More Banjo: Conference @ Atlanta

[pbmax]

Al you need to know is that red and I debated McCarthy's quote halftime comments into the fourth quarter. And it wasn't because we were celebrating.

I should have started drinking Winter Skäl, instead of Satin Solitude.

The studs and duds thread is going to be a bloodbath.

I think there is a strong chance some Defensive coaches don't survive.

[Joemailman]

http://eegraphics.com/roadside/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ragbrai1.jpg

[pbmax]

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 27s27 seconds ago
Talked to shields. Still having symptoms but wants to play again.

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 4m4 minutes ago
Sam Shields at the game. Said he's still having concussion symptoms but feels much better. Said he hasn't given up on playing.

[pbmax]

The MMQB @theMMQB
Biggest offseason Q for Pack O: Rethink the offense? Put in some man-beaters? Can you keep relying on Rodgers to be epic game after game?

Oddly, while beating some very good defenses, this critique had disappeared. I think there is value in it, but it doesn't explain it all.

[Rutnstrut]

No reason for a studs/duds thread. The ONLY Packer stud in this game was Jordy.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The MMQB @theMMQB
Biggest offseason Q for Pack O: Rethink the offense? Put in some man-beaters? Can you keep relying on Rodgers to be epic game after game?

Oddly, while beating some very good defenses, this critique had disappeared. I think there is value in it, but it doesn't explain it all.

The defense needs to be retooled, bigly.

[pbmax]

Packers for some reason aren't posting the score or stats on Twitter.

[Joemailman]

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 27s27 seconds ago
Talked to shields. Still having symptoms but wants to play again.

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 4m4 minutes ago
Sam Shields at the game. Said he's still having concussion symptoms but feels much better. Said he hasn't given up on playing.

Still having symptoms 4 months later and he wants to keep playing? Packers need to release him for his own good.

[woodbuck27]

No reason for a studs/duds thread. The ONLY Packer stud in this game was Jordy.

I agree.

A courageous gut effort by Jordy Nelson.

[woodbuck27]

Packers for some reason aren't posting the score or stats on Twitter.

It is showing that we have 44 members here post game.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sam Shields at the game. Said he's still having concussion symptoms but feels much better.

Jesus. De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Jesus. De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.He's been smoking all afternoon probably.

[woodbuck27]

Jesus. De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

Awesome ! :-)

[pbmax]

No reason for a studs/duds thread. The ONLY Packer stud in this game was Jordy.

And that stud had a bad drop.

[pbmax]

Green Bay Packers ‏@packers 17m17 minutes ago

McCarthy: I'd first like to congratulate the @AtlantaFalcons. Tremendous victory.

McCarthy: Very proud of my football team. Can't say enough about the group of men I was privileged to coach. #GBvsATL

McCarthy: I can't say enough about Jordy Nelson & what he went through to get out there today. Credit to his toughness & character. #GBvsATL

McCarthy: This team provided a lot of great moments for me as a coach, our organization & hopefully our fans feel that way.

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 23m23 minutes ago
#Packers coach Mike McCarthy: "We ran into a buzz saw, and we didn't have enough to keep up with them."

[vince]

The defense needs to be retooled, bigly.
I'm onboard with that. I'd be OK with moving on from Shields, Peppers, Guion, Jones, and redo Matthews' and Burnett deals. They're overpaid for what they bring at this point IMO.

Sign Perry and a shutdown corner and draft an edge rusher and corner early, and let the rest of the young guys fight for their careers. Hyde can stay as a utility guy only if cheap.

I'd also be on board with a new DC.

[pbmax]

Green Bay Packers ‏@packers 9m9 minutes ago

Rodgers: I'm so proud of Jordy (Nelson). It's incredible that he was out there. #GBvsATL

Rodgers: We played a hot team. You've got to give them credit. Matt (Ryan) is playing incredible right now. #GBvsATL

Rodgers: Really proud of these guys. We battled. Had our backs against the wall for 8 weeks straight. Just came up a little short. #GBvsATL



EDIT to add:

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 2m2 minutes ago
Rodgers on window closing: "I still feel pretty young, I think I have a number of years left in me (where) I can play at a high level."

[pbmax]

I'm onboard with that. I'd be OK with moving on from Shields, Peppers, Guion, Jones, and redo Matthews' and Burnett deals. They're overpaid for what they bring at this point IMO.

Sign Perry and a shutdown corner and draft an edge rusher and corner early, and let the rest of the young guys fight for their careers. Hyde can stay as a utility guy only if cheap.

I'd also be on board with a new DC.

I am OK with Burnett. But need better coverage and pass rush. Also could still use ILB upgrade. Though when healthy, I think the 3 they have could get them by.

[pbmax]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2z98MpXEAEykOL.jpg:large

[Joemailman]

Thanks for the reminder.

[Bretsky]

I am OK with Burnett. But need better coverage and pass rush. Also could still use ILB upgrade. Though when healthy, I think the 3 they have could get them by.

I like Burnett. Our ILB's as they kind of suck; if getting by is what we're looking for we "might" be alright but it would be grand to have one we can say is above average.

[Iron Mike]

I'M THE BEST.....
http://www.totalpackers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Screen-Shot-2016-11-07-at-5.31.36-PM-750x400.jpg

Ummm, at this point, nooooooooo.......

[woodbuck27]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2z98MpXEAEykOL.jpg:large

That seemed like a 90 minute game.

I understand that some Packer fans ran out of barf bags.

[woodbuck27]

I'M THE BEST.....
http://www.totalpackers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Screen-Shot-2016-11-07-at-5.31.36-PM-750x400.jpg

Ummm, at this point, nooooooooo.......

and .... highly over paid !

[pbmax]

Thanks for the reminder.

We have procedures in place we must follow here at Banjo Inc.

[Pugger]

I'm not surprised Atlanta ran wild. With our slow defense and corners who are young kids who should be on the practice squad our only hope was Rodgers playing lights out. We had to match them score for score and hope we had the lead when time ran out. I'd wager our offense finally ran out of gas. It is hard to win 4/5 games in a row, let alone 10. Rip's fumble took whatever fight we had left out for good. It didn't help having players dropping like flies once again. Why in the hell do we have a MASH unit every damn season?

Something has to be done with this defense and we need a running game to take some of the heat off Rodgers. McCoach even admitted recently we are spoiled with AR. He wouldn't say we lean on him too much but we do. He is the best QB I've ever seen but even Superman can't do it alone.

[pittstang5]

I've said it before (a while ago) and I'll say it again. This team misses Nick Collins so much. The defense hasn't been close to what it was with him in the secondary.

What could have been.....

[Joemailman]

I've said it before (a while ago) and I'll say it again. This team misses Nick Collins so much. The defense hasn't been close to what it was with him in the secondary.

What could have been.....

That's not the difference. The Packers safety play is good enough. The difference is when Nick was playing the Packers had Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams and Sam Shields at CB.

[hoosier]

http://eegraphics.com/roadside/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ragbrai1.jpg

When was the banjo smashing moment?

[Rutnstrut]

I'm not surprised Atlanta ran wild. With our slow defense and corners who are young kids who should be on the practice squad our only hope was Rodgers playing lights out. We had to match them score for score and hope we had the lead when time ran out. I'd wager our offense finally ran out of gas. It is hard to win 4/5 games in a row, let alone 10. Rip's fumble took whatever fight we had left out for good. It didn't help having players dropping like flies once again. Why in the hell do we have a MASH unit every damn season?

Something has to be done with this defense and we need a running game to take some of the heat off Rodgers. McCoach even admitted recently we are spoiled with AR. He wouldn't say we lean on him too much but we do. He is the best QB I've ever seen but even Superman can't do it alone.

It wouldn't matter who they have at RB, stubby refuses to run the ball.

[King Friday]

That's not the difference. The Packers safety play is good enough. The difference is when Nick was playing the Packers had Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams and Sam Shields at CB.

And Matthews was actually making plays.

[bobblehead]

I am OK with Burnett. But need better coverage and pass rush. Also could still use ILB upgrade. Though when healthy, I think the 3 they have could get them by.

Either every DB on the field is wrong about looking for burnett to help or he is late to help way to often. Not sure which it is.

Also, Vince, I would not let go of Guion. He is solid for what we pay and ask of him. I would like to see the Peppers/shields money go to paying a good shutdown corner if one is available. Then every other guy can take a step down the rung and be more effective.

[pbmax]

That's not the difference. The Packers safety play is good enough. The difference is when Nick was playing the Packers had Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams and Sam Shields at CB.

And a pass rush.

[vince]

Either every DB on the field is wrong about looking for burnett to help or he is late to help way to often. Not sure which it is.

Also, Vince, I would not let go of Guion. He is solid for what we pay and ask of him. I would like to see the Peppers/shields money go to paying a good shutdown corner if one is available. Then every other guy can take a step down the rung and be more effective.
Yeah I don't disagree with Guion. And now that I look it up he's under contract for the next two years though he would cost less than $1 mil in dead cap to cut. I assumed he was playing under a 1-year deal and just speculating that Clark and Lowrey can step up so they can save some cap for the shutdown corner they desperately need. Cutting him would save $3 mil and they need that big body inside after letting Pennel go. I probably jumped the gun on him.

If they can come up with a defensive scheme that keeps Burnett in the box and/or singled up on the big pass-catching TE's, he's excellent there. I'm with you as well in saying he's not great as a 2-deep safety.

I'd like to see his $7 mil and Clay's $15.2 mil re-worked along with Shields' $9 mil ($12.125 cap less $3.125 dead money) taken off the books. Peppers' $10.5 comes off.

They'll need to find some more money, as they have over $13 mil in built-in increases for Cobb, Nelson, Bulaga, Daniels and Bakh. Those are likely to eat up the cap increase by themselves.

Lang's $6.2 comes off but Cook probably eats most of that right up.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/yearly/cap/

[red]

lang was crying on the sideline because he thinks he might have played his last game as a packer

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/01/23/t-j-lang-hopes-he-hasnt-played-final-game-with-packers/

what ever happened to TT letting sitton go so he could focus on signing all the other guys? has he done anything yet?

oh, and lang re broke a bone in his foot, he didn

[vince]

lang was crying on the sideline because he thinks he might have played his last game as a packer

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/01/23/t-j-lang-hopes-he-hasnt-played-final-game-with-packers/

what ever happened to TT letting sitton go so he could focus on signing all the other guys? has he done anything yet?

oh, and lang re broke a bone in his foot, he didn
He signed Bakh to a long-term deal shortly after...

[Pugger]

Green Bay Packers ‏@packers 9m9 minutes ago

Rodgers: I'm so proud of Jordy (Nelson). It's incredible that he was out there. #GBvsATL

Rodgers: We played a hot team. You've got to give them credit. Matt (Ryan) is playing incredible right now. #GBvsATL

Rodgers: Really proud of these guys. We battled. Had our backs against the wall for 8 weeks straight. Just came up a little short. #GBvsATL



EDIT to add:

Jason Wilde ‏@jasonjwilde 2m2 minutes ago
Rodgers on window closing: "I still feel pretty young, I think I have a number of years left in me (where) I can play at a high level."

If he can play as long as Manning, Favre and Brady he still has 5/6 years left.

[Pugger]

I like Burnett. Our ILB's as they kind of suck; if getting by is what we're looking for we "might" be alright but it would be grand to have one we can say is above average.

Ryan and Martinez are kinda young. They are pretty good at stuffing the run. We can win with them. We need help with edge rushers and at corner.

[Pugger]

And Matthews was actually making plays.

And Clay hasn't been healthy in weeks. I heard he is going to need surgery this offseason.

[Freak Out]

I was kinda pissed that M3 decided to kickoff to start the game this time around. I thought the Packers could have come out and scored early and set the tone.

[red]

As Datone Jones noted, Ryan's quick release was a major factor in the Packers' failing to apply pressure: "The ball was out too fast. They took the rush completely out of the game. Ball was thrown over our heads in 1.5, 2 seconds." Furthermore, the Packers were victimized repeatedly by blitzing corners, either from out wide or in the slot.

what a novel idea PB, getting the ball out quick

[pbmax]

what a novel idea PB, getting the ball out quick

And if that is what they are doing (and they weren't all that fast) you would think a well designed and executed defense could clog up the short zones.

[pbmax]

Bob McGinn's Rating the Packers piece: http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/mcginn/2017/01/24/mcginn-rating-packers-vs-falcons/96982038/


Falcons coach Dan Quinn went away from his base Cover 3 scheme to challenge the Packers with extensive man-to-man.

When healthy against anything less than top flight competition, Rodgers, pass protection and great receivers will extract a dear price from an opponent making this choice. The Falcons were not top flight competition so you KNEW what choice McCarthy would make. However, with backups at key position (RB, new Guard, new TE, and OL injuries during game) sometimes these elements can be compromised as was the case late in the season with blitz pickup. Pressure made the WR injuries play a bigger role. Mistakes ensured a first half shutout.

So once again, in a playoff game against a good foe, a game plan centered on one type of attack that was foiled failed to deliver enough to win. As bad as the defense was, the offense is just as much of a concern to me. If the game does not open as he planned, McCarthy doesn't have a plan C. They make adjustments, but because they are limited to just the stuff practiced all week, they won't fix a major miscalculation.

This is still the theme of the last 5 years, since the 49ers figured this out. Against man coverage, McCarthy's offense will struggle if you can compromise pass protection at all. Cover 2 guy Rod Marinelli finally figured this out in the second half of the Dallas game.

On Spriggs and Taylor


Lang was replaced by Jason Spriggs, who played 25 snaps at right guard and the last five at right tackle. The later the season went, the worse the rookie from Indiana played. His scorecard included two pressures and 1 ½ “bad” runs. He’s too weak to sustain in the run game and is an easy mark to get walked back in protection. On a line that became synchronized in its movement, Spriggs gets into awkward positions and gaps are created. He’s turning defenders loose way too often. He has a long, long way to go. It was telling that when Lane Taylor went out for good after 18 plays because of what he said was a sprained knee, line coach James Campen waved in Don Barclay instead of Spriggs. In 50 snaps, Barclay’s longest stint since Game 9, he didn’t yield a pressure or “bad” run. He sat square, displayed veteran savvy and had a fine combo block on a successful 2-point conversion.

[Deputy Nutz]

Packer Report ‏@PackerReport 27s27 seconds ago
Talked to shields. Still having symptoms but wants to play again.

Tom Silverstein ‏@TomSilverstein 4m4 minutes ago
Sam Shields at the game. Said he's still having concussion symptoms but feels much better. Said he hasn't given up on playing.

That is because the cops took away his weed.

[pbmax]

There was no reason for Rodgers to look or play tired. People have the flu bug all the time and nobody even talks about it.

:roll: Bob would make a terrible diagnostician. He assumes that Jordy faded because of the ribs, fails to note Nelson had the same flu as Rodgers and "miss from 44 yards" Crosby.


Rodgers conversed with and seemingly complained to referee Bill Vinovich throughout the game. It probably irritated the Falcons’ defenders, who might have been even more eager to thwart him as a result. Super Bowl berths are hard to achieve with a franchise quarterback playing well below par.

:roll:


As a cold-weather team, the Packers need a big back with durability.

:roll: Sometimes I wonder if Bob remembers 1991 through 2000.


Guion is a thrasher who can’t get off the line of scrimmage anymore. His nine seasons are catching up to him.

If true, that is worrying considering prior to this year he might have been the second best interior power pass rusher.


The best player on defense either was Clay Matthews (57) or Daniels. Certainly, more should be expected from a player of Matthews’ caliber. He had an excellent first half, registering three knockdowns and one hurry, but was shut out in the second half. Dom Capers, who blitzed 29.3%, used Matthews six times in his stand-up “rover” role.

Matthews first half/second half would be consistent with someone still injured even thought he injury report doesn't make it seem like much (full participation)

[pbmax]

How bad was the game? One of McGinn's stars of the game was Don Barclay, who actually was pretty clean.

[vince]

PB you have no idea what the game plan going in was, or what adjustments were or were not made, or what they did or didn't practice all week. Period. The fact that the results were impacted by missed scoring opportunities and the defense repeatedly failing to stop the Falcons, thus forcing the Packers hand says nothing whatsoever about the Packers game planning or lack of adjustments. You're simply taking results and forcing a narrative to fit the story you want to tell.

[Rutnstrut]

PB you have no idea what the game plan going in was, or what adjustments were or were not made, or what they did or didn't practice all week. Period. The fact that the results were impacted by missed scoring opportunities and the defense repeatedly failing to stop the Falcons, thus forcing the Packers hand says nothing whatsoever about the Packers game planning or lack of adjustments. You're simply taking results and forcing a narrative to fit the story you want to tell.

Regardless of gameplan, the Packers sucked ass on Sunday.

[vince]

The Packers started the game with two strong drives that were both foiled by the missed field goal and the fumble. The next thing they knew they were down 17-0, which forced them to become more one-dimensional and allowed the falcons to pin their ears back.

Rodgers threw for 3 TD's with an INT and the team rushed for 99 yards but the game was over at that point due to the defense's inability to get any stops to help the Packers claw back into it.

Nothing the offense could or could not do would have had any impact, particularly when the defense begs you to run it but you can't afford to because you're so far behind already.

[vince]

Here are the drives for the game.

ATL - TD
GB - Missed FG
ATL - FG
GB - Fumble
ATL - TD
GB - Punt (Cobb stopped 2 yds. short of 1st down on 3rd)
ATL - Punt
GB - INT
ATL - TD

HALFTIME

GB - Punt
ATL - TD
GB - TD
ATL - TD
GB - TD
ATL - TD
GB - TD
ATL - Punt
GB - END OF GAME

[Rutnstrut]

Their so called gameplan sucked from the beginning when they decided to defer.

[red]

They only ran the ball one or two times those first 2 drives

So I'm gonna guess their game plan probably looked a lot like those first 2 drives. Throw, throw and throw some more. No matter what the score was

[vince]

Packers 1st Drive
1 Run for 4 yds.
5 Passes for 48 yds.

Packers 2nd Drive
2 Runs for 15 yds. with a fumble
4 Passes for 49 yds.

The run-pass mix worked well the first two drives, notwithstanding the fumble and missed FG.

Those miscues along with the defense's failure to stop the Falcons caused the game to get out of hand quickly. It wasn't the game plan. Wake up.

[Freak Out]

I have no idea what the trends show but I thought they should have started on offense if given the chance. Not sure what difference it would have made in the end but just like the idea.

[vince]

I have no idea what the trends show but I thought they should have started on offense if given the chance. Not sure what difference it would have made in the end but just like the idea.
Yeah given the fact that the defense couldn't get off the field on repeated 3rd down conversions right from the get-go, that obviously would have been the thing to do. If they just make one third down stop things might have been different.

I know that Rodgers loves to defer because of the chance to double up going in and out of halftime.

Obviously deferring went as bad as it possibly could have, but it's hard to argue that taking the ball first would have made a big difference. Atlanta simply had their way with GB's D all day.

[pbmax]

PB you have no idea what the game plan going in was, or what adjustments were or were not made, or what they did or didn't practice all week. Period. The fact that the results were impacted by missed scoring opportunities and the defense repeatedly failing to stop the Falcons, thus forcing the Packers hand says nothing whatsoever about the Packers game planning or lack of adjustments. You're simply taking results and forcing a narrative to fit the story you want to tell.

I have the first two drives that were relatively successful to tell us something about the game plan. There were some shorter passes, a comeback to Jordy and one throw to Cook that were medium depth early on but those were less frequent as the game went on. I think I even said after the second drive that I liked the play calling thus far. It mirrored what worked against the Cowboys early.

But they stopped working after the second drive. Pressure, aggressive coverage and drops killed it. After that, guessing the game plan is a crap shoot because as McGinn notes, Monty got banged up a couple of times in the game and had to come out, making a hash of the running plan. With a big lead by halftime, I am sure M3's play calling was affected.

But mostly, what I know is what was not there. Multiple attempts to spring receivers open early by running bunches, picks, rubs or crossing routes right off the LOS.

There were 3 attempts to get Cook into the flat with WR blocking. He dropped the first two. But that was it.

And the Falcons ran the same pressures the Cowboys did in the second half, delayed ILB blitzes up the middle and DB pressure off the edge. The team never solved it.

Throwing short on man beaters is not an offense. But it will help an offense stuck in neutral against a team playing man with pressure.

What this tells me is that after 2 years of some brutal offense (and 5 years of tape of this happening against some good teams) McCarthy still does not know how to overcome this limitation of his offense.

EDIT: Stan Albeck was the coach, Hubie was doing color commentary. And it was 1984, the year after the Championship.

A long time ago, Billy "Kangaroo Kid" Cunningham was a celebrated player turned coach for the 76ers. He would win a title with the team in 1983. He got into the playoffs one year as one of the three best teams in the League. Sixers pulled the Nets in the first round of the playoffs. The Nets were hopelessly outmatched physically and had finished well behind the 76ers in the East standings. I think the Nets only had Albert King, but my dates might be wrong. EDIT: also Otis Birdsong, Darryl Dawkins and Michael Richardson.

Albeck threw a half court trap at the Sixers sometime in the first two games and the Sixers never completely solved it. Despite having Maurice Cheeks, one of the best point guards of the era. Cunningham just did not know how to teach this group how to overcome this tactic. He was a good coach with a horrendous blind spot. Nets went on to win 4-2 I think in an ugly series where the Sixers offense never really took flight. His assistants were unable to help apparently. EDIT: it was 3-2 (best of five series)

McCarthy is now on year 6 of facing this kind of defense and he hasn't solved it. In fact, while injuries probably hurt here, the teams that can run this successfully against the Packers are less talented than before. The Packers have not exactly stood still, they have done some things; the entire scramble drill offense is part of it.

But pressure like we saw in the last 6 quarters makes a hash of that plan. And if the old 49ers D 4 man rush or the Vikings Spy5 get pressure, it doesn't matter.

He needs his base offense that is available in every game, regardless of game plan, to include concepts that will force a team out of man. His WR are talented enough to carry this out. Kyle freaking Shanahan was able to do this with Robert Griffin and Pierre Garçon and Matt Ryan without Julio Jones. His whole offense runs sideways.

If McCarthy gets beat in the pre game scouting department, its lights out for the offense because of this inflexibility.

[vince]

But they stopped working after the second drive. Pressure, aggressive coverage and drops killed it. After that, guessing the game plan is a crap shoot because as McGinn notes, Monty got banged up a couple of times in the game and had to come out, making a hash of the running plan. With a big lead by halftime, I am sure M3's play calling was affected.

But mostly, what I know is what was not there. Multiple attempts to spring receivers open early by running bunches, picks, rubs or crossing routes right off the LOS.

There were 3 attempts to get Cook into the flat with WR blocking. He dropped the first two. But that was it.

And the Falcons ran the same pressures the Cowboys did in the second half, delayed ILB blitzes up the middle and DB pressure off the edge. The team never solved it.

Throwing short on man beaters is not an offense. But it will help an offense stuck in neutral against a team playing man with pressure.

What this tells me is that after 2 years of some brutal offense (and 5 years of tape of this happening against some good teams) McCarthy still does not know how to overcome this limitation of his offense.
...
McCarthy is now on year 6 of facing this kind of defense and he hasn't solved it. In fact, while injuries probably hurt here, the teams that can run this successfully against the Packers are less talented than before. The Packers have not exactly stood still, they have done some things; the entire scramble drill offense is part of it.

But pressure like we saw in the last 6 quarters makes a hash of that plan. And if the old 49ers D 4 man rush or the Vikings Spy5 get pressure, it doesn't matter.

He needs his base offense that is available in every game, regardless of game plan, to include concepts that will force a team out of man. His WR are talented enough to carry this out. Kyle freaking Shanahan was able to do this with Robert Griffin and Pierre Garçon and Matt Ryan without Julio Jones. His whole offense runs sideways.

If McCarthy gets beat in the pre game scouting department, its lights out for the offense because of this inflexibility.

PB how is it that the offense has been so consistently elite if McCarthy doesn’t know how to beat man coverage? If that were the case, we’d have seen the downfall of McCarthy years ago. That assertion is without foundation and quite simply not real.

The only period when this offense wasn't highly effective against man, zone, pressure, coverage, or whatever combination you want to offer is during the time when their personnel lacked the ability to get separation due to the fact that they had no one who could threaten deep and down the middle of the field due to injuries to key players. They couldn’t beat man coverage because they didn’t have the players to separate from man coverage, regardless of motion, stacks, crossers, rubs, or other traditional man-beater tactics.

Now, we can perhaps both agree that McCarthy (rightfully) likes to beat man coverage in innovative ways that take full advantage of the unique talents of his quarterback, but you can hardly say he doesn't know how to do it. Just because he doesn't do it in traditional ways doesn't mean he doesn't do it.

Packers Offensive Rank (Points)
2016 4th
2015 15th
2014 1st
2013 8th
2012 5th
2011 1st
2010 10th
2009 3rd
2008 5th

If what you say has any realistic merit, you’d think teams would just man up on them and stop them wouldn’t you? Again, they did that pretty effectively the second half of last year due to a lack of healthy talent, and to a far lesser extent this year before Nelson and Cook ramped up, but they've proven they can consistently (not every play, or even every drive, but consistently over time) beat whatever you want to throw at them - until they are forced into a one-dimensional game and/or they come up against a truly dominant defense.

That's just what the actual history shows. Your "2 years of brutal offense and 5 years of problems" and the rest of your narrative just has no basis in reality.

[beveaux1]

I think one of the reasons the Packers had problems with the corner blitzes and delayed blitzes was not having Lacy, Starks, or Kuhn to pick up those blitzers. As much as I like Monty, he has not learned how to block for Rodgers. Ripper is still a work in progress, and Michael...I don't know what to say about Michael.

[pbmax]

If what you say has any realistic merit, you’d think teams would just man up on them and stop them wouldn’t you? Again, they did that pretty effectively the second half of last year due to a lack of healthy talent, and to a far lesser extent this year before Nelson and Cook ramped up, but they've proven they can beat whatever you want to throw at them - until they are forced into a one-dimensional game and/or they come up against a truly dominant defense.

That's just what the actual history shows. Your "2 years of brutal offense" and the rest of your narrative just has no basis in reality.

I really respect most of your argument along these lines. I am arguing a set of facts that seem to apply only in certain conditions (against good defenses and in close games). But to say that the offensive results in 2015 and 2016 did not represent some "brutal offense" is breathtaking. That 20 or 21 game streak was horrid on offense. Perhaps average for other franchises, but brutal for the Packers, their coach and their talent. And the loss on Sunday looked similar to that streak. You certainly could argue that the Defensive collapsed masked the improvement of the offense mid year this year, but the streak was still awful.

But put that aside, and let's revisit the 2013 playoff game at Lambeau versus the 49ers. It was an offense that featured Lacy, Starks, Nelson, Cobb and Jones. The 49ers D was very good but was off its pinnacle, having some injuries along the D line and a new safety that had replaced one of their best players.

Unlike the Seahawks (who McCarthy and Rodgers have puzzled out), the 49ers played Cover 2 man. If you rematched this game, you would recognize the failure of short passes to sustain the offense and when the longer attempts bore no fruit, they had no way to even flip field position. Rodger spent the entire game trying to get deep against Cover 2 outside, where you saw the Packers surrender some big plays to Sanu just last weekend.

It wasn't working and the offense stalled several times. 5 of nine drives ended in punts and the Packers only had a brief 3 point lead in the second quarter. Rodgers finished 17 of 26 for 177 yards and touchdown. His long pass was 26 yards and his completion percentage was 65%. The run game was effective at 31 carries for 124 yards. But those five drives that resulted in zero points? They netted 1 yard total.

The defense for the Packers was more brutal that the offense, though it held up pretty well until the end of the game. Compared to the previous two efforts against Kapernick, they looked lights out until the last drive. Packers were without a CB or two (Shields) and had House on Crabtree and Matthews was limited by the thumb/club I think.

Condition of that defense:
A depleted Packers defense -- already playing without linebacker Clay Matthews -- lost two more starters Sunday in cornerback Sam Shields and linebacker Mike Neal -- but still managed to hold its own against the Niners.

Rodgers view of how the offense played?

"Very disappointing, personally," Rodgers said. "It's frustrating not to play your best game in tough conditions. Defense holds them to 23 points. We should win that game."

It has not improved. The same template for good Defenses still applies as it has since Kansas City did it in 2011 to break the win streak.

[pbmax]

I think one of the reasons the Packers had problems with the corner blitzes and delayed blitzes was not having Lacy, Starks, or Kuhn to pick up those blitzers. As much as I like Monty, he has not learned how to block for Rodgers. Ripper is still a work in progress, and Michael...I don't know what to say about Michael.

Agreed. That is one reason why Ripper is out there more often than you might expect. Taylor being the Guard and Linsley's inability to detect a delayed blitz hurt too.

[pbmax]

JS Comments ‏@JSComments 1h1 hour ago

I certainly hope the Packer organization reads this comments section

[vince]

The offense was below average the last 10 games of 2015 and the first 6 games of 2016, averaging 20 points a game. Perhaps it felt "horrid" or "brutal" but that would be inaccurate even during the lowest of their performance run - and it didn't last 21 games either. Before that Denver game in 2015 they averaged 27 pts/game and after the Cowboys game in 2016 they averaged 32 pts/game.

I'm sure there are games against good defenses and/or where they played more poorly than normal that can be hand-picked from the full list but if teams could figure out how to consistently "beat McCarthy in the pre-game scouting department" they'd have done it long ago. There was a formula there for awhile that kept them below average, but it's pretty clear that one doesn't work anymore.

If they don't block up the intermittent blind-side blitz (and the one delayed 0 gap blitz the line flat out missed), we've seen the last couple games that works too but that's not likely to be a sustainable strategy as beveaux said.

[pbmax]

The offense was below average the last 10 games of 2015 and the first 6 games of 2016, averaging 20 points a game. Perhaps it felt "horrid" or "brutal" but that would be inaccurate even during the lowest of their performance run - and it didn't last 21 games either. Before that Denver game in 2015 they averaged 27 pts/game and after the Cowboys game in 2016 they averaged 32 pts/game.

I'm sure there are games against good defenses and/or where they played more poorly than normal that can be hand-picked from the full list but if teams could figure out how to consistently "beat McCarthy in the pre-game scouting department" they'd have done it long ago. There was a formula there for awhile that kept them below average, but it's pretty clear that one doesn't work anymore.

If they don't block up the intermittent blind-side blitz (and the one delayed 0 gap blitz the line flat out missed), we've seen the last couple games that works too but that's not likely to be a sustainable strategy as beveaux said.

The blitz thing is new and I expect they will get that fixed. Either Monty or Ripper figure it out or Lacy returns to do it. The route combo problem is just something McCarthy isn't willing to adjust long term (he did do some of this during the downturn). But since he has a strong preference to run long routes versus quick hitters versus man, they must block up the blitz or he is going to lose Rodgers. One of those hits I was half convinced wrecked his left shoulder.

The problem with ultimately not adjusting your routes is that it leave even more on the QB's plate and forces him to be otherworldly. Getting such long protection times against good defenses doesn't seem sustainable. Even if this is his preferred method of operating, I would love the see the alternative to give his QB a break.

[vince]

The blitz thing is new and I expect they will get that fixed. Either Monty or Ripper figure it out or Lacy returns to do it. The route combo problem is just something McCarthy isn't willing to adjust long term (he did do some of this during the downturn). But since he has a strong preference to run long routes versus quick hitters versus man, they must block up the blitz or he is going to lose Rodgers. One of those hits I was half convinced wrecked his left shoulder.

The problem with ultimately not adjusting your routes is that it leave even more on the QB's plate and forces him to be otherworldly. Getting such long protection times against good defenses doesn't seem sustainable. Even if this is his preferred method of operating, I would love the see the alternative to give his QB a break.
That's very fair IMO. They definitely need to block up the blitz, or Rodgers needs to see it - and he's pretty good at eluding when he does - if they're going to beat man coverage downfield like they want to do - and are once again pretty darn good at normally. Most teams just don't have enough men to man up effectively for very long against GB.

[Rutnstrut]

The blitz thing is new and I expect they will get that fixed. Either Monty or Ripper figure it out or Lacy returns to do it. The route combo problem is just something McCarthy isn't willing to adjust long term (he did do some of this during the downturn). But since he has a strong preference to run long routes versus quick hitters versus man, they must block up the blitz or he is going to lose Rodgers. One of those hits I was half convinced wrecked his left shoulder.

The problem with ultimately not adjusting your routes is that it leave even more on the QB's plate and forces him to be otherworldly. Getting such long protection times against good defenses doesn't seem sustainable. Even if this is his preferred method of operating, I would love the see the alternative to give his QB a break.

It's not going to make any sense to put a lot of work into Monty as a RB. He can not handle the pounding of an every down back. Hell most real RB's have trouble going 16 games.

[pbmax]

That's very fair IMO. They definitely need to block up the blitz, or Rodgers needs to see it - and he's pretty good at eluding when he does - if they're going to beat man coverage downfield like they want to do - and are once again pretty darn good at normally. Most teams just don't have enough men to man up effectively for very long against GB.

Part of what I thought was unfair about McGinn's Rating the Game article this week is that he says a "flu bug" shouldn't affect a player in the game. But he doesn't mention Crosby's miss or Nelson's fading contribution. Its all on Rodgers and his poor reaction (theoretically) to being sick.

Well, when your best choice on offense is have the QB perform a quick escape (like he did when he was otherworldly against the Falcons in 2010) from an unblocked blitz and then find time to locate an open receiver and complete the pass, sickness is going to drain his energy. Wouldn't have been wonderful to have 8 plays where the receiver is open quick, can hit some YAC and Rodgers just needs to set and fire. Would very much help your QB and your offense.

[pbmax]

It's not going to make any sense to put a lot of work into Monty as a RB. He can not handle the pounding of an every down back. Hell most real RB's have trouble going 16 games.

We'll see next camp, but they seem dedicated to him at RB. McCarthy has stated so explicitly.

[Rutnstrut]

We'll see next camp, but they seem dedicated to him at RB. McCarthy has stated so explicitly.

That would figure. They should be able to figure it out since he can't go a whole game without coming out for at least a little bit for something. Then again stubby and TT seem to really like softer players.

[pbmax]

Its been a while since he was a full time RB. As Patler has pointed out, he has the size. He needs to learn to pace himself and not take so many direct hits unless the payoff is worth it.

But the adjustment might happen while he spends some time unavailable. I am very much in favor of signing Lacy for what will likely be his below market value (if his market had been healthy, in-shape Lacy).

[Freak Out]

I almost forgot about this: how in the hell did they get beat so bad on those onside kick attempts? It's a blur and all I remember is Sanu getting the ball uncontested both times?

[Smidgeon]

I almost forgot about this: how in the hell did they get beat so bad on those onside kick attempts? It's a blur and all I remember is Sanu getting the ball uncontested both times?

What I read, the first one was short, the second one was long.

[red]

Yeah he second one was about 10 yards away from the recovering guys when it came down

No chance at all to recover that one

[red]

Its been a while since he was a full time RB. As Patler has pointed out, he has the size. He needs to learn to pace himself and not take so many direct hits unless the payoff is worth it.

But the adjustment might happen while he spends some time unavailable. I am very much in favor of signing Lacy for what will likely be his below market value (if his market had been healthy, in-shape Lacy).

We need to see what he looks like first, he could be 325 for all we know

[vince]

Part of what I thought was unfair about McGinn's Rating the Game article this week is that he says a "flu bug" shouldn't affect a player in the game. But he doesn't mention Crosby's miss or Nelson's fading contribution. Its all on Rodgers and his poor reaction (theoretically) to being sick.

Well, when your best choice on offense is have the QB perform a quick escape (like he did when he was otherworldly against the Falcons in 2010) from an unblocked blitz and then find time to locate an open receiver and complete the pass, sickness is going to drain his energy. Wouldn't have been wonderful to have 8 plays where the receiver is open quick, can hit some YAC and Rodgers just needs to set and fire. Would very much help your QB and your offense.I honestly don't think it would have mattered one iota, nor do I think the flu bug was an issue for Rodgers. He didn't run out of gas. He ran out of execution on a few key early plays and he ran out of defense.

I saw Jordy wincing in pain as the game progressed into the 2nd half. I'd say it was his ribs that took him out of the game and not the flu. Crosby missed a 41-yarder on the first series. It turned out to be a big miss. Who knows what it was attributable to but it's far from a slam dunk that it was due to the flu bug earlier in the week. It could have been but it's anything but certain. I'd even say it's unlikely to have been the flu from earlier in the week.

[call_me_ishmael]

Has MM had the season ending press conference yet? I haven't heard it if so. Seems like it's late this year. Gotta wonder if that means some changes are coming - though I would have thought that would have leaked by now.

[Joemailman]

Has MM had the season ending press conference yet? I haven't heard it if so. Seems like it's late this year. Gotta wonder if that means some changes are coming - though I would have thought that would have leaked by now.

I was wondering the same thing. Last year it was Jan. 18, 2 days after losing to Arizona. Either something's up, or he's just decided to do all his exit interviews before the PC.

My guess he's considering coaching changes, and doesn't want to have to answer questions about it until he's made a decision.

[Bretsky]

Has MM had the season ending press conference yet? I haven't heard it if so. Seems like it's late this year. Gotta wonder if that means some changes are coming - though I would have thought that would have leaked by now.

You are kidding right ?

EVERY YEAR MM's end of the year presser is the same theme. We are evaluating and breaking the tape down and going through the process and have no news at this point.

Expect that tomorrow

[Fritz]

I honestly don't think it would have mattered one iota, nor do I think the flu bug was an issue for Rodgers. He didn't run out of gas. He ran out of execution on a few key early plays and he ran out of defense.

I saw Jordy wincing in pain as the game progressed into the 2nd half. I'd say it was his ribs that took him out of the game and not the flu. Crosby missed a 41-yarder on the first series. It turned out to be a big miss. Who knows what it was attributable to but it's far from a slam dunk that it was due to the flu bug earlier in the week. It could have been but it's anything but certain. I'd even say it's unlikely to have been the flu from earlier in the week.

I don't understand you two madly debating the offense when clearly the defense sucked so hard and so deeply for so many games.

[pbmax]

I don't understand you two madly debating the offense when clearly the defense sucked so hard and so deeply for so many games.

Simple. Of the two questions, sussing out problems on O is easier because failures of talent are fewer and father between.

I have no idea on defense. With many of the same parts, that defense played very well in 2014 and at the end of 2015 and at the beginning of 2016. Two of those streaks were without Raji. They also played some of the worst Defensive football I have ever seen during those times.

At this point I can't even begin to fathom how much injuries played a role.

[vince]

I don't understand you two madly debating the offense when clearly the defense sucked so hard and so deeply for so many games.Not sure how mad we are but that would be my point as well.

[pbmax]

Has MM had the season ending press conference yet? I haven't heard it if so. Seems like it's late this year. Gotta wonder if that means some changes are coming - though I would have thought that would have leaked by now.

They announced Monday AM that it was Thursday. Not enough time to decide about changes. Possible that he was giving himself time to consider.

But two days after a playoff loss is doing player exit interviews in a hurry. Four days makes more sense to me.

[pbmax]

Just to be clear, I wholeheartedly agree the defense is the bigger problem.

[Rutnstrut]

As far as the Atlanta game. The yards were there to be had in the middle of their defense, both running and passing. I bet Hoody will not pass that up like dumbass stubby.