Triangle of Authority is Here

[pbmax]

Pete Dougherty @PeteDougherty

One big piece of news in Packers' official announcement of Brian Gutekunst promotion to GM: He, Russ Ball & coach Mike McCarthy will all report directly to Mark Murphy. In previous setup going back to late 1991, only the GM reported to team president.


Its been a good run.

[pbmax]

Brian Gutekunst is GM
Russ Ball is now Director of Football Operations
Mike McCarthy is now reporting directly to Mark Murphy

Eliot Wolf has had his title taken by Ball. No word in press release about him.

[pbmax]

Michael Cohen @Michael_Cohen13

#Packers have officially named Brian Gutekunst their new GM. Russ Ball was promoted to vice president/director of football operations. No mention of Eliot Wolf one way or another in the press release. His future will have to be decided by Murphy/Gutekunst/Ball in the near future.

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
In a departure from previous practice, #Packers will have Gutekunst, McCarthy and Ball all report to president Mark Murphy. It means Gutekunst has control over the roster but not head coach. There are 7 or 8 teams who do it that way.

“The process of identifying our next general manager gave us the opportunity to analyze our entire football operation,” said Murphy. “While we have enjoyed a lot of success, we need to improve.” Cont...

cont... “While I understand this is a departure from the Packers’ current structure, it will serve to increase the breadth and frequency of communication and collaboration. Ultimately, it will make the Packers better.”

This means Gutekunst can recommend a coaching change to Murphy but he can’t execute it without Murphy’s approval. Same thing with Ball, who has been promoted to Executive VP of football operations.

Hinted at in this move by Murphy is that “communication and collaboration” was waning under Thompson, who oversaw everything on the football side. Now Murphy oversees it all. He obviously didn’t like everything he saw in the football operation, especially sides working together.

HE NEEDED TO FIRE MORE PEOPLE. INSTEAD, HE PROMOTED THEM ALL.

[3irty1]

Ugh. The beauty of the Packers lacking a traditional owner is the compartmentalization of football decisions with football people.

[mraynrand]

Does Gute need Murphy's approval to sign big ticket FA? Does he have key to executive washroom, or do they have to use both keys at the same time?

[mraynrand]

Ugh. The beauty of the Packers lacking a traditional owner is the compartmentalization of football decisions with football people.

I think it's more an issue now of how power is distributed as well as accountability. Murphy must have gotten some heat from the executive committee, which can fire him. He's now placed himself more directly in the loop. The next guy to be fired if things don't go so well will be Murphy.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Oh bloody hell

[pbmax]

I think it's more an issue now of how power is distributed as well as accountability. Murphy must have gotten some heat from the executive committee, which can fire him. He's now placed himself more directly in the loop. The next guy to be fired if things don't go so well will be Murphy.

Yeah, but in trying to solve whatever communication/coordination problem he had, he now has three separate lines of authority that do not terminate until the top.

Murphy is now, effectively, the GM when decisions cannot be agreed to. Probably affects the draft less than FAs and contracts.

[pbmax]

Well, Murphy will be in the public firing line, that's for sure.

Packer fans have bought the GM must be in charge as the solution to 20 years in the wilderness. I kinda like it myself even if I wasn't here to suffer through it.

None of these guys is worth it from what we know.

[call_me_ishmael]

Whattttt? Doesn't this go against exactly what Murphy was saying in his press conference? I do not understand this decision at all.

I think it's clear Russ Ball is the next Murphy, not GM. Just make him EVP of something-something Packers cap table.
Why not give Gutekunst the autonomy he needs and have MM report to him as it always has been?

Dumb.

[pbmax]

Whattttt? Doesn't this go against exactly what Murphy was saying in his press conference? I do not understand this decision at all.

I think it's clear Russ Ball is the next Murphy, not GM. Just make him EVP of something-something Packers cap table.
Why not give Gutekunst the autonomy he needs and have MM report to him as it always has been?

Dumb.

It certainly appears that the GM now needs the formal sign-off of the CEO to fire the coach. Which is not what he said last week.

[Teamcheez1]

Do any teams run their front office like the new Packers structure?

[pbmax]

Do any teams run their front office like the new Packers structure?

Silverstein said 7 or 8 do. The only one I can think of is Cleveland. There may be others that are more successful.

Seattle comes to mind now. Schneider has control of the 90 man roster, Carrol the 53. And I bet John can't fire Pete without Paul Allen saying OK.

But it usually foments lines being drawn and blame being shifted as people concentrate on what others are or are not doing.

[pbmax]

Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora
In new GB model. Mark Murphy - team pres - wields great control. He and Ball will control flow of $. He who controls $ rules the team ...


Well it seems like a coup of non football people at this point. Short of hiring Bob Sanders as HC, I could not be more disappointed.

[Smidgeon]

Time to bring back the legendary Morgan Burnett ACL tear thread.

Yeesh.

Maybe it will work, but I am convinced Murphy got that decision wrong.

[Teamcheez1]

Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora
In new GB model. Mark Murphy - team pres - wields great control. He and Ball will control flow of $. He who controls $ rules the team ...


Well it seems like a coup of non football people at this point. Short of hiring Bob Sanders as HC, I could not be more disappointed.

I read this as an indictment of TT's management style. They expected TT to properly manage the draft, MM's coaching, and FA acquisition. They probably wanted TT to operate differently, and he refused. Now, if you don't want to be a team player, you can be shown the door. No proof of this, just a theory.

[run pMc]

yuck

[3irty1]

All the things Murphy seems to want changed were my favorite things about TT's impregnable management style. Communication? Why? The media are a bunch of petulant children. Give them nothing and let them write their stories about that. Its cathartic for the JS comment fans and the rest of us get the JS comment fans to be entertained by. MM wants playmakers? Duh. A boss who shuffles around sipping a water bottle with beady little shark eyes is just what you need to get people selfstarting.

I hope his new job is head of PR. And I hope it took a concerted effort to keep TT as personable as he was before. I want him stopwatching every question he's asked in press conferences and stuff.

[Smidgeon]

Time to start the Fire Murphy thread. You know, in case this backfires and we can all claim prescience.

[pbmax]

All the things Murphy seems to want changed were my favorite things about TT's impregnable management style. Communication? Why? The media are a bunch of petulant children. Give them nothing and let them write their stories about that. Its cathartic for the JS comment fans and the rest of us get the JS comment fans to be entertained by. MM wants playmakers? Duh. A boss who shuffles around sipping a water bottle with beady little shark eyes is just what you need to get people selfstarting.

I hope his new job is head of PR. And I hope it took a concerted effort to keep TT as personable as he was before. I want him stopwatching every question he's asked in press conferences and stuff.

Yeah, it sorta seems that way. I much preferred competence and clear line of authority behind a wall of silence versus a bunch of blather and terrible results.

I think the Packers owe the public more on the PR front, but am not willing to sacrifice the organization's structure to get it.

This new unit will leak like a sieve.

[red]

So, only Murphy can fire fat mike?

It seems like this just takes all the power away from gutie

[channtheman]

I don't like this. GM should have authority to hire/fire his coach.

[pbmax]

I don't like this. GM should have authority to hire/fire his coach.

Murphy said 7 or 8 of teams in playoffs have this arrangement.

I don't like it either.

[pbmax]

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Eliot Wolf has an offer for a prominent job on Gutekunst’s staff, source said. But he has to decide if he wants to come back before details are hammered out.

[call_me_ishmael]

Murphy said 7 or 8 of teams in playoffs have this arrangement.

I don't like it either.

It's an interesting point. It seems like it creates the possibility for more drama and in-fighting to me personally.

[Fritz]

Murphy said 7 or 8 of teams in playoffs have this arrangement.

I don't like it either.


Nor do I.

While I actually voted for Guteus Maximus in the Rat poll, I don't like at all the process by which he got the job - specifically, MM's sitting in on the interviews and seeming to have so much say.

Thus I like even less though am not surprised by this new power structure. It gives MM too much control, and I don't like that, in part because I was around for the Phil Bengston/Dan Devine/Bart Starr/Forrest Gregg/Lindsay Infante years. Not that they all had that power, but the whole Packer organization was listing.

So if Mikey-Mike fails next year, can he blame Gutes for a lack of talent and complain to Murphy? Does Gutes have to get permission from Mikey-Mike before he drafts someone? Why is the guy who threw everyone around him under the bus (offensive assistants, the DC, the GM, Russ Ball) have even more authority than he did before it became clear he couldn't get his two-years-in-training-he's-my-guy backup quarterback ready to keep the team at .500 until Rodgers could get back?

I don't like this one bit.

And I wonder why MM has gotten more say in matters and now doesn't even report to the GM. All I can really come up with is that this connects somehow to the most important person in the organization: Aaron Rodgers.

I wonder if Murphy polled Rodgers and Rodgers said he didn't want to start over with a new coach; this could imply that he'd bolt Green Bay if the team started over from the ground up. I can see not wanting to start over with a new HC - I think it's problematic when the QB is a future Hall of Famer and the coach is a newbie. See Favre, Brett, and Sherman, Mike. You're the new sheriff in town, you want to make sure everyone knows you're large and in charge, but you also don't want to ruffle your meal ticket's feathers, and your meal ticket knows that.

Nonetheless, this bodes ill for the future of this franchise. A handcuffed, impotent GM, a coach willing to throw others under the bus while accruing more power, a team president who puts a GM and coach on parallel lines of authority.

I hope I am wrong, and would be happy to eat crow after the Packers win next year's Super Bowl, or better yet, deny that I ever wrote any of this.

[pbmax]

I agree (with Ishmael). Silverstein points out the problem right here:

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Murphy said he would allow his people to manage and not stick his nose in their business. But what if Gutekunst says no to a free agent that McCarthy wants? Does McCarthy go behind his back to Murphy? Does Murphy overrule his GM? Buck stopped with Ted previously. No get arounds.

During the introductory PC, Murphy seemed a little unprepared for the question, if RB handles contacts and BG handles roster and players, what is McCarthy reporting to you about?

Hi first answer was game plans, which I guarantee you is not #1 on Mike's list. Its an avenue for McCarthy to bitch about players on the roster and needs that are unfulfilled.

Its reverse Sherman-ism. McCarthy doesn't have the responsibility of the GM, but he gets to complain to the CEO about him.

[pbmax]

Nor do I.

Thus I like even less though am not surprised by this new power structure. It gives MM too much control, and I don't like that, in part because I was around for the Phil Bengston/Dan Devine/Bart Starr/Forrest Gregg/Lindsay Infante years. Not that they all had that power, but the whole Packer organization was listing.

...

And I wonder why MM has gotten more say in matters and now doesn't even report to the GM. All I can really come up with is that this connects somehow to the most important person in the organization: Aaron Rodgers.


I think this is exactly that. Rodgers gives M3 leverage, especially with AR's contract coming up.

And his leverage will allow him to critique the performance of his former boss to the CEO. Its delusional and I am not sure if BG understands how much pressure having M3 in the room will generate. He seems like a genuinely nice guy, but he's going to have to deflate Stubby to make this work.

And Mike doesn't even need to fall in love with a specific FA to apply pressure. He just needs to note positions that could use help or a veteran. I would almost say this could work if M3 only got to comment on offense. At least there would be a plan and a scheme.

But what does M3 know about defensive drafting or FA signing?

[pbmax]

In Seattle, Carrol got there first with authority on the final 53. Schneider was second, was chosen by Pete and gets the crack at the 90 man roster.

Its clear cut and there is some logic to it. Pete needs to live with his own choices during the year.

In Green Bay, the HC interviewed the GM but the GM controls the roster at both ends plus FA. McCarthy has no outlet except to complain at the weekly luncheon.

[George Cumby]

Welp. Murphy done fucked it up. It’s been a good, long ride boys.

[Smidgeon]

Doesn't Andy Reid report to the owner too? Was he hired before or after Dorsey? I guess that's irrelevant now because in its current iteration, KC operates like Seattle. Not sure if Reid has roster say so or if he's just a voice in the room to add to the decision maker.

[Fritz]

Well, at least I'm prepared if it all goes into the shitter. I lived through the Forrest Gregg years.

[George Cumby]

Well, at least I'm prepared if it all goes into the shitter. I lived through the Forrest Gregg years.

Those years shaped and scarred many of us.

[mraynrand]

Well, at least I'm prepared if it all goes into the shitter. I lived through the Forrest Gregg years.

"you saw it."

[MadScientist]

Gute not having the authority to fire the HC is bad. This could workout badly if all these people going directly to Murphy undermines the GM. On the other hand, it sounds like there were some internal communications issues in the Packers. It's possible that TT compartmentalized the coaching from the scouting from the finances causing friction and a sense of people not being trusted. Opening up those lines could make things a whole lot better.

Hope for the latter, be prepared to fire Murphy in case of the former.

[Teamcheez1]

We are on day one of the new hire and management structure and this entire board is turning into a bunch of hand-wringing old ladies.

[mraynrand]

Gute not having the authority to fire the HC is bad. This could workout badly if all these people going directly to Murphy undermines the GM. On the other hand, it sounds like there were some internal communications issues in the Packers. It's possible that TT compartmentalized the coaching from the scouting from the finances causing friction and a sense of people not being trusted. Opening up those lines could make things a whole lot better.

Hope for the latter, be prepared to fire Murphy in case of the former.

I suppose the worst case scenario is BG going to Murphy at the end of next season and saying "We need to fire Stubby" If Murphy says no, BG would have no choice but to resign. And that's when the org would start to turn into Cleveland, where anyone coming in would wonder about their authority.

My guess is that the contract extension and the change in power structure was made to protect Stubby from looking like a lame duck coach for one year. Regardless, Stubby, much like Sherman, looks like he's on shaky ground, so that recruiting coaches are going to wonder if they are just going to be in town for a year.

Of course, there is the possibility that the change in power structure is meant to strengthen Stubby's position and power overall (like an actual promotion), so that he can guarantee multiple years. Perhaps this is an alternate view of why Stubby is turning over coaches - not because he was forced to, but because he has guarantees and can take the chance of reorganizing. Still, if guys get sacked after one bad year with the MVP injured, then anything goes. (After writing that, I feel less sure about any of it :roll:).

Bottom line for me is that I feel like I have no way of knowing where the power resides, except of course with Murphy. If I were an interviewing coach, especially the DC, I would insist on meeting with Murphy to ask what the hell is going on.

[3irty1]

Seems like Ted was the Otto Von Bismarck of this org in that he was the centerpiece of a diplomatic sausage machine that only he could run. He served the function that alcohol plays at family gatherings. Got a complaint? Take it into Ted's lair. Which is pitch black except for the 4" TV ted watches film on that illuminates his head like a disembodied ghost. The floor covered in empty water bottles and discarded college basketball film. You go in there and tell him what you need but find it hard to do so with the passion you felt before you crossed the threshold. Ted nods and tells you "we'll get it cleaned up" and stares at something else.

Its too bad he had a stroke and came to work with a lunchbox full of paint chips or whatever. That was the perfect system.

[mraynrand]

We are on day one of the new hire and management structure and this entire board is turning into a bunch of hand-wringing old ladies.

Not so much hand-wringing I think. Rather that the new power structure invites speculation, don't you agree?

[mraynrand]

Seems like Ted was the Otto Von Bismarck of this org in that he was the centerpiece of a diplomatic sausage machine that only he could run. He served the function that alcohol plays at family gatherings. Got a complaint? Take it into Ted's lair. Which is pitch black except for the 4" TV ted watches film on that illuminates his head like a disembodied ghost. The floor covered in empty water bottles and discarded college basketball film. You go in there and tell him what you need but find it hard to do so with the passion you felt before you crossed the threshold. Ted nods and tells you "we'll get it cleaned up" and stares at something else.

Its too bad he had a stroke and came to work with a lunchbox full of paint chips or whatever. That was the perfect system.

holy hell. This is more confusing than the new power structure.

[pbmax]

We are on day one of the new hire and management structure and this entire board is turning into a bunch of hand-wringing old ladies.

I liked Gutekunst at the press conference. I can get on board with him. He was nervous but stepped in fewer holes than Murphy. I like him especially if he is able to land Wolf the younger for another year or two or gets McCloughan to be super utility scout.

And everyone will get a honeymoon period in the first FA go through.

So they have a year to get it turned around. The next question comes quickly though: there is no Teryl Austin at DC and I think the prospects for Fangio are low. I have heard of no other candidates. if Mike hires Whitt or Perry, how good does his next year need to be to sign him up again?

If you are the new GM, how much rope do you give McCarthy? Young guy might want to select his own coach if Murphy will let him.

[pbmax]

Doesn't Andy Reid report to the owner too? Was he hired before or after Dorsey? I guess that's irrelevant now because in its current iteration, KC operates like Seattle. Not sure if Reid has roster say so or if he's just a voice in the room to add to the decision maker.

Reid was hired before Dorsey. But when he left, the new GM was supposed to have been given final roster authority.

I don't know if Reid still reports to the owner though. it might mirror the Packers now.

[pbmax]

Seems like Ted was the Otto Von Bismarck of this org in that he was the centerpiece of a diplomatic sausage machine that only he could run. He served the function that alcohol plays at family gatherings. Got a complaint? Take it into Ted's lair. Which is pitch black except for the 4" TV ted watches film on that illuminates his head like a disembodied ghost. The floor covered in empty water bottles and discarded college basketball film. You go in there and tell him what you need but find it hard to do so with the passion you felt before you crossed the threshold. Ted nods and tells you "we'll get it cleaned up" and stares at something else.

Its too bad he had a stroke and came to work with a lunchbox full of paint chips or whatever. That was the perfect system.

I am OK with this as long as he isn't storing his urine indoors as well.

#Hughes

[mraynrand]

if Mike hires Whitt or Perry, how good does his next year need to be to sign him up again?

The defense needs to be significantly improved. APRH (meaning 3-4 starters aren't lost for most of the season), they better be in the top 10 defenses, especially if BG brings in say a top FA pass rusher.

Packers need to be competitive in the NFC Championship game to protect Stubby - that's what I'd tell Murphy if I were BG. I will get him the players, but he'd better produce.

[3irty1]

I hope once MM moves on, the triangle can be disbanded and Gutekunst can run the team. But moving Ball's job parallel with the GM seems to make that unlikely too. I just can't fathom why its good to have a money guy that can tell the other members of the triangle of authority no.

[gbgary]

the triumvirate.

[Joemailman]

Silverstein said 7 or 8 do. The only one I can think of is Cleveland. There may be others that are more successful.

Seattle comes to mind now. Schneider has control of the 90 man roster, Carrol the 53. And I bet John can't fire Pete without Paul Allen saying OK.

But it usually foments lines being drawn and blame being shifted as people concentrate on what others are or are not doing.

Murphy said in the PC that 13 teams have the coach reporting directly to the owner. Including, he said, 7 of the playoff teams. He was quick to point out that he is not an owner.

[denverYooper]

Those years shaped and scarred many of us.

It's time for this new generation of Packer fans to learn a thing or two about pain.

[denverYooper]

I read the updates from Murphy's presser while on my afternoon walk today. My first thought was that PB would be extremely pleased with their new organizational structure :).

[Joemailman]

I'll say this about Murphy. He inherited an organizational structure that he felt was no longer working as well as it used to. Rather than continue with the status quo, he made changes, knowing he will be blamed if it doesn't work. Aren't most people around here unsatisfied with the status quo?

[texaspackerbacker]

Gosh, what a bunch of nervous nellies on steroids.

The Good that outweighs any bad here is getting rid of Ted Thompson. The worst case would be a conspiracy - triumverate of Ted followers if you want to call it that - seeking to continue his rotten way of doing things. I don't think that is the case, though. Clearly, all this title shifting was for the purpose of getting people they wanted to stay. Undoubtedly, neither Gutekunst or anybody else would have taken the GM job without a clear definition of the limits of everybody's authority. And McCarthy - who Murphy and/or the Board clearly want to keep happy - would not have been happy with the power to fire him handed to someone new guy or some younger with relatively less clout.

I say again, what matters most is POLICY. We will have to see over time just what the new policy will be, but the fact that Ted was eased out seems to say that the powers that be want something different.

[hoosier]

Seems like Ted was the Otto Von Bismarck of this org in that he was the centerpiece of a diplomatic sausage machine that only he could run. He served the function that alcohol plays at family gatherings. Got a complaint? Take it into Ted's lair. Which is pitch black except for the 4" TV ted watches film on that illuminates his head like a disembodied ghost. The floor covered in empty water bottles and discarded college basketball film. You go in there and tell him what you need but find it hard to do so with the passion you felt before you crossed the threshold. Ted nods and tells you "we'll get it cleaned up" and stares at something else.

Its too bad he had a stroke and came to work with a lunchbox full of paint chips or whatever. That was the perfect system.
You've watched one too many iterations of Apocalypse Now. Staring to sound like Martin Sheen vocalyzing Michael Herr. I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. Thats my dream, thats my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor. And surviving.

[denverYooper]

I'll say this about Murphy. He inherited an organizational structure that he felt was no longer working as well as it used to. Rather than continue with the status quo, he made changes, knowing he will be blamed if it doesn't work. Aren't most people around here unsatisfied with the status quo?

When a root cause of failure is determined to be "communication", the solution is often to reorganize. Get the right people in the right places, break down silos, move to the cloud.

[Farley Face]

The next question comes quickly though: there is no Teryl Austin at DC and I think the prospects for Fangio are low. I have heard of no other candidates.

Rotoworld: ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Packers will interview ex-Browns coach Mike Pettine for their defensive-coordinator vacancy.

[call_me_ishmael]

Mike Pettine is known as a pretty good defensive coach, right?

[Joemailman]

Mike Pettine is known as a pretty good defensive coach, right?


During his four years as defensive coordinator in New York, the Jets finished in the top 10 for yards allowed four times. New York was first in yards and points in 2009..

[Farley Face]

Mike Pettine is known as a pretty good defensive coach, right?

Rotoworld: Pettine and Packers coach Mike McCarthy have never worked together, but both are Pennsylvania-raised and spent time at Pittsburgh in the early-'90s. Pettine has been out of the league since being fired as the Browns' head coach following the 2015 season. He ran solid defenses in Buffalo and New York as one of coach Rex Ryan's righthand men. Pettine has run 3-4 fronts in the past.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I will gladly welcome Pettine. Forgot about him.

[Joemailman]

Perhaps most impressively, Pettine won 10 games in 2 seasons as Browns head coach. Or 9 more than Hue Jackson.

[Bretsky]

Brian Gutekunst is GM
Russ Ball is now Director of Football Operations
Mike McCarthy is now reporting directly to Mark Murphy

Eliot Wolf has had his title taken by Ball. No word in press release about him.


Wolf was probably on a plane to Cleveland within a few hours of finding out about Gooter

[Joemailman]

Wolf was probably on a plane to Cleveland within a few hours of finding out about Gooter

Wolf has an interview with Cleveland tomorrow.

[Farley Face]

Wolf was probably on a plane to Cleveland within a few hours of finding out about Gooter

TTs old role was listed thusly on Packers.com:

Ted Thompson, Executive Vice President, General Manager & Director of Football Operations

Ball got the EVP piece, Gute got the GM piece, and Wolf was already also listed as Director of FO so I'm confused why he and TT both had that piece previously (??). Either way yeah, Wolf is likely gone. Too bad as he is the stronger Pro Personnel guy, would have made a nice Asst. GM to Gute's college experience. If he leaves do we bring in Scot McCloughan? Gute mentioned him specifically in his presser as his biggest mentor early in his scouting career. He brings baggage with the booze so may not pass the Packer People litmus test (eye roll) but I'd be all for it personally.

[Farley Face]

Plus Wolf's role in Pro Personnel will only become more important under a new regime that plans to more actively leverage this thing called. I think, free agency.

[pbmax]

Eliot Wolf was the Director of Football Operations.

Russ Ball is now both an EVP and Director of Football Operations. For a while, people took that second title as proof that Wolf was the heir apparent.

Why that title was switched and what new one EW would get is unclear. He has already been the Director of Player Personnel.

[mraynrand]

I'll say this about Murphy. He inherited an organizational structure that he felt was no longer working as well as it used to. Rather than continue with the status quo, he made changes, knowing he will be blamed if it doesn't work. Aren't most people around here unsatisfied with the status quo?

I mentioned in another thread that the move puts Murphy's head on the chopping block if things go south. If nothing else, I admire his willingness to put the target on his back. I have no idea if the structure will work; I suspect it's highly dependent on the quality of the people in the several leadership positions. Stubby seems like a decent person but I don't know anything about the other three.

I still say they need to bring in some assistants from other successful front offices. Let Wolf go cut his teeth elsewhere - he can come back in 10 years or so to take over after Gute steps away following his third Superbowl.

[pbmax]

Here is an idea: Eliot Wolf was the problem inside?

They quite literally gave Ball the job title Wolf had the day before. That's a sharp stick in the eye. You can make up any title you want and increase pay.

Murphy (and Ted) obviously love Ball. BG got the GM job probably on the strength of his personnel background and a helpful push from McCarthy. No one was left backing Wolf.

[pbmax]

When a root cause of failure is determined to be "communication", the solution is often to reorganize. Get the right people in the right places, break down silos, move to the cloud.

Exactly. Ted may not have caused the hard feelings, but he didn't solve them either.

BG has been told its not just his job to do it, Murphy will mediate.

And Wolf has been left out to dangle a bit. Taking his title and giving it to Ball is hard to read as just a promotion for Ball. Seems like a message.

[pbmax]

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/01/browns_gm_john_dorsey_wants_to.html#incart_river_i ndex

Read the details of what Dorsey is trying to do in Cleveland. They haven't finalized (or at least made it public) that they have a deal and job with Highsmith.

He is courting Eliot Wolf but might unseat two of the current guys to do it (one of them is linked to the analytics side, the other is a well regarded traditional scout). Sounds like Dorsey is still stocking the cabinet with folks more tied to him than to past regime.

[Teamcheez1]

So some of of our staff (and ex-staff) members are looking for employment in Cleveland? That tells me all I need to know about their value.

[George Cumby]

So some of of our staff (and ex-staff) members are looking for employment in Cleveland? That tells me all I need to know about their value.

Maybe not. Ownership aside, with Dorsey there now, there's a lot of potential for growth. If you were part of the team that resurrected the Browns, that'd be a feather in your cap.

[mraynrand]

So some of of our staff (and ex-staff) members are looking for employment in Cleveland? That tells me all I need to know about their value.

It shouldn't. Dorsey is running the show in Cleveland and word is that he let Haslem know that he runs it or he's gone. So either Dorsey is competent or not. What do you think?

[3irty1]

The "communication" in this instance reads like an excuse more than an actual problem.

Ted was successful football czar for a long time and was pretty hands off with his guys. When the throne went up for grabs Ted's subordinates all scramble for a piece of the empire. Had MM canned Capers years ago, he'd probably be the new czar. The GM might be working for him as in New England. But as it is he's on thin ice himself and there is whatever is true about his relationship with Russ Ball to consider as well. The triangle is the solution that keeps a scout in Ted's chair and keeps all these divas who were subordinate to Ted in the building without Ted. The real tradeoff is a single source of leadership for interchangeable parts. You can now cleanly fire the GM or coach without having to fire both.

[Teamcheez1]

It shouldn't. Dorsey is running the show in Cleveland and word is that he let Haslem know that he runs it or he's gone. So either Dorsey is competent or not. What do you think?

I doubt Dorsey told Haslem anything. I would take my chances with about 31 other franchises before I hung my hat in Cleveland.

[mraynrand]

I doubt Dorsey told Haslem anything. I would take my chances with about 31 other franchises before I hung my hat in Cleveland.

I have my doubts too, but that's the considered opinion of the geniuses on local radio with 'inside connections'

[pbmax]

The most disappointing thing with Murphy's change is that when asked point blank about what he would be managing with the head coach, he drew a blank.

Then said game plans.

It seems ill-considered, to say the least. Harlan said he wanted the Executive Committee out of the GM's ear and allow him to make decisions based on his expertise, not the business community's. Since Murphy is not an owner (which is bad enough) but an employee, this seems to be going back to a bad model.

[Smidgeon]

Exactly. Ted may not have caused the hard feelings, but he didn't solve them either.

BG has been told its not just his job to do it, Murphy will mediate.

And Wolf has been left out to dangle a bit. Taking his title and giving it to Ball is hard to read as just a promotion for Ball. Seems like a message.

I thought I read somewhere that last year both TT and wunderkind had the same title "Director of Football Operations". Perhaps I misread.

To the comment about maybe wunderkind being the source of the leaking: maybe. He's still young, could be very hotblooded in an industry that demands confidence and assertiveness. And the patient, steady leadership needed to run a franchise may not be there yet. Of course, I'm pulling this all from the Dark Dimension...

[mraynrand]

I see Murphy’s non-answer more as evidence that he won’t be that involved. More like a boss who will poke his head in the door a little more often to check that things are going OK. Maybe he’ll schedule a leadership retreat and have some trust falls, but mostly he’ll be hands off except ‘facilitating communication’ I think.

[mraynrand]

If performance and record improve I suspect little or no involvement. Might be more mediation right up front setting priorities in FA and the draft.

[woodbuck27]

Pete Dougherty @PeteDougherty

One big piece of news in Packers' official announcement of Brian Gutekunst promotion to GM: He, Russ Ball & coach Mike McCarthy will all report directly to Mark Murphy. In previous setup going back to late 1991, only the GM reported to team president.


Its been a good run.

Doesn't that structure make President and CEO Mark Murphy now also the REAL GENERAL MANAGER of the Green Bay Packers Football Operations?

What REAL POWER does gm Brian Gutekunst or Bee Gee really have now when he's positioned laterally with the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers or Mike MCcarthy.

If MM wants to whine for whatever ! Flat out 'complain he's failing', because of whatever ! He can do so bypassing Bee Gee by going directly to Mark Murphy.

That's a recipe for a clear and utter disaster.

That's in all likelihood going to create an obvious Power Struggle between MIke McCarthy and Brian Gutekunst. That will mean if that 'in fact comes to fruition', someone or both have to go ! :whaa:

What's Mark Murphy thinking! This organizational move is a lot more than using Mike McCarthy, as a mere consult, in a Process and choosing a Franchise GM. This move cannot Please Bee Gee if he's a strong Leader. A strong Leader isn't going to appreciate any underling going around and over top of him with anything.

The Packer GM used to be the Packer HC's BOSS.

Going around (gm) Brian Gutekunst to the TOP (Mark Murphy), with issues MM might have, is a real possibility.

Is Mark Murphy prepared for the Fall Out and this?

Mark Murphy had to make a correction for Ted Thompson and clear evidence he hasn't been fit to be the Packer GM for some 2-3 Seasons (at least). Was TT ever fit in terms of being a GM and all in winning Super Bowls?!

Today that's 'a Moot Question', as what was and wasn't done is in Packer Nations past.

What is an issue now:

Mark Murphy taking a mess and turning it into 'a GREATER MESS'?

Now I'll (with great interest), read the remainder of this thread to see what other Packerrats read into this alarming news.

This Thread: It's suddenly HOT on Packerrats.

[woodbuck27]

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Eliot Wolf has an offer for a prominent job on Gutekunst’s staff, source said. But he has to decide if he wants to come back before details are hammered out.

Is Eliot Wolf prepared to report to Mike McCarthy?

Eliot Wolf isn't dumb.

He's outta 'the Circus' that's 1265 Lombardi Avenue ASAP and his real future.

It starts today and right here:

https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns/browns-gm-john-dorsey-would-like-to-hire-packers-exec-eliot-wolf-according-to-report

[Smidgeon]

If performance and record improve I suspect little or no involvement. Might be more mediation right up front setting priorities in FA and the draft.

Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?

[gbgary]

Here is an idea: Eliot Wolf was the problem inside?

They quite literally gave Ball the job title Wolf had the day before. That's a sharp stick in the eye.

yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol

[Teamcheez1]

You had to figure that whoever didn't get the job between Gutekunst and Wolf would most likely be leaving. There is no great surprise here.

[Carolina_Packer]

As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?

[Smidgeon]

As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?

M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.

[gbgary]

M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.

when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.

[pbmax]

when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

[woodbuck27]

yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol

The Green Bay Packers or?:

The Green Bay Hatchets.

The Hypocrisy and Tall Tales are thick at 1265 Lombardi Avenue.

[woodbuck27]

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

Then there is Video evidence of incredible talent that is obvious and makes your mouth water even if you never saw a Pro Football game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMF-uBQGAI

Saquon Barkley Career Highlights

[gbgary]

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

obviously but he sees the speed, athleticism, instincts, etc in that game tape. i didn't say final decision.

[mraynrand]

Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?

That's the way I'd prefer it. But I think Murphy may just help mediate between the other 3. I don't see him pushing players or strategy unless someone asks him for advice - but why would they? The only finance I see him getting involved in are any big ticket items, like Rodgers' contract or a premier free agent with lots of guaranteed money. And he's be involved anyway, so he could defend it publicly and explain to the board.

I note that I could be totally wrong - Murphy may be trying to innervate the organization. I think that would be bad, but we don't know yet.

[MadScientist]

Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.

[Joemailman]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

[pbmax]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

Yeah, but he consulted Charlie Casserly, who was a decidedly mixed bag as GM.

There needs to be separation between football and business (outside of the cap and cash budget for players) and between upper management and football. Murphy has bent two walls Harlan put up for a reason. One was the CEO's direct involvement in football decisions (Parins' model). The other is the Exec Committee interfering in football operations. Murphy can choose to avoid the former by being wise and restrained. But the EC can force him to intervene as in the latter because he is their employee and he has breached the wall already for the coach, so it will be harder to refuse.

If they win, no one will care. That is true if they governed by Ouija board. But if they have tough times, this structure invites more silos, not less, and internecine warfare between departments that instead of being ignored by Thompson, will be brought to Murphy's door to fix. Any business student can tell you the silo problem cannot be solved by putting management in a room once a week.

I suspect that the communication issues largely revolved around the "people are not taking me seriously" or "people are not listening to me" variety and centered around Ted.

1. He won't take cues from Pro Personnel about FA
2. He gives the coaches players other than those they prefer
3. Coaches take the players and play them out of position

All of this is normal in any football organization. No one is ever completely happy. Thompson kept a lid on it internally and publicly. Murphy has now given it a weekly meeting. Crediting Rand, Murphy did address this directly and took the responsibility himself, so he has not abandoned the staff to consensus building alone.

[pbmax]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?

[Joemailman]

Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?

He'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

[RashanGary]

Im ok with it. All of these guys work well together. And Murphy seems to have confidence in his ability to promote, encourage and inspire better communication. Ultimately it’s his reputation and legacy at stake, so him taking command..... I respect it. Now let’s see if he can raise the bar.

[pbmax]

Its also possible that once Rodgers signs, M3 will be on the world's shortest lease. Murphy might not be happy to be put on this spot.

[texaspackerbacker]

Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.

Excellent Post.

Logically, this is the way things should be, and we can only hope what should be actually is.

[woodbuck27]

yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol

TRUTH from the outset would have been the proper start and dismissing Ted Thompson. He should have been outright and simply dismissed.

" Thanks Ted and inside this envelope is a very HUGE $Cheque$, a token of our appreciation."

This is 'a no brainer':

Packer Head Coach Mike McCarthy had to be kept completely out of the LOOP and the actual Process of naming a NEW Packer GM.

As it really was and 1265 Lombardi Avenue:

The Packers Front Office needed to hire the very BEST PR Person in North America.

As the facts are now being revealed. 1265 Lombardi Avenue: They've made, may then be expected to make more blunders and absolute fools of themselves.

It's a 'too common sideshow act'. They are now creating. Personalities don't change easily. They're embarrassing PACKER NATION.

These Guy's could have handled it better. They broke the Cardinal Rule and Good Management. The person who is mainly to blame is obviously Green Bay Packer President and CEO Mark Murphy. ThatGuy it seems didn't have a real clue and what was going on with Ted Thompson and that's inexcusable. Ted Thompson needed to be dealt with years ago.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/37/34/80/373480466bbac6fe70493892dc122ac8--moe-howard-the-three-stooges.jpg

[Fritz]

That's a great picture, Woody. Mike McCarthy is Larry, Gutekunst is Shep and Murphy is Moe.

I wonder what Aaron Rodgers is thinking about all this. I wonder if he's directly or indirectly behind some of it.

In Detroit, MattStaff has said publicly that he hopes the new coach, whoever he is, will keep Jim Bob Cooter as OC. Now people here are wondering if that's why Patricia, or whatever his name is, now seems more interested in the Gints job than the Leos job, which he was rumored to have in his back pocket.

Lions might end up with Pat Shurmur.

On a side note, I understand why the Lions didn't let their D-Coordinator, Teryl Austin, talk to the Packers. That guy coached some good defenses that didn't have a heckuva lot of talent other than Darius Slay, Glover Quinn, and a very-often hurt Ziggy Ansah.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Rock-Report-Pump-Up-the-Volume/6489d53e-a463-4fee-8719-edb74f5e13e3

Posted: 18 hours ago

Rock Report: Pump Up the Volume

Strong statements and major changes have been the order of the day at Lambeau Field.

[mraynrand]

These Guy's could have handled it better. They broke the Cardinal Rule and Good Management.

What rule was broken?

[Zool]

What rule was broken?

You have to be in Arizona to know.

[mraynrand]

You have to be in Arizona to know.

What about Saint Louis?

[Fritz]

Instead of calling this a "triangle of authority" can we call MM, Murphy, and Gutekunst a "Thrupple"?

[Cheesehead Craig]

What about Saint Louis?

Louisville?

[denverYooper]

Louisville?

I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.

[esoxx]

I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.

That would explain your drinking problem.

[denverYooper]

That would explain your drinking problem.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.5pvDnU7dw_LVkJHCGlecRAHaHJ&w=190&h=183&c=8&o=5&pid=1.7

[Fritz]

I wonder, with the resurrection of the "Ted never signed (enough) free agents" mantra if Gutty will feel pressured to sign some big name free agent, whether it makes sense financially or not.

[Iron Mike]

I wonder, with the resurrection of the "Ted never signed (enough) free agents" mantra if Gutty will feel pressured to sign some big name free agent, whether it makes sense financially or not.

Sign Julius Peppers!!!!

[mraynrand]

I wonder, with the resurrection of the "Ted never signed (enough) free agents" mantra if Gutty will feel pressured to sign some big name free agent, whether it makes sense financially or not.

Do it! Do it! Come on! Do it now!

[3irty1]

The "TT never signs free agents" idea is all that really characterized Ted for the JS comments fanbase but I'm more interested in how Gutty will handle guys like Lang. Ted rarely ever kept a guy too long. Canary in the coal mine is Burnett this year. He seems like a guy TT would be perfectly happy to walk away from.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's not that Ted never signed free agents - just look at the parade of mediocrity last season. He only signed retreads, rejects, etc. - second or third tier players that virtually nobody else wanted. I HOPE Gutekunst feels pressured to go after one or more big time free agents this season and future seasons. Jimmy Graham would be a great start; The top cover Corner available would be good to get also. With the always increasing cap, the money should be available, and you can always structure contracts to make them work under the cap.

We got rid of Ted - FINALLY. Hopefully we also got rid of his way of doing things.

[denverYooper]

If we can only win free agency just one year.

[pbmax]

It's not that Ted never signed free agents - just look at the parade of mediocrity last season. He only signed retreads, rejects, etc. - second or third tier players that virtually nobody else wanted. I HOPE Gutekunst feels pressured to go after one or more big time free agents this season and future seasons. Jimmy Graham would be a great start; The top cover Corner available would be good to get also. With the always increasing cap, the money should be available, and you can always structure contracts to make them work under the cap.

We got rid of Ted - FINALLY. Hopefully we also got rid of his way of doing things.

All free agents are retreads and all carry hefty price tags in comparison to their production. Just because someone signs someone in the stupid money segment of the offseason is no guarantee of better success.

[mraynrand]

With the always increasing cap, the money should be available, and you can always structure contracts to make them work under the cap.

Mike Sherman Smiled

[Anti-Polar Bear]

It's not that Ted never signed free agents - just look at the parade of mediocrity last season. He only signed retreads, rejects, etc. - second or third tier players that virtually nobody else wanted. I HOPE Gutekunst feels pressured to go after one or more big time free agents this season and future seasons. Jimmy Graham would be a great start; The top cover Corner available would be good to get also. With the always increasing cap, the money should be available, and you can always structure contracts to make them work under the cap.

We got rid of Ted - FINALLY. Hopefully we also got rid of his way of doing things.

Affirmative.

If Graham gets to the market, he's a must-sign. Offer him something that he would be idiotic to refuse.

The part in bold, I've always said that any accounting major could cook/manage the cap. In the Packers' case, they don't even need an accountant. The Packers have a strength and conditioning coach managing their cap!

Belichickism is the way to do things when you have an elite QB on your roster. If the German Shepard (Gutekunst) continues on with that draft and develop shit, aka, Polar Bearism, off with his head, too!

[pbmax]

Still waiting for the available cap space that was left in 2017. Also want to know who you cut to fit in Jimmy Graham.

[Rastak]

All free agents are retreads and all carry hefty price tags in comparison to their production. Just because someone signs someone in the stupid money segment of the offseason is no guarantee of better success.


I like Spielman's method of targeting guys coming off their first contracts ala Linval Joseph.