Official Fire Dom Capers Thread

[Joemailman]

Can't believe nobody's started one.

Anybody else get the feeling opposing offenses know exactly what's coming?

As Kevin Greene said to Clay Matthews in the Super Bowl: It is time. IT IS TIME!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I've been on the Fire Capers bandwagon since last year. There is talent on this defense. I don't think it's being coached up.

[Pugger]

As much as I believe IT IS TIME I doubt anyone is going to get canned until after the season is over.

[channtheman]

Clean house? MM is proving he is nothing without Rodgers, which is just another way of saying he is nothing. It appears Rodgers is so good, he has covered up a lot of the poor coaching and bad play. We have lost 3 games that Rodgers likely leads us to victory. The offense coming off a bye was incredibly atrocious. MM did not have this team prepared in any way to play.

[pbmax]

There are three problems

1. People know what is coming. That is on Capers.

2. No pass rush. That is on Ted. Blitz schemes with 5-6 rushers hurt eventually and they aren't even getting home.

3. Talent development. Either there isn't talent or its not being forged to be better. Hard to say with this year's rookies, but the only upperclassmen to make jumps on this defense are Clark and Martinez plus Daniels some time ago. I think this is on the coaches but also falls to the personnel department and I don't know in what percentage. Why Fackrell is on the team and not Peppers doesn't make sense nine games in.

I think coaches and GMs should improve with time, not get stale. They also shouldn't be fired after 3 or 4 years for flaws that should be fixable. The offense has been up and down but mostly dominates game in the last five years. The best of the defenses have been just better than adequate.

If you can make a definitive case for what Fackrell and not Peppers, then I can tell you the scope of the problem. However, Peppers wasn't the difference maker last year.

For the first time in a long time, I think its time for Dom to go.

[call_me_ishmael]

It's time. I'm on the train.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Welcome aboard. Been calling for this for 3 years. Wist has been here the longest though.

[Teamcheez1]

I supported Dom for many years, but I jumped off the bandwagon last year.

It's time to move in another direction. MM is not doing much better, albeit under much tougher conditions.

[hoosier]

If you can make a definitive case for what Fackrell and not Peppers, then I can tell you the scope of the problem. However, Peppers wasn't the difference maker last year.

I think you partially answered your own question right there: last year Peppers looked like a player well into his decline whereas Fackrell, at least to somebody's eyes, still had an upside. Maybe he does and it just hasn't been tapped yet. Or maybe TT has gotten careless in his evaluation of talent, like the old Don driving with Fredo and getting out of the car to visit the fruit stand. At the time the decision to let Peppers go--assuming that it was really a Packer decision--didn't look so bad, and it certainly fit with TT's development MO. But maybe it wasn't really the Packers' decision, maybe Peppers decided he wanted to play out his final season back home and he is now going out in style.

[Rutnstrut]

Really if you think about it objectively and not as a homer. It's past time for Capers and TT, and time to put stubby on notice.

[Rutnstrut]

Perhaps Peppers is having a decent year because he is in a better coached system.

[Maxie the Taxi]

In the NFL the longer you're around the more film history you generate for offenses to pick you apart. Dom was an innovator but injuries and youth (and maybe his own loss of energy/interest) limits what he can do that's new. I've always suspected that Dom's defenses are too complicated. Too many moving parts. If you're guys are vets and healthy, no problem. But if not, you've got trouble. Maybe a youthful innovator like Dave Aranda is what we need.

[pbmax]

Perhaps Peppers is having a decent year because he is in a better coached system.

He has three pass rushing threats next to him, that's the main thing.

[Fritz]

Clean house? MM is proving he is nothing without Rodgers, which is just another way of saying he is nothing. It appears Rodgers is so good, he has covered up a lot of the poor coaching and bad play. We have lost 3 games that Rodgers likely leads us to victory. The offense coming off a bye was incredibly atrocious. MM did not have this team prepared in any way to play.

I'm on the fire Capers bandwagon now; other teams seem to know exactly what's coming, and despite some talent on defense (Clark, Martinez, Josh Jones, maybe King, maybe one or two others), that defense just cannot get off the field. The pass rush is non-existent. Doesn't matter if the Packers tackle for a loss on first down and on second down; on third down the opposing QB will have all day and all night to throw, unless Capers rushes five or six, in which case the opposing team seems to know it's coming, and so screen plays go for fifteen or twenty yards. Or on third down Mike Daniels will eff it up with a dumb, dumb penalty.

And this is on MM, too. That was NOT a team that was ready to play. What's with the idiotic play-calling? For at least half the game, MM had his preferred offensive line, yet the vast majority of pass plays were those dumb -behind-the-line-of-scrimmage throws that, after the first three times, did not work at all.

That team stunk up the joint. Bad. It's a long season, and I know things change, but that did not look good. Period. They had two weeks to get ready, get their heads on straight - but instead, they had their heads firmly planted up their asses.

[Rutnstrut]

He has three pass rushing threats next to him, that's the main thing.

Better team also helps. It's still on Capers and TT.

[pbmax]

I think you partially answered your own question right there: last year Peppers looked like a player well into his decline whereas Fackrell, at least to somebody's eyes, still had an upside. Maybe he does and it just hasn't been tapped yet. Or maybe TT has gotten careless in his evaluation of talent, like the old Don driving with Fredo and getting out of the car to visit the fruit stand. At the time the decision to let Peppers go--assuming that it was really a Packer decision--didn't look so bad, and it certainly fit with TT's development MO. But maybe it wasn't really the Packers' decision, maybe Peppers decided he wanted to play out his final season back home and he is now going out in style.

If that is the case, then its a thin hope. You have Fackrell and Biegel. One gets hurt then Brooks is signed. Just seems undermanned unless you are sure about Fackrell.

Pass rush is about the QB as much as beating your man. If the QB has to move, then EVERYONE's pass rush gets better and easier.

[pbmax]

Better team also helps. It's still on Capers and TT.

There is no doubt the lack of pass rush hurts and that is mostly on Thompson.

[Maxie the Taxi]

... on third down the opposing QB will have all day and all night to throw, unless Capers rushes five or six, in which case the opposing team seems to know it's coming, and so screen plays go for fifteen or twenty yards.Not only does the opposition seem to know what's coming, but from where as well. When Dom sent all the dogs up the middle, Detroit ran a screen to the outside and game over.

[Fritz]

Yes. And on Ted's shoulders lies the very big mistake of wasting a third round pick on Fackrell. That guy is as effective as a sack of potatoes thrown onto the field. Frankly, Rollins, too, was a terrible pick. And Datone Jones.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yes. And on Ted's shoulders lies the very big mistake of wasting a third round pick on Fackrell. That guy is as effective as a sack of potatoes thrown onto the field. Frankly, Rollins, too, was a terrible pick. And Datone Jones.I actually liked the Fackrell selection. I guess I was persuaded by the glowing scouting reports. I'm hoping he'll make strides next year after he puts some weight room time in.

[hoosier]

Yes. And on Ted's shoulders lies the very big mistake of wasting a third round pick on Fackrell. That guy is as effective as a sack of potatoes thrown onto the field. Frankly, Rollins, too, was a terrible pick. And Datone Jones.

Don't forget Jerel Worthy and Rich Rod. They have all turned out to be bad picks, but in order to decide whether or not that is a strike against TT you'd have to look at how his drafts have compared to those of other teams. My intuition is that his bust rate is better than average (fewer busts) but that in recent years his "home runs" have been few and far between. Is that because the Packers are drafting toward the end of each round, or because the don't develop talent, or because the schemes they use are inadequate, or because TT hasn't been able to put together the right balance between position units? If you believe that the primary problem with the defense is lack of pass rush then the lion's share of the blame would seem to fall on TT for ignoring the positional straw that stirs the defensive drink. That might also explain why guys like Hayward and Hyde have had immediate success after leaving. Except that on paper San Diego's pass rush was no better than Green Bay's last year, so not clear that pass rush explains everything.

[mraynrand]

virtually no one on the defense looks aggressive. They all look like they're playing on their heels, afraid to make a mistake. Maybe Jones and Daniels when he's not being an idiot are consistently aggressive. But it's not enough.

[Freak Out]

Thank you Mailman! Fire him now.

[ND72]

I have supported Thompson, because I think he does a pretty good job...now when you're a draft only type of team you better strike it rich, and since we haven't, and he's lacked signing free agents, it gets us to where we are today.

I have long not been a fan of either McCarthy or Capers. Even the super bowl year I brought up numerous issues I had with each. You can go through the draft picks all the way back to JUSTIN HARRELL and place blame on Thompson, but the fact is that it isn't just Thompson who makes those picks, he works hand in hand with the coaches who also make evaluations on those picks. Any good team doesn't just have the GM pick whom ever he wants, he works with scouts and coaches. The thing is who has really developed? Daniels? Clark? Burnett? Dix has fallen off this year. Matthews is still OK, but obviously isn't who he once was, and age and injuries has a lot to do with that. Perry....I want to love him, but he kind of is who he is, last year was almost a fluke. Martinez is looking nice, Ryan should be one of those develop guys who hasn't. Rollins and Randall have disappointed. Jones has huge potential. I was a big fan of King, but am seeing flaws in him that need coaching...but I'm not sure if he's getting the coaching to improve. Lowry has improved, but his ceiling was rather low to start with. My hope is Adams and Biegel start to get some snaps and show signs of life, because we need it.

Capers has to go. Radio today they said if you believe it's the players, then it's on Thompson. If you believe it's the scheme, it's on Capers. I believe it's the scheme.

Oh, anyone else catch this from Matthew Stafford last night? Matthew Stafford, “We had some success because we knew what blitz’s or which blitz’s would be coming, especially on third down. The screen that almost went for the touchdown, we went to the line with 3 plays. If they were doing a middle blitz, which they did, we ran the screen. If they ran a slot blitz, we were running a bubble, if they weren’t running any, we had another play in mind. When they blitz the middle, they’ll drop one of their safeties close to the line, typically Dix because in dime or Nickel Burnett is usually up already anyway, for middle protection. If they brought their slot guy, they would slide Martinez over to cover for his blitz. So when Dix slid down, and both Perry & Matthew slid into an inside gap, we knew exactly what blitz was coming. That happened on almost all our 3rd down plays tonight.”

[woodbuck27]

TT and MM have Dom Capers in place as the Packer DC. That and for way too long. Wist43 has always been right.

I have been right.

FIRE ALL THREE Of Them !

https://jurisdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/youre+fired.jpg

[Fritz]

I have supported Thompson, because I think he does a pretty good job...now when you're a draft only type of team you better strike it rich, and since we haven't, and he's lacked signing free agents, it gets us to where we are today.

I have long not been a fan of either McCarthy or Capers. Even the super bowl year I brought up numerous issues I had with each. You can go through the draft picks all the way back to JUSTIN HARRELL and place blame on Thompson, but the fact is that it isn't just Thompson who makes those picks, he works hand in hand with the coaches who also make evaluations on those picks. Any good team doesn't just have the GM pick whom ever he wants, he works with scouts and coaches. The thing is who has really developed? Daniels? Clark? Burnett? Dix has fallen off this year. Matthews is still OK, but obviously isn't who he once was, and age and injuries has a lot to do with that. Perry....I want to love him, but he kind of is who he is, last year was almost a fluke. Martinez is looking nice, Ryan should be one of those develop guys who hasn't. Rollins and Randall have disappointed. Jones has huge potential. I was a big fan of King, but am seeing flaws in him that need coaching...but I'm not sure if he's getting the coaching to improve. Lowry has improved, but his ceiling was rather low to start with. My hope is Adams and Biegel start to get some snaps and show signs of life, because we need it.

Capers has to go. Radio today they said if you believe it's the players, then it's on Thompson. If you believe it's the scheme, it's on Capers. I believe it's the scheme.

Oh, anyone else catch this from Matthew Stafford last night? Matthew Stafford, “We had some success because we knew what blitz’s or which blitz’s would be coming, especially on third down. The screen that almost went for the touchdown, we went to the line with 3 plays. If they were doing a middle blitz, which they did, we ran the screen. If they ran a slot blitz, we were running a bubble, if they weren’t running any, we had another play in mind. When they blitz the middle, they’ll drop one of their safeties close to the line, typically Dix because in dime or Nickel Burnett is usually up already anyway, for middle protection. If they brought their slot guy, they would slide Martinez over to cover for his blitz. So when Dix slid down, and both Perry & Matthew slid into an inside gap, we knew exactly what blitz was coming. That happened on almost all our 3rd down plays tonight.”

That is damning of Capers, absolutely.

But Matt needs to learn that you don't make words plural by adding an apostrophe.

[ND72]

That is damning of Capers, absolutely.

But Matt needs to learn that you don't make words plural by adding an apostrophe.

That would be my awesome autocorrect that never knows what it's doing.

[The Shadow]

Give Capers his Papers!

[The Shadow]

The Answer is Blowin' in the Cheese (Seems appropriate again)

How many years can this team disappoint
Before some changes are made?
How many times can our hopes fly high
Before their allowed to fade?
How many times will our dreams wind up
Like the career of Mossy Cade?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the cheese
The answer is blowin' in the cheese.

How many times can McCarthy waste a great QB
Is it bad luck, coaching or fate?
How many DB's does Capers need
Before they can com-mun-i-cate?
How many times will we under achieve
Before it's time to cut bait?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the cheese
The answer is blowin' in the cheese.

[Zool]

https://i.redd.it/f10rj96h5lwz.png

[Fritz]

Fire Dom now!

Not sure what they've got to lose. I think the game - and many opposing quarterbacks - have passed him by. Or by him.

[esoxx]

I've been off the Capers train since 579!

[woodbuck27]

wist43...wist43...wist43...wist43...wist43...wist4 3...wist43...wist43...wist43

Pay attention to common sense.

[yetisnowman]

I've been on the Fire Capers bandwagon since last year. There is talent on this defense. I don't think it's being coached up.

Is there though? Where exactly is this talent you speak of? Now maybe the complexity and nuance of the system don't fit the kind of players we keep drafting. And that's an entire separate issue, maddening in its own right.
But this defense is simply not talented. As a DC how do you implement an effective defense with a front 7 that doesn't get pressure, and DBS that rarely win individual matchups. Slow, timid, flat footed, soft players all over the field. Us Anti-Teds were right, and we've been saying it for years. This team has been competive and a contender almost exclusively because they have the greatest qb of all time who pulls miracles out of his ass and makes plays and throws no one else can.
I feel confident saying that if you removed every starting qb from every team and evaluated each roster, the Packers would be bottom 3 or 4 talent wise.

[MadScientist]

I've been off the Capers train since 579!

579 is about 4 games worth of Hundley.


Oh, anyone else catch this from Matthew Stafford last night? Matthew Stafford, “We had some success because we knew what blitz’s or which blitz’s would be coming, especially on third down. The screen that almost went for the touchdown, we went to the line with 3 plays. If they were doing a middle blitz, which they did, we ran the screen. If they ran a slot blitz, we were running a bubble, if they weren’t running any, we had another play in mind. When they blitz the middle, they’ll drop one of their safeties close to the line, typically Dix because in dime or Nickel Burnett is usually up already anyway, for middle protection. If they brought their slot guy, they would slide Martinez over to cover for his blitz. So when Dix slid down, and both Perry & Matthew slid into an inside gap, we knew exactly what blitz was coming. That happened on almost all our 3rd down plays tonight.”

That is one hell of an indictment of Capers. Maybe if they don't want to fire him now, Don de don don can come up with some sort of health issue that will sideline him for the year and then let him slide into retirement (and take TT with him). I'm not quite ready to give up on MM yet, but I might be there by the end of the season.

[Sparkey]

https://cms.splendidtable.org/sites/default/files/styles/w2000/public/capers.jpg

[Sparkey]

In a Capers defense, not the dish posted above, it all starts with the OLB.

What does Green Bay have there ?

[Pugger]

I have supported Thompson, because I think he does a pretty good job...now when you're a draft only type of team you better strike it rich, and since we haven't, and he's lacked signing free agents, it gets us to where we are today.

I have long not been a fan of either McCarthy or Capers. Even the super bowl year I brought up numerous issues I had with each. You can go through the draft picks all the way back to JUSTIN HARRELL and place blame on Thompson, but the fact is that it isn't just Thompson who makes those picks, he works hand in hand with the coaches who also make evaluations on those picks. Any good team doesn't just have the GM pick whom ever he wants, he works with scouts and coaches. The thing is who has really developed? Daniels? Clark? Burnett? Dix has fallen off this year. Matthews is still OK, but obviously isn't who he once was, and age and injuries has a lot to do with that. Perry....I want to love him, but he kind of is who he is, last year was almost a fluke. Martinez is looking nice, Ryan should be one of those develop guys who hasn't. Rollins and Randall have disappointed. Jones has huge potential. I was a big fan of King, but am seeing flaws in him that need coaching...but I'm not sure if he's getting the coaching to improve. Lowry has improved, but his ceiling was rather low to start with. My hope is Adams and Biegel start to get some snaps and show signs of life, because we need it.

Capers has to go. Radio today they said if you believe it's the players, then it's on Thompson. If you believe it's the scheme, it's on Capers. I believe it's the scheme.

Oh, anyone else catch this from Matthew Stafford last night? Matthew Stafford, “We had some success because we knew what blitz’s or which blitz’s would be coming, especially on third down. The screen that almost went for the touchdown, we went to the line with 3 plays. If they were doing a middle blitz, which they did, we ran the screen. If they ran a slot blitz, we were running a bubble, if they weren’t running any, we had another play in mind. When they blitz the middle, they’ll drop one of their safeties close to the line, typically Dix because in dime or Nickel Burnett is usually up already anyway, for middle protection. If they brought their slot guy, they would slide Martinez over to cover for his blitz. So when Dix slid down, and both Perry & Matthew slid into an inside gap, we knew exactly what blitz was coming. That happened on almost all our 3rd down plays tonight.”

I do too. There is talent on this team but we are becoming too predictable on defense. I too am on the Fire Capers train.

[Pugger]

Fire Dom now!

Not sure what they've got to lose. I think the game - and many opposing quarterbacks - have passed him by. Or by him.

We have to let Dom stay on for a while longer so we tank the rest of the season and get a high draft position for the first time since we drafted Raji and Clay. ;-)

[woodbuck27]

I do too. There is talent on this team but we are becoming too predictable on defense. I too am on the Fire Capers train.

Ohh my God Thanks, Thank You .... for small miracles: Finally..... ' the Voice of decent REASONING'. :-)

:wave:

[Pugger]

In a Capers defense, not the dish posted above, it all starts with the OLB.

What does Green Bay have there ?

A banged up - as always - Nick Perry.
An over the hill Clay Matthews. Clay can be effective but it is past time that he should be an every down pass rusher.
An ineffective Fackrell.
A FA in Brooks who could have helped us but has a bad back and has been out for weeks.

[woodbuck27]

We have to let Dom stay on for a while longer so we tank the rest of the season and get a high draft position for the first time since we drafted Raji and Clay. ;-)

NO NO NO Way !

Your 'only' giving it some small chance that he will be retained in'THE PACKER FAMILY'.

It's just this ASAP:

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAfUAAAAJGNkOThlZTk5LWZiMGYtNGI1Zi1hZD JjLTE4MDU5MmMzM2IxZQ.jpg

[Pugger]

Ohh my God Thanks, Thank You .... for small miracles: Finally..... ' the Voice of decent REASONING'. :-)

:wave:

Let's hope McCarthy gets on the Fire Capers train in January. :D

[Pugger]

NO NO NO Way !

Your 'only' giving it some small chance that he will be retained in'THE PACKER FAMILY'.

It's just this ASAP:

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAfUAAAAJGNkOThlZTk5LWZiMGYtNGI1Zi1hZD JjLTE4MDU5MmMzM2IxZQ.jpg

If we tank and have the worst defense in the league at the end of the season there is no way in hell Capers job is secure.

[woodbuck27]

A banged up - as always - Nick Perry.
An over the hill Clay Matthews. Clay can be effective but it is past time that he should be an every down pass rusher.
An ineffective Fackrell.
A FA in Brooks who could have helped us but has a bad back and has been out for weeks.

Nope !

This is the REAL and TOTAL Answer FIRE DOM and Mike McCarthy and Certainly FIRE Ted Thompson he has tried and tried and tried for too long now and simply failing Packer Nation.

It's time for a brand new set of Packer Brass.

Take the OLD and Tired and BULLSHIT and Burn it UP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8D4AsLzlM0

[woodbuck27]

The Green Bay Packers are on a 'Ride To Nowhere' and have neen right there since their last Super Bowl win.

It is clearly time for a Brand New PLAN.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0

[Tony Oday]

MM and Capers need to be gone. Along with TT.

[QBME]

MM and Capers need to be gone. Along with TT.

You're suggesting a complete organizational rebuilding from top to bottom? (Might as well throw Mark Murphy in there as well.)

Actually, come to think of it, what responsibility does Murphy bear - hanging his hat on an individual player and not ciphering the potential problems at GM and coaching?

[ZachMN]

My opinion is that TT and the scouting is below average on evaluating. No team is without sin but I see other teams week after week on highlights with more going on Defensively. It may seem counter intuitive but in my eyes I would always draft solid D linemen as they will make every other d position better. And living in Mpls I see the 'queens reload with new talent all the time so how can we not find even one guy who can rush the passer consistently? Our D does the same old bull rush play after play after play and the opposing qb's sit there and pick us apart game after game.. I thought Capers was the architect of the Pittsburgh D with stunts? I have seen that rarely from this team....Capers is doing what M3 wants him to do... I hate to pick on Capers but he is symptomatic of M3 and TT. Have to cut all the cancer out. Start fresh.

[George Cumby]

Choo mutha’ fuckin’ Choo!

[Pugger]

If we indeed clean house I hope we find a OC that runs the same offense Mac has installed all this time. Rodgers is so good he could adjust but could the rest of the offensive players or should we make wholesale changes there too?

[Pugger]

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/a-look-at-the-numbers-dom-capers-has-to-go-255

[beveaux1]

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/a-look-at-the-numbers-dom-capers-has-to-go-255

I've been waffling about whether our DC needs to be replaced. On one hand, the results are in black and white. We see it every week. Either our pass defense gives up big play after big play, or we play 2 deep and the opposing offense nickels and dimes us to death. Our run defense is a sieve when we play decent pass defense, or it holds strong and we can't stop a 3rd and 14 pass.

But, we need to put this into context. Patler provided some excellent analysis when he said:


It's not just Shields.

Losing a guy like Collins so early in his career, when he was Pro-Bowl caliber and still ascending, hurt the defense for not only the years he would have played, but also for the missed opportunities with players at other positions as they tried to find his replacement. Would they have still drafted HHCD with Collins and Burnett on their roster? Who might they have drafted instead? Collins could be playing still today. He just turned 34.

Whether due to injuries or something else, Matthews career as a dominant player lasted just 4, maybe 6 years. Players of the type he was his first 4 years typically dominate for 8-10 years or so and are better than average for a while after that. They often have very long careers, especially when they have the rare combination of size, speed and strength that Matthews has. Only in his 9th year now, it has been a long time since he has worried OCs around the league.

Collins was the best player on defense when he was lost. Matthews was for a short time, then faded away very young. Shields was or could have been the best on defense, then he, too was lost. As a result there has been no one to build around. No one to rely on year after year. The defense has never established a foundation. Their best players never last for an expected career length. That is why the defense is constantly changing. It has had to.

Add in the seasonal injuries that we seem to always be facing, and I think that better explains the average to below average results.

On the other hand, defensive coordinators don't usually hold that job for as long as Capers has. If Stafford actually said that the Lions knew what plays the Packers were running, and some Packers players have said in interviews that it seemed like the Lions knew exactly what plays to dial up, then perhaps too much film is out there on our tendencies. It might be better to see if we can change things up by bringing in someone from outside the organization. It might also be better to see if someone else can coach some of the good players we have into what might be called a "special" player. With 2 or 3 of those, next year might look like 2010.

[mission]

Some of you guys are so apologetic it's almost impossible to come here and read some of these posts anymore.

If this is an injury thing or a lack of talent thing, then how can a new DC come in with a team and all of a sudden they're playing much better? Coaches don't matter at all? Just in general, how does Goff go from a bust to leading the best offense in the league? How is Heyward one of the best CBs in the league two consecutive years after leaving GB? How is Hyde leading the league in INTs? Peppers looks like he's 10 years younger all of a sudden? I'm sure just coincidence!

Think Capers is a capable coach? Watch this: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/928050831152345089

[pbmax]

According to Gruden it was obvious 2 man that was the problem.

Its not the scheme. All schemes are vulnerable to something. There is either an area or numbers mismatch in anything but the most vanilla scheme. And the most vanilla scheme is vulnerable to offenses forcing it to do something its players can't do.

The problem is construction. Everything Capers does is to prevent big plays and get turnovers. To do that with his schemes he needs pressure. There ain't no pressure. Even when blitzing there is not immediate pressure.

If you are going to play this way (and not having a pass rush is kinda limiting) you need to creep up and play tight coverage, risk a big play, and give your front and blitzes time to GET pressure. They have tried bleeding slowly and they are close to passing out anyway.

[King Friday]

I think Capers, in his day, was a very good coach. At this point, he's past his prime. He doesn't have the same energy now that he had 10 or 20 years ago. I don't blame Capers for holding on...the ego and ethic that these coaches all have to get where they are in their careers is what prevents most of them from walking away when they should.

It should be McCarthy's place to step in and ensure that Capers doesn't merely become a tenured faculty member...but McCarthy has proven time and again that he is loyal to a fault with most of his coaches and players.

[mraynrand]

Not only does the opposition seem to know what's coming, but from where as well. When Dom sent all the dogs up the middle, Detroit ran a screen to the outside and game over.

I think the pass for the long screen went directly over Daniels who was on the ground. I haven't had a chance to look back and see how he was taken out of the play, but that was key it seemed.

[Smidgeon]

I've been waffling about whether our DC needs to be replaced. On one hand, the results are in black and white. We see it every week. Either our pass defense gives up big play after big play, or we play 2 deep and the opposing offense nickels and dimes us to death. Our run defense is a sieve when we play decent pass defense, or it holds strong and we can't stop a 3rd and 14 pass.

But, we need to put this into context. Patler provided some excellent analysis when he said:



Add in the seasonal injuries that we seem to always be facing, and I think that better explains the average to below average results.

On the other hand, defensive coordinators don't usually hold that job for as long as Capers has. If Stafford actually said that the Lions knew what plays the Packers were running, and some Packers players have said in interviews that it seemed like the Lions knew exactly what plays to dial up, then perhaps too much film is out there on our tendencies. It might be better to see if we can change things up by bringing in someone from outside the organization. It might also be better to see if someone else can coach some of the good players we have into what might be called a "special" player. With 2 or 3 of those, next year might look like 2010.

When I watched the last game Romo called (don't remember which), he was often calling plays ahead of time. If he knows it, then the defensive stars know it too. It's just a matter of execution or playing against your own tendencies. It makes me think from film study that most players can guess the plays based on personnel and field position (Charles Woodson was exceptional at this), and success is based on "beating your guy".

[pbmax]

More I think about pass rush the more it’s clear that the failure of personnel is not on D line but OLB.

[Fosco33]

I liked Hayward and Hyde. This year feels like we're missing Burnett with injury given the adjustments required in Doms D.

But I've also been on record that Clay seems overpaid for value.

Is this another Hayward/Hyde/Peppers situation in the making - ie - we drop Clay and he goes onto former greatness on another team?

Time to fire Dom and let the new guy sort it out.

If the Bears beat us up and down the field - TT better make that happen or it's time for a rebuild while we still have Arod near prime.

[Smidgeon]

I liked Hayward and Hyde. This year feels like we're missing Burnett with injury given the adjustments required in Doms D.

But I've also been on record that Clay seems overpaid for value.

Is this another Hayward/Hyde/Peppers situation in the making - ie - we drop Clay and he goes onto former greatness on another team?

Time to fire Dom and let the new guy sort it out.

If the Bears beat us up and down the field - TT better make that happen or it's time for a rebuild while we still have Arod near prime.

I worry the new guy won't be able to sort it out. Not because the talent isn't there, but because there are few D coordinators who are consistently good. Finding the next one is likely impossible.

[Bossman641]

Think Capers is a capable coach? Watch this: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/928050831152345089

Why in the world is Josh Jones playing so deep?

[mraynrand]

Some of you guys are so apologetic it's almost impossible to come here and read some of these posts anymore.

If this is an injury thing or a lack of talent thing, then how can a new DC come in with a team and all of a sudden they're playing much better? Coaches don't matter at all? Just in general, how does Goff go from a bust to leading the best offense in the league? How is Heyward one of the best CBs in the league two consecutive years after leaving GB? How is Hyde leading the league in INTs? Peppers looks like he's 10 years younger all of a sudden? I'm sure just coincidence!

Think Capers is a capable coach? Watch this: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/928050831152345089


that's a awful play. But look at the line. The pressure is totally non-existant. Matthews gets blocked STRAIGHT UP by a running back who then MOVES him into a double team with an O-lineman. Clay should have been able to run over the running back, but played dancing bear. If Clay runs over the running back - or at the very least gains leverage to one shoulder, he would significantly re-direct Stafford. The coverage is poor, but the pressure is a mess. What the hell happened to Matthews' aggressiveness?

[Gotarace]

that's a awful play. But look at the line. The pressure is totally non-existant. Matthews gets blocked STRAIGHT UP by a running back who then MOVES him into a double team with an O-lineman. Clay should have been able to run over the running back, but played dancing bear. If Clay runs over the running back - or at the very least gains leverage to one shoulder, he would significantly re-direct Stafford. The coverage is poor, but the pressure is a mess. What the hell happened to Matthews' aggressiveness?

This is what happens when you're more worried about the bankroll instead of producing in a football role. I think Clay is more show than go anymore.

[Gotarace]

.....

[esoxx]

that's a awful play. But look at the line. The pressure is totally non-existant. Matthews gets blocked STRAIGHT UP by a running back who then MOVES him into a double team with an O-lineman. Clay should have been able to run over the running back, but played dancing bear. If Clay runs over the running back - or at the very least gains leverage to one shoulder, he would significantly re-direct Stafford. The coverage is poor, but the pressure is a mess. What the hell happened to Matthews' aggressiveness?

I think it's time to call in to question effort here. Not just Matthews but others as well. Sure, if Clay wanted to he could have put his shoulder down and bulled over the RB causing disruption to the play. But he didn't. Why? I bet if he was in Minn or on Carolina's D he wouldn't be giving up so easy. They get after it. We always seem to assume well they're dealing with an injury or it's the scheme. Effort is one thing that can really make the difference to play quality. Adams not laying out for that long pass is another example. Time to look in the mirror for a lot of people over at 1265.

[woodbuck27]

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/a-look-at-the-numbers-dom-capers-has-to-go-255

I'm concerned that Aaron Rodgers may not come back as strong as he was and that was Top Shelf STRONG.

It has to be a completely new set of Brass and Aaron Rodgers strong mind to work with.

It must be FIRE TT and MM and 'of course' Dom Capers; an NFL DC who simply cannot get it done with his Schemes. His days and NFL as a DC are likely over.

That TRIO is beyond too tired now. They have to go for 'any REAL chance with Aaron Rodgers'.

For too long too many Packerrats have been in denial and finally the Charade has been exposed. Without Aaron Rodgers we see UGLY.

Without Aaron Rodgers the Green Bay Packers are a bottom of the barrel NFL Team. The Packers weakness was covered up by the extraordinary talent of Aaron Rodgers.

The EXCUSES are now over and quite frankly too humourous to observe.

TT and MM and Dom Capers are clearly all an embarrassment to Packer Nation .

[woodbuck27]

This is what happens when you're more worried about the bankroll instead of producing in a football role. I think Clay is more show than go anymore.

Yes.

CM III is clearly another tiring act of 'disappearing way too often'.

[pbmax]

When I watched the last game Romo called (don't remember which), he was often calling plays ahead of time. If he knows it, then the defensive stars know it too. It's just a matter of execution or playing against your own tendencies. It makes me think from film study that most players can guess the plays based on personnel and field position (Charles Woodson was exceptional at this), and success is based on "beating your guy".

Smidgeon is again correct and the panicky masses over Stafford's comments are wrong.

1. Pre snap reads almost always reveal whether a team is playing man, or some combo. The Lions took this a step farther by putting someone in motion on almost every pass play. Rodgers does this all the time. Its nothing new.

2. Blitz. Capers likes to pressure on 3rd and long and Stafford said they expected 2 different kinds of pressure most often. Between motion and cadence, Stafford can make the D reveal the blitz as well if he has some play clock.

3. Capers himself said the playbook for the Lions game was thin because of communication issues they have when Burnett is out. They wanted to eliminate the mistakes.

So we are back to the oldest two critiques of this defense. Played with the full playbook, the team cannot function without its vets (and Burnett was lost in the first half). And left to their own devices, the players do not defeat and offenses passing game enough on third down.

[pbmax]

Why in the world is Josh Jones playing so deep?

He is a rookie and spent most of his time learning the Nitro (ILB) position.

[pbmax]

that's a awful play. But look at the line. The pressure is totally non-existant. Matthews gets blocked STRAIGHT UP by a running back who then MOVES him into a double team with an O-lineman. Clay should have been able to run over the running back, but played dancing bear. If Clay runs over the running back - or at the very least gains leverage to one shoulder, he would significantly re-direct Stafford. The coverage is poor, but the pressure is a mess. What the hell happened to Matthews' aggressiveness?

I don't know for certain but Matthews might have also had coverage on that back and was not free to pressure and ignore the back.

[pbmax]

Steelers are going on slightly different direction than blitz:

from: http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/keith-butler-explains-rushes-three/

In the accompanying article, the end zone screen shot is Steelers dropping two ILBs (Shazier and Watt) into coverage for an eight man zone. They had Lions so discombobulated that the Lions blocked 3 pass rushers with 7 guys. That is what I want to see happen in GB. The Pass D is eight versus 3. I like even the Packers' DBs in that scenario. Its red zone, so deep safeties aren't such a problem.



BY ALEX KOZORA NOVEMBER 10, 2017 AT 12:08 PM
It’s arguably the biggest source of frustration for Pittsburgh Steelers’ fans. Anytime Keith Butler sends three, check Twitter out and you’ll see a sea of hate. It’s something he did a ton in the last game against the Detroit Lions, constantly rushing just three against Matthew Stafford, to mixed results. Speaking with reporters yesterday, Butler explained why and when he likes to rush the minimum.

“If our coverage is good enough to make him hold the ball, where he gets to his back step, what we call a three step, five step, seven step drop by the quarterback, when he hits his back foot and lets the ball go, there’s not much you can do,” Butler said via Steelers.com. “So sometimes we rush three in that situation. And tighten the windows down in terms of zone defense to make the quarterback a little more limited. If he’s used to throwing on time or at a certain time, then that will mess him up.”

To sum up, it’s a change up to get the quarterback flustered. And while it’s been frustrating in pockets, like Butler’s insistence of using it on nearly the entire Lions’ final drive, it’s been extremely effective in the red zone. The windows that Butler spoke about are inherently tight without the threat of anything vertical and dropping eight makes it that much tougher.

The results, in the red zone at least, have been excellent.

[red]

this is all gotten bigger then just firing capers

national guys (not on the packers payroll), have started to come out and claim that the loss of rodgers has exposed MM and TT for the frauds they are

lebatard went so far as to say, if he was sitting on the sideline watching just how shitty the team and coaching staff is without him on the field, he would want to be traded in the offseason to an organization that would try and build a team around him, not just coast on his coat tails.

a lot of stuff i read on tuesday from all over the place, seemed a lot like what some of us have been saying on here for years

[woodbuck27]

this is all gotten bigger then just firing capers

national guys (not on the packers payroll), have started to come out and claim that the loss of rodgers has exposed MM and TT for the frauds they are

lebatard went so far as to say, if he was sitting on the sideline watching just how shitty the team and coaching staff is without him on the field, he would want to be traded in the offseason to an organization that would try and build a team around him, not just coast on his coat tails.

a lot of stuff i read on tuesday from all over the place, seemed a lot like what some of us have been saying on here for years

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

The Green Bay Packer BRASS is clearly a frustrating MESS !

The sad thing and 'a clear possibility':

It will not change. It will possibly throw DOM Capers under a bus but all in all we in Packer Nation are going to see TT and MM go on and on and on.

Eventually if Aaron Rodgers is SMART and still playing at a high level and 2020 rolls around and he hasn't already 'shaken their sillly ass tree'; and he becomes eligible as an UFA he gets out of Green Bay.

[denverYooper]

this is all gotten bigger then just firing capers

national guys (not on the packers payroll), have started to come out and claim that the loss of rodgers has exposed MM and TT for the frauds they are

lebatard went so far as to say, if he was sitting on the sideline watching just how shitty the team and coaching staff is without him on the field, he would want to be traded in the offseason to an organization that would try and build a team around him, not just coast on his coat tails.

a lot of stuff i read on tuesday from all over the place, seemed a lot like what some of us have been saying on here for years

So now everyone is overreacting. That's what sports media does.

[denverYooper]

"Frauds" is an overreaction.

They have been used to playing a certain way because they have the advantage of Rodgers applying a lot of extra pressure to the other team's offense as well as it's defense. Now they have to change. They are not just going to adjust their whole approach to the game in 2 games, bye week or not. Or at least they are not going to percolate that down into their gameplay that quickly. They have re-worked their approach at least some. My best guess is we are looking at a minimum 4 game burn-in.

That said, any approach has to involve the defense at least rattling the QB once in a while. Yeesh.

[woodbuck27]

Other Teams FIRE their DC during the Season:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000882266/article/pagano-on-raiders-defense-always-room-for-change

Pagano on Raiders defense: 'Always room for change'

By: Jeremy Bergman NFL.com

Published: Nov. 24, 2017 at 09:46 a.m. Updated: Nov. 24, 2017 at 10:03 a.m.


" ...After spending half of a season as an assistant head coach/defense in Oakland, John Pagano was "promoted" this week to defensive coordinator after the Raiders fired Ken Norton Jr.

A longtime defensive coordinator for the then-San Diego Chargers, Pagano will be charged with accomplishing the improbable, if not the impossible, in the final six weeks of the season in East Bay: Giving Oakland's porous defense a face lift, a makeover and a 180 in time for the playoffs.

In his first meeting with the Bay Area media Thursday, the coach of nearly three decades was confident that the Raiders could pull it off.

"There's always room for change and there's always room for doing things better," Pagano said Thursday. "Without telling you our game plan, it's about how we go out and execute the call, bottom line." ... "

Comment woodbuck27:

wist43...wist43...wist43...wist43........:huh:

[Pugger]

I don't recall McCarthy ever firing an assistant during the season so I don't think anyone will get the axe until January.

[woodbuck27]

I don't recall McCarthy ever firing an assistant during the season so I don't think anyone will get the axe until January.

Mike McCarthy needs a lot of time to think:

A.........lot..........of..........TIME ! :-)

[Joemailman]

Still on the bandwagon. Injuries in the secondary are a legitimate issue right now, but this defense can't stop the run. I'm afraid that will kill them next week at Carolina. The calls for Dom's head will intensify.

[pbmax]

After again being able to breathe not down two scores to the Browns, here is the problem Capers is trying to solve.

So many banged up corners and he either has rookies or safeties playing coverage as CBs. He wants to play zone to help them and bring a number of different people up to the line to pressure the QB.

Packers zones, despite progress in getting players who can play it, is a very mixed bag. But without it, Capers doesn't want to put single safety or Cover 0 (zero deep safeties) out there and blitz. So no pressure defeats even the best zone coverages they come up with.

So his solution after two big plays against zone yesterday was some form of Cover 2 man under.

The problem with both is that he has Dix at least and sometimes the other safety (Jones now) playing really deep. 20 yards off the ball in passing downs with substantial yards to go. The reason they do this is called Whitehead. As in, with Whitehead out there against a TE (think Tampa game) giving up a touchdown down the seam with no one available to help.

To recap:
1. No corners
2. Poor zone and man to man matchups
3. Deep safeties
4. Pass rush, or lack thereof. (thanks to Pugger)

You solve one of those, then the defense can be reconstituted. The best bet is to forget Whitehead and Burnett as corners, throw the rookies out there and let CBs cover and safeties do some damage elsewhere.

[Pugger]

After again being able to breathe not down two scores to the Browns, here is the problem Capers is trying to solve.

So many banged up corners and he either has rookies or safeties playing coverage as CBs. He wants to play zone to help them and bring a number of different people up to the line to pressure the QB.

Packers zones, despite progress in getting players who can play it, is a very mixed bag. But without it, Capers doesn't want to put single safety or Cover 0 (zero deep safeties) out there and blitz. So no pressure defeats even the best zone coverages they come up with.

So his solution after two big plays against zone yesterday was some form of Cover 2 man under.

The problem with both is that he has Dix at least and sometimes the other safety (Jones now) playing really deep. 20 yards off the ball in passing downs with substantial yards to go. The reason they do this is called Whitehead. As in, with Whitehead out there against a TE (think Tampa game) giving up a touchdown down the seam with no one available to help.

To recap:
1. No corners
2. Poor zone and man to man matchups
3. Deep safeties

You solve one of those, then the defense can be reconstituted. The best bet is to forget Whitehead and Burnett as corners, throw the rookies out there and let CBs cover and safeties do some damage elsewhere.

It also doesn't help to have a lousy pass rush. You give any QB with any skills time back there like we did yesterday he'll look like an All-Pro instead of the hack he actually is. :sad:

[Teamcheez1]

Oh, so that explains the last 5 years........

[mraynrand]

The season hinges on Rodger's shoulder healing and coaching Pipkins up to pro bowl corner status. Seems possible.

[pbmax]

It also doesn't help to have a lousy pass rush. You give any QB with any skills time back there like we did yesterday he'll look like an All-Pro instead of the hack he actually is. :sad:

Correct. That should have been #4. Perry back helps. But I actually think a rookie CB contributing is more likely to help overall.

But its also possible Pipkins and D Brown look like a concussed Damarious Randall in practice.

[pbmax]

Oh, so that explains the last 5 years........

Last five years Football Outsiders ranks (Defense/Offense)
2016 20/4
2015 9/11
2014 16/1 (I would contest this one as by the end of the year, see Seattle playoff game, the Defense was outplaying the Offense)
2013 31/9
2012 8/3

2 years the Defense was Top 10. Another year it was more than playing well enough to win in playoffs.

The consistent issue has been pass rush, made much worse by the loss of Shields.

[Fritz]

The season hinges on Rodger's shoulder healing and coaching Pipkins up to pro bowl corner status. Seems possible.


What I glean from the reading I've done is that Capers/MM like the talent the rookie CB's have well enough, but don't think they have a big-picture understanding of what the defensive plan is designed to do, and so can't be trusted not to bust a coverage and give up the easy TD.

I suppose there's no room for error, so I understand playing it safe with the safeties playing corner, but I'd be tempted to go with the talent over the understanding, and hope the understanding catches up - fast.

[hoosier]

Last five years Football Outsiders ranks (Defense/Offense)
2016 20/4
2015 9/11
2014 16/1 (I would contest this one as by the end of the year, see Seattle playoff game, the Defense was outplaying the Offense)
2013 31/9
2012 8/3

2 years the Defense was Top 10. Another year it was more than playing well enough to win in playoffs.

The consistent issue has been pass rush, made much worse by the loss of Shields.

I see two consistent issues: pass rush and receivers roaming free in the secondary. Even when the D has had a pass rush (think 2009) we saw communication problems in the secondary. Not every week like now but against teams that knew how to create confusion through motion and stacking (Pittsburgh, Arizona in WC game).

[Tony Oday]

I'm done with Capers, if we win the SB this year on defense alone I would still want him fired.

[pbmax]

I am curious if this kind of Jekyll and Micah Hyde performance is indicative of teams without a superstar/blue-chipper/field-tilter in the old Cliff Christl vein.

Matthews is only occasionally his old self, Collins is gone as is Shields. The two guys most likely to be the hinge that the defense moves around, King and Jones, are injured and being forced to play back respectively. And both are rookies.

Perhaps the problem with drafting late and not hitting it out of the park in later rounds is that you are missing one big time All Pro around which you arrange your other, less imposing parts.

Or am I being Captain Obvious too?

[Teamcheez1]

I am curious if this kind of Jekyll and Micah Hyde performance is indicative of teams without a superstar/blue-chipper/field-tilter in the old Cliff Christl vein.

Matthews is only occasionally his old self, Collins is gone as is Shields. The two guys most likely to be the hinge that the defense moves around, King and Jones, are injured and being forced to play back respectively. And both are rookies.

Perhaps the problem with drafting late and not hitting it out of the park in later rounds is that you are missing one big time All Pro around which you arrange your other, less imposing parts.

Or am I being Captain Obvious too?

There's probably some truth to this. Watching the Steelers/Ravens last night, it was very noticeable how much the Steelers missed Shazier at LB.

[pbmax]

There's probably some truth to this. Watching the Steelers/Ravens last night, it was very noticeable how much the Steelers missed Shazier at LB.

If I was a Steelers fan, I would want to know how you allow the Packers to score 28 with Shazier?

Wilde is taking the Browns game as evidence of the Packers true talent level without Rodgers (possibly not much better than the Browns) and regards the Steelers game as the exception.

Which is dumb. They both count. The head coach versus the Steelers had a better gameplan (and I did not mean simple aggressiveness, but an expectation for players to make a play) than he did for the Browns. When he opened it up in Cleveland, suddenly players were making plays, even Hundley.

[Joemailman]

If I was a Steelers fan, I would want to know how you allow the Packers to score 28 with Shazier?

Wilde is taking the Browns game as evidence of the Packers true talent level without Rodgers (possibly not much better than the Browns) and regards the Steelers game as the exception.

Which is dumb. They both count. The head coach versus the Steelers had a better gameplan (and I did not mean simple aggressiveness, but an expectation for players to make a play) than he did for the Browns. When he opened it up in Cleveland, suddenly players were making plays, even Hundley.

They do both count. MM said today the Browns game graded out as one of the worst of the season. I'm sure that was not the case with the Steelers game.

[red]

Last five years Football Outsiders ranks (Defense/Offense)
2016 20/4
2015 9/11
2014 16/1 (I would contest this one as by the end of the year, see Seattle playoff game, the Defense was outplaying the Offense)
2013 31/9
2012 8/3

2 years the Defense was Top 10. Another year it was more than playing well enough to win in playoffs.

The consistent issue has been pass rush, made much worse by the loss of Shields.

i would say, CONSITANT pass rush

we're very hit or miss, either we get to the QB, or we get no pressure at all and the guy gets all day to throw

its not like the reggie white sean jones days when the pressure was gonna be there on almost every single play

gotta make QB's jumpy and think they're gonna get drilled on every single pass, not just 5% of the time or whatever it is

thats what i see with the pass rush

[Rutnstrut]

So when is what was accomplished in the past not enough to keep stubby off the hot seat?

[mraynrand]

i would say, CONSITANT pass rush

we're very hit or miss, either we get to the QB, or we get no pressure at all and the guy gets all day to throw

its not like the reggie white sean jones days when the pressure was gonna be there on almost every single play

gotta make QB's jumpy and think they're gonna get drilled on every single pass, not just 5% of the time or whatever it is

thats what i see with the pass rush

Sure, I think we'd all like to have the number one scoring defense in football like in 1996. Let's start here: Who is the current Reggie White, and how do the Packers acquire him?

[denverYooper]

Sure, I think we'd all like to have the number one scoring defense in football like in 1996. Let's start here: Who is the current Reggie White, and how do the Packers acquire him?

It would have to be JJ Watt, right? His main problem these days is he can't stay on the field.

[beveaux1]

So when is what was accomplished in the past not enough to keep stubby off the hot seat?

Realistically, it’s not anytime soon. He has coached for 11 years prior to this year. He’s made 9 playoff appearances using 2 different HOF type QBs, including 8 appearances in a row. His teams have had one season with a losing record (Rodgers first starting season). His teams have reached the NFC championship game 3 times and have reached the Super Bowl another time.

He was quoted once saying that he is a very successful NFL coach and that is really an understatement.

In GBP history, he is probably the third most successful coach of all time behind Lombardi and Lambeau.

My guess is that he will coach in Green Bay until he has at least 3 losing seasons in a row, or until TT is retired and Murphy has given the new GM carte blanche to hire his own head coach.

Capers, on the other hand, may not be as protected as McCarthy.

[beveaux1]

This is a pretty good article summing up this defense's problems.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/by-the-numbers/2017/12/13/16767202/packers-worst-situational-defense-in-nfl-dom-capers-2017

[Teamcheez1]

This is a pretty good article summing up this defense's problems.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/by-the-numbers/2017/12/13/16767202/packers-worst-situational-defense-in-nfl-dom-capers-2017

Shows you how the DVOA rankings don't add up to a lot when the game really matters.

[mraynrand]

This is a pretty good article summing up this defense's problems.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/by-the-numbers/2017/12/13/16767202/packers-worst-situational-defense-in-nfl-dom-capers-2017

the gist seems the defense has no outstanding playmakers, yet they are too good to be as bad as they are. But schematically, Capers should be able to overcome the shortfall in playmakers.

OK, fine. Now tell me how. They didn't give one example of what the Packers should do differently. They just asserted, with statistics, that they suck.

What's the answer? Just one example.

[Smidgeon]

the gist seems the defense has no outstanding playmakers, yet they are too good to be as bad as they are. But schematically, Capers should be able to overcome the shortfall in playmakers.

OK, fine. Now tell me how. They didn't give one example of what the Packers should do differently. They just asserted, with statistics, that they suck.

What's the answer? Just one example.

I'm not convinced the game has passed Capers by in terms of Xs and Os. I do wonder if the Packers defensive staff (top to bottom including Capers) is gifted enough at getting the players to play the Xs and Os they are supposed to (communication errors/breakdowns/etc). It's obviously not a practice time issue as every team has to play by the same CBA rules (except the Seahawks apparently).

EDIT: In other words, the Packers need a defensive staff (top to bottom) that is as skilled as the offensive staff at getting their players ready for Sunday.

[SMBASS]

#Packers defense is 32nd in RZ Scoring Efficiency... Allowing 100%

Coincidently, Packers finished 32nd in this last year... Allowing 95.6%

No team has allowed 100% in RZ Scoring since the 2008 Buccaneers...
— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) December 14, 2017

[SMBASS]

#Packer DC Dom Capers regular season QB Rating allowed...

Least: 67.2 (2010)
Most: 95.9 (2013 & 2016)

This year... 98.2 QB Rating
— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) December 13, 2017

[SMBASS]

Ben Fennell @BenFennell_NFL

Pass Plays of 10+yds Allowed...

1. JAX 83
2. PIT 93

31. TEN 139
32. GB 141

11:07 AM - Dec 6, 2017

[SMBASS]

Ben Fennell @BenFennell_NFL

#Packers Defensive Issues... Getting off the field.

Scoring Efficiency - 39.9% (31st)
RZ Scoring Efficiency - 100% (32nd)

3rd Down Conversions - 44.4% (30th)
3rd Down Completion % - 69.7% (32nd)
10 Play Drives - 28 (31st)
5 Minute Drives - 24 (32nd)

8:37 PM - Dec 11, 2017

[SMBASS]

Michael Cohen ‏@Michael_Cohen13 14m14 minutes ago
McCarthy: "Dom Caper is an outstanding football coach. That doesn't change."

Jan 26, 2017


Lol!! :roll:

[texaspackerbacker]

I wouldn't trust any article that refers to the Redskins as "Washington Pro Team".

Same ol' same ol' - a bunch of know nothings try to pin some poor Packer D statistics on Capers when the obvious fact is, the talent overall on the Packers D is deficient, especially among the D backs. We just can't line up and stop teams. We need to scheme them and guess/pick one area to stop and risk that they beat our D in other areas. It seems like a lot of games, the Packers try to play it straight the first series or two; The opposition takes it right down the field; So Capers adjusts with some scheming, and things get better - for a while anyway until the offense adjusts; Then rinse and repeat.

I hate to think of how bad things would get without Capers and the scheming and adjusting.

Thank you Ted for the personnel situation.

[The Shadow]

Sorry, I happen to like Ted. Is he perfect? No. He could have done more in free agency, and he should have always had a vet qb on the roster behind Rodger. But overall, he has been very, very good - and supplied Capers with sufficient talent to craft an effective defense. The fact that the Pack has been struggling for years on D falls on Capers' shoulders, as well as his staff. When a secondary has 'communication problems' that last for YEARS (and allow receivers to run free), then the system that allows poor communication is at fault.
Capers needs to go. The NFL has passed him by.

[beveaux1]

Sorry, I happen to like Ted. Is he perfect? No. He could have done more in free agency, and he should have always had a vet qb on the roster behind Rodger. But overall, he has been very, very good - and supplied Capers with sufficient talent to craft an effective defense. The fact that the Pack has been struggling for years on D falls on Capers' shoulders, as well as his staff. When a secondary has 'communication problems' that last for YEARS (and allow receivers to run free), then the system that allows poor communication is at fault.
Capers needs to go. The NFL has passed him by.

What you’re saying is true for the most part. Thompson has really drafted pretty well, but what we lack is defensive playmakers. This is likely the result of our success. Drafting late in the first round decreases the chances of getting a difference maker with our pick.

We have solid starters at many positions on defense if we have our full compliment of players. House, King, and Randall are solid starters at CB. Burnett and Dix are solid safeties. Martinez, Matthews, and Perry are good LBs. Daniels and Clark are very good DL.

Our problem is that we seem to never have our full compliment of players and we don’t have anyone that the opposing offense has to worry about and plan for. No Von Miller’s or JJ Watts. No Everson Griffin or Chandler Jones. No Aquib Talib or Patrick Peterson.

A player like that is not acquired through free agency, they’re too valuable to let go in free agency. They have to be drafted or acquired out of college and their development takes skill and luck. The great majority of these difference makers are taken early in the first round. The last two that the Packers had were Matthews and Shields. Without them, I’m not sure Capers is the right coach with the right approach to solidify this defense.

[pbmax]

No pass rush. That explains it all.

Well, plus some shoddy tackling.

[Rutnstrut]

Perhaps Dom is still great with the x's and O's. Maybe he's just not that good at the people part of the job.

[Fritz]

Is Fackrell actually showing any promise? Is he rounding into form as a JAG now, moving himself up from "bust" status, or is he destined to be even better, perhaps "slightly above average"?

[Maxie the Taxi]

Is Fackrell actually showing any promise? Is he rounding into form as a JAG now, moving himself up from "bust" status, or is he destined to be even better, perhaps "slightly above average"?I predict both he and Randall will play in the Pro Bowl within 5 years.

[mraynrand]

Is Fackrell actually showing any promise? Is he rounding into form as a JAG now, moving himself up from "bust" status, or is he destined to be even better, perhaps "slightly above average"?

"The coaches are high on him. He is ready to break out any time now. Lot of potential there."

reality: Ceiling = Shea McClellin

[mraynrand]

I predict both he and Randall will play in the Pro Bowl within 5 years.

Fackrell is four years away from retirement

[texaspackerbacker]

Seems like we've had way more high draft picks going for defense lately. The #1s Ted has gotten us haven't played like #1s. The #2s and #3s haven't looked like 2s and 3s either for the post part. I still have hopes Randall will amount to something, but you expect more of a #1 than we have seen. Fackrell was what? a #3? He should be a helluva lot farther along, especially where he is older and supposedly more mature than other second year players. Martinez is about what you'd expect from a #3 or 4; Ryan is not even close. Kenny Clark if he continues to improve, just might be good enough to make up for Datone.

We just don't get as much quality from our draft picks as most teams. I suppose you can give the head coach and coordinators some blame, but the buck stops with the GM.

And of course, almost zilch in quality free agents

[Maxie the Taxi]

Seems like we've had way more high draft picks going for defense lately. The #1s Ted has gotten us haven't played like #1s. The #2s and #3s haven't looked like 2s and 3s either for the post part. I still have hopes Randall will amount to something, but you expect more of a #1 than we have seen. Fackrell was what? a #3? He should be a helluva lot farther along, especially where he is older and supposedly more mature than other second year players. Martinez is about what you'd expect from a #3 or 4; Ryan is not even close. Kenny Clark if he continues to improve, just might be good enough to make up for Datone.

We just don't get as much quality from our draft picks as most teams. I suppose you can give the head coach and coordinators some blame, but the buck stops with the GM.

And of course, almost zilch in quality free agentsDon't forget that because of our draft position, our #1 picks are de facto #2 picks, etc. etc. We get the bottom of the barrel of each round, unless we trade up.

[mraynrand]

We just don't get as much quality from our draft picks as most teams.

I'd like to see your analysis. Give a few examples.

[pbmax]

Is Fackrell actually showing any promise? Is he rounding into form as a JAG now, moving himself up from "bust" status, or is he destined to be even better, perhaps "slightly above average"?

He is playing more solid, doesn't get pushed around as much and is always around the ball.

But he is not yet using those freak athletic traits to get to the passer. If he did, it would be an immediate transformation for the defense because the move the QB off his spot guy is what they are missing.

Matthews, Daniels, Clark and Brooks/Perry are all in good spots in the pocket but they aren't getting disengaged fast enough. But they would be in prime position to clean up. Kinda the Datone Jones role of second guy gets the sack.

[George Cumby]

I'd like to see your analysis. Give a few examples.

It’ll be awhile. He has to sort through his assnapkins.

[mraynrand]

It’ll be awhile. He has to sort through his assnapkins.

assnapkins are critical for anal lysis.

[denverYooper]

assnapkins are critical for anal lysis.

Hope he doesn't blow out an O-ring.

[George Cumby]

assnapkins are critical for anal lysis.

If we are splittting anuses, is that anal fission or anal fissure?

[Cheesehead Craig]

Assnapkin will be the hot new color trend for houses in 2018.

[swede]

https://nbradburydotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/french-taunter.jpg

I wave my private parts at your aunties, you cheesy lot of second hand assnapkins.

[mraynrand]

Assnapkin will be the hot new color trend for houses in 2018.

At Sherwin Williams I believe that color is "Emerging Taupe SW6045"

[Joemailman]

It has to happen. Does anybody think the Packers defense will be better next year if it doesn't happen?

[Rutnstrut]

It has to happen. Does anybody think the Packers defense will be better next year if it doesn't happen?

But Dom's schemes, they are awesome.

[Teamcheez1]

But Dom's schemes, they are awesome.

It's just youth and injuries. MM expects everything will be fine next year after some rest and recreation.

[esoxx]

Assnapkin will be the hot new color trend for houses in 2018.

I prefer the term "asspapertowels"

[Zool]

It has to happen. Does anybody think the Packers defense will be better next year if it doesn't happen?

Based off historical facts, stats, and data, no it won’t. Has Doms D ever covered a TE or is this a GB phenomenon only? Cover the fucking TE and RBs. Year after year the same thing.

[esoxx]

579 bitches

[mraynrand]

579 bitches

did we go to the same high school?

[woodbuck27]

Based off historical facts, stats, and data, no it won’t. Has Doms D ever covered a TE or is this a GB phenomenon only? Cover the fucking TE and RBs. Year after year the same thing.

Yup I said that the Packers Defensive strategy had to certainly be concerned about Carolina and ** TE Greg Olsen **.

** That man was brutally hard on the Green Bay Packers today.

That TE is a Major Load to deal with. This Guy 'Greg Olsen' is REAL Decent.

https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/styles/marquee_large_2x/public/2017/09/17/greg-olsen-injury-panthers.jpg

[ZachMN]

I'd like to see your analysis. Give a few examples.

LOL this is non sense...he is supposed to give you some kind of report with 'stats' to back up his argument? Do you watch this defense play? That's enough analysis...game after game year after year same shit- people running wide open, d backs looking around with their hands up ....and you want analysis....and another poster said something about shoddy tackling?? LOL shoddy is hardly strong enough to describe that bullshit.

This defensive production is squarely on TT and M3. Capers has some culpability but he's running what M3 wants and M3 thinks he's always going to be playing with a huge lead thus forcing the opposing team into lots of risky passing situations allowing the d to get turnovers. I remember him saying as much in an interview several years ago. Fire Capers as long as you bring in a GM with some attitude and balls. Milquetoast Thompson....and Stubborn M3. Is he that dumb he can't see what's wrong with his own defense? Seriously....

[woodbuck27]

LOL this is non sense...he is supposed to give you some kind of report with 'stats' to back up his argument? Do you watch this defense play? That's enough analysis...game after game year after year same shit- people running wide open, d backs looking around with their hands up ....and you want analysis....and another poster said something about shoddy tackling?? LOL shoddy is hardly strong enough to describe that bullshit.

This defensive production is squarely on TT and M3. Capers has some culpability but he's running what M3 wants and M3 thinks he's always going to be playing with a huge lead thus forcing the opposing team into lots of risky passing situations allowing the d to get turnovers. I remember him saying as much in an interview several years ago. Fire Capers as long as you bring in a GM with some attitude and balls. Milquetoast Thompson....and Stubborn M3. Is he that dumb he can't see what's wrong with his own defense? Seriously....

Nailed it !


:wave:

[pittstang5]

Hey all. I've been on hiatus. I don't have the NFL Ticket anymore and when Rogers went down, Packer games stopped being televised in my area - for the obvious reason - Packers sucked without him. I kept tabs on the team, but I also needed to take a break from football and focus on some other things. I couldn't watch again today, but was excited that Rogers was back. Although, I guess it seems for naught.

Anyway, I believe I posed this last year:

If Capers is let go, who do we want? Who's an up and comer Def. Coach? Personally, I'd like to stay with the 3-4 scheme, but at this point, I just want new blood. Thoughts?

[woodbuck27]

It's just youth and injuries. MM expects everything will be fine next year after some rest and recreation.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mqVzRD_nWLQ/hqdefault.jpg

YOU.....Know IT !

[mraynrand]

LOL this is non sense...he is supposed to give you some kind of report with 'stats' to back up his argument? Do you watch this defense play? That's enough analysis...game after game year after year same shit- people running wide open, d backs looking around with their hands up ....and you want analysis....and another poster said something about shoddy tackling?? LOL shoddy is hardly strong enough to describe that bullshit.

This defensive production is squarely on TT and M3. Capers has some culpability but he's running what M3 wants and M3 thinks he's always going to be playing with a huge lead thus forcing the opposing team into lots of risky passing situations allowing the d to get turnovers. I remember him saying as much in an interview several years ago. Fire Capers as long as you bring in a GM with some attitude and balls. Milquetoast Thompson....and Stubborn M3. Is he that dumb he can't see what's wrong with his own defense? Seriously....

I see you're good at providing fact free analysis too. What you posted has nothing to do with what I was asking for. Someone throws out a statement that the Packers don't draft as well as other teams with nothing to support it, and I call bullshit. You've added nothing to that conversation - par for the course. But you impressed woodcock - that alone should fill you with shame. I await your next brilliant summation.

[mraynrand]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mqVzRD_nWLQ/hqdefault.jpg

YOU.....Know IT !

Hey, no posting personal information, including pictures of yourself.

[esoxx]

did we go to the same high school?

Yes, I believe so. I recall you arriving on the short bus.

[mraynrand]

Yes, I believe so. I recall you arriving on the short bus.

It was a rhetorical question.

[ZachMN]

[QUOTE=mraynrand;957850]I see you're good at providing fact free analysis too. What you posted has nothing to do with what I was asking for. Someone throws out a statement that the Packers don't draft as well as other teams with nothing to support it, and I call bullshit. You've added nothing to that conversation - par for the course. But you impressed woodcock - that alone should fill you with shame. I await your next brilliant summation.[/QUOTE

Oh I added something and your response proves that. And to be fair someone can make a statement without supporting it and it can still be true. Sorry we all don't have time to give you detailed analysis with spreadsheets and matrices to 'back up' our opinion. All I have is the Scoreboard.

[mraynrand]

All I have is the Scoreboard.

OK, well, if you're gonna 'bottom line' it then the Packers org. has been more successful than 1-3 teams over the TT/Stubby/Capers era, so you're crushingly wrong by your own standard. But we already knew that. Try again, or just fall back on your typical empty snark as usual.

[run pMc]

It's the pass rush. A fearsome pass rush will make your defense look worlds better.
You can't expect DBs to cover for 4 seconds in the modern NFL unless they are Pro bowlers...GB's aren't.
They don't have anyone in the secondary like Nick Collins who took iffy angles but had enough speed to erase mistakes, or the versatility of Woodson. Maybe Josh Jones can grow into Collins, but guys like Woodson -- DPOY caliber guys -- are rare.

You can't tell CM3 or Perry to take a pay cut - they are the only pass rushers they have. It's up to TT to spend a few high round picks on pass rush.
Given drafting is basically a coin flip, you have to take a lot of guesses to get it right. Trouble is, when you use high value picks you can't afford to guess wrong. Fackrell will stick because of where he was drafted and because he's decent on special teams. This is basically a redshirt year for Biegel and Montravious Adams. I'm pretty sure TT & Co. know what they need to do to the roster...but until then all we can do is watch.

The argument that most teams draft better on defense is iffy IMO. Drafting at the top of a round vs. the bottom can make a huge difference on roster talent, some years there are only 10-15 bonafide first round talents in the draft...and GM's make lots of mistakes. Look at the drafts the rest of the NFCN have had over the last 4 years...Green Bay has drafted at least as good as the rest, and I'd argue only Minnesota comes close to having drafted as well, mostly because they hit on several defensive players.

[ZachMN]

OK, well, if you're gonna 'bottom line' it then the Packers org. has been more successful than 1-3 teams over the TT/Stubby/Capers era, so you're crushingly wrong by your own standard. But we already knew that. Try again, or just fall back on your typical empty snark as usual.

Wow. Your happy with the results this regime has proffered over the last decade? I guess I expect better than one SB appearance and choke jobs when it matters. Like all message boards and forums online this one has it's philistine contingent which as usual I rub the wrong way due to pointing out the obvious. I define success not by how the 'stats' say I look over a given period. I define it as Winning Championships. And not 'division' championships either....more non sense..... So go use your 'stats' to 'prove' you arguments to all your sycophant buddies and ignore people like me who don't buy what you're selling.

[call_me_ishmael]

Whether it's the talent or the coaching, this sort of stuff has gone on long enough that it might just be time for a new voice.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/942754643242864641

[Carolina_Packer]

I blame Capers for the lions share of the issue, but not all of it. I appreciate the TT way, but when you operate as he does using mostly the draft and UFA's, and not a lot of FA's, save for this last off-season, you really need to have better results from more of the picks. If you know you have not hit on a lot of your recent draft picks on defense, you need to know when it's time to fish or cut bait and think even harder about bringing a more immediate impact player.

That said, Capers has had his chance and should be dismissed. He did better when he had Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Levon Kirkland, Carnell Lake...you get the point, back in the 1990's. Nobody is going to mistake our defensive personnel with the 1994 Steeler's defense, but he did well with those really good players. Just sayin' Again, I am not defending him remaining, I'm just saying it's personnel as much as it is anything, and the person in charge of that mostly is TT.

Perhaps TT will leave, even though Mark Murphy has said publicly that he can be there as long as he wants, and by leave I mean, we'll make it look like it was your idea and you'll take a scouting job or fully retire. We need a GM that is more aggressive in free agency without guaranteeing stupid money, to offset the possibility of not hitting on personnel, which TT clearly has not done consistently on D. Sure, I get that there have been a ton of injuries, and youth, but then the scheme needs to be more simplified.

[pbmax]

Wow. Your happy with the results this regime has proffered over the last decade? I guess I expect better than one SB appearance and choke jobs when it matters. Like all message boards and forums online this one has it's philistine contingent which as usual I rub the wrong way due to pointing out the obvious. I define success not by how the 'stats' say I look over a given period. I define it as Winning Championships. And not 'division' championships either....more non sense..... So go use your 'stats' to 'prove' you arguments to all your sycophant buddies and ignore people like me who don't buy what you're selling.

So when should they have fired Thompson and McCarthy, 2011?

[pbmax]

Question: What is the best you could expect of this defense as is with the most competent coaching in the League?

1. Best two corners are out
2. Rookie playing safety
3. No pass rush
4. Safeties playing corners getting beat deep, necessitating deep help.

ishmael's link to Fennell's stats is disturbing in the extreme. Worse that some of those same stats in 2013. However, the Packers D are still 21st in points allowed.

The confusion in the backfield is maddening. But I think its different this year (Randall making mistakes in slot and now Jones making mistakes in slot) than in the past when even vets got it wrong.

But if you sub out the entire staff and don't let M3 dictate the philosophy, what is the best you think this defense is capable of now?

[texaspackerbacker]

So when should they have fired Thompson and McCarthy, 2011?

Ted should probably never have been hired, in hindsight. He took the Ron Wolf draft and develop idea (which is a shaky philosophy to begin with) to more of an extreme than Wolf. He got a rep as a good GM because Aaron Rodgers was (hopefully still is) so damn good that the mediocrity of the team otherwise was not obvious. Thompson supporters may not like reading that, but it's true - damn true.

I dread the idea of Elliott Wolf as the next GM, since he probably is a disciple of Ted and Ron. The only hope is that several former Packer personnel people snapped out of it when they went elsewhere.

Draft and develop isn't bad if you are great at drafting. You could say Ted has just been unlucky - ever since drafting Rodgers and maybe Matthews, but that many years of bad luck, he must have broken several mirrors. And supplementing deficiencies with free agent pickups? Unthinkable, and the very very few exceptions have been crap most of the time - since Woodson, maybe - and even he was thought by most to be over the hill when we got him.

McCarthy is an ok coach. Playing not to lose/being too cautious generally wins games if you have a good team. The most annoying thing about him IMO is failing to develop young talent - often letting it sit on the bench damn near forever. Would we have even seen Aaron Jones, for example, if injuries hadn't forced it? There's a guy I'd like to see at Corner, Donatello Brown, who hasn't even smelled game action - while the players we have in there flounder.

[call_me_ishmael]

My gut feeling is the defense is just too complicated. It's crazy that at the end of the year, rookies still cannot contribute. These people have been playing football their entire lives. How hard could it really be?

I recall that Gus Bradley and his successor preached and valued simplicity of scheme over everything else so that players can just play fast. That does seem to be the way to go forward here.

If there is anything that annoys me about the Packers D, and there isn't much, it's that we hear year after year how the young folks cannot thrive it in and need to be coached up quite a bit. That is a smell that it's too complicated to me.

[texaspackerbacker]

Simplicity is a luxury you can only afford if you have superior talent. We don't.

[ZachMN]

So when should they have fired Thompson and McCarthy, 2011?

After the choke job in Seattle for M3 for sure. Thompson '15. How's that?

[ZachMN]

My gut feeling is the defense is just too complicated. It's crazy that at the end of the year, rookies still cannot contribute. These people have been playing football their entire lives. How hard could it really be?

I recall that Gus Bradley and his successor preached and valued simplicity of scheme over everything else so that players can just play fast. That does seem to be the way to go forward here.

If there is anything that annoys me about the Packers D, and there isn't much, it's that we hear year after year how the young folks cannot thrive it in and need to be coached up quite a bit. That is a smell that it's too complicated to me.

Absolutely. Watch the 'queens. There isn't anything complex about what they do, it starts with line play.

[ZachMN]

Simplicity is a luxury you can only afford if you have superior talent. We don't.

But you can't quantify that well enough for the philistines here. It's not enough to watch them play and say they pass the eye test or not around here otherwise your opinion is invalidated. Bring some spreadsheets!!

[pbmax]

After the choke job in Seattle for M3 for sure. Thompson '15. How's that?

So substitute embarrassing loss with a spectacular player failure for lack of championships as the criteria? So if Bostick blocks rather than jumps, McCarthy is a better coach?

This criteria is only one step better than CHAMPIONSHIPS! because it actually considers coaching as a factor in players contributing to defeat.

[pbmax]

Absolutely. Watch the 'queens. There isn't anything complex about what they do, it starts with line play.

The Vikings play some of the best disguised coverages in the League. Rodgers has spoken about this at length as a feature of Zimmer as their coach (Bengals DC and Vikes HC).

[Teamcheez1]

The Vikings play some of the best disguised coverages in the League. Rodgers has spoken about this at length as a feature of Zimmer as their coach (Bengals DC and Vikes HC).

Capers does the same. He disguises the defense to actually make the offense think we're going to cover and tackle them.

[pbmax]

Capers does the same. He disguises the defense to actually make the offense think we're going to cover and tackle them.

No one knows what they'll do. Not even the DBs.

[call_me_ishmael]

Simplicity is a luxury you can only afford if you have superior talent. We don't.

Well if our slow and un-athletic players cannot play fast in Capers system due to thinking, wouldn't be it be beneficial to maximize their talents by keeping this simple and enabling them to play at top speed? At least then they have a punchers chance at beating the opposition to the spot, lol!

[texaspackerbacker]

Well if our slow and un-athletic players cannot play fast in Capers system due to thinking, wouldn't be it be beneficial to maximize their talents by keeping this simple and enabling them to play at top speed? At least then they have a punchers chance at beating the opposition to the spot, lol!

No no no. We have to send a gang of people to rush the QB like Khalid Mack or a few others do individually, but when we send that gang, we leave other things open - but we have to do it or else almost any QB can pick us apart. Having a shut down Corner would make the guessing game we need to play less dangerous ...... but we don't have one. That's why losing Shields hurt so much.

It seems like a lot of games, the Packers D plays it simple on the first series - and what happens? We have given up more points I think than any other team on the first series. Then the scheming kicks in, and things get better. But later in the game, sharp Offensive Coordinators adapt too. It ain't that Capers is outsmarted - IMO, just that he has limited talent to work with.

[Bossman641]

Please get rid of capers. I can't take another year.

[Joemailman]

Please get rid of capers. I can't take another year.

Me either. I no longer see hope for improvement as long as he's the DC. I have a sense there will be a change this year. Reading between the lines, I sense less support from MM for the defense in his press conferences.

[texaspackerbacker]

I say AGAIN, it would be idiotic to get rid of Capers. You guys who hate him so much, who or more importantly, what kind of D Coordinator do you guys want? And how do you think any kind of more conventional defense would do with the fairly mediocre personnel the Packers have and the unlikelihood that Ted will improve it significantly?

[Bossman641]

I say AGAIN, it would be idiotic to get rid of Capers. You guys who hate him so much, who or more importantly, what kind of D Coordinator do you guys want? And how do you think any kind of more conventional defense would do with the fairly mediocre personnel the Packers have and the unlikelihood that Ted will improve it significantly?

I'm not saying it's 100% capers, but tt will be around until he chooses to retire. We don't have any studs on d but I'm of the opinion that the d is playing below the talent of the individuals. Combine that with the continued miscommunication and inability to defend the middle of the field, and its time for a change.

[Rutnstrut]

I say AGAIN, it would be idiotic to get rid of Capers. You guys who hate him so much, who or more importantly, what kind of D Coordinator do you guys want? And how do you think any kind of more conventional defense would do with the fairly mediocre personnel the Packers have and the unlikelihood that Ted will improve it significantly?

TT isn't giving Capers the talent he needs to do it his way. Capers isn't smart enough or good enough to work with what he gets. TT is going nowhere, it makes sense that Capers should be the one to go. But it will not happen. Stubby would have to fire him. There is no one in the NFL that likes throwing shit at the wall until something eventually sticks like stubby does.

[Bretsky]

More I think about pass rush the more it’s clear that the failure of personnel is not on D line but OLB.


THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

[call_me_ishmael]

Remember when everybody thought the DB coach was a stud? I am sort of wondering if he just got really lucky with Shields and UDFA Terrell Williams being a stud to pair up with Woodson. He hasn't really seemed to develop anyone else.

Same goes with ILB and OLB. We've played musical chairs there a lot over the years and nobody has really done much of anything.

The Packers haven't had a stud defender in many years, since the days of Chuck, Young Clay and Nick Collins. It really makes you wonder. Is Ted just unquestionably the worst defensive drafter in the NFL, or are the players not being put in positions to succeed? We've seen two DBs leave and have levels of success greatly beyond what they accomplished here. I can't really think of any other players who have left and excelled though.

[mraynrand]

Ted should probably never have been hired, in hindsight. He took the Ron Wolf draft and develop idea (which is a shaky philosophy to begin with) to more of an extreme than Wolf. He got a rep as a good GM because Aaron Rodgers was (hopefully still is) so damn good that the mediocrity of the team otherwise was not obvious. Thompson supporters may not like reading that, but it's true - damn true.

As usual, it's only partly true. Rodgers is great because of Rodgers and because of Stubby'd development. Name the other successful Tedford QBs. How did their coaches change their mechanics and put them in an explosive offense tuned to their talents? Ignoring the team building that led to 2010 is totally myopic. Matthews and Raji were essential draft picks and Pickett and Woodson were absolutely essential FA picks. Collins came into his own that year, and Shields bailed out the back end. That was a #2 defense, largely because the great pieces TT accumulated were all healthy. On offense, the line was great, the receivers were at or close to their peak, and the running backs were good enough. Look at how Stubby got production out of Starks and Jackson. Even missing TT's great TE pick, they were almost unstoppable. But things fell apart, and it took until 2014 to reassemble a very solid defense. If Bostick had done his job, we likely have another trophy.

It's astonishing how well the team is constructed, considering where they routinely pick. As long as Stub by is here, it will be a team centered around the offense, just as MN will be centered on the defense. Right now Packers need 1 or 2 exceptional players and they'll need to get that by picking higher in the draft and/or a FA acquisition.

[mraynrand]

TT isn't giving Capers the talent he needs to do it his way. Capers isn't smart enough or good enough to work with what he gets.

Hmm...

[mraynrand]

Absolutely. Watch the 'queens. There isn't anything complex about what they do, it starts with line play.

There's at least some truth here. Line play and pressure from the D-line (4-3) and OLBs (3-4) matters. Vikings, for whatever reason, picked better defensive line players than the Packers. Griffen in the 4th, Joseph, 2nd, Hunter 3rd. At LB Kendricks in a 2, Barr a 1 (No. 9 overall),
But in the secondary Rhodes, Waynes, and Harrison are all #1 picks and none of them are hurt I believe. Vikings have invested heavily in the draft on the LBs and the back end. The Line, not as much. But they've done well there.

The defense looks better in MN because of better and higher picks, coaches/coaching focus, and health.

[pbmax]

Me either. I no longer see hope for improvement as long as he's the DC. I have a sense there will be a change this year. Reading between the lines, I sense less support from MM for the defense in his press conferences.

He said too many mistakes. So he is seeing what everyone else is seeing. I think there is a fundamental mismatch between draft and develop and Capers system. But its still not been resolved 8 years in.

These guys, despite public proclamations of fan experts, are not idiots. They have tried to make it palatable to the young ones. But it ain't working.

Someone mentioned Whitt as someone who has looked both like a genius for developing players and terrible at getting them to coordinate back there. But Whitt doesn't get to choose the scheme or the adjustments. I suspect he can still develop a corner (King was playing fine for a rookie with a bum shoulder) but cannot remove the fundamental complexity of Capers multiple coverages behind his multiple attempts to generate a pass rush.

The weird thing is that a new guy would inherit a D that will have a lot of young vets starting next year. They have drafted a lot of defenders high recently.

[pbmax]

Capers would not have had some of the backend problems this year with a pass rush. Dix plays closer to the LOS and has to devote less time to helping CBs.

Capers had to abandon his pressure (which causes the backend complexity at times) when his injured CBs/replacements were getting beat deep. I don't know how you square this circle this year.

Capers might get fired for the mistakes and the complexity that made them more numerous. But don't forget that rookies make mistakes in coverages (Jones allowing that TD down the seam route was a colossal mistake in simple recognition about how many receivers were on which side of the field).

But Ted owes Capers more pass rush. Fackrell and Elliot failed to develop. You don't end up in the bottom third of the League with a veteran coach and staff unless there are personnel problems.

[mraynrand]

Biegel and Fackrell were supposed to replace a declining Peppers. Perry was supposed to play. Lowry and Clark were supposed to have breakout years.

Nada.

[pbmax]

Biegel and Fackrell were supposed to replace a declining Peppers. Perry was supposed to play. Lowry and Clark were supposed to have breakout years.

Nada.

From a pass rushing standpoint yes. But Clark and Lowry were good at their main job, holding the point of attack. Like I said last week I think, you stick one disruptive guy on that pass rush and the other three, whoever they are, are good enough to be close enough to seal the deal.

But that guy has to be as nuts as Matthews was in his first three years.

[MadScientist]

I say AGAIN, it would be idiotic to get rid of Capers. You guys who hate him so much, who or more importantly, what kind of D Coordinator do you guys want? And how do you think any kind of more conventional defense would do with the fairly mediocre personnel the Packers have and the unlikelihood that Ted will improve it significantly?

Go back to the Detroit game and read what Stafford said after the game. He knew from the looks he got exactly what blitzes the Packers were doing. Capers system has been beaten. So what kind of D-coord do I want? I want one who's system hasn't been beaten, where opposing QB's don't know just what we are doing.

[pbmax]

Go back to the Detroit game and read what Stafford said after the game. He knew from the looks he got exactly what blitzes the Packers were doing. Capers system has been beaten. So what kind of D-coord do I want? I want one who's system hasn't been beaten, where opposing QB's don't know just what we are doing.

I don't think that is that unusual for a veteran QB to know a 30 year coordinators basic looks (he looks at their film twice a year minimum). If he didn't Stafford should be fired. Rodgers knows what he is getting all the time and it doesn't just happen to ex-Steeler coordinators.

The problem is that the pressure only works if its a surprise. That is a personnel issue.

[mraynrand]

Go back to the Detroit game and read what Stafford said after the game. He knew from the looks he got exactly what blitzes the Packers were doing. Capers system has been beaten. So what kind of D-coord do I want? I want one who's system hasn't been beaten, where opposing QB's don't know just what we are doing.

Did you hear what Rodgers said about Carolina? He was hoping they'd blitz. Maybe it's because he and other QBs know how to beat all sorts of blitzes and are surprised by very little they see. Seems like more a veteran quality than due to a 'stale' defense. I find it hard to believe that there are defensive innovations that are so stunningly amazing that veteran QBs and offenses can't reasonably dissect them. Even if there are (say maybe Zimmer's) you need capable pros to run them. Seems like that's where the rubber meets the road for the Packers defense - personnel.

[Pugger]

As usual, it's only partly true. Rodgers is great because of Rodgers and because of Stubby'd development. Name the other successful Tedford QBs. How did their coaches change their mechanics and put them in an explosive offense tuned to their talents? Ignoring the team building that led to 2010 is totally myopic. Matthews and Raji were essential draft picks and Pickett and Woodson were absolutely essential FA picks. Collins came into his own that year, and Shields bailed out the back end. That was a #2 defense, largely because the great pieces TT accumulated were all healthy. On offense, the line was great, the receivers were at or close to their peak, and the running backs were good enough. Look at how Stubby got production out of Starks and Jackson. Even missing TT's great TE pick, they were almost unstoppable. But things fell apart, and it took until 2014 to reassemble a very solid defense. If Bostick had done his job, we likely have another trophy.

It's astonishing how well the team is constructed, considering where they routinely pick. As long as Stub by is here, it will be a team centered around the offense, just as MN will be centered on the defense. Right now Packers need 1 or 2 exceptional players and they'll need to get that by picking higher in the draft and/or a FA acquisition.

Nice post. Perhaps not making the playoffs this year and the continued issues on defense will finally produce changes this offseason. In his presser yesterday McCoach didn't have much good to say about the defense. Maybe he's starting to see what a lot of us have been seeing for a while now and he'll make a change. We can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.

[Pugger]

Biegel and Fackrell were supposed to replace a declining Peppers. Perry was supposed to play. Lowry and Clark were supposed to have breakout years.

Nada.

Clark? He was one of the few bright spots on this defense this year.

[Pugger]

Did you hear what Rodgers said about Carolina? He was hoping they'd blitz. Maybe it's because he and other QBs know how to beat all sorts of blitzes and are surprised by very little they see. Seems like more a veteran quality than due to a 'stale' defense. I find it hard to believe that there are defensive innovations that are so stunningly amazing that veteran QBs and offenses can't reasonably dissect them. Even if there are (say maybe Zimmer's) you need capable pros to run them. Seems like that's where the rubber meets the road for the Packers defense - personnel.

When Rodgers is Rodgers he can kill a team that blitzes him. But on Sunday his throws were off and short - mainly because of rust on not playing in 2 months.

[Carolina_Packer]

The Packers problem on defense is as much about availability as ability. That said, you can only use point to injuries for so long. TT needs to fix the defense, but is he the right man to fix it? You can blame Dom, scheme and injuries, but show me the impact players that TT has drafted who have shown out since being drafted. Too many swings and misses in my book. I don't want Capers to coach the D anymore. If fired, he may get another chance with a more aggressive GM, and better luck with player health and once again coach a decent defense, but his time in GB has to be coming to an end just from a confidence stand point. I also don't want TT to have the opportunity to fix the defense. That would be a pretty big turn of events, but it could happen. The A-Rod clock is ticking down. Get the D fixed once and for all.

[wpony]

I have been saying for a few yrs, now fire Capers to a friend of mine who lives close to me , Its not that Capers cant call a great defensive game plan his trouble is where the other teams offense comes in with a different game plan that capers drawn up its like he is to set in his way and seems that he cant or wont change that game plan he thinks what he calls is always perfect so the packers either loose or have there worst games of the year against the teams we should have stamped on so lets fire capers and bring is fresh thinking D,C,

[mraynrand]

Clark? He was one of the few bright spots on this defense this year.

He played well when healthy and meh when injured. May the injury gives him a pass but this was the year to discover whether he would be an exceptional difference maker or just a ‘good lineman’. Maybe next year but it’s looking like the latter.

[Rutnstrut]

I just don't understand the mindset of wanting to keep Capers because he does ok. Couldn't you argue that pretty much any poor to mediocre coach could do well if he was given outstanding talent, spared injuries, and got some luck? Sure Capers could do well in GB IF, the stars align. That isn't likely to happen, so new blood is needed at DC. But like I said, that won't happen as old stubby would have to fire him.

[beveaux1]

Capers would not have had some of the backend problems this year with a pass rush. Dix plays closer to the LOS and has to devote less time to helping CBs.

Capers had to abandon his pressure (which causes the backend complexity at times) when his injured CBs/replacements were getting beat deep. I don't know how you square this circle this year.

Capers might get fired for the mistakes and the complexity that made them more numerous. But don't forget that rookies make mistakes in coverages (Jones allowing that TD down the seam route was a colossal mistake in simple recognition about how many receivers were on which side of the field).

But Ted owes Capers more pass rush. Fackrell and Elliot failed to develop. You don't end up in the bottom third of the League with a veteran coach and staff unless there are personnel problems.

There is a lot of truth in this. The loss of Shields last year changed the draft strategy for this year. If Shields had been on this team, there would have been no need to draft a CB early- an OLB/edge rusher would have been the obvious pick.

Last year there was an abundance of well-thought-of CBs in the draft class with the assumption that this year's draft would be much more marginal for CBs. Thompson chose to pick a CB rather than an edge rusher. His next choice was a hybrid safety who could play ILB patterned after the Falcons and Deion Jones. Both picks were need picks because our ILBs lacked speed to cover RBs and TEs. During the off-season, he signed House for depth at CB and during preseason, after watching the play of Fackrell and Elliott, signed Brooks to provide edge rush when Matthews and Perry were gassed or hurt.

As we all know, every CB that was supposed to play in base, nickel, or dime defense, with the exception of Randall was injured. Most required placement on IR. At OLB, Matthews only missed one game, but Brooks and Perry have been injured more than they've been able to play. The result has been a lackluster at best pass rush. Surprisingly, when they've been healthy, the pass rush has been good. It just hasn't been good in more than 20% of the games.

I suppose a case could be made that Thompson didn't supply the components for this defense to succeed. I just have a hard time seeing what else he could have done. It's easy in retrospect to say that he could have drafted Watt and waited until this year to get a CB, but CBs have a longer development time than edge rushers and this year's class in CBs may not be as strong. Also, in hindsight it's easy to say he should have ponied up for a free agent edge rusher, but which were available and how well did they do this year?

Also, how much cap will he need to sign Adams and Rodgers and will he have to use this year's reserve to do it? The question to me is with Burnett, Dix, Randall, Martinez, Matthews, Lowry, Clark, and Daniels, how well should a defense perform? Should it rank 30th or below in 3rd down efficiency, red zone efficiency, time of possession, and number of drives with over 10 plays?

If the answer is that it should do better than that, then that's a coaching problem.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think that the assumption that Capers has no input in the defensive players that are drafted and signed in FA and it's all TT giving Dom square players for round holes is absurd.

Dom is equally culpable for drafted and signed FA players for the defense as he certainly has input on who would work for his POS system.

There needs to be cleansing of the defensive leadership and scheme.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think that the assumption that Capers has no input in the defensive players that are drafted and signed in FA and it's all TT giving Dom square players for round holes is absurd.

Dom is equally culpable for drafted and signed FA players for the defense as he certainly has input on who would work for his POS system.

There needs to be cleansing of the defensive leadership and scheme.

Good point. I hadn't really considered this. It really makes you wonder then. I would argue that Teddy T has shown historic levels of poor performance on defensive drafting, but maybe it is Capers playing an equally big role.

[Pugger]

There is a lot of truth in this. The loss of Shields last year changed the draft strategy for this year. If Shields had been on this team, there would have been no need to draft a CB early- an OLB/edge rusher would have been the obvious pick.

Last year there was an abundance of well-thought-of CBs in the draft class with the assumption that this year's draft would be much more marginal for CBs. Thompson chose to pick a CB rather than an edge rusher. His next choice was a hybrid safety who could play ILB patterned after the Falcons and Deion Jones. Both picks were need picks because our ILBs lacked speed to cover RBs and TEs. During the off-season, he signed House for depth at CB and during preseason, after watching the play of Fackrell and Elliott, signed Brooks to provide edge rush when Matthews and Perry were gassed or hurt.

As we all know, every CB that was supposed to play in base, nickel, or dime defense, with the exception of Randall was injured. Most required placement on IR. At OLB, Matthews only missed one game, but Brooks and Perry have been injured more than they've been able to play. The result has been a lackluster at best pass rush. Surprisingly, when they've been healthy, the pass rush has been good. It just hasn't been good in more than 20% of the games.

I suppose a case could be made that Thompson didn't supply the components for this defense to succeed. I just have a hard time seeing what else he could have done. It's easy in retrospect to say that he could have drafted Watt and waited until this year to get a CB, but CBs have a longer development time than edge rushers and this year's class in CBs may not be as strong. Also, in hindsight it's easy to say he should have ponied up for a free agent edge rusher, but which were available and how well did they do this year?

Also, how much cap will he need to sign Adams and Rodgers and will he have to use this year's reserve to do it? The question to me is with Burnett, Dix, Randall, Martinez, Matthews, Lowry, Clark, and Daniels, how well should a defense perform? Should it rank 30th or below in 3rd down efficiency, red zone efficiency, time of possession, and number of drives with over 10 plays?

If the answer is that it should do better than that, then that's a coaching problem.

:clap:

[beveaux1]

Good point. I hadn't really considered this. It really makes you wonder then. I would argue that Teddy T has shown historic levels of poor performance on defensive drafting, but maybe it is Capers playing an equally big role.

If your argument is that Thompson has drafted historically bad on the defensive side, I would submit that he has drafted fairly well on the defensive side. Burnett, Dix, House, King, Randall, Martinez, Matthews, Perry, Hayward, Hyde, Clark, Lowry, Ryan, and Daniels are all Thompson draft picks. All of them are starters at the NFL level. Some have reached pro bowl levels. If your argument is that he has not put enough difference makers on the field. I won't disagree with that. Although, even that comes with a qualifier. Both Shields and Matthews had been difference makers. Both of them have struggled with injury and it has removed one from the field and made the other merely a very good player much earlier than it should have.

The question still remains. Is it the system that is limiting some players from reaching their potential or are the players not good enough to reach greatness? Hyde and Hayward have certainly played well since leaving Green Bay. Both might make the pro bowl for their respective teams. How many more players do we have that could do the same with a different system?

[Smidgeon]

If your argument is that Thompson has drafted historically bad on the defensive side, I would submit that he has drafted fairly well on the defensive side. Burnett, Dix, House, King, Randall, Martinez, Matthews, Perry, Hayward, Hyde, Clark, Lowry, Ryan, and Daniels are all Thompson draft picks. All of them are starters at the NFL level. Some have reached pro bowl levels. If your argument is that he has not put enough difference makers on the field. I won't disagree with that. Although, even that comes with a qualifier. Both Shields and Matthews had been difference makers. Both of them have struggled with injury and it has removed one from the field and made the other merely a very good player much earlier than it should have.

The question still remains. Is it the system that is limiting some players from reaching their potential or are the players not good enough to reach greatness? Hyde and Hayward have certainly played well since leaving Green Bay. Both might make the pro bowl for their respective teams. How many more players do we have that could do the same with a different system?

Collins
Shields
Matthews' injuries

All robbed the Packers of that one defensive star that would put them over the top in certain games. You don't need that many. And you don't draft stars. You draft talent/production and hope it turns into stars. If all three of them were still playing along their trajectories, we wouldn't be worried about the defense. Matthews would keep moving the QB off his mark, Shields would shut down the opponents' number 1 receivers, and Collins would make them pay for everything else.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Collins has been gone for 5 years. That excuse is irrelevant at this point.

[beveaux1]

Collins has been gone for 5 years. That excuse is irrelevant at this point.

The average success rate for an NFL first round pick is 56%. That means that within 5 years, 5.6 out of 10 first round picks becomes a starter. 40% of first round picks are no longer in the league after their first NFL contract. Obviously, not all first round picks that become starters are difference makers. For every Darrell Revis there are many A.J. Hawks. Since the term difference maker is subjective and since every round of the draft lowers the possibility of finding an NFL starter (2nd round 25%, 3rd round 15%, 4th through 7th round between 3 and 7%). It would make sense that finding a difference maker past the 2nd round to be something akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

Thompson has been in charge of the draft for 12 years. During those years, he has uncovered 3 difference makers on defense. My guess would be that 1 out of 3 starters taken in the first round would be a difference maker (probably an extremely high guess). For rounds 2 through 7 and undrafted free agents we'll guess a little less- 1 out of 5 starters to be a difference maker (this would be an very high guess.). If my math is right, 18% of first round picks become a difference maker and a 10% chance in any year of finding a difference maker in the other rounds. This is a 3 in 10 chance that a draft will produce a difference maker. Not a good to very good player, but a difference maker.

Of course, getting more picks increases your odds, but trading out of the first round decreases your odds. Drafting later in the rounds also decreases your odds, but that's not part of my argument. In 12 years, we should have developed 4 difference makers - if we were average - on offense and defense together. I would say we've been better than average, probably quite a bit better than average. The problem has been the shortened careers, due to freak injury, of a number of our best players, especially on defense.

That is why talking about Collins is relevant. As relevant as talking about Shields and Matthews and it is also a strong reason for the continuing failure of our defense over the past 5 years.

[Teamcheez1]

From Demovsky over at ESPN.com:

Packers veteran defensive coordinator Dom Capers on how much longer he wants to coach: "As long as I enjoy it. I enjoy the competitiveness of it, and the relationship with the players. So as long as I enjoy it."

[Iron Mike]

I'm on board with DC "retiring" this off season.....as of yet, no one has mentioned a possible replacement for him, though.

Let me throw out a few names, and tell me what you think.

--John Butler

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/1/11/14236628/john-butler-sean-mcdermott-bills-texans-assistant-ties-to-mcdermott-could-be-defensive-coordinator


--Perry Fewell

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article-JaguarsNews/Perry-Fewell-named-secondary-coach/15adcc3f-e2d1-4503-921f-178304271086


--Mike Pettine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/01/09/redskins-interview-former-browns-head-coach-mike-pettine-for-defensive-coordinator/?utm_term=.35a1124a46cd

[Rutnstrut]

He will have to retire. Stubby will not fire him.

[Bretsky]

Biegel and Fackrell were supposed to replace a declining Peppers. Perry was supposed to play. Lowry and Clark were supposed to have breakout years.

Nada.



Just that thought has me LMAO

They could not replace Datone Jones...who you left off

Thanksted

[mraynrand]

Just that thought has me LMAO

They could not replace Datone Jones...who you left off

Thanksted

Well, they are OLBs and Jones really is a DE, despite the position move. Jones' position move was a last desperate act to try and save Jones' career. Obviously it didn't work. I Think Jones was reasonably replace by Lowry. That's a slight upgrade, right now.

[wist43]

Capers ain't going anywhere... and we'll be right back here next year having these same conversations.

[mraynrand]

Capers ain't going anywhere... and we'll be right back here next year having these same conversations.

nobody's forcing you to come back

[Rutnstrut]

nobody's forcing you to come back

There has to be a few realists around to keep you kool-aid addicts in check.

[denverYooper]

There has to be a few realists around to keep you kool-aid addicts in check.

It's sort of ridiculous to talk about what is realistic on a fan forum. Being a fan implies some level of suspension of realism, whether you choose to interpret your team's actions pessimistically or optimistically. I personally choose to enjoy the long-term success of many wins over the last 20 years, though I'm always disappointed for a few hours when the Packers bow out for the year without a title.

I generally feel like pessimistic fanship is generally providing the fanalyst a fallback position, to make the ultimate loss more palatable: they told you so! Every organization on Earth that consists of more than one person has warts that can be focused on, so there is always a flaw to be picked out and amplified into absurdity as the ultimate reason that a season (or project) has failed.

For the most part, I think most on this site deal with it "realistically", as much as that is possible. I don't see anyone saying there shouldn't be changes made. Some just are interested in discussing more of the angles that make the changes that need to be made more complicated than binary hire/fire players or personnel decisions.

And Capers needs to go ;). I'm ready for changes on the defense.

[call_me_ishmael]

The beat writers seem to think it's a foregone conclusion that he gone. Good riddance! Who is the best young coordinator in the NFL is the question? I want simple schema that enables fast play and not-so-smart guys able to contribute early.

[denverYooper]

The beat writers seem to think it's a foregone conclusion that he gone. Good riddance! Who is the best young coordinator in the NFL is the question? I want simple schema that enables fast play and not-so-smart guys able to contribute early.

The beat writers these days mostly just ride the wave of click-based fan sentiment. Funny enough, the current approach of measuring reaction based on click data is "a simple schema that enables fast play and not-so-smart guys able to contribute early" in the journalistic realm.

[pbmax]

“This” turned out to be Newton throwing to halfback Christian McCaffrey running uncovered over the middle for an easy touchdown while the Packers bungled a coverage they had worked on during the week.

I have Tweeted at him, but I cannot find the reference to any coverage of what the coverage that they worked on during the week was supposed to look like versus McCaffrey.

Anyone else see it?

As ishmael says elsewhere, Spoon has climbed aboard the Capers gotta go bandwagon: http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/12/22/silverstein-packers-must-move-dom-capers/977755001/

[pbmax]

Never mind, it was in the article:


A perfect example of the lack of chemistry was McCaffrey’s 7-yard touchdown catch. Inside linebacker Blake Martinez and safety Josh Jones had tight end Greg Olsen and McCaffrey, who ran complementary routes. Both Martinez and Jones went with Olsen and McCaffrey was left wide open.

“We practice it through the week,” inside linebackers coach Scott McCurley lamented with pain in his voice. “It was a top concept in what we do and we didn’t get it executed between he and Josh in there.

This kind of thing is why I suspect its the assistant coaches as much as Capers. But are their skills lacking or does Capers assume they know more than they can teach? Is the scheme so complex that a rookie and 2nd year player cannot remember it even if well taught during the week?

Those are the answers you need.

[pbmax]

Jones has 663 snaps under his belt this season, so inexperience isn’t much of an excuse. He wound up chasing an underneath route that one of his teammates had covered in simple man-to-man coverage.

“That kind of exemplifies the consistency which we haven’t been able to play,” Capers said. “We haven’t played as consistent as we’d like to play.”

Is it Jones is just a rookie playing two positions and mastering neither (strong safety and Nitro).

[mraynrand]

There has to be a few realists around to keep you kool-aid addicts in check.

says the guy who evacuates his bowels every week in the gameday thread.

[mraynrand]

"a simple schema that enables fast play and not-so-smart guys able to contribute early"

like most gameday posts

[mraynrand]

Those are the answers you need.

- said pbmax, with pain in his voice.

[denverYooper]

A lot has been made of these M3 comments this week:



We have to be honest about the patterns of negativity and positivity. What comes from that, how do you learn from that, how do you improve? To win championships, you have to go through adverse moments. We’ve had plenty this year. Not hitting our goal, not playing to the standard of the Green Bay Packers is definitely an adverse situation we need to learn from.

Some have taken it to mean Capers needs to go. Usually when I hear about "patterns of negativity" in an organizational unit, it has to do with infighting or other internal dissension and would imply to me that coaches and/or players are grumbling or arguing. That could mean Capers goes, but it could also mean restructuring at other levels of the coaching staff.

[pbmax]

A lot has been made of these M3 comments this week:



Some have taken it to mean Capers needs to go. Usually when I hear about "patterns of negativity" in an organizational unit, it has to do with infighting or other internal dissension and would imply to me that coaches and/or players are grumbling or arguing. That could mean Capers goes, but it could also mean restructuring at other levels of the coaching staff.

Yeah, I agree its not a lock that this is Capers. Could easily be the assistant coaches are coaching their individual islands with little coordination (Silverstein's piece last night was all about this). But this is just coded enough that it could mean literally anything.

[pbmax]

If I had to peg assistant coaches not getting along from game day evidence, it would be Perry and Whitt. But who can distinguish between mistakes and failure to grasp how the units work together?

Moss could be in there too.

[Bretsky]

it would be horrible if we kept Capers an let go of other GOATS

[denverYooper]

Yeah, I agree its not a lock that this is Capers. Could easily be the assistant coaches are coaching their individual islands with little coordination (Silverstein's piece last night was all about this). But this is just coded enough that it could mean literally anything.

There were two other tidbits of information out there this last week that were potentially interesting side channel information.

1 was a comment that Micah Hyde sent a thank you note to Perry after his pro bowl selection. Can't find the source atm.

The other was a remark from Casey Hayward on twitter:


Casey Hayward
‏Verified account @show_case29
Dec 19

Super happy for my brother @micah_hyde I'm proud of you bro. I guess we will be teammates once again lol. I'm glad you get to show your true skills with the Bills. love you bro.

I'm not sure that is so much a slight at the Packers coaching staff as that Hyde was the 3rd safety behind Burnett and HHCD.

[denverYooper]

I have a new theory, freshly retrieved from my posterior: what if Winston Moss is the problem? I don't mean that he is raising hell, I mean that maybe other coaches are resentful of his position

He's been the assistant HC for a number of years now but he seems to have the lowest developmental success rate. Martinez now seems to be coming along in the run game but is still a problem in the pass game. They got rid of Greene, who could be given some credit (along with a regimen of PED use) for early CM3 years and gave the OLB group to Moss. I would argue that the LB group has been the weakest link in the chain for a number of years.

Perry helped develop Burnett, HHCD, and perhaps Hyde into Pro Bowl/All Pro players.

Whitt developed Shields, Williams, Hayward House, Randall, and King ;).

Trgo has BJ Raji, Mike Daniels, Kenny Clark, maybe Dean Lowry (who was a developmental prospect at DE) under his belt.

Last, he was picked by M3 and not by Capers. The other coaches were Capers guys.

What if the negativity is that the other coaches are pissed about Moss's role given his relative underperformance? Maybe what shows up in the film room week after week is that his LBs are not getting pressure and messing up their assignments.

Just a thought...

[pbmax]

^ The coach on the other side of the ball who is friends with the HC is always a weird position to be in. Could be a source of friction whether there is something happening or not.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Trgo has BJ Raji, Mike Daniels, Kenny Clark, maybe Dean Lowry (who was a developmental prospect at DE) under his belt.

Speaking of Trgo, I wonder why he never got another chance as DC. With Carolina from 2003-2008 his defenses finished 10th, 15th, 5th, 8th, 15th, and 12th in points allowed (always in the top half) and in the top 9 in sacks in four of the six years.

[pbmax]

Speaking of Trgo, I wonder why he never got another chance as DC. With Carolina from 2003-2008 his defenses finished 10th, 15th, 5th, 8th, 15th, and 12th in points allowed (always in the top half) and in the top 9 in sacks in four of the six years.

He wanted out of the position. Didn't like the constant pressure. Wanted to go back to position coach.

[Iron Mike]

I'm on board with DC "retiring" this off season.....as of yet, no one has mentioned a possible replacement for him, though.

Let me throw out a few names, and tell me what you think.

--John Butler

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/1/11/14236628/john-butler-sean-mcdermott-bills-texans-assistant-ties-to-mcdermott-could-be-defensive-coordinator


--Perry Fewell

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article-JaguarsNews/Perry-Fewell-named-secondary-coach/15adcc3f-e2d1-4503-921f-178304271086


--Mike Pettine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/01/09/redskins-interview-former-browns-head-coach-mike-pettine-for-defensive-coordinator/?utm_term=.35a1124a46cd

Heh, heh, heh.....almost three weeks ago. :)