DOUGHERTY---PACKERS RECENT DRAFTS MISSING THE MARK

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2016/11/23/dougherty-packers-drafts-missing-mark/94285504/

[Bretsky]

hopefully this was not already posted. I"m sure it will be nitpicked and shredded. And I understand we should give them longer to develop. But ya gotta have a great batting average when this is your strategy .............or........you fall from the elite

[pbmax]

I have not even read it but from memory:

Randall was a starting corner, who was still developing, making plays and still having some bad stretches, until he got hurt.

Rollins same as above, starting at his natural position of slot corner.

Jake Ryan and Blake Martinez finally filled the hole at ILB that had been explored since 2011. Their run D was impressive and Martinez's and Thomas' pass D was the best interior the Packers have had since Barnett and first year Hawk.

Jason Spriggs played out of position in the middle of a game and stoned the DT who had been wreaking havoc on the Packers passing game last week. He struggled with speed in his stint at LT replacing Bach, but he has had few reps at that position in a live game.

Clark has played better and better as the year has gone one. He has more pass rush than advertised but he does need to learn to handle and stand up double teams better. That is usually a skill a young player needs a year or two to bone up on.

[texaspackerbacker]

Ryan and Martinez look half decent compared to what we have had at ILB - until you start to see what other teams have at that position, some higher drafted players, some of whom were talked about right here in this forum as good choices for the Packers, some players who kinda came out of nowhere and make Ryan and Martinez look pretty mediocre.

Randall and Rollins wouldn't be bad if they were mid round picks, but at #1 and 2, I for one expected better/quicker development.

It's too soon to say about Spriggs and Clark. They look decent, but then you see first and second year star-quality O and D linemen that other teams get. Other teams lose a couple of O Linemen and hardly miss a beat. We have to use damn Don Barkley - and Spriggs apparently is not even as highly thought of right now as him.

Bretsky nailed it. If somebody wants to do like Ted and build almost exclusively with the draft, he really needs to do better. Ted has gotten by for a long time on the magnificence of drafting Aaron Rodgers. Without that, his reputation would be shit, and he probably would have been gone a long time ago. He has been delinquent in maximizing things as a supporting cast for his superstar. That has resulted in slow decline and/or problems when injuries hit - hence the mess we are in now.

[red]

holy shit

i completely agree with tex

i feel sick

[pbmax]

Better and quicker development might be easier to see of they weren't injured.

[ThunderDan]

Better and quicker development might be easier to see of they weren't injured.

Hard to develop when your groin is ripped so bad you need surgery.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Better and quicker development might be easier to see of they weren't injured.

Excuses.

With their sodomitic polar bear lifestyle, Rollins and Randall's groin injuries ain't surprising. But prior to them voodooed injuries, the two of them were ballin' like Mr. Hyde - and Hyde's an abomination.

Randall hasn't been a bona fide NFL corner since he idiotically abandoned man-coverage on Fitzgerald. Diggs and that Detriot WR made Randall their biotch. Rollins is nothing but a mediocre point guard trying to play corner.

You either have game or you don't. Randall and Rollins ain't got game, yo.

[red]

Can we stop calling it draft and develop, and call it what it really is, draft and be a starter, or key backup right away. No matter if they are first rounders or undrafted free agents. We rely heavily on these guys from day one.

And before Randall got hurt, wasn't he the biggest problem on the defense?

[Freak Out]

Ugh.

[pbmax]

Can we stop calling it draft and develop, and call it what it really is, draft and be a starter, or key backup right away. No matter if they are first rounders or undrafted free agents. We rely heavily on these guys from day one.

And before Randall got hurt, wasn't he the biggest problem on the defense?

He might have been the biggest problem on a fifth ranked defense on a winning team.

[pbmax]

Everyone complaining about the talent outside of TE and ILB prior to this year is simply constructing a fantasy land where there are a number of teams with a better track record than the Packers, have more talent at each and every position, don't suffer waves of injuries and have no weak spots on the roster.

[pbmax]

Can we stop calling it draft and develop, and call it what it really is, draft and be a starter, or key backup right away. No matter if they are first rounders or undrafted free agents. We rely heavily on these guys from day one.

And before Randall got hurt, wasn't he the biggest problem on the defense?

What team does not do this? Do you want to trade away draft picks? A seven pick draft class is 13% of the roster each year.

[red]

so as long as we win, shitty players aren't a problem?

[Rutnstrut]

Can we stop calling it draft and develop, and call it what it really is, draft and be a starter, or key backup right away. No matter if they are first rounders or undrafted free agents. We rely heavily on these guys from day one.

And before Randall got hurt, wasn't he the biggest problem on the defense?

What it REALLY is, is draft and hope and pray. The develop part is added to sound good.

[red]

What team does not do this? Do you want to trade away draft picks? A seven pick draft class is 13% of the roster each year.

with us once you factor in udfa, its probably closer to 20%

we currently have 12 rookies on the active roster, plus 10 more second year players and 8 third year guys. thats well over half our roster on rookie contracts

thats a lot of inexperience

[yetisnowman]

Better and quicker development might be easier to see of they weren't injured.

I've seen plenty of a healthy Randall and a healthy Rollins. They aren't particularly good. You expect them to be good when? 2018-2019?
You blame our terrible defense on injuries. But for weeks I've watched guys like Rollins, Haha, Hyde, Burnett, Thomas, Gunter, etc get torched and tackle like shit and not know what they are doing. These guys are core rotation players that are supposed to be competent. They aren't.

[Patler]

so as long as we win, shitty players aren't a problem?

If they win, maybe the shitty players aren't really all that shitty compared to the rest of the league.

[red]

I've seen plenty of a healthy Randall and a healthy Rollins. They aren't particularly good. You expect them to be good when? 2018-2019?
You blame our terrible defense on injuries. But for weeks I've watched guys like Rollins, Haha, Hyde, Burnett, Thomas, Gunter, etc get torched and tackle like shit and not know what they are doing. These guys are core rotation players that are supposed to be competent. They aren't.

rollins is the one guy that i'm fine waiting for him to develop, he only has one year of pro and one year of college football under his belt. if anyone needs time to develop, its him. it would be nice for him to be able to be the #4 or 5 and just learn from a vet. insted he was the #3 out of the gate and became our #2 before half of his rookie season was done. and the one vet he has to learn from is probably legally brain dead

randall and rollins are the old guys in their second years

[pbmax]

I've seen plenty of a healthy Randall and a healthy Rollins. They aren't particularly good. You expect them to be good when? 2018-2019?
You blame our terrible defense on injuries. But for weeks I've watched guys like Rollins, Haha, Hyde, Burnett, Thomas, Gunter, etc get torched and tackle like shit and not know what they are doing. These guys are core rotation players that are supposed to be competent. They aren't.

So the first 5 weeks of the season were smoke and mirrors?

Last season with Matthews at ILB was a mirage?

[Patler]

So the first 5 weeks of the season were smoke and mirrors?

Last season with Matthews at ILB was a mirage?

and didn't Randall have an average game, an outstanding game and then a poor game before being injured? who knows what the next six games might have been if he hadn't been injured.

[yetisnowman]

So the first 5 weeks of the season were smoke and mirrors?

Last season with Matthews at ILB was a mirage?

If you call amassing good run defense statistics against all the worst rushing teams in the NFL smoke and mirrors, sure. I also saw a healthy Randall and Rollins get roasted by Stegon Diggs and Marvin Jones Jr. And then Dallas had their way with us, both running and throwing.
These are the games you are hanging your hat on?

[pbmax]

rollins is the one guy that i'm fine waiting for him to develop, he only has one year of pro and one year of college football under his belt...

randall and rollins are the old guys in their second years

Rollins probably does need another year and another offseason. But remember that Randall is transitioning back from college safety.

The draft and develop is not without stress points. And its not a lock that Capers is the best DC for such a team. He has spoken about having to change it before for young players.

But that has been true since 2009. New to the mix is McCarthy's struggle to reconfigure his offense for the WRs he has.

[Bretsky]

Rollins probably does need another year and another offseason. But remember that Randall is transitioning back from college safety.

The draft and develop is not without stress points. And its not a lock that Capers is the best DC for such a team. He has spoken about having to change it before for young players.

But that has been true since 2009. New to the mix is McCarthy's struggle to reconfigure his offense for the WRs he has.


IMO, .....we really screwed up by not drafting Eric Kendricks. He's what a starting ILB should look like. And I don't care if he was drafted 15 slots later. He would have been a great fit and fits the dominating profile we lack in defense.

[Bretsky]

with us once you factor in udfa, its probably closer to 20%

we currently have 12 rookies on the active roster, plus 10 more second year players and 8 third year guys. thats well over half our roster on rookie contracts

thats a lot of inexperience


YAAAAAAAAAAAAA; we must be the f'cking youngest team in the NFL again. Like last year...and the year before...and the year before..........it's like Obama............hope and change.....but right now I don't see the hope......(sorry for the politics reference)

[Bretsky]

Rollins probably does need another year and another offseason. But remember that Randall is transitioning back from college safety.

The draft and develop is not without stress points. And its not a lock that Capers is the best DC for such a team. He has spoken about having to change it before for young players.

But that has been true since 2009. New to the mix is McCarthy's struggle to reconfigure his offense for the WRs he has.



It's not a lock that TT is the best GM for today's NFL either. Wolf said the NFL changed and it would be hard for him to be an effective GM. With the rising Cap, and TT's hibernation, perhaps the NFL is changing and leaving TTT behind

[Patler]

Didn't Seattle have more rookies/first year players than GB at the start of the season?

[red]

Didn't Seattle have more rookies/first year players than GB at the start of the season?
yeah, i think i counted 14 for them, but then theres a huge drop off to second year players, they have 4 second year players on the active roster and 6 or 7, 3rd year players

its funny looking at the 2 rosters

we have 5 guys on IR and are making injury excuses, they have 11 on IR

our practice squad consists of all rookies, and 2 second year guys

they only have 3 rookies on their PS, 5-second year guys, 1-third year guy, and 1-4th year guy

[Patler]

yeah, i think i counted 14 for them, but then theres a huge drop off to second year players, they have 4 second year players on the active roster and 6 or 7, 3rd year players

Overall, I think the average ages were just a few months different. Both were among the youngest teams in the league.

[woodbuck27]

Rollins probably does need another year and another offseason. But remember that Randall is transitioning back from college safety.

The draft and develop is not without stress points. And its not a lock that Capers is the best DC for such a team. He has spoken about having to change it before for young players.

But that has been true since 2009. New to the mix is McCarthy's struggle to reconfigure his offense for the WRs he has.

Hey pbmax...are you OK !?

I just noticed that your Pro Pickem picks for Sunday 27 Nov. early games are not in.

[pbmax]

Hey pbmax...are you OK !?

I just noticed that your Pro Pickem picks for Sunday 27 Nov. early games are not in.


Bad week for fantasy. Been traveling. So I have handicapped myself this week by being late both days with picks.

And Joe is cleaning my clock in FF. He's going to have 4 wins and 2 of them against me :lol:

[pbmax]

yeah, i think i counted 14 for them, but then theres a huge drop off to second year players, they have 4 second year players on the active roster and 6 or 7, 3rd year players

its funny looking at the 2 rosters

we have 5 guys on IR and are making injury excuses, they have 11 on IR

our practice squad consists of all rookies, and 2 second year guys

they only have 3 rookies on their PS, 5-second year guys, 1-third year guy, and 1-4th year guy

And Seattle started slow, their young OL got Wilson hurt and they looked oddly human until he was healthy.

Lets see what some more players back on D does for the Packers.

[pbmax]

If you call amassing good run defense statistics against all the worst rushing teams in the NFL smoke and mirrors, sure. I also saw a healthy Randall and Rollins get roasted by Stegon Diggs and Marvin Jones Jr. And then Dallas had their way with us, both running and throwing.
These are the games you are hanging your hat on?

Vikings game was brutal, but as Patler mentioned the DBs looked better in other games. While Diggs torched them, the D put Peterson out of the game and kept the Packers in a game that had the offense was running around in circles with a bucket on their head.

All that torching resulted in 17 points allowed. I would love to be that terrible now with a much more functional offense.

[Patler]

its funny looking at the 2 rosters

we have 5 guys on IR and are making injury excuses, they have 11 on IR



One thing the Packers have done more this year than I recall them doing in past years, is signing injury settlements. Abrederris, Banjo, Walker, Henry, Backman and a bunch of rookies were all IR'dnthen released with injury settlements. It makes the size of their IR a lot smaller. In the past GB used IR to stockpile players like a lot of other teams do.

Packer injuries this year have been odd though. Three key players on offense, defense and special teams have been lost to IR. Perhaps even more significant have been the piling on of injuries causing players to miss a lot of games, but not be put on IR. Cook and Randall have virtually missed the season so far. Then Rollins goes out forcing them to start their #4 & 5 CBs while using a #3 or #4 safety or #6 CB in nickel. That's quite devastating to pass coverage. They even lost their #2 & 3 options at RB. Both starting ILBs and Lang, and Tretter just added to the chaos.

[red]

And Seattle started slow, their young OL got Wilson hurt and they looked oddly human until he was healthy.

Lets see what some more players back on D does for the Packers.

i'm guessing they;re gonna be shit, just like they've been for a few years now

remember years back when i think it was patler found the article talking about how capers needs vets?

capers also needs playmakers, his defense is dependent on turnovers. i don't think we have a single defensive playmaker on the team. clay's not that player anymore, peppers sure as hell isn't, haha hasn't turned into that player. the two young ILBs sure as hell aren't. we know burnett isn't. randall was last year, but not early this year

i think getting guys healthy on d will get them back to mediocre

[pbmax]

i'm guessing they;re gonna be shit, just like they've been for a few years now

remember years back when i think it was patler found the article talking about how capers needs vets?

capers also needs playmakers, his defense is dependent on turnovers. i don't think we have a single defensive playmaker on the team. clay's not that player anymore, peppers sure as hell isn't, haha hasn't turned into that player. the two young ILBs sure as hell aren't. we know burnett isn't. randall was last year, but not early this year

i think getting guys healthy on d will get them back to mediocre

Healthy, I think Dix, Randall and Rollins all can get him picks. Burnett can too when he is deep. Shields used to be able to do that but he's done.

[red]

Healthy, I think Dix, Randall and Rollins all can get him picks. Burnett can too when he is deep. Shields used to be able to do that but he's done.

looking it up, we are tied for 10th in sacks, tied for 17th in ints, and tied for 29th for fumbles caused (the only team worse is tenn who hasn't gotten one yet)

shields averages 3 per year (i didn't count this year), the most he had in a year is 4, casey hayward already has 6 this year for reference. so i wouldn't exactly call him a playmaker, good cb yes, but not a playmaker

haha has 5 in 3 years

burnett has 8 ints in 7 years

rollins had 2 last year, none this year

randall had 3 last year and 1 in his 3+ games this year

[hoosier]

Defense doesn't take the ball away anymore, that is the big difference between this year and previous.

[pbmax]

Defense doesn't take the ball away anymore, that is the big difference between this year and previous.

Big plays surrendered are way up too.

[bobblehead]

Everyone complaining about the talent outside of TE and ILB prior to this year is simply constructing a fantasy land where there are a number of teams with a better track record than the Packers, have more talent at each and every position, don't suffer waves of injuries and have no weak spots on the roster.

The logic goes something like this. We suck at drafting cuz we got Blake Martinez and the Patriots got Jamie Collins. We got DickRod and the Lions got Ebron. We got Lacy who got hurt and the Cowboys got Elliot. We got Randall and Carolina had Josh Norman. We should be better at every position than ANY other team.

Truth is this is a good team devastated by injuries. It lacks elite talent because we have drafted outside the top 15 for how many years? One of the few top 10 picks we had got hurt and retired young. Clay is overrated and they insist on making him happy playing him outside instead of where his talents lie...inside and stunting.

MM's system is getting a bit stale and he doesn't seem to have the fire to change it up. He constantly mismanages situations by coaching as if his team has far superior talent. Playing uber cautious to the point that it backfires. You can't be comfortable with a 17 point lead late cuz you know we will play prevent, allow 2 TD's, run the ball 6-9 times and rely on an injury plagued D to hold on a final drive. Now he has lost the team best I can tell. Its impossible for us to be sure though, we can only gather the evidence and guess at it.

All that said, if I were GM I would trade clay if he doesn't want to play ILB, use Peppers money to grab a new elite Pass Rusher if I could and pray for health like every other team does. its no coincidence that in todays age of parity that the healthiest teams seem to have the best record.

[yetisnowman]

On the subject of takeaways......

Turnover differential +/-

2014 +16 Ranked first in the NFL
2015 +5 Tied for 10th in the NFL
2016 -6 Tied for 26th in the NFL

Disturbing trend to say the least.

[texaspackerbacker]

If they win, maybe the shitty players aren't really all that shitty compared to the rest of the league.

It's all about Aaron Rodgers. We did win - within limitations - with shitty players. We had Capers compensating for mediocre personnel on defense, and we had Rodgers working magic on offense. Until Nelson got hurt, though, our WRs were at least tolerable. Now they have been exposed as something even Aaron Rodgers can't win with consistently. And now, injuries have piled up to where even Capers' scheming can't always save things. (Thanks, Ted)

[3irty1]

You do expect to hit on pro-bowl studs every so often. Since our superbowl win that just hasn't happened. Cobb, Burnett, Perry, Daniels, Bulaga, Lacy, Bach, Randall... Some good NFL starters in there but no blue chippers so to speak. A few are close.

I'd say the primary function of the draft is to get productive first contracts. And in that we've been successful. Rookie contracts are the obvious way in the NFL to get more than you pay for. But when you're not getting your share of new blue chippers and your old blue chippers are getting extinction-level injuries, career-wrecking girlfriends, or just plain old.... you're going to feel the decline.

Hate to ever fuel Bretsky but I think the top end of our roster, the 2nd and 3rd contract guys, could use some turnover this off season and there's really only one way to do that.

[pbmax]

On the subject of takeaways......

Turnover differential +/-

2014 +16 Ranked first in the NFL
2015 +5 Tied for 10th in the NFL
2016 -6 Tied for 26th in the NFL

Disturbing trend to say the least.

Agreed.

[Joemailman]

Truth is this is a good team devastated by injuries. It lacks elite talent because we have drafted outside the top 15 for how many years? One of the few top 10 picks we had got hurt and retired young. Clay is overrated and they insist on making him happy playing him outside instead of where his talents lie...inside and stunting.



I do wonder though if TT has lost hos touch a bit. For a while, he excelled at drafting impact players in the late 1st/2nd round:

2005: Aaron Rodgers (24)
2005: Nick Collins (51)
2006: Greg Jennings (52)
2008: Jordy Nelson (36)
2009: Clay Matthews (26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (23)
2011: Randall Cobb (64)

Since then, only Eddie Lacy has been a pick that produced an impact player. And that was only for 2 years.

[hoosier]

Big plays surrendered are way up too.

And big ("explosive") plays produced are way down from 2009-14. Ok, it's not just turnover ratio, it's that plus EP differential.

[hoosier]

You do expect to hit on pro-bowl studs every so often. Since our superbowl win that just hasn't happened. Cobb, Burnett, Perry, Daniels, Bulaga, Lacy, Bach, Randall... Some good NFL starters in there but no blue chippers so to speak. A few are close.

I'd say the primary function of the draft is to get productive first contracts. And in that we've been successful. Rookie contracts are the obvious way in the NFL to get more than you pay for. But when you're not getting your share of new blue chippers and your old blue chippers are getting extinction-level injuries, career-wrecking girlfriends, or just plain old.... you're going to feel the decline.

Hate to ever fuel Bretsky but I think the top end of our roster, the 2nd and 3rd contract guys, could use some turnover this off season and there's really only one way to do that.

As recent as September, I recall that Ted's latest drafts were looking pretty good. We all (excepting Chicken Little) thought they had the makings of an elite secondary, and that if the defensive line could hold up until Pennell returned then everything was going to be hunky dory. Some of the guys you list are really close to all-pro level when they're healthy: Daniels, Perry, Lacy, Bach, Randall. I don't see the draft as a primary contributor to the Packers's problems.

[hoosier]

I do wonder though if TT has lost hos touch a bit. For a while, he excelled at drafting impact players in the late 1st/2nd round:

2005: Aaron Rodgers (24)
2005: Nick Collins (51)
2006: Greg Jennings (52)
2008: Jordy Nelson (36)
2009: Clay Matthews (26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (23)
2011: Randall Cobb (64)

Since then, only Eddie Lacy has been a pick that produced an impact player. And that was only for 2 years.

Some of the guys you list didn't emerge as impact players until their third year (Rodgers, Collins, Nelson). HaHa, Randall, and Adams could still fit that mold.

[Patler]

Some of the guys you list didn't emerge as impact players until their third year (Rodgers, Collins, Nelson). HaHa, Randall, and Adams could still fit that mold.

In his third season, some were saying Collins was a bust. He finished the year with 0 int., 0 fumbles and just 5 pd.He had by far his lowest tackle numbers to then. He did miss 3 games, but his performance was down by more than just the missed games.

[Pugger]

I do wonder though if TT has lost hos touch a bit. For a while, he excelled at drafting impact players in the late 1st/2nd round:

2005: Aaron Rodgers (24)
2005: Nick Collins (51)
2006: Greg Jennings (52)
2008: Jordy Nelson (36)
2009: Clay Matthews (26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (23)
2011: Randall Cobb (64)

Since then, only Eddie Lacy has been a pick that produced an impact player. And that was only for 2 years.

Had Eddie not injured that ankle he would have a decent season this year. He was averaging over 5 yards a carry.

[pbmax]

Perry has been fine this year. Its arguable on the Pro Bowl front, but he's been solid in all phases. They need ANOTHER pass rusher and Daniels/Matthews/Peppers have been inconsistent. Peppers looking better lately.

[Patler]

I do wonder though if TT has lost hos touch a bit. For a while, he excelled at drafting impact players in the late 1st/2nd round:

2005: Aaron Rodgers (24)
2005: Nick Collins (51)
2006: Greg Jennings (52)
2008: Jordy Nelson (36)
2009: Clay Matthews (26)
2010: Bryan Bulaga (23)
2011: Randall Cobb (64)

Since then, only Eddie Lacy has been a pick that produced an impact player. And that was only for 2 years.

If that article was written in 2007, neither Rodgers nor Collins would have been considered difference makers.
If it was written in 2010, Nelson wouldn't have been considered a difference maker.
At this point of 2012, Bulaga was out for the year after missing time in 2011. Not much certainty about him, either.

Perry is productive, as was Lacy. Adams is showing ability this year. Dix still can be a difference maker, and it is too soon to know about anyone after Dix.

[yetisnowman]

As recent as September, I recall that Ted's latest drafts were looking pretty good. We all (excepting Chicken Little) thought they had the makings of an elite secondary, and that if the defensive line could hold up until Pennell returned then everything was going to be hunky dory. Some of the guys you list are really close to all-pro level when they're healthy: Daniels, Perry, Lacy, Bach, Randall. I don't see the draft as a primary contributor to the Packers's problems.

None of those guys are "really close" to being all pro. Maybe you meant pro-bowl. Even still that's borderline delusional save for maybe Daniels. And even he is having a down year in my opinion. Lacy is injured, but he is also coming off one of the most disappointing seasons for a RB in NFL history. Perry, Randall, Bahktiari? Seriously?

[Patler]

Lacy is injured, but he is also coming off one of the most disappointing seasons for a RB in NFL history. Perry, Randall, Bahktiari? Seriously?

Lacy had one of the most disappointing seasons for a RB in NFL history? Are you serious? Lacy still ran hard and averaged the same per carry as he did his rookie season. Yes, more was expected, but I think you have over reacted to it.

Perry has had a good year, and Bakhtiari is getting respect as a pass blocker.

[red]

Lacy had one of the most disappointing seasons for a RB in NFL history? Are you serious? Lacy still ran hard and averaged the same per carry as he did his rookie season. Yes, more was expected, but I think you have over reacted to it.

Perry has had a good year, and Bakhtiari is getting respect as a pass blocker.


its really nice to see nick perry almost becoming the player we expected him to be in year one, here in year #5

[yetisnowman]

Lacy had one of the most disappointing seasons for a RB in NFL history? Are you serious? Lacy still ran hard and averaged the same per carry as he did his rookie season. Yes, more was expected, but I think you have over reacted to it.

Perry has had a good year, and Bakhtiari is getting respect as a pass blocker.

Yes I stand by my statement. 750 yds 3 tds from a guy that was supposed to be a top 3-4 back in the league. He was fat and sluggish and not very productive. If 2015 wasn't a major disappointment, then why did everyone on the planet refer to this season as a "bounceback" opportunity.
Perry has had a good year.....by his standards. He has also been largely invisible since about week 5. Bakhtiari is a solid starter, but far from elite. My original assertion stands that None of these players a close to all pro caliber.

[3irty1]

With draft picks you have to put extra weight on what you contribute on your rookie contract. Those precious years are the key to beating the parity mechanisms of the NFL. IMO if every draft pick were just Micah Hyde level of value we'd be the best team in the NFL.

Taking that into account for the Nick Perry pick to be bragworthy he would have to become Demarcus Ware, a talent so special you're happy that he'll take his second contract from you instead of someone else. He's not that, probably won't ever be, and he did very little with his rookie contract.

Perhaps Adams, Clinton-Dix, Martinez, Montgomery, etc will make a leap and become the difference makers that Jennings, Collins, or Matthews once were. But if even if they do there's no doubt that we're currently in a blue chip drought as the guard changes.

[Patler]

its really nice to see nick perry almost becoming the player we expected him to be in year one, here in year #5

I didn't expect it year 1 at all, with the position change and all. When he missed most of his rookie year, I didn't have real high expectations for year 2 either. My disappointment with Perry was the constant injuries. It seemed that each year he had games when he showed solid ability, but he was injured so much I figured it just wasn't meant to be.

Overall, yes a disappointing career, but not due to his ability or effort, just the constant injuries.

[Patler]

Yes I stand by my statement. 750 yds 3 tds from a guy that was supposed to be a top 3-4 back in the league. He was fat and sluggish and not very productive. If 2015 wasn't a major disappointment, then why did everyone on the planet refer to this season as a "bounceback" opportunity.
Perry has had a good year.....by his standards. He has also been largely invisible since about week 5. Bakhtiari is a solid starter, but far from elite. My original assertion stands that None of these players a close to all pro caliber.

I never considered Lacy one of the 3 or 4 best in the league. Not at all. As far as most disappointing ever, I was much more disappointed in John Brockington suddenly becoming unwilling to run into traffic, dancing behind the line without running forward. Imwas disappointed in Lacy getting out of shape, but not his effort on the field. He's young, he screwed up.

Didn't know you wanted to find just all pros. GB has none, and hasn't had for years and years, in my opinion. All pros are few and far between. You don't have to have all pros to be successful.

[yetisnowman]

I never considered Lacy one of the 3 or 4 best in the league. Not at all. As far as most disappointing ever, I was much more disappointed in John Brockington suddenly becoming unwilling to run into traffic, dancing behind the line without running forward. Imwas disappointed in Lacy getting out of shape, but not his effort on the field. He's young, he screwed up.

Didn't know you wanted to find just all pros. GB has none, and hasn't had for years and years, in my opinion. All pros are few and far between. You don't have to have all pros to be successful.

Well many experts predicted Lacy to perform at that level. And you can poo poo fantasy football of you like, but he was a first round selection for a lot of people last season, based on the projections of people that get paid to make such projections.

My all-pro comments were in response to hoosier's comments specifically that stated that Daniels, Perry, Lacy, Randall, Bahktiari are all really close to all pro level.
I agree you can be a good team without all pros. But you need to have some next tier guys i.e. pro-bowl caliber players. And do the Packers have any? Aaron and Jordy maybe then what?

[Patler]

I agree you can be a good team without all pros. But you need to have some next tier guys i.e. pro-bowl caliber players. And do the Packers have any? Aaron and Jordy maybe then what?

I think they have quite a few next tier guys, or guys close to it. Daniels, Lang (forgetting his injury). I am seeing more and more comments that Bulaga is having an outstanding year. For the first half season, Perry deserved pro-bowl consideration. Depends now how he finishes. Shields could have been close. My darkhorse at the start of the year was a rejuvenated Cook having many games like last week, but its too late now.

[woodbuck27]

.......... Bretsky nailed it. If somebody wants to do like Ted and build almost exclusively with the draft, he really needs to do better. Ted has gotten by for a long time on the magnificence of drafting Aaron Rodgers. Without that, his reputation would be shit, and he probably would have been gone a long time ago. He has been delinquent in maximizing things as a supporting cast for his superstar. That has resulted in slow decline and/or problems when injuries hit - hence the mess we are in now.

You nailed it.

If ARod hadn't fallen to TT where would the Green Bay Packers be?

I suggest 'a sick franchise'.

[pbmax]

You nailed it.

If ARod hadn't fallen to TT where would the Green Bay Packers be?

I suggest 'a sick franchise'.

Yep, Ted is not demonstrably smarter than 23 other GMs, he was just lucky once.

[Bretsky]

Yep, Ted is not demonstrably smarter than 23 other GMs, he was just lucky once.


He had somebody fall into his lap and kudos for TTT for taking advantage of that. Some GM's would most likely still have passed on AROD. But since then he has fallen short of expectations and searching for stars up and down our roster makes that apparent IMO

[Bretsky]

You do expect to hit on pro-bowl studs every so often. Since our superbowl win that just hasn't happened. Cobb, Burnett, Perry, Daniels, Bulaga, Lacy, Bach, Randall... Some good NFL starters in there but no blue chippers so to speak. A few are close.

I'd say the primary function of the draft is to get productive first contracts. And in that we've been successful. Rookie contracts are the obvious way in the NFL to get more than you pay for. But when you're not getting your share of new blue chippers and your old blue chippers are getting extinction-level injuries, career-wrecking girlfriends, or just plain old.... you're going to feel the decline.

[Hate to ever fuel Bretsky but I think the top end of our roster, the 2nd and 3rd contract guys, could use some turnover this off season and there's really only one way to do that


We've bought a new and enlarged train to fit you and all newbies on board !!!!!!! WELCOME !

[Bretsky]

its really nice to see nick perry almost becoming the player we expected him to be in year one, here in year #5



This was just too funny not to shout out a CLAP

Right or wrong, I never bought into that pick.

[yetisnowman]

Daniels has regressed quite a bit this year. Not the same push and leverage that I'm accustomed to seeing from him. Lang is solid, but we traded our best o-lineman tthis summer. Having a couple guys that might be kinda sorta close to maybe making a pro bowl isn't cutting it.

[red]

He had somebody fall into his lap and kudos for TTT for taking advantage of that. Some GM's would most likely still have passed on AROD. But since then he has fallen short of expectations and searching for stars up and down our roster makes that apparent IMO

i agree. lots of things had to happen for a-rod to fall to us. it was a good move by TT to take him, but not ground breaking. he needed a QB with his aging star threatening to retire every offseason. he needed a new franchise back.

then san fran passes on a-rod for smith, then almost every other team decides they don't need a QB for some reason. so he falls in our lap. TT was given a gift by the rest of the NFL

and he's built a career and a reputation as a draft guru off that one pick imo

[red]

Daniels has regressed quite a bit this year. Not the same push and leverage that I'm accustomed to seeing from him. Lang is solid, but we traded our best o-lineman tthis summer. Having a couple guys that might be kinda sorta close to maybe making a pro bowl isn't cutting it.

hmm. a player not playing on the same level after getting a big contract?

unheard of

[pbmax]

i agree. lots of things had to happen for a-rod to fall to us. it was a good move by TT to take him, but not ground breaking. he needed a QB with his aging star threatening to retire every offseason. he needed a new franchise back.


No one wanted him to take Rodgers. Everyone went along with a value pick, but most were disappointed help wasn't drafted elsewhere. It was a classic future pick.

It reportedly pissed off his HC and QB at the same time.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

No one wanted him to take Rodgers. Everyone went along with a value pick, but most were disappointed help wasn't drafted elsewhere. It was a classic future pick.

It reportedly pissed off his HC and QB at the same time.

Not really. Sherman simply was still mad at himself for not trading up to take Benny the Big the year before. Fell in love with Roethisberger after working him out. Didn't trust his instincts, and instead, took Carroll, Thomas, Washington and the infamous BJ Sanders with his first 4 picks.

Make fun of Sherman's picks all you want, but keep in mind that Dorsey, McKenzie and Schneider all consulted Sherman. All are now running things the way Sherman used to - ALL ASPECTS of the GAME.

And oh, btw, Sherman NEVER missed the playoffs as GM. Never lost 4 straight games.

[pbmax]

Not really. Sherman simply was still mad at himself for not trading up to take Benny the Big the year before. Fell in love with Roethisberger after working him out. Didn't trust his instincts, and instead, took Carroll, Thomas, Washington and the infamous BJ Sanders with his first 4 picks.

Make fun of Sherman's picks all you want, but keep in mind that Dorsey, McKenzie and Schneider all consulted Sherman. All are now running things the way Sherman used to - ALL ASPECTS of the GAME.

And oh, btw, Sherman NEVER missed the playoffs as GM. Never lost 4 straight games.

Sherman did not want Ben. That was Rossley.

And somewhere we have a report that Sherman wanted somebody else.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Sherman did not want Ben. That was Rossley.

And somewhere we have a report that Sherman wanted somebody else.

Get your facts straight before you post! :)

Rossley worked out Rodgers and probably was jolly Thompson took Rodgers with Sherman's pick.

As for Big Ben: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/story/_/id/15232563/the-day-browns-passed-big-ben


Shane Montgomery, former Miami (Ohio) offensive coordinator: "Rothlisberger just kind of won everybody over [at his pro day]. He responded to pressure really well, and he could throw the ball from any angle. I know [then Packers coach Mike Sherman] loved him. He said he really wanted him but had no chance. He said that in our weight room."

[woodbuck27]

Get your facts straight before you post! :)

Rossley worked out Rodgers and probably was jolly Thompson took Rodgers with Sherman's pick.

As for Big Ben: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/story/_/id/15232563/the-day-browns-passed-big-ben

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT089w1raKoD67WnPfe0I-QfljlKAGv8AEjWh1DSe2mQkDIvau8

[Carolina_Packer]

One thing the Packers have done more this year than I recall them doing in past years, is signing injury settlements. Abrederris, Banjo, Walker, Henry, Backman and a bunch of rookies were all IR'dnthen released with injury settlements. It makes the size of their IR a lot smaller. In the past GB used IR to stockpile players like a lot of other teams do.

Packer injuries this year have been odd though. Three key players on offense, defense and special teams have been lost to IR. Perhaps even more significant have been the piling on of injuries causing players to miss a lot of games, but not be put on IR. Cook and Randall have virtually missed the season so far. Then Rollins goes out forcing them to start their #4 & 5 CBs while using a #3 or #4 safety or #6 CB in nickel. That's quite devastating to pass coverage. They even lost their #2 & 3 options at RB. Both starting ILBs and Lang, and Tretter just added to the chaos.

Good points. To dovetail off your point, you also have to consider how fully healthy some guys are even when they do come back. I know that everyone is dinged up this time of year, but if you are a guy coming back from a goin injury/surgery, like Randall, or a hammy injury like Clay who missed 3 games, you may be back on the field, but at what percentage of health? For instance, Adams last year gutting out an ankle injury and a healthy Adams this year is a stark contrast. He's way more explosive, because he's relatively healthy.

[Fritz]

[/SIZE]We've bought a new and enlarged train to fit you and all newbies on board !!!!!!! WELCOME !

Before you fire up that train, remember the "Fresno Fraud." He does not appear fraudulent.

[Pugger]

Daniels has regressed quite a bit this year. Not the same push and leverage that I'm accustomed to seeing from him. Lang is solid, but we traded our best o-lineman tthis summer. Having a couple guys that might be kinda sorta close to maybe making a pro bowl isn't cutting it.

I wish we had traded Sitton and got something for him instead of just letting him walk. :???:

[Pugger]

Not really. Sherman simply was still mad at himself for not trading up to take Benny the Big the year before. Fell in love with Roethisberger after working him out. Didn't trust his instincts, and instead, took Carroll, Thomas, Washington and the infamous BJ Sanders with his first 4 picks.

Make fun of Sherman's picks all you want, but keep in mind that Dorsey, McKenzie and Schneider all consulted Sherman. All are now running things the way Sherman used to - ALL ASPECTS of the GAME.

And oh, btw, Sherman NEVER missed the playoffs as GM. Never lost 4 straight games.

You make me laugh. You are the only clown who still gets a hard on for Sherman. Talk about living in the past. :lol:

[pbmax]

Get your facts straight before you post! :)

Rossley worked out Rodgers and probably was jolly Thompson took Rodgers with Sherman's pick.

As for Big Ben: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2016/story/_/id/15232563/the-day-browns-passed-big-ben

Fair enough, I got that wrong.

[Joemailman]

You nailed it.

If ARod hadn't fallen to TT where would the Green Bay Packers be?

I suggest 'a sick franchise'.

Yep. Where would the Patriots and Belichick be if Brady hadn't fallen until the 6th round? Can't believe they made 6 picks in 2000 before picking him! Unsound!

[Zool]

Fair enough, I got that wrong.

I doubt there's ever been a time where someone liked a player in the draft but passed on them and regretted it later. It just proves the genius of Joe Johnson....I mean Mike Sherman.

[Patler]

No one wanted him to take Rodgers. Everyone went along with a value pick, but most were disappointed help wasn't drafted elsewhere. It was a classic future pick.

It reportedly pissed off his HC and QB at the same time.

As it turned out, he didn't really need Rodgers, or any replacement for six years, because Favre played through 2010.

Plus, there was more than a little skepticism about Rodgers and whether he could adapt to the NFL. Thetford's programs had a miserable track record with highly successful college QBs failing in the NFL. Many said Rodgers was a risk just because of that, his college stats being irrelevant because of the system he came out of.

Now, everyone sees the wisdom in drafting Rodgers. At the time it wasn't as clear.

[pbmax]

I can see why both Sherman and Thompson wanted a backup. Neither Craig Nall nor JT O'Sullivan were going to be a franchise QB.

And I doubt anyone really knew whether Favre wanted to retire or was just angling for a win now mentality by the front office.

Its just that while developmental QB was on everyone's list due to his age and constant retirement ponderings, no one thought it was going to be a 1st round deal. They had other more pressing needs.

[Patler]

I can see why both Sherman and Thompson wanted a backup. Neither Craig Nall nor JT O'Sullivan were going to be a franchise QB.

And I doubt anyone really knew whether Favre wanted to retire or was just angling for a win now mentality by the front office.

Its just that while developmental QB was on everyone's list due to his age and constant retirement ponderings, no one thought it was going to be a 1st round deal. They had other more pressing needs.

Yup, a development guy, like Hundley.

Drafting a QB in the first round was stamping an expiration date on Favre. Something was going to happen in a few years, one way or another.

[Fritz]

Just like Hundley! He's gonna take A- Rod's job in 2018, you wait and see!