Spinning, Spinning, Spinning: Ted's the Scapegoat, Mike's the Tough Guy in Charge

[Fritz]

I am probably not starting anything new, but I have noticed we're all so focused on who the next GM will be that we don't seem to have a thread that looks at the meta-story in all this. Partly because TT's so quiet (nobody's heard a word from the guy, I don't think), it's been easy for the JSO schlock jocks to fall back into their simplistic analysis.

Not only have we gone back to the "Ted never signed free agents" motif (this cropped up in a recent Silverstein or Daugherty article), now Ted is being painted as, minimally, aged by the job, and by those more enthusiastic posters, as a doddering, demented, blank-eyed shell.

Certainly this 7 - 9 season has revealed major flaws in the team and perhaps the organization. It does seem that the Vikes have done a better job drafting defensive talent than TT has the last few years. Without Rodgers, this team sure looked and played like a 3 - 8 unit. It was apparent there was no effective pass rush, and that the team lacked depth at the corner position. The receiver group lacks speed. (Though most fans liked the running backs TT drafted last year.)

However, coaching may also have played a role; thus Capers's demise. When players like Josh Jones and Montravius Adams are raved about for their natural ability in training camp, and then neither one seems to make any progress on the field, they're either way immature or not well-coached. Why Clinton-Dix seemed to lose his head in his ass is a complete mystery; none the writers seem to have investigated the reasons for this at all. How does a young player nearing a contract year go from All-Pro or near All-Pro to uninterested schlump? Then there's the infamous "communication issues" that have plagued this defense for years, particularly on the back end (that's why so many of us are nervous that Whitt or Perry might be hired as DC).

On the offensive side, heads, too, have rolled. Bennett, Van Pelt, Getsy leaving for another job, and probably I'm forgetting a couple.

And here I'll channel Woody: What about 'the head coach'?? Mike McCarthy is being painted as demanding, wanting more out of the next GM, sitting in on interviews, firing coaches, telling Damarious Randall to 'shut it,' and on and on.

But isn't this guy supposed to be the quarterback whisperer? Sure, he can claim credit for developing Aaron Rodgers, but hasn't he failed miserably with Hundley? That guy had the opportunity to watch and learn and practice and grow for two years - two years, a lifetime in the NFL! - and he wasn't simply "meh" or mediocre, he was lousy. Lousy. After being developed for two years by the head coach, the QB guru.

It was sad to see how much this team appears to have been a one-man show for some time now. Since McGinn's not-prophetic article a few years ago about how the Packers were built to survive a Rodgers injury (those of you with short memories can predict what happened anyway: Rodges proceeded to get hurt, and the Packers proceeded to suck), it's becoming worse and worse. This team was flat-out awful.

So even though I've been an ardent TT supporter, I agree it's time for a change there. But this scapegoating of him seems ridiculous. The writer of the aforementioned TT piece mentioned Taysom Hill as an example of Ted's failure. Seriously? The one article I read about the guy is that he was playing special teams for the Saints. If you have a future as an NFL QB, you're not playing special teams. What an idiotic example. all in all, Thompson was a very good GM. It's not easy to keep success going. Yes, he seemed to have faltered the last few years, but he wasn't some Cleveland Browns numbnut or Matt Millen clone.

I also think MM is getting out of all this too easy. He wants more from a GM, and he fires a bunch of assistant coaches, but where's his accountability? He trained Hundley for over two years, insisted Hundley was the guy, and came out with wildly inconsistent game plans for a quarterback he's supposed to know by now. First he's going to just run and run and run, then suddenly in one game he wants Hundley to come out throwing. And then after the season Hundley says he should have been better prepared??? Hmmm. Who's in charge of that, I wonder?

If you are a member of the Green Bay Packers organization, and you're anywhere near Mike McCarthy and you see a bus coming down the street, you'd better run the hell away from Mike.

[pbmax]

Go Fritz Go. Repped.

[red]

great rant fritz

i think i pretty much agree, i'm having trouble focusing right now, but it seemed spot on IMO

[Fritz]

I also don't quite understand why Murphy cannot see the similarities to other situations in which someone like, say, Martha Ford, really likes a coach, like, say, Jim Caldwell, so when she hires a new GM, one of the conditions is that she'd, you know, rather not see Caldwell fired. So the GM's hands are tied, especially when the guy goes 9 - 7 in Detroit (that's like 11 - 5 in Green Bay). Then he has to give the guy an extension, only to see the Leos limp to an 8 - 8 record despite Stafford being healthy for all sixteen games, and then he has to can Caldwell and start again.

If you're going to start over, then start over. The only way I can understand how Murphy is doing things in such a half-assed way is if he talked to Aaron Rodgers and heard from him that McCarthy really, really ought to stay - that Aaron didn't want to start over with a new coach.

Even then, it's a bit hard to understand. If Rodgers really does intend to play for another five or six years, he ought to know MM won't be around that long, and that now's the time for a new start.

[gbgary]

ok...of all the people responsible for the mess we saw on the field this year TT was the most responsible. there's no way that can be argued. scapegoat implies someone who was blameless gets all the blame. that just isn't the case here. MM reminded everyone in his presser that the standard in Green Bay is winning championships. he asked if everything possible was being done to do that. he implied the answer is no. he wasn't given the roster he needed to do it. that's ALL on TT.

[Smidgeon]

I also think you're looking at this the right way. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

However, the only plausible scenario that might run counter to this is that M3 trusted the development of Hundley and preparing the offensive game plan to his QB coach and offensive coordinator. Both of them are gone. Perhaps his "He's our guy" rant at the podium is because he's long been known to not throw people under the bus unless he feels it's the best way to teach a guy (and he uses it very sparingly and seemingly never for coaches).

There's so much going on here that we don't know and will never know. We can only speculate based on opinions of people close to the team while ignoring whatever random drivel Woody comes up with.

[Tony Oday]

Dom Capers was the reason the d is bad. There is talent on the D. You watch next year we are top 10 in defense and Super Bowl winners.

[Joemailman]

If you're going to start over, then start over. The only way I can understand how Murphy is doing things in such a half-assed way is if he talked to Aaron Rodgers and heard from him that McCarthy really, really ought to stay - that Aaron didn't want to start over with a new coach.

Murphy's not looking to start over. He has the best player in the NFL. You don't start over when you have that. You try to build around him.


Even then, it's a bit hard to understand. If Rodgers really does intend to play for another five or six years, he ought to know MM won't be around that long, and that now's the time for a new start.

Why would Rodgers know McCarthy won't be around for another 6 years? McCarthy is still only 54 years old. He could coach until he's 60.

[red]

Dom Capers was the reason the d is bad. There is talent on the D. You watch next year we are top 10 in defense and Super Bowl winners.

10 draft picks in the top 2 rounds over the last 6 years i believe

there should be plenty of talent there

but just in case, the new guy should add a few more free agents

[red]

Murphy's not looking to start over. He has the best player in the NFL. You don't start over when you have that. You try to build around him.



Why would Rodgers know McCarthy won't be around for another 6 years? McCarthy is still only 54 years old. He could coach until he's 60.

if fat mike is around for another 6 years then a-rod will retire having only won 1 super bowl, and we will have almost completely wasted not 1 but 2 of the greatest QB's in nfl history

[Pugger]

I still think Mike can coach QBs. Only he could get Matt freaking Flynn to look competent. Poor Hundley was probably one of those guys who looks good at practice but when things get crazy in games he panics. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. IMO the only thing that has held us back is the defense and injuries. If the D is fixed and Rodgers returns to form there is no reason to believe we won't go deep in the playoffs in 2018.

[red]

I still think Mike can coach QBs. Only he could get Matt freaking Flynn to look competent. Poor Hundley was probably one of those guys who looks good at practice but when things get crazy in games he panics. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. IMO the only thing that has held us back is the defense and injuries. If the D is fixed and Rodgers returns to form there is no reason to believe we won't go deep in the playoffs in 2018.

besides a-rod, flynn would be fat mikes greatest accomplishment

8 seasons in the nfl, 7 starts

he has been out of the nfl for 2 years and he is only 32

i believe for his career, mike has groomed one decent nfl QB besides a-rod (aaron brooks)

[pbmax]

besides a-rod, flynn would be fat mikes greatest accomplishment

8 seasons in the nfl, 7 starts

he has been out of the nfl for 2 years and he is only 32

i believe for his career, mike has groomed one decent nfl QB besides a-rod (aaron brooks)

Aaron Brooks being functional is a pretty remarkable achievement.

[Rutnstrut]

I've said stubby is over rated for awhile now. So I won't go into it. I did hear that GB is having trouble getting outside people to come in and even interview for the GM job. Perhaps that is because no one wants to be handcuffed with stubby.

[Joemailman]

I still think Mike can coach QBs. Only he could get Matt freaking Flynn to look competent. Poor Hundley was probably one of those guys who looks good at practice but when things get crazy in games he panics. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. IMO the only thing that has held us back is the defense and injuries. If the D is fixed and Rodgers returns to form there is no reason to believe we won't go deep in the playoffs in 2018.

I think the CBA has made it more difficult to do what MM used to do. MM's "quarterback school" is no more because of limits on when offseason work can start.

[pbmax]

I've said stubby is over rated for awhile now. So I won't go into it. I did hear that GB is having trouble getting outside people to come in and even interview for the GM job. Perhaps that is because no one wants to be handcuffed with stubby.

3 requests were turned down by team; Lions and Austin (under contract), Vikes and Paton (playoffs under way), and Schneider in Seattle (under contract). Only disappointing one was Reggie Mckenzie turning down chance to interview because he apparently will still get to be GM, though I don't expect that to last long unless Reggie is prepared to hand over reigns to Gruden.

Fangio is a FA next Tuesday.

[woodbuck27]

Fritz:

That Opening Post is the kind I like with so many 'blind as bats' Packerrats, not ever seeing the Forest for the Trees.

This Opening Thread Post covers the MESS that's become the Green Bay Packers. Written in what I'll deem a pseudo 'Tankish Style'. Good Stuff Fritz.

Woody :glug:



Repped.

[denverYooper]

I disagree that bats are bland. They are a vibrant and fascinating mammal.

[pbmax]

My radar tastes just fine thank you!

[woodbuck27]

I also don't quite understand why Murphy cannot see the similarities to other situations in which someone like, say, Martha Ford, really likes a coach, like, say, Jim Caldwell, so when she hires a new GM, one of the conditions is that she'd, you know, rather not see Caldwell fired. So the GM's hands are tied, especially when the guy goes 9 - 7 in Detroit (that's like 11 - 5 in Green Bay). Then he has to give the guy an extension, only to see the Leos limp to an 8 - 8 record despite Stafford being healthy for all sixteen games, and then he has to can Caldwell and start again.

If you're going to start over, then start over. The only way I can understand how Murphy is doing things in such a half-assed way is if he talked to Aaron Rodgers and heard from him that McCarthy really, really ought to stay - that Aaron didn't want to start over with a new coach.

Even then, it's a bit hard to understand. If Rodgers really does intend to play for another five or six years, he ought to know MM won't be around that long, and that now's the time for a new start.

Comments woodbuck27:

On A) Mike MCCarthy and B) Aaron Rodgers and any influence by one of them or both on Mark Murphy and his choice for the new Packer GM:

A) * With the absolute all over the Map paranoia *, that Packer ' still HC ' Mike McCarthy has demonstrated.

With every head scratching move MM makes, and the ** dismissing ** of members of his Coaching staff. The obvious backstabbing 'my skin is first', always comes first, bad rep handle Mike McCarthy deserves, and will in all likelihood forever now, have to live with as that spreads around the NFL.

* MM isn't in the play and having much influence on Packer President and CEO Mark Murphy's hunt and difficult selection of the new Packer GM. I mean really, what Man in his right mind would seriously ask MM for advice and not risk his spittal all over your face.

** the polite choice of words... and for clear honesty, substitute absolute TRUTH and the words " throwing under the bus " .

Is Aaron Rodgers in the play and Mark Murphy's decision?

Should he or Mike McCarthy be meddling in this very important decision? If I was Mark Murphy I'd listen to them without much comment and at the same time feel sorry for his or their desperation. Trying to exert influence is clearly meddling in an area that neither is qualified to meddle in.

Is anyone so far learning that Mark Murphy is actually in a PANIC state and his hunt for the next Packer GM? I'm not reading anything like that. I'm reading a whole lot of stuff.

So far the only error has been NOT Firing Mike McCarthy and especially so as he continues to embarrass himself and the good reputation of the Green Bay Packers Organization.

Errors:

The first order of business had to be to ASAP to get the very best MAN installed as the new Packer GM. Mark Murphy needed to place everything else on a temporary R.E.L.A.X. mode.

MM had to be handcuffed and making any decision to restore his own egocentric comfort zone. Get that 'Fit...Fit...Fit...unfit overweight and stressed out lump of a man and his wife (NO..she likely needs a break all by herself), on a plane to some Health Resort in Arizona.

As a minimum precaution and Mike McCarthy.... Don't the Packer Medical People have 'a PILL they can give him to calm him the 'H' down? That poor fella is going to explode !

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8SuIGEz1svYe6fJNRj4e1Drby2DNJ0 OoktiBcpq8Bov5sajqatw

Isn't Aaron Rodgers (as rumoured) too busy dating Danica Patrick and having a good time; to get involved in this total Packer Canadian Satire Comedy Material Sideshow Mess. Right now, I'm imagining the good and hopeful comedy people from 'Saturday Night LIVE; dreaming that they could work up a skit and what's going on and the future...' THE FUTURE TODAY !! May GOD Help Us All ', of the Green Bay Packers.

https://nypost.com/2018/01/05/danica-patrick-can-only-smile-about-aaron-rodgers-romance-rumors/

https://i0.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/quarterback-aaron-rodgers-olivia-munn-racer-danica-patrick-pp.jpg?ssl=1&resize=640%2C400


:pack:GO PACK GO !:pack:

[Zool]

Name another flying mammal. See, bats are awesome. And around here, they eat their weight in mosquitos daily. That alone makes them awesome.


*some facts in this post might be made up

[Rastak]

Name another flying mammal. See, bats are awesome. And around here, they eat their weight in mosquitos daily. That alone makes them awesome.


*some facts in this post might be made up


They always have scarred the shit out of me....flying mice essentially.

[woodbuck27]

I disagree that bats are bland. They are a vibrant and fascinating mammal.

I find it fascinating how so many Packerrats are 'bang on' and seeing typos and being Spelling Nazi's; yet can't (again) see 'the forest for the trees', and all things correct and Packer Nation moving forward.

You know .......... 'the right fit'. :cry:

Right ... bats are hardly 'bland' their unfortunately simply becoming, where I come from, too 'rare'.

[gbgary]

Name another flying mammal.

Rocket J Squirrel...

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1684707183/rocket_j_squirrel_400x400.jpg

[woodbuck27]

Name another flying mammal. See, bats are awesome. And around here, they eat their weight in mosquitos daily. That alone makes them awesome.


*some facts in this post might be made up

" Name another flying mammal." Zool

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Colugo_%28Galeopterus_variegatus%2C_adult_female%2 9%2C_Central_Catchment_Area%2C_Singapore_-_20060618.jpg/330px-Colugo_%28Galeopterus_variegatus%2C_adult_female%2 9%2C_Central_Catchment_Area%2C_Singapore_-_20060618.jpg
Sunda flying lemur

[texaspackerbacker]

Dom Capers was the reason the d is bad. There is talent on the D. You watch next year we are top 10 in defense and Super Bowl winners.

Tony, I wouldn't ever call anybody an idiot that I agree with so much in political threads, but you are dead wrong in what you say here.

The reason for shaky defense OF COURSE was piss poor personnel, courtesy of Ted Thompson. Capers mitigated that situation to a great extent with his schemes, trickery, and compensation. Sometimes, the quality of personnel problem was just too much to compensate for, though.

I just hope whoever comes next is of a similar mindset and almost as good a D Corrdinator as Capers.

[woodbuck27]

Tony, I wouldn't ever call anybody an idiot that I agree with so much in political threads, but you are dead wrong in what you say here.

The reason for shaky defense OF COURSE was piss poor personnel, courtesy of Ted Thompson. Capers mitigated that situation to a great extent with his schemes, trickery, and compensation. Sometimes, the quality of personnel problem was just too much to compensate for, though.

I just hope whoever comes next is of a similar mindset and almost as good a D Corrdinator as Capers.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Green+Bay+Packers+v+Detroit+Lions+i_kcItFm00il.jpg

Looking for the perfect 'fit'.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Tony, I wouldn't ever call anybody an idiot that I agree with so much in political threads, but you are dead wrong in what you say here.

The reason for shaky defense OF COURSE was piss poor personnel, courtesy of Ted Thompson. Capers mitigated that situation to a great extent with his schemes, trickery, and compensation. Sometimes, the quality of personnel problem was just too much to compensate for, though.

I just hope whoever comes next is of a similar mindset and almost as good a D Corrdinator as Capers.The problem, of course, is when young and inexperienced players can't or won't execute Capers' "schemes, trickery and compensation" on Sunday afternoon. How about a DC who believes in KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)?

[Tony Oday]

Tony, I wouldn't ever call anybody an idiot that I agree with so much in political threads, but you are dead wrong in what you say here.

The reason for shaky defense OF COURSE was piss poor personnel, courtesy of Ted Thompson. Capers mitigated that situation to a great extent with his schemes, trickery, and compensation. Sometimes, the quality of personnel problem was just too much to compensate for, though.

I just hope whoever comes next is of a similar mindset and almost as good a D Corrdinator as Capers.

Think idiot is strong ;) Guys from our team go somewhere else and excel, did they just get good or did the new coach actually coach them. We have the raw talent on d just magically nobody knows what the hell is going on.

[Pugger]

Think idiot is strong ;) Guys from our team go somewhere else and excel, did they just get good or did the new coach actually coach them. We have the raw talent on d just magically nobody knows what the hell is going on.

Well, hopefully all that will change with a new DC. It can't get much worse...

[Smidgeon]

The problem, of course, is when young and inexperienced players can't or won't execute Capers' "schemes, trickery and compensation" on Sunday afternoon. How about a DC who believes in KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)?

If they can't grasp it, why are they in the NFL? There's more here than simple complexity.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If they can't grasp it, why are they in the NFL? There's more here than simple complexity.I'm listening...

[Joemailman]

I thought this year was the double whammy. Opposing offenses had figured out the Packers defense, but some of the Packers defenders hadn't. You can't go totally simple, or sophisticated NFL offenses will pick it apart.

There has to be a happy medium between
http://clipart-library.com/images/pi7rznL7T.jpg

and

http://czabe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/MAILBAG_chalkboard.jpg

[Pugger]

I thought this year was the double whammy. Opposing offenses had figured out the Packers defense, but some of the Packers defenders hadn't. You can't go totally simple, or sophisticated NFL offenses will pick it apart.

There has to be a happy medium between
http://clipart-library.com/images/pi7rznL7T.jpg

and

http://czabe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/MAILBAG_chalkboard.jpg

:lol:

[mraynrand]

I find it fascinating how so many Packerrats are 'bang on' and seeing typos and being Spelling Nazi's; yet can't (again) see 'the forest for the trees', and all things correct and Packer Nation moving forward.

You know .......... 'the right fit'. :cry:

Right ... bats are hardly 'bland' their unfortunately simply becoming, where I come from, too 'rare'.

your bats

[George Cumby]

I also think you're looking at this the right way. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

However, the only plausible scenario that might run counter to this is that M3 trusted the development of Hundley and preparing the offensive game plan to his QB coach and offensive coordinator. Both of them are gone. Perhaps his "He's our guy" rant at the podium is because he's long been known to not throw people under the bus unless he feels it's the best way to teach a guy (and he uses it very sparingly and seemingly never for coaches).

There's so much going on here that we don't know and will never know. We can only speculate based on opinions of people close to the team while ignoring whatever random drivel Woody comes up with.

QFT

In the absence of information, people will make shit up, see: McGinn and Woody.

We know next to nothing of what really transpired, we know very little about the personalities, the dynamics or the thought processes behind the decisions.

I trust it was the right decision to have Ted step down. I hope keeping M3 was the right decision. I hope that Murphy is competent and will make the right call.

If not, then welcome to the rest of the NFL, it's been a great run.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I thought this year was the double whammy. Opposing offenses had figured out the Packers defense, but some of the Packers defenders hadn't. You can't go totally simple, or sophisticated NFL offenses will pick it apart.

There has to be a happy medium between
http://clipart-library.com/images/pi7rznL7T.jpg

and

http://czabe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/MAILBAG_chalkboard.jpgI'd error on the side of KISS. Same for the offense. When it takes WR's two or three years to learn what MM and ARod expect them to know, you make yourself vulnerable when injuries occur. Or when veterans leave for FAgency and their replacements are greener than grass. Plus, the more complicated the system, the harder it becomes to plug in FA subsitutes mid-season. We don't need a system that favors Wonderlic scores over football instincts, IMO.

[pbmax]

Think idiot is strong ;) Guys from our team go somewhere else and excel, did they just get good or did the new coach actually coach them. We have the raw talent on d just magically nobody knows what the hell is going on.

Beside Hyde and Hayward, who do you mean? Did you see Zombo get run out of a play by Mariota last night?

Hyde and Hayward both played well here. Hyde was a safety and Hayward a corner who could dominate in zone. They weren't terrible when not playing to their strengths either. Hyde took a lot of grief as a slot CB allowing passes across the middle, but trail coverage on a crossing route or TE coverage were problems in this D before he got here. His lack of speed did not help him solve it but he played the position wisely and did make some plays.

Since Hyde was not going to start at safety for Dom and Hayward was not a lock for the #2 CB job, Ted did not pay either like a well compensated starter. There was also the question of both contributing to some terrible defenses. Put on better defense and playing their natural spot, both excelled, though I am still no sold on Hyde as an All Pro, that defense he is on fell down hard in the second half of the season.

So either the DC adjusts the scheme and incorporates the talent or the GM gets new players when they are no longer cheap.

Dom didn't start them and Ted wasn't going to sign FAs just so they fit the open peg in Doms defense. Ergo, trouble.

The problem here is that no one ever squared this circle, and that is the fault of the organization. And McCarthy, who fired Capers only after a year that would make almost any move seem wise, has the same coordination question to answer now with two new guys.

[pbmax]

If they can't grasp it, why are they in the NFL? There's more here than simple complexity.

Its a great question. And the fact that the D line coach and LB coach were let go doesn't answer the question about whether the assistants were part of the problem (especially in the backend). You also need to wonder about coach input about personnel decisions. Should Hyde and Hayward been more prized than they were? Hayward didn't start and Hyde was played out of position.

But there is a complexity with the Capers D that has long been acknowledged. He and Le Beau both preferred to have vets out there. Rather than simplify, they wanted to add rules to existing schemes to deal with new threats from the offense.

And this defense came together in 1992 or so. It was born of concepts that go back to Jim Mora and the old AFC 3-4. Its been modified heavily.

Capers moved to preferring (not sure whether this was him or Ted's talent) man coverage compared to Le Beau's zone.

But there is no question the D was designed to feature a full complement of adjustments, rules and techniques that required detailed understanding. It was not like the design of college D or Jimmy Johnson's D where it was simple and needed to be played fast.

However, somehow Gregg Williams, Jim Johnson (Philly D) and the Schwartz run some complex blitzes and coverages make it work. I don't think Dom was so far outside the norm that it couldn't work, but it made life tough for rooks (see early Nick Collins or Josh Jones).