Something to consider.

[Rutnstrut]

It's pretty much a given that Rodgers is the best, ever. What is concerning is that if TT continues to screw the pooch. Rodgers will retire with less SB appearances than the likes of Kurt Warner. You guys can defend TT all you want. He and stubby to some extent, have hurt this team as much as helped it.

[vince]

Disagree.

[Rutnstrut]

Disagree.

On what? I will bet you a 100.00 that if they keep the status quo, they don't go to another SB in AR's career.

[vince]

I will bet you a $1,000,000.00 that they won't keep the status quo.

[gbgary]

kurt warner is/will be a hof'er.

[texaspackerbacker]

kurt warner is/will be a hof'er.

Mainly because of the talent he was surrounded with!

I agree with Rutnstrut/disagree with Vince.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Well, Rut, you lose because the status quo is bound to change...unless of course the Pack decides not to participate in the 2017 college draft.

[Joemailman]

I'm guessing Rut meant the team of TT/MM as status quo. But what do I know?

[Rutnstrut]

I'm guessing Rut meant the team of TT/MM as status quo. But what do I know?

Kind of. By status quo I meant TT's refusal to use all means available to build a team.

[gbgary]

TT sees the obvious, hears Rodgers. something has to give this off season.


Mainly because of the talent he was surrounded with!

goes for aikman and 30 other guys. warner deserves it.

[alquaal]

This team is stagnant. Something needs to happen to stir them up, get them out of their comfort zone. I don't think anyone on the team likes to go 10-6 and get knocked out of the playoffs every year but hey, they just need to reload, right? Just keep on doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[Rutnstrut]

IMO one big thing this team really lacks is some tough, hard nosed, MEAN football players, especially on D. Mike Daniels is about the only one that fits that description.

[texaspackerbacker]

I agree with you again on that, Rutnstrut. It again goes to the type of player that Ted seems to prefer, in the draft especially. And I don't just mean "Packer People" - good character types, which I don't have any problem with. I mean it seems like Ted more often than not goes for softer more finesse type less athletic in some cases, less tough in a lot of cases. I think one reason the Packers have had more success with UDFAs and low end draft picks is that they depart from that tendency. Take Gunter for example compared to Randall and Rollins. Take Jayrone Elliot and Joe Thomas compared to Ryan and Martinez. Take Daniels compared to Datone Jones and Nick Perry (until maybe this - his contract year).

[Bretsky]

I do agree that Rodgers is the best QB ever; I think this year I moved to that belief.

I really think we need a LOT LOT more team speed on defense. Kind of where Atlanta was before the draft last year when they focued on adding speed and athletes to the defense and it seemed to really improve them

[pbmax]

It's pretty much a given that Rodgers is the best, ever. What is concerning is that if TT continues to screw the pooch. Rodgers will retire with less SB appearances than the likes of Kurt Warner. You guys can defend TT all you want.

Please see 2014 season. Best team in NFC.

[Deputy Nutz]

Brady>Rodgers
Not even a debate.

Thompson has built a team to win division titles.
The Packers have a coaching staff to contend each year for a division title.
They do not have a roster or coaching staff to contend for Super Bowls. I think you need at least one of those. The Patriots draft and sign players that are "Patriot People". they don't have the best roster in football, they don't have a Julio Jones but what they have is depth and well coached players that fit their scheme both on offense and on defense.

[vince]

Now you're losing it too Nutz.

The Packers haven't contended for the division title. They've dominated the division, having won it outright 5 of the last 6 years.

Beyond that, the Packers have played in the NFC Championship game 4 of the last 11 years, 3 on the road and 1 Favre debacle at home. They've won the Super Bowl in that time. By any objective measure that's called consistently contending for the Super Bowl.

Assuming they shore up their injury depleted pass defense to a reasonable standard, they'll likely once again be contending for the Super Bowl next year.

[woodbuck27]

I do agree that Rodgers is the best QB ever; I think this year I moved to that belief.

I really think we need a LOT LOT more team speed on defense. Kind of where Atlanta was before the draft last year when they focued on adding speed and athletes to the defense and it seemed to really improve them

Aaron Rodgers may be deemed the best QB to wear a Green Bay Jersey but clearly he is far behind Tom Brady in any conversation and best NFL QB more so player ever.

Tom Brady has a GM and a HC ( Bill Belichick) that prepares his team 'The New England Patriots', to win it all ....year after year after year. Aaron Rogers has much to desire in that area and TT and MM.

I am right now watching Bill Belichick talk on the NFL Network more about next season and how he is preparing to win another Super Bowl.

Us Packer fans simply have to settle it seems with TT and MM and that hasn't been nor will it ever be enough unless they both learn the Bill Belichic method. It is obvious to me that both TT and MM need to grow or let go.

[Deputy Nutz]

Now you're losing it too Nutz.

The Packers haven't contended for the division title. They've dominated the division, having won it outright 5 of the last 6 years.

Beyond that, the Packers have played in the NFC Championship game 4 of the last 11 years, 3 on the road and 1 Favre debacle at home. They've won the Super Bowl in that time. By any objective measure that's called consistently contending for the Super Bowl.

Assuming they shore up their injury depleted pass defense to a reasonable standard, they'll likely once again be contending for the Super Bowl next year.

You can keep assuming but it is the same song and dance every season. If you are content to have one Super Bowl appearance at this point in Aaron Rodgers career then enjoy your division championship hats all you want. To me Division titles are the bare minimum when you have a QB of Rodger's caliber.

[Guiness]

Aaron Rodgers may be deemed the best QB to wear a Green Bay Jersey but clearly he is far behind Tom Brady in any conversation and best NFL QB more so player ever.

Tom Brady has a GM and a HC that prepares his team to win it all year after year after year. Aaron Rogers has much to desire in that area and TT and MM.

I think last night showed that 31 teams have much left to desire on that front. I have no idea what happened last night, and I wonder if anyone does. The only thing I can compare it to is rope-a-dope, tired out the Falcons by letting them score...

[vince]

You can keep assuming but it is the same song and dance every season. If you are content to have one Super Bowl appearance at this point in Aaron Rodgers career then enjoy your division championship hats all you want. To me Division titles are the bare minimum when you have a QB of Rodger's caliber.I'm not talking about who's content with what. I'm talking about your mischaracterization of reality.

I can be unhappy about losing 3 of 4 NFC Champtionship games in the last 10 years and not winning more Super Bowls, but that doesn't mean the team hasn't consistently contended for them and dominated the division during that time.

[woodbuck27]

Now you're losing it too Nutz.

The Packers haven't contended for the division title. They've dominated the division, having won it outright 5 of the last 6 years.

Beyond that, the Packers have played in the NFC Championship game 4 of the last 11 years, 3 on the road and 1 Favre debacle at home. They've won the Super Bowl in that time. By any objective measure that's called consistently contending for the Super Bowl.

Assuming they shore up their injury depleted pass defence to a reasonable standard, they'll likely once again be contending for the Super Bowl next year.

Contending for next seasons Super Bowl !?

To contend (for the Super Bowl) the Packers must win the NFC Title. It is hardly more than the minimum expected to win the NFCN Title. TT and MM have a lot of work to do simply to repair the mess we see in the teams pass defence. TT has to find the talent and toughness the Packers need to get to the show. MM has to learn how to compete as a HC at the highest level. I will be amazed if at his age and given experience he can get there.

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm not talking about who's content with what. I'm talking about your mischaracterization of reality.

I can be unhappy about losing 3 of 4 NFC Champtionship games in the last 10 years and not winning more Super Bowls, but that doesn't mean the team hasn't consistently contended for them and dominated the division during that time.

You seem really happy with Division titles, and that's okay. That's the reality you have been handed.
Nobody cares about how many NFC Championships games the Packers have lost. Rodgers and McCarthy both recognize that the Packers need a more talented roster to compete for SUPER BOWLS.

Top four in the NFL is only good when you are climbing the mountain the Packers have plateaued right now under Thompson. The best you can hope for is winning one or two games in the NFC playoffs and losing one step before the Super Bowl. That is the reality.

[ThunderDan]

You seem really happy with Division titles, and that's okay. That's the reality you have been handed.
Nobody cares about how many NFC Championships games the Packers have lost. Rodgers and McCarthy both recognize that the Packers need a more talented roster to compete for SUPER BOWLS.

Top four in the NFL is only good when you are climbing the mountain the Packers have plateaued right now under Thompson. The best you can hope for is winning one or two games in the NFC playoffs and losing one step before the Super Bowl. That is the reality.

Talk to PHI about that. They replaced Andy Reed and let Chip Kelly by their GM/coach. He was going to take them to the next level. I bet they really wished they hadn't done that.

[vince]

You seem really happy with Division titles, and that's okay. That's the reality you have been handed.
Nobody cares about how many NFC Championships games the Packers have lost. Rodgers and McCarthy both recognize that the Packers need a more talented roster to compete for SUPER BOWLS.

Top four in the NFL is only good when you are climbing the mountain the Packers have plateaued right now under Thompson. The best you can hope for is winning one or two games in the NFC playoffs and losing one step before the Super Bowl. That is the reality.
No that's fantasyland. Last night's Super Bowl demonstrated reality, assuming people can see it.

You think that the past NFC Championship games the Packers played in demonstrates their fate in all NFC Championship games? That's absurd.

The best you can hope for is to be consistently good enough to put your team in position to get there and hope that injuries and a break here or there in any individual game helps you get to the top.

One or two plays in any game can and usually do determine outcomes in football. The Falcons dominated much of that game and it was a 4th Q sack-fumble and a 4th Q sack that turned that game. Whether those plays were a result of one person's execution or whether they should have run vs. pass on another play emphasizes the point.

This season showed that if Shields plays all year, the Packers could very well have been in the Super Bowl - and won it. The Pats were definitely beatable. If Shields somewhat slows down Jones and Ripkowski doesn't fumble (1 or 2 plays) that NFCC is very likely a different ballgame.

I swear some of you guys here are so emotionally irrational when it comes to Thompson and/or McCarthy (throw Favre in there too) that you have lost your grasp on reality.

Thompson doesn't want to win. McCarthy can't finish games. Both of them are stupid. The lies and mischaracterizations of reality are endless.

[Zool]

Thompson doesn't want to win. McCarthy can't finish games. Both of them are stupid. The lies and mischaracterizations of reality are endless.

Welcome to the new society. Everything is end-game based. Everything short of a world title is a waste of time. Every good play is the best you've ever seen. The best player today is the best ever. Second place is first loser. On and on. We're losing site of the journey and only concerning ourselves with the destination.

[Deputy Nutz]

No that's fantasyland. Last night's Super Bowl demonstrated reality, assuming people can see it.

You think that the past NFC Championship games the Packers played in demonstrates their fate in all NFC Championship games? That's absurd.

The best you can hope for is to be consistently good enough to put your team in position to get there and hope that injuries and a break here or there in any individual game helps you get to the top.

One or two plays in any game can and usually do determine outcomes in football. The Falcons dominated much of that game and it was a 4th Q sack-fumble and a 4th Q sack that turned that game. Whether those plays were a result of one person's execution or whether they should have run vs. pass on another play emphasizes the point.

This season showed that if Shields plays all year, the Packers could very well have been in the Super Bowl - and won it. The Pats were definitely beatable. If Shields somewhat slows down Jones and Ripkowski doesn't fumble (1 or 2 plays) that NFCC is very likely a different ballgame.

I swear some of you guys here are so emotionally irrational when it comes to Thompson and/or McCarthy (throw Favre in there too) that you have lost your grasp on reality.

Thompson doesn't want to win. McCarthy can't finish games. Both of them are stupid. The lies and mischaracterizations of reality are endless.

For someone that keeps bringing up reality there are a lot of "what ifs" in your argument.

[vince]

For someone that keeps bringing up reality there are a lot of "what ifs" in your argument.OK how about this one.

You state as fact the Packers coaching staff isn't good enough to contend for the title. I state as fact that the Packers won the Super Bowl during this regime.

Which of those two is real and which one is bullshit designed to support an argument that is not real?

[Maxie the Taxi]

The day TT or MM starts posting on Packerrats is the day I'll start getting worked up about "reality" as it pertains to football and the Green Bay Packers. ;)

[Deputy Nutz]

2010 was a magical year. That was six years ago and they haven't been back since. Aaron Rodgers is 34 I am sure 2010 will keep him content for the rest of his career.

Also when comparing New England's coaching staff to the Green Bay coaches one championship isn't even in the same solar system. Just like comparing Thompson to Belichick, Thompson isn't close. The Patriots compete every single year for a Super Bowl. They lose in the AFC championship game it is considered a bad season. The Patriots have made the climb all the way to the top and they have stayed there. The Packers are sitting on a little ledge about 3/4 of the way up and are enjoying the view.

The Patriots have gotten every single drop of talent out of Brady and they have turned it into 7 Super Bowl appearances. The Packers are getting the same from Rodgers and they have been to one Super Bowl. Talent wise, and stat wise Rodgers is on the Mount Rushmore of QBs, but you can't compare him to Brady because Brady has 5 rings and that is in large part due to his coaching and the front office of the Patriots. Rodgers has one Super Bowl for the same exact reasons.

Brady isn't a better QB than Rodgers so what is the difference in number of championships? The Packers have had two Hall of Fame QBs in the last 25 years and they have managed two Super Bowl wins. That is simply not good enough when they have had two top ten QBs of all time behind center. There might be a different reason besides the front office and the coaching staff, maybe the real blame goes to the board of directors and Mark Murphy.

[pbmax]

The AFC sucks. Only the Broncos under Shanahan were a team that could handle NE (especially its defense).

Their other main competitor would be the Ravens. The Ravens D can handle the NE O. But they have a black hole of an offense.

You get to the Super Bowl 7 times, you will win a couple.

[vince]

The Packers don't stand up to what can only be described as the greatest 16 year run in NFL history. No other regime in the history of the NFL has.

Though if you conduct a comparison with integrity you'd take the first 7 years and 3 Super Bowls out of the equation. Yes the Pats are still clearly the best ever but it's not as stacked against the Packers since Thompson/McCarthy/Rodgers as if you give them a 7-year head start.

I'm also not saying the Packers have been perfect or that there haven't been missed opportunities - but don't people at least want to demonstrate or develop an understanding of what's going on instead of spouting off reactionary bullshit that doesn't even stand up to the most cursory reality check?

The Packers haven't been the most successful franchise in the history of the world the last decade (although they've been great notwithstanding a significant missed opportunity where the ball definitively didn't bounce their way in 2014)?

It follows perfectly then, that they all suck and need to be replaced.

[Deputy Nutz]

Ok the Packers have been good. I am glad you are content. I have no real standing with the team anyway.

[vince]

Again, it has nothing to do with whether I'm content or not.

When people make arguments that are based on lies, irrationality, or just a misunderstanding of reality, it just spreads emotion-driven stupidity.

I don't care who agrees with my opinions at all, but I'm hoping to find arguments that start with some semblance of the truth - and then proceed with intelligence from there. There are a lot of good posts and posters here who build arguments based on facts/assumptions not in evidence - and it's a big waste-of-time circle jerk of posts advancing opinions that are based on misunderstandings or lies in the first place.

[BZnDallas]

Ok the Packers have been good. I am glad you are content. I have no real standing with the team anyway.

Good Lord this argument about fans being content is so boring. Nobody is content. Every fan in this forum wants the Packer to win the Super Bowl every year. That just doesn't happen in the nfl, let alone sports in general. Even N.E. takes years off, haha. But apparently we all have to think the world is ending in Packer Land or we're fat and happy. Insert fat joke. Can you come up with something other than drinking koolaid and being content to rile the masses up please? This off-season is going to be long enough as it is without this boring argument.

[texaspackerbacker]

Brady has been damn good for a long time, and he deserves mention as the best all time. However, even yesterday for most of the game, Brady couldn't cut it when for 3 quarters or so, he had to put up with what Aaron Rodgers has to put up with virtually all game every game. Aaron Rodgers is without a doubt, the better QB of the two i.e. the best of all time. Why? Because he performs at a high level with a lot less quality around him. Ideally, Ted FINALLY loads up the Packers to the extent that in Rodgers' 6 or 8 or 10 remaining years, he can surpass Brady in championships and put this question to rest of who is the best. I'm not holding my breath for that, though.

[Rutnstrut]

Again, it has nothing to do with whether I'm content or not.

When people make arguments that are based on lies, irrationality, or just a misunderstanding of reality, it just spreads emotion-driven stupidity.

I don't care who agrees with my opinions at all, but I'm hoping to find arguments that start with some semblance of the truth - and then proceed with intelligence from there. There are a lot of good posts and posters here who build arguments based on facts/assumptions not in evidence - and it's a big waste-of-time circle jerk of posts advancing opinions that are based on misunderstandings or lies in the first place.

How is anybody else's assessments of the team any less accurate than yours? You and others take the homer view that states TT/Stubby are the best and can do no wrong. Some of us are realists. We say yeah TT and stubby are decent, but they definitely have flaws. TT has and is wasting the awesomeness of Aaron Rodgers, if you can't see that. It may because you refuse to take off the green and gold glasses.

[Zool]

How is anybody else's assessments of the team any less accurate than yours? You and others take the homer view that states TT/Stubby are the best and can do no wrong. Some of us are realists. We say yeah TT and stubby are decent, but they definitely have flaws. TT has and is wasting the awesomeness of Aaron Rodgers, if you can't see that. It may because you refuse to take off the green and gold glasses.

Find one person that says they are the best. Just 1.

You don't say they are decent, you say they suck. If you'd like me to find proof of that, give me :38 seconds to do a quick search of your post history.

[Rutnstrut]

Find one person that says they are the best. Just 1.

You don't say they are decent, you say they suck. If you'd like me to find proof of that, give me :38 seconds to do a quick search of your post history.

Stubby is mediocre to solid, TT just plain sucks. There I saved you the work.

[Carolina_Packer]

I do agree that Rodgers is the best QB ever; I think this year I moved to that belief.

I really think we need a LOT LOT more team speed on defense. Kind of where Atlanta was before the draft last year when they focued on adding speed and athletes to the defense and it seemed to really improve them

QFT! :clap: Atlanta's young linebackers are fast, can fly around, hit and cover. Green Bay's young linebackers are try hard guys who are developing, but may never have that gear that Atlanta's linebackers have. They invested more heavily. Green Bay used two fourth round choices in each of the last two drafts, plus an undrafted player. I don't care when they were selected. I care whether they can play.

[Netmag]

Hate to be an ATL fan right now. Almost makes me glad we didn't make it this year. Although we may have been able to win, the odds too low to expect victory against teams that are consistently competent on both sides of the ball.

To me, this game was still about the defenses. Even though Ryan's passer rating was high in the 1st half, ATL's offense was actually held under reasonable control. Patsies made some mistakes with turnovers which helped ATL build a lead. ATL's D actually compensated for the first 3 Qtrs so they still were able to command the lead. Eventually, their D just ran out of gas and it made the Patsies look like brand new team. They were consistent enough on both sides of the ball that they were able to dominate when ATL's D crapped out.

Unless we hit a big streak of luck, I don't think we're winning a SB until we at least become more consistently competent on D.
AROD affords us the luxury to be lopsided on Offense and still be great on O (as long as he is not injured), but we can't get by on that alone to help our D. Our D needs to be good enough to help AROD out when he's having a rough QTR instead of the other way around.
They showed flashes of that in the playoffs which actually helped balance us out and win, but it just wasn't consistent enough meaning they looked like they were competent for one QTR and then look like crap the next. Then in the last game, they completely collapsed out. We need to acquire some proven assets (including finding ways to grab some extra higher level talent) to bolster our D and help AROD out while it still matters.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I actually think we could have caught Atlanta if the ball had bounced in our favor a couple of times. A couple of bad plays took the air out of our football (Rip getting stripped and Crosby missing FG.) We had our share of TO chances, we just come up short...

...Naw, what am I saying! We got creamed!

[hoosier]

TT and MM are the best. Ever.

[bobblehead]

You know what the humor of all this is. The same people saying we are wasting Rodgers are the ones who wanted to trade him so Favre could win one more superbowl.

[Maxie the Taxi]

TT and MM are the best. Ever.Well...maybe not the "best."

Well...maybe not "ever."

Well...maybe not TT.

Well...maybe not even MM.

Well...maybe neither.

Well...maybe TT but MM actually sucks.

Well...actually they both suck.

Well...actually they could be the worst ever.

Well...yeah...TT and MM are the worst ever.

[Pugger]

IMO one big thing this team really lacks is some tough, hard nosed, MEAN football players, especially on D. Mike Daniels is about the only one that fits that description.

I think we lack speed more than anything else on defense.

[Pugger]

Now you're losing it too Nutz.

The Packers haven't contended for the division title. They've dominated the division, having won it outright 5 of the last 6 years.

Beyond that, the Packers have played in the NFC Championship game 4 of the last 11 years, 3 on the road and 1 Favre debacle at home. They've won the Super Bowl in that time. By any objective measure that's called consistently contending for the Super Bowl.

Assuming they shore up their injury depleted pass defense to a reasonable standard, they'll likely once again be contending for the Super Bowl next year.

If you ask Brady he'll tell you Rodgers is the better QB. Brady is the most successful QB of all time, no question.

[Deputy Nutz]

You know what the humor of all this is. The same people saying we are wasting Rodgers are the ones who wanted to trade him so Favre could win one more superbowl.

If you are referencing me, I never wanted Rodgers traded I just wanted him to either hold the clipboard for a season longer, or I wanted the Packers to release Favre. If you all are considering Rodgers as the best QB of all time and he replaced the Hall of Fame Brett Favre I would expect a little more pressure from the fan base considering the Packers have only 2 rings between the Favre era and the Rodgers era.

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

[gbgary]

Well...maybe not the "best."

Well...maybe not "ever."

Well...maybe not TT.

Well...maybe not even MM.

Well...maybe neither.

Well...maybe TT but MM actually sucks.

Well...actually they both suck.

Well...actually they could be the worst ever.

Well...yeah...TT and MM are the worst ever.

:-)

[Zool]

If you are referencing me, I never wanted Rodgers traded I just wanted him to either hold the clipboard for a season longer, or I wanted the Packers to release Favre. If you all are considering Rodgers as the best QB of all time and he replaced the Hall of Fame Brett Favre I would expect a little more pressure from the fan base considering the Packers have only 2 rings between the Favre era and the Rodgers era.

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

What possible pressure can the fan base provide other than not going to games? I realize complaining on a messageboard SHOULD be enough, but it rings hollow to me.

[pbmax]

The problem with the Packers as an organization is there is no one holding anyone accountable. There is no owner, and Murphy is just a talking head.

Is there no way to hold someone accountable except to fire them or leak your displeasure to NFLNetwork?

[Deputy Nutz]

What possible pressure can the fan base provide other than not going to games? I realize complaining on a messageboard SHOULD be enough, but it rings hollow to me.

I think the fans in Green Bay are some of the most loyal fans in the entire world and the franchise knows it. I think my comment has pointed more at the board of directors and Mark Murphy than at the fan base. Packer fans will always buy crap and sell that place out.

[vince]

I actually think we could have caught Atlanta if the ball had bounced in our favor a couple of times. A couple of bad plays took the air out of our football (Rip getting stripped and Crosby missing FG.) We had our share of TO chances, we just come up short...

...Naw, what am I saying! We got creamed!
Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.Ridicule?

My post was pure fun aimed at no one or nothing in particular, sincere thinking out loud you might call it.

Sorry you read into my honest stream of drivel something that wasn't there.

[Nice, snappy retort though. I agree with you completely.:D]

[pbmax]

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

Not here. One of those pass plays was perfectly reasonable. Superior film study by the Pats and a failure to self scout hurt the Seahawks.

[vince]

I don't disagree. The Seahawks and Falcons can be laid blame for their playcall and lack of execution just as the Patriots can take credit for their execution. The fact is one play each game determined the outcome and if that single play is a run instead of pass it likely would have ended differently.

Regardless of the outcome of those two individual plays the overall points of the post remain the same.

[woodbuck27]

Look Maxie, I'm not concerned about your sarcastic ridicule, but at least be honest about it.

I said that if Shields was healthy all year that the Packers would have matched up better and I believe it could have come down to a few plays in that game. Well before they played you may recall since it was in response to your prediction of the Packers winning it all, I said the Packers pass defense in its current state couldn't hang with the Falcons.

And here's another "Something to consider"

If not for the benefit of one late 4th quarter play call in which their opponent passed instead of ran in each of their last two SB wins - calls that have been widely described as "idiotic", the Patriots are likely 0 for their last 4 Super Bowls - with 0 titles since '04 season. Would people then say, Bellichick can't win the big one? That would be nonsense.

Yet people think there's some mystical character trait that makes Bellichick able to win Super Bowls while McCarthy can't. That's nonsense too. What makes Bellichick's greatness is his building of the Patriots sustained winning program over such a long period of time - not his opponents' failure to finish/win games because of bad play calls late in the 4th Q of two specific games.

There is nothing mystical about Bill Belichick. He simply is very intelligent (there is a good reason he is called Hoody Genius) and he works very hard at succeeding.

Here is what makes Belichick arguably the finest HC in NFL history:

a) As the NE Patriots HC he is well aware of what he needs to realistically prepare for and win football games.

b) As he demands of himself he demands total accountability of his coaching staff and all players on his Roster. He is the Pats GM and HC 24 - 7 and totally dedicated to winning in the Regular Season on into the playoffs and to advance to the Super Bowl and enjoy another victory there. He does not hope to win any game. He makes whatever adjustment is necessary to better ensure a victory. He can see what is going on in a game and adjust accordingly. Belichick is a successful and dynamic HC.

c) Bill Belichick has enormous integrity. He started thinking about next Seasons Super Bowl and winning that one; sometime shortly after his team was victorious in Super Bowl LI. Very simply and frankly Bill Belichick is all business and the NE Patriots winning all of the time. He knows what gives him the best chance to direct his team to success.

d) As the teams HC he realises certain needs. He then as the teams GM makes a maximum effort to upgrade his Roster as necessary. He has total integrity and dedication to do all he can to assure that his team meets every challenge.

E) Bill Belichick is a strong disciplinarian. When you become a New England Patriot you better buy in completely to the Bill Belichick way or you are out ! Every single Patriot believes in the other. That infectious attitude is instilled in the entire Roster by Bill Belichick the Pats GM and HC. It is instilled in the players by the entire coaching staff that simply knows that the GM and HC is the very best available. It is simply a blessing to play for the Patriots with Bill Belichick as the teams GM and HC.

[vince]

Woody you're missing the point altogether. I'm not demeaning Bellichick or suggesting that I think his legacy is due to some mystical trait, luck or anything like that.

People are using one or two Packer NFC Championship losses - while ignoring the win and subsequent Super Bowl title - and blindly comparing McCarthy to Bellichick to claim de facto evidence that McCarthy doesn't have what it takes to win NFC Championship games. That's nonsense.

[Deputy Nutz]

The question then, is why do the Packers find them selves on the other side of the coin? I mean if we want to break it down to singular plays why are the Packers losing those more often than winning? After a while it isn't just mystical luck.

[vince]

OK that's the question, and it's a complicated one with no silver bullet answer. I admit it's tempting to take the easy path because we demand answers, but suggesting or thinking the answer is simple is fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the game in my opinion.

In my opinion, the simplest and biggest reason for their coming up short in the NFC Championship this year was their injury depleted pass defense, predominantly their corners but throughout the defense to some extent. Had Shields been healthy this year, not only may they well have matched up far better against Atlanta, they may have been playing them at home, which is also a huge factor. Failure to cash in on the first two sustained drives also played a role, etc. etc.

There are a lot of possible reasons, and plenty of room for a diversity of opinion. You can look at the receiver situation the year prior, The Doink the year prior... Again none of those are THE reason but probably rank high among them.

The Packers have had their opportunities, which is way more than half the challenge. Then it might be about health, match-ups, home field, turnovers, ball control, game planning, a big play at the right time, etc., etc. The other teams are pretty good too when you're playing at the championship level.

Boiling all that down to coaching is such a gross oversimplification and misunderstanding of a complex situation that it's unrealistic. Bad coaches don't go to the playoffs year after year. Bad coaches don't sustain winning programs. Good coaches lose games, particularly when they're overmatched in certain areas and/or when one individual's execution (or lack thereof) in one or a couple plays so often determines outcomes at the highest level.

Then you have people stating that the GM doesn't even want to win, or the coach is dumb, or in general make claims that are so far out in lalaland that there's just nowhere to go with them.

[Smidgeon]

OK that's the question, and it's a complicated one with no silver bullet answer. I admit it's tempting to take the easy path because we demand answers, but suggesting or thinking the answer is simple is fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the game in my opinion.

In my opinion, the simplest and biggest reason for their coming up short in the NFC Championship this year was their injury depleted pass defense, predominantly their corners but throughout the defense to some extent. Had Shields been healthy this year, not only may they well have matched up far better against Atlanta, they may have been playing them at home, which is also a huge factor. Failure to cash in on the first two sustained drives also played a role, etc. etc.

There are a lot of possible reasons, and plenty of room for a diversity of opinion. You can look at the receiver situation the year prior, The Doink the year prior... Again none of those are THE reason but probably rank high among them.

The Packers have had their opportunities, which is way more than half the challenge. Then it might be about health, match-ups, home field, turnovers, ball control, game planning, a big play at the right time, etc., etc. The other teams are pretty good too when you're playing at the championship level.

Boiling all that down to coaching is such a gross oversimplification and misunderstanding of a complex situation that it's unrealistic. Bad coaches don't go to the playoffs year after year. Bad coaches don't sustain winning programs. Good coaches lose games, particularly when they're overmatched in certain areas and/or when one individual's execution (or lack thereof) in one or a couple plays so often determines outcomes at the highest level.

Then you have people stating that the GM doesn't even want to win, or the coach is dumb, or in general make claims that are so far out in lalaland that there's just nowhere to go with them.

Regarding QBing/Coaching/whatever, I was looking at playoff records, super bowl appearances, etc since 1992 focused on Favre, Rodgers, Brady, Roethlisberger, Brees, and both Mannings (to cover very recent super bowl successes and the Favre-Rodgers comparison). Interesting to me, but nothing newly conclusive (Brady is head and shoulders above the others in career except in Playoff Appearances where Rodgers is hot on his tail), so not quite worth sharing overall.

But one thing that leaped off the page was when I backed off to the NFC/AFC comparison. Since 92 (25 years), the NFC has seen 13 one-appearance QBs in the super bowl. The AFC has only seen 7. Which means the NFC is more competitive (independent of competitive vs AFC).

Since Brady took over in 2001 (16 years), the AFC has only two one-appearance QBs (Gannon and Flacco), whereas the NFC has 10 (Brad Johnson, Delhomme, McNabb, Hasselback, Grossman, Brees, Rodgers, Kaepernick, Newton, Ryan). Only three have appeared in more than one SB at two each (Warner, Eli, Wilson). In that same time, the AF had three QBs with more than one appearance, and they all had 3+ (Roethlisberger, Peyton, Brady).

Since Rodgers took over in 08 (9 years), the NFC has only one QB that's been in the game more than once (Wilson), whereas the AFC has only one QB that has appeared only once (Flacco).

I don't know if there are definite conclusions to draw from this, but it's a pretty stark divide nonetheless.

[vince]

That is interesting. I considered putting out the idea/opinion that the NFC has had more higher quality teams competing than the AFC in the last decade but didn't have the time to research whether that was in fact the case.

EDIT: As I look back PB did make a good argument that the level of competition in the AFC has been lower.

[vince]

In the last decade, the NFC led in Super Bowl titles 5-2 before New England eked out 2 and Denver handled Carolina to tie the series up 5-5.

[woodbuck27]

Woody you're missing the point altogether. I'm not demeaning Bellichick or suggesting that I think his legacy is due to some mystical trait, luck or anything like that.

People are using one or two Packer NFC Championship losses - while ignoring the win and subsequent Super Bowl title - and blindly comparing McCarthy to Bellichick to claim de facto evidence that McCarthy doesn't have what it takes to win NFC Championship games. That's nonsense.

We cannot possibly compare MM the HC to Belichick the HC because Belichick the HC is also Belichick the GM.

Noone in the NFL works any harder than Bill Belichick.

Here is something I just discovered to illustrate his dedication and resolve. I have edited the original to cover the important points:

" Coaching is the second-best job Bill Belichick does. As amazing and meticulously prepared as he looks on the sidelines, he’s even better as the Patriots' de facto general manager. Anyone who has ever witnessed his work ethic will attest to the truth here.

A Belichick team is built ruthlessly. He watches more college tape than any other coach; attempting to unearth the next Julian Edelman or Tom Brady. And when those no-names blossom into bona fide stars, he erases their names from his vocabulary. Why? It only enhances their on-market value if he praises them publicly. Think about TT and the spot he has found himself in and Clay Matthews.

Imagine that kind of antagonist sitting across from you at a negotiation table. Wes Welker had no chance when he asked for a new deal; Belichick had a price in his mind, and he wasn't going to overspend. That same strategy has sent countless other stars—the Randy Mosses and Richard Seymours and Asante Samuels of his dynasty—out the door.

Bill Belichick has no problem walking away from a fan favorite.

He also has no problem walking away from freak athletes. Take Jamie Collins or Chandler Jones, two freak athletes the Patriots shipped off to other teams in 2016. Belichick made both calls; he can only tolerate so much freelancing away from his scheme before he breaks ties. In came cheaper bodies, like Kyle Van Noy and Chris Long. And in came another Lombardi Trophy.

Bill Belichick the football czar in New England already has a salary in mind for all of the current crop of FA's. Bill Belichick the HC/GM already knows what is necessary to win Super Bowl LII."

[vince]

NFL executives predict next year's Super Bowl matchup (http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/18612396/nfl-front-office-executives-predict-super-bowl-lii-matchup-2017)
John Clayton, ESPN

I asked five NFL front-office executives to predict the Super Bowl LII matchup, and three teams in each conference received votes.

AFC
Patriots 2 votes
Steelers 2 votes
Chiefs 1 vote

NFC
Packers 3 votes
Falcons 1 vote
Seahawks 1 vote


What NFL executives said:

"I would imagine [general manager] Ted Thompson will be a little more aggressive in free agency. Ted disdains using free agency and loves to build through the draft and undrafted players. But you can sense a lot of people are getting in his ear and suggesting filling some of the holes by signing a few extra veterans."

"Aaron Rodgers was the game's best quarterback down the stretch, and he should carry that over into next season. Think about it. They were 4-6. Rodgers was in a slump that went back into the 2015 season. Rodgers ran the table until the Atlanta game. He should play the whole season at that high level. Watch out."

"The Packers need help at running back and on defense. Well, guess what? It's a great draft for running backs and a very good one on defense. That should work in their behalf."

[woodbuck27]

This highlights all that Bill Belichick is (Click on the LINK below).

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2017/02/07/bill-belichick-no-days-off-chant

As Packer fans we are now used to wondering where TT is, as habitually he's not visible for days upon days ....into weeks? For a Green Bay fan the slogan:

" Have you had a Ted Thompson sighting? " ... is now common.

I bet it is like this a lot:

Anyone: " Hey Mike (Mike McCarthy) have you seen Ted lately?"

MM: " I don't know where in hell he is."

[ThunderDan]

Well, the day after GB lost to ATL, he was at the Senior Bowl practices scouting players.

[woodbuck27]

Well, the day after GB lost to ATL, he was at the Senior Bowl practices scouting players.

Yes he is really good at practising for his next job.

That cannot happen soon enough.

[Rutnstrut]

Yes he is really good at practising for his next job.

That cannot happen soon enough.

The problem is Murphy doesn't have the balls to get rid of Ted.

[vince]

The problem is Murphy doesn't have the balls to get rid of Ted.
You know he'd love to, but he's afraid. :bs:

[bobblehead]

2010 was a magical year. That was six years ago and they haven't been back since.

Let me list all the other teams other than NE who haven't won 2 superbowls in the last 6 years.

the end.

[bobblehead]

Brady>Rodgers
Not even a debate.



Brady isn't a better QB than Rodgers so what is the difference in number of championships? .

You realize you look like a tool when you do this right?

[Upnorth]

So tt sucks and has done nothing to help arod? I'll be the first to admit he isn't the greatest, I think he has done a good job.
The biggest argument is he has arod and and is wasting his career.
Arod is definitely one of the greatest qbs in history, but there are many great abs currently.
Compare the recent performance of the following teams with great was to the packers:
New Orleans
San Diego
Dallas
Arizona
Carolina
Atlanta
Seattle
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis

Only Pittsburgh Seattle and maybe Dallas (if you really stretch it) can compete with greenbay over the last 5 years for consistency.

Consistent teams without a star qb are kc and Denver. So to me tt is on the top teir of competitive teams in a grouping of 6 out of 31 teams (yes I meant 31)

[Pugger]

Ted's problem is he hasn't done nearly as well assembling a defense compared to the offense. The offense is pretty good outside of AR. We have a serviceable stable of WRs, a TE who works well with our QB if we resign Cook and one of the top O lines in the league. The only position on O than needs to be addressed is RB and if we resign Lacy, use Monty out of the backfield we can draft another one this spring.

With our offense we don't need an elite defense. Just a average or slightly above average will do the trick. If Ted can shore up the corner position and give us a more consistent pass rush that might be good enough. We were okay stopping the run most of the time. Atlanta didn't have an elite defense so perhaps that will work for us.

[Fritz]

New England is head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of results. There is no question. There is New England, then there is a tier of teams that compete nearly every year and have a legitimate shot. Green Bay is one of those teams. Then there are the so-so teams who get into the playoffs once in a while and are glad to be there. Then there are the Cleveland Browns.

[Pugger]

New England is head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of results. There is no question. There is New England, then there is a tier of teams that compete nearly every year and have a legitimate shot. Green Bay is one of those teams. Then there are the so-so teams who get into the playoffs once in a while and are glad to be there. Then there are the Cleveland Browns.

What NE is doing is unprecedented and historic, especially in this era of FA and a salary cap. Folks here and on other Packers' forums are complaining about us not doing likewise. If it were so easy how come nobody else in this league is as successful, even those with really good QBs? Are they a bunch of morons too? If you visit forums of other teams like the Steelers or Seattle those fans aren't bemoaning about what NE is doing or calling for the heads of their GM and HC and they have been about as successful as we have been in the last decade.

[Rutnstrut]

What NE is doing is unprecedented and historic, especially in this era of FA and a salary cap. Folks here and on other Packers' forums are complaining about us not doing likewise. If it were so easy how come nobody else in this league is as successful, even those with really good QBs? Are they a bunch of morons too? If you visit forums of other teams like the Steelers or Seattle those fans aren't bemoaning about what NE is doing or calling for the heads of their GM and HC and they have been about as successful as we have been in the last decade.

No one else has come close because no one else has hoody genius. He is the difference by far.

[texaspackerbacker]

Let's not get carried away with our admiration here hahahahaha. As has been said, Belichek wasn't all that special before coaching the Patriots. Certainly he's done well, and they've done well. However, it seems to me to be a matter of things just falling right for them. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, coaches can screw things up - and many do, but the "genius" aspect - the "magic" a coach can do to make good things happen - is extremely limited. To his credit, Belichek hasn't screwed things up, but I wouldn't take it much beyond that.

[Zool]

His halftime adjustments won a fuck ton of games. Saying otherwise is arguing just to argue. His cheating isn't great, but his coaching brain is.

[Deputy Nutz]

You realize you look like a tool when you do this right?
When you take the above quote of mine I was referring to GOAT. The bottom quote is skill and talent. Rodgers is pretty damn talented he just hasn't had the number of important wins that Brady has. Brady and the Patriots have used his talents to win 5 Super Bowls and attended seven. Brady has better results in bigger games.

[Deputy Nutz]

Let's not get carried away with our admiration here hahahahaha. As has been said, Belichek wasn't all that special before coaching the Patriots. Certainly he's done well, and they've done well. However, it seems to me to be a matter of things just falling right for them. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, coaches can screw things up - and many do, but the "genius" aspect - the "magic" a coach can do to make good things happen - is extremely limited. To his credit, Belichek hasn't screwed things up, but I wouldn't take it much beyond that.

Patriots were an average franchise before Bellichick. A short stint with the Browns shouldn't be enough to judge anyone's coaching credentials.

[vince]

Patriots were an average franchise before Bellichick. A short stint with the Browns shouldn't be enough to judge anyone's coaching credentials.
Belicheck was on the brink of turning the franchise around before Modell pulled the rug out from underneath the whole city. This great show gives a glimpse of what makes Belicheck what he is. It also shows how tough it is in the NFL and how good/great coaches can fail or come up short when everything doesn't come together. Definitely worth the watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzajFDF3z8

[vince]

And of course here's another trait that made Belicheck great.

Inside Spygate (http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart)


AS THE PATRIOTS became a dynasty and Belichick became the first coach to win three Super Bowls in four years, an entire system of covert videotaping was developed and a secret library created. "It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says. Sources with knowledge of the system say an advance scout would attend the games of upcoming Patriots opponents and assemble a spreadsheet of all the signals and corresponding plays. The scout would give it to Adams, who would spend most of the week in his office with the door closed, matching the notes to the tapes filmed from the sideline. Files were created, organized by opponent and by coach. During games, Walsh later told investigators, the Patriots' videographers were told to look like media members, to tape over their team logos or turn their sweatshirt inside out, to wear credentials that said Patriots TV or Kraft Productions. The videographers also were provided with excuses for what to tell NFL security if asked what they were doing: Tell them you're filming the quarterbacks. Or the kickers. Or footage for a team show.

[vince]

Many may remember this game (https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/341358-patriots-stealing-signals/?page=5) at Lambeau back in '07.


For a window into the Patriots’ tactics, multiple Packers sources provided a fascinating account of what happened in the 35-0 victory last Nov. 19.

A man identifying himself as a Patriots employee asked a security guard if he could shoot footage of Lambeau Field before the game, and permission was granted.

Just before the game, he requested to stay on the sidelines to record quarterback Tom Brady for the coaching staff. However, he was soon spotted filming the Packers defense and signaling Patriots coaches.

A member of the Packers security staff witnessed the exchange and asked him to leave. He retreated to the tunnel, continued filming, and appeared to be communicating with the coaches via hand signals before being escorted off the field.

Asked why the Patriots weren’t reported, a Packers executive suggested there was a code of silence regarding such matters, particularly after a blowout.

It’s interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff.

“It’s almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?” he said. “You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us.”

Following the season, Belichick conducted an interview with the Globe and singled out the Packers game as a turning point, coming on the heels of consecutive losses to the Jets and Colts.


This year there was a drone caught filming Falcons practices leading up to the Super Bowl (http://www.sbnation.com/2017/2/5/14514442/falcons-practice-drone-patriots-super-bowl-li). It was written off as just a neighbor.

[texaspackerbacker]

I say again, a large part of Patriot success is things just falling right i.e. luck. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if cheating as a bit of a factor too. Belichek is a good coach, but he ain't quite as special as some would make him out to be.

[Rutnstrut]

Many may remember this game (https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/341358-patriots-stealing-signals/?page=5) at Lambeau back in '07.



This year there was a drone caught filming Falcons practices leading up to the Super Bowl (http://www.sbnation.com/2017/2/5/14514442/falcons-practice-drone-patriots-super-bowl-li). It was written off as just a neighbor.

If you think other teams don't exploit the grey areas, including the Packers. You are definitely living in La la land.

[pbmax]

If you think other teams don't exploit the grey areas, including the Packers. You are definitely living in La la land.

They all do. Dungy admitted they did all they could to steal signals each week. At a minimum, they figured out the live signaler on the sideline for the offense so they could get a 1-3 second head start on sending out the correct personnel on D. Dungy employed noted signal stealer Howard Mudd. They also all can tape the opposite sideline.

But only one team was caught videotaping with sideline cameras during the game AFTER the League banned that specific practice.

[run pMc]

The Saints totally squandered and mismanaged Drew Brees!
The Vikings totally squandered RB Adrian Peterson (zero SBs)!
The Chargers wasted Rivers!!!
The Colts are wasting Luck!!!!!
Cam Newton needs Josh Norman!!!!!!
Shanahan killed RG3!!!!!!!!!

Waaaaaahhh time for a nap.

[texaspackerbacker]

The Saints totally squandered and mismanaged Drew Brees!
The Vikings totally squandered RB Adrian Peterson (zero SBs)!
The Chargers wasted Rivers!!!
The Colts are wasting Luck!!!!!
Cam Newton needs Josh Norman!!!!!!
Shanahan killed RG3!!!!!!!!!

Waaaaaahhh time for a nap.

All true, but NONE of them even approach the level of greatness of Aaron Rodgers.

[Pugger]

I say again, a large part of Patriot success is things just falling right i.e. luck. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if cheating as a bit of a factor too. Belichek is a good coach, but he ain't quite as special as some would make him out to be.

NE has been lucky (and unlucky twice) in their SB appearances. All but one - SB 38 against the Panthers in 2004 - were decided by 4 points or less. So they could be 1-6 in these SBs instead of 7-2 if things would have gone in their opponents favor like the INT against Seattle, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_Patriots_seasons