DOUGHERTY analysis and a COMPARISON of GREEN BAY versus the CLEVELAND BROWNS ROSTER MINUS the QB

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/10/28/dougherty-without-aaron-rodgers-packers-just-another-team/806393001/

[bobblehead]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/10/28/dougherty-without-aaron-rodgers-packers-just-another-team/806393001/

So, his point is that QB is the most important position...DUH!

He thinks that having a big edge at RB is not much worse than having a big edge in S and WR...its a passing league, that is a HUGE EDGE. Especially when you factor the packers OL advantage, it negates the RB advantage.

Talk to me when we lose the next 6 straight and we are 0-7 without Rodgers.

[mraynrand]

The Browns aren't a laughing stock because of the QB position; they're a laughing stock because the organization is a mess. They've had several QBs who have been sufficiently competent to run an offense and generate wins. If you look, Hoyer was actually their last winning QB. THat's not too long ago - a few years. McCown can win games - and is wining games for the Jets this year. Both of those guys played some games before becoming starters for Cleveland. The difference right now for the Packers is that their backup lacks actual NFL starting experience.

But back to Cleveland-Packers organization. These are vastly different situations. Obviously the Browns went with this moneyball approach run by non-football people. They've accumulated all these picks, but depleted the roster, gotten extraordinarily young at key positions, made lots of draft blunders, and passed on a franchise QB twice. In contrast, the Packers hired a coach who is a QB guru, and they found their guy. Stubby and TT organized the team around Rodgers and winning with mostly a dominant offense. That's why they suffer so much with Rodgers out - much like the Colts became dependent on Manning. The league is QB-centered and designed to punish success. The teams that can consistently win find ways to counter this, but mostly they do so centering their team around a talented dynamic QB. But to even suggest that Cleveland = GB - Rodgers is absurd, even if they both end up with the same record. Because if Rodgers is lost for more than a year/ when he retires, the Packers will go get that next QB and run their team around that guy. They may be less successful until they get/train him up, but they will be on the correct path. The same cannot - at all - be said for Cleveland, because - in addition to a myriad of other problems - they still haven't figured out that it's a QB driven league and that they must get their franchise QB - this, even though they hired a supposed QB guru/offensive-minded coach.

[pbmax]

It doesn't help that the team changes coaches and front offices on schedule about every four years. By the time they have a handle on the job, in come the new incompetents.

[Pugger]

The Browns aren't a laughing stock because of the QB position; they're a laughing stock because the organization is a mess. They've had several QBs who have been sufficiently competent to run an offense and generate wins. If you look, Hoyer was actually their last winning QB. THat's not too long ago - a few years. McCown can win games - and is wining games for the Jets this year. Both of those guys played some games before becoming starters for Cleveland. The difference right now for the Packers is that their backup lacks actual NFL starting experience.

But back to Cleveland-Packers organization. These are vastly different situations. Obviously the Browns went with this moneyball approach run by non-football people. They've accumulated all these picks, but depleted the roster, gotten extraordinarily young at key positions, made lots of draft blunders, and passed on a franchise QB twice. In contrast, the Packers hired a coach who is a QB guru, and they found their guy. Stubby and TT organized the team around Rodgers and winning with mostly a dominant offense. That's why they suffer so much with Rodgers out - much like the Colts became dependent on Manning. The league is QB-centered and designed to punish success. The teams that can consistently win find ways to counter this, but mostly they do so centering their team around a talented dynamic QB. But to even suggest that Cleveland = GB - Rodgers is absurd, even if they both end up with the same record. Because if Rodgers is lost for more than a year/ when he retires, the Packers will go get that next QB and run their team around that guy. They may be less successful until they get/train him up, but they will be on the correct path. The same cannot - at all - be said for Cleveland, because - in addition to a myriad of other problems - they still haven't figured out that it's a QB driven league and that they must get their franchise QB - this, even though they hired a supposed QB guru/offensive-minded coach.

this all day

[beveaux1]

The Browns aren't a laughing stock because of the QB position; they're a laughing stock because the organization is a mess. They've had several QBs who have been sufficiently competent to run an offense and generate wins. If you look, Hoyer was actually their last winning QB. THat's not too long ago - a few years. McCown can win games - and is wining games for the Jets this year. Both of those guys played some games before becoming starters for Cleveland. The difference right now for the Packers is that their backup lacks actual NFL starting experience.

But back to Cleveland-Packers organization. These are vastly different situations. Obviously the Browns went with this moneyball approach run by non-football people. They've accumulated all these picks, but depleted the roster, gotten extraordinarily young at key positions, made lots of draft blunders, and passed on a franchise QB twice. In contrast, the Packers hired a coach who is a QB guru, and they found their guy. Stubby and TT organized the team around Rodgers and winning with mostly a dominant offense. That's why they suffer so much with Rodgers out - much like the Colts became dependent on Manning. The league is QB-centered and designed to punish success. The teams that can consistently win find ways to counter this, but mostly they do so centering their team around a talented dynamic QB. But to even suggest that Cleveland = GB - Rodgers is absurd, even if they both end up with the same record. Because if Rodgers is lost for more than a year/ when he retires, the Packers will go get that next QB and run their team around that guy. They may be less successful until they get/train him up, but they will be on the correct path. The same cannot - at all - be said for Cleveland, because - in addition to a myriad of other problems - they still haven't figured out that it's a QB driven league and that they must get their franchise QB - this, even though they hired a supposed QB guru/offensive-minded coach.

Absolutely true.

[texaspackerbacker]

The position by position comparison in the article seems fairly valid. Cleveland may be as bad as they are because of flaws other than personnel, but the point of the article is about the Packers, and how mediocre the roster is other than Aaron Rodgers. That much is pretty hard to disagree with. Our O Line is crap. Our D personnel other than the D Line is mediocre at best. Good pass receivers make a QB better; We're finding out that ours only seemed as good as they seemed because of our QB.

It's not just a question of having the team built around the QB; It's being way too lax (or unlucky if you prefer) about building up a decent supporting cast at all.

[Fritz]

This is all why I am, so far, disappointed with Hundley's performance. I know it's a very small sample size, but he does not look like a guy who's been studying and waiting in the wings for over two years.

Cripes, Mikey, just turn him loose to do what he does best. Quit trying to protect him with the play calling. And offensive line, give the kid a little time to throw the ball already.

And Hundley, prove that you're an NFL quarterback. Make the reads. See the whole field.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This is all why I am, so far, disappointed with Hundley's performance. I know it's a very small sample size, but he does not look like a guy who's been studying and waiting in the wings for over two years.

He seems to have regressed as a passer. Is that even possible?

But it was just one game....

[Teamcheez1]

The Browns are headed to 0-8 this season which will place them at 4-36 over the last three seasons.

Someone is going to make the argument that they are as good as the Packers sans the QB?

[mraynrand]

The position by position comparison in the article seems fairly valid. Cleveland may be as bad as they are because of flaws other than personnel, but the point of the article is about the Packers, and how mediocre the roster is other than Aaron Rodgers. That much is pretty hard to disagree with. Our O Line is crap. Our D personnel other than the D Line is mediocre at best. Good pass receivers make a QB better; We're finding out that ours only seemed as good as they seemed because of our QB.

It's not just a question of having the team built around the QB; It's being way too lax (or unlucky if you prefer) about building up a decent supporting cast at all.

Even though you can find gems later in the draft or sign FA, it's just a harder numbers game when you are always picking late. The difference makers go early

[Bretsky]

If I posted more articles from this guy he'd soon be considered Satan as Bob McGinn was in here. Agree or not it was an interesting analysis. It shows how important the QB is; and questions how well we've done building around the best player in the NFL

[Maxie the Taxi]

BRETT HUNDLEY

From 2015 NFL Draft Tracker:

Overview

In 2014, selected second-team All-Pac-12, was a Davey O'Brien Award semifinalist, was named a team captain and started 13 games for the Bruins. Led the team with 10 rushing touchdowns. Became the first UCLA quarterback to win 9-plus games in three consecutive seasons. Finished his career as the all-time leader in UCLA history with 75 touchdowns and 11,677 total yards. Started every game in 2013 and was selected honorable mention All-Pac-12. Named Co-MVP of Sun Bowl. Became first player in school history to throw, catch and run for a touchdown in a game (vs. Utah). Selected honorable mention All-Pac-12 as 14-game starter in 2012, setting school records for completions, passing yards and total offense. Named Arizona Gatorade Player of the Year in 2009 at Chandler High School. Named SuperPrep Farwest Offensive Player of the Year.

Analysis

Strengths
Well-built with frame sturdy enough to handle rigors of the position. Asked to get through progressions and make decisions. Willing to stand in and take the hit when he zeroes in on his target. Willing to get take downfield shot and give his receiver a chance to make the play. Has the ability to maneuver inside of pocket to buy time. Poised enough from pocket. Has adequate release and enough arm when he sits down on his throws. Above-average foot quickness to escape pocket. Hit 57-yard play action touchdown from under center against Washington in 2014 (just seven attempts under center all year). Good sense of pocket pressure and is decisive when he decides to bolt. Dangerous as a runner with enough speed to hit a big play on the ground. Dual-threat ability increases his effectiveness in red zone. Displays his toughness almost every time out.

Weaknesses
Hasn't shown an ability to win from the pocket yet. Protected by play action-based short passing game that held linebackers and cornerbacks at bay. Internal clock is a mess. Has marginal anticipation, and appears to be lacking in ability to read defenses and create a pre-snap plan. Slow getting through progressions, taking 125 sacks in three years. Inconsistent weight transfer on throws, which affects accuracy (throws sail) and velocity. Needs to reset feet when swiveling from side to side while scanning for next target. Gets crowded in pocket rather than sliding to open space. Short-arms too many throws. Ineffective, inaccurate passer outside of pocket with lowest completion percentage in Pac-12 when scrambling (32.6 percent). Misses opportunities to climb pocket while keeping eyes downfield rather than taking off as a runner.

Draft Projection Round 4 or 5

Sources Tell Us
"Someone will draft him, but I don't think he will ever be a starter. He can't read coverages and struggles to process. It is going to take a few years before he looks like a backup in my opinion. He has a long way to go." -- AFC area scout

NFL Comparison Jason Campbell

Bottom Line
Hundley flashes athleticism and talent, but his basic quarterbacking issues will take time to improve. In 2014, more than 54 percent of his pass attempts were from six yards and in, including 29 percent from behind the line of scrimmage, which is nothing like an NFL offense. Hundley is a "flash" prospect who shows the physical tools to be a starter, but his internal clock and issues with reads and progressions must be improved to give him a shot at becoming a decent NFL starter.

[red]

sooo, he hasn't changed at all under 3 years of guidance from the "QB guru"

[mraynrand]

sooo, he hasn't changed at all under 3 years of guidance from the "QB guru"

"3 years"

[Pugger]

The Browns are headed to 0-8 this season which will place them at 4-36 over the last three seasons.

Someone is going to make the argument that they are as good as the Packers sans the QB?

It appears everyone - and not just folks here - thinks our roster is a dumpster fire and only 4 or 5 of the guys on our roster outside #12 would start for another team and the rest would be lucky to play ST elsewhere - including the Browns. The only reason we won't be picking #1 next spring is because we won 4 games before Rodgers got hurt. Why would Rodgers even want to sign an extension in 2020 and waste more time with these losers?

/sarcasm

[texaspackerbacker]

Even though you can find gems later in the draft or sign FA, it's just a harder numbers game when you are always picking late. The difference makers go early

You can find a LOT of exceptions to that - and we sure haven't had our share of them.

[pbmax]

You can find a LOT of exceptions to that - and we sure haven't had our share of them.

Certainly not on the offensive line.

;-)

[mraynrand]

You can find a LOT of exceptions to that - and we sure haven't had our share of them.

Of course you can find exceptions. But you have to add contex. Are you cherry picking or looking at actual frequencies. Like how often is an all pro OLB selected after the 20th pick?

Is Daniels an exception or the rule for where he was picked?

If the top 10 WR in the game, how many made it to the second round?

If the Packers are selecting poor players at their position who does a better job on average? And how are you scoring it? Tackles? Yards surrendered? What weight do
Give to overall schedule? Do other teams have more passing yards over the past ten years against the Packers because they are trying to catch up/ keep pace versus a terrible D? Would they have fewer yards if the Packers O sucked and they ran it more to run out the clock?

Etc etc.

I don't have perfect answers for those questions so that's why I put more weight on the total team concept and results.

[Bretsky]

Certainly not on the offensive line.

;-)


actually Buluga was a pick in the 20's and when healthy he's pretty dam good

[pbmax]

actually Buluga was a pick in the 20's and when healthy he's pretty dam good

Sure. But Bach, Lang, Taylor, Linsley, Sitton and Murphy weren't early round picks.

[Tony Oday]

Last I heard the Browns don't have an in-house scouting department, they farm it out.

[run pMc]

Yeah, this is McGinn-ish. Consider the timing (bye week) and need to consistently drive traffic to the site for ad revenue.


Look at the blues. Those are the guys who change games. None for either team without Rodgers. The Packers have three reds to the Browns’ one, and eight golds to the Browns’ five. So the Packers again come out ahead. But it doesn’t come close to accounting for the difference between these two teams.


So sure, there are differences between some NFL rosters. Coaching matters, too. But a lot more often than not, one player separates teams in this league.

Apparently, that one player isn't a red or gold. I'd say if you're grading a roster overall, I'd rather have more blues, reds, and golds than not...and GB has them over CLE in spite of their respective annual drafting slots.
Draft talent tends to get sorted into tiers, and it's rare for GB to draft in that top tier.

I honestly don't think the roster -- when healthy -- is devoid of talent or on a par with Cleveland (whose defense is improved BTW). They have some depth issues, but every team does. Losing starters exposes that.
Going into the season we could see they were taking some risks with their pass rush/OLB's and that has proved to be a losing proposition. I think that's where they've suffered the most...a pass rush helps the secondary, and can force 3-and-outs.
King and Jones will get better over the season, and hopefully Burnett/HHCD will get healthy and back to playing like they can. Daniels is good, and Clark is up and coming. It's the LBs that need to force the issue IMO.

The pre-Hundley offense was pretty good despite all the OL shuffling. Haven't seen much in Hundley to make me think Rodgers' job is in danger, but maybe he'll be Matt Flynn 2.0.

The manic-depressive nature of NFL fandom is either hilarious or maddening, depending on your take.

[KYPack]

Last I heard the Browns don't have an in-house scouting department, they farm it out.

Nah, they have their own scouting organization. In fact, they signed one of our young scouts a year or so ago. I'm surprised more teams don't do that also.

Now how good the Brown-eyes scouting system is, I couldn't say.

[pbmax]

The Bengals skimp in the scouting department, thought they have increased staff under Lewis.

[KYPack]

The Bengals skimp in the scouting department, thought they have increased staff under Lewis.

They skimp in every department:

-The owners daughter runs the cap "department" from spreadsheets on her computer. She royally screws 'em up, causing the team to lose players from time to time.

- A team broadcaster was asked to scout a player for an upcoming draft. He refused, he already had work to do to prepare for the game.

- There are many other examples which I could relate, but that is all the people need to know.

[mraynrand]

^^^ lol.

If Bob McGinn had scouted for the Pack in 2006, they would have traded down from AJ Hawk, received picks 12 and 20 and drafted Halioti Ngata and Tamba Hali (three way trade - Bob, who cares about the Packers, unlike TT, would've made it happen).

BRING BLACK BOB!

[woodbuck27]

He seems to have regressed as a passer. Is that even possible?

But it was just one game....

I'll enjoy seeing Detroit @ Green Bay this week.

The Green Bay Packers are going to have their hands full as the Detroit Lions ran up about 500 Yards on 'O' and simply stalled time after time in the Red Zone. The Pittsburgh Steelers stole a Road Game win from Detroit.

Packer HC Mike McCarthy and his Coaching Staff are going to have to have his QB and all troops Fired Up come Sunday in Week 9.

Ohh there is 'no way' the Green Bay Packers are anything as bad as the Cleveland Browns.

It's in the fact that The NFL is a QB driven league. The NFL Power Ranked 31st Team San Fran 49ers just acquired the NE Pat's Backup Jimmy Garoppolo for what....a 2018 second-round pick I'm guessing that Bill Belichick was being kind to Jimmy Garoppolo here and not trading him to the what seems perennial worst NFL Team or the Cleveland Browns.

A. I swear that if the Green Bay Packers ever really resemble the Cleveland Browns my nearly six decade relationship with the Green Bay Packers as a dedicated fan will....................end. :huh:

B. :-) .... Of course... I'll very likely turn to what too many here do and find every excuse for Packer failure. :whaa:

Realistically A. will not become a reality and therefore I won't ever need to stoop to B.

GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/10/28/dougherty-without-aaron-rodgers-packers-just-another-team/806393001/

A very prominent 'wanna be Leader' south of my Canadian Border might say:

Fire DOUGHERTY ! FIRE his Ass.

How could a Green Bay Beat Writer ever publish such utter nonsense!? :whaa:

It's somehow got to be a joke and he has a very dry sense of humour or PLEASE someone (anyone) call 911 as 'this Beat Writer' is in serious need of 'a Head Check'. :idea: