Kaepernick unemployment

[Guiness]

PFT's been beating the drum that Kaepernick is being mistreated, and I have to agree with a lot of what I read there. I tend to think the way he is being treated has nothing at all to do with what happens on the field. How does this guy not even get a camp invitation?

Wasn't that long ago that he faced Rodgers on the field and, well, did pretty damn well! I sure wouldn't mind it if the Pack brought him in.

[Joemailman]

My guess is teams don't want the distraction that goes with having Kaepernick in your locker room, especially this time of year. I also think owners are sending a message to all the players in the league to not do what Kaepernick did. Right now teams would rather develop the QB's they have rather than bring in Kaepernick. That could change if some teams lose QB's to injury.

[Zool]

I think it's partly the hassle he generates and partly his play on the field. If Tom Brady started kneeling during the anthem and was then a free agent, you bet your ass someone would sign him the first second they could.

[Cleft Crusty]

Our young, hirsute athlete, who is ostensibly a QB, is the perfect union of the worst qualities of Tim Tebow and Michael Sam: he simultaneously lacks even basic NFL competency while having the highest levels of political and social toxicity. He's like the Iron Sheik of All Star Wrestling fame, but without any of the charisma, humor, or irony. It's all deadly serious for Mr. Kaepernick and his fellow travelers, and the NFL (coaches, players, front offices, executives, ball inflaters), despite going through contortions to align itself with the popular culture, doesn't want anything to do with this emesis-inducing poison.

[Guiness]

See, I didn't think he played that badly last year (what little I saw). Simply having 4:1 or so TD to INT ratio on a team that was foiled by the Browns in their quest for the first overall pick tell you there is something there.

[Cleft Crusty]

See, I didn't think he played that badly last year (what little I saw).


You didn't see enough. I did, and often I had to look away. As Mr. Kurtz might say: The horror, the horror!

[Guiness]

You didn't see enough. I did, and often I had to look away. As Mr. Kurtz might say: The horror, the horror!

If these sort of things cause you pain and heart palpitations, I suggest you avoid watching the Jets and likely the Jaguars this coming year. I'd hazard a guess the NFC is mostly safe however.

[Cleft Crusty]

If these sort of things cause you pain and heart palpitations, I suggest you avoid watching the Jets and likely the Jaguars this coming year. I'd hazard a guess the NFC is mostly safe however.

Jets and Jaguars only induce a slightly dyspeptic reaction. The Browns are like a rotavirus.

[gbgary]

his average ability is out-weighed by questions about his desire, focus, and the chaos and noise that follows him. someone will come calling when they're totally desperate for a qb.

[pbmax]

He is not a terrible QB. His numbers inside and outside the pocket last year were better than some starting QBs and better than almost all backup candidates.

And he was functioning in his first year of Chip Kelly's non-NFL offense with junk around him. He was Captain Checkdown last year though and that did help with the 16/4 TD to INT ratio.

Essentially, CK is proof that winning is not the only thing, as teams would rather be worse at backup (or starter) than sign him.

Its also coaches who would rather groom Graham Harrell to run their offense from the pocket that do something with better results. If you are going to get fired, get fired running your offense.

[MadScientist]

His numbers suggest he could be a useful backup, but his style is such that the offense would have to be tailored to him, and teams don't usually have the time to create two separate offenses. Because of his style of play and inconsistent results, he also doesn't fit the 'vet who could mentor a rookie' mold. If Seattle needed a backup, he would be a decent fit, and kneeling during the anthem is not likely to cause a big stir in Seattle, as it might in say Dallas (which is otherwise unconcerned with distractions).

[Smidgeon]

Eh. I don't care that he's out of the league. In the Bay Area I had to deal with so many people telling me Crappernick was so much better than Rodgers because of 579!!! somethingorother. I always told them to come back to me in three years when the 9ers would be irrelevant. Now that I can crow, they don't care because they're all basketball fans now.

He runs too hot and cold for an NFL team to make him a starter. Then he has other issues too, so yeah. Don't see him doing much more.

EDIT: This might be the most juvenile post I've ever made here. I guess living in the Bay Area, I had my fill of his Godhood and Ascendancy.

[QBME]

You didn't see enough. I did, and often I had to look away. As Mr. Kurtz might say: The horror, the horror!

It's Colonel Kurtz, respectfully.

[Cleft Crusty]

It's Colonel Kurtz, respectfully.

He didn't go to evil military academy for six years to be called 'mister'

[QBME]

His numbers suggest he could be a useful backup, but his style is such that the offense would have to be tailored to him, and teams don't usually have the time to create two separate offenses. Because of his style of play and inconsistent results, he also doesn't fit the 'vet who could mentor a rookie' mold. If Seattle needed a backup, he would be a decent fit, and kneeling during the anthem is not likely to cause a big stir in Seattle, as it might in say Dallas (which is otherwise unconcerned with distractions).

Good summation, I believe it's pretty much the case once the histrionics are removed.

[QBME]

He didn't go to evil military academy for six years to be called 'mister'

Zactly. And considering he entered Rangers school at 40, cat was a bad ass. A touch touched, but still effective at what he did.

[Cheesehead Craig]

How is this possible? Tank said that Kaepernick was a stud... I mean he couldn't have been wrong, could he?

[KYPack]

How is this possible? Tank said that Kaepernick was a stud... I mean he couldn't have been wrong, could he?

Yep.

The guy had me scratching my head for a bit. The guy had (has) a live arm. But it was all off that read option shit. When a big part of the offense is based on the QB running, all NFL D's will beat the dog shit out of the passer. Kap (in Tank speak) is a big thing in the open field. But you contain him in the pocket, he is mediocre. Kaepernick , RGIII, Tebow, & the other guys that lived off read option all died a pretty quick death.

Russel Wilson started out in similar vein, but soon learned he had to be an effective pocket passer to survive in the NFL. Russ did it and is still an good player. The others are all looking for a home.

[pbmax]

We need to consider the other contenders. Someone drafted Christian Hackenberg in the second round and today he was intercepted twice and had five other passs dropped by the defense in a 7 on 7 drill.

He also hit reporters on the sideline twice. And he is qualified to be a backup.

The only thing he is good at standing in the pocket and being tall.

Kaepernick is a market inefficiency. I am stunned he isn't in New England, who employed Doug Flutie.

[pbmax]

Josh McCown—who was somehow WORSE statistically for Cleveland last year than Austin Davis was the year prior—is currently entrenched as the Jets’ starting quarterback.

And Austin Davis is backing up in Seattle, despite being objectively terrible.

And this from Bill Bardwell, addressing Andy Benoit and those who claim its the pocket passing that they cannot do without.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBv2cZkUQAA7aUF.jpg:large

[Bretsky]

he's not good enough for the headache...aka....pain in the ass
He brought this on himself. Now he lives with the distraction

[texaspackerbacker]

Kaepernick may be an all out piece of crap, but if I was a Seattle fan, I'd be ranting loud and long in their forum about choosing Austin Johnson over him. The guy was a positive factor for the Niners in his first year or two just as a part time mostly running QB. At very least, he could do that for a team. The burst he showed many times against the Packers especially was impressive and unique even among running QBs. For a team like the Seahawks, using a roughly similar QB like Wilson, he seems like a natural back up.

[KYPack]

he's not good enough for the headache...aka....pain in the ass
He brought this on himself. Now he lives with the distraction

Amen, Bro.

On PB's list, I'd snarf up AJ McCarron. With time in a copasetic system, I think he'll be fine.

[Upnorth]

I don't think Kap is the worst qb, but in terms of production to expected contract he may be. We don't know his contract expectations. He will be hired after the first big injury

[George Cumby]

If I cared enough, I'd go dig up that old thread about how Kaepernick and Wilson were the new wave and the pocket QB was dead. But I don't other than to say, "I told you so!"

[Cleft Crusty]

Osweiler and Kaepernick are separated by 8.7 passer rating points, yet Brock was so horrible that Houston has to include a second rounder to give his contract to Cleveland of all teams. The lesson is that QB ratings can be misleading. You watch Kaepernick play live and he's worse than Osweiler. The lack of consistent accuracy last season was astonishing. Really, Clefty hasn't seen swing and misses that terrible since my son-in-law tried to deck me after I called him a wuss for crying when I ran him over in a game of pickup basketball.

Who knows what the future holds? Kaepernick could get a crewcut, salute the flag, throw a thousand passes through a tire swing, and find a team that needs him. America is a land of second chances. Unless you tweet about tentacles.

[pbmax]

Osweiler and Kaepernick are separated by 8.7 passer rating points, yet Brock was so horrible that Houston has to include a second rounder to give his contract to Cleveland of all teams. The lesson is that QB ratings can be misleading. You watch Kaepernick play live and he's worse than Osweiler. The lack of consistent accuracy last season was astonishing. Really, Clefty hasn't seen swing and misses that terrible since my son-in-law tried to deck me after I called him a wuss for crying when I ran him over in a game of pickup basketball.

Who knows what the future holds? Kaepernick could get a crewcut, salute the flag, throw a thousand passes through a tire swing, and find a team that needs him. America is a land of second chances. Unless you tweet about tentacles.

Osweiler has never been better than he showed. He was hand selected to start in an established offense with some talent by an established coach. He was also traded because his contract was a talisman of incompetence. Chicago might have had the same experience next offseason, but they drafted a savior behind him.

Kaeppernick was in year 1 of non-NFL Chip Kelly's regime with a dearth of talent. And he out played him. Passer rating or DVOA or ESPN QB index or eyeballs, he was better. In the pocket, he was better. Outside the pocket, forget it.

Market failure. Someone above wrote he will be brought in by someone who loses the established starter. This is probably correct by now. Because he is the only body out there who could actually help you win a game. Its just that no one wants to admit their backup is just window dressing.

Does he have touch? No. He lacks several throws he needs in a traditional offense. You will need to adjust the offense. But that is almost always better than fitting square pegs into round holes. The talent will show through if you let it. Your scheme is not so precious, nor the only way to skin that cat, that it makes it worthwhile to hold on to Hackenburg, McCown or Davis.

Even Matt Flynn struggled to go .500 while keeping M3's offense intact.

Teams cannot afford to get cute with a starting QB. They are happy to get cute in the offseason with a backup QB.

[Cleft Crusty]

Passer rating or DVOA or ESPN QB index or eyeballs, he was better.

Maybe all that alphabet soup means something to you whippersnappers, but Clefty used his eyeballs. How many games did you actually watch? Then again, with cataracts and macular degeneration, I may have been watching Dancing with the Stars, and didn't know it.

[pbmax]

I saw parts of both Seahawks games (the first of which was Gabbert I believe) and some of the Patriots and Cardinals games.

[Tony Oday]

I would stop watching Packer Games if we signed this piece of race baiting shit. Screw him and his voiding of a contract that paid him $16.9 million this year. I hope he never plays again, cries about it being unfair and goes rich people broke and has to love a normal persons life.

[Cleft Crusty]

I would stop watching Packer Games if we signed this piece of race baiting shit. Screw him and his voiding of a contract that paid him $16.9 million this year. I hope he never plays again, cries about it being unfair and goes rich people broke and has to love a normal persons life.

Well, here's one spot where the rubber meets the road. I think Kaepernick's jersey made the NFL and their apparel providers a lot of money last year. The Jersey was in such high demand that the Smithsonian had to pay top dollar to acquire one for their museum. Details from the article posted below chart the 'rehabilitation' of Kaepernick's reputation. It doesn't mention anything about tire swings and reps, but Kaepernick's social media feed routinely updates anyone who wants to know on the distribution and repetitions of his various core exercises. Clefty predicts he will play again in the NFL, and probably play reasonably well.

http://mashup.weei.com/sports/2017/05/22/colin-kaepernick-jersey-smithsonian

[Tony Oday]

I will not watch a game if he is involved. I will not renew my NFL Ticket if he is a Packer. I would not pay for tickets or a new jersey this year.

[Freak Out]

Well you better do it now because there are more players in the NFL who feel the same way he does. People will always have opinions you don't agree with. Tear that shit up now!

[Tony Oday]

Well you better do it now because there are more players in the NFL who feel the same way he does. People will always have opinions you don't agree with. Tear that shit up now!

If the trend continues I will.

[Rutnstrut]

How in the hell can anyone think he is being mistreated? It's fine for teams to pass on other players that would be a locker room distraction, but not this POS? He's getting what he deserves. He made a grown up decision, now he has to live with it.

[Freak Out]

How in the hell can anyone think he is being mistreated? It's fine for teams to pass on other players that would be a locker room distraction, but not this POS? He's getting what he deserves. He made a grown up decision, now he has to live with it.

If he was the second coming of Jim Brown would you sign him?

[Cleft Crusty]

The common practice has been that if you are a great player, you will play, unless you are behind bars. Society is careening along a new path right now, and it's possible in the not too far future that you'll see players who run afoul of popular opinion getting tossed in response to advertiser boycotts.

[Joemailman]

How in the hell can anyone think he is being mistreated? It's fine for teams to pass on other players that would be a locker room distraction, but not this POS? He's getting what he deserves. He made a grown up decision, now he has to live with it.


If he was the second coming of Jim Brown would you sign him?

Rut wouldn't sign him because he'd figure McCarthy wouldn't give him many carries anyway.

[MadScientist]

How in the hell can anyone think he is being mistreated? It's fine for teams to pass on other players that would be a locker room distraction, but not this POS? He's getting what he deserves. He made a grown up decision, now he has to live with it.
Dog killer Vick got another chance. Kid beater Peterson got another chance. Women beaters Joe Mixon and Caleb Brantley were drafted this year.

Kneeling during the national anthem doesn't even come close to those. It doesn't hurt anybody or any thing. Teams that would be bettered by his talent on the roster should try to sign him.

[Tony Oday]

Teams would have a backup that is in the spotlight and a sideshow. He is shit.

[vince]

It's not just the business and politics which I understand but don't concern me too much. He's talented but clearly a head case. He's had some strings of seriously poor play on top of his diva needs. You almost have to tailor the whole offense for him which is problematic. Too much risk for the reward at this point. Maybe some team gets desperate enough to take the risk but they'll not be happy about it.

[vince]

If not for Green Bay, he'd have been done already.

[Rutnstrut]

I don't think he was all that great when he was "good". I just think GB's shitty defense made him look all world.

[pbmax]

If not for Green Bay, he'd have been done already.

He took an offense to a Super Bowl and nearly won. Makes him at least Trent Dilfer who lasted for years, even though Dilfer's skill set was problematic. He stood in the pocket, was functionally mobile, but was inaccurate and made bad reads.

[gbgary]

the nfl hadn't seen the read option and didn't have an answer for it. it's in the surprise/trick play category now. it's been caught up to. mm/rodgers have even used it now and then with success.

[vince]

He took an offense to a Super Bowl and nearly won. Makes him at least Trent Dilfer who lasted for years, even though Dilfer's skill set was problematic. He stood in the pocket, was functionally mobile, but was inaccurate and made bad reads.
I'd say he hasn't handled success very well since...

[wist43]

If not for Green Bay, he'd have been done already.


I don't think he was all that great when he was "good". I just think GB's shitty defense made him look all world.

Another way of saying that is...

'If not for Dom Capers...'

[pbmax]

the nfl hadn't seen the read option and didn't have an answer for it. it's in the surprise/trick play category now. it's been caught up to. mm/rodgers have even used it now and then with success.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB9mK5FVoAAnW3D.jpg:large

via Pro Football Focus

"But he won't stay in the pocket and run my offense..."

Good! Especially if you are Chip Kelly.

[Zool]

Rut wouldn't sign him because he'd figure McCarthy wouldn't give him many carries anyway.

:flm:

[falco]

Rut wouldn't sign him because he'd figure McCarthy wouldn't give him many carries anyway.

Hands down post of the year!

[Rutnstrut]

Rut wouldn't sign him because he'd figure McCarthy wouldn't give him many carries anyway.

Nah, there isn't room on the team for 2 wanna be RB converts.

[vince]

head case + not dedicated to football

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_VDp6WwAAFiZe.png

[mraynrand]

He just keeps on reinventing himself!

[pbmax]

head case + not dedicated to football

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_VDp6WwAAFiZe.png

He put a t-shirt on, took the hat off and grew out his hair. Clearly he is not NFL QB material.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c9/11/72/c9117255d7df543f752e569b9ac93e3b.jpg

No quarterback has ever succeeded with these kinda distractions!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BCWvH2ISyI

[pbmax]

And you can't be a minister and succeed in the NFL.

http://www.stripersonline.com/ubb547/image_uploads3/white4.jpg

http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/20130710__ethw0627thewell7.jpg?w=600

That's Napoleon Kaufman, btw.

[pbmax]

Is Kaepernick actually a youth minister or is that something Reddit came up with just for the viral image?

[mraynrand]

The stories of Kap's demise are highly exaggerated. He's a bright kid even if he lacks wisdom. He had two decent games to end the season last year. He'll land on his feet.

[mraynrand]

Money talks


He still has his fans, though: Among last month’s best-selling jerseys released by the NFL Shop, Kaepernick ranked 17th — ahead of quarterbacks Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Cam Newton and Drew Brees, all of whom have led their teams to recent Super Bowls.

At the peak of last fall’s controversy, Kaepernick had the best-selling 49ers jersey, and the fifth-best-selling jersey in the league.

He will return, in a new jersey, that will sell well.

[Teamcheez1]

Money talks



He will return, in a new jersey, that will sell well.

I would bet that most of the people buying Kap jerseys did not even know the shape of a football. His negatives are so high, nobody wants to take on the media storm and potential locker room disruption of a back-up QB. Plus, you would anger a lot of fans of most teams.

Whether I find his displays repugnant or not, I support his right to make his misguided expressions. I also support the right of any owner not to hire him.

[mraynrand]

I would bet that most of the people buying Kap jerseys did not even know the shape of a football. His negatives are so high, nobody wants to take on the media storm and potential locker room disruption of a back-up QB. Plus, you would anger a lot of fans of most teams.

Whether I find his displays repugnant or not, I support his right to make his misguided expressions. I also support the right of any owner not to hire him.

He's already said he won't kneel again; he's rehabilitated himself with donations and being nice to disadvantaged kids. Probably 50-70% of NFL players agree with him, as well as some coaches. He probably won't even need to talk to Dr. Phil to get back on a team. He'll just need to throw an accurate pass or two.

[call_me_ishmael]

He's clearly being blackballed and rightfully so. What rich, white business owner would want to be seen as aligning their franchise to this person who took some very public, very bold anti-American stances? The NFL knows who pays their bills, and it is some of the most patriotic, blue collar folks out there. It is well within the owners rights not to sign him so long as their isn't a league level collusion. I doubt there is.

No further discussion needed. He made his bed, now he's gotta lay in it. No denying he has talent, but he did something dumb and will pay for it.

[run pMc]

I don't know. He's been very upfront about his reasons, and I think blackballing him for it is pretty extreme.

http://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/11/12869726/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-seahawks-brandon-marshall-nfl


I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening.

I could see guys like Greg Hardy, Ray Rice, or AP not getting signed, and Vick getting back in the league had me gobsmacked. Protesting like this -- and others joined him, mind you -- isn't illegal. The concept of "blackballing" makes me instantly think of ol' Sen. McCarthy by the way.


That part of it aside, he has enough talent to at least be a backup or spot starter for a game or two. I don't know how invested he is in the game; I think he's more interested in social justice than football, and if your QB is your leader he has to be 100% committed.
He would also need a lot of QB development -- he's not done learning the position at the pro level, and may never learn it. He may not want to be a backup either...some guys still think they can/should be the starter. You'd think losing out to Blaine Gabbert would have changed that, however.

[pbmax]

I have a hard time with a guy who is expressing his opinion getting this treatment. Employers can do what they wish, its their business if they like to be worse off and claim a PR victory by avoiding talent. In this case its dumb, but its their choice. Same as Robert Kraft can avoid those with domestic assault charges, they can hire whom they wish.

Fans are another thing. The vets' sacrifice that the public is so eager throw in CK's face seem to have been made in order for people to be free enough to engage in exactly this kind of protest. There were more than a few vets speaking out for his right to protest when this broke last season.

I think its idiotic to make the Anthem or Pledge compulsory. The NBA's stance on this is problematic*. Mandatory standing at attention for either flies in the face of the very values those expressions are trying to celebrate.


*Anyone remember why they did it?

[Joemailman]

Teams have every right to not hire a player if they feel their off-field activities would have a detrimental effect on the team. This happens every year in the draft. Some teams take a player entirely off their draft board because of off-field activities.

It is worth pointing out though, that there is no television video of Kaepernick not standing that I have seen during the national anthem. That is because the networks habitually (except for some national telecasts) do not broadcast the playing of the national anthem so they can get in another beer commercial. Is the habit of the networks cutting away from the national anthem to make more advertising dollars any more disrespectful than what Kaepernick did? Should the NFL insist that the networks broadcast the national anthem?

[pbmax]

Its just me and Harbaugh.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/12/jim-harbaugh-reiterates-his-belief-colin-kaepernick-will-win-championships/

Gonna be very uncomfortable at the meeting.

[mraynrand]

Its just me and Harbaugh.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/12/jim-harbaugh-reiterates-his-belief-colin-kaepernick-will-win-championships/

Gonna be very uncomfortable at the meeting.

You think Kap will win championship(s)? Really? I suppose if he returns to a great situation. I do think he'll play again. There aren't 32 starting QBs in the NFL right now.

[pbmax]

You think Kap will win championship(s)? Really? I suppose if he returns to a great situation. I do think he'll play again. There aren't 32 starting QBs in the NFL right now.

Probably not. Harbaugh is still nuttier than I am.

[gbgary]

"But he won't stay in the pocket and run my offense..."

Good! Especially if you are Chip Kelly.

my comment was about the read-option scheme. he's got skills but as i mentioned before baggage/noise (and perhaps $) is keeping him out...for now. someone will get needy later.

[Patler]

This is not about an individual expressing his point of view, this is about an employee using his place of work as his podium to provide greater exposure for that expression. How many of us have worked for an employer that would allow that, especially when used in a blatant and unpopular manner?

I suspect that if he had expressed the same points on his own time in places away from the team, he might be unpopular with some fans, but the owners would not care all that much, because they are quite accustomed to dealing with players who have public image issues and/or are not well-liked among the general population or even their teammates.

I also would not be surprised if much of the current reluctance to hire him is of his own doing. He probably knows that he can get a cheap, short-term offer at just about anytime, so his demands might be pushing the limits on what teams are willing to pay for a player they view as a stopgap or backup who maybe still can resurrect a career as a starter. However, he might be one injury away from having a much higher value for one of those teams than he does right now, so why sign a "prove-it" contract now when he can always do it in a month or two?

If he really does still want to play (realistically, we do not know what his desire really is) I suspect he will sign somewhere by the time the start of the season rolls around. Even Packer fans would be much more accepting if the unthinkable were to happen in training camp.

[pbmax]

This is not about an individual expressing his point of view, this is about an employee using his place of work as his podium to provide greater exposure for that expression. How many of us have worked for an employer that would allow that, especially when used in a blatant and unpopular manner?

Maybe its different where you work, but we do not stand, pledge or sing at my place of business. We also don't sell tickets to the public to attend inside a city owned park.

When the team decides it wants to invite patriotic displays (whether its the Anthem, Kate Smith or generous donations from the DoD for flag unfurling and a color guard) into its event, the whole panoply of people's patriotic feelings and interpretation of duty comes into play.

Could they rule against such a display by their employee? Probably. I suspect it would withstand legal challenges and stand like the NBA's rule. But if they did, the patriotic display becomes quite hollow.

[Tony Oday]

In the end fuck this second rate QB and his anti cop, anti American stance.

[Patler]

When the team decides it wants to invite patriotic displays (whether its the Anthem, Kate Smith or generous donations from the DoD for flag unfurling and a color guard) into its event, the whole panoply of people's patriotic feelings and interpretation of duty comes into play.

Could they rule against such a display by their employee? Probably. I suspect it would withstand legal challenges and stand like the NBA's rule. But if they did, the patriotic display becomes quite hollow.

It's not about if they could prevent it or not; if it is illegal or not. The point is that he used that podium to express an opinion in an unpopular way. He used the owners' places of conducting their business, where and how their income is generated. Of course he will pay consequences for it.




Maybe its different where you work, but we do not stand, pledge or sing at my place of business. We also don't sell tickets to the public to attend inside a city owned park.


I see absolutely no relevance to whether tickets are sold, whether it is on public property or any of the issues such as standing or singing. In some people's mind the flag, national anthem, etc. are "special" as targets for protest; but really, they are not. What has been decided is these are not "special" items of protection against such protests.

[Upnorth]

I still think there is a big difference between what contract he has been offered and what contract he expects. Once a team is desperate then he will be signed

[swede]

Maybe its different where you work, but we do not stand, pledge or sing at my place of business.

Oh we stand, and we pledge, and we sing at my place of work. And any deviation from expected behaviors results in a loss of free agency on the playground.

[mraynrand]

we do not stand, pledge or sing at my place of business.

There is no joy in Mudville

[pbmax]

It's not about if they could prevent it or not; if it is illegal or not. The point is that he used that podium to express an opinion in an unpopular way. He used the owners' places of conducting their business, where and how their income is generated. Of course he will pay consequences for it.





I see absolutely no relevance to whether tickets are sold, whether it is on public property or any of the issues such as standing or singing. In some people's mind the flag, national anthem, etc. are "special" as targets for protest; but really, they are not. What has been decided is these are not "special" items of protection against such protests.

A public protest and advocacy are always seeking out the biggest possible venue. And when you invite patriotism into the stadium to help link your sport with goodwill toward armed services, you are going to get blowback in some form or fashion. Its inevitable and should be expected. Whether its a black armband, initials on cleats, a raised fist or boycott of an Olympics, resistance to the prevailing idea will intrude. Its part and parcel of political expression, which is what the displays are at the beginning of games. The anthem was not always played before games.

The owner can hire who they wish. But avoiding Kaepernick solely on this basis is objectively making some teams worse. There is a statistical case that Kaepernick is better than Blake Bortles, who starts for the Jags.

The risk is being overestimated.

[pbmax]

There is no joy in Mudville

No there is not. I work from home too much.

[mraynrand]

"I'll tell you what you better understand! Next time you see Old Glory riding up that pole, you better sing that anthem, darling! You're lucky you're a chick, or you'd be nothing but a stain on the road and a crewcut. Our founding fathers went to the mat for you, baby!"

https://www.nbc.com/sites/nbcunbc/files/files/images/2015/2/11/140207_2723847_The_Sinatra_Group_anvver_5.jpg

[pbmax]

I've got chunks of guys like you in my stool!

[hoosier]

Oh we stand, and we pledge, and we sing at my place of work. And any deviation from expected behaviors results in a loss of free agency on the playground.

I had a teacher like you in high school. He gave out A's to students who parroted his views about Vietnam (shoulda made a parkin lot out of it) and promised extra credit to girls who wore minis. Later on he was exposed as a pederastic pedophile.

[mraynrand]

I had a teacher like you in high school. He gave out A's to students who parroted his views about Vietnam (shoulda made a parkin lot out of it) and promised extra credit to girls who wore minis. Later on he was exposed as a pederastic pedophile.

Was that Mr. Hanrahan?

[mraynrand]

I had a teacher like you in high school. He gave out A's to students who parroted his views about Vietnam (shoulda made a parkin lot out of it)

This teacher just had the long view, kinda like Isaiah.

http://tuoitrenews.vn/society/40013/hanoi-ho-chi-minh-city-in-dire-need-of-parking-spaces

[hoosier]

Was that Mr. Hanrahan?

I'm pretty sure he was the descendant of pilgrims, not Irish. Though if Yeats had known my guy I am sure he would have made a character out of him.

Long view indeed, though he probably didn't need it: most of the girls sat in front.

[pbmax]

I had a teacher like you in high school. He gave out A's to students who parroted his views about Vietnam (shoulda made a parkin lot out of it) and promised extra credit to girls who wore minis. Later on he was exposed as a pederastic pedophile.

Holy crap. Was he charged and tried or just driven out of the job?

[KYPack]

I'm just happy you kids made it thru school & puberty & shit.

Kap?, I think he sits until the season starts. A few significant injuries, he signs with somebody.

I don't think the teams want to go thru the drama until they have to make a move.

[Fritz]

I'm pretty sure he was the descendant of pilgrims, not Irish. Though if Yeats had known my guy I am sure he would have made a character out of him.

Long view indeed, though he probably didn't need it: most of the girls sat in front.

At least those girls knew what it took to be successful.

[hoosier]

Holy crap. Was he charged and tried or just driven out of the job?

You mean for the pederasty? Nah, that came out after he retired. I don't think charges were ever brought, so maybe it never went beyond the realm of credible rumor.

[hoosier]

At least those girls knew what it took to be successful.

Yes, I never once heard anyone ask the guy what they had to do to get an A in his class.

[Fritz]

Merely wearing the right kind of clothing doesn't seem like too much to ask.

[hoosier]

Merely wearing the right kind of clothing doesn't seem like too much to ask.

There was also an unspoken assumption about where to sit. What good is a mini if a guy shaped like Spaulding is blocking the view?

[Tony Oday]

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/06/18/colin-kaepernick-police-fugitive-slave-patrols-philando-castile-verdict

And that why the second string weak armed out of shape former QB is not signed.

[gbgary]

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/images/smilies/Yawn.gif

[pbmax]

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/06/18/colin-kaepernick-police-fugitive-slave-patrols-philando-castile-verdict

And that why the second string weak armed out of shape former QB is not signed.

The language is over the top.

But I suspect if you read the transcript of the conversation between officer (the one that pulled the trigger) and Castile, you would likely be outraged as well.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/448740/philando-castile-verdict-was-miscarriage-justice

And Kaepernick might be many things, weak armed is not the problem.

[mraynrand]

The language is over the top.

But I suspect if you read the transcript of the conversation between officer (the one that pulled the trigger) and Castile, you would likely be outraged as well.

It's awful. But the Police officer was put on trial and acquitted by a jury of his peers. Even though some, maybe many, agree with him, many see the story being more complicated than the video/transcript. That Kap turned it into the extreme message that he did will hurt him.

[pbmax]

It's awful. But the Police officer was put on trial and acquitted by a jury of his peers. Even though some, maybe many, agree with him, many see the story being more complicated than the video/transcript. That Kap turned it into the extreme message that he did will hurt him.

He was also dismissed from the force. The fact that the second officer saw things differently paints the first guy in an unflattering light in my eyes. It seems like panic.

You cannot have concealed or open carry laws where the police force react to news about possession of a gun with panic. And I don't think this guy is an isolated case. Remember the officer (SC I think?) who both ordered a driver out of his car and then back in to retrieve identification? When the guy moved back towards the vehicle the officer forgot he was told the ID was in the car and shot him seven times.

Its ludicrous and its a death sentence being delivered by nervous people in a moment of high agitation.

[mraynrand]

I don't feel the need to argue the specific if the case to make the point that Kaps view is far too broad and far too extreme -at least to the point that it will make him more controversial and hurt his chances of getting hired.

Wanna talk police politics and BLM stuff? Start a thread in FYI.

[mraynrand]

PB: If Kap had written what you did above he'd be in better shape

[Tony Oday]

PB: If Kap had written what you did above he'd be in better shape

He can't do that because he is a race baiting fucktwat that I will NEVER watch on TV again.

[hoosier]

What the people reacting so vehemently against Kapernick don't seem to realize is that they are playing the exact same game. Kapernick at least has a good excuse: he's a professional entertainer. And that, and that alone, is why he could not have written what PB (who is no entertainer) wrote.

[mraynrand]

What the people reacting so vehemently against Kapernick don't seem to realize is that they are playing the exact same game. Kapernick at least has a good excuse: he's a professional entertainer. And that, and that alone, is why he could not have written what PB (who is no entertainer) wrote.

I'm guessing Tony Oday is not entertained
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/005/areyounotentertained.jpg


... PB (who is no entertainer) ...

PB, you gonna take that lying down? Hack Lives Matter.

[QBME]

I'm guessing Tony Oday is not entertained
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/005/areyounotentertained.jpg



PB, you gonna take that lying down? Hack Lives Matter.

Nice to have you back.

[pbmax]

What the people reacting so vehemently against Kapernick don't seem to realize is that they are playing the exact same game. Kapernick at least has a good excuse: he's a professional entertainer. And that, and that alone, is why he could not have written what PB (who is no entertainer) wrote.


I'm guessing Tony Oday is not entertained
http://i3.kymotentertained.jpg



PB, you gonna take that lying down? Hack Lives Matter.

I admit I am probably not good enough to be an entertainer. I hope to be funny once in a while.

But I don't think Kaepernick is trying to be an entertainer, I think he is trying to engage an audience that doesn't include most of this board or NFL fans in general. I lack the resources to know whether he is succeeding or not. There is a group of players who testified to Congress last year taking a much different approach. I doubt there is one way that is a slam dunk to progress.

[pbmax]

One reason ck is not aiming his commentary toward the middle is this kind of reasoning:

Grayson Murray‏ @GraysonMurray
These police shootings have got to stop. But, the way they will is stop being a threat to them. Obey by the law and I promise you will live.

This guy is completely in the dark about some of the shootings, but he thinks he sounds logical.

[Bretsky]

Sad state of GB when this thread still lives.

Kaperprick is a pain in the ass. He needs the right system to do well in. He can't make a lot of the throws many systems require. Maybe it's Seattle is Russ gets hurt. Reverse to Pain the Ass note; not worth bringing in as a backup

When a QB goes down hurt or a team becomes desperate he'll get his shot.

He decided to be the pain in the ass. I'd let the hereroid stay home.

[mraynrand]

One reason ck is not aiming his commentary toward the middle is this kind of reasoning:

Grayson Murray‏ @GraysonMurray
These police shootings have got to stop. But, the way they will is stop being a threat to them. Obey by the law and I promise you will live.

This guy is completely in the dark about some of the shootings, but he thinks he sounds logical.

FYI. I will talk to you there. Start a thread.

[hoosier]

I admit I am probably not good enough to be an entertainer. I hope to be funny once in a while.

But I don't think Kaepernick is trying to be an entertainer, I think he is trying to engage an audience that doesn't include most of this board or NFL fans in general. I lack the resources to know whether he is succeeding or not. There is a group of players who testified to Congress last year taking a much different approach. I doubt there is one way that is a slam dunk to progress.

I agree that his goal is probably not to entertain, but his style and methods are derived from the entertainment industry. Maybe I should add, I'm using entertainment in a fairly broad sense. His approach, which seems over the top to some, is designed to be inflammatory--not to inflame the Tony Odays but to stoke the passions of people who are inclined to see police violence as part of a societal problem.

[Tony Oday]

He is a piece of crys I find on my shoe. He is ignorant and undeserving of a chance to play for millions. I will boycott ANY game he is in, sidelines or playing. He has missed me off and I will use my free choice and my money to support my views not this cop hating shit bag.

[pbmax]

I agree that his goal is probably not to entertain, but his style and methods are derived from the entertainment industry. Maybe I should add, I'm using entertainment in a fairly broad sense. His approach, which seems over the top to some, is designed to be inflammatory--not to inflame the Tony Odays but to stoke the passions of people who are inclined to see police violence as part of a societal problem.

I agree.

[pbmax]

FYI. I will talk to you there. Start a thread.

I spend enough time on here as it is. :D

[bobblehead]

One reason ck is not aiming his commentary toward the middle is this kind of reasoning:

Grayson Murray‏ @GraysonMurray
These police shootings have got to stop. But, the way they will is stop being a threat to them. Obey by the law and I promise you will live.

This guy is completely in the dark about some of the shootings, but he thinks he sounds logical.

He is largely right. In nearly every police shooting I can tell you what the perp did wrong. Problem is that in several police shootings I can point out what the officer did wrong also. If you carry a gun you have a certain responsibility to know how to engage an officer if you have to interact. I'm not blind though. Law enforcement training is basically para military now. Kids come out with a soldiers mentality. They mentally engage citizens with the approach of "I'm the law and you must obey even the dumbest thing I say". And I've run into some pretty unreasonable officers in my day. Pricks with a badge applies. I would love to see POST training get an overhaul with respect being infused in there somewhere. I would also like to see some dumb ass guy in Minnesota with a gun inform the officer that he is carrying at some point BEFORE he reaches for his wallet. Arms outside the window (unlock your car door first). Inform the officer. If he asks you to get out of the car you open the door with the outside handle. Its not rocket science. The NRA runs hundreds, likely thousands, of classes a year. If you want to carry a gun, take the class.

[hoosier]

Bobble, you presume to know a lot of the details of what happened. What if he did tell the cop he had a gun before reaching for his wallet? What if the cop never asked him to step out of the car? What if he was surprised at getting pulled over and adrenaline got in the way of calm, cool reflecting before acting? What if he was stoned to the bejesus belt?

Interesting that you refer to victims of police shootings collectively as "perps."

[yetisnowman]

It's all on video, I'm not sure why the need to speculate. Castille was calm and polite and explained that he had a firearm and he was not reaching for it. If you watch the video and can't determine that it was a heinous overreaction by the cop, you can't be helped. Shooting someone should be a last resort. There truly was no reason to assume the cop was in immediate danger. It's not logical that a guy would tell a cop he has a firearm, tell him multiple times that he was not reaching for it, just to trick the cop and shoot him while in the car with his girlfriend and 3 year old child. Cop should have absolutely gotten manslaughter.

[bobblehead]

Bobble, you presume to know a lot of the details of what happened. What if he did tell the cop he had a gun before reaching for his wallet? What if the cop never asked him to step out of the car? What if he was surprised at getting pulled over and adrenaline got in the way of calm, cool reflecting before acting? What if he was stoned to the bejesus belt?

Interesting that you refer to victims of police shootings collectively as "perps."

Watch the dashcam video. Its been released. And all these details have been out for quite awhile. As for the rest...again, that is why you take the class and go over the proper steps. So that when it happens you don't make big mistakes. Don't misunderstand me though. That cop was WAY too quick to fire shots. The man just politely said "officer, I have to inform you I have a concealed weapon on me" Not the action of a man about to shoot you. Also he had kids in the car. How about a well trained officer retreats to behind the car...a position that someone in a drivers seat can't really shoot at you. And then tell him to exit the vehicle, hands in sight. Again, big mistakes on both parts. That officer should never carry a gun again.

As for me referring to them as perps, its not that interesting at all. Its not even relevant to the post other than what you want to divine across the internet of what you think you know about me. They are many things, I chose a term. Many are perps. Some are victims. Many are simply people who are on the wrong side of an unfortunate incident. I used the term "perp" because in 95%+ of police shootings the person who gets shot is in fact a perp. I guess I could have gone all PC and used the term to describe the other 5% but that would just be stupid.

Don't be blinded by your biased conclusions about me. You read a post by me where I say "Hillary is a crook, but Trump is an ass" and all you read is "Hillary is a crook". It shows YOUR bias, not mine.

[bobblehead]

. double post

[bobblehead]

It's all on video, I'm not sure why the need to speculate. Castille was calm and polite and explained that he had a firearm and he was not reaching for it. If you watch the video and can't determine that it was a heinous overreaction by the cop, you can't be helped. Shooting someone should be a last resort. There truly was no reason to assume the cop was in immediate danger. It's not logical that a guy would tell a cop he has a firearm, tell him multiple times that he was not reaching for it, just to trick the cop and shoot him while in the car with his girlfriend and 3 year old child. Cop should have absolutely gotten manslaughter.

Partly agree except for one thing. He informs the officer he is packing and almost immediately reaches for his wallet. He never offers his hands when he says it. Stupid. I can agree 100% that the officer way over reacted. The problem is that we can't see inside the car and again, Castille NEVER offered his hands out the window which is what EVERY instructor tells you to do when stopped while packing. Big mistakes on both ends. 2nd degree manslaughter....probably, but I didn't see the entire trial. To say there was NO reason to assume the cop was in immediate danger is an overstatement as well. Again, you can't see inside the car. You can't see Castille's hands. But we KNOW he had a gun.

And just like Hoosier, you saying "you can't be helped" is reading an awful lot into what I DIDN'T type. I clearly criticized law enforcement and their over reactions in that post. But you only read what you wanted to read so you could criticize me for not being as smart as you. Castille fucked up big time by waiting that long to inform the officer he was packing. That was my point. I never said the officer didn't over react. You read that into my post based on YOUR preconceived bias, not mine.

[hoosier]

You began by focusing on what you surmise where the errors committed by the victim, and you refer to him as a perpetrator. It is not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that you hold Castille primarily responsible for his own fate.

[yetisnowman]

Partly agree except for one thing. He informs the officer he is packing and almost immediately reaches for his wallet. He never offers his hands when he says it. Stupid. I can agree 100% that the officer way over reacted. The problem is that we can't see inside the car and again, Castille NEVER offered his hands out the window which is what EVERY instructor tells you to do when stopped while packing. Big mistakes on both ends. 2nd degree manslaughter....probably, but I didn't see the entire trial. To say there was NO reason to assume the cop was in immediate danger is an overstatement as well. Again, you can't see inside the car. You can't see Castille's hands. But we KNOW he had a gun.

And just like Hoosier, you saying "you can't be helped" is reading an awful lot into what I DIDN'T type. I clearly criticized law enforcement and their over reactions in that post. But you only read what you wanted to read so you could criticize me for not being as smart as you. Castille fucked up big time by waiting that long to inform the officer he was packing. That was my point. I never said the officer didn't over react. You read that into my post based on YOUR preconceived bias, not mine.

My comments weren't specifically addressing your points or your bias only. Sorry if that was confusing. I will point out that Castilles mistakes were minimal compared to officers. I just can't figure out how a jury could conclude that the officer thought his life was in danger after watching the video. Observe everyone else in the videos demeanor, Castille and his family and even the other officer. Cops basically have a free pass to kill first and ask questions later. And that's just not right.

[Zool]

My comments weren't specifically addressing your points or your bias only. Sorry if that was confusing. I will point out that Castilles mistakes were minimal compared to officers. I just can't figure out how a jury could conclude that the officer thought his life was in danger after watching the video. Observe everyone else in the videos demeanor, Castille and his family and even the other officer. Cops basically have a free pass to kill first and ask questions later. And that's just not right.

Bill Cosby had a hung jury. Literally anything is possible.

[mraynrand]

What percent of police interactions do you guys follow. People argue from these highly charged ideologically motivated cases to generalities about police encounters. I notice that Dash cam video of successful and helpful police interactions are underepresented on US TV. Or the cases where cops are getting assaulted.

Doesn't mean this wasn't a bad encounter and that the cop needs to go (he has been or will be fired). Just because he may be a marginal cop doesn't mean that he should be punished to the level of manslaughter.

This stuff is all split second and many times the opposite happens where cops get drawn on even while they are talking and police instructuons are seemingly being followed

When a cop stops someone he has to treat him like a perp and cops do pay attention to demography. Men are vastly more likely to draw a gun on a cop than women for example.

Again the problem for Kap is he is taking the most extreme stance. All cops are bad, embracing BLM racism, etcetc. because there's no moderating tone there he will suffer.

[yetisnowman]

Having a tail light out while being a black man shouldn't give the cops the right to assume he is likely a violent perpetrator. I mean seriously how often has a man been pulled over for a traffic violation ONLY, and ended up murdering the cop? Let alone after calmly and politely telling the officer he had a legal firearm and with his family in the car. Cops have plenty of respectable interactions in similar situations, without being the agitator, aggressor, and unloading seven rounds into another human. The cop had zero reason to be afraid for his life, so non premeditated murder that isn't self-defense = manslaughter.

[yetisnowman]

And I agree Kap' s stance is too extreme.

[pbmax]

I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

*If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.

[bobblehead]

You began by focusing on what you surmise where the errors committed by the victim, and you refer to him as a perpetrator. It is not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that you hold Castille primarily responsible for his own fate.
I said:

"He is largely right. In nearly every police shooting I can tell you what the perp did wrong. Problem is that in several police shootings I can point out what the officer did wrong also."

And I referred to Castille as a dumb ass, not a perp. Perp was the general term I used for people shot by cops. I specifically didn't refer to him as a perp because he wasn't one.

I focused on this one instance because Castille did about everything wrong you could do. I still think the officer over reacted...a lot. But I would like to have been on the jury to see everything. I'm not sure I would have convicted him, but I might have.

I also focused on him because it was the case that hit the news most recently, and I would like to raise awareness about how NOT to get shot if you are pulled over while carrying. I try to be a very responsible gun owner. Everyone should.

Now, if you want me to take the side of an officer I can. In milwaukee a PERP throws a gun as he is shot in the bicep. 1.69 seconds later he is shot in the chest and killed. The DA charged the officer with 1st degree reckless homicide. Holy shit, who would ever want to be a cop...not me.

[bobblehead]

Having a tail light out while being a black man shouldn't give the cops the right to assume he is likely a violent perpetrator. I mean seriously how often has a man been pulled over for a traffic violation ONLY, and ended up murdering the cop? Let alone after calmly and politely telling the officer he had a legal firearm and with his family in the car. Cops have plenty of respectable interactions in similar situations, without being the agitator, aggressor, and unloading seven rounds into another human. The cop had zero reason to be afraid for his life, so non premeditated murder that isn't self-defense = manslaughter.


I can disagree about being pulled over for the tail light. I have been pulled over for that. Its their job. The rest has to do with the way they train cops. Some intelligent people can overcome the "us vs. them" training. Consider every citizen a possible murderer. Be 100% vigilant all the time. They call the training para military, but the problem is that officers aren't at war, they are dealing with citizens.

It does NOT equal manslaughter though. Police are put in these situation. Given society the way its been an office has EVERY reason to be afraid for his life in ANY traffic stop. Thats why they can't be charged with manslaughter (realistically) but only reckless homicide as long as it was in the line of duty. First mistake the DA made was overcharging and not offering the alternative.

There is a line between where you are and where their training lies. Be vigilant, but use your damn noodle.

[bobblehead]

I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

*If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.

Good post except for your very first point. If this officer had had his routine interactions reviewed much more vigorously by his superiors someone might have figured out he doesn't handle things well long before someone died. OR maybe not. What makes it so tough to convict a cop is that he is in these situations all the time. He might get 999 of them right, but than that one night his eyes and brain missed a beat and someone bringing his hands up into sight appears to be someone coming up with a weapon and in that instance you make a lethal error. Murder? Manslaughter? If we hold the police to such a standard that their one mistake lands them in prison, no one ever wants to be a cop.

[hoosier]

Bobble, I'm inclined to agree that a large part of the problem is that police are trained to see themselves as warriors. Community policing and deescalation need to be emphasized more. That's a failure in leadership and education, but I suspect there is also a deeper societal issue here because ultimately police forces are not purely autonomous institutions, they are instruments that serve power interests.

You seem to be contradicting yourself about what makes it hard to convict cops. Or maybe not, maybe the average jurist really does end up concluding that they're not in a position to second guess the people who are out in the streets. If that is the case then they should never have been chosen as jurists.

[mraynrand]

I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

*If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.

It seems to me you are confusing points. First is Kap: is his view legitimate or not? I argue it is not because it is a blanket treatment of cops as bad. This is not shocking; he is not alone in this view - saw very similar views just today in my liberal community arguing that police should not be called for altercations because they just shoot all blacks dead. That's what they do because they are racists. So is his reaction appropriate? Is this general reaction to police appropriate? Is Kap reacting in the right way? Well, considering people in the NFL want nothing to do with him suggests that he's reacting in an inflammatory way. Kap's reaction is the main issue, because as I said, police encounters happen by the hundreds of thousands and Kap is making like these highly charged and publicized cases that show police in a bad light are the norm, and are certainly due to the pervasive racism of police. A lot of people don't agree with him, even those who strongly believe there is a problem.

Second is whether the cop is a murderer or manslaughter. Possibly, but the jury didn't agree. More likely, as you point out, he's a poor police officer, who doesn't have a good sense of whether a situation is escalating to a confrontation with a 'suspect' or is just a situation with a guy who is high and impaired, has a gun, but is not a threat. The police force will determine that. I hope they have enough motivation to remove a bad officer over protecting 'one of their own.' If scrutiny could do anything it might make police more carful about techniques, training and evaluation. But again, there will be mistakes and difficult encounters even with highly trained and decent officers. The actual result of much of the recent scrutiny has been for police to withdraw from positive policing in communities, and in many cases, it's led to more crime.

If the press decides to continue their protocol of advancing the narrative that both incites and confirms anti-police bias, you'll continue to see the very rare cases endlessly running on video loops, so long as they can get the video. There are plenty of resources to find out the exact level of police bias but I suspect our essentially leftwing media and entertainment industries will continue to sell the story of rampant institutional police hatred of, bigotry towards, and indiscriminate slaughter of racial minorities. It looks like for now, the NFL and fans aren't buying this extreme view. If Kap wants a job, he's going to have to moderate his tone or vastly improve his game to become indispensable.

[hoosier]

Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

*If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.

There were a couple of articles in the NYT and WP shortly after that tried to get into the question of police training in whatever the suburb is called (St Anthony? Isn't Minneapolis supposed to leave the Catholic names on the other side of the river?). As Rand will surely point out, they come from the leftie mainstream media so take them with however much salt you please. The Times article suggests that some of the cop's recent training may have included some tactical sessions based on a warrior outlook. The WaPo article, misleadingly titled, is purely anecdotal (anecdote of one person) and speculative. So it's something but not enough to build a case around.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/minnesota-police-officers-bulletproof-warrior-training-is-questioned.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/22/bad-police-training-may-have-killed-philando-castile/?utm_term=.81bf0f6fe41a

[mraynrand]

The Times article suggests that some of the cop's recent training may have included some tactical sessions based on a warrior outlook.

I've heard the same thing from some southside cops. That, plus demographic prejudice can lead to some cops having hair triggers. It's a messy world. I wish I had a good answer how to de-escalate the rhetoric and the police encounters. Believe it or not, most cops don't want to shoot someone. But if they don't have the experience and wisdom to handle what seem to be tense but non-life threatening situations, they shouldn't be out there. The 'us or them' rhetoric doesn't seem to be helping.

[bobblehead]

Bobble, I'm inclined to agree that a large part of the problem is that police are trained to see themselves as warriors. Community policing and deescalation need to be emphasized more. That's a failure in leadership and education, but I suspect there is also a deeper societal issue here because ultimately police forces are not purely autonomous institutions, they are instruments that serve power interests.

You seem to be contradicting yourself about what makes it hard to convict cops. Or maybe not, maybe the average jurist really does end up concluding that they're not in a position to second guess the people who are out in the streets. If that is the case then they should never have been chosen as jurists.

I am contradicting myself. (in your eyes). Its a very difficult issue that everyone wants to paint as black and white.

Black: Cops kill people for no reason!

White: Cops are heroes who can never do wrong!

Reality: Cops are people. Some good, some bad. Mistakes happen, some egregious that shouldn't, some that are understandable.

But I don't think I am contradicting myself because In my eyes I have been arguing both sides from the start.

[hoosier]

I've heard the same thing from some southside cops. That, plus demographic prejudice can lead to some cops having hair triggers. It's a messy world. I wish I had a good answer how to de-escalate the rhetoric and the police encounters. Believe it or not, most cops don't want to shoot someone. But if they don't have the experience and wisdom to handle what seem to be tense but non-life threatening situations, they shouldn't be out there. The 'us or them' rhetoric doesn't seem to be helping.

I don't doubt that, as people, most cops don't want ever to be in the position of pulling the trigger and that many of those who do will be haunted or destroyed by the experience. But the culture and the training seem to be more powerful than the individual's conscience. David Couper, who became chief of the Madison PD in the midst of the student riots in the early 70s, had a real talent for calming heated situations. His take on current the current situation is that dialogue between police and community is impeded by cultural chasm. Police don't see themselves as public servants and don't want to listen to criticism or accept direction from the community because the community has never been in their shoes. He has some fairly specific recommendations for improving police-community relations in his book Arrested Development.

[Guiness]

holy fucking take it to FYI folks

[mraynrand]

I don't doubt that, as people, most cops don't want ever to be in the position of pulling the trigger and that many of those who do will be haunted or destroyed by the experience. But the culture and the training seem to be more powerful than the individual's conscience. David Couper, who became chief of the Madison PD in the midst of the student riots in the early 70s, had a real talent for calming heated situations. His take on current the current situation is that dialogue between police and community is impeded by cultural chasm. Police don't see themselves as public servants and don't want to listen to criticism or accept direction from the community because the community has never been in their shoes. He has some fairly specific recommendations for improving police-community relations in his book Arrested Development.

Your language is nicer than Kap and friends, but you too see the 'cultural chasm' as being entirely the fault of the police. What is the 'cultural chasm?' Who caused it? Who is using it as a political weapon? It may surprise you that most people in 'culturally chasmed' communities, while distrusting the police, still depend on them for some level of safety. People who hate the police still seem to call 911 when a victim of the cultural chasm inflicts physical rearrangement on them or appropriates objects from them.

[mraynrand]

holy fucking take it to FYI folks

PBmax is too busy for that. :)

[pbmax]

holy fucking take it to FYI folks

I'm here,
I'm queer,
I'm ...

Well, I'm going to stay here until Mad shuts the thread down whether it rhymes or not.

[pbmax]

I seriously doubt all of Kaepernick's thoughts are truly condensed down in that one Tweet after the Castile verdict. He has spoken far more thoughtfully prior. If somehow it represents a change of mind, I guess we will find out in the due course of time.

But the crux of the matter are lethal engagements that are completely avoidable. And the police, or the local sheriffs, are the institution centralized enough to adopt a different approach to reduce the number.

Community wide engagement to reduce hostile interactions is fine, but its will take longer to ramp up and be more expensive than to work from within. Same with hiring demographics, though both are fine areas to address.

The goal cannot simply be fewer police deaths. It has to include fewer civilian casualties. And I think the place to start is to have far more specific definitions that "believed he was in danger" for a threshold to action. Its not falsifiable and is impossible to adjudicate fairly.

[hoosier]

Your language is nicer than Kap and friends, but you too see the 'cultural chasm' as being entirely the fault of the police. What is the 'cultural chasm?' Who caused it? Who is using it as a political weapon? It may surprise you that most people in 'culturally chasmed' communities, while distrusting the police, still depend on them for some level of safety. People who hate the police still seem to call 911 when a victim of the cultural chasm inflicts physical rearrangement on them or appropriates objects from them.

Max's post already addresses the main point where I disagree with what you write: we're not just talking about individuals (cops and civilians), we're talking about how institutions train their officers. In the end it doesn't really matter how much "fault" you or I attribute to police when we're talking about preventable deaths that result from police misinterpretation, overreaction or whatever, because it's training (or training and legal codes) that will affect how frequently those things happen. The only thing I will add to what Max wrote is that, from a moral perspective, I believe that the police, as representatives of the law, should in a very specific way be held to a higher standard of conduct than civilians. The militarization of policing over the past few decades is detrimental to that principle, as is the idea that perceived danger is sufficient justification for use of lethal force.

[mraynrand]

Police are held to a higher standard

[Rutnstrut]

Bottom line imo. Kap is a POS that isn't really that into football.

[Guiness]

Bottom line imo. Kap is a POS that isn't really that into football.

Aw damn, I almost have to agree with The Rut. IMO Kap is not trying very hard to play football, he isn't (visibly to the public) working very hard at getting a job; not giving interviews saying he wants to play, talking about his SB experience, etc, or anything else that would put pressure on the league to take him seriously.

[mraynrand]

I farted into a cup and it sounded funny.

[Zool]

I wonder if he hadn't kneeled during the national anthem, would his tweets be this heavily scrutinized?

[mraynrand]

I wonder if he hadn't kneeled during the national anthem, would his tweets be this heavily scrutinized?

http://colossus.mu.nu/zod.jpg

[Zool]

http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e15/10832004_791456040901219_1025167860_n.jpg?ig_cache _key=ODY5MTg3MzE0MzA5NzMxMDYz.2

[smuggler]

People who lie down in front of traffic get run over and have been paid significantly less than Kaep. They are contributing to society about as much as each other (by that I mean not much in truth), so I don't have much simpathy for Kaep. He's still healthy and wealthy.

[Fritz]

I farted into a cup and it sounded funny.

If you fart into your cupped hand it sounds like a duck.

[hoosier]

If you fart into your cupped hand it sounds like a duck.

Please take that to the augmentation thread in the RR where it belongs.