Packers To Hire Pettine As DC

[Joemailman]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22017737/mike-pettine-hired-green-bay-packers-defensive-coordinator


The Green Bay Packers are expected to hire former Cleveland Browns head coach Mike Pettine as their defensive coordinator, a league source told ESPN's Adam Schefter.

[Joemailman]

Baltimore Ravens[edit]
Pettine joined the Ravens in 2001 and was promoted to OLB's coach in 2005 when Rex Ryan became defensive coordinator.

New York Jets[edit]
Pettine, as Rex Ryan's "right-hand man", reportedly received a three-year deal to lead the Jets defense. Pettine has been credited with contributing strongly to the Jets number one defense in the NFL in 2009. His tenure with the Jets ended after the 2012 season, with the expiration of his contract.[3]

Buffalo Bills[edit]
Pettine was hired to be the defensive coordinator of the Buffalo Bills on January 9, 2013.[4]

Cleveland Browns[edit]
Pettine was hired to be the head coach of the Cleveland Browns on January 23, 2014.[5] On January 3, 2016, the same day the Browns lost their last game of the season to finish 3–13, Pettine was fired, along with GM Ray Farmer. Pettine started 7-4 in the 2014 season, but the Browns lost their final 5 games to finish at 7-9. The Browns were 3-13 the following season. Pettine went 10–22 in his two seasons as Cleveland's head coach, losing 18 of his final 21 games.

Green Bay Packers

Pettine was hired to be the Defensive Coordinator for the Green Bay Packers on January 9th, 2018.

[Sparkey]

Great hire. He has had some really good defenses and he's a 3-4 guy.

[Joemailman]

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/09/packers-to-hire-mike-pettine-to-be-new-defensive-coordinator/


McCarthy can count on Pettine to coordinate an aggressive defense capable of creating disruption. His defenses finished in the top 10 for takeaways during five of his seven years as a defensive coordinator or head coach. Twice, he led defenses finishing second in the NFL in interceptions.

[Zool]

He had Ed Reed, Murderin Ray Lewis, Suggs. Then he had Revis in NYJ. I sure hope he’s not the Norv Turner of defenses.

[Sparkey]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2013/5/30/4378242/buffalo-bills-mike-pettine-defensive-scheme-defining-versatility

[Joemailman]

He had Ed Reed, Murderin Ray Lewis, Suggs. Then he had Revis in NYJ. I sure hope he’s not the Norv Turner of defenses.

His 5 years as DC, his defenses finished in he top ten every year. That doesn't happen because you have 1 shutdown corner.

[call_me_ishmael]

His 5 years as DC, his defenses finished in he top ten every year. That doesn't happen because you have 1 shutdown corner.

Calling Revis just a shut down corner is selling him short. He is arguably the best corner to play the game. You could easily get the top 10 every year by virtue of having a single player like Revis. That's like having a top 10 offense annually with Rodgers. It's almost a sure thing.

Gotta say, I don't love this hire. I would have preferred to go with somebody from the Gus Bradley cover 3 school of thought. I want a simple defense than enables players to play fast and not think so much. If this dude's defense requires veterans, good luck stuck the roster with fast and explosive vets. That would get expensive in a hurry and the offense would suffer.

In general, simplify and do less. I want people just reacting instead of thinking and flying around. No need to get cute and try to out fox the opponent. If you don't have the horses and can't beat a team straight up, then you need to get better talent.

[red]

so how does his 3-4 differ from capers 3-4?

him going 7-9 as the browns head coach is like taking a normal team to a 16-0 mark in back to back seasons

[Iron Mike]

Fuck, yeah!!! I'm calling the guy poutine from this point forwards.....

http://smokespoutinerie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Hangover.jpg

[Joemailman]

Calling Revis just a shut down corner is selling him short. He is arguably the best corner to play the game. You could easily get the top 10 every year by virtue of having a single player like Revis. That's like having a top 10 offense annually with Rodgers. It's almost a sure thing.

Gotta say, I don't love this hire. I would have preferred to go with somebody from the Gus Bradley cover 3 school of thought. I want a simple defense than enables players to play fast and not think so much. If this dude's defense requires veterans, good luck stuck the roster with fast and explosive vets. That would get expensive in a hurry and the offense would suffer.

In general, simplify and do less. I want people just reacting instead of thinking and flying around. No need to get cute and try to out fox the opponent. If you don't have the horses and can't beat a team straight up, then you need to get better talent.

In 2013 he becme the Buffalo DC and didn't have Revis. They had the NFL's #10 defense after being #26 the year before.

[wist43]

so how does his 3-4 differ from capers 3-4?

him going 7-9 as the browns head coach is like taking a normal team to a 16-0 mark in back to back seasons

Capers didn't run a 3-4, he ran a 2-4 ;)

[Joemailman]

so how does his 3-4 differ from capers 3-4?



No spray-painted hair.

http://www.apexchange.com/Content/preview/2014/20140908/12/dda4f5135afc1c235f0f6a706700d2d7.jpg

[Sparkey]

Pettine is known for mixing alignments and blending one- and two-gap techniques on any given play, with an end goal of disguise.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Quite happy.

[pbmax]

But will he report to Murphy?

[Smidgeon]

But will he report to Murphy?

Asking the real questions.

[pbmax]

Asking the real questions.

I might have a hard time letting this go. Be prepared for Murphy consultation jokes next year in Game Day threads the first time they are behind.

"I'm telling Mark on you ..."

[pbmax]

Bradley re-signed with the Chargers tonight too.

Pettine spent last year in Seattle. Good.

[Bretsky]

Bradley re-signed with the Chargers tonight too.

Petting spent last year in Seattle. Good.

Gotta like the hire; I feel better knowing Bradley prolly wanted to stay in SD

So it was Petting or Fangio (who might not have come anyways)


HIRING A SUCCESSFUL DC asopposed to one of the Internal inexperienced guys.

HIRING A PERSONNELL GUY over the Cappie Guy


Gotta like it.

[Bretsky]

I might have a hard time letting this go. Be prepared for Murphy consultation jokes next year in Game Day threads the first time they are behind.

"I'm telling Mark on you ..."


I don't like the setup either

I kinda wonder if MM really wanted Ball but felt a lot of pushback...fans....MM...AROD....plenty of others.....so he went with the Personnell Guy and made him less powerful ??

[pbmax]

I don't like the setup either

I kinda wonder if MM really wanted Ball but felt a lot of pushback...fans....MM...AROD....plenty of others.....so he went with the Personnell Guy and made him less powerful ??

I think Mike and the Pro Personnel guys were like Packer fans. Can we please sign a veteran corner even if they are terrible?

And how about one pricey free agent a year Ted?

Its hard to read the formerly current situation. They did that last year (it backfired of course) but I cannot read who talked Ted into it. It might just have been that he had an unusual number of holes on his roster compared to most years. He lost a Guard and TE he didn't think he would lose.

I don't mind Mike giving Guteus Maximus a shopping list, but take what you get and make it work.

[wist43]

HIRING A SUCCESSFUL DC asopposed to one of the Internal inexperienced guys.

HIRING A PERSONNELL GUY over the Cappie Guy

I agree.

[pbmax]

According to Twitter timeline on Pettine and Bradley, Packers acted first.

But Packer Report said both Bradley and Fangio are staying put, leaving Packers with MP. No source from Packer Report on where he got that timeframe.

Its hard to say, I bet the report from today that the Packers asked permission to talk to Bradley was just delayed. However, either Fangio or Bradley could have let the Packers know they were staying long before the public got word.

https://scout.com/nfl/packers/Article/Mike-McCarthy-Picks-Mike-Pettine-to-Fix-Green-Bay-Packers-Defense-113492012

[pbmax]

Greg Bedard, whose reporting was far superior to his punditry or offensive line coach predictions, has a great piece about how Pettine installs his defense in Cleveland, down to the thin playbook so that when the Patriots steal it, there won't be much revealed.

https://www.si.com/2014/06/19/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-coach

There are double quotes which are apparently an artifact of the article formerly being on MMQB and not being on SI's new platform.

[Bretsky]

I think Mike and the Pro Personnel guys were like Packer fans. Can we please sign a veteran corner even if they are terrible?

And how about one pricey free agent a year Ted?

Its hard to read the formerly current situation. They did that last year (it backfired of course) but I cannot read who talked Ted into it. It might just have been that he had an unusual number of holes on his roster compared to most years. He lost a Guard and TE he didn't think he would lose.

I don't mind Mike giving Guteus Maximus a shopping list, but take what you get and make it work.



I was listeing the Packer best guy again today, who really was convinced MM and TT were at odds in terms of free agency and vet players to occasionally bring in

He also noted how Eliott Wolf was in charge the NFL Draft Board, so to speak of available free agenty....and the best guys who weren't on teams after the season....etc....but his lists rarely got used

They feel its near set in stone Wolf is not coming back.

Noted how a couple years ago Detroit was very interested in Wolf as a GM but GB denied the interview

Then two years later they pass him over for a guy who, title wise is below him

It's time for Eliott Wolf to go elsewhere

[pbmax]

I get the passed over and I get the guy with the lesser title got the job and the hurt feelings.

But leaving doesn't provide him with more of an opportunity to prove himself. He would get to be uber personnel guy under Guteus Maximus including college scouting which is not his specialty. Oakland has McKenzie and his existing VPs plus the guys Gruden if bringing in. The Browns would be at best a lateral move and maybe if you turn it around you look like a genius.

I buy that Wolf set the pro personnel board up and Ted rarely looked at it more than once. He didn't trade much and his FA forays were when he had a lot of openings (or a gigantic hole) which mostly did not happen.


I was listeing the Packer best guy again today, who really was convinced MM and TT were at odds in terms of free agency and vet players to occasionally bring in

He also noted how Eliott Wolf was in charge the NFL Draft Board, so to speak of available free agenty....and the best guys who weren't on teams after the season....etc....but his lists rarely got used

They feel its near set in stone Wolf is not coming back.

Noted how a couple years ago Detroit was very interested in Wolf as a GM but GB denied the interview

Then two years later they pass him over for a guy who, title wise is below him

It's time for Eliott Wolf to go elsewhere

[Bretsky]

I think the Browns are It for Wolfie

I too don't see Oakland as having much upside to advance his career

[Tony Oday]

I might have a hard time letting this go. Be prepared for Murphy consultation jokes next year in Game Day threads the first time they are behind.

"I'm telling Mark on you ..."

But does Murphy report to AR?

[mmmdk]

I'm ok with Pettine. But why was he without a coaching job for 2 years? A year away is normal but does anyone have a story about this?

[Carolina_Packer]

I get the passed over and I get the guy with the lesser title got the job and the hurt feelings.

But leaving doesn't provide him with more of an opportunity to prove himself. He would get to be uber personnel guy under Guteus Maximus including college scouting which is not his specialty. Oakland has McKenzie and his existing VPs plus the guys Gruden if bringing in. The Browns would be at best a lateral move and maybe if you turn it around you look like a genius.

I buy that Wolf set the pro personnel board up and Ted rarely looked at it more than once. He didn't trade much and his FA forays were when he had a lot of openings (or a gigantic hole) which mostly did not happen.

I thought about the point you were making in your second paragraph. The only thing I could think is that is where ego and feelings come in. If he were to stay, there would be the constant reminder that BG was chosen over him, or he might disagree on decisions, but not want to cause problems. So, the change of scenery gets you away from that, even if the job you are moving on to isn't any more highly regarded.

The other reason to leave is to be a part of building something. Oakland is further along than Cleveland (duh) in their development as a franchise, but nobody has seen Oakland be a consistent power. If Wolf goes to one of those places and they become consistently good, then he is even more of a hot commodity as a GM candidate.

Also, John Dorsey and Reggie McKenzie are much older than BG, and closer to retirement, so Wolf's wait in those two places wouldn't be as long, provided neither or both teams remain/become a dumpster fire and everyone gets fired. That's the risk if you are Wolf. Stay with the established Packers, who are having a momentary changing of the guard, or go to two places that are trying to establish a winning culture.

[ThunderDan]

I thought about the point you were making in your second paragraph. The only thing I could think is that is where ego and feelings come in. If he were to stay, there would be the constant reminder that BG was chosen over him, or he might disagree on decisions, but not want to cause problems. So, the change of scenery gets you away from that, even if the job you are moving on to isn't any more highly regarded.

The other reason to leave is to be a part of building something. Oakland is further along than Cleveland (duh) in their development as a franchise, but nobody has seen Oakland be a consistent power. If Wolf goes to one of those places and they become consistently good, then he is even more of a hot commodity as a GM candidate.

Also, John Dorsey and Reggie McKenzie are much older than BG, and closer to retirement, so Wolf's wait in those two places wouldn't be as long, provided neither or both teams remain/become a dumpster fire and everyone gets fired. That's the risk if you are Wolf. Stay with the established Packers, who are having a momentary changing of the guard, or go to two places that are trying to establish a winning culture.

The real equalizer in all of this is that there are only 32 NFL teams. So there are only 32 GM spots and maybe 100 top other executive GM positions.

You can't be real picky when are opportunity to advance comes along. You either take it or you might have to wait another 3-4 years before you are looked at for a similar position.

[ThunderDan]

I like this hire. Pettine has run good defenses everywhere he has gone. Hopefully he can take the pieces in place add the additional players we pick up and create a functioning defense.

[denverYooper]

His 5 years as DC, his defenses finished in he top ten every year. That doesn't happen because you have 1 shutdown corner.

He's never had Aaron Rodgers on the other side of the ball for his teams either.

With a top 15 D that can rush the passer and get off of the field on 3rd down and Rodgers healthy, the Packers will win 11 games.

[denverYooper]

I like this hire. Pettine has run good defenses everywhere he has gone. Hopefully he can take the pieces in place add the additional players we pick up and create a functioning defense.

One of they key pieces of information in one of the articles (I think it was Bedard's) was that Pettine has been good at tailoring his scheme to the players he has. That was part of the general player acquisition/scheme mismatch we've mulled over many times here on the defense. Now they've updated both!

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'm ok with Pettine. But why was he without a coaching job for 2 years? A year away is normal but does anyone have a story about this?

After he was fired, he decided that he was going to take a year off and not just jump into a new job. He took the firing a bit personal so just stepped back from the NFL. He was interviewed for the DC position in Washington before this season and when he didn't get that job he was a defensive consultant to the Seattle Seahawks.

Interesting article from NFL.com about coaches who get fired and what they do: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000765116/article/sabbatical-year-how-fired-coaches-spend-time-away-from-game

[pbmax]

But does Murphy report to AR?

They all do until he signs the next contract.

[pbmax]

I'm ok with Pettine. But why was he without a coaching job for 2 years? A year away is normal but does anyone have a story about this?

I definitely remember he was taking a year off at the time of firing. Did not want to jump back in. But this is what he did last year:


Pettine, who spent the 2017 season in a consulting role with the Seattle Seahawks

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Bolt/Report-Mike-Pettine-to-interview-for-Green-Bay-Packers-Defensive-Coordinator-job-113413528

https://twitter.com/mlombardiNFL/status/931922862759297024

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm guardedly optimistic about the choice of Pettine. Like Leonhard, he's apparently a disciple of Ryan, and Leonhard has shown a lot of creativity - roughly similar to Capers.

I suppose it's arguable that Pettine had good talent to work with those other places - which obviously he won't - for a while anyway - with the Packers.

We'll just have to see. He probably will get a "honeymoon" from criticism for a while, at least, given the weird irrational hate of Capers that was so prevalent in here.

[Tony Oday]

They all do until he signs the next contract.

:rs:

[pbmax]

Kornélios Taylor @iKornelios
#Packers fans can’t complain about scheme this year under Mike Pettine. Every single fan gets what they wanted on defense schematically. We’ll see a 4-3 Under, Base 3-4, and a combination on Nickel of a 4-3 Nickel (4-2-5) + 3-4 Nickel (2-4-5), we’ll see Dime more than ever.

https://twitter.com/iKornelios

Seems like a decent follow. He has a bunch of candidates for Packer draft picks in first round too. Anyone know his reputation? any good at this?

[pbmax]

More Pettine's defense, this one about how his Buffalo defense would translate to Cleveland. His results in Cleveland on D were very mixes to poor. Top 10 in points first year, but second year point and both years' yardage were bottom third I believe.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2014/2/20/5428416/mike-pettines-2013-buffalo-bills-defense

[KYPack]

Pettine is a meat and potatoes guy. Plays some basic covers, but mixes things up. I seem to remember him coaching from the sideline. I think a DC has to be down there to get a feel of the guys. He's a hard nosed regular ol football coach.

[Rutnstrut]

IMO this is a good hire and will show even more how Capers should have been let go years ago.

[pbmax]

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Pettine defense's have been successful but they're pressure-based and they use both 3-4 and 4-3 concepts. Lots of flexibility to do numerous things, which means players have to be flexible and football smart. However, in '17 he has been with Pete Carroll, whose D is much simpler.

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Source familiar with Pettine's scheme said "smarts will be a major factor when selecting players." GM Brian Gutekunst and McCarthy will have to be on the same page about what kind of player is needed to succeed in that defense.


KY might very well be correct in that the coverages are simpler, but the fronts are ever changing. That means the LBs, especially inside guys, will need to step it up. Probably true of safeties.

Good thing about Seattle experience is that he might have a simplified base he can use effectively in multiple situations. So they always have a safe space. You then can add complexity to it as they progress. Even before Seattle he talked about how players let you know when they had stopped absorbing new things.

[pbmax]

IMO this is a good hire and will show even more how Capers should have been let go years ago.

He is going to need pass rush talent though or pressure stuff won't work. He is Ryan disciple and like Capers, they want pressure on QB and safe coverages behind it.

[pbmax]

https://www.si.com/2014/06/19/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-coach


“It's your job as a coach to keep throwing stuff at them and at some point, you'll get feedback,” Pettine says. “But you're going to have teams, like the 2006 Ravens defense, that had almost like an infinite sponge. We could have 60 calls up on game day, it doesn't matter. Those guys Ed [Reed], Ray [Lewis], Adalius [Thomas], Jarret Johnson—those guys could handle anything you threw at them. If your team's cumulative sponge isn't big, then you might have to back it off a little bit. I think sponge-wise, we're pretty smart. We already have some advanced stuff very quickly. But there's some coaches that each year, teach, This what we run and that's it. They don't ask more of their guys. To me that's coaching. If your guys can do more and you’re not doing more, that's on you. Or if this is your norm and you have a pretty good team and they're just not mentally there, then [expletive] pare it back a little bit.”

So he is aware of the challenge. Lets hope Seattle taught him how to deal with it when the sponge is small.

[pbmax]

His personal background: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/08/ny_jets_defensive_coordinator.html

3-4 Hybrid scheme in NY with Jets: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/sports/football/19jets.html

[mission]

Want to feel great about this hire and how he "simplifies" things for his guys?
This is regarding his hire in Cleveland but about half way down he goes very indepth into his scheme teaching philosophies. Real smart guy from what I can tell.

https://www.si.com/2014/06/19/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-coach

EDIT - sorry I see it was posted above :)

[Cheesehead Craig]

https://www.si.com/2014/06/19/mike-pettine-cleveland-browns-coach


So he is aware of the challenge. Lets hope Seattle taught him how to deal with it when the sponge is small.

http://i.pinimg.com/736x/0f/45/43/0f45435ef6c2031ee1372707500fb6c0.jpg

[pbmax]

Tramontana chimes in:


“He does some things that teams just don’t expect,” Williams said of Pettine’s pass defense. “A lot of different coverages. He doesn’t stick with one thing. He keeps things going. He’s not going to call one play or one defense all game long. He’s going to keep switching up things and keep teams off-balance. At the end of the day, the players have to make plays. Everywhere I’ve been, we’ve always had pretty good corners. That’s one of the things that you do have to have in that defense. You do have to have some good corners in that defense. It’ll be successful.”

https://scout.com/nfl/packers/Article/Tramon-Williams-Skys-the-Limit-for-Green-Bay-Packers-Defense-Under-Mike-Pettine-113508614

[KYPack]

I don't know if Pettine is the founder of the D but I like Buffalo's base. They play a straight 4-3, but with Buffalo, that Jerry Hughes is is a great hand at that DE/OLB position. He plays like a DE on some snaps and OLB on others. This could be Nick Perry's natural position. Nick is a tweener guy. That type of scheme could play right into his strengths.

In a vanilla 4-3, you have to get your pass rush heat from DE's. Those kind of guys are hard to get.

A combo set-up could be installed here without shaking up our roster as much.

[Carolina_Packer]

I'm guardedly optimistic about the choice of Pettine. Like Leonhard, he's apparently a disciple of Ryan, and Leonhard has shown a lot of creativity - roughly similar to Capers.

I suppose it's arguable that Pettine had good talent to work with those other places - which obviously he won't - for a while anyway - with the Packers.

We'll just have to see. He probably will get a "honeymoon" from criticism for a while, at least, given the weird irrational hate of Capers that was so prevalent in here.

For me, it's never anything personal. I think at some point, the team had to make the change anyway because the results were not there, no matter how much blame he deserves, or the players he had to coach. Of course the team knew who was picking the players and did something about it.

[3irty1]

I was hoping for Fangio but we could certainly do worse than Pettine.

Some of those defenses he coached always seemed disproportionately good for how pedestrian their pass rush was. That's pretty good for us I guess. The league moves fast so I hope he's kept up with the trends.

It bothered me with Capers seeing 11 decent individual efforts that didn't play like a sum of their parts. In the past there have been obvious personnel issues where guys are obvious liabilities (Peprah, Brad Jones, Bush, etc.). These days it seems like the defense can break down without anyone playing particularly poorly. This is somewhat confirmed when our cast offs go on to reach at new heights of success on other NFL teams.

[Pugger]

We all were hoping Mike would look outside the organization for our next DC so we have to be happy about that...

[Tony Oday]

I think you will see a lot of pressure with the guys we have on the roster. Our blitzes seemed stale, seemed like the Offense could see Nitro Blitzes three plays before they were called and the like. I would LOVE to see King healthy for a year and sign an elite CB in the off season. I really do not think that this team is that far off on D.

[Smidgeon]

We all were hoping Mike would look outside the organization for our next DC so we have to be happy about that...

Without it being an indictment on Gute, it appears M3 had a more thorough search for a DC than Murphy did for a GM. Murphy looked at the Wolf/TT tree after checking off the Rooney box. M3 just hired a DC he has never worked with before.

[denverYooper]

Does Pettine become M4?

[pbmax]

Does Pettine become M4?

Oh, that's a good question. I don't think you can offer the DC an honorific that applies just to head coaches of the GBP.

How about MDC?

It does setup a tantalizing succession plan though.

[pbmax]

Without it being an indictment on Gute, it appears M3 had a more thorough search for a DC than Murphy did for a GM. Murphy looked at the Wolf/TT tree after checking off the Rooney box. M3 just hired a DC he has never worked with before.

And I think the Rooney tree was tokenism at its worst. Another mark against Not Bob Harlan.

[denverYooper]

And I think the Rooney tree was tokenism at its worst. Another mark against Not Bob Harlan.

I'm a little surprised you haven't started the Fire Mark Murphy! thread yet.

[pbmax]

I'm a little surprised you haven't started the Fire Mark Murphy! thread yet.

I am hoping he is more dullard than authoritarian and doesn't really do much with his newfound position. The PC with Guteus Maximus was a testament to having it both ways.

Murphy said he was more involved in the football side of things in the last couple of years but was still unaware there were communication and collaboration problems. If Mike Florio can detect them from West Virginia but you cannot in your own building while spending time on that side of the business, you are not very aware.

I think even McGinn launched a column with McCarthy's impatience with Thompson last year.

And that baseline could mean he wants them to talk or he might decide he needs to decide. If he starts deciding, then the thread is a go.

Actually, I'd be stunned if we don't have an fire Murphy thread somewhere on standby.

[mraynrand]

Pettine = "Sponge Bob"

[mission]

Rex Ryan on Pettine hire:
http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/43369/rex-ryan-on-packers-new-defensive-boss-mike-pettine-hell-be-best-coordinator-in-league


“He’s the smartest guy in the room,” Ryan said.

“That record he has in Cleveland looks pretty good now,” Ryan said. “The guy there is going to have to coach 10 years to get that many wins.”

“He’ll be the best coordinator in the league; that’s how good he is,” Ryan said. “I think the big thing is, the fan base ought to be super excited about him because this is a good get. There’s other names out there or whatever, but this is the best coach out there that they could’ve got."

“This guy is going to give you the gamut. We have a philosophy, and Mike has it, it’s a 'KILL' philosophy -- keep it likable and learnable -- and that’s what we do, and that team is going to play fast and play physical, and I can’t wait to watch them.”

Ryan rejected the idea that it’s too complicated for a young defense, which the Packers often field.

“That’s not true, not at all,” he said. “You’ve just got to be smart in a way that if you love football, then you’ll love playing in this defense. If not, you really shouldn’t be in the league. If you don’t want to play in this system, you don’t want to play in any system.

“It will make good players great. If you’re an average player, you’ll be good. There’s times when Mike and I were together, we literally had no NFL corners, and yet we found a way to make it work. And I think there’s times when we’ve had great players and we’ve had historic success. If you love the game, then these guys died and went to heaven in this system.”

[esoxx]

I am hoping he is more dullard than authoritarian and doesn't really do much with his newfound position. The PC with Guteus Maximus was a testament to having it both ways.

Murphy said he was more involved in the football side of things in the last couple of years but was still unaware there were communication and collaboration problems. If Mike Florio can detect them from West Virginia but you cannot in your own building while spending time on that side of the business, you are not very aware.

I think even McGinn launched a column with McCarthy's impatience with Thompson last year.

And that baseline could mean he wants them to talk or he might decide he needs to decide. If he starts deciding, then the thread is a go.

Actually, I'd be stunned if we don't have an fire Murphy thread somewhere on standby.

^^^I think the Mark Murphy is as useless as a hind TIT thread should suffice.

[pbmax]

^^^I think the Mark Murphy is as useless as a hind TIT thread should suffice.

I have to hand it to Vincenzo, we have gotten a lot of run out of it. Though its title is not in the classic form. Maybe we can adopt a reformed thread title cannon.

Meanwhile, Rex has me all fired up for Pettine.

[Joemailman]

Rex Ryan thinks Pettine is the best think since sliced bread or something.

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/10/rex-ryan-couldnt-be-more-excited-about-packers-hiring-mike-pettine/


“He’ll be the best coordinator in the league; that’s how good he is,” Ryan said, according to Rob Demovsky of ESPN. “I think the big thing is, the fan base ought to be super excited about him because this is a good get. There’s other names out there or whatever, but this is the best coach out there that they could’ve got.”

[Joemailman]

More Rex:

http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/43369/rex-ryan-on-packers-new-defensive-boss-mike-pettine-hell-be-best-coordinator-in-league


Rex Ryan thought Mike Pettine was just a video guy, someone who could help him put together film that would keep his Baltimore Ravens players interested and focused on the game plans.

That was 16 years ago, when Ryan was the Ravens' defensive line coach and Pettine worked in the team’s video department.

He quickly discovered that Pettine was much, much more.

“He’s the smartest guy in the room,” Ryan said.
And that comes without a caveat, Ryan said. It doesn’t matter who’s in the room.

“I was trying to spice up my presentations, and the more I talked to him, I realized, ‘Holy cow, this dude knows everything, he’s a real football guy,’” Ryan, now an ESPN analyst, said in an interview Wednesday – one day after the Packers hired Pettine as their new defensive coordinator.

“So when we had the chance, we made him quality control coach, and then outside linebackers and then defensive coordinator. He was my right-hand man forever.”

[Joemailman]

It's been a few years since Pettine was a DC. Any idea how he views the trend of using a small LB/safety at the ILB position. Did Jets have big ILB's when he was DC there?

[pbmax]

Wow, some of these numbers, especially scoring are not fantastic.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/packers-jim-leonhard-knows-firsthand-how-good-a-mike-pettine/article_94aea7f3-c720-5727-8205-95b73ffa2363.html


When Ryan became the Jets’ head coach in 2009, he brought Pettine with him, and Pettine spent four years in charge of the Jets defense, which finished No. 1 in the NFL in scoring defense (14.8 points per game) and total defense (252.3 yards per game) in 2009; sixth (19.0) and third (291.5) in 2010; 20th (22.7) and fifth (312.1) in 2011; and 20th (23.4) and eighth (323.4) in 2012.

When Ryan overhauled his staff after the 2012 season, Pettine went to Buffalo, where the Bills finished 2013 ranked 20th in scoring defense (24.3) and 10th in total defense (333.4).

Let's chart this:

Year Scoring Yards FOrnk
2009 1 1 1 (GB was #2)
2010 6 3 5 (GB was #2 again)
2011 20 5 2 (GB was 25th)
2012 20 8 9 (GB was 8th)
2013bb 20 10 4 (GB was 31st)


Football Outsiders has those defenses that got scored on as performing pretty well from an efficiency standpoint, down by down. Don't remember that team well, but was that the game that just shut Rodgers down in Buffalo?

[Joemailman]

Wow, some of these numbers, especially scoring are not fantastic.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/packers-jim-leonhard-knows-firsthand-how-good-a-mike-pettine/article_94aea7f3-c720-5727-8205-95b73ffa2363.html



Let's chart this:

Year Scoring Yards FOrnk
2009 1 1 1 (GB was #2)
2010 6 3 5 (GB was #2 again)
2011 20 5 2 (GB was 25th)
2012 20 8 9 (GB was 8th)
2013bb 20 10 4 (GB was 31st)


Football Outsiders has those defenses that got scored on as performing pretty well from an efficiency standpoint, down by down. Don't remember that team well, but was that the game that just shut Rodgers down in Buffalo?

When a defense is 5th in yards allowed and 20th in points allowed (2011), the offense usually has something to do with it. I looked it up. Jets offense was 25th, and Jets turned the ball over 34 times. Sanchez was intercepted 18 times, and they lost 16 fumbles.

[mraynrand]

When a defense is 5th in yards allowed and 20th in points allowed (2011), the offense usually has something to do with it. I looked it up. Jets offense was 25th, and Jets turned the ball over 34 times. Sanchez was intercepted 18 times, and they lost 16 fumbles.

Was that the year an O lineman's ass caused a Sanchez fumble, returned for a TD by NE?

[Joemailman]

Was that the year an O lineman's ass caused a Sanchez fumble, returned for a TD by NE?

The legendary butt fumble occurred on Thanksgiving Day the following year.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82RIfy-gRa4

[Joemailman]

Pettine was the DC when the Packers beat the Jets 9-0 in 2010. Rodgers was 15-34 for 170 yards.

[wist43]

To me one of the most critical stats is punts forced... Green Bay was 27th in forced punts. In other words, "3 and out" was not in the game plan.

We were 22nd in yds allowed (Minnesota #1) and 26th in pts...

Dom should have been fired years ago.

I'm encouraged by the Pettine hiring... no more abandoning the middle of the field - and holy fuck I hope we never see a 2-4 again!!! lol...

[mission]

Pettine was the DC when the Packers beat the Jets 9-0 in 2010. Rodgers was 15-34 for 170 yards.

Say no more fam.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/01/mike_pettines_career_gamble_to.html

How Mike Pettine's career gamble transformed him from a high school coach into coach of the Cleveland Browns

Updated on January 26, 2014 at 7:42 AM Posted on January 25, 2014 at 3:20 PM

BEREA, Ohio – " ...Twelve years ago, Baltimore Ravens coach Brian Billick sat in a room with Mike Pettine and begged him not to take the entry-level position he was offering.

Why would a successful high school football coach in his 30s with a wife and small kids leave the security of a good teaching job in suburban Philadelphia to work in the Ravens’ video-operations department?..."

Please click on the LINK above for this excellent story and The Green Bay Packers new DC Mike Pettine.

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

To me one of the most critical stats is punts forced... Green Bay was 27th in forced punts. In other words, "3 and out" was not in the game plan.

We were 22nd in yds allowed (Minnesota #1) and 26th in pts...

Dom should have been fired years ago.

I'm encouraged by the Pettine hiring... no more abandoning the middle of the field - and holy fuck I hope we never see a 2-4 again!!! lol...

Over the TOP too much, ' blind as (Blank) ':

https://co0069yjui-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Flying-bats-1-300x200.jpg

[woodbuck27]

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/_/id/1280/morning-kickoff-mike-pettines-biggest-regrets-were-the-browns-top-two-picks-of-the-2014-draft

Morning kickoff: Pettine's biggest regrets were Browns' top two picks of 2014 draft

Apr 27, 2016 .......Tony Grossi ........ESPN Cleveland

[woodbuck27]

More Rex:

http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/43369/rex-ryan-on-packers-new-defensive-boss-mike-pettine-hell-be-best-coordinator-in-league

Finally, something we can look forward to..... Brains and Coaching in Green Bay. :clap:

[woodbuck27]

I'm a little surprised you haven't started the Fire Mark Murphy! thread yet.


https://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700003050903/0305009333-l.jpg

Murphy and McCarty out with the Wash Water? Are they tied at the hip?

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2018/01/10/dougherty-can-mike-pettine-succeed-answers-simple/1021107001/

Dougherty: Can Mike Pettine succeed? Answer's simple

Pete Dougherty, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin

Published 6:07 p.m. CT Jan. 10, 2018 | Updated 6:25 p.m. CT Jan. 10, 2018

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/10/podcast-draft-alone-wont-fix-packers-defense/1022846001/

Podcast: Draft alone won't fix Packers' defense

Packers News Published 5:54 p.m. CT Jan. 10, 2018 | Updated 5:54 p.m. CT Jan. 10, 2018

[Vincenzo]

I have to hand it to Vincenzo, we have gotten a lot of run out of it. Though its title is not in the classic form. Maybe we can adopt a reformed thread title cannon.

Meanwhile, Rex has me all fired up for Pettine.
As a rookie I'm good with that, pbmax. And I guess the hind tit will just have to do. :glug:

[run pMc]

To me one of the most critical stats is punts forced... Green Bay was 27th in forced punts. In other words, "3 and out" was not in the game plan...

I actually agree with wist on this one - 3rd down efficiency is pretty important. I'd also put Quarterback passer rating allowed up there, along with points allowed as among the most important defensive metrics.
GB has let pedestrian QB's have QB ratings over 100 too often lately...
Forcing more punts gives ARod more chances to work his magic, and less points given up by the D is an obvious part of the game.

[Fritz]

I too agree with Wist that the three-and-out was the rarest of rare occurrences with DC's defenses.

My own sense of Poutine is that we'll see instant and significant improvement in that defense, whether or not Guttykut drafts an OLB in the first round. Sorry, Tex. Too many years of guys in the back end throwing their hands up in confusion and frustration after some pedestrian wide receiver ends up catching the ball thirty yards downfield, no Packer defender within ten yards of him.

[3irty1]

The more I marinate on Pettine, the more I wish we would have poached Fangio.

Fangio has really never put a bad defense on the field. Very impressive. When Pettine's defenses fell apart, they did so in Capers fashion. They were called complicated, lacking adjustment, and poorly tailored to the talent on the field. The league trends are to be simpler with an emphasis on reliably putting a hat-on-a-hat as Seattle assistants spread through the league. We seem to be going against the grain.

[pbmax]

The more I marinate on Pettine, the more I wish we would have poached Fangio.

Fangio has really never put a bad defense on the field. Very impressive. When Pettine's defenses fell apart, they did so in Capers fashion. They were called complicated, lacking adjustment, and poorly tailored to the talent on the field. The league trends are to be simpler with an emphasis on reliably putting a hat-on-a-hat as Seattle assistants spread through the league. We seem to be going against the grain.

That's my fear too. He had some fearsome talent on the front end (especially in Buffalo) for pass rush and that Jets D was loaded.

He still produced some middling results although being that low for yardage and high for scoring does mean the team had some self inflicted wounds.

I hope he picked up a few things in Seattle. His Cleveland D was pretty bad.

[arcilite]

The more I marinate on Pettine, the more I wish we would have poached Fangio.

Fangio has really never put a bad defense on the field. Very impressive. When Pettine's defenses fell apart, they did so in Capers fashion. They were called complicated, lacking adjustment, and poorly tailored to the talent on the field. The league trends are to be simpler with an emphasis on reliably putting a hat-on-a-hat as Seattle assistants spread through the league. We seem to be going against the grain.

Copied from somewhere else but Fangio has had bad defenses.

By his fourth and final year in Carolina as DC, his defense was 30th in the league in yards and 27th in points.

By his third and final year in Indy as DC, his defense was 29th in the league in yards and 31st in points.

By his fourth and final year in Houston as DC, his defense was 31st in yards and 32nd in points.

His only true outstanding years as a DC were with the 49ers, but look at the talent he had on those teams - he had Justin Smith, an at-worst Hall of Very Gooder, anchoring the defensive line, and then four!!! All-Pro LBs.

[beveaux1]

Looks like there’s a pattern. Players not schemes. The best schemes are done in by pedestrian players.

[pbmax]

Looks like there’s a pattern. Players not schemes. The best schemes are done in by pedestrian players.

Always true. But Fangio has explicitly modified his scheme to adapt to younger players and simplicity. Pettine has worked with a lot of good vets.

[Bretsky]

Always true. But Fangio has explicitly modified his scheme to adapt to younger players and simplicity. Pettine has worked with a lot of good vets.

My order of preference would have been

Fangio
Bradley
Pettine


But Wist gave his blessing, and if it gets him to shut up our DC I'm game.....hahaha


All 3 IMO were clearly better than hiring from within

[woodbuck27]

As a rookie I'm good with that, pbmax. And I guess the hind tit will just have to do. :glug:

Writing the word tit will lure Patler back Pronto. :-)

We all know now that he's just not a football expert.

[Joemailman]

A lot of people have questioned whether Clay Matthews is worth keeping around at his salary. A case for keeping him with Pettine coming in.

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/11/why-packers-should-keep-clay-matthews-in-2018/


Pettine likes to play multiple fronts, with disguised blitzes and coverages. It’s a scheme that could help revitalize Matthews’ ability to disrupt, possibly even as a pass-rusher.

Former NFL safety Jim Leonhard recently described Pettine’s defense as flexible and creative. That sounds exactly like what Matthews needs. He needs a playcaller capable of finding the right matchups and creating the right situations for playmakers to take advantage. The days of Matthews lining up every down on the edge and beating left and right tackles all afternoon are gone. Get him moving around and good things happen. Pettine will find ways. It’ll be one of his top priorities.

Ideally, the Packers would love for Pettine to find Matthews the perfect new role and inject some life into his game, all while grooming a young rookie – presumably a top pick – to be the defense’s next true difference maker.

Clearing a big chunk of cap space is a tempting scenario, but the Packers will be better off in 2018 with Matthews on the roster.

[mraynrand]

Maybe Petite can revive the "W" position for Matthews. Maybe. But the above reminds me that Jim Leonhard learned at the feet of the master.

[pbmax]

A lot of people have questioned whether Clay Matthews is worth keeping around at his salary. A case for keeping him with Pettine coming in.

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/11/why-packers-should-keep-clay-matthews-in-2018/


The days of Matthews lining up every down on the edge and beating left and right tackles all afternoon are gone. Get him moving around and good things happen. Pettine will find ways. It’ll be one of his top priorities.

He has been doing this for a while. He has spent a good deal of time at ILB on run downs in nickel and rushing from the interior on pass downs.

There are many ways to do this but I don't think, other than surprise until its on film, will this revitalize his career. The problem is that unless Perry is healthy, CMIII is still their best playmaker in the front seven. And best pass rusher.

[Joemailman]

He has been doing this for a while. He has spent a good deal of time at ILB on run downs in nickel and rushing from the interior on pass downs.

There are many ways to do this but I don't think, other than surprise until its on film, will this revitalize his career. The problem is that unless Perry is healthy, CMIII is still their best playmaker in the front seven. And best pass rusher.

One of Pettine's strengths is supposed to be using multiple fronts and disguising coverages. I had the sense this past year that the Packers under Capers were doing a poor job of disguising things. Seemed like teams kind of knew what was coming. An example was the devastating effectiveness of screen passes against the Packers defense. Screen passes should only work that well against certain defensive calls.

[pbmax]

One of Pettine's strengths is supposed to be using multiple fronts and disguising coverages. I had the sense this past year that the Packers under Capers were doing a poor job of disguising things. Seemed like teams kind of knew what was coming. An example was the devastating effectiveness of screen passes against the Packers defense. Screen passes should only work that well against certain defensive calls.

Screen passes work well against blitzes and man coverage with deep safeties.

It also helps if one box safety is banged up (Burnett) and the other is a rookie (jones).

[gbgary]

swapping one complex system for another...
https://m.popkey.co/107488/OwVql_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=funny_or_die&i=funny-or-die-ent&l=search&f=.gif


pre free-agency/draft prediction for 2018... ummmm...8-8

[texaspackerbacker]

Swapping one complex system for another is about the best we can hope for. Pettine sounds like he's a lot like Capers. That's exactly what maximizes any defense, and it's exactly what a team with mediocre personnel needs to present an adequate NFL defense.

[3irty1]

Swapping one complex system for another is about the best we can hope for. Pettine sounds like he's a lot like Capers. That's exactly what maximizes any defense, and it's exactly what a team with mediocre personnel needs to present an adequate NFL defense.

Doesn't it concern you that everywhere Capers has ever coached his defenses have had a steady downward trajectory? Dom's only success has been as a reboot artist. The JJ Abrams of defense.

Tell me what you think of this theory. What if Capers is a mad scientist when it comes to X's and O's and a genius at innovating new defenses out of leftovers, but terrible at projecting talent into his schemes. Dom lands in a place with players from the last regime, builds a winner immediately, then gets worse and worse the longer his influence exists. What if Ted is giving him everything he's asking for but he was asking for the wrong things? This could explain why guys like Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde immediately turn to studs when they leave Dom. Contrast this with McCarthy who seems to have a very good sense of what matters most to him at each position and overall did a great job working in harmony with Ted to get those players. Its clear that the coaches are a big part of the scouting process by the insights they share in the post draft interviews they give.

Pettine hasn't been anywhere long enough to gauge whether or not his defenses reliably trend downward but fingers crossed.

[mraynrand]

Couple of problems with your Capers assessment 31. It's just as easy to say that he did well when Thompson brought in talented experience. Did well with Woodson and Pickett right off the bat and last good year was 2012. Revived when brought in Peppers and had experienced groups in 2014 and 2015.

Hayward was good right off the bat with 6 INTs in 2012 and 3 INTs in 2014 - you can't say Capers wasn't capable of getting a lot out of him. Injuries, not Capers ended his stay in GB

Same With Hyde. But Hyde still is more limited - recall the dropped game winner against SF.

Capers was an above average DC who needed talented and mostly experienced groups, but he did well with teachable youth so long as a structure was there. I think he was ranked 7 and 2 in his first two seasons because the talent was there - Wood, Pickett, #1 picks Clay and Raji and a total gems Williams, Shields, and Collins in 2010 made him look great. Losing Collins killed him for two years and losing Shields killed him last year. I think he was pretty much a top 1/3 DC. Not great, but good.

[3irty1]

Couple of problems with your Capers assessment 31. It's just as easy to say that he did well when Thompson brought in talented experience. Did well with Woodson and Pickett right off the bat and last good year was 2012. Revived when brought in Peppers and had experienced groups in 2014 and 2015.

Hayward was good right off the bat with 6 INTs in 2012 and 3 INTs in 2014 - you can't say Capers wasn't capable of getting a lot out of him. Injuries, not Capers ended his stay in GB

Same With Hyde. But Hyde still is more limited - recall the dropped game winner against SF.

Capers was an above average DC who needed talented and mostly experienced groups, but he did well with teachable youth so long as a structure was there. I think he was ranked 7 and 2 in his first two seasons because the talent was there - Wood, Pickett, #1 picks Clay and Raji and a total gems Williams, Shields, and Collins in 2010 made him look great. Losing Collins killed him for two years and losing Shields killed him last year. I think he was pretty much a top 1/3 DC. Not great, but good.

The fact remains that Dom was still a reboot artist elsewhere. And coming in as a new DC is not exactly a stacked deck. You're walking into a situation that got the last DC fired albeit probably aided by a high draft class. I think the "Dom's defenses need experience" idea is a bit overplayed. At some point if your scheme needs experience from people who've been playing football their whole lives its just a bad scheme. Plus Matthews and Shields came online and weren't even experienced by college standards and were immediate playmakers. Injuries are obviously central to the story of the Capers Packers. I can't think of a theory for why Capers defenses are more injury prone but I can theorize why his offseason input could make for a steady decline no matter where he coached. Also is there at all an equivalent to the TT/MM offensive lineman or WR? Even we as fans know the prototype there and they hit with near certainty even as midround picks. That's a type of talent that MM wants, TT could reliably find, and MM's staff could reliably coach into a solid NFL starter. We don't really seem to have anything like that on defense.

[mraynrand]

The fact remains that Dom was still a reboot artist elsewhere.

maybe he was just a better DC than what they had


And coming in as a new DC is not exactly a stacked deck. You're walking into a situation that got the last DC fired albeit probably aided by a high draft class.

OK. So Dom is better than the last guy and properly used Clay and Raji right away. He's a good coach


I think the "Dom's defenses need experience" idea is a bit overplayed.

So do I. That's why i said I thought he did well with youth if a structure is there. Maybe when Shields got hurt and Raji quit, the better solution was solid FA leadership though, rather than rely heavily on development of rookies.

At some point if your scheme needs experience from people who've been playing football their whole lives its just a bad scheme.
Not whole lives, just more than a couple of seasons maybe.

I can theorize why his offseason input could make for a steady decline no matter where he coached.
I disagree on the steady decline assessment. Dom was 7,2, gap 11 gap 12, 13 ranked. I see a guy mostly hovering around top 1/3.

Also is there at all an equivalent to the TT/MM offensive lineman or WR? Even we as fans know the prototype there and they hit with near certainty even as midround picks. That's a type of talent that MM wants, TT could reliably find, and MM's staff could reliably coach into a solid NFL starter. We don't really seem to have anything like that on defense.

I dunno, I see reasonable starters all over the defense: , Perry, Shields, Williams, Martinez. I guess I don't see the mid round guy who turned into a All pro studs, but Burnett Daniels and Hyde seemed like capable mid-rounders. Maybe not enough of them.

[call_me_ishmael]

Really good posts in here in the past couple pages. I still have mixed feelings on Pettine but I will choose to be optimistic and hopeful. Maybe it's a reflection of myself but I expect a better product on the field if only from hearing a different voice for a year.

The philosophy that I mostly closely align with personally is erroring towards a simpler scheme and maybe losing out to superior talent. I would rather my players play as fast as possible and to their greatest extent, even if it means they get beat by better players.

[Joemailman]

Really good posts in here in the past couple pages. I still have mixed feelings on Pettine but I will choose to be optimistic and hopeful. Maybe it's a reflection of myself but I expect a better product on the field if only from hearing a different voice for a year.

The philosophy that I mostly closely align with personally is erroring towards a simpler scheme and maybe losing out to superior talent. I would rather my players play as fast as possible and to their greatest extent, even if it means they get beat by better players.

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/11/creativity-multiplicity-and-attitude-should-propel-mike-pettines-packers-defense/

According to Bedard, Pettine believes in what he calls the “sponge theory,” a philosophy based on feeding the players more and more content until you get “feedback,” meaning the players have been saturated with as many calls and adjustments possible before it affects communication, aggressiveness and – most importantly – execution.

In Silverstein’s report, Pettine allegedly has simplified his system based on his time with the Seahawks, a team who’s notorious for its simple Cover 3 system.

[3irty1]

The fact remains that Dom was still a reboot artist elsewhere.

maybe he was just a better DC than what they had


And coming in as a new DC is not exactly a stacked deck. You're walking into a situation that got the last DC fired albeit probably aided by a high draft class.

OK. So Dom is better than the last guy and properly used Clay and Raji right away. He's a good coach


I think the "Dom's defenses need experience" idea is a bit overplayed.

So do I. That's why i said I thought he did well with youth if a structure is there. Maybe when Shields got hurt and Raji quit, the better solution was solid FA leadership though, rather than rely heavily on development of rookies.

At some point if your scheme needs experience from people who've been playing football their whole lives its just a bad scheme.
Not whole lives, just more than a couple of seasons maybe.

I can theorize why his offseason input could make for a steady decline no matter where he coached.
I disagree on the steady decline assessment. Dom was 7,2, gap 11 gap 12, 13 ranked. I see a guy mostly hovering around top 1/3.

Also is there at all an equivalent to the TT/MM offensive lineman or WR? Even we as fans know the prototype there and they hit with near certainty even as midround picks. That's a type of talent that MM wants, TT could reliably find, and MM's staff could reliably coach into a solid NFL starter. We don't really seem to have anything like that on defense.

I dunno, I see reasonable starters all over the defense: , Perry, Shields, Williams, Martinez. I guess I don't see the mid round guy who turned into a All pro studs, but Burnett Daniels and Hyde seemed like capable mid-rounders. Maybe not enough of them.

You're right that guys like Hayward, Hyde, and even Peppers or Walden aren't good evidence of the theory I put forth. If Dom can use his guys well he can use them well no matter where they came from. And I don't think the problem is Dom's scheme. I've never really bought the media narrative that learning it is akin to a graduate degree. NFL rookies have played football their whole lives and I think Dom's scheme is probably fine for them. I'm still theorizing though because the defense does seem worse than the sum of its parts and the parts break too much.

Theory #2: On the Athlete:Football Player continuum that exists when making tradeoffs outside the top 10, Ted is on the Al Davis end. Especially on defense this is true. Rarely did Ted spend resources on guys without elite measurables. When he did it was because they were simply too good of football players to ignore where the market placed them (Haha, Hayward, and Bishop come to mind). Because of this the Packers have a disproportionate amount of powerful freaks that more often exceed the structural limits of the human body. We draft athletes whose body's pull themselves apart leading to a disproportionate amount of tendon and hamstring injuries.

Theory #3: The Star theory of team building. For whatever reason a defense with 3 HOFers and the rest suspect starters is a consistently better unit than a defense with 0 or 1 HOFers otherwise staffed by quality starters. The opposite of this theory might be that you're only as good as your weakest link. The Packers lost all their top defenders even while plugging some pretty bad holes with some pretty good players. The overall talent might be the same or higher than ever but football doesn't care. It takes stars to move the needle and jags are jags. I shouldn't expect a defense with talent distributed like ours to perform like a sum of its parts.

[mraynrand]

I'll take Theory #3, for $600 Alex. Star players or difference makers. Woodson, Collins, Matthews, Peppers, Shields. All replaced by decent guys but not by guys who can, with some consistency, make big plays and change games.

[pbmax]

Theory #4: Interference.

Not the kind from nincompoop Snyder and his cronies, but the kind the head coach or GM could introduce by mandating an approach. And one of the things M3 and Dom agreed they could not have were big plays in the passing game against the Defense. Dom was free to experiment but he couldn't allow quick scores via the pass. McCarthy pushed the nickel starting in 2010 and even more in 2011. He is a big believer in matchups and personnel groups.

Dom had featured leaky defenses that played better as the year went on until this year (in 2016 in went from good to train wreck to kinda pathetic due to injuries). I take that as a sign that the coach and the players need a long lead time to settle in for whatever reason (unstated above is the chance the assistant coaches were not working well together).

This year it started OK then got worse quickly. When they started hemorrhaging big plays, Dom sent Dix 25 yards deep and apparently threatened to harm his family if he got closer to the sticks. That was to stop big plays. But it so limited the coverage that they simply leaked everywhere with no pass rush. So you had a LOT of long scoring drives.

McCarthy approach to numbers is simplistic. He sees teams that win tend to run late so he runs a lot late with ANY kind of lead or game play. I'd bet a mortgage payment he has a similar approach to defenses that allow big plays/TDs being harmful to your overall record.

But if they learn Dom's D (or any D) during the season for whatever reason, then pulling the normal D in favor of the do no harm D in the middle of the schedule is bound to backfire.

[mraynrand]

Theories 3 and 4 are not mutually exclusive. You have to ask yourself why they started hemorrhaging big plays on defense. The answer is they ran out of bodies to wreak havoc - both in the pass rush and in coverage. If you can't blanket cover and you can't rush the passer, the #4 option of the slow bleed is your only solution. But without a scoring offense to force the opposing team into a catch up offense, you have no leverage at all. Slow bleed and hope for error is all that remains.

[3irty1]

Yes. The slow bleed defense might actually be the best strategy for an outmatched, underdog team. Slow bleed shortens the game much like a run-heavy offense. Sprinkle in some risky maneuvers and this is the recipe for stealing games.

[pbmax]

I don’t think it pairs well with Hundley at QB. Need turnovers and risk from the D.

[Bossman641]

Yes. The slow bleed defense might actually be the best strategy for an outmatched, underdog team. Slow bleed shortens the game much like a run-heavy offense. Sprinkle in some risky maneuvers and this is the recipe for stealing games.

Did we sprinkle in risky maneuvers though? Seems to me Cspers played more and more cautious as the year went on....I'm guessing due to the db's we were playing.

[3irty1]

Perhaps not Capers but MM sure does. For a list of games where he most felt like an underdog look at games where a surprise onside kick was performed.

At some level turnovers are a numbers game. Slow bleed at least means numbers.

[mraynrand]

I don’t think it pairs well with Hundley at QB. Need turnovers and risk from the D.

I agree. But I just don't think they had the personnel to run it this year. Talent on defense is spread out - solid in many places but entirely unspectacular.

Even with risk, they really couldn't make plays against moderately good or better QBs.

[Fritz]

You people are so dumb. If Capers's first defense when he's hired is always so good, why not fire him and then hire him back every year?

Sheesh. It's obvious.

[pbmax]

I agree. But I just don't think they had the personnel to run it this year. Talent on defense is spread out - solid in many places but entirely unspectacular.

Even with risk, they really couldn't make plays against moderately good or better QBs.

Its kinda chicken and egg though. I do agree this year's combo of DB injury and pass rush incapacity was weirdly worse yet more coordinated than last year's wet paper towel of a defense.

However, if you take no risks on 3rd and medium to long (and the run D held up for the year) you are going to allow more converted 3rd downs regardless of your talent level. Hundley needed a hand, got one occasionally, but the D was usually not in a position to help. I will say that Capers D did get some stops especially in the second halves of games the offense was just standing in place. With BH at QB, the D delivered much more often than the O.

[pbmax]

You people are so dumb. If Capers's first defense when he's hired is always so good, why not fire him and then hire him back every year?

Sheesh. It's obvious.


He would need a disguise. Lom Drapers can't look like his previous incarnation. Might need a new voice too. Maybe do a Bane thing.

[pbmax]

Being in the same defense does have advantages. But it’s probably not what gets you from 30th to 15th ranked.

Roger Mays
Of the Vikings' 11 starters on defense, 7 have been with the team for at least four years. I wrote about Minnesota's key advantage: a unit-wide bachelor's degree in Mike Zimmer's scheme.

https://t.co/flu3nVIX86

[Pugger]

You people are so dumb. If Capers's first defense when he's hired is always so good, why not fire him and then hire him back every year?

Sheesh. It's obvious.

:lol:

[mraynrand]

He would need a disguise. Lom Drapers can't look like his previous incarnation. Might need a new voice too. Maybe do a Bane thing.

Just swap out the rug

[denverYooper]

Just swap out the rug

Or move it around his head -- one year it's a moustache, one year a beard, another some sideburns.

[ThunderDan]

You people are so dumb. If Capers's first defense when he's hired is always so good, why not fire him and then hire him back every year?

Sheesh. It's obvious.

Just give him a 1 year contract and let it expire every year!

[mraynrand]

Or move it around his head -- one year it's a moustache, one year a beard, another some sideburns.

worked for Holmgren

http://www.kerrydean.com/pictures/2009-sideburns-muttonchops-champion-toot-joslin.jpg

[denverYooper]

With Andrew Luck and Ryan Fitzpatrick, he could do some swell Civil War re-enactment

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FBzjIGnWIc AAe9gf.jpg&f=1