Reasons for Hope on Defense 2017 edition

[pbmax]

1. Kenny Clark. Everyone sobbing in their Cheerios or trying to hang Thompson with their blankies over not signing a lineman to cover for Guion's coming non-paid vacation has forgotten about the rookie. Outside of Daniels, he was the most effective D lineman at the end of last season and in the playoffs. He even show some pass rush which in vital in the 2-4-5, otherwise known as the base defense.

2. Jon and Ponch. 3rd and 2nd years, if healthy, might give the Packers a functional middle even if Clay isn't moved full time. They looked marvelous together early last season under injuries and Zeke Elliot pulled the rug out from under them.

3. Jayrone Elliot. Even I have my doubts here, but if this Fuckdoggle number from Demovsky is close to true

Although he has just four sacks over the past two seasons combined (one in 2016 and three in 2015), they have come on just 310 snaps, including playoffs. That works out to a sack every 77.5 snaps. That’s on par with Julius Peppers' mark of one sack every 75.1 snaps over the past two seasons and far exceeds Clay Matthews (one for every 127.4 snaps) and Datone Jones (one for every 264.5 snaps). By comparison, Nick Perry, who was re-signed to a five-year, $60 million deal by the Packers, had one sack for every 58.3 snaps he played the past two seasons.

then Jayrone might make you remember Julius Peppers fondly, rather than with lust in your heart. He got some guaranteed money in his non-tendered agreement, which means the Packers want to see more.

4. Holy Fackrell. If the replacement Spider Monkey gets a little stronger, he might be a better pass rusher than Elliot. If either Fackrell or Elliot can be a 3rd down pass rusher and let Matthews come from wherever, it might have a Woodson effect on the opponents passing game.

5. Kentrell Brice. Hyde is gone but this kid has athletic traits to burn and he likes to hit people. He's the 3rd safety but I would not be surprised if he got some work as a slot guy versus bigger pass catchers. I also think the team might survive the loss of a starter with him out there. More experience and knowledge of the defense might make him effective all game long.

6. Ha-Ha and Burnett. I am not a big fan of Burnett at ILB, but the combo is as good as any center backfield since Collins was playing. Once again I am hopeful communication issues will disappear with those vets back there.

7. House. Yes, kinda an if, but IF he returns close to his 2015 form, its a nice upgrade from anything on the bench at the beginning of last year.

8. Randall and Rollins. If healthy, it cannot be worse than last year. They need one to be ready to start by camp. Only one because either the youngsters behind them or some UDFA from Miami will take a job next year.

[Tony Oday]

Still would love two more vet CBs and a vet RB.

[Tony Oday]

You also missed Lowry.

[pbmax]

You also missed Lowry.

You write up alligator arms and I'll put him in there.

[BZnDallas]

There are definitely some reasons to have optimism. I like your list PB. I think Clark, Fackrell and Brice are the 3 I'd love to see the most improvement from. But any improvement from the ILBs or Elliot could give a shot of adrenaline to the D.

However that doesn't take away from the fact we could use a CB1. Although I think a healthy Randall, if he gets some confidence back, could be our guy. The OLB depth with Elliot and a draft pick or 2 could really help in closing up some holes, IF, they do their part in the draft and develop system.

[RashanGary]

Randall is better than his injured sophomore year. He got injured in week 1. Battled through, finally had surgery. Came back early and was nicked up in other ways the rest of the way. He will be better, much better. I'd bet on it.

[texaspackerbacker]

Nobody has mentioned Gunter. Some people seem to disrespect him for lack of speed, but I'd say instinct - which he has plenty of - trumps speed. I'd rather we had a top notch #1 Corner and Gunter as #2, but as of now, Gunter is the best we've got.

[gbgary]

Nobody has mentioned Gunter. Some people seem to disrespect him for lack of speed, but I'd say instinct - which he has plenty of - trumps speed. I'd rather we had a top notch #1 Corner and Gunter as #2, but as of now, Gunter is the best we've got.

yup...as shocking as that is to think about. they put him on everyone's #1 wr and he held his own most of the time.

[red]

Randall is better than his injured sophomore year. He got injured in week 1. Battled through, finally had surgery. Came back early and was nicked up in other ways the rest of the way. He will be better, much better. I'd bet on it.

No he did not, he got hurt in week 4, after a week 2 game where he made many of the same boneheaded mistakes that he was making at the end of the year

[red]

I feel like we on could have just brought back this same thread from last offseason, or the 5 or 6 offseason before that

"Oh, if only the manic Easter bunny comes down from the sky and touches these 10 players who either sucked last year or did next to nothing with h his manic bunny tail, then our defense will be great"

Yet we can't ntinue to be a joke on defense year after year

[BZnDallas]

I feel like we on could have just brought back this same thread from last offseason, or the 5 or 6 offseason before that

"Oh, if only the manic Easter bunny comes down from the sky and touches these 10 players who either sucked last year or did next to nothing with h his manic bunny tail, then our defense will be great"

Yet we can't ntinue to be a joke on defense year after year

Easter Bunny huh? So is that what you call it when rookies and other young players learn and get better? So the Easter Bunny had to touch Nick Collins 2 or 3 times?

This league has thousands of examples of young players learning and getting better. Just bc that learning curve isn't fast enough for you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

"Easter Bunny" hahaha

[3irty1]

Randall had the best game of his career week 1 last year, and showed enough during his rookie campaign that hope for his improvement isn't baseless. Its much like the Casey Hayward situation... only hopefully Randall will have his 2nd good season with the Packers. Randall's improvement is the right combination of needed to happen and likely to happen that this thread is made for.

Goodson has been a little like House. Has great man-to-man skills, good speed and length, but can't stay on the field. I could see a House 2015/2014 type season from him finally.

Perry and Matthews too could give a lot more production than last year with even average health between them. And they better for what they're pulling down. Elliot and Fackrell seem about as competent as the parade of backups we get a few promising snaps out of before turning over.

Clark, Lowry, and Daniels make that group look like the strength of the D at this point IMO. I'm secretly hoping a high draft pick gets added here.

I think we'll be seeing Burnett play some slot in a double switch with Brice this year. Gotta love the safety situation even minus Hyde.

The ILB are better than we're used to, but its hard to imagine them putting on a show. They already seem like overachievers to me.

All in all its easy to imagine how things could go right. Its always easy to imagine everyone getting hurt too. The hope for me is that while the D is consistently disappointing, they fail in a variety of ways. Each level of D has sucked and been top notch. They just need to put it all together.

[pbmax]

Nobody has mentioned Gunter. Some people seem to disrespect him for lack of speed, but I'd say instinct - which he has plenty of - trumps speed. I'd rather we had a top notch #1 Corner and Gunter as #2, but as of now, Gunter is the best we've got.

I just don't know how much better he will be. But he could easily be starting again. The coaches seemed to trust him most.

[hoosier]

Clark, Lowry, and Daniels make that group look like the strength of the D at this point IMO. I'm secretly hoping a high draft pick gets added here.

After seeing what happened to the secondary last year, I implore all posters never again to speak of any unit as the"strength of the defense." Just keep repeating that this defense has no strengths.

Is it possible that they see Brice as a more athletic version of Hyde? Has Brice taken to film the way Woodson and Hyde did?

[gbgary]

I just don't know how much better he will be. But he could easily be starting again. The coaches seemed to trust him most.

since all our dbs are basically backups shoved into starting rolls he very well could be starting unless someone really takes a giant step forward and shows he can play physical.

[Joemailman]

After seeing what happened to the secondary last year, I implore all posters never again to speak of any unit as the"strength of the defense." Just keep repeating that this defense has no strengths.



Wist already has that covered.

[texaspackerbacker]

Hyde was similar to Gunter: instincts/nose for the ball/ability to cover. Hayward was/is like that too. I'm not so sure about House. Goodson has been just the opposite although he's still as green as his Baylor jersey. I'm not as positive as many about Randall although I'm still hopeful. I actually like Rollins better, even though that is contradictory to liking Gunter. Rollins so far has been all ability and potential and not much on instinct.

I could see the Packer D being at least adequate and most or all of those mentioned performing good enough. The key to that, though, is compensation/gimmicks/scheming. Hell yeah, I mean Dom Capers. Without his coaching, a bunch of mostly mediocre individuals amount to a mediocre team D. With those schemes, and with our offense, we really could have a Super Bowl team.

[Bretsky]

1. Kenny Clark. Everyone sobbing in their Cheerios or trying to hang Thompson with their blankies over not signing a lineman to cover for Guion's coming non-paid vacation has forgotten about the rookie. Outside of Daniels, he was the most effective D lineman at the end of last season and in the playoffs. He even show some pass rush which in vital in the 2-4-5, otherwise known as the base defense.

2. Jon and Ponch. 3rd and 2nd years, if healthy, might give the Packers a functional middle even if Clay isn't moved full time. They looked marvelous together early last season under injuries and Zeke Elliot pulled the rug out from under them.

3. Jayrone Elliot. Even I have my doubts here, but if this Fuckdoggle number from Demovsky is close to true


then Jayrone might make you remember Julius Peppers fondly, rather than with lust in your heart. He got some guaranteed money in his non-tendered agreement, which means the Packers want to see more.

4. Holy Fackrell. If the replacement Spider Monkey gets a little stronger, he might be a better pass rusher than Elliot. If either Fackrell or Elliot can be a 3rd down pass rusher and let Matthews come from wherever, it might have a Woodson effect on the opponents passing game.

5. Kentrell Brice. Hyde is gone but this kid has athletic traits to burn and he likes to hit people. He's the 3rd safety but I would not be surprised if he got some work as a slot guy versus bigger pass catchers. I also think the team might survive the loss of a starter with him out there. More experience and knowledge of the defense might make him effective all game long.

6. Ha-Ha and Burnett. I am not a big fan of Burnett at ILB, but the combo is as good as any center backfield since Collins was playing. Once again I am hopeful communication issues will disappear with those vets back there.

7. House. Yes, kinda an if, but IF he returns close to his 2015 form, its a nice upgrade from anything on the bench at the beginning of last year.

8. Randall and Rollins. If healthy, it cannot be worse than last year. They need one to be ready to start by camp. Only one because either the youngsters behind them or some UDFA from Miami will take a job next year.


Are you drunk ? lol
You could do this every year

[pbmax]

Are you drunk ? lol
You could do this every year

Reasons for Hope.

But some of these are unique to right now. Name the last D lineman you thought was going to start ahead of Daniels or Raji/Guion.

[RashanGary]

No he did not, he got hurt in week 4, after a week 2 game where he made many of the same boneheaded mistakes that he was making at the end of the year

There was an article mid season said he got injured in the first week but tried to fight through until he finally had surgery. He was injured all year except week 1 where he dominated. So no, I disagree with you and bet he'll be better.

[pbmax]

There was an article mid season said he got injured in the first week but tried to fight through until he finally had surgery. He was injured all year except week 1 where he dominated. So no, I disagree with you and bet he'll be better.

That is what I remember but I cannot find that article. Its not in the injury news of rotoworld or similar, it must have been a deeper piece on JSO about his year.

Thumb injury versus Vikings: http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/10/03/resilient-randall-ready-bounce-back/91479202/

[red]

There was an article mid season said he got injured in the first week but tried to fight through until he finally had surgery. He was injured all year except week 1 where he dominated. So no, I disagree with you and bet he'll be better.

From mid season when he had the surgery

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17874575/damarious-randall-green-bay-packers-undergoes-surgery-groin-injury

First injured in week 4, tried to play the next week but didn't make it to halftime

A good write up that seems to support my side of the Randall equation

https://www.totalpackers.com/2016/12/really-injuries-damarious-randall/

[pbmax]

Got it: http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/10/26/randall-confident-surgery-right-thing-do/92797420/

Its a little bit speculative though I think it fits with his performance.


Randall is believed to have suffered the injury during the Week 2 game at Minnesota. He wasn't on the injury report the following week but said after the victory over Detroit on Sept. 25, that he was "a little banged up."

He showed up on the injury report on the first day of practice after the bye and then dropped out of the New York Giants game. He tried to come back against Dallas, but lasted only 17 snaps before dropping to the ground in pain and exiting the game.

[red]

http://www.espn.co.uk/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/219465/damarious-randall-doesnt-know-or-care-if-playing-through-injury-made-it-worse


Randall’s injury first surfaced in the week leading up to the Oct. 9 game against the Giants.

[HarveyWallbangers]

So, he was either injured in week 2 or week 3.

[RashanGary]

So, he was either injured in week 2 or week 3.

He was injured very early so anyone making long term judgements is going to be eating their words.

[red]

So, he was either injured in week 2 or week 3.

I think my articles say he was hurt during the by week

[Bretsky]

Reasons for Hope.

But some of these are unique to right now. Name the last D lineman you thought was going to start ahead of Daniels or Raji/Guion.


It might have been undrafted free agent Mike Pennell.....but deep down I thought he was juicing....but I liked him for a while

TT has failed multiple times via the draft here....TRIVIA...who was that worthless POS third round draft pick most of us hated from day one ? I'm surprised as I'm usually pretty good with remembering picks but I can't even recall his name.

[esoxx]

Khyri Thornton?

[pbmax]

http://www.espn.co.uk/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/219465/damarious-randall-doesnt-know-or-care-if-playing-through-injury-made-it-worse

Randall’s injury first surfaced in the week leading up to the Oct. 9 game against the Giants.



So, he was either injured in week 2 or week 3.

I think red's links, and frankly the majority of stories from a Google search, reference red's date. But the reason they do that is because its easily verifiable as he appears on the injury report for the first time.

But I trust Silverstein knows something he is not at liberty to reveal, otherwise he wouldn't give a Randall quote from Sept 25 but date the injury a week earlier.

[pbmax]

It might have been undrafted free agent Mike Pennell.....but deep down I thought he was juicing....but I liked him for a while

TT has failed multiple times via the draft here....TRIVIA...who was that worthless POS third round draft pick most of us hated from day one ? I'm surprised as I'm usually pretty good with remembering picks but I can't even recall his name.

Fair point. But I think there are real upsides to be had on the front 7. The backend has more holes in its hope quilt.

[pbmax]

nm

[red]

I think red's links, and frankly the majority of stories from a Google search, reference red's date. But the reason they do that is because its easily verifiable as he appears on the injury report for the first time.

But I trust Silverstein knows something he is not at liberty to reveal, otherwise he wouldn't give a Randall quote from Sept 25 but date the injury a week earlier.

Or when you article mentions that Randall said he was "a little banged up", he could update have been talking about something unrelated to his groin, like bumps and bruises, like every player has during the season

If he was injured in week 2, and didn't show up on the injury report for a "groin", then the packers would have broken the rules just like the Seahawks did with Sherman or the steelers did with bell or the jets did with favre

[red]

He was injured very early so anyone making long term judgements is going to be eating their words.

It all depends on when the injury happened

Weeks 2 and 3 he was horrible and looked like the exact same player he was after the injury

So if he really was injured week 2, then he had a very probable excuse. However, if he was only hurt during the bye week(week 4. Then imo there's huge reason for concern because he showed the same shitty problems that he showed at the end of the year

He also, if I'm not mistaken had one or two really bad game at the end of the previous season

So I see a pattern before and after the injury after he lost his swagger

[HarveyWallbangers]

Unless they didn't know about it. Sometimes a player thinks he's just dinged up a bit and doesn't go to the team doctor right away. Happens quite often. Regardless, he was listed as questionable on the first injury report after the week 3 game, so he was very likely injured in week 3. There's a chance he was initially injured in week 2 or had something else bothering him. A player doesn't usually talk about being dinged after two games if he's not dealing with something. The fact is he was dealing with injuries most of the year. Count me in the camp that he'll rebound. He showed me a lot his rookie year. This is similar to Hayward's career projectory.

[bobblehead]

Reasons for hope. In the draft thread we are picking Dalvin Cook apparently. So, TT and MM plan on running the ball 50 times a game to keep the D off the fields as much as possible.

[gbgary]

Reasons for Hope on Defense 2017 edition

9. they can only be better as they can't be much worse.

[texaspackerbacker]

Reasons for hope. In the draft thread we are picking Dalvin Cook apparently. So, TT and MM plan on running the ball 50 times a game to keep the D off the fields as much as possible.

Where did you here that? Cook would be a damn good pick if indeed we go for an RB. He's basically a Montgomery type speed back - the best of that type IMO in the draft. That still doesn't - and damn well shouldn't - run 50 times a game or anywhere near it. It just means having an even more effective change of pace to Aaron Rodgers passing first and most.

The way D enters into it is you score and score and score some more, and force the opponent to take some chances. Then you get ball hawkish and come up with turnovers.

[Brandon494]

Nice write up and hopefully we can get a rookie or two who will make an impact on defense. I was all about getting a CB in the 1st but now I think we should go pass rusher, CB in the 2nd with it being a heavy draft for that position, than OL in the 3rd but who the fuck knows with Ted.

[KYPack]

Nobody has mentioned Gunter. Some people seem to disrespect him for lack of speed, but I'd say instinct - which he has plenty of - trumps speed. I'd rather we had a top notch #1 Corner and Gunter as #2, but as of now, Gunter is the best we've got.

Gunter has the best pre-snap mechanics of any of the CBs. He's no speed demon, but has good field sense. I'd like to see him work into Casey Hayward's old gig. Capers likes a cover 2-like deploy of the safeties. There are a few jobs he can do and do 'em well. He's no iso corner, but he is a decent defensive back.

[Pugger]

Reasons for hope. In the draft thread we are picking Dalvin Cook apparently. So, TT and MM plan on running the ball 50 times a game to keep the D off the fields as much as possible.

I really wonder if Cook will last until #29.

[bobblehead]

I really wonder if Cook will last until #29.

i was being sarcastic. I don't think we will take a RB in the first. Kiper is smoking crack again.

[pbmax]

i was being sarcastic. I don't think we will take a RB in the first. Kiper is smoking crack again.

That is a mock draft done by someone looking at a depth chart.

HEY! They only have one running back and he used to be a WR!

[Zool]

That is a mock draft done by someone looking at a depth chart.

HEY! They only have one running back and he used to be a WR!

Didn't need a QB in 2005 but drafted one. If Cook is on the board and is higher on the board by a decent margin, why not take him. He's Matt Forte with more speed.

[pbmax]

Didn't need a QB in 2005 but drafted one. If Cook is on the board and is higher on the board by a decent margin, why not take him. He's Matt Forte with more speed.

Wasn't an argument about Cook, was an argument about trusting Kiper.

[Rutnstrut]

Wasn't an argument about Cook, was an argument about trusting Kiper.

NEVER trust anyone that looks like DRACULA...

[Zool]

Wasn't an argument about Cook, was an argument about trusting Kiper.

Well he is a moron, but he might be looking at draft history too? Maybe that's just me.

[wist43]

1. Kenny Clark. Everyone sobbing in their Cheerios or trying to hang Thompson with their blankies over not signing a lineman to cover for Guion's coming non-paid vacation has forgotten about the rookie. Outside of Daniels, he was the most effective D lineman at the end of last season and in the playoffs. He even show some pass rush which in vital in the 2-4-5, otherwise known as the base defense.

2. Jon and Ponch. 3rd and 2nd years, if healthy, might give the Packers a functional middle even if Clay isn't moved full time. They looked marvelous together early last season under injuries and Zeke Elliot pulled the rug out from under them.

3. Jayrone Elliot. Even I have my doubts here, but if this Fuckdoggle number from Demovsky is close to true


then Jayrone might make you remember Julius Peppers fondly, rather than with lust in your heart. He got some guaranteed money in his non-tendered agreement, which means the Packers want to see more.

4. Holy Fackrell. If the replacement Spider Monkey gets a little stronger, he might be a better pass rusher than Elliot. If either Fackrell or Elliot can be a 3rd down pass rusher and let Matthews come from wherever, it might have a Woodson effect on the opponents passing game.

5. Kentrell Brice. Hyde is gone but this kid has athletic traits to burn and he likes to hit people. He's the 3rd safety but I would not be surprised if he got some work as a slot guy versus bigger pass catchers. I also think the team might survive the loss of a starter with him out there. More experience and knowledge of the defense might make him effective all game long.

6. Ha-Ha and Burnett. I am not a big fan of Burnett at ILB, but the combo is as good as any center backfield since Collins was playing. Once again I am hopeful communication issues will disappear with those vets back there.

7. House. Yes, kinda an if, but IF he returns close to his 2015 form, its a nice upgrade from anything on the bench at the beginning of last year.

8. Randall and Rollins. If healthy, it cannot be worse than last year. They need one to be ready to start by camp. Only one because either the youngsters behind them or some UDFA from Miami will take a job next year.

The rain on your parade is that most of those guys have low ceilings.

No way should Clark have been a 1st round pick - Datone Jones Part II.

Ryan and Martinez are "try hard" guys, but that's just another way of saying pedestrian.

Fackrell is a heady player and has some measurables, but he's a step slow and lacks explosion.

Randall and Rollins can be okay I think, but certainly not upper echelon material.

Of all the young guys, Ol' Alligator Arms Lowry probably has the most upside.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those things said, those guys represent Ted's vision for improving the defense. What does that get us to?? Average??

We were 31st in pass D last year, and the pass rush sucked... I don't hold our run defense in much regard either. In short, our defense sucks big-time, and I just don't see the young guys vaulting us into sort of respectability. TT, and you, and Packerdom, are looking at these guys with rose colored glasses.

[Zool]

Or, instead of constantly shitting in everyone's cheerios, he's trying to add new discussion points to a forum. You know, new thoughts and ideas?

[wist43]

Or, instead of constantly shitting in everyone's cheerios, he's trying to add new discussion points to a forum. You know, new thoughts and ideas?

Lemonade out of lemons, huh... lol

[Zool]

Lemonade out of lemons, huh... lol

Or try and be a positive influence on the world instead of a negative one.

[wist43]

Or try and be a positive influence on the world instead of a negative one.

You mean like a good Swede?? Rape is not rape, when an immigrant male has a "sexual emergency" ;)

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength"... that sort of thing??

How's that for positivity?? Am I on my way to being a Social Justice Warrior???

------------------------------------------------------------------

If I see any positives, it is that TT is actually signing some people. If they can only hit on some defenders in the draft - then, yeah, maybe we can improve enough to contend; but - and it is a huge BUT - TT and the Packers organization will have to get IT figured out in terms of evaluating defenders in the draft; or, get wildly lucky; and, Dom will have be decidedly un-Dom like in the playoffs.

The sad fact is that TT and the Packers as an organization have a pathetically miserable record of drafting and developing defense. It is what it is... If you can't bring yourself to call a spade a spade - then watching defensive breakdown after defensive meltdown is an enjoyable thing for you, and Dom is certainly the DC for you.

[Carolina_Packer]

It's amazing how much better of a coach Capers is when he has Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland, Chad Brown, Rod Woodson, Deon Figures, Darren Perry, Brentson Buckner...

Players not schemes. Coaches can make a difference, but they have to have players, and those players are chosen by the GM, and scouted by the scouts. I listed players from the 1994 Steelers. Three of those guys were 1st Team All-Pro. That's a who's who list there. In the TT/MM era, when have the Packers even had half that many good players on defense in one season?

If you live by the philosophy of draft and develop and you are typically not active in free agency to fill needs, then the only way you are going to have an opportunity to build a defensive roster like the players above is through the draft. That means your hit vs. miss rate must be even more special as a GM, and your additional picks may never pan out.

Of the players I listed above, Greg Lloyd was a 6th rounder and Kevin Greene was a 5th rounder. Obviously both are self-made guys who worked hard and maximized their talents. The others listed were mostly 1st and 2nd round guys, save for Perry who was an 8th round guy (before they went down to 7 rounds).

The point is, these excellent players were great together and guess who their DC was? None other than Spray Paint Hair, Dunder Dummy himself. I bet candidly, Dom wishes he had the players above vs. some of the "developing" players he now has. I bet Rodgers wishes that too. :-) The 1994 Steelers team was not a fart in the wind either. Capers was hired by Cowher when he took over the Steelers in 1992, and the Steelers already had a lot of good players on defense. Capers 1999 Jaguars defense was very good. A few of his defenses in Green Bay have been good.

The Packers have some talent on defense, but not to the level of defenses that Dom has coached previously. If someone else shops for the groceries and cuts corners, or doesn't realize what the right ingredients are, don't blame the cook, he did the best he could. Something was sure cooking in the front office of the Steelers in the early 90's and the Jags of the late 90's, and they had the same idiot DC.

TT has drafted okay overall on defense, but he has had a lot of misses, especially in the early rounds when you need to hit more often. When you draft Jerel Wothy and Khyri Thornton and they are gone before their rookie contracts are up, that's either bad luck (injuries) or bad evaluation. Dom can't overcome bad picks. He coaches whoever is on the roster. Give him some more excellent players.

[texaspackerbacker]

Quality of players may set the upper limit - how good a D can be as in the case of Capers' good Steeler D teams or how far above the abyss in the case of the current Capers' Packers D. It's the SCHEME though, compensating for mediocrity or maximizing good quality, that sets apart defenses with Capers from most of the rest of them.

[smuggler]

No way should Clark have been a 1st round pick - Datone Jones Part II.

Did you even watch Clark play last year? If he plays as he did in the playoffs last season, he was an excellent late first round pick. He contributed to a playoff run, so he's already a better pick than Datone.

[wist43]

It's amazing how much better of a coach Capers is when he has Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland, Chad Brown, Rod Woodson, Deon Figures, Darren Perry, Brentson Buckner...

Players not schemes. Coaches can make a difference, but they have to have players, and those players are chosen by the GM, and scouted by the scouts. I listed players from the 1994 Steelers. Three of those guys were 1st Team All-Pro. That's a who's who list there. In the TT/MM era, when have the Packers even had half that many good players on defense in one season?

If you live by the philosophy of draft and develop and you are typically not active in free agency to fill needs, then the only way you are going to have an opportunity to build a defensive roster like the players above is through the draft. That means your hit vs. miss rate must be even more special as a GM, and your additional picks may never pan out.

Of the players I listed above, Greg Lloyd was a 6th rounder and Kevin Greene was a 5th rounder. Obviously both are self-made guys who worked hard and maximized their talents. The others listed were mostly 1st and 2nd round guys, save for Perry who was an 8th round guy (before they went down to 7 rounds).

The point is, these excellent players were great together and guess who their DC was? None other than Spray Paint Hair, Dunder Dummy himself. I bet candidly, Dom wishes he had the players above vs. some of the "developing" players he now has. I bet Rodgers wishes that too. :-) The 1994 Steelers team was not a fart in the wind either. Capers was hired by Cowher when he took over the Steelers in 1992, and the Steelers already had a lot of good players on defense. Capers 1999 Jaguars defense was very good. A few of his defenses in Green Bay have been good.

The Packers have some talent on defense, but not to the level of defenses that Dom has coached previously. If someone else shops for the groceries and cuts corners, or doesn't realize what the right ingredients are, don't blame the cook, he did the best he could. Something was sure cooking in the front office of the Steelers in the early 90's and the Jags of the late 90's, and they had the same idiot DC.

TT has drafted okay overall on defense, but he has had a lot of misses, especially in the early rounds when you need to hit more often. When you draft Jerel Wothy and Khyri Thornton and they are gone before their rookie contracts are up, that's either bad luck (injuries) or bad evaluation. Dom can't overcome bad picks. He coaches whoever is on the roster. Give him some more excellent players.

The game has changed... the rules have changed.

Dom has adapted to some extent, i.e. he was playing nickel about 1/2 the time during our SB run in '10. Don't know what the percentages were for teams running sub-packages back then, and I can't remember when the coverage rules changed, but I acknowledge that Dom was on top of it then.

That said, he had a lot more talent to work with then; he didn't play as much static 2-4 as he does now; and, he did a good job of mixing other alignments. None of those things is true today - or has been true for years now.

TT drafted defensive front "seven" players without regard to how they would fit what Capers was doing, and Capers simply refused to make any adjustments - the result was a mess, and continues to be a mess.

Things got so bad, that MM finally had to get involved with the defense in the offseason a couple of years ago, and the result was that they came out with that elephant - which as a 1/2 step in the right direction given the personnel we had.

Excuses can be made for injuries - but the bottom line is our defense is always worse than the talent we have available. That's on Dom all the way... he needed to be fired years ago. Unfortunately, he isn't going anywhere.

[wist43]

Did you even watch Clark play last year? If he plays as he did in the playoffs last season, he was an excellent late first round pick. He contributed to a playoff run, so he's already a better pick than Datone.

I didn't watch all the games... but tried to tape them and skim thru as best I could. I just don't have the free time I used to have...

That said, from what I did see... Clark can hold his own 1 on 1, but I didn't see him defeat a single double team, he struggles to disengage - in fact he rarely is able to disengage - he never made any play, and he showed exactly zero burst.

He played like a mid-round pick - a rotational body. Certainly didn't show any 1st round skills.

[smuggler]

You're overestimating the value you get from a lot of 1st round picks. If he becomes a good player, not just a guy (as with Datone) then he was worth the pick. Of course he didn't look like a star most of last season, because he was a rookie. He didn't even get real reps in until the end of the year. We'll see if he improves in 2017.

[Upnorth]

I agree with wrists evaluation of Clark for the first 8 or so games. Starting somewhere around week 10 he started to improve. I don't remember him beating a lot of double teams, but I believe his arrow is pointing up not flat based on age and late season rookie growth instead of fading out like many rookies do.

[pbmax]

I think the kid can play. Even early, when he was getting shoved around by double teams in the run game, he would occasionally get his guy in a bad position and flat out defeat him and get disengaged.

He almost looks like he had Daniels wrestling balance and strength.

At the end of the season he had stopped thinking and was beating guys by being quick too. I think the kid can play now, much unlike Jones.

[beveaux1]

"Experts" say that only 10 to 15 players have true first round talent in most drafts. When you consistently pick later than 24th in the first round, you get second round grades on those picks. You either take someone raw like a 20 year old NT with a high upside or a college safety that you project to play CB after a learning curve who also has a high upside. Another choice is to pick a position like G, RB, or S that is not highly valued so that you can get a first round talent with your late first round pick. Another choice, if you cannot find a trade partner willing to allow you to drop back to the 2nd round, is to choose someone at a highly valued position who is more polished but without the high upside that a first round pick usually has. In other words, a pick that would normally have 2nd round or later value. The last choice, one which the Packers do not usually make, is to take someone with significant character or injury risks, but with a high upside. Justin Harrell might have been the last choice we made with this type of pick.

This year's draft, as characterized by "experts" has the usual 10 or so first round talents but an unusually high number of 2nd and 3rd round talent, perhaps stretching into the 4th or 5th round at some positions. Positions that match our need. It will be interesting to see what we do on draft day and maybe even in the weeks after draft day in putting together the last 10 members of our roster.

[pbmax]

Everyone moaning about Capers refuses to remember its been the defense rather than the offense playing the best ball in the postseason, 3 out of the last 4 years.

Its still too uneven, they get blown out WAY too often, but Dom has delivered more than the offense lately in the postseason.

[BZnDallas]

Everyone moaning about Capers refuses to remember its been the defense rather than the offense playing the best ball in the postseason, 3 out of the last 4 years.

Its still too uneven, they get blown out WAY too often, but Dom has delivered more than the offense lately in the postseason.

Not sure I quite follow your rationale PB. I don't remember losing many playoff games only giving up 20 points. I do agree that the offensive production versus the defensive production is very uneven and closing the gap is really what we need in a vague sort of explanation.

[bobblehead]

Everyone moaning about Capers refuses to remember its been the defense rather than the offense playing the best ball in the postseason, 3 out of the last 4 years.

Its still too uneven, they get blown out WAY too often, but Dom has delivered more than the offense lately in the postseason.

Agree 100%. Its been a gripe of mine that the vaunted MM offenses seem to struggle in the postseason.

Not saying Capers D has been awesome, but generally adequate. I can't put a finger on why, its possible he game plans more intensely in the post season?

[BZnDallas]

Welp, Idk where my mind is PB, but over looking the last few years as a whole it seems you're on to something. Apologies good sir.

[bobblehead]

Not sure I quite follow your rationale PB. I don't remember losing many playoff games only giving up 20 points. I do agree that the offensive production versus the defensive production is very uneven and closing the gap is really what we need in a vague sort of explanation.

Lets take a look.

2012- Held the Vikings to 10 points, but then had no answer for the read option. Primarily Eric Walden's issue, but nearly everyone on the D was at fault once.
2013- Lost wildcard weekend, held 49ers to 23 points...20 most of the game.
2014- Held the cowpies to 21 points, got 6? picks against seattle in championship game held seattle to 7 points through 3 Q. 22 in regulation. Offense couldn't put it away despite all that.
2015- Held Redskins to 18, Held Cardinals to 10 in 3 Q, 20 in regulation...again, offense couldn't (wouldn't?) put it away...lost in OT.
2016- Held Giants to 13 points, but stunk on ice the next 2.

So, looking at 2013/14/15 I would say the D was up to the task in the playoffs.

[Pugger]

Did you even watch Clark play last year? If he plays as he did in the playoffs last season, he was an excellent late first round pick. He contributed to a playoff run, so he's already a better pick than Datone.

Agreed. Jones was a mistake. He never was a good fit. Let MN have him and his boneheaded penalties.

[Fritz]

If Randall and Rollins are playing together next year, we ought to nickname them "Dollar Short" and "Day Late."

[Bretsky]

Dom is OK; I won't argue with those who think a change is needed to move in another direction....but I think anybody who bashes Dom endlessly ingnores all of the deficiencies Ted Thompson has left him with on defense. Boat without paddle at times

[Pugger]

I suspect Dom is highly regarded by his peers but not so much by the fans in the stands.

[Zool]

If Randall and Rollins are playing together next year, we ought to nickname them "Dollar Short" and "Day Late."

I really wish Fat Eddie would have stuck around. It would have been Cagney and Lacy in the backfield, Ponch and John at ILB, and Day Late and Dollar short at DB.

[BZnDallas]

Lets take a look.

2012- Held the Vikings to 10 points, but then had no answer for the read option. Primarily Eric Walden's issue, but nearly everyone on the D was at fault once.
2013- Lost wildcard weekend, held 49ers to 23 points...20 most of the game.
2014- Held the cowpies to 21 points, got 6? picks against seattle in championship game held seattle to 7 points through 3 Q. 22 in regulation. Offense couldn't put it away despite all that.
2015- Held Redskins to 18, Held Cardinals to 10 in 3 Q, 20 in regulation...again, offense couldn't (wouldn't?) put it away...lost in OT.
2016- Held Giants to 13 points, but stunk on ice the next 2.

So, looking at 2013/14/15 I would say the D was up to the task in the playoffs.

Haha, just now saw this Bobble. Thanks but already looked it up. I think the problem is with consistency. I wouldn't really say either side played their best ball. Offense or defense.

[bobblehead]

Haha, just now saw this Bobble. Thanks but already looked it up. I think the problem is with consistency. I wouldn't really say either side played their best ball. Offense or defense.

Agreed, but if the narrative is that we are wasting Rodgers, I would argue that he needs to put 24 on the board in regulation to justify that argument.

[pbmax]

Haha, just now saw this Bobble. Thanks but already looked it up. I think the problem is with consistency. I wouldn't really say either side played their best ball. Offense or defense.

Consistency would be good. A Plan C to avoid a blowout would also be welcome.

[Pugger]

I really wish Fat Eddie would have stuck around. It would have been Cagney and Lacy in the backfield, Ponch and John at ILB, and Day Late and Dollar short at DB.

:lol:

Fat Eddie didn't leave because we low balled him - he left so he could play in a run first offense in Seattle and get out of the cold.

Right now I'm listening to WDUZ on the computer talk about the Pack and the local hosts are wringing their hands over the fact we have to get a RB in the draft instead of a vet. The only vet who got any attention so far is Eddie. There is a reason why the other guys including AP are still unemployed. Isn't RB the easiest position for a rookie to make decent contribution for his team?

[Bretsky]

:lol:

Fat Eddie didn't leave because we low balled him - he left so he could play in a run first offense in Seattle and get out of the cold.

Right now I'm listening to WDUZ on the computer talk about the Pack and the local hosts are wringing their hands over the fact we have to get a RB in the draft instead of a vet. The only vet who got any attention so far is Eddie. There is a reason why the other guys including AP are still unemployed. Isn't RB the easiest position for a rookie to make decent contribution for his team?


I think they are all asking for way too much money; but teams may squeeze them as we approach the draft. Some teams, including GB, may be inclined to consider signing a RB and once the draft occurs and we draft one.....no mas in terms of interests.

JAMAL CHARLES......if he was healthy he's be the fit in GB