Defensive needs, in order.....

[RashanGary]

Cornerback - I'm of the opinion that Randall is going to have a bounce back season. I see his talent and playmaking ability and saw him slowed by injury. But Gunter is what he is and he's slow. I don't see that working out ever. We need a #1 corner!

OLB - with the loss of Peppers, we need another pass rusher to spell 52 and 53.

ILB - our inside linebacker group is a bunch of blah. They never force a fumble and rarely breakup passes. Yuck. We need a beast flying around in the middle of our defense.

Cornerback - Rollins has never looked good outside whether injured or not and Hyde is more of a ST player who fills in at a bunch of spots on defense. We need real corners. Maybe one of these young guys develop, but I'm not counting on it.

DL - Daniels is a rock. Clark looks like he could develop into a real powerful guy. Guion is serviceable. Lowry was surprisingly active and should develop. Could always use another DL though.

Safety - we're alright at safety and Brice looks talented as a backup. If you can find a stud safety though, shit, Burnett is alright but I'd be happy to upgrade. I actually liked him better as a LB or slot guy.

[RashanGary]

Our best defensive players were, this year, in order:

Daniels
Clinton Dix
Perry
Burnett (only because he's steady and reliable)
Peppers (as a situational player)
Matthews (in a couple flash situations, but he's been hobbled)


Honestly, did anyone else make a play? We should get some development out of Randall, Clark, Brice, ILB group, Lowry and many of the seemingly dozen other rookies/2nd year injured on defense.

But we have very little talent on defense. I think that is clear. We might have to make one decent FA move, get some development and have a really good draft. It's gonna take a big off season to fix that defense. The offense carried us.

[texaspackerbacker]

I put Randall at or near the bottom of the bunch we have at Corner. Getting a real quality Corner to pair with Gunter would really be nice. Rollins might improve; Hyde does a lot with limited talent and is decent as a 3rd or 4th Corner/back up Safety. Hawkins is the question mark; He might be a keeper like Gunter but with more speed - or not.

You nailed it on ILBs. Honestly, I still like Clay there.

We need to use Jayrone Elliot more at OLB. Also, I'm not all that negative about Fackrell.

If there's any hope at all that Ted gets off his ass and signs a decent free agent, a proven cover corner would be the place to invest the money we supposedly have.

You pretty much nailed it on D Linemen also; Safety too.

[Deputy Nutz]

Randall will be fine, he had surgery on his groin midway through the season. I am sure that does something to your ability to play cornerback. If Gunter was so bad then why was covering the teams number one receiver? He isn't a number one guy, but he will be in a position to start next season.

Also Matthews is fucking terrible. 13 million for that guy.

[RashanGary]

Randall will be fine, he had surgery on his groin midway through the season. I am sure that does something to your ability to play cornerback. If Gunter was so bad then why was covering the teams number one receiver? He isn't a number one guy, but he will be in a position to start next season.

Also Matthews is fucking terrible. 13 million for that guy.

Gunter played better than Randall or anyone this year. Can't help but think that 4.7 speed is a liability. He does everything right but gets beat. Randall had been a mess this year but when healthy shows big play ability. I hope I'm wrong and I hope Gunter destroys my viewpoint!!

[red]

Randall will be fine, he had surgery on his groin midway through the season. I am sure that does something to your ability to play cornerback. If Gunter was so bad then why was covering the teams number one receiver? He isn't a number one guy, but he will be in a position to start next season.

Also Matthews is fucking terrible. 13 million for that guy.

so does that also explain why he sucked so bad before the groin injury?

the injury is a nice excuse to use for him halfway through a shitty year, but the fact of the matter is he looks just as bad and lost before that injury

in week 2 he began to look like the player he has become today

[pbmax]

Randall will be fine, he had surgery on his groin midway through the season. I am sure that does something to your ability to play cornerback. If Gunter was so bad then why was covering the teams number one receiver? He isn't a number one guy, but he will be in a position to start next season.

Also Matthews is fucking terrible. 13 million for that guy.

Agreed on Matthews production. Its an amount of money that is probably better spent on pass rushing that works from the LOS.

Randall has some things to square away beside the groin, he had a couple of bad outings early too. But between the groin and his knee, he was not the same guy at the ned of the season.

[pbmax]

Hyde should get a shout out in Justin's list.

[Deputy Nutz]

so does that also explain why he sucked so bad before the groin injury?

the injury is a nice excuse to use for him halfway through a shitty year, but the fact of the matter is he looks just as bad and lost before that injury

in week 2 he began to look like the player he has become today

He missed week 4 and 5 with the groin injury tried to play week 6 and tore it again breaking up a pass and was gone until week 12. I am sure you were also one of the fans that decided to burn Adams at the stake last year as well.

[Deputy Nutz]

Hyde should get a shout out in Justin's list.

Hyde made a couple of nice plays against Dallas, but also made some horrible choices in that game as well. Both went for touchdowns. He sold out on the run and over pursued on play action on the Bryant touchdown. Gunter had coverage to the outside with Hyde on the inside. Hyde was no where to be found. In fact you can re-watch it and see Hyde completely lost in the middle of the field.

[pbmax]

Hyde made a couple of nice plays against Dallas, but also made some horrible choices in that game as well. Both went for touchdowns. He sold out on the run and over pursued on play action on the Bryant touchdown. Gunter had coverage to the outside with Hyde on the inside. Hyde was no where to be found. In fact you can re-watch it and see Hyde completely lost in the middle of the field.

I remember that. But I also remember him coming up big versus the Giants.

He is almost not a starter because of his limitations. He's not Jarret Bush, but you want him for a utility role not a starting CB or safety. His value is in versatility.

[Rutnstrut]

Just playing devil's advocate here. is Clay worth anything in a trade?

[beveaux1]

Just playing devil's advocate here. is Clay worth anything in a trade?

If the payout next year on Clay's contract is over 15 million as has been reported, I don't believe so. The question is, does he re-do his contract for less, which he has no obligation to do, does he become a cap casualty, or do we pay him and hope for 15 million in production?

[Freak Out]

What about a DC? lol

[pbmax]

No way does Matthews redo that deal without new money or some extraordinary circumstance.

He's coming off injury and a move to ILB, he doesn't want to be on the market this year.

I do think he works better as a ILB/rover.

[bobblehead]

He missed week 4 and 5 with the groin injury tried to play week 6 and tore it again breaking up a pass and was gone until week 12. I am sure you were also one of the fans that decided to burn Adams at the stake last year as well.

And Nick Collins after 2 seasons.

[bobblehead]

No way does Matthews redo that deal without new money or some extraordinary circumstance.

He's coming off injury and a move to ILB, he doesn't want to be on the market this year.

I do think he works better as a ILB/rover.

That is leverage to get him to redo the deal. On the open market he won't make much. Offer him a haircut (fiscally) or cut him. I honestly don't think cutting him makes that D any worse than it was this year. Given his age, production, injury history, I honestly wouldn't be pissed to part ways if he won't take a cut that opens more cap room to sign an FA corner.

[Rutnstrut]

I have always thought and said many times that Clay is overrated and extremely over paid. He's not worth even half of what they are paying him.

[red]

packers have zero leverage with clay

[red]

And Nick Collins after 2 seasons.

nick collins didn't regress after his rookie year, BEFORE THE INJURIES

[pbmax]

That is leverage to get him to redo the deal. On the open market he won't make much. Offer him a haircut (fiscally) or cut him. I honestly don't think cutting him makes that D any worse than it was this year. Given his age, production, injury history, I honestly wouldn't be pissed to part ways if he won't take a cut that opens more cap room to sign an FA corner.

So risk the cap hit, hope you can force an agreement and have an unhappier player for shorter term?

I'd rather cut him outright than do that.

[Bossman641]

Randall will be this year's Adams. Book it

[gbgary]

since apparently Gunter is the only cb we have that can play bump and run it's imperative that they sign/draft another one. giving up 300-400 yards a game and qb ratings of 100+ every game is ridiculous.

[RashanGary]

I remember that. But I also remember him coming up big versus the Giants.

He is almost not a starter because of his limitations. He's not Jarret Bush, but you want him for a utility role not a starting CB or safety. His value is in versatility.

I see Hyde exactly this way. A guy who can plug and play a lot of spots and do it fairly well, but a guy you'd rather not have starting. Good piece because he's so versatile. We will use him at some point on defense. Injuries are 100% guaranteed to happen in the NFL.

[Carolina_Packer]

Randall has some things to square away beside the groin, he had a couple of bad outings early too. But between the groin and his knee, he was not the same guy at the end of the season.

Since you brought up a point I was wondering about, I'll ask you, PB et al. No excuse, just a fact; Randall had injury concerns this year. He often seemed to give a huge cushion in coverage which often seemed to lead to a target for the guy Randall was covering, which lead to replays where Randall looked like he was late on every target to the guy he was covering. He never really seemed like a ball hawk, all over his guy type of player.

Did he play like that because of his injury or because he's processing too much information and not just reacting? If a guy has a groin and knee injuries, is it possible he was giving that cushion to make sure he had time to react/close and "keep things in front of him" but ultimately getting bled by a thousand cuts?

I recall a few plays in his rookie year when he played press man well; where he anticipated well. I saw one such play in person against the Panthers when Cam threw an out route and Randall undercut the route and got a pick when the Packers were trying to come back. Then there was the pick six against the Raiders.

I think sometimes toughing it out and playing through injuries is admirable, showing toughness, but can mask a players true abilities because they just can't go like they are cable of going, but we see them out there, so many think, well he's good enough to be out there, but that doesn't always lead to effective play. We'll know next year should he be able to stay healthy.

[pbmax]

since apparently Gunter is the only cb we have that can play bump and run it's imperative that they sign/draft another one. giving up 300-400 yards a game and qb ratings of 100+ every game is ridiculous.

I would rather get a mix of talent that can play zone and man to man. THAT way, you can matchup in the best possible way.

What I don't know is why this has not happened before. They have tried to use zones before with poor results.

[vince]

Our best defensive players were, this year, in order:

Daniels
Clinton Dix
Perry
Burnett (only because he's steady and reliable)
Peppers (as a situational player)
Matthews (in a couple flash situations, but he's been hobbled)


Honestly, did anyone else make a play? We should get some development out of Randall, Clark, Brice, ILB group, Lowry and many of the seemingly dozen other rookies/2nd year injured on defense.

But we have very little talent on defense. I think that is clear. We might have to make one decent FA move, get some development and have a really good draft. It's gonna take a big off season to fix that defense. The offense carried us.
I think you're overrating Dix personally. He was completely invisible the first half of the season. He did come on strong with some (mostly gimme) picks and did start to get some confidence about him as a tackler, but he also was caught out of position and/or a step slow on a number of occasions. The game started to slow down for him the second half, but I can't forget some of the plays he missed that cost the Packers games - Not being able to take down Luck at a crucial time in that game.... Not being able to handle the deflected pass he should have picked off that would have sealed the Falcons game...

I think the safeties maybe look better than they are to many because they're compared to the horrid play of the corners this year.

[Upnorth]

In the first round we need to take the best available CB with good hands, Pass rushing OLB or coverage MLB.
Then in the second its the same imo.

[Teamcheez1]

So risk the cap hit, hope you can force an agreement and have an unhappier player for shorter term?

I'd rather cut him outright than do that.

In regards to Matthews:

There are two years left on his contract.
His 2017 salary will be $15.2M (with $4.1M in dead cap).
His 2018 salary will be $11.4M with no dead cap money.

He will be 31 this next season. I saw on ESPN, that Matthews is one of the 4 highest paid LB's in the NFL (this came up on the Jamie Collins LB Browns, who just signed a new contract).

I think the Packers should let it ride for 2017, but all bets are off for 2018 depending on his performance (and health) this next season.

[Deputy Nutz]

nick collins didn't regress after his rookie year, BEFORE THE INJURIES

I know you struggle in this condition to actually process what you read so I will state it again. He dealt with the groin injury from the 3rd week of the season on. He missed a total of 7 games and had surgery in the middle of the season. His play was sub par I don't think anyone is telling you any different, but I think there are significant reasons for it. If you want to watch two football games at the beginning of the season and say that he was bound to suck for the rest of his pro career, go ahead it doesn't really matter what we think.

[Deputy Nutz]

I remember that. But I also remember him coming up big versus the Giants.

He is almost not a starter because of his limitations. He's not Jarret Bush, but you want him for a utility role not a starting CB or safety. His value is in versatility.

If the Giants actually hung onto the balls they dropped with Hyde in coverage I think you would have a different take on the Giants game. He was chasing from behind especially on the first several series. The Packer caught a several breaks in that game with the poor performances of the Giants' receivers.

[Deputy Nutz]

Also we can bag on the secondary all we want, but the fact of the matter is that in the last two playoff games the Packers struggled to put pressure on the QB. If a QB has time to throw in the NFL there are going to be open receivers. As a whole the Packers need to improve all facets of their pass defense for 2017.

Matthews simply makes too much money for the production and his time spend on the field. He has to either restructure his deal taking upfront guaranteed money or he has to bounce. Nick Perry who also seems to be injured to frequently is a free agent and will command a hefty salary increase. The Packers could be looking at trying to replace three key pass rushers in 2017 with the hopeful retirement of Julius Peppers.

Perry is one of the better free agent pass rushers in 2017 along with Chandler Jones from Arizona. Jones is the one that had a bad reaction to fake marijuana last year during the playoffs. He is also the brother of UFC fighter Jon Jones who is currently suspended due to PEDs. Melvin Ingram from San Diego might also deserve a look. The rest of the guys that bring pass rush are old and past their prime. If the Packers would actually sign any of these guys it would be likely a one year deal maybe three with a front loaded deal, even then it isn't worth it for some of these guys.

At the end of the day the Packers might be stuck with Matthews and his shitty contract.

[vince]

Also we can bag on the secondary all we want, but the fact of the matter is that in the last two playoff games the Packers struggled to put pressure on the QB. If a QB has time to throw in the NFL there are going to be open receivers. As a whole the Packers need to improve all facets of their pass defense for 2017.

Matthews simply makes too much money for the production and his time spend on the field. He has to either restructure his deal taking upfront guaranteed money or he has to bounce. Nick Perry who also seems to be injured to frequently is a free agent and will command a hefty salary increase. The Packers could be looking at trying to replace three key pass rushers in 2017 with the hopeful retirement of Julius Peppers.
Great points.

[gbgary]

I would rather get a mix of talent that can play zone and man to man. THAT way, you can matchup in the best possible way.

What I don't know is why this has not happened before. They have tried to use zones before with poor results.

you'd think a guy that can play man could easily play zone so i'd go for the person who could do the tougher task over some project.

[gbgary]

If the Giants actually hung onto the balls they dropped with Hyde in coverage I think you would have a different take on the Giants game. He was chasing from behind especially on the first several series. The Packer caught a several breaks in that game with the poor performances of the Giants' receivers.

hyde is a backup safety first, and then a utility man. he was only in that position out of necessity.

[pbmax]

If the Giants actually hung onto the balls they dropped with Hyde in coverage I think you would have a different take on the Giants game. He was chasing from behind especially on the first several series. The Packer caught a several breaks in that game with the poor performances of the Giants' receivers.

True, but like on that back shoulder throw he broke up (think that was Hyde) being physical because of speed limitations has its advantages on certain routes.

[red]

I know you struggle in this condition to actually process what you read so I will state it again. He dealt with the groin injury from the 3rd week of the season on. He missed a total of 7 games and had surgery in the middle of the season. His play was sub par I don't think anyone is telling you any different, but I think there are significant reasons for it. If you want to watch two football games at the beginning of the season and say that he was bound to suck for the rest of his pro career, go ahead it doesn't really matter what we think.

And like I said, in WEEK 2 he had a terrible game where he showed all the shitty hallmarks that he displayed after the injury

[red]

I know you struggle in this condition to actually process what you read so I will state it again. He dealt with the groin injury from the 3rd week of the season on. He missed a total of 7 games and had surgery in the middle of the season. His play was sub par I don't think anyone is telling you any different, but I think there are significant reasons for it. If you want to watch two football games at the beginning of the season and say that he was bound to suck for the rest of his pro career, go ahead it doesn't really matter what we think.

And like I said, in WEEK 2 he had a terrible game where he showed all the shitty hallmarks that he displayed after the injury

[RashanGary]

And like I said, in WEEK 2 he had a terrible game where he showed all the shitty hallmarks that he displayed after the injury

I read somewhere Randall said he hurt the groin or sports hernia or whatever it was in week 1. So my understanding is he only had one healthy game all season. And he was really good that game. After that he was shit.

[red]

Lol

[red]

And like I said, in WEEK 2 he had a terrible game where he showed all the shitty hallmarks that he displayed after the injury

and someone that agrees with me about randall being horrible before the injury

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/02/03/aarons-answers-pay-cuts-cobb-matthews/97447592/


The same can not be said of Randall. He played poorly from the first game on, got injured, came back, and then played even worse.

[wist43]

How good would any of these guys look in Green and Gold?? Bernardrick McKinney (2nd rd), or Lorenzo Mauldin (3rd rd), or Ronald Darby (2nd rd), or Deion Jones (2nd rd), or Telvin Smith (5th rd), etc, etc...

All of these were players that many of us identified as good players to target - and all were available when Ted had the chance to grab them; and, all of them have proven to be better players than those that Ted picked. Instead Ted spits on these players and we end up with a defensive roster of slugs that languishes near the bottom of the league in perpetuity.

Ted, Dom, and the Packers as an organization care next to nothing about the ILB position - they've outright stated as much. Their attraction to "soft" DB's who can't tackle and generally suck at playing zone is endemic. As for the DL - who can say what they're ever trying to accomplish... there's no identity, and the primary prereq for all DL positions is that the player be as pedestrian as possible.

Add to that Dunderdummy's insistence on playing a 2-4 base, and you have a recipe for disaster - and yes Max, 2-4 is our base defense.

For you apologists and eternal optimists - nothing is going to change. We have over a decade of this regime doing the same thing over and over and over... Dom will run that idiotic 2-4 for the rest of his life - all of which will be spent as the Packers DC; and Ted will never, ever bring in impact FA's or adequately address the ILB position.

It is what it is.

We will be 9-7 to 11-5 again next year, and promptly be bounced from the playoffs again as another offense stomps our weak-ass defense into the ground.

[Bretsky]

How good would any of these guys look in Green and Gold?? Bernardrick McKinney (2nd rd), or Lorenzo Mauldin (3rd rd), or Ronald Darby (2nd rd), or Deion Jones (2nd rd), or Telvin Smith (5th rd), etc, etc...

All of these were players that many of us identified as good players to target - and all were available when Ted had the chance to grab them; and, all of them have proven to be better players than those that Ted picked. Instead Ted spits on these players and we end up with a defensive roster of slugs that languishes near the bottom of the league in perpetuity.

Ted, Dom, and the Packers as an organization care next to nothing about the ILB position - they've outright stated as much. Their attraction to "soft" DB's who can't tackle and generally suck at playing zone is endemic. As for the DL - who can say what they're ever trying to accomplish... there's no identity, and the primary prereq for all DL positions is that the player be as pedestrian as possible.

Add to that Dunderdummy's insistence on playing a 2-4 base, and you have a recipe for disaster - and yes Max, 2-4 is our base defense.

For you apologists and eternal optimists - nothing is going to change. We have over a decade of this regime doing the same thing over and over and over... Dom will run that idiotic 2-4 for the rest of his life - all of which will be spent as the Packers DC; and Ted will never, ever bring in impact FA's or adequately address the ILB position.

It is what it is.

We will be 9-7 to 11-5 again next year, and promptly be bounced from the playoffs again as another offense stomps our weak-ass defense into the ground.


WELCOME BACK WIST !!! Yes, your comments about the above names ring fairly true

[wist43]

WELCOME BACK WIST !!! Yes, your comments about the above names ring fairly true

Haven't abandoned you guys... just so busy I can't find a moment to catch my breath.

I changed jobs, and now travel a lot - combined with 3 young kids... I pretty much have no life outside of family/work. It's all good though... kids and wife are awesome, we're a happy clan.

I lurk on here when I can, and try to post once in a while - but usually find myself falling asleep as I'm trying to form a thought to get my 2 cents worth in, lol...

I'm trying to get up to speed a little bit for the draft... so hopefully I can chime in a bit on prospects and what I'd like to see Ted do - not holding my breath though. If I had my way, most of those guys I listed in the above post would be Green Bay Packers today.