TT or M3

[bobblehead]

So, Bretsky asking about second best coach. Given his and my differences in opinion on who is to credit for Packers success, I think we need to hash out the arguments.

I am saying TT is the talent. My argument is thus. He produced a superbowl winner in Seattle. His assistants have produced a superbowl winner in Seattle and completely turned Oakland around. He manages the cap well, rarely losing guys who go on to be studs with other teams. Certainly I would like to see him utilize FA just a little more to fill some holes with vets, but overall he keeps a lot of talent on the field compared to most organizations. He also had the stones to trade Favre at just the right time to have Rodgers flourish.

MM's assistants haven't won. McAdoo finally has made the playoffs, but was spotted a 2 time superbowl champ at QB. MM's "assistant head coach" Winston Moss is on nobody's list despite MM insisting he is the shit. Philbin completely lost that dolphins team. MM seems to have been more influenced from the Schottenheimer tree than the Walsh tree when you watch him count possessions and burn clock instead of putting teams away. MM is brilliant at developing young QB's, but as OC in SF he probably had input in drafting Alex Smith ahead of Rodgers so I question his judgement on certain issues. He also refused to start certain players that excelled after injuries forced his hand.

I blame both of MM and TT for AJ Hawk being a starter for so long.

[Guiness]

So, Bretsky asking about second best coach. Given his and my differences in opinion on who is to credit for Packers success, I think we need to hash out the arguments.

I am saying TT is the talent. My argument is thus. He produced a superbowl winner in Seattle. His assistants have produced a superbowl winner in Seattle and completely turned Oakland around. He manages the cap well, rarely losing guys who go on to be studs with other teams. Certainly I would like to see him utilize FA just a little more to fill some holes with vets, but overall he keeps a lot of talent on the field compared to most organizations. He also had the stones to trade Favre at just the right time to have Rodgers flourish.

MM's assistants haven't won. McAdoo finally has made the playoffs, but was spotted a 2 time superbowl champ at QB. MM's "assistant head coach" Winston Moss is on nobody's list despite MM insisting he is the shit. Philbin completely lost that dolphins team. MM seems to have been more influenced from the Schottenheimer tree than the Walsh tree when you watch him count possessions and burn clock instead of putting teams away. MM is brilliant at developing young QB's, but as OC in SF he probably had input in drafting Alex Smith ahead of Rodgers so I question his judgement on certain issues. He also refused to start certain players that excelled after injuries forced his hand.

I blame both of MM and TT for AJ Hawk being a starter for so long.


MM's coaching tree is certainly of the Charlie Brown variety. McAdoo, Philbin and Jag went on the be head coaches, not a lot after a 10 years. I'm not sure if there are some former assistants have gone on to become co-ordinators.

[pbmax]

I agree with the overall assessment, but I think its closer than your writeup suggests.

Thompson has some blindspots when it comes to drafting talent. ILB and D lineman who can pass rush are the bane of his drafting record. I largely give Trgo a pass, perhaps unearned, because he has had success with lineman elsewhere. T2 also took forever to find another QB.

Not sure how much the "tree" counts. It probably does signify some level of talent on hand in your staff.

McCarthy may have had a hand in taking Alex Smith, but that kid hasn't been the catastrophe that he first appeared to be. A lot of people have made similar mistakes on QBs early. But he made the right call on both Favre and Rodgers as pros and that counts for more in this organization. So I count his QB scouting eye as a win, even if we blame him for Ingle Martin, Graham Harrell and BJ Coleman.

M3 takes a lot of heat off Thompson as he is the only guy talking during the season. He keeps his team together and playing well; he just doesn't see his team go into the tank very often. That takes strength of character over this long a period of time. He can be stubborn, but that also means he stays in charge. I think the Schottenheimer charge is legit in that possessions are looked at on one level only, rather than probability.

Going into a game as an underdog produces some of his best results, which tells me he can coach his way to wins. I do wish the organization took a more structured approach to improving their own coaches, but its hard to argue with their success. I think only Schneider and Carroll work as well together and only GM Bill Coach Belichick do better consistently.

[Pugger]

Ted's GM tree has produced some gentlemen who are doing pretty well with their own clubs (Seattle, Oakland and KC).

[BZnDallas]

My issue with TT is his stubbornness in the FA area. I understand the few free agents he has brought in and the success they have had. Which in my opinion means he should be using it more. Free agency is one of three ways to improve your football team (draft, FA, trades?). When a player in a position of need signs with another team and says in the media he was waiting to hear from the Packers because he always wanted to play for them, but his phone never rang. I feel like TT didn't do his job. A simple phone call to see what his number was? That's not exploring ALL avenues to make this franchise better. For that I think he didn't do his job and think it's possible this game might have passed him by. Especially with the talks about his retirement already. We learned from Holmgren about that mess. And if it is that time I think it might also be time for Elliot to take over.

My issue with MM is his stubbornness in his play calling, his adjustments and/or lack there of at times in the second half and his no killer instinct at the end of games. And I cant forget his challenge flag use. Its like watching two different teams out there. One team in the early part of the game Mike wants his offense to run a certain way. And he will keep trying to succeed until the team is down a couple scores. Then things change, he gets creative and the offense gets in gear and its a rush against time to beat the other team. Sometimes it works and a lot of the times it doesn't. The second team is the one where the offense is humming from the start. Aaron is throwing the ball, he's hitting 5 and 6 different receivers the first quarter and a half, and the running game is slicing the defense. Then Mike's team is up 4 or 5 scores and he tries to run the clock out. This is where 1 of 2 things happen. The Packers either go on to blow the opponent out, or the defense decides to play prevent and its a race against time to hold on to the victory because the offense goes stale and the defense shits itself.

Both of these men however did bring a championship to the organization. I can live with MMs issues. That is head coaching bull shit. He's juggling a bunch of stuff trying to impose his will which isn't necessarily a bad thing even though he knows what works. For my reasons stated above, I think its time to make TT an adviser and bring in Elliot Wolf. I think he understands the importance of the draft and develop way of building a team and staying competitive in todays NFL for the smallest market team in pro sports. But I also think he would utilize the way his dad used free agency to build his teams back in free agencies infancy. But thats just one guys opinion.

[RashanGary]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

[BZnDallas]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

Thats solid reasoning enough for me. I mean its not like he's lived it his whole life. I'm sure he'd never get advice from his father, and in my scenario TT as he was still on the team in an adviser roll. That obviously remains to be seen. But no, no, punching the stupid out of his face is more sound.

[RashanGary]

Thats solid reasoning enough for me. I mean its not like he's lived it his whole life. I'm sure he'd never get advice from his father, and in my scenario TT as he was still on the team in an adviser roll. That obviously remains to be seen. But no, no, punching the stupid out of his face is more sound.

I had a bad day at work and I hate the name Elliot :)

People kept trying to replace bahktiari last year. I felt the same way.

[Joemailman]

Getting rid of probably the best GM in football for some random dude because he has a last name that people associate with exaggerated success because the Packers were losers so long, finally winning felt greater than it was........

Um, no thanks. Thompson is better than wolfs dad, so the odds of his random ass son being on that level are somewhere between no and no way. It could happen. I highly doubt it.

Just the name Elliot. He sounds and looks like such a pussy. I just want to punch the overrated stupid out of his face.

Except that TT keeps promoting Wolf. Given the track record of some of TT's past assistants (Schneider, McKenzie, Dorsey), it would seem TT has an eye for talent in this area.

[pbmax]

Except that TT keeps promoting Wolf. Given the track record of some of TT's past assistants (Schneider, McKenzie, Dorsey), it would seem TT has an eye for talent in this area.

That is what keeps me from hating the choice as a weird form of nepotism once removed.

[RashanGary]

Let's just keep the best GM in football for a couple years till he's ready to hang up the clipboard and travel bags. Elliot wolf is a young man. The Packers job is the most authoritative GM position in the NFL. No meddling owner. If he wants to run off to some other place, see ya. He'll sit tight though. Thompson is an old man. He has 5 years max in him I'm guessing and Elliot is in a great position to take over the best job in football.

[Rutnstrut]

It's no secret that I am no fan of stubby. However I think he would flourish even more away from TT and with a GM that wasn't so stubborn. I'm not saying that GB needs someone that will go nuts in free agency/trades etc... But instead of 99.7.45% draft and develop, someone that would be willing to go down to 90% when other opportunities arise.

[bobblehead]

I agree with the overall assessment, but I think its closer than your writeup suggests.



I also think its closer and MM overall is a very good coach. However, I was making a case :)

[bobblehead]

Both of these men however did bring a championship to the organization. I can live with MMs issues. That is head coaching bull shit. He's juggling a bunch of stuff trying to impose his will which isn't necessarily a bad thing even though he knows what works. For my reasons stated above, I think its time to make TT an adviser and bring in Elliot Wolf. I think he understands the importance of the draft and develop way of building a team and staying competitive in todays NFL for the smallest market team in pro sports. But I also think he would utilize the way his dad used free agency to build his teams back in free agencies infancy. But thats just one guys opinion.

3 points.
1) We have no idea if Elliot wolf will be a good GM or not.
2) We have no idea if TT will stick around or become GM of the Bears instead :shock:
3) Ron Wolf utilized FA in a short term win now capacity in an era of no salary cap and had the luxury of the single greatest player in history being available and offering said player the most money which God told said player to accept.

[bobblehead]

I had a bad day at work and I hate the name Elliot :)

People kept trying to replace bahktiari last year. I felt the same way.

I would love to replace Bahk, but there are only so many Joe Thomas on the planet.

[bobblehead]

Let's just keep the best GM in football for a couple years till he's ready to hang up the clipboard and travel bags. Elliot wolf is a young man. The Packers job is the most authoritative GM position in the NFL. No meddling owner. If he wants to run off to some other place, see ya. He'll sit tight though. Thompson is an old man. He has 5 years max in him I'm guessing and Elliot is in a great position to take over the best job in football.

My dream scenario is that TT hangs in there for about, oh say 5 years, which lines up with Wisconsin native John Schneider's contract being up.

[texaspackerbacker]

If the question is who is responsible for the Packers decade(s) of success, the answer is primarily neither Thompson or McCarthy. The answer, of course, is Aaron Rodgers - and Brett Favre before him. You could say that means Ted Thompson who drafted him - and Wolf before him who brought Favre, but especially in the case of Thompson, I would argue the that the blind squirrel principle applies here.

The Packers are so successful almost entirely because of the play of Aaron Rodgers, DESPITE the questionable at best play calling and game planning of McCarthy and the failure of Thompson to maximize the talent level around Rodgers. I have said, overall winning is more important than post-season, Super Bowls won, etc. The fact is, though, we coulda/woulda/SHOULDA won a LOT more regular season and post season in the Rodgers era if things had been maximized.

[RashanGary]

My dream scenario is that TT hangs in there for about, oh say 5 years, which lines up with Wisconsin native John Schneider's contract being up.

I would take this scenerio and I wouldn't change it a bit. In fact, if Schneider comes available, I'd respectfully and appreciatively let TT go and hire Schneider. I don't see one being much better than the other and Schneider is younger.

[RashanGary]

I would love to replace Bahk, but there are only so many Joe Thomas on the planet.

I might be wrong on bahk. But might you also be wrong? Is it possible you just missed on a good player because you had a prebuilt idea of what he was? I never try to trust my mind 100% it's failed me too many times. I respect your views. Just want to make sure you know your limitations (same ones we all have) before I waste future time shooting the shit about the OL (my new found passion :) ) Nothing feels like a bigger waste of time than a discussion with someone who's so concerned with being right rather than adjusting to right thinking (something I try to do.)

[BZnDallas]

3 points.
1) We have no idea if Elliot wolf will be a good GM or not.
2) We have no idea if TT will stick around or become GM of the Bears instead :shock:
3) Ron Wolf utilized FA in a short term win now capacity in an era of no salary cap and had the luxury of the single greatest player in history being available and offering said player the most money which God told said player to accept.

1) No, we don't. And we didn't know if MM was HC material either. You usually don't know if anybody is going to be good or not. Is that a reason to never make a change?
2) No, we don't. But we had a HoF qb at the beginning of TTs tenure. Making it easier to fix the cap and still remain competitive. It would take TT much longer to fix the bares. And since retirement rumors have already begun, I don't see that happening. But that's just my thought on this topic.
3) Reggie wasn't the only FA brought in by Wolf, although yes he is the greatest known free agent signing. Didn't think I need to put time limits on Ron's free agent spending. My point was that he spent and TT rarely does.

I'm not saying TT isn't a good/great GM. My overall point was I didn't think TT did everything possible to make this team better. A few years back we talked how this man left no stone unturned. Bringing in guys from the smallest of schools, or from rugby leagues, or wherever. Now he's not even making phone calls to find out about players and their price tag. Of the two, TT and MM, bc of this reason, I'd choose MM to stay outright and ask TT to take on advising role. No guarantee, but this was the hypothetical I was given.

[BZnDallas]

I might be wrong on bahk. But might you also be wrong? Is it possible you just missed on a good player because you had a prebuilt idea of what he was? I never try to trust my mind 100% it's failed me too many times. I respect your views. Just want to make sure you know your limitations (same ones we all have) before I waste future time shooting the shit about the OL (my new found passion :) ) Nothing feels like a bigger waste of time than a discussion with someone who's so concerned with being right rather than adjusting to right thinking (something I try to do.)

This may be the most honest post in the history of the internet. Not blaming or pointing fingers at anybody, because I think we've all run into people like this.

[beveaux1]

I'm assuming you're talking about Vernon Davis who said he was not approached by Green Bay after he was not re-signed by the Broncos, even though he wanted and expected a call. I think that might more be a case of TT not thinking there was much left in the tank. He didn't play well at Denver and hasn't really played that well at Washington. TT chose to go a different route and signed Cook. There might have been another player that made that claim but I can't recall it. In any case, it's been said that TT has kicked the tires of more free agents than we know of, but if their value and his valuation doesn't match, they don't sign here.

[BZnDallas]

I'm assuming you're talking about Vernon Davis who said he was not approached by Green Bay after he was not re-signed by the Broncos, even though he wanted and expected a call. I think that might more be a case of TT not thinking there was much left in the tank. He didn't play well at Denver and hasn't really played that well at Washington. TT chose to go a different route and signed Cook. There might have been another player that made that claim but I can't recall it. In any case, it's been said that TT has kicked the tires of more free agents than we know of, but if their value and his valuation doesn't match, they don't sign here.

I didn't think Vernon Davis wanted any part of playing in GB. Thought he always hated the idea of playing in the cold or for whatever reason. I could be mistaken however. I was actually referring to Danny Travethan (sp?), MLB after he signed with Chicago. Yes he got hurt and IR'd but you can't assume those injuries would happen anywhere he went. Time and circumstance. And it was a position of need he ended up using a draft pick on in Blake Martinez. Not that I have any issue with Blake, he was more than solid for a rookie. If memory serves me correctly Travethan was only 28 at the time as well. All the more reason to pick up the phone and at the very least make a call and see what his number is. Look under every stone, right?

[beveaux1]

Forgot about Trevathen. Like guard, ILB is not a place that most teams like to spend a large cap number on, especially in a 3-4 defense. I don't know what Denver offered, but he signed for over 6 mil per year. If Denver offered 4 or so, and he didn't take it, that might have been too rich for us. Never know what a GM is thinking.

[bobblehead]

I might be wrong on bahk. But might you also be wrong? Is it possible you just missed on a good player because you had a prebuilt idea of what he was? I never try to trust my mind 100% it's failed me too many times. I respect your views. Just want to make sure you know your limitations (same ones we all have) before I waste future time shooting the shit about the OL (my new found passion :) ) Nothing feels like a bigger waste of time than a discussion with someone who's so concerned with being right rather than adjusting to right thinking (something I try to do.)

No, I'm pretty sure I am good at being honest with myself. I still poke fun of the fact I thought Allen Babre would be an all pro guard. Bahk lacks certain things to be a dominant LT, but he has utilized what he has very well.

What I said remains dead accurate. You would like a Joe Thomas at LT, but they are about 5 on the planet at a time. Bahk has steadily improved from a bottom 5 LT in the league to probably around middle of the road. You can win with that, especially if you have a rodgers.

[Tony Oday]

Name 10 better than Bahk. He keeps AR clean, can't run block great but pass pro is on point.

[Guiness]

Name 10 better than Bahk. He keeps AR clean, can't run block great but pass pro is on point.

I'll bite. I think there are 10. I do think Bakh is a good LT, and suited for the Packers O, but I think he's 10-15, not top 10.

Elite LTs right now - Thomas, Smith, Stayley, Whitworth and Trent Williams.

Next level are Armstead, Jason Peters, Okung and Cordy Glenn. One last one is tough, I'd have to say Duane Brown. Admitedly, Okung might be just name recognition now, but what seen a little and read that Oakland's LT, Penn, is up there too.

[Patler]

McGinn had an article a week ago. He had "two high-ranking personnel men for AFC teams" choose between Bakhtiari and each of the 31 other starting LTs if they needed to win a game now.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2016/12/23/mcginn-pass-protector-bakhtiari-bargain/95803636/

One had Bakhtiari tied for 10th, the other had him tied for 12th.

Just seven were picked over Bakhtiari by both: Trent Williams, Jason Peters, Tyron Smith, Joe Staley, Cordy Glenn, Joe Thomas & Taylor Lewan.

Branden Albert, Duane Brown & Eric Fisher were picked over Bakhtiari by one, and tied with him by the other.
Ereck Flowers, Jake Matthews & Russell Okung were picked over Bakhtiari by one, but the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Terron Armstead & Nate Solder were considered tied with Bakhtiari by one of the men, the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Bakhtlari was picked by both over the other 16 LTs

That seems to put him tied with about a half dozen others for the second tier below the top 7-10 guys.
.

[BZnDallas]

Forgot about Trevathen. Like guard, ILB is not a place that most teams like to spend a large cap number on, especially in a 3-4 defense. I don't know what Denver offered, but he signed for over 6 mil per year. If Denver offered 4 or so, and he didn't take it, that might have been too rich for us. Never know what a GM is thinking.

I understand all of that. My issue is TT didn't even pick up the phone and see what the number was. Yes Chicago signed him for 4 for 24.5. That is not a lot of money for a 26 year old stud MLB. Especially with the growth of the cap year after year.

[Pugger]

I understand all of that. My issue is TT didn't even pick up the phone and see what the number was. Yes Chicago signed him for 4 for 24.5. That is not a lot of money for a 26 year old stud MLB. Especially with the growth of the cap year after year.

How can you be certain?

[bobblehead]

Name 10 better than Bahk. He keeps AR clean, can't run block great but pass pro is on point.

First of all, you are dead wrong on Bahk. His run blocking is his strength as an LT. The more you let him maul his guy, the better he gets in pass.

1) Joe Thomas-the gold standart right now
2) Tyrone Smith-One of the few better run blockers than Bahk...as the one eyed raven told young stark..."much better" Lets call him the Sir Arthur Dayne or run blocking LT.
3) Andre Whitworth-Getting older, but making several pro bowls of late. Rounded.
4) Joe Staley-About the only good player left on the 49ers.
5) Jason Peters-Another oldie who keeps chugging along
6) Trent Williams-Builds Trumps wall on the left side to the QB. No mexicans sacking Cousins on his watch.
7) Terron Armstead-I admit, never watch him play, but he is mentioned amongst leagues elites at LT
8) Donald Penn-Simply a mountain of a man. A Big part of the reason the Raiders are renewed.
9) Eric Fischer-I thought he was a bust early on. I think he was a converted TE in college so his growth may have been behind. The footwork...my goodness for a guy who is at least 6' 7"
10) Brandon Albert-Getting up there as well. He can still round out a nice top 10 list.

I defy anyone to tell me TT wouldn't trade Bahk straight up for anyone on this list.

[bobblehead]

McGinn had an article a week ago. He had "two high-ranking personnel men for AFC teams" choose between Bakhtiari and each of the 31 other starting LTs if they needed to win a game now.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2016/12/23/mcginn-pass-protector-bakhtiari-bargain/95803636/

One had Bakhtiari tied for 10th, the other had him tied for 12th.

Just seven were picked over Bakhtiari by both: Trent Williams, Jason Peters, Tyron Smith, Joe Staley, Cordy Glenn, Joe Thomas & Taylor Lewan.

Branden Albert, Duane Brown & Eric Fisher were picked over Bakhtiari by one, and tied with him by the other.
Ereck Flowers, Jake Matthews & Russell Okung were picked over Bakhtiari by one, but the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Terron Armstead & Nate Solder were considered tied with Bakhtiari by one of the men, the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Bakhtlari was picked by both over the other 16 LTs

That seems to put him tied with about a half dozen others for the second tier below the top 7-10 guys.
.

The 2 unanamous guys play for Titans and Bills. 2 teams I also never watch. Now I have reason. Jake Mathews isn't all that. Don't see why someone picked him. I'll take Bahk over him.

[bobblehead]

That seems to put him tied with about a half dozen others for the second tier below the top 7-10 guys.
.

Which I concur with. Middle of the road. Clearly better than bottom 10, clearly inferior to top 10 (or 7 as you say).

[Guiness]

McGinn had an article a week ago. He had "two high-ranking personnel men for AFC teams" choose between Bakhtiari and each of the 31 other starting LTs if they needed to win a game now.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2016/12/23/mcginn-pass-protector-bakhtiari-bargain/95803636/

One had Bakhtiari tied for 10th, the other had him tied for 12th.

Just seven were picked over Bakhtiari by both: Trent Williams, Jason Peters, Tyron Smith, Joe Staley, Cordy Glenn, Joe Thomas & Taylor Lewan.

Branden Albert, Duane Brown & Eric Fisher were picked over Bakhtiari by one, and tied with him by the other.
Ereck Flowers, Jake Matthews & Russell Okung were picked over Bakhtiari by one, but the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Terron Armstead & Nate Solder were considered tied with Bakhtiari by one of the men, the other picked Bakhtiari over them.

Bakhtlari was picked by both over the other 16 LTs

That seems to put him tied with about a half dozen others for the second tier below the top 7-10 guys.
.

I'm surprised Whitworth wasn't mentioned at all.

[Patler]

I'm surprised Whitworth wasn't mentioned at all.

Whitworth was mentioned by name, because both guys picked Bakhtiari over him:


Among the 16 players defeated by Bakhtiari, 2-0, were Donald Penn of Oakland, the other Pro Bowl selection, and Cincinnati’s Andrew Whitworth, a Pro Bowl choice last year.

[run pMc]

Division champs 5 out of 6 years, playoffs for 8 straight. TT and M3 must be doing something right.

[Joemailman]

Division champs 5 out of 6 years, playoffs for 8 straight. TT and M3 must be doing something right.

Kool-Aid drinker.

[call_me_ishmael]

No, I'm pretty sure I am good at being honest with myself. I still poke fun of the fact I thought Allen Babre would be an all pro guard. Bahk lacks certain things to be a dominant LT, but he has utilized what he has very well.

What I said remains dead accurate. You would like a Joe Thomas at LT, but they are about 5 on the planet at a time. Bahk has steadily improved from a bottom 5 LT in the league to probably around middle of the road. You can win with that, especially if you have a rodgers.

Baloney. Bahk will be a pro bowler going forward. He is ranked by PFF as the #1 pass blocking LT in the league, and as you know it's a passing league.

[texaspackerbacker]

We in here and a lot of commentators and media people too tend to judge TT-acquired players, particularly Bakhtiari and the O Line in general by comparing them to what we have had the past few years, and undeniably, by that standard, our current O Line, including Bakhtiari are extremely good. However ......., the mobility and ability to pass accurately while scrambling of Aaron Rodgers is what MAKES the O Line's reputation as pass blockers. Even last week - like basically every other week - the opposing QB had a helluva lot more time to just drop back and throw than our QB. I'm not complaining much, as we now seem to be back to winning games and putting up big offensive numbers that way, but good grief, how good could it be if the line didn't let those pass rushers come roaring through in way too little time? Heaven help us if we ever have to use anybody else at QB behind that O Line.

[beveaux1]

We in here and a lot of commentators and media people too tend to judge TT-acquired players, particularly Bakhtiari and the O Line in general by comparing them to what we have had the past few years, and undeniably, by that standard, our current O Line, including Bakhtiari are extremely good. However ......., the mobility and ability to pass accurately while scrambling of Aaron Rodgers is what MAKES the O Line's reputation as pass blockers. Even last week - like basically every other week - the opposing QB had a helluva lot more time to just drop back and throw than our QB. I'm not complaining much, as we now seem to be back to winning games and putting up big offensive numbers that way, but good grief, how good could it be if the line didn't let those pass rushers come roaring through in way too little time? Heaven help us if we ever have to use anybody else at QB behind that O Line.

This offensive line is excellent at pass blocking. Rodgers is one of the best in the league at extending plays, but, generally when he begins extending the play he has had sufficient time in the pocket. Ask Bradford, Manning, Big Ben, Newton, or Brees if they could play behind this line and I believe the answer would be a resounding "yes".

[texaspackerbacker]

This offensive line is excellent at pass blocking. Rodgers is one of the best in the league at extending plays, but, generally when he begins extending the play he has had sufficient time in the pocket. Ask Bradford, Manning, Big Ben, Newton, or Brees if they could play behind this line and I believe the answer would be a resounding "yes".

I disagree. As I said, they are MUCH better this year than in the past, and I will give them a lot of credit for the "scramble drill" - adjusting when Rodgers is forced out of the pocket and blocking then, but where they fall way short is stopping the initial pass rush - letting people past them and putting quick pressure on the QB, forcing him to scramble. Bradford and Eli would be dead with this line; Big Ben would be taking hits and maybe standing stout and throwing; Brees I don't think is very mobile - he too would suffer badly. Newton might be able to pull off what Rodgers does, but I don't think he'd be able to pass as accurately on the run.

[pbmax]

I disagree. As I said, they are MUCH better this year than in the past, and I will give them a lot of credit for the "scramble drill" - adjusting when Rodgers is forced out of the pocket and blocking then, but where they fall way short is stopping the initial pass rush - letting people past them and putting quick pressure on the QB, forcing him to scramble. Bradford and Eli would be dead with this line; Big Ben would be taking hits and maybe standing stout and throwing; Brees I don't think is very mobile - he too would suffer badly. Newton might be able to pull off what Rodgers does, but I don't think he'd be able to pass as accurately on the run.

I agree with tex's point, to a point. I think this line can be had by blitzing. You can confuse Lane Taylor and especially the newly minted running back corp with a variety of blitzes.

TJ Lang is also playing quite banged up and doesn't have his normal range. McGinn made mention of this fact in his grades column today.

If you line up with 4 and rush with simple stunts, its not going to work.

[Fritz]

I do think blitzing has been more effective against this offense than in the past, for the reasons PB mentions. I am hoping MM is preparing for such a scenario and getting Montgomery set up with some screens - and that the dude practices his blitz pickup a little better.

[run pMc]

It's an above average pass blocking line and a below average run blocking line IMO.
Rodgers had almost 9 seconds to throw to Allison in the end zone. If the Packers D let Russell Wilson scramble around that long and throw a TD fans and forum posters alike would be calling for Capers' head on a pike...so yes, it's a good pass blocking line this year, most QB's would love to throw behind it, and if you believe in those crazy sites, I think PFF is the one that seems to agree.

[Joemailman]

It's an above average pass blocking line and a below average run blocking line IMO.
Rodgers had almost 9 seconds to throw to Allison in the end zone. If the Packers D let Russell Wilson scramble around that long and throw a TD fans and forum posters alike would be calling for Capers' head on a pike...so yes, it's a good pass blocking line this year, most QB's would love to throw behind it, and if you believe in those crazy sites, I think PFF is the one that seems to agree.

Why do you think it's a below average run blocking line? They're 7th in the NFL in YPC. And that's with their leading rusher being a converted WR. Lacy was averaging over 5 YPC before he got hurt.

[Fritz]

This must mean they had a lot of depth at running back after all!

[vince]

Why do you think it's a below average run blocking line? They're 7th in the NFL in YPC. And that's with their leading rusher being a converted WR. Lacy was averaging over 5 YPC before he got hurt.
That converted WR has the highest Average Yards after Contact for a RB and Elusiveness Rating in the league I believe.

EDIT: All-time single-season leader, albeit limited opportunities

Most likely to drag a defender (https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-pffs-2016-season-superlatives/)
2016 season: RB Ty Montgomery (Packers), 5.1 yards after contact per attempt

Previous single-season record: RB Michael Turner (Chargers), 4.8 yards after contact per attempt (2006)

Obviously this is a record that can only be realistically broken on a limited number of touches, but averaging over 5 yards after contact is extremely impressive for a single game, let alone for 72 carries, as Montgomery did. He broke 18 tackles on those 72 carries, and his 116.4 elusive rating was also tops among all running backs. Not bad for a guy who started the season as a wideout.

[bobblehead]

I'm surprised Whitworth wasn't mentioned at all.

Whitworth developed slow. Most GM's have an opinion of him based off his play several seasons ago. He is better than Bahk right here and now.

[bobblehead]

Baloney. Bahk will be a pro bowler going forward. He is ranked by PFF as the #1 pass blocking LT in the league, and as you know it's a passing league.

I don't agree with that assessment. Rodgers makes him look much better. I doubt any single GM in all of football agrees with that assessment, so take it for what its worth. Anyone who honestly thinks bahk is a better pass blocker than Trent Williams...well, pass that shit my way.

[vince]

I would love to replace Bahk, but there are only so many Joe Thomas on the planet.
Bakh (25) may not be better than Williams (28) or Whitworth (35), but I think you're grossly undervaluing him bobble. Perhaps you're holding onto your assessments from earlier years. He's gotten much stronger, without sacrificing movement, this year, and has been lockdown. His play this year has elevated him to near elite at minimum. Yeah he moves around well, but the way Rodgers holds onto the ball, he doesn't do his linemen a lot of favors, requiring them to sustain their blocks for that much longer.


2016 PFF All-Pro Team (https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-2016-pff-all-pro-team/)

Left tackle
First team: Trent Williams, Washington Redskins, 92.8 (No. 1 OT)
Second team: David Bakhtiari, Green Bay Packers, 90.8 (No. 3 OT)

Despite missing time due to suspension, Trent Williams still posted the best overall grade of any tackle in the game, and allowed a total of just 16 QB pressures across 12 starts. He was a dominant force both pass protecting and run blocking, and even moonlighted at guard when injuries forced a reshuffle along the Washington line during a game. This was the best play of Williams’ career, and the first time we have seen him fulfill his potential since he was the league’s best tackle back in the 2013 season. David Bakhtiari gets the second-team nod thanks to an outstanding season of pass blocking, taking a huge step forward in his play.

Honorable mention: Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati Bengals, 91.3 (No. 2 OT)
PFF has Bakh rated as the #1 pass protector at LT, which I don't have access to but I assume takes into account opponents, pass rate, etc.

Bakh has cut his holding penalties (3) and sacks (3) in half to career bests this year.

By comparison,
Williams has 3 holding calls and 1 sack allowed.
Whitworth has 2 holds and 0 sacks allowed.
Tyron Smith - 4 holds and 2 sacks allowed
Joe Thomas - 1 hold and 3.5 sacks
Staley - 1 hold and 5 sacks allowed
Peters - 1 hold and 2 sacks allowed
Okung - 6 holds and 4 sacks
Glenn - 2 holds and 2.5 sacks allowed
Donald Penn - 3 holds and 2 sacks allowed

Obviously there's more to it than the raw stats but it's a start.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd like to see a stat if one exists on QB "hurries" or time forced out of the pocket attributable to a particular O Lineman. That is my gripe - although much decreased from previous years - that the Packers O Line lets pass rushers through too quickly. The fact that Bakhtiari has allowed only 3 sacks could be and probably is the result of Rodgers' wonderful mobility.

[bobblehead]

Bakh (25) may not be better than Williams (28) or Whitworth (35), but I think you're grossly undervaluing him bobble. Perhaps you're holding onto your assessments from earlier years. He's gotten much stronger, without sacrificing movement, this year, and has been lockdown. His play this year has elevated him to near elite at minimum. Yeah he moves around well, but the way Rodgers holds onto the ball, he doesn't do his linemen a lot of favors, requiring them to sustain their blocks for that much longer.



Or its also possible that I am biased to having a dominant OL as it makes everyone look good. I have said Bahk has gone from bottom 5 to middle of the road. 2 GMS had 7 LT unanimously better than Bahk. They didn't even put Whitworth on that list (as THEY have held onto previous assessments.) I think I am fair to Bahk. You can certainly win with him. I just think we paid him like Trent Williams or Joe Thomas and honestly, no matter what PFF says he isn't in their class. Have you ever focused on Williams punch?

Edit: Remember, Joe Thomas is blocking for...shit, I don't even know who anymore.

[call_me_ishmael]

Okay, so he is in the top 20ish percent. Pretty dang good. Why debate semantics? It'll be interesting to see where GMs rank him in a year or two when his reputation has spread more. He's a fine player.

[vince]

Bakh will never be a mauler but that doesn't mean he's not as or more effective than many of the behemoths. Williams is clearly elite and he does it his way but who cares how you do it if it's highly successful at achieving the objective?

[Pugger]

Being primarily a passing team it is fortuitous that our tackles grade out well in this area.

[pbmax]

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 30m30 minutes ago
TT picked Rodgers to stick it to Favre and TT ended up getting it right despite himself, or by accident!

[texaspackerbacker]

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 30m30 minutes ago
TT picked Rodgers to stick it to Favre and TT ended up getting it right despite himself, or by accident!

If this is actually to be believed, it is a bigger indictment of Ted than just about anything I've ever heard: the crowning achievement of his career - the thing that MADE the success he has had, in spite of arguably doing way too little otherwise to create success, and it was NOT done out of sharp judging of Rodgers' talent, but only to "stick it to Favre"? I'd have to see some evidence to believe this - and I'm far from a supporter of Ted.

[vince]

If this is actually to be believed, it is a bigger indictment of Ted than just about anything I've ever heard: the crowning achievement of his career - the thing that MADE the success he has had, in spite of arguably doing way too little otherwise to create success, and it was NOT done out of sharp judging of Rodgers' talent, but only to "stick it to Favre"? I'd have to see some evidence to believe this - and I'm far from a supporter of Ted.
Don't believe much of what you read from JSComments section Tex. PB posts those for the comic relief. Most of them suffer from TDS - Ted Derangement Syndrome. They make red seem like an apologist by comparison.

TDS has a profound effect on the victims' perspective on the Packers. Sufferers begin to develop an unrealistically heightened sense of self, and speak a distinctive language characterized by exaggerated opinion, oversimplified hyperbole and conspiracy theories against Favre and Packer greatness itself.

In the advanced stages of the disease, the afflicted lose touch with reality altogether. Opinion becomes unmoored from fact, they see themselves as self-anointed experts in NFL general management philosophy, and Ted's only motivation is to take down the franchise altogether. And there is no cure. Neither division championships nor even Super Bowl trophies can overcome it.

[Guiness]

It's an above average pass blocking line and a below average run blocking line IMO.
Rodgers had almost 9 seconds to throw to Allison in the end zone. If the Packers D let Russell Wilson scramble around that long and throw a TD fans and forum posters alike would be calling for Capers' head on a pike...so yes, it's a good pass blocking line this year, most QB's would love to throw behind it, and if you believe in those crazy sites, I think PFF is the one that seems to agree.

Have to disagree with this. Lacy averaged around 5 yards a carry, and Montgomery is getting 5.9 (!). I don't know enough about line play to evaluate them, but I know enough that OJ himself couldn't get that kind of an average behind a poor line.

[vince]

Monty' 5.9 YPC is bouyed by 5.1 YAC. I'm not saying they're a bad run blocking unit but I would say the unit's strength is pass protection, which for this team carries a premium for sure.

[pbmax]

If this is actually to be believed, it is a bigger indictment of Ted than just about anything I've ever heard: the crowning achievement of his career - the thing that MADE the success he has had, in spite of arguably doing way too little otherwise to create success, and it was NOT done out of sharp judging of Rodgers' talent, but only to "stick it to Favre"? I'd have to see some evidence to believe this - and I'm far from a supporter of Ted.

Its a joke Twitter account Tex. They post the most insane ramblings from JSOnline forums and letters to the editor.

[Guiness]

Monty' 5.9 YPC is bouyed by 5.1 YAC. I'm not saying they're a bad run blocking unit but I would say the unit's strength is pass protection, which for this team carries a premium for sure.

Not sure how these relate? Do you mean that he's naturally good ball carrier and a chunk of those yards are due to him instead of the line?

[vince]

Not sure how these relate? Do you mean that he's naturally good ball carrier and a chunk of those yards are due to him instead of the line?
Without working though the veracity of this, I'm just suggesting that if Monty's averaging 5.9 yards a carry and 5.1 yards after contact per carry, he's getting contacted by a defender .8 yards from scrimmage on average, which suggests there haven't been many holes paved by the line for him to run through - on average.

[run pMc]

Have to disagree with this. Lacy averaged around 5 yards a carry, and Montgomery is getting 5.9 (!). I don't know enough about line play to evaluate them, but I know enough that OJ himself couldn't get that kind of an average behind a poor line.

Fair enough.
I'm going off of how transitioning from Cedric Benson/Ryan Grant/DuJuan Harris/Alex Green to Eddie Lacy and now Monty was a big change in terms of yardage. Lacy (when in shape) could grind out 3-4 yards where the line would give him zilch. Calling them below average run blocking is probably unfair, let's call them average at best. Mentioning the failed 4th down run by Ty vs. NYG is cherry picking...but this is a team where the passing game strikes fear in opponents, not the running game. Personally I'm ok with this, and think Bahktiari especially has been very good at pass pro. Rodgers buys a lot of time by moving around, but that line does a hell of a job.

[pbmax]

Bobby Reporter today:


GREEN BAY – The fascinating saga unfolding in the Green Bay Packers’ front office has many more twists to take and possibly several more years to pass before the team’s next general manager is in place.

All things considered, my foggy crystal ball sees John Dorsey returning to Green Bay from Kansas City and becoming the most likely successor to Ted Thompson.

Of course, this is jumping the gun. Sorry, but the story is just too delicious not to keep analyzing.

The third paragraph really gives away the pretense that the first paragraph is trying to hold. And if you are not convinced, then here is the eighteenth paragraph:


Some have speculated that Thompson would retire if the Packers win another Super Bowl. It’s possible, but more and more the expectations are that he intends to keep working.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2017/01/12/mcginn-dorsey-ideal-option-next-packers-gm/96489822/

[pbmax]

Is Bretsky Smarter Than the 3rd Grader running the 49ers?


In a surprising development, sources close to the interviewing process said Gutekunst, the Packers’ director of player personnel, has emerged as the more attractive candidate in the eyes of the 49ers than Wolf, the team’s director of football operations.

“(Gutekunst) just was really good in the interview,” one source said. “They were really impressed.”

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2017/01/12/mcginn-dorsey-ideal-option-next-packers-gm/96489822/

[bobblehead]

Who gets credit? The GM that has a kicker on the roster that can make a clutch 56 yarder or the moron coach who did the same thing he always does in that situation (run 2x to burn other teams TO's, lose yardage and beg arod to bail him out on 3rd and 13 whilst not stopping the clock please) and forces said kicker to be money from 56??

[denverYooper]

It takes a village.

[RashanGary]

It takes a village.

I like em both

[Bretsky]

Is Bretsky Smarter Than the 3rd Grader running the 49ers?



http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2017/01/12/mcginn-dorsey-ideal-option-next-packers-gm/96489822/


To be fair when Fritz though this would be funny Bretsky noted it will probably happen but since in SF it means nothing

[pbmax]

Who gets credit? The GM that has a kicker on the roster that can make a clutch 56 yarder or the moron coach who did the same thing he always does in that situation (run 2x to burn other teams TO's, lose yardage and beg arod to bail him out on 3rd and 13 whilst not stopping the clock please) and forces said kicker to be money from 56??

Seriously. There is less risk with running the ball and the clock will tick, but it doesn't guarantee you positive yardage. If you want to be that ultra conservative, kneel.

Seriously the Packers have been awful in short yardage the year when running.

[run pMc]

4th conference championship in 11 years for M3/TT. That's a pretty good record.

Also, how about M3 not icing Dan Bailey and actually using that timeout for the winning drive vs. the Jerrahs? (Disclaimer: I'm not a big fan of 'icing the kicker'.)

[Maxie the Taxi]

4th conference championship in 11 years for M3/TT. That's a pretty good record.

Also, how about M3 not icing Dan Bailey and actually using that timeout for the winning drive vs. the Jerrahs? (Disclaimer: I'm not a big fan of 'icing the kicker'.)I said it before and I'll say it again, that last second TO to negate the placekick is bush league. The NFL should outlaw it.