So what happens now?

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I have no clue what happens to the packers next. I'm not anxious for the team to be completely blown up but maybe that is what we need. On the other hand, I am old and not sure I would survive another 80's crapfest. So what needs to happen to get the packers competitive again? Cause what we are seeing on the field is not just a losing streak, it appears to be something much more fundamental. Maybe more importantly, what do you think Murphy is thinking?

[pbmax]

I think red's scenario is likeliest, that the injuries will be blamed.

I believe McCarthy has not found the answers on offense, though he is closer now than at any time previously in 22 games.

I think Ted has 3 years left on his deal, and my guess is that he doesn't get a new head coach. I think they will shuffle assistants with the extreme outcome that they fire Capers.

But I think the likeliest scenario is that Ted and Mike both stay.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I don't know what will happen. I have no idea what SHOULD happen ...except if injuries are blamed there damn well should be a thorough investigation/examination of GB's injury frequency compared to that of other teams. All aspects of our physical training program should be critically examined and fixed. Conclusions should be reached with regard to body types most likely to be out with injuries, etc.

Moreover, each and every player should be evaluated with regard to their injury history, playing time, etc. etc. Those players that fall below the median acceptable should be canned and replaced with more durable athletes.

If injuries are THE problem, injuries should be treated as THE problem and solutions found and implemented. Enough is enough.

[ThunderDan]

I don't know what will happen. I have no idea what SHOULD happen ...except if injuries are blamed there damn well should be a thorough investigation/examination of GB's injury frequency compared to that of other teams. All aspects of our physical training program should be critically examined and fixed. Conclusions should be reached with regard to body types most likely to be out with injuries, etc.

Moreover, each and every player should be evaluated with regard to their injury history, playing time, etc. etc. Those players that fall below the median acceptable should be canned and replaced with more durable athletes.

If injuries are THE problem, injuries should be treated as THE problem and solutions found and implemented. Enough is enough.

There is no prevention to a 300 pound lineman rolling up on your knee or ankle. Sprains and pulls should be addressed.

[pbmax]

There is no prevention to a 300 pound lineman rolling up on your knee or ankle. Sprains and pulls should be addressed.

I do think there is a strategic reason for some of the injuries. Brice was injured making a full speed tackle trying to pull an emergency stop on a busted D play. When you are always out of position, you put you body into positions that you aren't prepared for and things happen, like having the receiver land on you.

In a similar vein, Shields concussion history is definitely part of his unique tackling style when supporting the run game.

The Packers have pulled their tackling and angles off the bottom of the pile, but I would not call them good yet. This is why I understand but don't like the HC finding and hiring every assistant. I know why they have too (for buy in to one man) but Caper could really benefit from a coach who has a program of how to approach tackles like Seattle does.

[Maxie the Taxi]

There is no prevention to a 300 pound lineman rolling up on your knee or ankle. Sprains and pulls should be addressed.In my experience the only useful examination of a problem is one which makes no assumptions going in. In every instance of a 300 pound lineman rolling up on an ankle or a knee there are circumstances surrounding that injury, e.g., the play called, player technique, player position, player following/disregarding scheme, player aggressiveness/non-aggressiveness, etc. etc.

Yes, an effective study will surely find that some injuries are unavoidable...a player was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who knows what percentage of total injuries this represents?

Some have chalked up our injuries to "bad luck." I don't buy that. Injuries happen for a reason. If there is a technique or situational cause for injuries and that cause can be prevented or reduced, it would be worthwhile...even if it means that in order to avoid injuries players might have to forego behaviors traditionally thought to be in the best interests of winning. What good is a high risk behavior that is beneficial in the short term if it means that in the long term half the team is on the IR?

[Sparkey]

Capers has to go. The defense he runs was never designed with the idea that rookies and SFA would be running it.

With the injuries, what else can they do on D? Switch to a 4-3 or a 4-2-5 to take advantage of the D-lines health and minimize the need for LB's ?

[Sparkey]

Actually, Perry and Daniels are perfect for a 4 man front ?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Capers has to go. The defense he runs was never designed with the idea that rookies and SFA would be running it.

With the injuries, what else can they do on D? Switch to a 4-3 or a 4-2-5 to take advantage of the D-lines health and minimize the need for LB's ?As with anything, opponents find weaknesses and adjust. Stubby and Capers have been doing their thing for years now. Maybe opponents have figured it out and adjusted. I know Belichick has gone from 4-3 to 3-4 and back again depending on the personnel he has. That kind of thinking and adjusting does not seem to come easy to Stubby and staff.

When injuries hit like they have the Packers, maybe there's nothing you can do but pray. However, there's the old saying: Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Sparkey]

As with anything, opponents find weaknesses and adjust. Stubby and Capers have been doing their thing for years now. Maybe opponents have figured it out and adjusted. I know Belichick has gone from 4-3 to 3-4 and back again depending on the personnel he has. That kind of thinking and adjusting does not seem to come easy to Stubby and staff.

When injuries hit like they have the Packers, maybe there's nothing you can do but pray. However, there's the old saying: Desperate times call for desperate measures.

My first thought is "What have they got to lose?"

then the definition of insanity pops into my head:

Doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting different results.

[Carolina_Packer]

In my experience the only useful examination of a problem is one which makes no assumptions going in. In every instance of a 300 pound lineman rolling up on an ankle or a knee there are circumstances surrounding that injury, e.g., the play called, player technique, player position, player following/disregarding scheme, player aggressiveness/non-aggressiveness, etc. etc.

Yes, an effective study will surely find that some injuries are unavoidable...a player was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who knows what percentage of total injuries this represents?

Some have chalked up our injuries to "bad luck." I don't buy that. Injuries happen for a reason. If there is a technique or situational cause for injuries and that cause can be prevented or reduced, it would be worthwhile...even if it means that in order to avoid injuries players might have to forego behaviors traditionally thought to be in the best interests of winning. What good is a high risk behavior that is beneficial in the short term if it means that in the long term half the team is on the IR?

Good take, Maxie. Injuries suck. I know we are not supposed to fully blame them for outcomes, but nobody can sit there and say that the level of play should or would be exactly the same with the rash of injuries. You just can't defend that position. The level of play WILL drop off. The coaching staff does not want to talk about it for fear of looking like 1) you are conceding anything 2) you don't believe in your depth and 3) you can only play with the guy you have, and you need them to have confidence.

I think it's too little, too late for this year. I think they can finish strong, but nothing about the available personnel and possible adjustments indicate enough of a turn-around is possible. They HAVE to stop the run to create down and distances that favor the pass rushers chances. The pass rushers HAVE to get home to help the back end guys and if you need the safeties to come up to help with blitzing/rushing and you don't get home, the same big plays will continue to happen. Stop the run(down and distance win, pass rush possibility) and run the ball (controls the clock and helps the D). It's symbiotic. They need the offense to start faster, and put pressure on the opposing offense, and keep the ball long enough to give the D a rest. The need the D to stop the run, control down and distance, rush the passer and get off the field.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

In my experience the only useful examination of a problem is one which makes no assumptions going in. In every instance of a 300 pound lineman rolling up on an ankle or a knee there are circumstances surrounding that injury, e.g., the play called, player technique, player position, player following/disregarding scheme, player aggressiveness/non-aggressiveness, etc. etc.

Yes, an effective study will surely find that some injuries are unavoidable...a player was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who knows what percentage of total injuries this represents?

Some have chalked up our injuries to "bad luck." I don't buy that. Injuries happen for a reason. If there is a technique or situational cause for injuries and that cause can be prevented or reduced, it would be worthwhile...even if it means that in order to avoid injuries players might have to forego behaviors traditionally thought to be in the best interests of winning. What good is a high risk behavior that is beneficial in the short term if it means that in the long term half the team is on the IR?

Thompson's soft and he drafts soft players, who are in turn, coached by a soft coach.

Packers don't tackle in practice anymore, which also explains why this team can't tackle or break tackle anymore in games. Through that "scared" approach in practice, players' bodies aren't accustomed to the pounding often found in games, and consequently, fragility arises.

Soft players + soft coaching = injury-prone.

[pittstang5]

At the very least, I think Capers is fired. Unless, miraculously the defense turns around next game....which we all know is not going to happen. If TN and Washington can put up 40 plus points, Eagles are going to put up 50.

This team has way to many issues, but, the defense, IMO, will be this years scapegoat - at the least.

[MadScientist]

What happens is that the Packers try a few things that ultimately don't magically cover up the lack of talent and finish no better than 6-10.

Assuming MM stays I expect the following:
1) Capers goes, as a scapegoat, and for not being able to scheme for limited talent (hard to say who can).
2) Offensive coaching structure changes. Right now you have MM, an offensive minded HC who calls the plays, Tom Clements - Associate Head Coach/Offense, and Edgar Bennett - Offensive Coordinator. This is looking and feeling like a too many cooks situation.
3) Develop a scheme for beating man coverage.
4) Figure out what is wrong with Rodger's deep balls and either fix it with an improved training regiment, or scheme away from it.

[Patler]

Thing is, in a pass happy league, losing your #1 & #2 CBs is bound to hurt badly; maybe not immediately but over time opponents find out why they are backup CBs. Then when your #3 CB misses a monthly along with the only pass rusher who attracts attention, it gets even worse. Now it looks like they will be without their starting ILBs. There are a million built in excuses, especially when they can say they played "OK" the first month.

I prefer to look at the entire body of work, and say that with many changes of personnel, in the last 6 years Capers defenses have not had a single strong feature. Enough is enough.

Someone has to be the scapegoat for this season. Two years ago it was Slocom and a couple random assistants. It's Capers turn.

[Fritz]

Thing is, in a pass happy league, losing your #1 & #2 CBs is bound to hurt badly; maybe not immediately but over time opponents find out why they are backup CBs. Then when your #3 CB misses a monthly along with the only pass rusher who attracts attention, it gets even worse. Now it looks like they will be without their starting ILBs. There are a million built in excuses, especially when they can say they played "OK" the first month.

I prefer to look at the entire body of work, and say that with many changes of personnel, in the last 6 years Capers defenses have not had a single strong feature. Enough is enough.

Someone has to be the scapegoat for this season. Two years ago it was Slocom and a couple random assistants. It's Capers turn.


Mikey Mike has a long history of ditching assistants from time to time. Whether that' s smart or just covering for your own inadequacies is hard to say. But I would agree that despite the injuries, something's gotta be done. Capers' defenses have not been of championship caliber - closest was 2014, but then I can't get the image of Micah Hyde allowing a cross-field two-point conversion pass float over his head.

My guess is that Capers will "retire," and we'll try someone else. I dunno who. Problem is, the offense has not been altogether productive the past couple of years, and that's been with a healthy Rodgers. Can McCarthy fire himself? And not just as offensive coordinator, either.

My guess is that the organization takes the long view - the whole "even Pittsburgh has its down years" thing. Maybe that's the best approach. But the whole organization seems to be losing its luster. Has been for some time now.

Time for Ted to go? Or is it just all these injuries? Ah, hell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I predict that Capers is fired but his hair piece stays on.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My guess is that the organization takes the long view - the whole "even Pittsburgh has its down years" thing. Maybe that's the best approach. But the whole organization seems to be losing its luster. Has been for some time now.

The organization had its luster even in the 80s.

I find it comical that people expect the home team to be better than 8-8 every year. The NFL is not Lake Wobegone. The occasional down years thing really is a thing.

Firing Capers is silly, IMO. I remember the pans to the coaching booth in September/October when the defense was playing well. The announcers hailed Capers as the Grand Old Man of defensive coaching.

Losing the top 2 corners is not fixable, and they lost more than that.

[VegasPackFan]

As to TT, yes, I think he blew it this year with the Rb situation. HOWEVER, weren't his methods of not blowing big FA $$'s and building through the draft universally praised in the media and NFL circles the last few years? I'm still not a big fan of bringing in guys that have already had their best years and too often coast on a big FA contract as part of this team. At the same time, I'm thinking maybe just a little more balance in this area. Take a few measured chances on key guys. And for God sakes at least draft a fast, multi-dimension RB this year. We passed on a bunch of those for some reason.

[Smidgeon]

The organization had its luster even in the 80s.

I find it comical that people expect the home team to be better than 8-8 every year. The NFL is not Lake Wobegone. The occasional down years thing really is a thing.

Firing Capers is silly, IMO. I remember the pans to the coaching booth in September/October when the defense was playing well. The announcers hailed Capers as the Grand Old Man of defensive coaching.

Losing the top 2 corners is not fixable, and they lost more than that.

Since when are you supposed to be a voice of reason? Is there some sort of subtle sarcastic criticism I'm missing here?

[pittstang5]

This may be a little off topic, but wasn't Jerry Montgomery hired to take over for Capers, when the "time was right." I thought I read that somewhere.

[denverYooper]

What happens is that the Packers try a few things that ultimately don't magically cover up the lack of talent and finish no better than 6-10.

Assuming MM stays I expect the following:
1) Capers goes, as a scapegoat, and for not being able to scheme for limited talent (hard to say who can).
2) Offensive coaching structure changes. Right now you have MM, an offensive minded HC who calls the plays, Tom Clements - Associate Head Coach/Offense, and Edgar Bennett - Offensive Coordinator. This is looking and feeling like a too many cooks situation.
3) Develop a scheme for beating man coverage.
4) Figure out what is wrong with Rodger's deep balls and either fix it with an improved training regiment, or scheme away from it.

Re #4, Cook made some of those deep balls look a little more on the mark.

[SMBASS]

More than likely nothing. "We do what we do.", "What difference at this point does it make?", etc., etc., etc. The most I see happening is possibly replacing Dom at the end of the season and I'm not even sure about that.

[red]

Yes the defense sucks and is badly injured

However, 24 points isn't gonna win a ton of games in today's NFL. The offense is also badly broken, for almost 2 years now, without the huge injury excuse (except for jordy last year)

[pbmax]

Mikey Mike has a long history of ditching assistants from time to time. Whether that' s smart or just covering for your own inadequacies is hard to say. But I would agree that despite the injuries, something's gotta be done. Capers' defenses have not been of championship caliber - closest was 2014, but then I can't get the image of Micah Hyde allowing a cross-field two-point conversion pass float over his head.

My guess is that Capers will "retire," and we'll try someone else. I dunno who. Problem is, the offense has not been altogether productive the past couple of years, and that's been with a healthy Rodgers. Can McCarthy fire himself? And not just as offensive coordinator, either.


I know that he has dumped assistants before, but honestly, is there any assistant he has punted that you wish to see return? He is too loyal, not too ruthless.

[pbmax]

Re #4, Cook made some of those deep balls look a little more on the mark.

Those fade routes were right out of college. Specifically Spurrier. Fun to see a "relatively" easy throw.

Also, despite limitations, Cobb competes like a madman. He volunteered for punt return duty AND he went after that jump ball like he was Darryl Dawkins and not Maurice Cheeks.

[Bretsky]

I'd be a fan of Sean Payton or Hoodie Genius JR

[Carolina_Packer]

As to TT, yes, I think he blew it this year with the Rb situation. HOWEVER, weren't his methods of not blowing big FA $$'s and building through the draft universally praised in the media and NFL circles the last few years? I'm still not a big fan of bringing in guys that have already had their best years and too often coast on a big FA contract as part of this team. At the same time, I'm thinking maybe just a little more balance in this area. Take a few measured chances on key guys. And for God sakes at least draft a fast, multi-dimension RB this year. We passed on a bunch of those for some reason.

I've read other comments like this and I just don't get it. How do we know what they would have done with RB depth, had John Crockett not gotten hurt coming out of preseason? I think they would have kept him as depth, and perhaps Perillo would have been a roster casualty sooner than last week. TT finds players and helps shape the roster, but I'm sure MM has a lot of say over roster decisions, and whether they keep two or three RB's coming out of preseason. Knowing that they grade each player, and likely try and keep the best 53, perhaps they thought the extra WR was more valuable and talented than the third RB, with what was left after Crockett's injury. Perhaps that guy was able to play special teams better. You know what we can all agree on? Injuries suck. They have affected the level of play and how MM and staff is able to coordinate the offense, and certainly the defensive calls with all of those green players, too.

Now, nobody expects GB to run the ball, but I think they should keep trying to do so. Establish it with the guys you have. Create better down and distance for the passing attack. Keep the offense on the field longer, putting pressure on the opposing offense by hopefully scoring points, and eating clock, which keeps the defense off the field more. There's your defense.

On defense, you HAVE to stop the run. Period! If they can stop the run and not count on DB help to generate a pass rush, then they won't have to leave their inexperienced corners out to dry as they struggle to realize coverage and are probably thinking too much (and panicking based on their previous performances).

[Cheesehead Craig]

However, 24 points isn't gonna win a ton of games in today's NFL.

The Packers do average 24.7 ppg this season, which is 11th best in the NFL. They give up 27.6 ppg, which is 6th worst.

24 ppg is enough to win plenty in the NFL, it's just when your defense allows more than that is the problem. The offense may have it's issues, but the defense is just turrible.

[Zool]

However, 24 points isn't gonna win a ton of games in today's NFL.

Well math would disagree with you.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

[gbgary]

Yes the defense sucks and is badly injured

However, 24 points isn't gonna win a ton of games in today's NFL. The offense is also badly broken, for almost 2 years now, without the huge injury excuse (except for jordy last year)

and Lacy this year, and Cook this year, and a less than 100% Jordy this year. it's not badly broken imo...nothing a #1 wr (or a #1 te) couldn't fix.

[gbgary]

Well math would disagree with you.

lol

[Guiness]

The Packers do average 24.7 ppg this season, which is 11th best in the NFL. They give up 27.6 ppg, which is 6th worst.

24 ppg is enough to win plenty in the NFL, it's just when your defense allows more than that is the problem. The offense may have it's issues, but the defense is just turrible.

That's the way I felt during the game as well. O was ok, but I also think they had to be feeling pressured by how quickly the Redcoats O was scoring, and that they HAD to get out there and score a TD. They had receptions for 70 and 53 yards, as well as a 66 yard rush.

Washington did a good job of hitting the Defense where they were short handed - CB and ILB.

btw Did he really say Redcoats? I thought I heard it too, but am really not sure. In the 2nd half Collingsworth was definitely saying Redskins. I feel like he got a call at half time telling him to knock it off!

[Rutnstrut]

I am far from a Capers apologist. However I think more of the D blame is on TT for not giving Capers the right tools for the job. TT has repeatedly failed and needs to kicked out.

[gbgary]

I am far from a Capers apologist. However I think more of the D blame is on TT for not giving Capers the right tools for the job. TT has repeatedly failed and needs to kicked out.

he's failed on the o side of the ball but the d has been more than adequate the last couple of years...until this year. the last two drafts concentrated on the d side but drafting where we draft there's a talent drop off that hasn't been addressed through FA...on BOTH sides of the ball. unless there's a more aggressive move to bring in talent that delivers there's going to be a long nuclear winter in Green Bay soon.

[Harlan Huckleby]

IMO, the defense looked plenty talented and deep at the start of the season. They were hurting a little on the line with Pennell's suspension. But the secondary was strutting, and linebackers were fine.

[beveaux1]

IMO, the defense looked plenty talented and deep at the start of the season. They were hurting a little on the line with Pennell's suspension. But the secondary was strutting, and linebackers were fine.

I agree with this. At CB, we had Shields, Randall, Gunter, Rollins, Hawkins, and Dorleant, with Goodsen on a 4 game suspension. Hyde is a safety-CB. At safety they had Burnett, Dix, Banjo, Brice, and Marwin Evans. The secondary looked like a position of great strength.

Our line was Daniels, Guion, Clark, Lowry, and Ringo, with Pennel serving a 4 games suspension. This looked like the Achilles heel of our defense. One injury here and Lowry was starting.

I strongly disagree that the GM and head coach did a poor job of providing depth in the secondary. No coach or GM can plan for the loss of 4 of the top 5 CBs on the roster.

[beveaux1]

At OLB we had Matthews, Peppers, Perry, Jones, Fackrell, and Elliott. At ILB we had Ryan, Martinez, and Thomas with Matthews available if needed. Harlan is right, the LBs appeared to be fine.

[Joemailman]

I'd be a fan of Sean Payton or Hoodie Genius JR

Payton is working on his 3rd straight losing season. So that might work since the Saints might let us have him.

[pbmax]

Yes, if your argument is that McCarthy is made by Rodgers, then Payton is an even worse version of McCarthy.

[red]

Well math would disagree with you.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense
Good job at fantasy this week shithawk

[Bretsky]

Yes, if your argument is that McCarthy is made by Rodgers, then Payton is an even worse version of McCarthy.


Honestly my argument is we need somebody to motivate and coach Rodgers differently and get him to buy into what the coach is doing. AROD and MM have not looked cohesive in a while

[texaspackerbacker]

The problem is not Aaron Rodgers; The problem is pretty much everybody/everything but Aaron Rodgers. Thank you Ted Thompson for that. That being said, I still wouldn't rule out the team snapping out of the funk and finishing the season strong and successfully. The damn shame of that is it would probably mean Thompson and McCarthy keep their jobs and the slow deterioration of the team continues.

[Joemailman]

Honestly my argument is we need somebody to motivate and coach Rodgers differently and get him to buy into what the coach is doing. AROD and MM have not looked cohesive in a while

In my opinion, it hasn't been the same since MM took the ball out of Arod's hands late in the NFCCG at Seattle. Rodgers was visibly upset in his postgame PC, and things haven't been the same since.

[pbmax]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18114166/steelers-qb-ben-roethlisberger-colts-qb-andrew-luck-smart-concussion-protocol

You can read this as a Mark Murphy statement that nothing is happening now, but if they don't turn it around, all bets are off.

I hope he meant it because if he was just trying to weasel his way to a non-answer, its gonna catch up to him if the Packers are drafting 10th.

[Pugger]

Even if Murphy was contemplating making a move he isn't going to say anything publicly at this point in the season.

[Carolina_Packer]

I'd be surprised if anything of substance is said until a decision is made. I don't see Murphy tipping his hand. If they decide on firings, it won't just be about injuries. It will be about the level of confidence in coaches, and possible GM.

Also, a game changer would be if TT decides to hang 'em up, or Murphy convinces him to retire sooner than later. A new GM would likely want his own HC hiring.

[red]

if a move is gonna be made, you make it as soon as possible, so you are in prime position to get the best guy for the job.

if you want to keep them for the rest of the season, then you can them right after the last game and start making calls

this isn't a situation where we can sit around till april before making a move, then pick over the scraps that are left

[gbgary]

ted gone on Jan 2.

[call_me_ishmael]

There is no way either of those people is getting fired so why live in the fantasy world???

It's safe to say Ed Lacy and Sam Shields have played their last game in the green and gold. :-(

[Pugger]

I predict that Capers is fired but his hair piece stays on.

I predict Capers will "retire". They'll let him leave gracefully.

[Pugger]

There is no way either of those people is getting fired so why live in the fantasy world???

It's safe to say Ed Lacy and Sam Shields have played their last game in the green and gold. :-(

Eddie could be back. He's not gonna cost a king's ransom. Sam might be done playing period. He really can't afford one more concussion. :sad: