Is McCarthy the problem?

[Vincenzo]

Recently Greg Jennings points to MM's conservatism as something that has cost the team championships.

http://www.packersnews.com/videos/sports/nfl/packers/2017/07/13/buzz-day-mccarthy-problem/103668734/

Yes you could say that Jennings is a douche and he's just trying to bring attention to himself, but I've heard such a criticism for years now. In my opinion, McCarthy has demonstrated over and over again that he can't put teams away and hangs on for dear life at the end of big games.

Perhaps Jennings brings up a legitimate beef, what do you think?

[mraynrand]

In my opinion, McCarthy has demonstrated over and over again that he can't put teams away and hangs on for dear life at the end of big games.

I think this is demonstrably true. The circumstances of each bungle however are uniquely different, suggesting the answer is more often Packers teams playing right up to their skill limit and leaving no room for error. Plus Stubby could turn coal into diamonds in that tight *** of his.

In the case of 2011, part of the blame rested squarely on Jennings. Football is a total team game. When guys point fingers, I'm 10 times more likely to blame the finger pointer than anyone else, especially when you have a team with such long term success as McCarthy's. Sour bitter grapes aired like Jennings is more a reflection of his character than anything else.

[gbgary]

we've all said this about him. when the defense can't be counted on to get a stop the o has to keep the pedal down. he doesn't do it for whatever reason.

maybe mm will call games with a little more urgency this season with Rodgers' "all-in" decree and his lastest "i'm on the back 9" now. ted needs to take note too. that's two warnings that aren't to be ignored before nuclear winter sets in.

[ThunderDan]

This is bs and we all know it. Smuggler or someone did an analysis of end of games and MM won more than anyone in the NFL but Billacheat.

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.

[mraynrand]

This is bs and we all know it. Smuggler or someone did an analysis of end of games and MM won more than anyone in the NFL but Billacheat.

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.


We're only talking about 'big games' that they blew down the stretch. If you include all games, you won't have a biased sample.

[mraynrand]

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.

Sure, but in games, as in life, you never get to do the control. What if Stubby goes all conservative at the end and runs Grant instead of Rodgers overthrowing Jennings on the deep bomb? Do they win then? No one will ever know. We also don't know that they get back in that game without an all out aerial bombardment. .....But we have a pretty good idea. :)

[pbmax]

This is bs and we all know it. Smuggler or someone did an analysis of end of games and MM won more than anyone in the NFL but Billacheat.

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.

I think it was vince who took exception and did some nice work to refute the point (which was my complaint, if I remember correctly).

I still think that does happen, though vince's work makes it clear its not Marvin Lewis like struggle we are talking about here.

It sort of shrank the complaint down to the level of goal to go personnel sets. Why limit your options and make the job of the defense easier when you have a lead and the greatest non interception machine ever?

[gbgary]

Why limit your options and make the job of the defense easier when you have a lead and the greatest non interception machine ever?

this!

[wist43]

M3 is a part of the problem, insomuch as he is partially resposible for the main problem - which is dunderdummy.

TT is equally to blame with McCarthy though as neither one of them has the guts to fire DD.

2017 will be another wasted year.

[Bretsky]

EPPN 1070 had a hayday with Jennings. There was an overwhelming consensus. There is Hoody Genius and the other 31 coaches. And it's not even close. Hello Captain Obvious....IMO

But they noted that the conservative route often chosen by MM is the same one Tomlin and every other coach in the NFL takes except Hoody Genius.

Some went on to further say that MM's calls are obviously worse because TT has did an amazing job stacking our offense and a sad job stacking our defense.

Obviously Wist didn't call in; nobody mentioned anything about Dom Capers and the defensive coaches besides the obvious references that they don't have enough to work with to rely on for key 3rd down stops

[mraynrand]

EPPN 1070 had a hayday with Jennings. There was an overwhelming consensus. There is Hoody Genius and the other 31 coaches. And it's not even close.

If that's really what they said, they're a bunch of idiots. Ya, Cheat is the best, but Stubby and few others are a clearly superior second group.

[Bretsky]

If that's really what they said, they're a bunch of idiots. Ya, Cheat is the best, but Stubby and few others are a clearly superior second group.

They didn't really attempt to tier coaches, but I'd agree with you Stubb is in the second tier in a group of the next 8 or so coaches

Their comments were as I stated....on this topic and the rest...there is Hoody and the rest of the pack

And Hoody is the one coach that will keep stomping on you while you are down because he knows his offense is superior. The rest...the last 31....just play the odds and call the game based on the score..etc.......

[vince]

Last 5 Years Run Rate by Down in 4th Q with a Lead

.............1........2........3......4.......Win % in Those Games
NE........52.0...32.3...14.6...1.1.........95.2
GB........51.1...33.9...13.6...1.4.........92.0
League..50.1...33.8...15.0...1.1.........82.1

Not a lot of difference in approach across the league in reality but the notion that Bellichick acts differently with a lead in the 4th is incorrect.

NE and GB have historically (last decade or so) been the 2 best teams in the league in successfully closing games with 4th Q lead. Widely-held misperceptions about this have to be based on 1 or 2 memorable anomalies.

[mraynrand]

Widely-held misperceptions about this have to be based on 1 or 2 memorable anomalies.

More like 3 or 4. A lot of pain is contained in 3.2%

[vince]

This is kind of interesting.

Last 5 Years Run Rate by Down in 4th Q close games (when leading by 7 or less)

..............1st........2nd......3rd.......4th... .......Win % in Those Game
NE..........53.8......29.7.....14.5......2.1...... ......90.0
GB..........49.4......33.3.....15.6......1.7...... ......89.5
League....53.2......32.4.....13.5......0.9........ ....68.8

[Pugger]

M3 is a part of the problem, insomuch as he is partially resposible for the main problem - which is dunderdummy.

TT is equally to blame with McCarthy though as neither one of them has the guts to fire DD.

2017 will be another wasted year.

I don't think TT hires or fires Mike's assistant coaches.

[pbmax]

Last 5 Years Run Rate by Down in 4th Q with a Lead

.............1........2........3......4.......Win % in Those Games
NE........52.0...32.3...14.6...1.1.........95.2
GB........51.1...33.9...13.6...1.4.........92.0
League..50.1...33.8...15.0...1.1.........82.1

Not a lot of difference in approach across the league in reality but the notion that Bellichick acts differently with a lead in the 4th is incorrect.

NE and GB have historically (last decade or so) been the 2 best teams in the league in successfully closing games with 4th Q lead. Widely-held misperceptions about this have to be based on 1 or 2 memorable anomalies.

Seriously, welcome back to the fray. But I have to set some time (probably during fantasy football prep) to dig in further to their records. The stuff you have dug up make it obvious the differences are not huge.

[Rutnstrut]

This is bs and we all know it. Smuggler or someone did an analysis of end of games and MM won more than anyone in the NFL but Billacheat.

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.

Except stubby has been saved by Rodgers. BB would still be a great coach without Brady. Rodgers should be paid 10 times what he is as he has made stubby and TT look great as opposed to the mediocre they are.

[mraynrand]

Except stubby has been saved by Rodgers.

*SIGH*

[Upnorth]

*SIGH*

Koolaid Drinker

[mraynrand]

Koolaid Drinker

I'll see you in the Meadow!

[Smeefers]

I'm going to jump in and say that everyone here except Vince is nuts. MM is one of the best coaches to ever grace the halls of flambeau field. In head to head matches with the Belicheck genius, he's out coached him every time. Do you guys remember wandering into fox borough with some second tier quarterback and we were within a hairs breath of beating them? I love how you guys blame Dom Capers for having Gunther shadowing Julio Jones. Or how you'll blame McCarthy for a TE who shall not be named screwing up the easiest offside kick return in history. We are constantly in serious contention for the super bowl. Year after freaking year. Not just some one and out at the end of the season. It's not like we haven't sniffed the playoffs in the last decade. No, we're right in the thick of things. Guess what, baring major catastrophe, we're going to be right in the thick of things again this year. There is absolutely nothing wrong with MM's coaching. If you think there is, I think you have blinders on. Tunnel vision man. Get into the dudes numbers. There's MM and there's Belicheck and then there's everyone else. He's the second best coach of this generation.

If you want to talk about how he hangs onto coaches too long? Sure, you probably have something there. Slocum was the thorn in the packers side forever. He's a guy who consistently put out a bad product. I could get behind getting rid of that guy and blaming mike for not doing it quickly enough. Like 5 years too late. That's about it though. Dude's too loyal to his staff. Other than that, there isn't a coach in the league that I'd take over him right now except for Belicheck. There is not one other dude who you could say is a solid upgrade to MM. And once again, even there, when the two have met, I think MM has outcoached him every time, regardless of outcome.

Alright. Back to lurking.

[Zool]

I don't have enough total recall to back up your assertion that he's outcoached Old Billy, but he's a pretty damned good coach. Dan Marino had Don Shula who is widely considered one of the best coaches ever. Marino had 9 playoff appearances in 17 years. 13 years were with Shula coaching and they hit the playoffs 6 times. I guess you can talk about NFC Championship games as a detriment, but that's a bit like saying Marv Levy is a bad coach because he lost 4 superbowls.

[mraynrand]

I'm going to jump in and say that everyone here except Vince is nuts. MM is one of the best coaches to ever grace the halls of flambeau field. In head to head matches with the Belicheck genius, he's out coached him every time. Do you guys remember wandering into fox borough with some second tier quarterback and we were within a hairs breath of beating them? I love how you guys blame Dom Capers for having Gunther shadowing Julio Jones. Or how you'll blame McCarthy for a TE who shall not be named screwing up the easiest offside kick return in history. We are constantly in serious contention for the super bowl. Year after freaking year. Not just some one and out at the end of the season. It's not like we haven't sniffed the playoffs in the last decade. No, we're right in the thick of things. Guess what, baring major catastrophe, we're going to be right in the thick of things again this year. There is absolutely nothing wrong with MM's coaching. If you think there is, I think you have blinders on. Tunnel vision man. Get into the dudes numbers. There's MM and there's Belicheck and then there's everyone else. He's the second best coach of this generation.

If you want to talk about how he hangs onto coaches too long? Sure, you probably have something there. Slocum was the thorn in the packers side forever. He's a guy who consistently put out a bad product. I could get behind getting rid of that guy and blaming mike for not doing it quickly enough. Like 5 years too late. That's about it though. Dude's too loyal to his staff. Other than that, there isn't a coach in the league that I'd take over him right now except for Belicheck. There is not one other dude who you could say is a solid upgrade to MM. And once again, even there, when the two have met, I think MM has outcoached him every time, regardless of outcome.

Alright. Back to lurking.

Good post. My abbreviation for this is: *SIGH*

I just get tired writing it out all the time.

[mraynrand]

that's a bit like saying Marv Levy is a bad coach because he lost 4 superbowls.

When the Levy breaks, mama you got to move.

[vince]

OK I was a little quick publishing those stats. Those are the percentage of runs on each down relative to the other downs, not relative to passes. Sorry about that.

Here are the 5-yr. run vs. pass rates in the 4th Q with a lead (all downs combined).

NE - 58%
GB - 63%
League - 65%

Belli is 5% more likely than McCarthy to pass with a lead in the 4th. McCarthy is 2% more likely than the league average. Both are very successful closing games.

[hoosier]

OK I was a little quick publishing those stats. Those are the percentage of runs on each down relative to the other downs, not relative to passes. Sorry about that.

Here are the 5-yr. run vs. pass rates in the 4th Q with a lead (all downs combined).

NE - 58%
GB - 63%
League - 65%

Belli is 5% more likely than McCarthy to pass with a lead in the 4th. McCarthy is 2% more likely than the league average. Both are very successful closing games.

To fully understand the comparison we would need to see a little more differentiation for circumstances. For instance, run calls according to down & distance and size of lead. They could have similar overall numbers in this fourth quarter with lead category, but if it turned out the Patriots tend to have bigger leads than the Packers, then MM's run-calling tendencies would seem even more comparatively conservative than the five percent indicated here.

[mraynrand]

To fully understand the comparison we would need to see a little more differentiation for circumstances.

I like to just watch the games. You get a feel for what works for a particular coach. I generally think many many Packer fans, angry with Stubby for his failures, don't actually watch a lot of other games and see how 25 or more head coaches screw things up on a routine basis.

There's a reason Stubby wins 10 or more games and makes the playoffs every year. And if some smart guy wants to say it's Rodgers bailing him out, then he should give credit to Stubby for training Rodgers so well. But he probably won't!

[Pugger]

Except stubby has been saved by Rodgers. BB would still be a great coach without Brady. Rodgers should be paid 10 times what he is as he has made stubby and TT look great as opposed to the mediocre they are.

Who do you think made Rodgers what he is today? Favre? :lol:

[hoosier]

I like to just watch the games. You get a feel for what works for a particular coach. I generally think many many Packer fans, angry with Stubby for his failures, don't actually watch a lot of other games and see how 25 or more head coaches screw things up on a routine basis.

There's a reason Stubby wins 10 or more games and makes the playoffs every year. And if some smart guy wants to say it's Rodgers bailing him out, then he should give credit to Stubby for training Rodgers so well. But he probably won't!

Football is about four decades if not more behind baseball in its analytical evolution. You, sitting on your couch, content to remain in your intuitive slumbers, are part of what is keeping football in its Dark Ages.

[Rutnstrut]

Who do you think made Rodgers what he is today? Favre? :lol:

Do you think Rodgers wouldn't be one of the best without stubby? I very much doubt that.

[mraynrand]

Do you think Rodgers wouldn't be one of the best without stubby? I very much doubt that.

I think there's a good chance he wouldn't. He had to shed his tedford indoctrination and learn new mechanics. He got to play in/run one of the best schemed offenses in the past 10 years. There was a pretty good chance he would have gone to a terrible team and have had a Joey Harrington career. there were probably a handful of teams that would have developed him at the same level. And sure, I give him a lot of credit for his success, but great players can suck in terrible environments, even if they develop OK. See for example Steve Young at Tampa Bay.

[MadScientist]

I think there's a good chance he wouldn't. He had to shed his tedford indoctrination and learn new mechanics. He got to play in/run one of the best schemed offenses in the past 10 years. There was a pretty good chance he would have gone to a terrible team and have had a Joey Harrington career. there were probably a handful of teams that would have developed him at the same level. And sure, I give him a lot of credit for his success, but great players can suck in terrible environments, even if they develop OK. See for example Steve Young at Tampa Bay.

So you're saying that had Favre retired earlier, Joey Harrington could have taken over the Packers and lead them to Super Bowl greatness?

[mraynrand]

So you're saying that had Favre retired earlier, Joey Harrington could have taken over the Packers and lead them to Super Bowl greatness?

:)


I don't think Stubby can save every QB. There was some guy they drafted in the second round who didn't pan out IIRC.

[pbmax]

The problem with those run rates is that when you run is almost as important as how much you run.

Last year McCarthy at times seemed to loosen up in the 4 minute offense and pass more when trying to burn clock. Problem was that on several occasions, he went run-run-pass from conservative formations before putting out his 3 WRs package for 3rd down. He might as well have sent Western Union onto the field.

This is Marty Schottenheimer level thinking. That there is a formula to win and if you follow it, you will win. Also, if another team is aware of the formula and counters it, then you just need to win harder.

The answer is to play smarter. You want to burn clock as priority #1 in the 4 minute offense? Then put your pass catching back out there in single back with 3 WRs or 2 TEs, with at least one in the slot. Then go pass-run-run or anything other than telegraphed play calls.

The good thing about those run rates is that it does support the idea that M3 is not far off the mark. He just needs to get over down and distance considerations and try to hurt the defense with some confusion.

[Rutnstrut]

I don't really dislike stubby's way of coaching, except. I hate his unwillingness to realize his "plan" isn't working and gameplan on the fly. That willingness to scrap a preplanned game plan and shift on the fly is what makes BB superhuman compared to other coaches. IMO stubby would never have brought a team back in the SB from behind like Belichick did. I do feel stubby would be the coach lose the lead in a big game though.

[mraynrand]

I don't really dislike stubby's way of coaching, except. I hate his unwillingness to realize his "plan" isn't working and gameplan on the fly. That willingness to scrap a preplanned game plan and shift on the fly is what makes BB superhuman compared to other coaches. IMO stubby would never have brought a team back in the SB from behind like Belichick did. I do feel stubby would be the coach lose the lead in a big game though.

That's why he's Stubby. Still, ya gotta admit, they were down by 14 to Seattle and came storming back (was Favre the one who changed the gameplay on the fly, was it Stubby or both?) and absolutely destroyed Seattle in 2007; Down by 17 at AZ and within about 2 feet of an OT win on that overthrow to Jennings. That's about as good as you can get comeback-wise in the playoffs. They gave up big leads versus Pittsburgh in the SB and Dallas in Divisional last year and still won. Seattle was their huge blunder, that's the only significant lead where they ended up losing in the playoffs, but it was only a two score lead (12 points).

[MadScientist]

The problem with those run rates is that when you run is almost as important as how much you run.

Last year McCarthy at times seemed to loosen up in the 4 minute offense and pass more when trying to burn clock. Problem was that on several occasions, he went run-run-pass from conservative formations before putting out his 3 WRs package for 3rd down. He might as well have sent Western Union onto the field.

This is Marty Schottenheimer level thinking. That there is a formula to win and if you follow it, you will win. Also, if another team is aware of the formula and counters it, then you just need to win harder.

The answer is to play smarter. You want to burn clock as priority #1 in the 4 minute offense? Then put your pass catching back out there in single back with 3 WRs or 2 TEs, with at least one in the slot. Then go pass-run-run or anything other than telegraphed play calls.

The good thing about those run rates is that it does support the idea that M3 is not far off the mark. He just needs to get over down and distance considerations and try to hurt the defense with some confusion.
Perhaps a good part of the problem lately is the personnel available. A RB that can catch and two TE's with one optionally split wide sound great, but when your TE's are crap (R.Rodgers and whoever when Cook was out last year) or one receiving TE (Cook) and a plodding piss-poor blocker (Rodgers). it just doesn't work like you would want it. Add to that a RB situation where you either had a plodding pounder (Rip or previously Fat Eddie), or a converted WR who will really struggle against a stop-the-run front, and you have a situation where it doesn't matter what you want to do, the players aren't going to do it very well.

This year they could play around with Monty and Rip in the backfield, the two good TE's and Jordy, which has potential for power running or 4 credible receiving threats and a bodyguard / safety valve for AR. At least on this forum it sounds good.

[pbmax]

Perhaps a good part of the problem lately is the personnel available. A RB that can catch and two TE's with one optionally split wide sound great, but when your TE's are crap (R.Rodgers and whoever when Cook was out last year) or one receiving TE (Cook) and a plodding piss-poor blocker (Rodgers). it just doesn't work like you would want it. Add to that a RB situation where you either had a plodding pounder (Rip or previously Fat Eddie), or a converted WR who will really struggle against a stop-the-run front, and you have a situation where it doesn't matter what you want to do, the players aren't going to do it very well.

This year they could play around with Monty and Rip in the backfield, the two good TE's and Jordy, which has potential for power running or 4 credible receiving threats and a bodyguard / safety valve for AR. At least on this forum it sounds good.

True for the recent past with the Cook exception, but I was looking forward with my suggestions.

Despite the lack of threatening TEs, M3 can still line up 3 wide in years past and threaten both pass and run. Does the lack of a TE hurt when attacking the middle? Sure. But there are other ways to stress the defense.

[Joemailman]

http://www.tmj4.com/sports/green-bay-packers/aaron-rodgers-defends-mike-mccarthy-after-greg-jennings-comments


Rodgers responded in defense of his coach, saying he’s more concerned with the opinions of his teammates and coaching staff.

“I’ve made it pretty well known how I feel about Mike,” Rodgers said. “He’s our leader and...we follow his lead and we love Mike. We believe in him, and he believes in us, and so we got his back.”

[Maxie the Taxi]

Is Stubby the problem?

The buck stops with him. He and his entire staff including Capers should go. Their act is stale. Being a Packers fan nowadays is like watching a long-running TV series that is past it's prime. The plot is predictable. I don't care if Stubby rallies the troops and runs the table. It's time for some new blood.

[texaspackerbacker]

There are a lot of worse head coaches around. McCarthy is ok when it comes to not overtly blowing games. He just doesn't take risks sometimes when they need to be taken to win tough games. (I hate to use the word conservative for that - try too cautious).

And regarding his staff, I've said many times, we would be seriously hurting without the creativity of Capers, given the lame personnel that Ted Thompson has saddled this team with. THAT is squarely where blame needs to be assessed - on Ted Thompson.

[gbgary]

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/images/smilies/iagree.gif for the most part.

[Rutnstrut]

There are a lot of worse head coaches around. McCarthy is ok when it comes to not overtly blowing games. He just doesn't take risks sometimes when they need to be taken to win tough games. (I hate to use the word conservative for that - try too cautious).

And regarding his staff, I've said many times, we would be seriously hurting without the creativity of Capers, given the lame personnel that Ted Thompson has saddled this team with. THAT is squarely where blame needs to be assessed - on Ted Thompson.

But Ted drafted Rodgers, that makes him a genius.

[mraynrand]

But Ted drafted Rodgers, that makes him a genius.

No, but he's OK when it comes to not overtly blowing every pick in all his drafts. Be careful: we really don't want to heap unnecessary praise on these losers.

[Tony Oday]

Capers sucks, the other offenses KNOW what we are calling.

[Vincenzo]

Is Stubby the problem?

The buck stops with him. He and his entire staff including Capers should go. Their act is stale. Being a Packers fan nowadays is like watching a long-running TV series that is past it's prime. The plot is predictable. I don't care if Stubby rallies the troops and runs the table. It's time for some new blood.
Hear, hear, couldn’t agree more!

[esoxx]

The 57 yard FG attempt was just plain dumb. Still hard to believe that decision actually.

[Joemailman]

I think McCarthy should stay and Capers should go. However, if McCarthy is unwilling to get rid of Capers, then perhaps they both need to go.

[mraynrand]

"Stubby, Look at you. You used to be so cocky. You were going to go out and conquer the NFL. You once called Bill Belichick "a warped, frustrated, cheating coach"! What are you but a warped, frustrated middle-aged coach? A miserable little head coach from a tiny little town crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for a contract extension. No playoffs this year, no championship, nothin' but a single miserable little Super Bowl victory some NFC north trophies and 8 straight playoff appearances. Why, you're worth more dead than alive! Stubby, why don't you go to that Packer fan base you love so much and ask them to let you keep your job? You know why? Because they'd run you out of town on a rail."

[Vincenzo]

The 57 yard FG attempt was just plain dumb. Still hard to believe that decision actually.
Fans are just starting to notice things like the 57 yard field goal attempt now.
There’s been signs of his thick headed ness years ago.
I don’t think we will ever, ever forgive him for that Seahawks NFC Championship poop the bed.
Sure you could start blaming Bostick and other players for it, but MM’s conservative play calling coming down the stretch of that game was the clincher.

[pbmax]

The 57 yard FG attempt was just plain dumb. Still hard to believe that decision actually.

If Crosby tells you he can make it, you do not believe him? What do you put his odds at?

[Joemailman]

I was opposed to trying the 57 yard field goal. However, if Crosby had made it, it wouldn't have been the first time he made a kick that I thought shouldn't have been attempted. My opposition to trying the kick had nothing to do with Crosby. With the revolving door at long snapper, the kicking game has been a little less dependable this year.

[pbmax]

I was opposed to trying the 57 yard field goal. However, if Crosby had made it, it wouldn't have been the first time he made a kick that I thought shouldn't have been attempted. My opposition to trying the kick had nothing to do with Crosby. With the revolving door at long snapper, the kicking game has been a little less dependable this year.

He always believes in his guys.

Did anyone see any discussion about what happened with the block? Low kick or penetration?

[esoxx]

If Crosby tells you he can make it, you do not believe him? What do you put his odds at?

Considering the longest FG in Heinz Field history is 53 yards (yes tied by Boswell Sunday night), I'd put the odds of him making it between slim and none.

I think there was talk he was hitting some in pregame but hellva difference between pregame and game conditions with a rush on.

It was a reckless and foolish decision. It was then and is now.

[pbmax]

Considering the longest FG in Heinz Field history is 53 yards (yes tied by Boswell Sunday night), I'd put the odds of him making it between slim and none.

I think there was talk he was hitting some in pregame but hellva difference between pregame and game conditions with a rush on.

It was a reckless and foolish decision. It was then and is now.

Heinz field has had some terrible fields, much worse than Sunday night. Horrible rain and wind. And a HOST of bad FG kickers after the naked selfie guy left the scene.

I don't think the history tells as much of a story as people seem to be thinking. Wonder what the numbers are on good kickers over 50 yards there is decent conditions.

[Teamcheez1]

If Crosby tells you he can make it, you do not believe him? What do you put his odds at?

Since no one has ever kicked a FG longer than 53 yards at Heinz Field, I put the odds close to zero.

[QBME]

Is Stubby the problem?

The buck stops with him. He and his entire staff including Capers should go. Their act is stale. Being a Packers fan nowadays is like watching a long-running TV series that is past it's prime. The plot is predictable. I don't care if Stubby rallies the troops and runs the table. It's time for some new blood.

I would have to believe the buck actually stops with Mark Murphy. The man large and in charge. Unless we want to dig a little deeper, then the buck stops with the 43 (count 'em) folks who ultimately decide - http://www.packers.com/team/executive-committee.html

[Joemailman]

Considering the longest FG in Heinz Field history is 53 yards (yes tied by Boswell Sunday night), I'd put the odds of him making it between slim and none.

I think there was talk he was hitting some in pregame but hellva difference between pregame and game conditions with a rush on.

It was a reckless and foolish decision. It was then and is now.

Boswell, who had never kicked a FG longer than 51 yards, kicked one for 53 in the game. So there's almost no way that Crosby, a much more accomplished kicker, could have kicked one from 4 yards further out? Nonsense.

[denverYooper]

Since no one has ever kicked a FG longer than 53 yards at Heinz Field, I put the odds close to zero.

I'd guess somewhere around 30% for Crosby. I'd be willing to bet that if they it were possible to know the exact chances and someone told M3 that there was a 1 in 3 chance, he'd still take it. He took a risk on one of his better players making a play and it didn't work out.

At any rate, I doubt punting was ever considered. If they had Rodgers, they would have gone for the 1st down. Hundley was like 6/7 on third down in that game, so maybe they should have gone after it.

[pbmax]

The answer to the OP question is: partially.

Even if you assume the worst about Ted's draft picks, the coaches haven't gotten much pass rush out of a good number of high draft picks. Probably mostly misfit of scheme and then some questions about effective assistant coaching.

Matthews was a hit, Raji was for one year and Perry had to get over his injuries then reclaim the starter job from Peppers. Otherwise it took 'til Clark to give them some movement up front. I do think Ted has struggled to find that athletic lean guy (Fackrell, Thompson) in the mid rounds for pass rush and he has never found the squat guy to do it (Miller, Harrison) in the later rounds. But I really thought either Elliot or Fackrell would fill this spot.

The Packers had oodles of DB talent for years and still struggled too often to rush the passer. When the talent got old, replacing it took a while and was compounded by a lot of communication errors. The design took too long to adjust, and that is on Capers and M3.

McCarthy and his assistants, with one exception, has done much better with misfit parts in assembling an offense. They took too long to find an offense and rhythm for Hundley. And God knows what they were thinking with Harrell and Coleman.

As usual, the question is whether they have learned anything from this. Ted seems bent more than ever (probably from his dabbling in analytics) on athleticism, especially after Atlanta torched them in the playoffs. The question is now whether the Asst. Coaches can get them up to speed and install a scheme they can play well.

My concerns about assistants are, in order, OLB coach (Green developed Matthews and the pfft, Moss has an assistant who is a cypher to me), Trgovac (what happened to Raji and Jones?) and Perry (huge struggle to find a safety next to Burnett and now Dix is having a poor season where he struggles to call the defense).

Luke Getsy as WR coach has not really distinguished himself. The RB coach should get a raise this year. The TE coach should be fired on general principle and Campen should get a bust in the Packer HoF for his work the last 5 years.

[texaspackerbacker]

If Crosby tells you he can make it, you do not believe him? What do you put his odds at?

I think he had the wind, and the Steelers guy - no better than Crosby - kicked it 53 yards in that direction to win the game. I can't fault him too much for letting him kick it.

[woodbuck27]

This is bs and we all know it. Smuggler or someone did an analysis of end of games and MM won more than anyone in the NFL but Billacheat.

Look at the ARI/GB playoff game to see an attacking end of the game strategy backfire.

[COLOR="#008080"]MM is off the wall erratic in his style of play calling. He's either way too conservative or wildly too stupid optimistic. WE certainly saw that Vs Pittsburgh and a dumb ass call for a FG that had to be missed in all probability for little gain. Punt the ball and hold and get into the Dressing Room to Re-Group. No..not lame brained Mike McCarthy.

ThunderDan you one of the few Million Packer fans in Packer Nation that actually believed in Mike McCarthy's call there. That is just who you are. That is why I would easily out play you like I do by far most people and playing Poker.

To be smart you need to have the smarts. That's NOT Mike McCarthy.

Sorry but that's too easy for me to see since he became the Packer HC. He feeds off Aaron Rodgers .He fed off Brett Favre. He's postering through Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers as an exceptional Head Coach.

Frankly he doesn't act at all that intelligent given a Man of his vast experience and NFL Coaching. I feel sad to observe and have to admit that to myself. I want the Green Bay Packers in another Super Bowl game.

He's a Blue Collar Guy trying to do 'a Big Brain White Collar heavy on the Leadership and all in honest with himself' job. Frankly I don't believe at all in him because too often he gives me little in the long of it I can trust to believe.

Put otherwise; I measure a Man by his integrity and Mike McCarthy is lacking in that area. That's just what I see.

Too much same Ole Same OLe BULLSHIT = Mike McCarthy.

The deal is 'and REALITY', that Mike McCarthy lasts as long as Ted Thompson decides to grind out .......................his act.

I want to see Aaron Rodgers just win another Super Bowl, even if I have to cheer for him and on another NFL Team. It's not ever going to happen in Green Bay. Not with TT and MM trying to do whatever, and their constant now FAIL.

Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy and Dom Capers are failing constantly and Super Bowl.

They will continue to fail as they must and are. Count on this...I am right.

I sure don't desire to be right and this one. Sadly..... I simply am.

GO PACK GO !

[Smidgeon]

I'd guess somewhere around 30% for Crosby. I'd be willing to bet that if they it were possible to know the exact chances and someone told M3 that there was a 1 in 3 chance, he'd still take it. He took a risk on one of his better players making a play and it didn't work out.

At any rate, I doubt punting was ever considered. If they had Rodgers, they would have gone for the 1st down. Hundley was like 6/7 on third down in that game, so maybe they should have gone after it.

We never got a replay of the snap and hold, did we? I thought that was an egregious oversight for such an important play.

[ThunderDan]

ThunderDan you one of the few Million Packer fans in Packer Nation that actually believed in Mike McCarthy's call there. That is just who you are. That is why I would easily out play you like I do by far most people and playing Poker.


Just to set you straight, because your reading comprehension doesn't seem to be that good, I was against MM kicking the FG on Sunday night.

Here is what I posted on the game day thread:


Two sacks takes us out of fog range.

Got to love autocorrect that turns FG into fog.

I posted something similar to Rut in another thread.

[Pugger]

If the concensus here is to replace the whole staff, who should we bring in as GM and HC? Its easy to say "Fire So 'n So" but if we do the people we bring in better produce seeing before Rodgers isn't getting any younger.

[pbmax]

We never got a replay of the snap and hold, did we? I thought that was an egregious oversight for such an important play.

Snap looked high and inside to me, but Vogel seemed ready for it. Like maybe he wants the ball into his chest.

He got the ball down about where his hand was pre snap. Hard to be sure without closer look on replay.

[mraynrand]

Got to love autocorrect that turns FG into fog.


Scott Norwood missed his superb owl in the fog.