Thoughts On HC Mike McCarthy's Purge Of Packer Coaches. What makes any sense?

[woodbuck27]

https://www.totalpackers.com/2018/01/thoughts-purge-packers-coaches/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+totalpackers+%28Total+Packers %29

MORE THOUGHTS ON THE PURGE OF PACKERS’ COACHES

01/04/2018

Comment woodbuck27:

If you really want to see what your Green Bay Packer HC really is; then this article will give you a clear indication of what MM is really all about.

Posters here want to make an issue of people that see the TRUTH and what the mess the Green Bay Packers are in. The mess they have ended up being since their Super Bowl win (2010 Season). They want to say we are 'scapegoating' on this or that member of the Packer Brass; when it's simply a matter of us seeing it clearly and as a result knowing there needed to be huge changes. They almost got it right but unfortunately Mike McCarthy's day is in the near future and not out now.

We are not 'scapegoating' on anyone. We are Packer fans that simply want our beloved Packers to win a Super Bowl again, with a fine QB, or Aaron Rodgers in his prime years.

Here and reading (this LINK) is what 'scapegoating' is, and Packer Head Coach Mike McCarthy

As I've already declared it's perfectly obvious that Mike McCarthy knows how to save his own skin.:

I've a new Nickname for MM...Mike 'Scapegoating' McCarthy.

I'll again remind Y'all that kharma has her way of getting back at you. Mike McCarthy's day isn't far away if Packer CEO Mark Murphy doesn't get the Packers GM hire right.

[Pugger]

It appears both you and the author of this article in the link you posted don't care much for McCarthy. I can only think of a handful of assistants Mike had to fire for not producing. Perhaps Mike kept some of these guys around too long but eventually they leave. The other assistants that have left went on to other positions with other teams. So if McCarthy fires a coach when things go bad he's scapegoating them or is he just doing what a HC is supposed to do and relieve a guy of his duties if his charges play poorly? Or is it because you feel the main scapegoat here is the HC and he should be gone? Unless the GM or Murphy fire him he isn't going to fire himself so perhaps your frustrations are aimed in the wrong direction?

[woodbuck27]

Bumped for Bretsky to examine in regards to my criticisms of Mike McCarthy and on another Thread:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?30110-Mark-Murphy-is-as-useless-as-a-hind-TIT

Page 4.

[Bretsky]

Bumped for Bretsky to examine in regards to my criticisms of Mike McCarthy and on another Thread:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?30110-Mark-Murphy-is-as-useless-as-a-hind-TIT

Page 4.


I continue to think your packerrats mission to bash MM borders with nearly every post is somewhere in between an unfounded stretch to ridiculous

[woodbuck27]

I continue to think your packerrats mission to bash MM borders with nearly every post is somewhere in between an unfounded stretch to ridiculous

I see the TRUTH and Mike McCarthy clearly. He is the Weakest LINK. He'll be gone soon.

All the same:

I'll therefore remove my post content. I tried to demonstrate clearly why I have taken my stance VS Mike McCarthy. I took considerable time and attention to that to do so.

I appreciate the criticism. :pack:

[Bretsky]

OK I'll therefore remove my post content. I tried to demonstrate clearly why I have taken my stance VS Mike McCarthy. I took considerable time and attention to that to do so.

I appreciate the criticism. :pack:


I don't think it's valid. While I liked Edgar Bennett as a player MM offered him different jobs as both RB and WR coach and then promoted him to a job that to be honest I was never convinced he was qualified for. He did a lot for Bennett. And if he removed him as OC he has that right. And going back to Philbin was a no brainer. It's a head coached job to evaluate his staff. And I don't think he's a horrible person to concluded they are not doing a good enough job. I have a hard time using that logic against any head coach.

And I don't think there is anything with him sitting in on the GM search and offering his views, whether they are right or wrong. Mark Murphy could have told him to fly a kite and told him to mind his own business but he did not.

Record wise.....it's very obvious Hoody Genius is the best in the NFL.

Cases can definitely be made for Pete Carrol and Mike Tomlin being better coaches

And while I don't love MM by any means, it's tough to build a statistical case based on wins and losses.......or...even in looking at him as an OC versus when he let Tom Clement call play (trainwreck).....that he's a bad coach.

I have no issues with anybody hammering on MM for being too loyal to his assistants and keeping them around too long (Bob Saunders/Capers come to mind). That's a very common criticism...........but if you go that route (which I tend to agree with) then I certainly am not going to call him a hearless jerk for letting assistants go too fast.

And for the record....I can certainly agree with anybody who wants to light up MM for being too loyal/overestimating/not preparing Huntley to replace Rodgers. MM is not w/o fault; he has plenty

But I don't think he's a terrible human being, and I don't think the numbers lead to him being a horrible head coach

[Zool]

And while I don't love MM by any means, it's tough to build a statistical case based on wins and losses.......or...even in looking at him as an OC versus when he let Tom Clement call play (trainwreck).....that he's a bad coach.

Some people will argue in the opposite for Sherman/Farve. Rodgers and MM are linked together in success. Saying one would be bad without the other is short sighted and cherry picking to prove your own point.

[mraynrand]

Some people will argue in the opposite for Sherman/Farve. Rodgers and MM are linked together in success. Saying one would be bad without the other is short sighted and cherry picking to prove your own point.

Their development is linked. Rodgers would be successful elsewhere. Stubby would likely be successful elsewhere, depending on whether the QB and personnel he was molding had sufficient inherent talent.

The conundrum is that very very few QBs will be successful because of some system when they themselves are awful, regardless of coach. The Woodbuck mistake (and those like him here and elsewhere) is always to think that Rodgers is an independent creation, who dropped into Stubby's lap fully formed and competent. Both developed together and as that happened, Stubby made adjustments to accommodate Rodger's skills, and Rodgers became highly proficient in the offense Stubby constructed with him. I have no problem believing Stubby couldn't do the same for the next QB prospect, and that Rodgers couldn't go to another team and adapt to and alter their scheme to be successful, limited of course by his now relatively old NFL body.

[George Cumby]

Their development is linked. Rodgers would be successful elsewhere. Stubby would likely be successful elsewhere, depending on whether the QB and personnel he was molding had sufficient inherent talent.

The conundrum is that very very few QBs will be successful because of some system when they themselves are awful, regardless of coach. The Woodbuck mistake (and those like him here and elsewhere) is always to think that Rodgers is an independent creation, who dropped into Stubby's lap fully formed and competent. Both developed together and as that happened, Stubby made adjustments to accommodate Rodger's skills, and Rodgers became highly proficient in the offense Stubby constructed with him. I have no problem believing Stubby couldn't do the same for the next QB prospect, and that Rodgers couldn't go to another team and adapt to and alter their scheme to be successful, limited of course by his now relatively old NFL body.

Right, look at most of the great championship teams, there is almost always a dynamic synergy between HC and QB. It's not always tea and crumpets, the relationship is complex, multi layered and nuanced. Starr and Lombardi, Landry and Staubach, Noll and Bradshaw, Montana and what's his name (ugh, my memory), johnson and Aikman, etc. if Rodgers had been drafted early in the first and thrown into action his rookie year, he'd be another example of a Tedford QB that couldn't cut it in the NFL.

[Tony Oday]

MM must have slapped Woodbucks kid or something.

[woodbuck27]

Their development is linked. Rodgers would be successful elsewhere. Stubby would likely be successful elsewhere, depending on whether the QB and personnel he was molding had sufficient inherent talent.

The conundrum is that very very few QBs will be successful because of some system when they themselves are awful, regardless of coach. The Woodbuck mistake (and those like him here and elsewhere) is always to think that Rodgers is an independent creation, who dropped into Stubby's lap fully formed and competent. Both developed together and as that happened, Stubby made adjustments to accommodate Rodger's skills, and Rodgers became highly proficient in the offense Stubby constructed with him. I have no problem believing Stubby couldn't do the same for the next QB prospect, and that Rodgers couldn't go to another team and adapt to and alter their scheme to be successful, limited of course by his now relatively old NFL body.

This isn't a woodbuck27 mistake or 'a mistake' by any other Packerrat or (Green Bay Packer knowledgeable fan) that see's all things Packers and 'the forest for the trees'.

This is the TRUTH:

https://coachch.weebly.com/uploads/5/7/9/6/57963593/16capture_1_orig.jpg

This Graph indicates a Green Bay Packers MM/Aaron Rodgers Led Offense, now in a CLEAR Free Fall.

:pack:

[mraynrand]

Alternatively you could look as 2011 as an outlier and 2013 and 2017 as obvious down years due to Rodgers’ injuries. But mostly it’s flat. Even 2010 was barely better than 2015, which was considered a down year.

What might be useful is to overlay that graph on a 32 color graph with all other NFL teams.

[woodbuck27]

MM must have slapped Woodbucks kid or something.

No.Mike McCarthy might 'in fact' be a wonderful man and all else NOT Green Bay Packers.

I'm an analytical Green Bay Packer fan, that simply looks at the obvious weakness in Mike McCarthy in too many respects. I see clearly what he doesn't have and anything even approaching the greatness too many applaud him as having.

Without Aaron Rodgers as his QB his Won-Loss Record is plain UGLY.

In what I see and my TRUTH and analysis;

Packers HC Mike McCarthy is a certain observable 'Weak Link' and Aaron Rodgers and the Green Bay Packers winning another Super Bowl Ring.

MM rides on Aaron Rodgers Coattails. M3's record without Aaron Rodgers starting at QB and since the Packers last Super Bowl win, is 5 -10 -1 ...or taking that Tie Vs Minny in the 2013 Season (as a 1/2 or 0.5 Win) Let's make M3's record without Aaron Rodgers starting for the Packers @ 5.5 W and 10.5 L

It is what it is Packerrats. :-)

Without Aaron Rodgers Mike McCarthy has an abysmal 0.34375 Record.

That's not any indication of a NFL Head Coach and anything even marginally approaching greatness.

If you take all games and MM without Aaron Rodgers the record slips to 5 - 11 and One Tie or 5-11-1 and now Mike McCarthy's Winning Percentage is lowered to 0.32353 ! and .... That's Bad !

What it does describe is that Mike McCarthy is just very ordinary as an NFL Head Coach. That supports my position that Mike McCarthy is the weakest LINK.

[Carolina_Packer]

Clear free fall is hyperbole. I've told you a million times never to exaggerate!

When Rodgers got hurt this year, if you look at the trend of the offense going back to "run the table", it was going well, so I'm not sure where this idea of a free fall comes from. The only free fall I saw was A-Rod's when Anthony Barr bear hugged him and drove his shoulder into the ground. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not their own facts.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'm with Woodbuck.

McCarthy's not as good as he thinks he is. Take away Favre and Rodgers, and McCarthy is nothing but a Marty Mornhinweg clone. In New Orleans, McCarthy turned Aaron Brooks into a turnover machine. In SF, he shot Alex Smith's confidence. In GB, he oversaw Hundley's devolution from an inspiration into a carbon copy of Deshone Kizer in just 3 years. Hell, Flynn had his best game as a Packer with Rodgers calling the plays.

Murphy should've traded McCarthy to the Browns.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

No.Mike McCarthy might 'in fact' be a wonderful man and all else NOT Green Bay Packers.

I'm an analytical Green Bay Packer fan, that simply looks at the obvious weakness in Mike McCarthy in too many respects. I see clearly what he doesn't have and anything even approaching the greatness too many applaud him as having.

Without Aaron Rodgers as his QB his Won-Loss Record is plain UGLY.

In what I see and my TRUTH and analysis;

Packers HC Mike McCarthy is a certain observable 'Weak Link' and Aaron Rodgers and the Green Bay Packers winning another Super Bowl Ring.

MM rides on Aaron Rodgers Coattails. M3's record without Aaron Rodgers starting at QB is 5 -10 -1 ...or taking that Tie Vs Minny in the 2013 Season (as a 1/2 or 0.5 Win) Let's make M3's record without Aaron Rodgers starting for the Packers @ 5.5 W and 10.5 L

It is what it is Packerrats. :-)

Without Aaron Rodgers Mike McCarthy has an abysmal 0.34375 Record.

That's not any indication of a NFL Head Coach and anything even marginally approaching greatness.

What it does describe is that Mike McCarthy is just very ordinary as an NFL Head Coach. That supports my position that Mike McCarthy is the weakest LINK.

:glug:

[Fritz]

I don't think it's "valid". While I liked Edgar Bennett as a player MM offered him different "jobs" as both RB and WR coach and then PROMOTED HIM to a job that to be honest I was never convinced he WAS qualified for. He did a lot for "Bennett." And if he removed him as OC he has that right. And going back to PHILBIN was a no brainer. It's a head coached job to evaluate his staff. And I don't think he's a "horrible person" to concluded THEY ARE NOT DOING A GOOD ENOUGH job. I have a hard time using that logic against any HEAD COACH.


And for the record....I can certainly agree with anybody who wants to light up MM for being too loyal/overestimating/not preparing Huntley to replace Rodgers. MM is not w/o fault; he has plenty

But I don't think he's a terrible human being, and I don't think the numbers lead to him being a horrible head coach

Bretsky, if you're going to go toe-to-toe with Woody, you've got to learn the style. I tried to help you out above.

For the record, I'm in the unusual and slightly awkward position of agreeing in part with Woodbuck and Anti-Polar. It's the bit you wrote about MM not having Hundley ready. The guy sat and watched and trained for the very moment into which he was thrust, and he simply pooped the bed. Like, diarrhea-splattered the bed.

MM's calling card is his work with QB's. That is his foundation for the claim he's a fine head coach - as others pointed out above, he gets a lot of credit for helping Rodgers develop into the All-World QB that he is.

So for me, the fact that MM didn't have Hundley ready, and couldn't figure out a good game plan to use for Hundley ("we're going to run a lot . . . no, wait, we're going to put the game on Hundley's arm") is a serious, serious indictment.

He had TWO YEARS. QB school or no, he said over and over that Hundley was his guy, and obviously Hundley was his guy for the very situation into which he was put. This was no Seneca Wallace story; MM put his money on and his time into Hundley. And Hundley was bad, in an epic way.

To me, MM is becoming increasingly arrogant yet does not have the results with Hundley to back it up. And he's becoming more public about his arrogance, which is the real sin here.

[woodbuck27]

Clear free fall is hyperbole. I've told you a million times never to exaggerate!

When Rodgers got hurt this year, if you look at the trend of the offense going back to "run the table", it was going well, so I'm not sure where this idea of a free fall comes from. The only free fall I saw was A-Rod's when Anthony Barr bear hugged him and drove his shoulder into the ground. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not their own facts.

I back up my positions with clear analysis using clear Math that doesn't support mere opinion.

That trumps just having an opinion. :idea:

[Cobra Kai]

To me, MM is becoming increasingly arrogant yet does not have the results with Hundley to back it up. And he's becoming more public about his arrogance, which is the real sin here.

:bclap: case and point... "Let's state the facts, I'm a highly successful NFL coach"

I'd bet any money that the only reason MM reports directly to Murphy now is to stroke his big fat giant ego. No doubt that whenever MM leaves or gets the boot, BG or whomever is GM then will have full control over the next coach.

[gbgary]

well...MM's going into put up or shut up period. extending one year was good in that doing so took employment status pressure away so it's totally football. got a feeling that unless it's a SB title next year he's out.

[KYPack]

Bretsky, if you're going to go toe-to-toe with Woody, you've got to learn the style. I tried to help you out above.

For the record, I'm in the unusual and slightly awkward position of agreeing in part with Woodbuck and Anti-Polar. It's the bit you wrote about MM not having Hundley ready. The guy sat and watched and trained for the very moment into which he was thrust, and he simply pooped the bed. Like, diarrhea-splattered the bed.

MM's calling card is his work with QB's. That is his foundation for the claim he's a fine head coach - as others pointed out above, he gets a lot of credit for helping Rodgers develop into the All-World QB that he is.

So for me, the fact that MM didn't have Hundley ready, and couldn't figure out a good game plan to use for Hundley ("we're going to run a lot . . . no, wait, we're going to put the game on Hundley's arm") is a serious, serious indictment.

He had TWO YEARS. QB school or no, he said over and over that Hundley was his guy, and obviously Hundley was his guy for the very situation into which he was put. This was no Seneca Wallace story; MM put his money on and his time into Hundley. And Hundley was bad, in an epic way.

To me, MM is becoming increasingly arrogant yet does not have the results with Hundley to back it up. And he's becoming more public about his arrogance, which is the real sin here.

Times a thousand.

MM mismanaged this whole Hundley deal to the max. The biggest beef I had was his gameplan for Hundley. His plays were cut to the bone. If you are gonna play a guy, play him. MM has to take the blame for this whole debacle. He gave Hundley the backup spot, it was a key job. Big Mac must've seen the flaws in Brett 2's game. He screwed this up on his watch.

All that said, Are all you guys going to insist that they can McCarthy, like, NOW?

Have the Goot hire a new coach for his first gig?

We know you don't like 'ol MM, but nobody wants to hear you guys bleat about McCarthy for a year or whatever.

[woodbuck27]

Bretsky, if you're going to go toe-to-toe with Woody, you've got to learn the style. I tried to help you out above.

For the record, I'm in the unusual and slightly awkward position of agreeing in part with Woodbuck and Anti-Polar. It's the bit you wrote about MM not having Hundley ready. The guy sat and watched and trained for the very moment into which he was thrust, and he simply pooped the bed. Like, diarrhea-splattered the bed.

MM's calling card is his work with QB's. That is his foundation for the claim he's a fine head coach - as others pointed out above, he gets a lot of credit for helping Rodgers develop into the All-World QB that he is.

So for me, the fact that MM didn't have Hundley ready, and couldn't figure out a good game plan to use for Hundley ("we're going to run a lot . . . no, wait, we're going to put the game on Hundley's arm") is a serious, serious indictment.

He had TWO YEARS. QB school or no, he said over and over that Hundley was his guy, and obviously Hundley was his guy for the very situation into which he was put. This was no Seneca Wallace story; MM put his money on and his time into Hundley. And Hundley was bad, in an epic way.

To me, MM is becoming increasingly arrogant yet does not have the results with Hundley to back it up. And he's becoming more public about his arrogance, which is the real sin here.

This is 'a Forum' and FREE Speech is the essence of a person's right to express him/herself.

Since the Regular Season ended; Mike McCarthy has certainly been in dire PANIC Mode. The evidence of that is now overwhelmingly pointing to that TRUTH.

He had TT write his ticket to the end of the 2019 Season or got that 1 year extension that gave him 'a necessary Safety Net. After that why not simply relax until the announcement was finally made, that TT was going to be reassigned; then wait until a replacement for Packer GM was finalized?

All this Rumour and MM waffling and flopping around like a beached whale. He'll quit as Packer Head Coach if that Guy is the GM. He needs this and that for ' HIS Correct FIT'. Is over the TOP too much noise from a Head Coach. When the TOP Packer Priority now was who was going to be the next Packer GM or his BOSS.

** MM needed to demonstrate some confidence in 'the Packer Way and Process' that would get the correct MAN in place as Packer GM. He's always telling us about 'the Packer Way' and 'the Packer Process' in place to ensure that it gets to RIGHT. Why was he hitting the PANIC BUTTON? Does a competent clear headed Leader act that way?

** MM needed to simply get himself into a position to interview the best qualified candidate for his next Defensive Coordinator. He might have realized that to make the best decision, it would be expedient that the NEW Packer GM was named.

** MM needed to see where he needed to upgrade hos Coaching Staff and NOT necessarily downgrade it. If you examine his decisions there to date it's obvious he made questionable decisions and Coaching Dismissals. I strongly believe that MM hurt himself a lot since this Season ended and TRUST.

Mike McCarthy simply demonstrated exactly what he is and isn't; and what it takes to be a Head Coach of a legitimate Super Bowl contender in the Prime Years and Aaron Rodgers.

Mike McCarthy acted to save his own skin, and in so doing, turned out looking like his own worst enemy.

[Fritz]

Times a thousand.

MM mismanaged this whole Hundley deal to the max. The biggest beef I had was his gameplan for Hundley. His plays were cut to the bone. If you are gonna play a guy, play him. MM has to take the blame for this whole debacle. He gave Hundley the backup spot, it was a key job. Big Mac must've seen the flaws in Brett 2's game. He screwed this up on his watch.

All that said, Are all you guys going to insist that they can McCarthy, like, NOW?

Have the Goot hire a new coach for his first gig?

We know you don't like 'ol MM, but nobody wants to hear you guys bleat about McCarthy for a year or whatever.


Come on, KY, you're an old hand around here. You know the routine. I'm going to beat up on Mikey-Mike all offseason, but if the Packers start winning, I'll quiet my criticism, amping it up only when they lose. IF the Packers win it all, I'll trumpet about what a great coach MM is, and how I knew it all along.

[Rutnstrut]

Come on, KY, you're an old hand around here. You know the routine. I'm going to beat up on Mikey-Mike all offseason, but if the Packers start winning, I'll quiet my criticism, amping it up only when they lose. IF the Packers win it all, I'll trumpet about what a great coach MM is, and how I knew it all along.

Not Me. I'll go on record as saying I'm lukewarm about stubby whether he wins or loses. I don't think he's the worst coach, but he's far from the best.

[Zool]

This isn't a woodbuck27 mistake or 'a mistake' by any other Packerrat or (Green Bay Packer knowledgeable fan) that see's all things Packers and 'the forest for the trees'.

This is the TRUTH:

https://coachch.weebly.com/uploads/5/7/9/6/57963593/16capture_1_orig.jpg

This Graph indicates a Green Bay Packers MM/Aaron Rodgers Led Offense, now in a CLEAR Free Fall.

:pack:

Well then I say this data clearly shows that Rodgers is in decline and can no longer cut it at the NFL level despite what the coaches are doing to help him.

Or ,since Rodgers calls most of the plays at the line, his ability to call plays that put them in scoring position is severely lacking.

Or, lets grab some sack numbers and say his inability to escape pressure is what is causing the down tick in production.

See, I can use the available data to support a completely different opinion. Data does not equal fact. Data is just data.

[woodbuck27]

Come on, KY, you're an old hand around here. You know the routine. I'm going to beat up on Mikey-Mike all offseason, but if the Packers start winning, I'll quiet my criticism, amping it up only when they lose. IF the Packers win it all, I'll trumpet about what a great coach MM is, and how I knew it all along.

I'm simply and over the TOP disgusted with Packer Head Coach Mike McCarthy.

At the same time, 'the fact' he keeps escaping dismissal, in spite his incompetence and scapegoating negative personality is somewhat intriguing.

https://coachch.weebly.com/uploads/5/7/9/6/57963593/17capture_1_orig.jpg

Murphy/Thompson/McCarthy/Capers have had 4 of their 9 teams statistically in the hunt.

** 3 of those 4 were in the 09 – ’11 Seasons.

** In the last 4 Seasons just one team, ** the “Seattle-meltdown-team-of-2014”, was statistically a Super Bowl Team. That alone might have gotten MM ready for being FIRED !

** Mike McCarthy's head wasn't in the game that day. Are we really expecting that to change and 'the REALLY BIG GAME " or are we going with some LAW Of Averages?!?

[woodbuck27]

Well then I say this data clearly shows that Rodgers is in decline and can no longer cut it at the NFL level despite what the coaches are doing to help him.

Or ,since Rodgers calls most of the plays at the line, his ability to call plays that put them in scoring position is severely lacking.

Or, lets grab some sack numbers and say his inability to escape pressure is what is causing the down tick in production.

See, I can use the available data to support a completely different opinion. Data does not equal fact. Data is just data.

OK Zool ! :-)

What do you prefer the 2011 Season Packer Offense or the 2015-16 Season Offenses?

Twist those FACTS around Zool. :huh:

[mraynrand]

Murphy should've traded McCarthy to the Browns.

Cleveland didn't have a roll of tape to spare.

[mraynrand]

Not Me. I'll go on record as saying I'm lukewarm about stubby whether he wins or loses. I don't think he's the worst coach, but he's far from the best.

exactly. If the Packers win now, you all will dig in and say it's in spite of Stubby. :)

[KYPack]

Come on, KY, you're an old hand around here. You know the routine. I'm going to beat up on Mikey-Mike all offseason, but if the Packers start winning, I'll quiet my criticism, amping it up only when they lose. IF the Packers win it all, I'll trumpet about what a great coach MM is, and how I knew it all along.

My bad, Fritz. I meant to yell at Woody.

Actually, I wanted to revive the old Bob Harlan model.

Fire both of 'em and have that GM build the whole organization over again. it worked with Wolf.

The new GM keeping the old coach failed with TT keeping Sherm around for that year.

Renew, start afresh with new blood is my motto.

Now that they've screwed that up, wait and see what MM does to save that job.

[mraynrand]

The new GM keeping the old coach failed with TT keeping Sherm around for that year.

I saw that differently. That was tough on 'ol Sherm, but it didn't fail - except by design. Thompson came in and changed the whole structure, and Sherm was the fall guy. You bring in a new coach in that year while you're scuttling the roster to bring back cap responsibility and re-stock the shelves and that coach takes it on the chin for no reason. Also, Shermy was a winning coach and GM, and it's easier to fire him as coach after a rotten year, than after making the playoffs 4 straight years as GM and Coach. Plus, wasn't it Harlan who came up with that plan after Hatley croaked? Maybe the same thing is happening with Stubby. If he's really a good coach, he'll find a way to win this next year, possibly as the organization goes in a new direction. If he fails, then you can bring in the new guy. The only problem with that scenario, if true, is recruiting assistant coaches who believe they may be gone in a year too. What say you? Think assistants will bail, or trust in Stubby/BG/Murphy/Ball?

[Carolina_Packer]

This is his prove it year in red letters. I am not in the Woody camp of wanting him gone yesterday. If the Packers have some better luck with player injuries next year, they sign some key players, they have some younger guys make a jump, Rodgers stays healthy, and the D improves enough to hold up their end of the bargain, then I think you'll see years more like 2014 and 2011, rather than up and down years like 2015 and 2016, save for the run the table to save the season.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Sherman the GM got Sherman the coach fired.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, if you're going to go toe-to-toe with Woody, you've got to learn the style. I tried to help you out above.

For the record, I'm in the unusual and slightly awkward position of agreeing in part with Woodbuck and Anti-Polar. It's the bit you wrote about MM not having Hundley ready. The guy sat and watched and trained for the very moment into which he was thrust, and he simply pooped the bed. Like, diarrhea-splattered the bed.

MM's calling card is his work with QB's. That is his foundation for the claim he's a fine head coach - as others pointed out above, he gets a lot of credit for helping Rodgers develop into the All-World QB that he is.

So for me, the fact that MM didn't have Hundley ready, and couldn't figure out a good game plan to use for Hundley ("we're going to run a lot . . . no, wait, we're going to put the game on Hundley's arm") is a serious, serious indictment.

He had TWO YEARS. QB school or no, he said over and over that Hundley was his guy, and obviously Hundley was his guy for the very situation into which he was put. This was no Seneca Wallace story; MM put his money on and his time into Hundley. And Hundley was bad, in an epic way.

To me, MM is becoming increasingly arrogant yet does not have the results with Hundley to back it up. And he's becoming more public about his arrogance, which is the real sin here.


I have no goal to go vs. Woody.....I like Woody......we just agree to disagree on many things with MM

I do agree he did a terrible job after AROD went down and the lack of quality play from Huntley is all on MM

[KYPack]

I saw that differently. That was tough on 'ol Sherm, but it didn't fail - except by design. Thompson came in and changed the whole structure, and Sherm was the fall guy. You bring in a new coach in that year while you're scuttling the roster to bring back cap responsibility and re-stock the shelves and that coach takes it on the chin for no reason. Also, Shermy was a winning coach and GM, and it's easier to fire him as coach after a rotten year, than after making the playoffs 4 straight years as GM and Coach. Plus, wasn't it Harlan who came up with that plan after Hatley croaked? Maybe the same thing is happening with Stubby. If he's really a good coach, he'll find a way to win this next year, possibly as the organization goes in a new direction. If he fails, then you can bring in the new guy. The only problem with that scenario, if true, is recruiting assistant coaches who believe they may be gone in a year too. What say you? Think assistants will bail, or trust in Stubby/BG/Murphy/Ball?
Bob Harlan royally screwed the pooch by giving the coach/GM gig to the Sherm. No coach can function as half a GM (Cepting B Beli) they will always opt for short term solutions over long term strategies. I hope that in all this fury of the new GM, MM didn't get his finger in the personnel pie. That can be ruinous to a team.

Maybe MM is Goot's "buffer". Goot has a year or two with Stubby, then can make his move.

The asst's?, they will ignore the swirl in GB to get an NFL job. Maybe a Pettine type can get a shot at the big chair that way.

[Zool]

OK Zool ! :-)

What do you prefer the 2011 Season Packer Offense or the 2015-16 Season Offenses?

Twist those FACTS around Zool. :huh:

Both, unless I can find stats that support my current feeling, then I’ll pick neither.

[mraynrand]

The asst's?, they will ignore the swirl in GB to get an NFL job. Maybe a Pettine type can get a shot at the big chair that way.


The only problem with that scenario, if true, is recruiting assistant coaches who believe they may be gone in a year too.

OMG, maybe the only assistant Stubby can get is a guy who is used to be canned after just one year....

[pbmax]

OMG, maybe the only assistant Stubby can get is a guy who is used to be canned after just one year....

Just keep swapping resources with the Browns then. They are used to different job titles week to week.

[mraynrand]

Just keep swapping resources with the Browns then. They are used to different job titles week to week.

lol

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Cleveland didn't have a roll of tape to spare.

The fucking Browns have plenty of draft capitals. Before Lewis signed his extension, they should've traded Hue Jackson to the Bengals. And then trade for McCarthy.

Packers, after trading McCarthy, would then hire J-Mac to run the whole shebang.

[Bretsky]

The fucking Browns have plenty of draft capitals. Before Lewis signed his extension, they should've traded Hue Jackson to the Bengals. And then trade for McCarthy.

Packers, after trading McCarthy, would then hire J-Mac to run the whole shebang.


The Packers then should have traded for Hoody Genius....or hired Hoody Genius Jr

[pbmax]

The Packers then should have traded for Hoody Genius....or hired Hoody Genius Jr

Patricia will be the guy who makes it, not McDaniels.

[woodbuck27]

My bad, Fritz. I meant to yell at Woody.

Actually, I wanted to revive the old Bob Harlan model.

Fire both of 'em and have that GM build the whole organization over again. it worked with Wolf.

The new GM keeping the old coach failed with TT keeping Sherm around for that year.

Renew, start afresh with new blood is my motto.

Now that they've screwed that up, wait and see what MM does to save that job.

Come on KY you know my MO.

I'll analyze and try to make my points (*** in the unfriendly confines of Packerrats ***) for 10 days to 2 weeks after the Season ends. Why do I do that? I do that because I don't simply represent my personal views. I hope to represent what Packer Nation should see, and thus ask to be corrected.

*** I understand the bad feelings certain Packerrats have towards me. I know I've been clearly judged:

A stupid Canuck 'a no nothing small 'p' Packer fan ( compared to anyone who ever pissed on land in Wisconsin ). A Packerrat that hardly should be respected as anyone who might even possibly see, 'the forest for the trees'.

I've 'stood TALL' under all that certain prejudice against me . I've done that (for about a dozen years) and Packerrats Members that decided I must be taken down. I just do my thing. I contribute to Packerrats (I hope) as much that's really positive in total; over my negativity towards 'the Rah Rah Cool Aid Crowd'. Some things never change and I'll never aspire to ' cowardice and THE TRUTH', and hatred and /or prejudice.

I'll never act like certain silly ass'd 'White Collar's' here. Trumpeting their obvious frustration with me; carrying it around like used toilet paper. Shouting out for all to see.."Look at me. Look at just how really stupid I am." There's no need for an idiot watch at Packerrats. Their the Members here that bear everything but the signs of decency and shame. Compare their Signatures to mine, and you'll see a certain discrepancy KY. I wouldn't want to be and I'll NEVER be them. :no:

At Packerrats I'm simply one of 'a growing crowd'. A crowd with another voice.

I'm a voice here, that balances the voices of those that really believe all is well and Green Bay Packers.They've been trumpeting their voices now for the last seven Season's and they've been wrong. We're now seeing the poor influence that the Team of Packer President and CEO Mark Murphy and past GM Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy have had on Packer Nation and celebrating another Super Bowl, since the 2010 Season. It's been Seven (7) too long years and no NFC Championship. Forget NO Lombardi Trophy !

Favre never got as much as he needed after the single Super Bowl win in the 1990's and and it took 14 long years for a repeat with another certain to become HOF QB in Aaron Rodgers. Arguably, Aaron Rodgers might be the finest and most athletic QB in NFL history and the Packers have won one NFC Championship and a Super Bowl with him . That's plainly screwed up.

At least now and finally, after the PROCESS and hiring another GM to replace Ted Thompson, who's being thrown under the bus as a GM that 'wasn't all in and getting it done. Being fair I qualify that ( given the circumstantial evidence ) as we are discovering it and mainly due to Mike McCarthy's 'flapping lips'. :-).

So KY:

There's a whole lot we see going on as The Packer BRASS attempts to set the Packer Nation Ship back on some really positive course to winning OUR next Super Bowl... 'OUR Lombardi ' Trophy'. I'll add this. What's with all this EGO driven BS and Packerrats? Don't we all desire that same reward? Another Super Bowl Victory?

Given that I believe that's the case and our most realistic purpose. Why cant we RELAX the obvious prejudice and jealousy and here? I'll never lower myself to your level. YOU know who 'YOU' are. I feel sad for your frustrations. :-)

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The Packers then should have traded for Hoody Genius....or hired Hoody Genius Jr

J-Mac is hip-hop for Josh McDaniels. :)

I'm all for J-Mac running the whole shebang as GM/HC. The math is simple: Elite QB + Belichickism = Super Bowl Victories

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Patricia will be the guy who makes it, not McDaniels.

I don't understand the love for Patricia. I mean, it's not NE's D is or has ever been great.

Yes, J-Mac has TB12, but he's a damn good strategist.

[Fritz]

My bad, Fritz. I meant to yell at Woody.

Actually, I wanted to revive the old Bob Harlan model.

Fire both of 'em and have that GM build the whole organization over again. it worked with Wolf.

The new GM keeping the old coach failed with TT keeping Sherm around for that year.

Renew, start afresh with new blood is my motto.

Now that they've screwed that up, wait and see what MM does to save that job.


In the end, being a Packer fan I'll be rooting for them to win it all, so if that happens or if they have a great run in the next couple years, I'll let go of my MikeHate.

I agree with you that I don't like this Frankenbacker approach to the front office. There's too much room now for shananigans and back room intrigue.

But maybe it will work. I suppose we'll wait and see, and while we're waiting, I'll have to reconsider my avatar now that Ted has tottered off into the sunset to watch Morgan State play Eastern New Mexico State so he can get a look at that left tackle who transferred from UCLA.

[pbmax]

I don't understand the love for Patricia. I mean, it's not NE's D is or has ever been great.

Yes, J-Mac has TB12, but he's a damn good strategist.

That's some good spin on two bottles that are exactly half full.

[Bretsky]

Patricia will be the guy who makes it, not McDaniels.

Just curious; why do you feel that way ?
Patrcia is fine but I've never viewed NE defense as being any better than the talent

[pbmax]

Just curious; why do you feel that way ?
Patrcia is fine but I've never viewed NE defense as being any better than the talent

They don't get overwhelmed or blown out. They always have a backup plan and an adjustment. They will triple team a red zone threat to take him away.

That defense, even in its lean years, always keeps them in games. Even when they were rebuilding it didn't melt down like the Packers could.

McDaniels years with adversity got him fired for drafting Tebow early.

[SudsMcBucky]

This isn't a woodbuck27 mistake or 'a mistake' by any other Packerrat or (Green Bay Packer knowledgeable fan) that see's all things Packers and 'the forest for the trees'.

This is the TRUTH:

https://coachch.weebly.com/uploads/5/7/9/6/57963593/16capture_1_orig.jpg

This Graph indicates a Green Bay Packers MM/Aaron Rodgers Led Offense, now in a CLEAR Free Fall.

:pack:

Help me understand this graph. For 2017, you have an AR/MM led offense averaging 20 pts per game. I calculate 26.8 pts/game.

[mraynrand]

Help me understand this graph. For 2017, you have an AR/MM led offense averaging 20 pts per game. I calculate 26.8 pts/game.

And 30.6 for 2013. But Woody isn't interested in presenting an objective view, just cherry picking to fit his narrative. Hmmm..what does that remind me of...

[Joemailman]

Help me understand this graph. For 2017, you have an AR/MM led offense averaging 20 pts per game. I calculate 26.8 pts/game.

The graph indicates ppg for the whole season. It was 27 ppg when Rodgers started, but 20 ppg overall. By AR/MM led offense, I assume they mean since 2009. Not sure why they didn't include 2008.

[mraynrand]

The graph indicates ppg for the whole season. It was 27 ppg when Rodgers started, but 20 ppg overall. By AR/MM led offense, I assume they mean since 2009. Not sure why they didn't include 2008.

yes we know this. The Graph is deliberately inaccurate.

[SudsMcBucky]

The graph indicates ppg for the whole season. It was 27 ppg when Rodgers started, but 20 ppg overall. By AR/MM led offense, I assume they mean since 2009. Not sure why they didn't include 2008.

Ok, but your graph is specifically titled an AR/MM led offense. That's NOT accurate.

[mraynrand]

This Graph indicates a Green Bay Packers MM/Aaron Rodgers Led Offense, now in a CLEAR Free Fall.[/COLOR]

:pack:

This is Woodcock's exact quote; his interpretation of the graph. The point isn't so much the inaccuracy of the graph (that is whether the graph was meant to be misleading or not), but how that inaccuracy leads to guys like woodblock drawing incorrect conclusions.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I know nothing about these coaches. But firing so many smells of desperation. These guys are long-time McCarthyites. How the fuck did they all become incompetent underneath the chief's nose? Isn't the guy at top the problem?

[Harlan Huckleby]

BTW, I checked in here at the Mother Ship because I saw on twitter that Packer coaches are moving en masse to the Browns. Is that true or speculation or do you care?

[mraynrand]

I know nothing about these coaches. But firing so many smells of desperation. These guys are long-time McCarthyites. How the fuck did they all become incompetent underneath the chief's nose? Isn't the guy at top the problem?

Until proven otherwise, yes. You can't have a purge of this extent without conceding some level of incompetence in coaching evaluation. Still, some got other jobs, so it isn't all personnel evaluation incompetence by Stubby. Some incompetence can be attributed to poor people management by Stubby too.

Of course, this is all at Packer-level competence, the baseline of which is set higher than many other organizations.

[mraynrand]

BTW, I checked in here at the Mother Ship because I saw on twitter that Packer coaches are moving en masse to the Browns. Is that true or speculation or do you care?

The Browns saw a well-oiled machine on Dec. 12th and want to emulate it.

[Joemailman]

Ok, but your graph is specifically titled an AR/MM led offense. That's NOT accurate.

Wait a minute. When did it become MY graph?:huh:

[woodbuck27]

Help me understand this graph. For 2017, you have an AR/MM led offense averaging 20 pts per game. I calculate 26.8 pts/game.

That Graph was used from a source and is accurate in terms of how the Packers Total Offense Performed in 2017 and back to the 2009 Season.

It's not calculated then drawn specifically (just for games that Aaron Rodgers) played.

From PRO FOOTBALL Reference the 2017 Season:

Points For: Total Points at 320 (20.0/g) or Ranked 21st in the NFL.


https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2017.htm

[woodbuck27]

Ok, but your graph is specifically titled an AR/MM led offense. That's NOT accurate.

That Graph wasn't created by anyone here at Packerrats.com. That Graph comes from an outside of Packerrats source.

Of course, that Graph for Seasons 2013 and 2017 would look differently, if it was draw to specifically determine the MM and Aaron Rodgers led Packer 'O'.

The Packer 'O' performs much better with Aaron Rodgers behind Center.

[ThunderDan]

That Graph wasn't created by anyone here at Packerrats.com. That Graph comes from an outside of Packerrats source.

And yet somehow, someone posted it on Packerratd. A misleading/mislabeled graph. Then that person at Packerrats said that proved that the Packer O with AR is slipping,

I wonder who that was?

[mraynrand]

It's not calculated then drawn specifically (just for games that Aaron Rodgers) played. Of course, that Graph for Seasons 2013 and 2017 would look differently, if it was draw to specifically determine the MM and Aaron Rodgers led Packer 'O'.


Exactly. There is no free fall for MM/AR led offense as you asserted from the start. You just got this one wrong.

[woodbuck27]

And yet somehow, someone posted it on Packerratd. A misleading/mislabeled graph. Then that person at Packerrats said that proved that the Packer O with AR is slipping,

I wonder who that was?

If you absolutely need to whine about how the Author (s) of that Graph labeled it that's just who you are. :???:

I'll stick with what the Author (s) of that Graph claimed as the main argument and a Packers declining Offense.since it's Hey Days back in the 2011 Season. Take Aaron Rodgers away from the Mike McCarthy HC Offense and it's significant what Aaron Rodgers NOT Mike McCarthy means to the success of the Green Bay Packers.:

Both the Packers 'Offensive' NFL Ranking and Pts/gm are trending in the wrong direction (Points down and ranking sliding toward yellow). It is also alarming, just how much better the Offense was the last time Rodgers was injured and lost significant games (2013) than it was in this past Season 2017.

I support that position: My position isn't 'hardly', an indictment of Aaron Rodgers.

My position is clearly aimed at Packers HC Mike McCarthy, as not being the outstanding Offensive Play Caller; nor 'the QB Whisperer' that some Packer fans insist he is.

Packers Offense NFL Ranking:

2017 Rank 21st ... See Ranking in Season 2013 or the last Season when Aaron Rodgers missed significant games The decline here is significant.

MM's backup QB that he had considerable confidence in is Brett Hundley.That game after game Mike McCarthy refused to blame for any and every Packer loss as Hundley went 3-6 and 1-5 at Lambeau Field. The games at Lambeau Field included the Packers Mike McCarthy Coached Offense being Shut Out TWICE!

2016 Rank 4th

2015 Rank 15th

2014 Rank 1st

2013 Rank 8th

2012 Rank 5th

2011 Rank 1st

2010 Rank 10th

[Pugger]

The decline was significant because of the play of the QB. NO offense is gonna be any good if your trigger man stinks. What good would it have done if McCarthy threw his young QB under the bus to the media? When Rodgers went down there weren't a lot of options. Until Brett actually started in a regular season game did we learn he didn't have it. Preseason and practice doesn't really tell ya much. I suppose you can blame Ted for not investing in a veteran backup QB but until AR was lost nobody complained when we spent our cap on other positions. Hindsight is always convenient.

Losing Rodgers for basically the season might turn out to be a blessing in disguise and has forced folks at 1265 to make the changes that were needed. I for one am very excited for 2018.

[ThunderDan]

It only took 53 posts and 4 days to go from:


This Graph indicates a Green Bay Packers MM/Aaron Rodgers Led Offense, now in a CLEAR Free Fall.

:pack:
To:

I'll stick with what the Author (s) of that Graph claimed as the main argument and a Packers declining Offense.since it's Hey Days back in the 2011 Season. Take Aaron Rodgers away from the Mike McCarthy HC Offense and it's significant what Aaron Rodgers NOT Mike McCarthy means to the success of the Green Bay Packers.:

Two very different statements. I agree that the Packer O without ARod was horrible. The MM/AR O is not "in a CLEAR Free Fall."

[woodbuck27]

It only took 53 posts and 4 days to go from:


To:


Two very different statements. I agree that the Packer O without ARod was horrible. The MM/AR O is not "in a CLEAR Free Fall."

http://flash.lakeheadu.ca/~engl4904/leather.jpg

Want a whip !

[George Cumby]

http://flash.lakeheadu.ca/~engl4904/leather.jpg

Want a whip !

That's Woodys selfie from last night, btw.

[woodbuck27]

That's Woodys selfie from last night, btw.

Shhssh, !'m keeping that Secret from Mae.

She thinks it's just my next Halloween Costume.

[woodbuck27]

It only took 53 posts and 4 days to go from:


To:


Two very different statements. I agree that the Packer O without ARod was horrible. The MM/AR O is not "in a CLEAR Free Fall."

Wrestle with this one:

https://coachch.weebly.com/uploads/5/7/9/6/57963593/17capture_1_orig.jpg

The above Graph was produced by the Packer Fans at: *** ... https://coachch.weebly.com/blog/category/all

" ... The aggregate of Murphy/Thompson/McCarthy/Capers have had 4 of their 9 teams realistically in the hunt, and three of those four were ’09 – ’11. In the last four years only one team, the “Seattle-meltdown-team-of-2014”, was statistically a Super Bowl Team. ..." *** <<< Quoted from Source.

[George Cumby]

Shhssh, !'m keeping that Secret from Mae.

She thinks it's just my next Halloween Costume.

Lol. Why keep it a secret?

[Smidgeon]

The decline was significant because of the play of the QB. NO offense is gonna be any good if your trigger man stinks. What good would it have done if McCarthy threw his young QB under the bus to the media? When Rodgers went down there weren't a lot of options. Until Brett actually started in a regular season game did we learn he didn't have it. Preseason and practice doesn't really tell ya much. I suppose you can blame Ted for not investing in a veteran backup QB but until AR was lost nobody complained when we spent our cap on other positions. Hindsight is always convenient.

Losing Rodgers for basically the season might turn out to be a blessing in disguise and has forced folks at 1265 to make the changes that were needed. I for one am very excited for 2018.

But that's what he did last time Rodgers went down. They tried Tolzein (who had come from another team), then Seneca Wallace, and had even dipped their toes in the Vince Young experiment in the offseason. Then Matt Bloody Flynn comes in and wins a couple of games (finally). All of fandom was screaming for a talented college QB to be groomed instead of a late round flyer. So TT drafted a guy pundits were expecting in rounds 2-3.

So which is it? A veteran QB? A mid round QB? Or a high draft pick that won't help the team immediately?

Honestly, I could see taking a 2nd round flyer on a guy. But definitely not the first. Unless Gute establishes he's a guru at drafting 2nd round WRs or 4th round lineman, we wouldn't be giving up the next Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, or Davante Adams.

As an aside, I would keep TT on board just for his ability to pull the trigger on the right WR in round 2. That's an impressive list considering.

[woodbuck27]

But that's what he did last time Rodgers went down. They tried Tolzein (who had come from another team), then Seneca Wallace, and had even dipped their toes in the Vince Young experiment in the offseason. Then Matt Bloody Flynn comes in and wins a couple of games (finally). All of fandom was screaming for a talented college QB to be groomed instead of a late round flyer. So TT drafted a guy pundits were expecting in rounds 2-3.

So which is it? A veteran QB? A mid round QB? Or a high draft pick that won't help the team immediately?

Honestly, I could see taking a 2nd round flyer on a guy. But definitely not the first. Unless Gute establishes he's a guru at drafting 2nd round WRs or 4th round lineman, we wouldn't be giving up the next Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, or Davante Adams.

As an aside, I would keep TT on board just for his ability to pull the trigger on the right WR in round 2. That's an impressive list considering.

A solid suggestion and a key focus for TT because the Packers have a certain need at WR.

[The Shadow]

But that's what he did last time Rodgers went down. They tried Tolzein (who had come from another team), then Seneca Wallace, and had even dipped their toes in the Vince Young experiment in the offseason. Then Matt Bloody Flynn comes in and wins a couple of games (finally). All of fandom was screaming for a talented college QB to be groomed instead of a late round flyer. So TT drafted a guy pundits were expecting in rounds 2-3.

So which is it? A veteran QB? A mid round QB? Or a high draft pick that won't help the team immediately?

Honestly, I could see taking a 2nd round flyer on a guy. But definitely not the first. Unless Gute establishes he's a guru at drafting 2nd round WRs or 4th round lineman, we wouldn't be giving up the next Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, or Davante Adams.

As an aside, I would keep TT on board just for his ability to pull the trigger on the right WR in round 2. That's an impressive list considering.

You get an experienced vet to back up Rodgers. When he gets closer to the end of the road, you go after a top college QB to groom. This "Let's draft a mid round guy & develop him into somebody we can trade later for a high round pick" approach should stop.

[mraynrand]

Two very different statements. I agree that the Packer O without ARod was horrible. The MM/AR O is not "in a CLEAR Free Fall."

IT depends on the QB and the circumstances. Flynn had several productive games in relief in 2013, notably the second half against Dallas and I think the Pittsburgh game IIRC. He also had a monster game against Detroit in 2011 which got him starting money from a genius GM somewhere else.

You have to be a simpleton to put everything on Stubby. Like most very successful coaches he has many strengths, but also some limitations, and he is also limited by the personnel he gets, which is affected by the teams' success. The comprehensive big picture matters.

[Zool]

If Hundley plays at a Flynn level, TT and MM are geniuses and a Hundley should be traded for a 2nd and a 3rd before the draft. Unfortunately, when the lights came on, college Hundley showed back up and now TT and MM are morons.

Is it possible that it’s somewhere in the middle? That maybe they’ve both been employed In the NFL for a couple decades because they are actually pretty good at their jobs? Maybe, just maybe, they overestimated Hundley. Then again, so did most in here. Not by watching practice every day. Or pouring over tape. Or coaching the kid. Nope we read press releases and thought they should have traded him on draft night for a couple picks because he’s going to be good.

If you think you know more than guys who have been in the NFL for a couple decades, should you not also be employed by the NFL? Is it the money that’s holding you back? Are you taking time away from the field to spend it with your family? Maybe you’re just too smart for these bozos?

[Pugger]

If Hundley plays at a Flynn level, TT and MM are geniuses and a Hundley should be traded for a 2nd and a 3rd before the draft. Unfortunately, when the lights came on, college Hundley showed back up and now TT and MM are morons.

Is it possible that it’s somewhere in the middle? That maybe they’ve both been employed In the NFL for a couple decades because they are actually pretty good at their jobs? Maybe, just maybe, they overestimated Hundley. Then again, so did most in here. Not by watching practice every day. Or pouring over tape. Or coaching the kid. Nope we read press releases and thought they should have traded him on draft night for a couple picks because he’s going to be good.

If you think you know more than guys who have been in the NFL for a couple decades, should you not also be employed by the NFL? Is it the money that’s holding you back? Are you taking time away from the field to spend it with your family? Maybe you’re just too smart for these bozos?

:bclap:

NOBODY was bitching about our offense until AR went down and because Hundley was worse than anyone could foresee McCarthy is now a moron. :lol: Did anyone complain that Ted didn't sign a veteran FA QB and instead signed a TE, RG, OLB, DT and CB?

[beveaux1]

:bclap:

NOBODY was bitching about our offense until AR went down and because Hundley was worse than anyone could foresee McCarthy is now a moron. :lol: Did anyone complain that Ted didn't sign a veteran FA QB and instead signed a TE, RG, OLB, DT and CB?

No, but we're much better at hindsight than foresight. :-)

[texaspackerbacker]

:bclap:

NOBODY was bitching about our offense until AR went down and because Hundley was worse than anyone could foresee McCarthy is now a moron. :lol: Did anyone complain that Ted didn't sign a veteran FA QB and instead signed a TE, RG, OLB, DT and CB?

Uh, some of us were. I, for one, have repeatedly complained about how our O Line always made it necessary for Rodgers to scramble and throw on the run. I also mentioned a few times that our WRs were basically overrated because they had the best QB in the history of the world throwing to them.

And about the FAs Ted went out and got, yeah, quantity-wise, he picked up a few more than usual, but literally all of those were rejects that virtually nobody else wanted including the teams they came from - same ol' same ol'.

[Fritz]

If Hundley plays at a Flynn level, TT and MM are geniuses and a Hundley should be traded for a 2nd and a 3rd before the draft. Unfortunately, when the lights came on, college Hundley showed back up and now TT and MM are morons.

Is it possible that it’s somewhere in the middle? That maybe they’ve both been employed In the NFL for a couple decades because they are actually pretty good at their jobs? Maybe, just maybe, they overestimated Hundley. Then again, so did most in here. Not by watching practice every day. Or pouring over tape. Or coaching the kid. Nope we read press releases and thought they should have traded him on draft night for a couple picks because he’s going to be good.

If you think you know more than guys who have been in the NFL for a couple decades, should you not also be employed by the NFL? Is it the money that’s holding you back? Are you taking time away from the field to spend it with your family? Maybe you’re just too smart for these bozos?

No. They are morons. Winning = genius. Losing = morons. Why mess that up with nuance and subtlety?

[pbmax]

Uh, some of us were. I, for one, have repeatedly complained about how our O Line always made it necessary for Rodgers to scramble and throw on the run. I also mentioned a few times that our WRs were basically overrated because they had the best QB in the history of the world throwing to them.

And about the FAs Ted went out and got, yeah, quantity-wise, he picked up a few more than usual, but literally all of those were rejects that virtually nobody else wanted including the teams they came from - same ol' same ol'.

Doesn't Rodgers need to scramble and throw on the run because he is waiting for the secondary offense to get someone open?

He has to be near the top of holding onto the ball.

[mraynrand]

No. They are morons. Winning = genius. Losing = morons. Why mess that up with nuance and subtlety?

Preach it

[texaspackerbacker]

Doesn't Rodgers need to scramble and throw on the run because he is waiting for the secondary offense to get someone open?

He has to be near the top of holding onto the ball.

That's the story some like to pass off as a defense of the O Line hahahahaha. Maybe he has to wait for the "secondary offense" to get open because receivers don't do a very good job of getting open as the play is called - which I guess would be the "primary offense".

Any way you look at it, supporting personnel has gotten more and more mediocre doing things Ted's way. Hopefully that will get turned around on both O and D with Gutekunst.

[pbmax]

That's the story some like to pass off as a defense of the O Line hahahahaha. Maybe he has to wait for the "secondary offense" to get open because receivers don't do a very good job of getting open as the play is called - which I guess would be the "primary offense".

Any way you look at it, supporting personnel has gotten more and more mediocre doing things Ted's way. Hopefully that will get turned around on both O and D with Gutekunst.

I can see how you get to that explanation, but it doesn't explain McCarthy endorsing and teaching that offense. If he agrees the O line is performing badly in pass pro, he doesn't want the QB holding on to the ball.

[mraynrand]

I can see how you get to that explanation, but it doesn't explain McCarthy endorsing and teaching that offense. If he agrees the O line is performing badly in pass pro, he doesn't want the QB holding on to the ball.

When they were performing badly, with multiple injuries across the line, he was running a lot of short passes, flat routes and WR screens. The one thing unfair to Hundley perhaps is how beat up the O-line was for a stretch while he was starting out.

[pbmax]

When they were performing badly, with multiple injuries across the line, he was running a lot of short passes, flat routes and WR screens. The one thing unfair to Hundley perhaps is how beat up the O-line was for a stretch while he was starting out.

True. This year was pretty anomalous for passing and protection plus Hundley's starts. And I am actually not all that excited about all the short and shorter stuff that even ARod was calling.

[Zool]

The one thing unfair to Hundley perhaps is how beat up the O-line was for a stretch while he was starting out.

That and his inability to throw an accurate ball more than 10 yards.

[texaspackerbacker]

That and his inability to throw an accurate ball more than 10 yards.

hahahaha a string of rational posts, then back to this.

[Zool]

hahahaha a string of rational posts, then back to this.

Maybe you don’t watch the games then? He’s horrible at anything over 20 yards. If PB can find some stats, he’ll post them. If I’m wrong so be it, but Rex Hundler is pretty damned inaccurate from my eye.

[texaspackerbacker]

I can see how you get to that explanation, but it doesn't explain McCarthy endorsing and teaching that offense. If he agrees the O line is performing badly in pass pro, he doesn't want the QB holding on to the ball.

That's a valid point. All I can say is, you have to throw the ball down the field at least part of the time. It all come back to the fact that Aaron Rodgers is just so damn good that he can succeed most of the time even with poor O Line blocking and not much separation from his receivers - when he has to scramble and throw on the run. There wasn't much McCarthy could do in the short term to improve the O Line.

When Hundley got thrown in there, he obviously couldn't do what Aaron Rodgers could do, but what I'm saying is that virtually nobody could. I'm also saying, an immobile QB, whether veteran or young, would have floundered a lot worse with our O Line and our receivers.

[Zool]

Career low YPC for Cobb and Nelson this season. Adams dropped a yard and a half per catch. Everything was a bubble screen, or a 5 yard out. It was low level college O. He was a bad QB this year no matter the metric you pick. Maybe he’ll get better, maybe he won’t. All I know is what I saw on the field.

[BZnDallas]

I was disappointed by Hundley this year. Is that an understatement? I had higher hopes and higher wants as trade value. However I still believe Cobb and Nelson can be useful with Aaron on the field. That doesn't mean I wouldn't draft more WR talent if available.

[Pugger]

But that's what he did last time Rodgers went down. They tried Tolzein (who had come from another team), then Seneca Wallace, and had even dipped their toes in the Vince Young experiment in the offseason. Then Matt Bloody Flynn comes in and wins a couple of games (finally). All of fandom was screaming for a talented college QB to be groomed instead of a late round flyer. So TT drafted a guy pundits were expecting in rounds 2-3.

So which is it? A veteran QB? A mid round QB? Or a high draft pick that won't help the team immediately?

Honestly, I could see taking a 2nd round flyer on a guy. But definitely not the first. Unless Gute establishes he's a guru at drafting 2nd round WRs or 4th round lineman, we wouldn't be giving up the next Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, or Davante Adams.

As an aside, I would keep TT on board just for his ability to pull the trigger on the right WR in round 2. That's an impressive list considering.

We'll never know if Seneca Wallace could have won a couple of games for us or not in 2013 because he got hurt during his second drive of his first game. Tolzien didn't have a clue what he was doing mainly cuz he was only in town a few days. Was Flynn available at the end of TC that year?

I'd prefer Gutey would draft a mid round QB and spend most of his draft and FA capital on defense and a TE with speed.

[Pugger]

Doesn't Rodgers need to scramble and throw on the run because he is waiting for the secondary offense to get someone open?

He has to be near the top of holding onto the ball.

I'm hoping our new WR coach will actually teach our WRs other than Adams how to get open quicker so Aaron doesn't have to hold onto the ball forever.

[Pugger]

I was disappointed by Hundley this year. Is that an understatement? I had higher hopes and higher wants as trade value. However I still believe Cobb and Nelson can be useful with Aaron on the field. That doesn't mean I wouldn't draft more WR talent if available.

We do need more speed at this position and you can find that in later rounds.

[Zool]

You’ll be hard pressed to find guys faster than Davis and Janis. Just need one (or 3) of them to actually be a WR and not just a ST player.

[texaspackerbacker]

You’ll be hard pressed to find guys faster than Davis and Janis. Just need one (or 3) of them to actually be a WR and not just a ST player.

Excellent Point! We will have a new WR coach now; Hopefully somebody can persuade McCarthy to actually play those two plus Clark and Yancy. If it's really true that those young guys weren't ready to get on the field - something I very much doubt, then it means negligent coaching them up, not stupidity on the part of the players.

I've been pushing for Janis for a LONG time. He's done damn good almost every chance he has been given - GIVE HIM MORE CHANCES!

[pbmax]

Excellent Point! We will have a new WR coach now; Hopefully somebody can persuade McCarthy to actually play those two plus Clark and Yancy. If it's really true that those young guys weren't ready to get on the field - something I very much doubt, then it means negligent coaching them up, not stupidity on the part of the players.

I've been pushing for Janis for a LONG time. He's done damn good almost every chance he has been given - GIVE HIM MORE CHANCES!

Did you see him run the wrong route versus Minnesota and nearly collide with the WR screen that was supposed to be run?

[Smidgeon]

Did you see him run the wrong route versus Minnesota and nearly collide with the WR screen that was supposed to be run?

I read Janis ran that one correctly and it was the guy who ran into him who messed up.

[pbmax]

I read Janis ran that one correctly and it was the guy who ran into him who messed up.

I read the reverse, but I might have read it here.

Do you remember where?

[Smidgeon]

I read the reverse, but I might have read it here.

Do you remember where?

I think it was the film review on cheesehead.tv

[Sparkey]

We do need more speed at this position and you can find that in later rounds.

Sportradar rates Packers receivers as NFL's slowest

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/05/sportradar-rates-packers-receivers-nfls-slowest/1007206001/

No QB can throw a tortoise open......

[mraynrand]

I feel the need for speed

[ThunderDan]

Sportradar rates Packers receivers as NFL's slowest

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/05/sportradar-rates-packers-receivers-nfls-slowest/1007206001/

No QB can throw a tortoise open......

I saw James Jones do it over and over again just a few years ago.

[Zool]

Sportradar rates Packers receivers as NFL's slowest

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/05/sportradar-rates-packers-receivers-nfls-slowest/1007206001/

No QB can throw a tortoise open......

If we look at every pass play in the N.F.L. this season through Week 16, and then average the top speed of each receiver across all of those plays, the Rams have the fastest group with an average of 13.32 m.p.h. The Raiders, at 11.96, are slower than every other team except for the Packers, who are more than a mile and a half per hour slower than the Rams at 11.74 m.p.h.

[Smidgeon]

If we look at every pass play in the N.F.L. this season through Week 16, and then average the top speed of each receiver across all of those plays, the Rams have the fastest group with an average of 13.32 m.p.h. The Raiders, at 11.96, are slower than every other team except for the Packers, who are more than a mile and a half per hour slower than the Rams at 11.74 m.p.h.

How much of that is scramble drill? It takes more time to run a stop and start or sit in a zone than it does to cover the same distance in a straight line.

[mraynrand]

How much of that is scramble drill? It takes more time to run a stop and start or sit in a zone than it does to cover the same distance in a straight line.

It seems like more a reflection of the speed of the offense. Might be due to a lot of short routes and WR screens due to the utter incompetency of downfield throwing by a certain QB who is worth a #2 and #4 draft pick, according to a certain poster from Texas.

[Zool]

Its an aggregate of each player's single top recorded speed in a game this year by team, averaged. It says nothing about average speed. There doesn't appear to be a minimum amount of plays for the player to be counted. It's not great data, but it could be a bit telling I suppose.

I've often said Packer WRs can't get open. Top end speed doesn't help much with that though.

[3irty1]

Sportradar rates Packers receivers as NFL's slowest

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/05/sportradar-rates-packers-receivers-nfls-slowest/1007206001/

No QB can throw a tortoise open......

Its hard to ignore the speed demons at WR that teams brought to the playoffs this year. Pittsburgh and New Orleans are especially loaded.

[call_me_ishmael]

I would have zero problem totally rebooting the WR and pass rushing groups this off-season. The Packers haven't been able to get open or get deep since early 2015. Remember 2011 where we seemingly hit a 50 yard bomb weekly. I miss that.

[mraynrand]

I would have zero problem totally rebooting the WR and pass rushing groups this off-season. The Packers haven't been able to get open or get deep since early 2015. Remember 2011 where we seemingly hit a 50 yard bomb weekly. I miss that.

Yep. Difference makers on offense aged out and/or replaced by 'meh' as well. Who is left? Rodgers and Bacteria. Maybe a running back.

[Joemailman]

We do need more speed at this position and you can find that in later rounds.

Maybe things will be different with Gute, but TT had no real success drafting WR's after the 3rd round.

[Zool]

Maybe things will be different with Gute, but TT had no real success drafting WR's after the 3rd round.

Boy ain't that the truth. He made some hay in round 2 though.

[pbmax]

Its hard to ignore the speed demons at WR that teams brought to the playoffs this year. Pittsburgh and New Orleans are especially loaded.

That equation has hit a hard limit though.

[ThunderDan]

Well, it is one thing to be fast. It is completely different to be fast, catch the ball and actually run the play that was called.

[Pugger]

I saw James Jones do it over and over again just a few years ago.

Exactly. We don't need speed demons. We have one already in Janis who is now stuck on ST.

[Joemailman]

Exactly. We don't need speed demons. We have one already in Janis who is now stuck on ST.

It does help to have a deep threat though. During much of James Jones' career, he was halped by the fact that the Packers had Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson, guys who had deep speed that defenses had to respect. The Packers need to get back to drafting one of those types of guys. It would Adams even better.

[pbmax]

It does help to have a deep threat though. During much of James Jones' career, he was halped by the fact that the Packers had Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson, guys who had deep speed that defenses had to respect. The Packers need to get back to drafting one of those types of guys. It would Adams even better.

It also helped to have James Jones, who despite pedestrian speed somehow got an angle on DBs. Once he learned to catch over the shoulder he was a nightmare to cover deep.

Mostly I think his advantage was size and the willingness to run some inside routes. DBs had to honor his feints inside.

[texaspackerbacker]

We do need "speed demons" - more accurately, we need to make more use of the ones we already have, Janis at the top of the list, but Davis and Yancy also. The lack of speed at WR allows defenses to pack it in and make it a lot more difficult even for shorter throws.

[3irty1]

It also helped to have James Jones, who despite pedestrian speed somehow got an angle on DBs. Once he learned to catch over the shoulder he was a nightmare to cover deep.

Mostly I think his advantage was size and the willingness to run some inside routes. DBs had to honor his feints inside.

James Jones was a press coverage escape artist.

[pbmax]

James Jones was a press coverage escape artist.

Its the paradox of no speed. If a tiny DB bumps you and you are already slow, does it actually have a measurable effect?

[hoosier]

Its the paradox of no speed. If a tiny DB bumps you and you are already slow, does it actually have a measurable effect?

Most definitely: the tiny DB goes backwards. As you alluded to in your earlier comment, a good deep threat doesn't necessarily need blazing speed. Knowing how to use positioning and hands, and being able to do something after catching the ball, are just as important. What made Jones especially tough is that he was hard to bring down and had some quickness, so those 30 yard back shoulder throws had a way of turning into 65-yd TDs.

[The Shadow]

How is the secondary communication any better with (Half) Whitt in charge?

[mraynrand]

How is the secondary communication any better with (Half) Whitt in charge?

You seem to think he's pretty stupid. Is there reporting that suggests he was the problem with the communications issues? Or that he's stupid?

I like that Simmons guy getting promoted. He's pretty bright.

[Joemailman]

I like the promotion of Whitt to defensive passing game coordinator. They need someone to oversee the whole operation and determine where the breakdowns are. Whitt is kind of a no-nonsense guy who won't be afraid to bruise some egos if necessary. I doubt Perry will want to work under him.