Schum out

[MadScientist]

Packers released Schum:
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/06/01/packers-release-punter-jacob-schum/362171001/

The musical chairs at punter continues. He was waived-injured with a back injury, so either the Packers didn't think he would heal, or just thought he wasn't good enough.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good Move. Maybe bring in another UDFA for competition, but it seems like Vogel is a major upgrade from Schum.

[pbmax]

Good Move. Maybe bring in another UDFA for competition, but it seems like Vogel is a major upgrade from Schum.

What have you heard? He is a UDFA from Miami, no pro track record.

Seems ludicrous to trust him to be ready as a rookie.

[Patler]

What have you heard? He is a UDFA from Miami, no pro track record.

Seems ludicrous to trust him to be ready as a rookie.

I don't think they cut Schum because of him, I think they cut Schum because he came back injured and they didn't see a need to tie up a roster spot for him, when they can probably resign him if he gets healthy. I doubt there is a line of GM's waiting for Schum to be available.

I expect there will be another punter on the roster before TC starts.

[pbmax]

I don't think they cut Schum because of him, I think they cut Schum because he came back injured and they didn't see a need to tie up a roster spot for him, when they can probably resign him if he gets healthy. I doubt there is a line of GM's waiting for Schum to be available.

I expect there will be another punter on the roster before TC starts.

I agree with you. I wanted to know why tex thought it was an upgrade and worth the risk.

[Zool]

I agree with you. I wanted to know why tex thought it was an upgrade and worth the risk.

Hyperbole

https://boknowswriting.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/tickled-tuesdays-08-25-15.jpg

[gbgary]

meh. he did lead the league in fewest punts returned, or fewest return yards, or something like that though.

[texaspackerbacker]

What have you heard? He is a UDFA from Miami, no pro track record.

Seems ludicrous to trust him to be ready as a rookie.

I know ..... I meant maybe bring in another one in case Vogel doesn't pan out.

I don't see any reason he can't do well as a rookie, though.

[gbgary]

oops...it was lowest % of returnable punts.

[ThunderDan]

oops...it was lowest % of returnable punts.

It felt like every time we needed a good punt he hit a 32 yarder that went out of bounds for no return.

I remember at warm-ups last year and watching Schum boom punts before games. He never got off a punt close to his warm-ups in game action.

[Joemailman]

It felt like every time we needed a good punt he hit a 32 yarder that went out of bounds for no return.

I remember at warm-ups last year and watching Schum boom punts before games. He never got off a punt close to his warm-ups in game action.

Against both Dallas and Atlanta in the playoffs he averaged 54 yards per punt. I thought he got off to a bad start last year but then really turned it around.

[gbgary]

Against both Dallas and Atlanta in the playoffs he averaged 54 yards per punt. I thought he got off to a bad start last year but then really turned it around.

me too.

[vince]

Against both Dallas and Atlanta in the playoffs he averaged 54 yards per punt. I thought he got off to a bad start last year but then really turned it around.
Yeah Schum was 16th ranked in net average for the year at 39.8, but the last 3 games (playoff games) he netted 43.4 which would have been 3rd in the league had he done that all year.

It's all about net average in Green Bay, the ball just doesn't travel as far, and Schum did an underrated job overall I think. He's replaceable though obviously.

Don't drop the ball here Teddy. Maybe there's some Austrailian who can run around, threaten some first downs and "kick it where they ain't" when he can't get the first down...

[texaspackerbacker]

The key is can Vogel do the job as holder for Crosby. I was hoping they woulda kept that guy last year who came from Green Bay, went to U. of Minnesota, and won some award as the Big Ten's best holder, in addition to having damn good punting numbers and some all around athleticism. Maybe still bring him in to compete.

In general, though, there's no reason I can think of why a punter would not have as good numbers in the NFL as college, and therefore, not be decent right from the start as a pro.

[MadScientist]

In general, though, there's no reason I can think of why a punter would not have as good numbers in the NFL as college, and therefore, not be decent right from the start as a pro.

You can't just look at a punter's numbers in college and expect them to translate to the NFL. Often punters in college can get away with bad practices or forms that you can't do at this level. The biggest thing is the snap to kick time. Look at how many colleges have these rugby style punters who take a bunch of steps before kicking. That won't fly against an NFL rush. Even with normal punters, many take an extra step or are just a bit slower than needed for the NFL. Fixing those problems can screw up a punters consistency.

[texaspackerbacker]

Why the hell not? Possible better rush on the guy is cancelled out by better protection. If somebody averages 43 or 44 yards with good placement and height in top level college, there's no reason not to expect it in the NFL. Ditto that with place kickers. There are a helluva lot of both coming out every year. There shouldn't be any reason to pay them big money. Ted is right to treat them like they are disposable.

[pbmax]

Why the hell not? Possible better rush on the guy is cancelled out by better protection. If somebody averages 43 or 44 yards with good placement and height in top level college, there's no reason not to expect it in the NFL. Ditto that with place kickers. There are a helluva lot of both coming out every year. There shouldn't be any reason to pay them big money. Ted is right to treat them like they are disposable.

For one thing, the football is different. So the kicks are different.

In Madison, this is referred to as the Kevin Stemke effect. Unless you are Mike Lucas and you blame the GB coaches for screwing him up.

[Patler]

Why the hell not? Possible better rush on the guy is cancelled out by better protection. If somebody averages 43 or 44 yards with good placement and height in top level college, there's no reason not to expect it in the NFL. Ditto that with place kickers. There are a helluva lot of both coming out every year. There shouldn't be any reason to pay them big money. Ted is right to treat them like they are disposable.

One NFL punter said the difference is this: in college he stood still, caught an arched snap, secured the ball, then started his three-step approach to the kick. In the NFL he had to catch a line-drive snap as he was starting his two-step approach to the kick. Everything is just much faster, just as it is in every aspect of the game for players coming from college to the pros in every sport.

[Joemailman]

If Vogel struggles I wouldn't be surprised if they bring Schum back, if his injury is healed. Right now, they may not want to tie up a roster spot with a punter who can't punt.

[Cheesehead Craig]

One NFL punter said the difference is this: in college he stood still, caught an arched snap, secured the ball, then started his three-step approach to the kick. In the NFL he had to catch a line-drive snap as he was starting his two-step approach to the kick. Everything is just much faster, just as it is in every aspect of the game for players coming from college to the pros in every sport.

To add to this, there are different rules for the "ineligible player downfield" penalty. In the NFL, only the players at the side of the formation, the "gunners", are allowed to run toward the punt returner as soon as the ball is snapped. All the rest of those along the line of scrimmage can't go more than a yard forward until the ball is kicked.

Under NCAA rules, the linemen can run toward the punt returner right after the snap. So many of the linemen take advantage of this and run forward after the snap. So if the college teams want to have anything resembling a return, they need to go back right away to help blocking. So the punter can take the 3 steps, run around and such as there's less pressure on him. In the pros, that time simply isn't there.

[Zool]

If Vogel struggles I wouldn't be surprised if they bring Schum back, if his injury is healed. Right now, they may not want to tie up a roster spot with a punter who can't punt.

This seems the likely scenario. Why keep him on the roster to heal? He's not collecting checks right now anyway. I suppose he doesn't have access to team doctors right now, but if he's a pro, he can figure out how to rehab.

[texaspackerbacker]

Uh, Craig, if the O Linemen are racing down field, aren't they less likely to hold out rushers for extra time? You're not gonna know in advance whether or not the other team has a return set up, so you have to prepare for the rush.

Are you sure about no "ineligible player downfield" penalty in college? I'm not sure, but I think you might be wrong about that.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Uh, Craig, if the O Linemen are racing down field, aren't they less likely to hold out rushers for extra time? You're not gonna know in advance whether or not the other team has a return set up, so you have to prepare for the rush.

Are you sure about no "ineligible player downfield" penalty in college? I'm not sure, but I think you might be wrong about that.
It's in the college rules, it's pretty well known. Players can leave right away.

[vince]

Yeah the running around style allows the coverage team to get downfield to cover in the college game but doesn't give the same advantage in the NFL. But the punting game has evolved - in fact is being transformed - from rugby/Australian Rules concepts...

Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery (http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/191948/sam-koch-has-changed-the-punting-game-and-almost-no-one-noticed)


The effect was immediate and, without exaggeration, has turned punting strategy in the NFL upside down. Yet almost no one has noticed.


That success sparked further attempts to devise unpredictable punts. One year later, Koch has roughly 10 distinctly different kicks in what the Ravens refer to as his "golf bag."


The innovation has vaulted Koch to the top of the NFL's most credible punting statistics, including net yardage (44.41 this season) and Expected Points Added (0.42 per punt), but in a reflection of how few people understand punting, he has trailed in Pro Bowl fan balloting all season.


You could count the visible modernizations on one hand. Coaches have pushed many punters to kick directionally, rather than simply booming it high and far. Rugby-style backward rotation has proliferated, and a few punters have experimented with kicks that knuckle.


"You try to get a read off where the punter's head is facing," Brown said. "However, when you have a guy who can point his head one way, and punt it the other way, that's a great skill."


"My first eight years in the league were all just trying to get the ball as high as you can, as far as you can, get it to be as pretty as you can, and get it over to the sidelines. When you think about what we've done, you wonder, 'Why didn't anyone try this earlier? Why would you want to punt it to the returner if you didn't have to?'"


Hook punt

One of two styles that Koch kicks with the "torque" technique. It can go toward the right or left sideline, is designed to go 43-47 gross yards and post a hang time between 4.5-4.7 seconds. If a returner does catch up to it, the torque and force of the kick makes it difficult to catch. It will fade back into the field and ultimately drop in the shape of an S.


Liner punt

These also use the "torque" technique and can go right or left, but they are designed to go longer with a lower trajectory. They average between 47-50 gross yards with a hang time between 3.6-3.7 seconds. They are so low that often, when watching them from a wide view, the ball doesn't leave the screen. "The objective," Koch said, "is to keep it low, get it on the ground and get the coverage there before the returners can catch up."


Knuckler

While many punters have a knuckler, Koch brings a more severe effect to his in context with the rest of his array. Rather than point toward the sideline, Koch has a "middle knuckler" punt that invites a returner to field it. "The objective here," Koch said, "is to try to get a turnover by trying to get him to catch the ball. It doesn't have to be far. As it comes down, it moves. You'll see some guys try to catch it, and some guys run away from it."


Boomerang

This punt was under development during our early December visit to the Ravens' facility, but Koch broke it out during the Week 13 game against the Dolphins. "Depending on the wind," Koch said, "it will look like it's going straight at the returner, but then it'll boomerang and slowly start running away from him."


And there have been the beginnings of copycat simulations. Rams punter Johnny Hekker has attempted a few, as has the Denver Broncos' Britton Colquitt. According to the Steelers' Brown, however, no one has pulled off a deception the way Koch originally did last season.


Said Rosburg: "If they could do it the same way, they would be doing it now. It's not easy. As you get down the road, there will be more experimentation and you'll see more of it. But he's blazing a trail here. What he is doing, nobody else is doing it. They would if they could. They'll catch up eventually, but I don't think most players or coaches are real excited to put something out that hasn't been tested. They want to know before they use it, which I totally understand."


"He is really going to have an influence as you see other guys try his stuff," Locke said. "To be honest, most guys wouldn't even have thought about doing the stuff he's done already. You've seen a little bit here or there. But this has really all come from Sam and it's come fast.

"I think we'll look back at this and say, 'Sam Koch changed the punting game.' I really do. That's how incredible this has been in our world."

[vince]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZYO0FbZ_A

[Fritz]

I've always held that punters are a much more important component of a team's success than most people think. On a single play, and single-handedly (or single-footedly), a punter can cost a team twenty or thirty yards or gain his team twenty or thirty yards. If it's a game of field position, who has more control over that than your punter? On a punt, the center has to make a good snap, but the blockers have to hold the line for only a few seconds. The rest is on the punter. On a regular play from scrimmage, the blockers have to try to create specific holes for runners, or get downfield - a runner's success is much more dependent upon them. A quarterback can be brilliant and thread the needle, but he relies on his receiver to make the catch. The receiver relies on the QB to make a good throw. But if a punter gets a standard couple of seconds, it's all him.

So I like this Ravens' punter, and the fact that somebody in Baltimore understands the importance of the kicking game. Imagine how forward-thinking it is to try to use a punt as a way to generate a turnover. That's smart. Or that you could line-drive one past the returner so your guys can chase it down and down it sixty or seventy yards downfield.

[mraynrand]

The innovation has vaulted Koch to the top of the NFL's most credible punting statistics, including net yardage (44.41 this season) and Expected Points Added (0.42 per punt), but in a reflection of how few people understand punting, he has trailed in Pro Bowl fan balloting all season.

I generally like stats, but the relatively new trend of "deep stats" in the NFL leaves me cold. Expected points added. Sheesh. If I wanted crap like this I'd tailgate in front of H&R Block and cheer them filling out a 1040.

[pbmax]

I generally like stats, but the relatively new trend of "deep stats" in the NFL leaves me cold. Expected points added. Sheesh. If I wanted crap like this I'd tailgate in front of H&R Block and cheer them filling out a 1040.

I understand, but that particular one is pretty straightforward. If he is on your roster, he literally adds .42 points per game to the team's net points. So you can rank it and also use it to understand the specific level of strength (or weakness) of that unit.

[KYPack]

Sam Koch is the modern day Ray Guy. The guy is a weapon.

The modern day ST coach wants his punter to have a quick, two step approach and quick it to the coverage area. That's why Jon Ryan stopped getting his mail in DePere. Our shitty ST coach insisted on both factors. Ryan would revert to a 3 step approach and boom 60 - 70 yarders, well outside "the zone". So they cut him and brought in a mediocre, but order-following kicker.

Soon, both of 'em, the punter and the coach were outta town.

[smuggler]

That metric is .42 points per play, pbmax. If he's your punter you save 4.2 points over 10 punts compared to a bargain punter.

[pbmax]

That metric is .42 points per play, pbmax. If he's your punter you save 4.2 points over 10 punts compared to a bargain punter.

Good read. I am used to seeing the EPA for games, not plays.

[bobblehead]

Against both Dallas and Atlanta in the playoffs he averaged 54 yards per punt. I thought he got off to a bad start last year but then really turned it around.

Lord knows his leg was loose in that Atlanta game.

[bobblehead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZYO0FbZ_A

First off....4 BLATANT holds on that safety in the superbowl. I hate SF with a passion, but man the refs jobbed them. And as glad as I am that Kap got cheap shotted right by his endzone, it was a fine and a suspension all season long...but not a penalty in the big game.

As far as the rest goes. MM will employ a punter like this around 2022, after 29 other coaches come around.

[bobblehead]

Sam Koch is the modern day Ray Guy. The guy is a weapon.

The modern day ST coach wants his punter to have a quick, two step approach and quick it to the coverage area. That's why Jon Ryan stopped getting his mail in DePere. Our shitty ST coach insisted on both factors. Ryan would revert to a 3 step approach and boom 60 - 70 yarders, well outside "the zone". So they cut him and brought in a mediocre, but order-following kicker.

Soon, both of 'em, the punter and the coach were outta town.

Yea, sorta like the hitter that loves to swing at the 3-0 pitch and has a .486 avg against it with great peripherals and the coach benches him because that is a "take" count.