mark of mismanagement, every football team would change their GM every third year.

Wrong.

Plenty of teams go through multiple injuries at RB during a season. Ours is the only one who turns to a WR as the #3 RB, because the cupboard is BARE, BARE, BARE. It is embarrassing. You don't need a quality starting RB in the #3 spot...but you DO need one who is at least capable of looking like an NFL talent.

[pbmax]

Wrong.

Plenty of teams go through multiple injuries at RB during a season. Ours is the only one who turns to a WR as the #3 RB, because the cupboard is BARE, BARE, BARE. It is embarrassing. You don't need a quality starting RB in the #3 spot...but you DO need one who is at least capable of looking like an NFL talent.

Don Jackson was that guy. I suspect, but have not confirmed, that his 1 game delay in getting promoted was injury related. As in, they had to decide who was going to stay on the roster versus IR before they were going to have a slot open without dropping someone they liked.

As Patler said, running a risk one week at one position is pretty common.

[Patler]

I still think Montgomery can take significant snaps at running back.

Some of the things said about him before the draft and in college.



"Built like a full-grown man. Body type resembles that of a running back with well-defined, muscular legs."

"Top athlete when healthy. Well-built with long arms, broad shoulders and a thick lower half."

"Powerful, thick build at 6-foot, 220 pounds."

"Some draft analysts have suggested Montgomery take up running back full time."

"Montgomery’s goal is to separate himself from that group, and he may be best suited to do it while used as a runner with a slight increase in carries. If he re-gains the weight he lost after the combine and returns to about 220 pounds, Montgomery would become a legitimate threat as an inside runner after already showing a willingness to take the abuse. Over four seasons at Stanford he totaled 344 rushing yards, averaging 8.6 per carry."

Dragging tacklers is nothing new for him, his father said. "He always had a work ethic. He was taught to move the pile. When he was a running back (in high school), it used to take four or five guys to bring him down."


"That's because, at 6-foot-2, with 215 pounds of mostly muscle, he's a running back in both stature and inclination."

"He's got the mentality that he's got to go forward like nobody can tackle him," Stanford receivers/quarterbacks coach Mike Sanford said. "When he touches the ball, that's what he's thinking."

"When other coaches visit a Cardinal practice, they can't believe how big and strong Montgomery is, Sanford said. "They see him on tape and see that he's fast and agile and can get in and out of breaks and can track the deep ball - basically the full skill set of a receiver. Then they see his lower half; it's pretty impressive. He can run through a lot of things."

[denverYooper]

I still think Montgomery can take significant snaps at running back.

Some of the things said about him before the draft and in college.

It also seems like the offense moves the ball more consistently when he's in the game. He's been very productive with a mix of runs and short passes, generally producing around 100 yards when he gets 15-20 targets + touches.

[pbmax]

It also seems like the offense moves the ball more consistently when he's in the game. He's been very productive with a mix of runs and short passes, generally producing around 100 yards when he gets 15-20 targets + touches.

They should be able to screen the hell out of pressure and man coverage defense. The Badgers even do this.

I hope it becomes a larger part of the package. Starks has a couple already, Monty might be even more dangerous.

[Zool]

Wouldn't the depth chart at the start of the pre-season have been Lacy, Starks, Crockett, Jackson?

[Pugger]

Wouldn't the depth chart at the start of the pre-season have been Lacy, Starks, Crockett, Jackson?

Didn't we have 2 other RBs at the start of training camp this past summer?

[pbmax]

Didn't we have 2 other RBs at the start of training camp this past summer?

John Crockett, Brandon Burks and Brandon Ross. Ross was cut when they went to 53 players. Burks was released when they signed Jhurell Presley.

Crockett went to IR on Aug 30, so he was gone before Burks and Ross.

[pbmax]

If this meaningless speculation should actually happen, I will be leaving all of you and go back to following the Browns.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/11/22/would-jim-harbaugh-jump-to-the-packers/


Whether he does depends on whether a team can present him with an offer he can’t refuse. Which would imply that there must be an opportunity to win. Which would imply that there would be on the roster the most important ingredient for contention: A franchise quarterback.

There’s one team with a franchise quarterback that may be looking for a new coach in six weeks or so. If the Packers make a change, and if the Packers decide to pursue Harbaugh, would he be interested?

[denverYooper]

Florio is trolling Packers fans.

[pbmax]

Florio is trolling Packers fans.

He's gone from basking in his non-knowledge of the inner workings of a publicly owned team to just delighting is speculating about its implosion.

[call_me_ishmael]

Harbaugh is a hard ass. I'd love it but I cannot imagine someone with an ego the size of Aaron's getting a long with him. Which is sad because he is probably the best QB whisperer around. Think of the millions he made Andy Luck and Colin Kap.

[Bretsky]

Pete Daughter's article that the Packers simply lack playmakers is just true.


SO TRUE

[call_me_ishmael]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/11/23/packers-president-disappointed-but-not-ready-to-fire-people/

This is obvious. You don't fire people that have been tremendously successful. That's reactionary. What extremely talented coach/GM would come in when the previous guy was very successful over a long period of time and got canned?

[pbmax]

Pete Daughter's article that the Packers simply lack playmakers is just true.







SO TRUE

McCarthy and Rodgers have done more with less on offense. Hard to judge a talent drain on defense when 4 of the youngest talents have missed significant time this year due to injuries.

Coaches have to do better with what they have until health arrives.

[woodbuck27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/11/23/packers-president-disappointed-but-not-ready-to-fire-people/

This is obvious. You don't fire people that have been tremendously successful. That's reactionary. What extremely talented coach/GM would come in when the previous guy was very successful over a long period of time and got canned?

https://comedytravelwriting.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/drowning-man.jpg

[call_me_ishmael]

Coach Mac called one heck of a game tonight.

[red]

he did, where has it been the last 12 months though?

[pbmax]

I'm telling you that when you hit some big plays, the entire outlook of the offense changes.

Though in this game they actually got the short passing game going first, oddly enough.

[Pugger]

I'm telling you that when you hit some big plays, the entire outlook of the offense changes.

Though in this game they actually got the short passing game going first, oddly enough.

Its about damn time. When we do this we are tough to beat. When AR is holding onto the ball forever things go south.

[texaspackerbacker]

McCarthy put the ball in Aaron Rodgers' hands tonight. For the most part, he abandoned the run-first mentality. That was the major play calling factor in winning. When we had the ball and were ahead by 11 in the fourth quarter, he didn't just go into a shell and sit on the ball like he has done so many times in the past. I think the guy knows his job is in jeopardy and shaped up a little bit.

In addition to McCarthy, our receivers suddenly started beating coverage like they haven't done all year. That and our O Line came through in pass blocking at least. All that and our much maligned D was not nearly as bad as it has been.

Quick passes were part of it, but an integral part of the Packers offense is what some in here complain about: scrambling around and hitting receivers after 6 or 8 or 10 seconds.

[woodbuck27]

McCarthy put the ball in Aaron Rodgers' hands tonight. For the most part, he abandoned the run-first mentality. That was the major play calling factor in winning. When we had the ball and were ahead by 11 in the fourth quarter, he didn't just go into a shell and sit on the ball like he has done so many times in the past. I think the guy knows his job is in jeopardy and shaped up a little bit.

In addition to McCarthy, our receivers suddenly started beating coverage like they haven't done all year. That and our O Line came through in pass blocking at least. All that and our much maligned D was not nearly as bad as it has been.

Quick passes were part of it, but an integral part of the Packers offense is what some in here complain about: scrambling around and hitting receivers after 6 or 8 or 10 seconds.

MM's job is secure after this season.

We did see a totally different offense last night. That was ARods game to win !

[Fritz]

Quick passes were huge. Huge. It got the offense off the Schneid in the first half. Gruden, simplistic as he can be, commented on this accurately. Though I could've done without all the slathering over Rodgers's nuts that he did.

[Maxie the Taxi]

In the 12/12/16 issue of Sports Illustrated I ran across this:


McCarthy is 8-7 in the postseason, with five of those losses coming on the final play.

Of all the differences I have with Stubby this is the one I can't get past. It's the one that hurts the most. I get mad just thinking about those five games. I'm not necessarily saying Stubs deserves to be fired for it, but damn! This shit is old and getting older. I have my own ideas as to why these games boiled down to the last play, but it'd be beating a dead horse.

Is there another coach in the NFL with the same last play losing streak?

[gbgary]

In the 12/12/16 issue of Sports Illustrated I ran across this:

McCarthy is 8-7 in the postseason, with five of those losses coming on the final play.

wow! didn't realize that (never clicked in my mind).

[Cobra Kai]

In the 12/12/16 issue of Sports Illustrated I ran across this:


Of all the differences I have with Stubby this is the one I can't get past. It's the one that hurts the most. I get mad just thinking about those five games. I'm not necessarily saying Stubs deserves to be fired for it, but damn! This shit is old and getting older. I have my own ideas as to why these games boiled down to the last play, but it'd be beating a dead horse.

Is there another coach in the NFL with the same last play losing streak?

I don't know about the streak thing but he is a disciple of Marty Schottenheimer. That should explain some of the "bad luck" in the playoffs...

[pbmax]

I don't know about the streak thing but he is a disciple of Marty Schottenheimer. That should explain some of the "bad luck" in the playoffs...

There is a lot of Marty in M3 in late game situations. All of a sudden there is a right way and wrong way to do things, rather than a proficient way.

He spends too much energy on burning clock rather than first downs. The only saving grace occurs when he fears an opponent can take his defense, he will not call off the dogs (passing) late. He did that just a few games ago while the defense was in the middle of its getting torched streak.

Part of the Seattle game problem was that he thought his D had their O's number. Needed to be far more fearful of them springing big plays.

[pbmax]

This is what a coach who must be fired looks like:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czlh2S9XUAAxtxr.jpg:large

[hoosier]

Remarkable how quickly things can turn. I don't believe I have a prior post in this thread but I'm not exactly clean on this topic either.

[RashanGary]

McCarthy is 34th all time NFL coach for wins. 4 years could break top 20, 8 years could be top 10. I'd like to keep him around. Make him a Packer legend. I really like MM

[Fritz]

Ah, come on. If the Bears pull the upset this weekend, we'll all be piling on in this thread.

[Bretsky]

Ah, come on. If the Bears pull the upset this weekend, we'll all be piling on in this thread.

For the ninetieth time this month I'd like to point out again...MM has did a good job with the talent given to him....with the talent given to him.
If the season goes array....there is only one spot to point

[Fritz]

Well, my larger point is simply that fans are fickle. As I've said elsewhere, it'll be a "fire somebody" thread. Some will say MM, some will say, like you, that it should be Thompson, some will say Capers, some will say all of the above. It's just funny how three weeks ago we all - me included - thought the season was lost, and that it pointed to a larger malaise. Now suddenly it's all good. Though it sounds like you want Ted gone, no matter what.

[Tony Oday]

I still think MM should be fired. How is Montgomery not getting the rock more? No deep balls on single high saftey, used to be bread and butter. Not a fan of his collapse mentality in clutch situations.

[Pugger]

I still think MM should be fired. How is Montgomery not getting the rock more? No deep balls on single high saftey, used to be bread and butter. Not a fan of his collapse mentality in clutch situations.

I firmly believe Ty is not getting more carries because of his sickle cell trait.

Not that many weeks ago I was in favor of replacing MM but not now. He kept this locker room together when things were going south and IMO that is a big deal.

[Patler]

For the ninetieth time this month I'd like to point out again...MM has did a good job with the talent given to him....with the talent given to him.
If the season goes array....there is only one spot to point

So, what, nothing short of a Super Bowl victory is good enough?

There was a time when you said if the Packers ever won a Super Bowl under TT you would revise your opinion of him and hold him in similar regard as you did Wolf, who also won just one. As I recall, you did accept TT after 2010 .... for about one season.

One of the articles someone linked recently, which was about a former player, coach, front office person or the like, hit the nail on the head. Packer fans are friendly, warm and courteous, but have an odd sense of entitlement.

Most sports fans understand that sometimes seasons go bad, and that Championship seasons are uncommon. They evaluate their coaches, GMs etc. by reasonable standards of overall effectiveness and competitiveness. Packer fans, on the other hand, seem to think they are entitled to Super Bowl wins, and someone has failed and should be replaced if that does not happen.

Obviously the ultimate goal is a Super Bowl win, and when that does not happen over an extended period evaluations should be made. I think in assessing blame there are questions to ask:

If the Packers had won the Super Bowl in 2014, would you be calling for anyone's head regardless of what the final outcome is this year? I wouldn't, and I suspect you wouldn't either.

What if they had made it to the Super Bowl in 2014, but lost? For me the answer remains, no, but it is less certain without knowing how the game would have been lost.

So then I look at the 2014 NFCCG. Did they lose that game because of a lack of talent? I say, no. They dominated most of that game, not unlike the game this past Sunday. In my opinion, that game was lost because of coaching decisions and coaching effectiveness, not because of talent deficiency.

Then I look at the other huge playoff disappointments, and I don't see the losses occurring from a lack of talent, but to the extent not from fate or bad luck, from coaching decisions and/or coaching effectiveness. I see these as very similar to Holmgren's SB loss with the Packers. That game wasn't lost because of talent deficiencies either.

With all of that said, if I am at the point of thinking a change is needed, the first hot seat is firmly beneath the coaching staff because of the manners in which playoff departures have occurred.

Getting back to this season, if they win out the remaining games, no one should be in jeopardy. I think TT has assembled some good young talent and depth, even though he may not have found a budding super star recently. If they win out, MM will have salvaged a sinking ship that could have plunged to the depths, and he will deserve to stay. However, his struggles the last two seasons coupled with his playoff performances overall would have him on a somewhat short leash for me.

Anything less than 3-0 would have MM's tenure under review. A loss to the Bears would be big in my decision making. Going 1-1 against the Vikings and Lions, not so much.

[run pMc]

I think he's done enough to keep his job. He has his brain farts but IMO he's a good coach...the team could do a LOT worse, and I'm not sure who's out there who could do better. Josh McDaniels? Please. Not after his Denver stint.

[Fritz]

So, what, nothing short of a Super Bowl victory is good enough?

There was a time when you said if the Packers ever won a Super Bowl under TT you would revise your opinion of him and hold him in similar regard as you did Wolf, who also won just one. As I recall, you did accept TT after 2010 .... for about one season.

One of the articles someone linked recently, which was about a former player, coach, front office person or the like, hit the nail on the head. Packer fans are friendly, warm and courteous, but have an odd sense of entitlement.

Most sports fans understand that sometimes seasons go bad, and that Championship seasons are uncommon. They evaluate their coaches, GMs etc. by reasonable standards of overall effectiveness and competitiveness. Packer fans, on the other hand, seem to think they are entitled to Super Bowl wins, and someone has failed and should be replaced if that does not happen.

Obviously the ultimate goal is a Super Bowl win, and when that does not happen over an extended period evaluations should be made. I think in assessing blame there are questions to ask:

If the Packers had won the Super Bowl in 2014, would you be calling for anyone's head regardless of what the final outcome is this year? I wouldn't, and I suspect you wouldn't either.

What if they had made it to the Super Bowl in 2014, but lost? For me the answer remains, no, but it is less certain without knowing how the game would have been lost.

So then I look at the 2014 NFCCG. Did they lose that game because of a lack of talent? I say, no. They dominated most of that game, not unlike the game this past Sunday. In my opinion, that game was lost because of coaching decisions and coaching effectiveness, not because of talent deficiency.

Then I look at the other huge playoff disappointments, and I don't see the losses occurring from a lack of talent, but to the extent not from fate or bad luck, from coaching decisions and/or coaching effectiveness. I see these as very similar to Holmgren's SB loss with the Packers. That game wasn't lost because of talent deficiencies either.

With all of that said, if I am at the point of thinking a change is needed, the first hot seat is firmly beneath the coaching staff because of the manners in which playoff departures have occurred.

Getting back to this season, if they win out the remaining games, no one should be in jeopardy. I think TT has assembled some good young talent and depth, even though he may not have found a budding super star recently. If they win out, MM will have salvaged a sinking ship that could have plunged to the depths, and he will deserve to stay. However, his struggles the last two seasons coupled with his playoff performances overall would have him on a somewhat short leash for me.

Anything less than 3-0 would have MM's tenure under review. A loss to the Bears would be big in my decision making. Going 1-1 against the Vikings and Lions, not so much.

I agree with what you've posted, except for the part in boldface type. I believe that fans are fans, and any fan base that had the level of success the Packer fanbase has experienced would be acting the same way Packer fans act. For example, because Detroit has been losing for so long, right now, a playoff appearance and one win in the playoffs would be acceptable to many Detroit fans. But, if next year they fail to go further than that, there will be complaints and calls for heads to roll. Packer fans are spoiled, but so would any fanbase be.

Except maybe Cleveland. If they went 8 - 8 two years running they might get a ticker tape parade.

[bobblehead]

The team might be able to lure an even better candidate to Green Bay, Josh McDaniels, by offering a $5M-plus annual salary and the GM title.

Replace two birds with one stone, as the saying goes.

Do we get to trade a bunch of picks for the right to tim tebow in that scenario??

[bobblehead]

LOL, I would be shocked if MM is fired this year. He'd need one more year of .500 play. Y'all know we had the best team in the league two years ago and it was only botched up by a PLAYER not following instructions, right?

Yes and No. If your coaching decisions for an entire half of football put that player in a position to lose the game....

MM has to learn to not take his foot off the gas and start counting possessions with an entire half to go. Its bad coaching. Players can't just turn it on again when the game gets close again. Plus if put them on their heels, that is when big plays happen.

[bobblehead]

I believe Cliff Christl said that the difference between all teams in the league were the number of plus players (game changers and players that made others better) that each team had. During that 2010 season, we had Woodson, Matthews, Collins, and possibly Raji on defense. On offense we had Rodgers (probably a double plus) and maybe Jennings and Finley. We lost only Finley for an appreciable amount of time.

This year, at the beginning of the season, we had Shields, Matthews, and possibly Daniels on defense. On offense, we had Rodgers (not a double plus anymore) and Lacy. The only plus players we're playing with are Daniels and a fading Rodgers.

I agree with you that this season is a lot different than 2010 for impact of injuries. If it's true that plus players are the difference between teams in this league, we're really going to struggle to make 8-8 with this roster.

Cliff was right and wrong. QB is and always will be the most important position. After that, Left Tackle and Pass rushers. After that, you can design around your talent. My personal favorite method for todays NFL is the Cowboys/Seahawks (before they paid Wilson) approach. Put together a dominant offensive line, control the clock, keep your D rested and keep your game managing QB in positions to excel (3rd and 3, or 2nd and 1).

Where cliff was wrong is that if you have gaping holes, no amount of 5 star talent can overcome it (think Erik Walden...read option). a cast of 4 star talent makes some 4 star guys look like 5 star talent (my opinion on Clay...who is 5 star at ILB, but 4 star at OLB). Guys like Bakteria look better when Sitton is bulldozing next to him. Your DB's look good when guys are getting to the QB. etc, etc.

[bobblehead]

Great post. I was thinking earlier today that we lack difference makers on our team, compared to others. Even if all the guys you mentioned were healthy, we can't measure up to teams like New England, Seattle, Arizona, Atlanta, and a bunch more, including Dallas. We have severely overrated the talent on this team.

I think many of us understand this talent. Remember, Stubby wouldn't bench bambi barnet for Bishop until he had no choice. Nobody knew how good Raji and Mathews would be at the start of 2010. Is Randall ready to make that leap (if healthy). How good might Clark be? Is Adams ready to break out now that Jordy is healthy? Can cook contribute yet? Is Spriggs the real deal at LG? As the time since this post has shown, things change...and fast. Since we aren't getting a new GM coach for a bit yet, I'm excited to see what TT does with the Peppers/Shields money. Might we see another dive into FA?

[bobblehead]

A lot of times, threads like this are over-reactions to short term shit and generally not justified. This time it's different. McCarthy is either stupidly stubborn or stubbornly stupid - take your pick. .

Considering the source, this is the most damning post in the history of internet!!

[pbmax]

Yes and No. If your coaching decisions for an entire half of football put that player in a position to lose the game....

MM has to learn to not take his foot off the gas and start counting possessions with an entire half to go. Its bad coaching. Players can't just turn it on again when the game gets close again. Plus if put them on their heels, that is when big plays happen.

I just don't get it. Its not a binary choice. You can waste clock AND get first downs. You don't need to lineup in goal line, 2 TE offense with a FB and WR,then just run into the teeth of the defense if they are going to get the ball back.

If you had Favre or Stafford back there, maybe I am worried about a pick. But Rodgers isn't going to throw one very often. You just need to remind him that a sack is better than a throw away. Just don't start circling and retreating before going down. Bail like Peyton Manning.

[hoosier]

Cliff was right and wrong. QB is and always will be the most important position. After that, Left Tackle and Pass rushers. After that, you can design around your talent. My personal favorite method for todays NFL is the Cowboys/Seahawks (before they paid Wilson) approach. Put together a dominant offensive line, control the clock, keep your D rested and keep your game managing QB in positions to excel (3rd and 3, or 2nd and 1).

Where cliff was wrong is that if you have gaping holes, no amount of 5 star talent can overcome it (think Erik Walden...read option). a cast of 4 star talent makes some 4 star guys look like 5 star talent (my opinion on Clay...who is 5 star at ILB, but 4 star at OLB). Guys like Bakteria look better when Sitton is bulldozing next to him. Your DB's look good when guys are getting to the QB. etc, etc.

If you have holes I bet 22 five-star players could make up for it. The 2010 team was even better than beveaux remembers, because he forgot about Tramon, who was with maybe one exception the best cornerback in football for the last two months of the season, and it wasn't because the pass rush on that team was anything close to irrepressible: they had CMIII, Raji and Jenkins, an occasional blitzing Woodson, and that was pretty much it.

[bobblehead]

Pete Daughter's article that the Packers simply lack playmakers is just true.

I love that term...playmakers. Show me a playmaker on a winning team that isn't surrounded by talent. What exactly is a playmaker? A guy who makes plays all by himself??...no such thing.

[mmmdk]

McCarthy will make Packers strong again. McCarthy will make Packers proud again. McCarthy will make Packers safe again. And McCarthy will make Packers great again.

[bobblehead]

For the ninetieth time this month I'd like to point out again...MM has did a good job with the talent given to him....with the talent given to him.
If the season goes array....there is only one spot to point

So you think he coached a good game against seattle in that monumental collapse? You think he did a good job leaving Erik Walden in long enough for Kapernick to run for 180 yards biting on the same play over and over? You think it was good early in his career when he practiced indoors because the weather outside made it hard to get quality reps in?

[bobblehead]

For the ninetieth time this month I'd like to point out again...MM has did a good job with the talent given to him....with the talent given to him.
If the season goes array....there is only one spot to point

You and I are dead opposite in our beliefs. I think TT provides a lot of talent. I think MM is an adequate coach. The fact that he has not learned to allow teams back in games that should be over has me ready to move on. I am a realist though. If we make the playoffs no way he is fired. If he loses 2 of 3 from here....probably not, but he will be on shaky ground.

[GBkrzygrl]

So, what, nothing short of a Super Bowl victory is good enough?

One of the articles someone linked recently, which was about a former player, coach, front office person or the like, hit the nail on the head. Packer fans are friendly, warm and courteous, but have an odd sense of entitlement.

In a sense I agree with you and would probably admit that I am somewhat in that category. Although I started following the Packers in 1979, it wasn't until Favre came along with some other good acquisitions that Packers began to improve and became a winning team. If memory serves me correctly they haven't had a losing season since around 2007. We are so used to them making it to the play-offs that because they have really struggled there is a lot of blame going around.

In all honesty I was beginning to feel like MM's message had gotten stale. As well as the predictable play-calling. It would frustrate me no end when it seemed like Rodgers was always looking for the home run vs moving the sticks. Is that the play calling or was that Rodgers?

I am hopeful that MM is finally becoming more creative...mainly out of necessity and he seems to have gotten Rodgers to buy in. I don't think he will be fired at the end of the season especially if they do win the last 3 games. But if this season has taught me one thing nothing is a sure thing. The Chicago game will be brutal. I want to see what the play calling is and see what happens.:drma:

[RashanGary]

Well said GBCG. Welocme.

[Pugger]

In a sense I agree with you and would probably admit that I am somewhat in that category. Although I started following the Packers in 1979, it wasn't until Favre came along with some other good acquisitions that Packers began to improve and became a winning team. If memory serves me correctly they haven't had a losing season since around 2007. We are so used to them making it to the play-offs that because they have really struggled there is a lot of blame going around.

In all honesty I was beginning to feel like MM's message had gotten stale. As well as the predictable play-calling. It would frustrate me no end when it seemed like Rodgers was always looking for the home run vs moving the sticks. Is that the play calling or was that Rodgers?

I am hopeful that MM is finally becoming more creative...mainly out of necessity and he seems to have gotten Rodgers to buy in. I don't think he will be fired at the end of the season especially if they do win the last 3 games. But if this season has taught me one thing nothing is a sure thing. The Chicago game will be brutal. I want to see what the play calling is and see what happens.:drma:

Hey! Nice to see you here! :grin:

[Bretsky]

So, what, nothing short of a Super Bowl victory is good enough?

There was a time when you said if the Packers ever won a Super Bowl under TT you would revise your opinion of him and hold him in similar regard as you did Wolf, who also won just one. As I recall, you did accept TT after 2010 .... for about one season.

One of the articles someone linked recently, which was about a former player, coach, front office person or the like, hit the nail on the head. Packer fans are friendly, warm and courteous, but have an odd sense of entitlement.

Most sports fans understand that sometimes seasons go bad, and that Championship seasons are uncommon. They evaluate their coaches, GMs etc. by reasonable standards of overall effectiveness and competitiveness. Packer fans, on the other hand, seem to think they are entitled to Super Bowl wins, and someone has failed and should be replaced if that does not happen.

Obviously the ultimate goal is a Super Bowl win, and when that does not happen over an extended period evaluations should be made. I think in assessing blame there are questions to ask:

If the Packers had won the Super Bowl in 2014, would you be calling for anyone's head regardless of what the final outcome is this year? I wouldn't, and I suspect you wouldn't either.

What if they had made it to the Super Bowl in 2014, but lost? For me the answer remains, no, but it is less certain without knowing how the game would have been lost.

So then I look at the 2014 NFCCG. Did they lose that game because of a lack of talent? I say, no. They dominated most of that game, not unlike the game this past Sunday. In my opinion, that game was lost because of coaching decisions and coaching effectiveness, not because of talent deficiency.

Then I look at the other huge playoff disappointments, and I don't see the losses occurring from a lack of talent, but to the extent not from fate or bad luck, from coaching decisions and/or coaching effectiveness. I see these as very similar to Holmgren's SB loss with the Packers. That game wasn't lost because of talent deficiencies either.

With all of that said, if I am at the point of thinking a change is needed, the first hot seat is firmly beneath the coaching staff because of the manners in which playoff departures have occurred.

Getting back to this season, if they win out the remaining games, no one should be in jeopardy. I think TT has assembled some good young talent and depth, even though he may not have found a budding super star recently. If they win out, MM will have salvaged a sinking ship that could have plunged to the depths, and he will deserve to stay. However, his struggles the last two seasons coupled with his playoff performances overall would have him on a somewhat short leash for me.

Anything less than 3-0 would have MM's tenure under review. A loss to the Bears would be big in my decision making. Going 1-1 against the Vikings and Lions, not so much.

My annual goal is Super Bowl or Bust. If not bust, then evidence we're moving closer to the Super Bowl. In regards to TT criticism, (I'm actually surprised you remember my reference as I'm surprised anybody ready any of my drivel :) )) I noted I would not criticize TT for two years after we won a Super Bowl and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I did that (and believe it or not I kept track....lol). Perhaps Packer fans are spoiled. We're spoiled by having the best QB in the NFL on our team for many years in a row. When it comes down to it, I don't think TT has done that great of a job surrounding Aaron Rodgers with enough talent. When I consider why, I don't think he's as effective as I'd expect him to be in utilizing the three means to get talent. And if you go draft and develop only....you have to hit on a much higher percentage of your picks and it leaves less room for error for crappy first round draft picks. Our QB almost always keeps us at .500 or slightly above .500 in today's NFL. Until his play steps back I think every year we start as a borderline playoff team. Your assertion is correct in 2014; but in dealing with the facts we didn't win it all that year. I have a hard time answering the next question w/o knowing how we lost the SB had we got there. So what steps by our GM, with the coaching staff or talent, to put us in a better position for a championship ? What, if any moves, have been made to try to put us over the top ? Or are we ok with the idea that TT does not have that in his blood....to make moves like that. This year....the captain obvious move......and one I've always noted was a good one....was the signing of Jared Cook. I know some note we "tried" to replace Finley before this but we have filed. Plodder was a crap pick so instead of saying TT tried I view that attempt as a failure.

Perhaps my view of TT is heavily swayed for my bias to hire Eliot Wolf before he leaves Green Bay. Truth be told I consider TT to be an above average GM....BUT......if I'm being honest I like some of his assistants that have left for other pastures better than TT. That might happen again if Eliot Wolf leaves.

I'm also not fully on board with the coaching staff either. I consider MM okay...better than average. I consider most of our staff OK. But we're far from elite in terms of the experience and quality of our assistants IMO. I would be ok with changes there.

But Ted's reign most likely is about done due to age/retirement anyways; I don't want to see another good candidate leave to go somewhere else. I would like to see Wolf hired, Ted made to a consultant, as as the reigns are handed over Wolf can judge the staff and make the appropriate changes.

[Zool]

My annual goal is Super Bowl or Bust .

How can you possibly set a goal about something 100% out of your control?

[Bretsky]

How can you possibly set a goal about something 100% out of your control?

Businesses, our own employers, do it all the time ? As a fan, why can't I ?

[pbmax]

Businesses, our own employers, do it all the time ? As a fan, why can't I ?

If the goal is completely out of your control, you are likely to make bad decisions when you don't make it.

[denverYooper]

If the goal is completely out of your control, you are likely to make bad decisions when you don't make it.

Especially if the goal fundamentally has very low odds for even the best employees.

[pbmax]

Especially if the goal fundamentally has very low odds for even the best employees.

Patler had a great post a long time ago about the practical problems that arise when someone proposes a pie in the sky goal as a number to be monitored and achieved.

I think the examples was zero workplace accidents or something like that. Or given this forum, might have been zero first 2 round draft busts.

I had no luck finding it, but the point was that trying to achieve perfection was an inevitable failure given enough time. It focuses people's attention on details that might be difficult in the short term to address and draws away attention from more immediate concerns that could be addressed and would help improve the situation.

I have worked for both small and large companies before and am acutely aware how a single force of personality can move something along despite obstacles and odds in the former. I think its an underrated part of starting a small business and keeping it going. However, by its very nature, its prone to a lot of failures. And when conditions change or the company gets bigger, the same unrelenting stubbornness becomes a detriment as the company finds it harder to change course when necessary.

[Fritz]

You're over thinking this.

If the Bears win, there is a serious problem in Green Bay, and some one - MM or Ted or both - needs to be fired immediately after the game.

If the Packers win, we're going to the Super Bowl for sure!

[George Cumby]

How can you possibly set a goal about something 100% out of your control?

:lol:

[woodbuck27]

In a sense I agree with you and would probably admit that I am somewhat in that category. Although I started following the Packers in 1979, it wasn't until Favre came along with some other good acquisitions that Packers began to improve and became a winning team. If memory serves me correctly they haven't had a losing season since around 2007. We are so used to them making it to the play-offs that because they have really struggled there is a lot of blame going around.

In all honesty I was beginning to feel like MM's message had gotten stale. As well as the predictable play-calling. It would frustrate me no end when it seemed like Rodgers was always looking for the home run vs moving the sticks. Is that the play calling or was that Rodgers?

I am hopeful that MM is finally becoming more creative...mainly out of necessity and he seems to have gotten Rodgers to buy in. I don't think he will be fired at the end of the season especially if they do win the last 3 games. But if this season has taught me one thing nothing is a sure thing. The Chicago game will be brutal. I want to see what the play calling is and see what happens.:drma:

Nice post and ........ Whalecum !

[woodbuck27]

My annual goal is Super Bowl or Bust. If not bust, then evidence we're moving closer to the Super Bowl. In regards to TT criticism, (I'm actually surprised you remember my reference as I'm surprised anybody ready any of my drivel :) )) I noted I would not criticize TT for two years after we won a Super Bowl and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I did that (and believe it or not I kept track....lol). Perhaps Packer fans are spoiled. We're spoiled by having the best QB in the NFL on our team for many years in a row. When it comes down to it, I don't think TT has done that great of a job surrounding Aaron Rodgers with enough talent. When I consider why, I don't think he's as effective as I'd expect him to be in utilizing the three means to get talent. And if you go draft and develop only....you have to hit on a much higher percentage of your picks and it leaves less room for error for crappy first round draft picks. Our QB almost always keeps us at .500 or slightly above .500 in today's NFL. Until his play steps back I think every year we start as a borderline playoff team. Your assertion is correct in 2014; but in dealing with the facts we didn't win it all that year. I have a hard time answering the next question w/o knowing how we lost the SB had we got there. So what steps by our GM, with the coaching staff or talent, to put us in a better position for a championship ? What, if any moves, have been made to try to put us over the top ? Or are we ok with the idea that TT does not have that in his blood....to make moves like that. This year....the captain obvious move......and one I've always noted was a good one....was the signing of Jared Cook. I know some note we "tried" to replace Finley before this but we have filed. Plodder was a crap pick so instead of saying TT tried I view that attempt as a failure.

Perhaps my view of TT is heavily swayed for my bias to hire Eliot Wolf before he leaves Green Bay. Truth be told I consider TT to be an above average GM....BUT......if I'm being honest I like some of his assistants that have left for other pastures better than TT. That might happen again if Eliot Wolf leaves.

I'm also not fully on board with the coaching staff either. I consider MM okay...better than average. I consider most of our staff OK. But we're far from elite in terms of the experience and quality of our assistants IMO. I would be ok with changes there.

But Ted's reign most likely is about done due to age/retirement anyways; I don't want to see another good candidate leave to go somewhere else. I would like to see Wolf hired, Ted made to a consultant, as as the reigns are handed over Wolf can judge the staff and make the appropriate changes.

Anyone see this?

http://www.12up.com/posts/4269925-former-packers-coach-rips-ted-thompson-for-not-helping-aaron-rodgers

Former Packers Coach Rips Ted Thompson For Not Helping Aaron Rodgers

" Former fan favorite coach Kevin Greene, a Hall of Famer player who was an assistant coach with the defense on the Packers Super Bowl squad, blasted Thompson on 105.7FM The Fan for not getting enough help for Aaron Rodgers the past few seasons. "

[channtheman]

You're over thinking this.

If the Bears win, there is a serious problem in Green Bay, and some one - MM or Ted or both - needs to be fired immediately after the game.

If the Packers win, we're going to the Super Bowl for sure!

:lol:

[falco]

McCarthy sucks!

[Zool]

McCarthy sucks!

Yes but is he good st it?

[vince]

Haha brutal bump. Good lesson in why it's best to wait until the season plays out because teams often go through rough patches, but after the back-to-back pathetic defensive performances at TEN and WAS, I was getting ready to turn the page too.

Though that "Told ya so!" "No I told ya first" "Wait I've been bashing Stubby harder and longer than anyone here. I'M the man!" exchange is one for the PackerRats HOF.


On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to 0.

Hang in there guys! It looks like you're gonna have to wait a few more years yet... All these damn wins get in the way.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JAGVV4EKvk8/UpS-RfDOEXI/AAAAAAAAPKs/oWm4n_T4XtU/s1600/pitchforks.gif
Nailed it!

[pbmax]

THIS season is a disaster.


Was a disaster. Always stay through the end of the movie.

Then the stinger. Then the credits. Then the end of credits scene.

[ThunderDan]

Was a disaster. Always stay through the end of the movie.

Then the stinger. Then the credits. Then the end of credits scene.

Amazing that APB disappeared as soon as the Pack started their run. He will be back if we lose on Sunday.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'll admit I was wrong about MM, although that's not my quote that vince credits me with.

[hoosier]

Amazing that APB disappeared as soon as the Pack started their run. He will be back if we lose on Sunday.

APB and Wist

[red]

if it wasn't for this thread, fat mike may have never pulled his head out of his large ass and turned things around

i'm happy to take full responsibility for the turnaround

[vince]

I'll admit I was wrong about MM, although that's not my quote that vince credits me with.
Oops it was denveryooper. Sorry guys!

[vince]

if it wasn't for this thread, fat mike may have never pulled his head out of his large ass and turned things around

i'm happy to take full responsibility for the turnaround
:p Thanks so much red. Keep up the good work!

You gotta have some new shit to flip here before Sunday's game don't ya?

[George Cumby]

I too, must admit I was wrong. I thought he'd jumped the shark and had lost the locker room.

I love being wrong.

[pbmax]

I too, must admit I was wrong. I thought he'd jumped the shark and had lost the locker room.

I love being wrong.

That is why pessimists are secret optimist. They like their surprises positive.

[Tony Oday]

He still will squander the 1st half lead we get in Atl and lose another chance at the SB.

[mmmdk]

That is why pessimists are secret optimist. They like their surprises positive.

LOL! There's actually some truth to this...but how does making the final four make Stubby a great coach? These recent posts is a total jinx of Packers winning the super bowl...

[Fritz]

Frankly, I see a team that's gassed, that's hurt, that's out of mojo. I don't even think Green Bay will be able to get a 1st half lead.

I think Atlanta will see what Marinelli did in the second half of that last game, and they'll send guys off the edge to get to Rodgers fast. Then they'll play rough at the LOS with whatever receivers are limping around out there for the Packers.

[vince]

That's it Frwistzy. Reverse the curse!

[vince]

if it wasn't for this thread, fat mike may have never pulled his head out of his large ass and turned things around

i'm happy to take full responsibility for the turnaround
TT's watching you too red. Here's what he said about not coming to McCarthy's defense this year. http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/37029/silent-ted-packers-gm-thompson-finally-speaks-on-astronomical-feat-of-a-season


“Why interject something that’s not in the minds of anybody in the building?” Thompson said. “It’s somewhere out there in Neverland, where somebody’s dreamed up something down in the basement of their mom’s house.”

If that's not undeniable proof I don't know what is.

[pbmax]

TT's watching you too red. Here's what he said about not coming to McCarthy's defense this year. http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/37029/silent-ted-packers-gm-thompson-finally-speaks-on-astronomical-feat-of-a-season

If that's not undeniable proof I don't know what is.


Still, there was the game at Soldier Field in 1997, when one of Wolf’s players was injured and play was stopped. Wolf broke the silence when he blurted out, “drag his ass off the field, and let’s play the game.”


Or the time in Detroit during the 1993 NFC wild-card game, when George Teague returned an interception 101 yards for a touchdown. With each stride down the field, Wolf, as legend has it, uttered the words “shove it up their ass” over and over for as long as it took the NFL safety to run the length of the field.

Sounds like me during a game. Or a Game Thread poster.

[Joemailman]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000776885/article/packers-gm-team-turnaround-an-astronomical-feat


Thompson also heard endless speculation surrounding head coach Mike McCarthy.

Why didn't he quiet the noise down at the time?

"Why interject something that's not in the minds of anybody in the building?" Thompson said. "It's somewhere out there in Neverland, where somebody's dreamed up something down in the basement of their mom's house."

[King Friday]

McCarthy deserves kudos for righting the ship. However, he still did make that horrific 4th down call on his own side of the field...followed up the nest week with the same pathetic run call that almost lost the Dallas game if Crosby doesn't nail a 56 yard FG.

I still see several areas where McCarthy simply has to improve to be a truly elite coach. This "run the table" over the last 2 months has been far more about the play of Rodgers than it has been about the genius of McCarthy. Again...I'm giving him kudos for not losing the locker room and showing confidence even when things were falling apart. I'm not going to crown his ass though.

[woodbuck27]

if it wasn't for this thread, fat mike may have never pulled his head out of his large ass and turned things around

i'm happy to take full responsibility for the turnaround

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[woodbuck27]

I too, must admit I was wrong. I thought he'd jumped the shark and had lost the locker room.

I love being wrong.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jS1pa8K7MrI/VZKxQwVT3mI/AAAAAAAAHw8/OXmtEUWQZ-k/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-06-30%2Bat%2B11.08.21%2BAM.png

Just give it a tad more time.

[Pugger]

McCarthy deserves kudos for righting the ship. However, he still did make that horrific 4th down call on his own side of the field...followed up the nest week with the same pathetic run call that almost lost the Dallas game if Crosby doesn't nail a 56 yard FG.

I still see several areas where McCarthy simply has to improve to be a truly elite coach. This "run the table" over the last 2 months has been far more about the play of Rodgers than it has been about the genius of McCarthy. Again...I'm giving him kudos for not losing the locker room and showing confidence even when things were falling apart. I'm not going to crown his ass though.

The reason why that run didn't work is because Spriggs got beat bad and his guy tackled Monty behind the LOS.

[pbmax]

The reason why that run didn't work is because Spriggs got beat bad and his guy tackled Monty behind the LOS.

Taylor* also got torched, so even if Spriggs gets the cutoff block that play might have lost yards.


*I thought it was Linsley who got blown past but other commenters said it was Lane.

[bobblehead]

The reason why that run didn't work is because Spriggs got beat bad and his guy tackled Monty behind the LOS.

Did Spriggs get beat bad because the opponent knew what was coming? Is Spriggs (a man with a body built for pass blocking the edge) your best choice to be there on that play?

[King Friday]

Did Spriggs get beat bad because the opponent knew what was coming? Is Spriggs (a man with a body built for pass blocking the edge) your best choice to be there on that play?

Precisely. Stubby can be too loyal, stubborn, predictable...and occasionally makes the kind of dumb decision you don't expect from one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in professional football. That said, there certainly are other areas of coaching or leadership you can point to where he absolutely is one of the best in the league...and not all of his decisions are dumb.

[Harlan Huckleby]

not all of his decisions are dumb.

There's some tombstone material.

[Maxie the Taxi]

There's some tombstone material.LOL. I'm commissioning my tombstone artist as we speak.

[Fritz]

I think when the Packers run out of gas Sunday we're all going to realize that MM didn't get them out of the tailspin soon enough, and it cost them down the road. He seems to, more often than not, get off to sluggish starts, or go 3-1 but then follow that up with some sluggish play. Hard to get homefield advantage and a bye when you do that.

[hoosier]

I think when the Packers run out of gas Sunday we're all going to realize that MM didn't get them out of the tailspin soon enough, and it cost them down the road. He seems to, more often than not, get off to sluggish starts, or go 3-1 but then follow that up with some sluggish play. Hard to get homefield advantage and a bye when you do that.

True. But unlike the AFC, in the NFC nobody gets homefield advantage year after year. It's always someone different. When the Packers have had homefield, as in 2011 or 2007 (after Dallas lost), they have squandered it. Just as they play better with their backs against the wall, they also seem to play better in road playoff games (except when they don't). They remind me a little of the 1970s Dallas team in that way. Not the road part, the backs against the wall.

[Fritz]

You're all getting soft. This little run has made you sentimental.

Packers lose today, FIRE McCarthy immediately after the game.

And maybe Thompson, too. Heads need to roll.

And maybe re-fire Mike Stock. And Kurt Schottenheimer.

[Smidgeon]

You're all getting soft. This little run has made you sentimental.

Packers lose today, FIRE McCarthy immediately after the game.

And maybe Thompson, too. Heads need to roll.

And maybe re-fire Mike Stock. And Kurt Schottenheimer.

And Slocum.

And Donatell.

[pbmax]

There was nothing wrong with Ed Donatell. That, not McCarthy dumping his D staff in 2008/09 was the low point for treating assistant coaches in GB.

McCarthy had cause, Sherman did not.

[Cheesehead Craig]

And Slocum.

And Donatell.

And Jarret Bush.

[woodbuck27]

You can only run so far with 'All The Wonder' that is Aaron Rodgers.

If this isn't the last year for TT and MM next season will be.

[King Friday]

McCarthy deserves criticism at this point. He has ridden the coattails of Rodgers. He is just not an elite coach. Elite coaches do a hell of a lot more than continually come up short when they have a HOF caliber QB. When Rodgers isn't able to pull a rabbit out of a hat, the offense looks sluggish and out of sorts. I just don't see any highly creative game planning on the offensive side of the ball. While I don't subscribe to firing McCarthy, he needs to bring in some help on the offensive side of the ball...some new ideas would be helpful IMO. I'm not all that impressed with Bennett as OC either.

This is also like the 4th or 5th year in a row where our roster has absolutely been DESTROYED with injuries. Whatever poppycock McCarthy is devoted to in terms of "avoiding" injury needs to be put to bed. It clearly is NOT working in any way, shape, or form.

[Zool]

McCarthy deserves criticism at this point. He has ridden the coattails of Rodgers. He is just not an elite coach. Elite coaches do a hell of a lot more than continually come up short when they have a HOF caliber QB. When Rodgers isn't able to pull a rabbit out of a hat, the offense looks sluggish and out of sorts. I just don't see any highly creative game planning on the offensive side of the ball. While I don't subscribe to firing McCarthy, he needs to bring in some help on the offensive side of the ball...some new ideas would be helpful IMO. I'm not all that impressed with Bennett as OC either.

This is also like the 4th or 5th year in a row where our roster has absolutely been DESTROYED with injuries. Whatever poppycock McCarthy is devoted to in terms of "avoiding" injury needs to be put to bed. It clearly is NOT working in any way, shape, or form.

Sean Payton
Don Shula
Mike Shannahan in Denver
Marv Levy

[King Friday]

Marv Levy got to 4 Super Bowls...still waiting for McCarthy to get to his 2nd.
Shanahan won 2 Super Bowls...and Elway wasn't in his prime when Shanahan was in Denver. In another 5 years, we'll be better able to make a comparison between the two.
Don Shula...he put a mediocre QB (Griese) into the HOF...he didn't ride his QB's coattails.
Payton...yep, there is another guy riding coattails...although he's also worse than McCarthy in numerous other ways too.

[Netmag]

McCarthy will stay, but something needs to be done about the D. It's just consistently a major problem. Capers may even be fine, but TT needs to address the D aggressively with some good FAs to fill in the weaknesses. Essentially, we need Jared Cook repeated multiple times on D. That's gonna require moving faster than teams like the Patriots to close a deal and get some guys and not just waiting until the last minute to slowly get 1 guy. It worked for Cook but we need a couple of guys to help properly bolster some areas. Not saying that he shouldn't draft a lot of young players. That's still the way to go overall. I'm just saying we need more bolstering on D right now than we have time to draft & develop. We need to get to get AR some reasonable SB chances while we can.

[Pugger]

As long as Ted is the GM I don't think we are gonna see a change in direction. We fans have been clamoring for him to supplement this roster with a FA or a trade for years. We are stuck with this until the end of 2018 unless Murphy has had enough.

[mmmdk]

Great posts on McCarthy and TT. I only had to read'em and my post is done! :tup:

[pbmax]

I have no idea if firing is the answer, but nothing else seems to work.

Someone has to figure out why this defensive staff cannot teach a zone coverage to sound DBs. Its not like zone defense is unheard of in college.

Why does it cause so much confusion?

Yesterday Matthews would retreat to ILB on pass downs. He could either rush or cover. This has worked well this year (especially ruing from here), but yesterday at least twice it featured animated conversations and pointing about who was covering on the edge. And at least twice, someone got free.

[Pugger]

Frankly, I see a team that's gassed, that's hurt, that's out of mojo. I don't even think Green Bay will be able to get a 1st half lead.

I think Atlanta will see what Marinelli did in the second half of that last game, and they'll send guys off the edge to get to Rodgers fast. Then they'll play rough at the LOS with whatever receivers are limping around out there for the Packers.

You were right. We were gassed and hurt and ran into a buzz saw.

[woodbuck27]

You were right. We were gassed and hurt and ran into a buzz saw.

I heard up here too that Aaron Rodgers had the Flu Bug last week . Then I got the same news off The NFL Network.

Was there 'in fact' a Flu Bug and Packer Roster players?

[vince]

Yeah there were a few confirmed reports of guys having the flu, and rumors of it being more widespread (up to 15 guys had some symptoms) but I didn't read anything confirming that it was.

[Freak Out]

So this is the second time the Packers were humiliated in a Championship game under M3. Once they were dominating and collapsed and the other they were not competitive at all and were blown out. It's time for a change.

[bobblehead]

Marv Levy got to 4 Super Bowls...still waiting for McCarthy to get to his 2nd.
Shanahan won 2 Super Bowls...and Elway wasn't in his prime when Shanahan was in Denver. In another 5 years, we'll be better able to make a comparison between the two.
Don Shula...he put a mediocre QB (Griese) into the HOF...he didn't ride his QB's coattails.
Payton...yep, there is another guy riding coattails...although he's also worse than McCarthy in numerous other ways too.

Levy never won a super bowl
Shanahan came up short every other season of his entire career other than 2 years. In the 10 seasons that followed he missed the playoffs 6 times, lost the wildcard game twice and lost the AFCC once.
Shula had arguably the greatest QB to ever lace them up. He made one superbowl and had 4 consecutive seasons without a winning record.

[hoosier]

Don't pro football players get flu shots?????

McCarthy is 1-3 in conference championship games during his eleven years as Packer HC. In other words, his teams have been among the last four teams standing 36% of the time.

[Rutnstrut]

Don't pro football players get flu shots?????

McCarthy is 1-3 in conference championship games during his eleven years as Packer HC. In other words, his teams have been among the last four teams standing 36% of the time.

Flu shots are not effective against the stomach flu.

[red]

Don't pro football players get flu shots?????

McCarthy is 1-3 in conference championship games during his eleven years as Packer HC. In other words, his teams have been among the last four teams standing 36% of the time.

i had a flu shot this year and still got some massive flu shit that was going around

and not the stomach flu

[QBME]

Flu shots are not effective against the stomach flu.

No such thing as stomach flu, technically speaking. It's usually a norovirus.

[Zool]

Marv Levy got to 4 Super Bowls...still waiting for McCarthy to get to his 2nd.
Shanahan won 2 Super Bowls...and Elway wasn't in his prime when Shanahan was in Denver. In another 5 years, we'll be better able to make a comparison between the two.
Don Shula...he put a mediocre QB (Griese) into the HOF...he didn't ride his QB's coattails.
Payton...yep, there is another guy riding coattails...although he's also worse than McCarthy in numerous other ways too.

So a Super Bowl appearance is the level now? The target is hard to hit around here sometimes. If anything Levy should be held to a higher standard of failure. HOF QB, WR, and RB with 2 HOF guys on D. 0 Super Bowl wins.
I fucked up the Denver one. Meant Dan Reeves
Don Shula had a guy named Marino. Made 1 Super Bowl appearance.

[hoosier]

Flu shots are not effective against the stomach flu.

There is no such thing as a stomach flu. If the players truly had the flu as reported, and not a GI bug, then the flu shot would have been effective. (Rodgers was reported as sounding hoarse in a Thursday phone conversation, and if that was one of his symptoms then influenza and not gastroenteritis.)

Edit: I see Peter Sellers beat me to it. Mein Fuhrer, I can walk!!!!

[hoosier]

i had a flu shot this year and still got some massive flu shit that was going around

and not the stomach flu

Yes but your shit would have been even more massive if you hadn't gotten the shot, and you are probably mildly immunocompromised because of your excessive consumption of libations.