Mike Pettine

[Joemailman]

VERY impressed with his PC. http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Mike-Pettine-highlights-the-cornerstones-of-his-ideal-defense/011ef84f-0081-4178-9fee-611db29872efMaybe it's the Kool-aid kicking in.

Few things that stood out. He talked about how you used to go into a game with 50-60 defensive calls, and now it's down to 20-25. He said the reason is you're using younger players, and CBA has reduced time you can spend with the players. I wonder if this is an adjustment Capers was unable to make.

He said he has no desire to be a HC again. Said he missed the day to day camaraderie and coaching. More administrative responsibilities as a HC. Which means he could be here a while if he does well.

Talked about the 3-4/4-3 distinction being pretty much a thing of the past. Said you want to look multiple to opponents without becoming too complex. Talked about the versatility of Clay Matthews.

[denverYooper]

I just hope he spends more time at the Golden Corral so we can eventually call him "Heavy Pettine"

[George Cumby]

I agree, Joe. Clearly a smart guy. Hasn’t been dropped on his head too many times. Pretty darn articulate.

[red]

lets hope we see more 4/3 to go with the 3/4 and less 2/5, 1/6 and 0/12 looks or whatever the hell kind of shit capers used

[call_me_ishmael]

He nailed that presser. I wonder if we'll see the formation the Ravens used to (maybe still do) run where it seems like every body but the corners is in the box and could blitz. I loved that stuff.

[mraynrand]

I just hope he spends more time at the Golden Corral so we can eventually call him "Heavy Pettine"

Hefty Poutine?

[pbmax]

Finally a bald and shaved head defensive coordinator. Its about time.

Capers definitely simplified his D in the last two years (DB injuries) and I would be stunned if some paring had not happened before. Problem was that veteran QBs knew what they were getting, it wasn't fooling anyone. Plus it did not look like they were disguising much pre snap. Never heard about that. They did do some hybrid man and zone coverages.

But its hard to create a simple for you, complex for offense to read defense from concepts based in a 1992. Hopefully he took away some more current day concepts from Ryan and Carroll.

Truth be told though, if he makes them play fast and assignment sure, I will be happy with his hire. Then all they need is pass rush.

[mraynrand]

Then all they need is pass rush.

This is the bottom line. I'm on board with the Tom Coughlin philosophy - pass rush from the front four alleviates many other defensive shortcomings. You get this area solved and your defense will hum, even if you have some holes on the back end. Of course, personnel-wise, it's not easy. But it works.

[Maxie the Taxi]

This is the bottom line. I'm on board with the Tom Coughlin philosophy - pass rush from the front four alleviates many other defensive shortcomings. You get this area solved and your defense will hum, even if you have some holes on the back end. Of course, personnel-wise, it's not easy. But it works.

IMO, the D-line was what made the '96 Packers defense great (LeRoy Butler notwithstanding): Reggie, Gilbert, Santana Dotson and Sean Jones.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

IMO, the D-line was what made the '96 Packers defense great (LeRoy Butler notwithstanding): Reggie, Gilbert, Santana Dotson and Sean Jones.

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

[mraynrand]

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

true, but Reggie was a once in an epoch kind of acquisition. Without him, the whole Packer revival does not happen. Even with Favre.

[ND72]

I've liked the guy since i first saw him in the documentary "The Last Game" when he was coaching high school football. Maybe I'll try to get him to autograph it (bought a copy in college 16 years ago).

[red]

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

I was about to say the same thing. Best d-line in team history and none of them drafted by us

Isn’t it ironic, don’t cha think?

[Rutnstrut]

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

But, but, draft and develop. Free agents are some form of black magic.

[BZnDallas]

But, but, draft and develop. Free agents are some form of black magic.

*Yawn* Zzzzzzzzz
Ted is gone, get over it. The Draft and Develop system is great at getting an over priced, over aged team young and under the salary cap. Did Ted stay with it too long? I bet most will agree, get over it.

[mraynrand]

But, but, draft and develop. Free agents are some form of black magic.

You constitutive complainers are boring drones. Really. Under TT, Packers picked up few free agents. But when they did, they typically helped. Woodson, Pickett, Peppers, to a lesser extent Brooks, and even Green off the scrap heap.

Instead of the boring and repetitive complaining, how about a decent run-down of possible FA guys and why you'd sign 'em.

Or do a thorough analysis of FA defensive linemen and OLBs signed around the league from last season and see who worked, who failed and why.

[bobblehead]

VERY impressed with his PC. http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Mike-Pettine-highlights-the-cornerstones-of-his-ideal-defense/011ef84f-0081-4178-9fee-611db29872efMaybe it's the Kool-aid kicking in.

Few things that stood out. He talked about how you used to go into a game with 50-60 defensive calls, and now it's down to 20-25. He said the reason is you're using younger players, and CBA has reduced time you can spend with the players. I wonder if this is an adjustment Capers was unable to make.

He said he has no desire to be a HC again. Said he missed the day to day camaraderie and coaching. More administrative responsibilities as a HC. Which means he could be here a while if he does well.

Talked about the 3-4/4-3 distinction being pretty much a thing of the past. Said you want to look multiple to opponents without becoming too complex. Talked about the versatility of Clay Matthews.

And MM talks about the need to play physical and run the ball well and then the game starts.

I hope he means everything he says. But I treat coaches like I treat politicians. I don't much care what their lips say as much as what their actions say.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I was about to say the same thing. Best d-line in team history and none of them drafted by us

Isn’t it ironic, don’t cha think?A lot of Packer fans would argue that the 1962 D-line was the best in team history (Willie Davis, Henry Jordan, Dave Hanner, Bill Quinlan). Davis and Jordan are in the NFL HOF. Of those four only one (Hanner) was drafted by us.

[bobblehead]

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

So when is Reggie White going to become available in FA again? I mean, the game today is exactly the same as the game in 1996 right? I mean teams that have signed the biggest name FA win superbowls right? Albert Haynesworth, Josh Norman, Aaron Kampman (to jaguars), Julius Peppers (to Bears), Jared Allen, and I could go on, but that is just off the top of my head.

Ron Wolf took advantage of the infancy of FA and the fact that he had a publicly owned team that had a mountain of cash on hand and he bought a super bowl by paying Reggie whatever he wanted. Reggie was the greatest Defensive player of all time (imo). Don't get me wrong, if Khalil Mack or Von Miller become available I'm all for spending some money, but to overpay for AJ bouye...no thanks.

TTs biggest FA mistakes were not resigning some of his own like Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde. Overpaying Clay Mathews to be an elite pass rusher when he never was.

The problem with this team for awhile has been Dom Capers and occasionally mike mccarthy, and often injuries. There is adequate talent on the field to win with. I could on for hours about MM forgetting that running the ball is an option, or him and Dom not realizing Clay mathews could be an elite ILB, but merely above average OLB. Bottom line though is they were successful, but not Patriots successful. I was ready for some change...mainly Capers. Instead I fear we lost a great GM who was smart enough not to give in to the whims of fans. Every fan of every team believes they are ONE player from the superbowl. That is rarely the case.

[bobblehead]

And incidentally Wolf has exactly as many Lombardi trophies sitting in the packer hall of fame as TT does.

[bobblehead]

Ron wolf took the expansion Buccaneers to an 0-26 start before leaving the franchise. He never won a superbowl as a GM anywhere else. You guys deify him like he is some epoch success. TT built the seahawks team that went to the superbowl for Holmgren and he won a SB in GB with a QB everyone was pissed that he drafted.

Tell me why people think Wolf was so much better than TT?

[ZachMN]

Ron wolf took the expansion Buccaneers to an 0-26 start before leaving the franchise. He never won a superbowl as a GM anywhere else. You guys deify him like he is some epoch success. TT built the seahawks team that went to the superbowl for Holmgren and he won a SB in GB with a QB everyone was pissed that he drafted.

Tell me why people think Wolf was so much better than TT?

And he left the Packers in the hands of Sherman....

[Cobra Kai]

And he left the Packers in the hands of Sherman....

And 1 glorious year of Ray Rhodes...

[pbmax]

I was about to say the same thing. Best d-line in team history and none of them drafted by us

Isn’t it ironic, don’t cha think?

Too bad he couldn't sustain it.


Super Bowl I Don't Care: https://twitter.com/Terrell_Davis/status/956648009315516424

[pbmax]

Belichickism. :)

All were free agent acquisitions

Gilbert was a street free agent. None of the malcontents is asking for more of them.

[pbmax]

Ron wolf took the expansion Buccaneers to an 0-26 start before leaving the franchise. He never won a superbowl as a GM anywhere else. You guys deify him like he is some epoch success. TT built the seahawks team that went to the superbowl for Holmgren and he won a SB in GB with a QB everyone was pissed that he drafted.

Tell me why people think Wolf was so much better than TT?

Bobble, its easy to understand. Wolf was very good at answering the phone for reporters and answering questions in a snappy format during press conferences.

Its not yet dawned on the GB press corps (for that matter, the national press corp) that they were snowed.

[mraynrand]

Ron wolf took the expansion Buccaneers to an 0-26 start before leaving the franchise. He never won a superbowl as a GM anywhere else. You guys deify him like he is some epoch success. TT built the seahawks team that went to the superbowl for Holmgren and he won a SB in GB with a QB everyone was pissed that he drafted.

Tell me why people think Wolf was so much better than TT?

Can I choose both? I thought they were both pretty awesome. Wolf's last (or second-to-last, depending on which story you believe) GM year, 2000, was one for the ages. Should have netted the Packers a SB in 2002, APRH, and maybe 2003, ANFBF (assuming no Favre brain fart). Brought in Green (on Sherman's recommendation) in a total steal of a trade and 4-5 very productive starters in the draft.

BG has two pair of huge shoes to fill.

[Joemailman]

lets hope we see more 4/3 to go with the 3/4 and less 2/5, 1/6 and 0/12 looks or whatever the hell kind of shit capers used

The nickel defense is now the base defense in the NFL. The problem was not that the Packers played too much nickel and dime. The problem was that they did not play it well.

[MadScientist]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-new-packers-defensive-coordinator-mike-pettine-says-all/article_58f79393-8ea7-5888-ad9e-c0681baafb1c.html
This quote stood out for me:

“The cornerstone for us is going to be, first of all, fundamentally sound, smart football,” Pettine said. “We coach the heck out of the little details. If you want to get into the schematic stuff, I like to appear multiple. I know people have said the system can be very complicated, but we like to appear multiple without necessarily putting that much stuff in.”

It sounds like the defense will be fundamentally sound and not be overly complex, but just appear that way. I really like the sound of that, and I hope he pulls it off with the players he has available.

[Joemailman]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-new-packers-defensive-coordinator-mike-pettine-says-all/article_58f79393-8ea7-5888-ad9e-c0681baafb1c.html
This quote stood out for me:


It sounds like the defense will be fundamentally sound and not be overly complex, but just appear that way. I really like the sound of that, and I hope he pulls it off with the players he has available.

It's kind of just the opposite of what I saw from the Packers defense this past year. The defense seemed too complex for some of the Packer players to grasp, but it didn't seem to fool the opposition.


n the next few months, Pettine will be evaluating this roster to see what he has and see what it can do. The “cupboard isn’t bare,” Pettine remarked.

“In the NFL, it’s all about the players,” Pettine said. “I’ve always been a big believer in having a system and building your roster that way but you have to work with who you have on campus. You can’t win with players you don’t have.”

[pbmax]

It's kind of just the opposite of what I saw from the Packers defense this past year. The defense seemed too complex for some of the Packer players to grasp, but it didn't seem to fool the opposition.

Just remember that the phrase MadScientist quoted is the new version of "we want to be aggressive". Everyone wants to do it, few can.

We'll see. For the record, just as Capers had to scale his D back, Pettine and Ryan had to scale back their D in recent years in response to offenses picking up the pace plus going no huddle. Pettine's defenses slipped with the Jets and they mutually parted ways to go to Buffalo.

[pbmax]

I have to say the overall rankings from Football Outsiders (last three numbers) are very good for six of these years. but his pass D relies on a pass rush the Packers don't have right now. Without bolstering it, I think its Capers redux. There will be a bump due to unfamiliarity for at least the first eight games.


Overall FO Rankings
Year Tm Role Tms WL% T/G Pts Yds Ovr Pas Run
2009 NYJ DC 32 11 16 7 5 1 1 7
2010 NYJ DC 32 5 5 8 6 5 7 2
2011 NYJ DC 32 13 19 15 15 2 2 4
2012 NYJ DC 32 23 29 26 23 9 10 15
2013 BUF DC 32 24 12 22 16 4 2 19
2014 CLE HC 32 20 9 25 26 11 2 31
2015 CLE HC 32 31 28 32 28 29 27 26



Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PettMi0.htm?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#coaching_ranks)
Generated 1/26/2018.

[Fritz]

I was about to say the same thing. Best d-line in team history and none of them drafted by us

Isn’t it ironic, don’t cha think?


Not really. There was no salary cap back then.

[Smidgeon]

I have to say the overall rankings from Football Outsiders (last three numbers) are very good for six of these years. but his pass D relies on a pass rush the Packers don't have right now. Without bolstering it, I think its Capers redux. There will be a bump due to unfamiliarity for at least the first eight games.


Overall FO Rankings
Year Tm Role Tms WL% T/G Pts Yds Ovr Pas Run
2009 NYJ DC 32 11 16 7 5 1 1 7
2010 NYJ DC 32 5 5 8 6 5 7 2
2011 NYJ DC 32 13 19 15 15 2 2 4
2012 NYJ DC 32 23 29 26 23 9 10 15
2013 BUF DC 32 24 12 22 16 4 2 19
2014 CLE HC 32 20 9 25 26 11 2 31
2015 CLE HC 32 31 28 32 28 29 27 26



Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PettMi0.htm?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#coaching_ranks)
Generated 1/26/2018.

Does Cleveland count as he was "90% administrative and 10% football"? As an aside, this is why Edgar Bennett lost the OC job. McCarthy may call the plays, but he doesn't instill the offense and get it prepared (my read based on snippets of information here and there).

[pbmax]

Not really. There was no salary cap back then.

There was, but Reggie was first at the feed bucket.

After that, the Packers were in good cap shape for a while as everyone else tried to sign lesser Reggie's to more money.

Sean Jones they got because he was near the end. Dotson was a plumb get, even if he wasn't a game changer.

[pbmax]

Does Cleveland count as he was "90% administrative and 10% football"? As an aside, this is why Edgar Bennett lost the OC job. McCarthy may call the plays, but he doesn't instill the offense and get it prepared (my read based on snippets of information here and there).

Not as much as when he was DC. But it was his defense he installed, so you can't ignore it.

[3irty1]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop. When you have to follow a salary cap like everyone else, the path to a better team than everyone else is to hit your draft picks. Get great players on ridiculously underpriced rookie contracts. Every good team has this working for them.

Furthermore the free agency of Ron Wolf's day is very different from early Ted's day and starting to change again right now. Players like Reggie White will only hit free agency again in the rarest of circumstances. That was a different world. By Ted's day FA was something that bad teams did to get to the salary cap and good teams to put fingers in the dike. In this time period one of the best signings ever was Woodson and he was considered a major risk. Today FA is still retreads and risks but what's changing is the salary cap is exploding faster than contracts can keep up. Teams have money so might as well get some mercenaries to sure up the ranks.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You constitutive complainers are boring drones. Really. Under TT, Packers picked up few free agents. But when they did, they typically helped. Woodson, Pickett, Peppers, to a lesser extent Brooks, and even Green off the scrap heap.

Instead of the boring and repetitive complaining, how about a decent run-down of possible FA guys and why you'd sign 'em.

Or do a thorough analysis of FA defensive linemen and OLBs signed around the league from last season and see who worked, who failed and why.

Belichickism is not about signing every hotshot free agent every offseason. Instead, it's about utilizing ALL aspects -draft, trade, free agency - of players acquisition to improve/upgrade your roster, regularly and competently.

Yes, the Packers made it all the way to the NFC Title game without Randy Fucking Moss, bah, bah, bah. But would the Pack have been a more potent team with Moss? No doubt. Todd (we'll never forget you!) should've traded for Moss long before the Great Belichick had the chance to steal Moss away.

Deshawn Wynn is your best RB and Beast Mode's available - Trade for the Beast, already! MD Fucking Jennings is your starting FS, well, sign TJ Ward! A still-awesome Tony Gonzalez says he would love to play in Green Bay; What the fuck is the Polar Bear waiting for? Richard Rodgers is more fruitless than an apple tree on the north pole, and Vernon Davis is on the trade block; yeah, lets stick with the fruitless man. Gunter is your #1 CB; Antonio Cromartie's past his prime and on the streets of Baltimore selling dope to pay child supports, but Cro's still better than Gunter - Todd's hibernating (or loathes kneeling players). Hundley sucks and there's Kap.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop.

"Draft and develop" is nothing but a lame excuse incompetent GMs/coaches use to buy time. NFL stands for "Not for Long," doesn't it?

Quarterback is possibly the only position in the NFL in which further "development" is necessary. College is for development. The NFL is for improvement. In other words, players develop in college and in the NFL they seek to get better. As Wolf liked to say, you either can play or you can't in the NFL. An NFL player has to continue getting better, or more likely than not, he will get replaced. You draft a Deshawn Wynn, you get a Deshawn Wynn. You're not gonna "develop" Wynn into a Adrian Peterson.

[texaspackerbacker]

There is no such thing as an alternative to draft and develop. When you have to follow a salary cap like everyone else, the path to a better team than everyone else is to hit your draft picks. Get great players on ridiculously underpriced rookie contracts. Every good team has this working for them.

Furthermore the free agency of Ron Wolf's day is very different from early Ted's day and starting to change again right now. Players like Reggie White will only hit free agency again in the rarest of circumstances. That was a different world. By Ted's day FA was something that bad teams did to get to the salary cap and good teams to put fingers in the dike. In this time period one of the best signings ever was Woodson and he was considered a major risk. Today FA is still retreads and risks but what's changing is the salary cap is exploding faster than contracts can keep up. Teams have money so might as well get some mercenaries to sure up the ranks.

I guess you're too young to remember back in the day George Allen and the Redskins trading away virtually their entire draft almost every year. They were pretty successful at that alternative method of team building. I don't necessarily advocate that or even a modern version of it, but just saying ......

I would argue that the steadily increasing - you say exploding - salary cap makes quality free agent signing more feasible, not less than in Ron Wolf's day. Wolf of course, was way more draft and develop than most GMs - just not nearly to the extent that Ted Thompson was.

The current plight of the Packers is a direct result of Ron AND Ted's flawed way of doing things. It was masked for over two decades by the greatness of Aaron Rodgers and Favre before him, but it caught up with us last season.

What's this stuff doing in a Pettine thread instead of a Gutekunst thread?

[mraynrand]

The current plight of the Packers is a direct result of Ron AND Ted's flawed way of doing things. It was masked for over two decades by the greatness of Aaron Rodgers and Favre before him, but it caught up with us last season.

As always, this is a very stupid take. Success and draft position are inversely related, so that the greater are Favre and Rodgers (and the schemes developed by the coaches who train them) the lower the draft status, which is more responsible for the quality of players than the GMs. Success with draft picks and success with FAs are not guaranteed, but FA failure is literally more costly, making it inherently more risky.

I'll say it one last time - based on overall success, relative to the rest of the NFL, anyone who thinks that Wolf and TT are flawed GMs is a fool.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

[mraynrand]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

Well I see you've upped the ante on stupidity. First, if you just want to compare to Belichick then fine - you will be disappointed. Because he's the best - by far. It's like an innovator saying if I can't be like Edison or Jobs, then I suck.

Second, Thompson was more successful - bottom line - than all but two or three of his contemporary GMs. So saying he's a drag on Packer success is just stubborn idiocy. He brought in the coach who developed the offense and the QB that GB ran to great success. You can't separate him from those results and cast them onto Rodgers in isolation (well you can, but you look the fool). He brought in the parts that worked with Rodgers - Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Finley, and the O-line (which when healthy was considered one of the best in the NFL - certainly based on FA his O-linemen were well-regarded; e.g. Lang and Sitton). Despite the hatred of Capers and the defense, he did bring in the parts that kept them competitive for many years.

Show me the teams that built up 'overall strength' 'way better' than the Packers over TT's run. And how do you argue that without considering how their bottom line compares in regular season and playoff wins, playoff appearances, and championships. You know, the things that matter.

[pbmax]

"Draft and develop" is nothing but a lame excuse incompetent GMs/coaches use to buy time. NFL stands for "Not for Long," doesn't it?

Quarterback is possibly the only position in the NFL in which further "development" is necessary. College is for development. The NFL is for improvement. In other words, players develop in college and in the NFL they seek to get better. As Wolf liked to say, you either can play or you can't in the NFL. An NFL player has to continue getting better, or more likely than not, he will get replaced. You draft a Deshawn Wynn, you get a Deshawn Wynn. You're not gonna "develop" Wynn into a Adrian Peterson.

College's do less development than ever before as practice time has dwindled. Also hurts when college schemes don't match the pros.

NFL relies more and more on younger players as salary cap make the young ones much less expensive.

Develop is more important than ever.

[pbmax]

I guess you're too young to remember back in the day George Allen and the Redskins trading away virtually their entire draft almost every year. They were pretty successful at that alternative method of team building. I don't necessarily advocate that or even a modern version of it, but just saying ......


Edward Bennett Williams: I gave George an unlimited budget and he exceeded it.

You couldn't do George Allen these days without rebuilding as often as the Florida Marlins. He once traded a draft pick he did not control.

[pbmax]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

[Smidgeon]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

Fingers crossed Gute is more like TT than most of the forum desires.

[ZachMN]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

I agree with this- I just wish TT would have been better with the D linemen. I feel that we had more busts than serviceable players. I am willing to bet most of the GM's have ups and downs in terms of 'success' however we agree to measure that objectively. And I maybe wrong in my evaluation of his D lineman success...I guess I just want players who are more dominating thus allowing us a decent pass rush. But to your last statement Hoody genius is just that and somehow he gets players to buy in and then cash in via winning.

[gbgary]

Fingers crossed Gute is more like TT...

after Rodgers moves on and the sun explodes...fine, but until then it should be win-now.

[ThunderDan]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

Seattle started having trouble once they had to start paying their drafted players 2nd contracts. Pay your qb $750,000 a year. No problem keeping you pro bowlers on D. The Sea D has been picked apart now that Wilson is making fair market value.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good GMs (is Belichick even the GM?) don't make great teams, but they can ruin them or at least make them worse - Ted Thompson being a prime example. Belichick's best quality is doing no harm. I reject the idea that he has some kind of a monopoly on football smarts. Like almost every other consistent winner, he has had some great LUCK - getting Brady in the 6th round among other things - and has managed to not screw things up. Cheating probably hasn't hurt his outcomes either.

[mraynrand]

So the great GM's don't actually draft or acquire talent. They just throw darts and then get out of the way of the coaching staff?

[pbmax]

I agree with this- I just wish TT would have been better with the D linemen. I feel that we had more busts than serviceable players. I am willing to bet most of the GM's have ups and downs in terms of 'success' however we agree to measure that objectively. And I maybe wrong in my evaluation of his D lineman success...I guess I just want players who are more dominating thus allowing us a decent pass rush. But to your last statement Hoody genius is just that and somehow he gets players to buy in and then cash in via winning.

I do buy the idea that Ted ignored FA and trades at his own peril. And at times it has hurt, though no one remembers that FA is no panacea when they are criticizing. Of the three reasonably priced FAs this year, one played well (Evans) and he was a pros pro. Very much like Peppers.

The team needs an approach to find the best value (production/cost) to slim down the needs before the draft and actually allow some more BPA during the draft.

But more free agency with a poor hit rate isn't going to fix the team. And Ted is no longer drafting. And his record with his team was Top 2-3 in the league. Tough act to follow even with Rodgers.

[mraynrand]

after Rodgers moves on and the sun explodes...fine, but until then it should be win-now.

Let's say this is right. Now do the heavy lifting. Given the salary cap, who do they cut and who do they sign to win now? Specific players, please.

[Joemailman]

I do buy the idea that Ted ignored FA and trades at his own peril. And at times it has hurt, though no one remembers that FA is no panacea when they are criticizing. Of the three reasonably priced FAs this year, one played well (Evans) and he was a pros pro. Very much like Peppers.

The team needs an approach to find the best value (production/cost) to slim down the needs before the draft and actually allow some more BPA during the draft.

But more free agency with a poor hit rate isn't going to fix the team. And Ted is no longer drafting. And his record with his team was Top 2-3 in the league. Tough act to follow even with Rodgers.

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

[bobblehead]

Seattle started having trouble once they had to start paying their drafted players 2nd contracts. Pay your qb $750,000 a year. No problem keeping you pro bowlers on D. The Sea D has been picked apart now that Wilson is making fair market value.

But..But, Schneider makes brilliant moves like trading a 2nd for Sheldon Richardson that keeps him right in the superbowl hunt. He uses FA and trades and is brilliant. Look at how he traded an all pro center for Jimmy Graham and they went on to win multiple super bowls.

[pbmax]

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

His 2011-13 drafts were poor overall, especially on D. I still think Spriggs is the starting RT next year. Fackrell is serviceable and moved his play up a notch this year, though still no pass rush.

I would consider neither to be in Worthy range, who couldn't do what he was signed to do (penetrate) and was terrible at holding the point of attack.

Rollins, should he be able to be healthy for a year, will be interesting to watch. So I think the book is still out on more recent efforts.

[Smidgeon]

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

Nobody has no misses.

[Fritz]

When PB writes that it would help to be active before the draft to "actually allow some more BPA during the draft," I think back to Ted's early drafts. He seemed to go more BPA in those days - did the team need Aaron Rodgers at that moment? Did it need Jordy Nelson at that point? It was once Ted starting seeming at least to choose for need (say, what a coincidence that the team needed a safety so bad and the best player on the board happened to be Clinton-Dix, or that the team needed a penetrating pass rusher and traded up for Jerel Worthless) that things seemed to go less well.

[Bretsky]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.



So you are saying we should blame Ted for hiring the wrong coach ? :)

[Bretsky]

But..But, Schneider makes brilliant moves like trading a 2nd for Sheldon Richardson that keeps him right in the superbowl hunt. He uses FA and trades and is brilliant. Look at how he traded an all pro center for Jimmy Graham and they went on to win multiple super bowls.


Schneider would probably be our GM if we could have got him for nothing
Same # of SB's as Ted in I think less time and had the coach just given Lynch the ball............

Well either way they are both currently farts in the wind.

[mraynrand]

When PB writes that it would help to be active before the draft to "actually allow some more BPA during the draft," I think back to Ted's early drafts. He seemed to go more BPA in those days - did the team need Aaron Rodgers at that moment? Did it need Jordy Nelson at that point? It was once Ted starting seeming at least to choose for need (say, what a coincidence that the team needed a safety so bad and the best player on the board happened to be Clinton-Dix, or that the team needed a penetrating pass rusher and traded up for Jerel Worthless) that things seemed to go less well.

Sure, there's some of that. But there's also 2009 - where both first round picks were for need - going to the "3-4" and they turned out well (well enough).

Bottom line is of course that you have to hit on your picks and FA. Having more picks typically means more success, but if you are picking lower your chances of a game changer are less too. Just like in the Sherman days, moving up/trading to get someone is great if they work out (Al Harris, Javon Walker), but devastating if they don't (take your pick).

[pbmax]

Easier to be BPA when you are rebuilding a roster too.

[gbgary]

Let's say this is right. Now do the heavy lifting. Given the salary cap, who do they cut and who do they sign to win now? Specific players, please.

they're some $22m+- under the cap now. they don't have to cut anyone. they have a month before the league year begins to make more room if they think they need it (they can do it later but there's a cost to it). they have to decide if they're going for the short-term win-now plan or go for the long-term plan. i don't think they'll do the long term thing as it means (imo) trading Rodgers to cle for their 2 #1's+++. doing so would get them a qb at #1, pick #4 and #14 to get whoever, end all cap issues, sign anyone they want in free agency, and collect later for anything else they could get in the deal. since we know that ain't happenin', the short term is all that's left...which is 3-5 years years max imo. the 3 names constantly being brought up for cutting are Jordy, Cobb, and Clay. i think they want to keep them all so if they're willing to take a cut and extend for a year or two, fine. that'll get them a little more room...which is likely to be eaten up by Rodger's extension. cutting them is a step backward imo. this year the d is going to go through a big learning curve so i don't expect them to be so great. losing Clay's experience would hurt. this year's schedule is a killer. i say let them play out their contracts and aim for 2019 when $30m+ falls off the payroll and the cap goes up another $15m.

edit: ya know, after typing all that...with next year's learning curve and schedule, why put off the $30m drop-off a year? cut the 3 of them now and start the fix now. that should get them a better pick next year than keeping them another year would. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/images/smilies/wink5.gif

[Joemailman]

they're some $22m+- under the cap now. they don't have to cut anyone. they have a month before the league year begins to make more room if they think they need it (they can do it later but there's a cost to it). they have to decide if they're going for the short-term win-now plan or go for the long-term plan. i don't think they'll do the long term thing as it means (imo) trading Rodgers to cle for their 2 #1's+++. doing so would get them a qb at #1, pick #4 and #14 to get whoever, end all cap issues, sign anyone they want in free agency, and collect later for anything else they could get in the deal. since we know that ain't happenin', the short term is all that's left...which is 3-5 years years max imo. the 3 names constantly being brought up for cutting are Jordy, Cobb, and Clay. i think they want to keep them all so if they're willing to take a cut and extend for a year or two, fine. that'll get them a little more room...which is likely to be eaten up by Rodger's extension. cutting them is a step backward imo. this year the d is going to go through a big learning curve so i don't expect them to be so great. losing Clay's experience would hurt. this year's schedule is a killer. i say let them play out their contracts and aim for 2019 when $30m+ falls off the payroll and the cap goes up another $15m.

They might need to cut someone if they want to sign Burnett. Otherwise, they're okay. I'm torn on Jordy. He looked really slow the 2nd half of the season. Still, he had 6 TD receptions with Rodgers playing, so he's still someone Rodgers likes to go to.

[gbgary]

They might need to cut someone if they want to sign Burnett. Otherwise, they're okay. I'm torn on Jordy. He looked really slow the 2nd half of the season. Still, he had 6 TD receptions with Rodgers playing, so he's still someone Rodgers likes to go to.

see my edit to that post.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

More likely, the Pats might've been capable of winning a fluke Super Bowl without Brady, with all other things being equal, but no way they win 6 (yes, they will win the 6th on Sunday) without Brady.

Tom Brady is an elite QB, the champion of the Pats. As Belichick himself has proved time and time again, the math is simple: Belichickism + Elite QB = Super Bowl wins.

The Packers have an elite QB on their roster, do they not?

[mraynrand]

they're some $22m+- under the cap now. they don't have to cut anyone. they have a month before the league year begins to make more room if they think they need it (they can do it later but there's a cost to it). they have to decide if they're going for the short-term win-now plan or go for the long-term plan. i don't think they'll do the long term thing as it means (imo) trading Rodgers to cle for their 2 #1's+++. doing so would get them a qb at #1, pick #4 and #14 to get whoever, end all cap issues, sign anyone they want in free agency, and collect later for anything else they could get in the deal. since we know that ain't happenin', the short term is all that's left...which is 3-5 years years max imo. the 3 names constantly being brought up for cutting are Jordy, Cobb, and Clay. i think they want to keep them all so if they're willing to take a cut and extend for a year or two, fine. that'll get them a little more room...which is likely to be eaten up by Rodger's extension. cutting them is a step backward imo. this year the d is going to go through a big learning curve so i don't expect them to be so great. losing Clay's experience would hurt. this year's schedule is a killer. i say let them play out their contracts and aim for 2019 when $30m+ falls off the payroll and the cap goes up another $15m.

edit: ya know, after typing all that...with next year's learning curve and schedule, why put off the $30m drop-off a year? cut the 3 of them now and start the fix now. that should get them a better pick next year than keeping them another year would. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/images/smilies/wink5.gif

So who do they sign to win now? I assumed there was a player on another roster who TT would never sign, but maybe BG would sign that would lead to a championship. You know, Belichickism. But who is that guy(s)?

[mraynrand]

More likely, the Pats might've been capable of winning a fluke Super Bowl without Brady, with all other things being equal, but no way they win 6 (yes, they will win the 6th on Sunday) without Brady.

Tom Brady is an elite QB, the champion of the Pats. As Belichick himself has proved time and time again, the math is simple: Belichickism + Elite QB = Super Bowl wins.

The Packers have an elite QB on their roster, do they not?

Sure, now all they need to do is trade Stubby/BG for Belichick.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Sure, now all they need to do is trade Stubby/BG for Belichick.

Not necessary, although I would love to see J-Mac in the Green and Gold as GM/Coach.

Look at the Eagles. Upgraded team via free agency. Upgraded team via trades. In the Super Bowl. That's Belichickism.

No reason the German Shepherd can't utilize Belichickism. Gutekunst has the cap space. He has the money. He has the elite QB. He needs to do his fucking job, as Belichick is fond of saying.

[mraynrand]

When philly is in 7 super Bowls over the next fifteen years then we’ll see how close to cheat they’ve come.

[gbgary]

So who do they sign to win now? I assumed there was a player on another roster who TT would never sign, but maybe BG would sign that would lead to a championship. You know, Belichickism. But who is that guy(s)?

in a short-term win-now (while Rodgers is still here 3-5yrs) you sign actual upgrades where you can. Malcolm Butler or Bashaud Breeland at cb perhaps, Tre Boston to take Burnett's place, or Austin Seferian-Jenkins at TE. that's if they keep Jordy, Cobb, Mathews. if they let one of the wrs go they could sign Jarvis Landry. if they let Mathews go they could sign Avery Williamson as an ilb and draft Clays successor. just some ideas.

[pbmax]

in a short-term win-now (while Rodgers is still here 3-5yrs) you sign actual upgrades where you can. Malcolm Butler or Bashaud Breeland at cb perhaps, Tre Boston to take Burnett's place, or Austin Seferian-Jenkins at TE. that's if they keep Jordy, Cobb, Mathews. if they let one of the wrs go they could sign Jarvis Landry. if they let Mathews go they could sign Avery Williamson as an ilb and draft Clays successor. just some ideas.

Jarvis Landry is Cobb with double the targets.

[mraynrand]

in a short-term win-now (while Rodgers is still here 3-5yrs) you sign actual upgrades where you can. Malcolm Butler or Bashaud Breeland at cb perhaps, Tre Boston to take Burnett's place, or Austin Seferian-Jenkins at TE. that's if they keep Jordy, Cobb, Mathews. if they let one of the wrs go they could sign Jarvis Landry. if they let Mathews go they could sign Avery Williamson as an ilb and draft Clays successor. just some ideas.

thanks for putting your cards on the table. Seferian-Jenkins is an interesting idea.

[gbgary]

Jarvis Landry is Cobb with double the targets.

2 years younger than Cobb and 7 younger than Jordy. will be the same price.

[pbmax]

2 years younger than Cobb and 7 younger than Jordy. will be the same price.

Yeah, but Cobb wasn't worth it unless he was #3. Landry won't be worth it as #2. You have to be one of the best slot guys in an offense with a good #1 and 2.

I love the guy, but he is the quintessential third option, get open and make a catch on third and short guy.

Would much rather have reliable #2 and keep Cobb.

[call_me_ishmael]

Landry is going to make as much as Adams. Maybe more. In my largely uninformed opinion, he's a better player who did it with a worse QB. He'll make more on the free market if he hits it.

[gbgary]

Landry is going to make as much as Adams. Maybe more. In my largely uninformed opinion, he's a better player who did it with a worse QB. He'll make more on the free market if he hits it.

perhaps. they'll have to see if he fits.

[gbgary]

Yeah, but Cobb wasn't worth it unless he was #3. Landry won't be worth it as #2. You have to be one of the best slot guys in an offense with a good #1 and 2.

I love the guy, but he is the quintessential third option, get open and make a catch on third and short guy.

Would much rather have reliable #2 and keep Cobb.

he's had two 100+ catch years in the last 3 (with a 94 catch year in between). that doesn't sound like a 3 to me. i could be wrong. i don't watch mia play.

there are going to be other guys come free besides the ones we know about now.

[pbmax]

he's had two 100+ catch years in the last 3 (with a 94 catch year in between). that doesn't sound like a 3 to me. i could be wrong. i don't watch mia play.

there are going to be other guys come free besides the ones we know about now.

In the last four years he is 102th out of 134 for players with 50 or more catches total in yards per reception at 10.10 per catch. He's quick not fast and would be captain check down in the Packer offense.

[Bretsky]

Jarvis Landry is Cobb with double the targets.

Is that because he runs much better routes and gets open more frequently ?

Cobb seems to be master of the ad lib though

[pbmax]

Is that because he runs much better routes and gets open more frequently ?

Cobb seems to be master of the ad lib though

He is small and quick, not tremendously fast. Could he do more with Rodgers?

Maybe. You want to pay $10-14 mil per year to find out?

[Bretsky]

He is small and quick, not tremendously fast. Could he do more with Rodgers?

Maybe. You want to pay $10-14 mil per year to find out?


NO WAY am I paying 10-14 MIL; I don't want Cobb around there either

It's time to funnel some funds toward the defense, draft a WR high, and head back to the big show

[ThunderDan]

NO WAY am I paying 10-14 MIL; I don't want Cobb around there either

It's time to funnel some funds toward the defense, draft a WR high, and head back to the big show

Yup, we need to hit on high picks so we can have a #1 WR on a rookie contract. Clark has shown promise. Randall actually played pretty well after getting sent off the field this season.

Finally drafting as high as we are this year we have a better chance of getting a star.

[Bretsky]

Yup, we need to hit on high picks so we can have a #1 WR on a rookie contract. Clark has shown promise. Randall actually played pretty well after getting sent off the field this season.

Finally drafting as high as we are this year we have a better chance of getting a star.


I think our #2 is finally high enough to grab a legit WR with huge upside. Hopefully we get an impact Defensive player round one.

[BZnDallas]

I think our #2 is finally high enough to grab a legit WR with huge upside. Hopefully we get an impact Defensive player round one.

I was kinda hoping for the TE from Penn St with our no.2. I could be convinced to take a WR especially if he has Jordy or Jennings potential.

[pbmax]

NO WAY am I paying 10-14 MIL; I don't want Cobb around there either

It's time to funnel some funds toward the defense, draft a WR high, and head back to the big show

I should say that I am not certain that's what he will command, but gary was suggesting that he was going to be at least a#2 somewhere. So without doing actual research, I am going to say a vet as #2 WR on his first FA deal will be making north of $8 mil per year at least.

[texaspackerbacker]

I don't want any of the TEs I've seen or heard mentioned before the 4th round. Get Jimmy Graham and then draft a high potential sleeper TE on Saturday.

WR should be handled in-house. Cobb for sure should not be paid $12+ million; Jordy shouldn't either. I'd offer Cobb about a third of that - which would probably mean losing him. I'd offer Jordy the same with large incentives - he just might get some speed back and return to form this far out from his injury, but probably not. Between Adams, Allison, Janis, Davis, Clark, and Yancy, we have plenty of talent and variety without wasting a high pick on somebody who ain't a sure thing - and nobody out there this year is that.

If at all possible, sign a top of the line FA Corner - what we have now is literally half a dozen decent #2 Corners. Signing anything less than a star quality player or risking a first round pick again just wouldn't cut it.

A quality pass rusher is the best bet to produce right away as a first round pick. Marcus Davenport looked awfully good. I also like Okoronko or however it's spelled, but maybe not until the 2nd round. I've been saying for a long time, use Clay Matthews mainly as a ILB. Paired with Martinez and occasionally moving back outside would be great and prolong his career. We absolutely should not use the first round pick for an ILB, considering that we have Martinez and how seldom we use 2 ILBs at a time.

The only other position we aren't pretty well set is O Line. I'd like to see 2 or 3 big road grader types drafted maybe 3rd through 6th round - enough of drafting undersized guys.

Why is all this draft stuff in the Pettine thread?

[mraynrand]

Why is all this draft stuff in the Pettine thread?

this is Packerrats

[Joemailman]

http://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/30/count-on-clay-matthews-being-back-with-packers-in-2018/


Clay Matthews will almost certainly be back with the Green Bay Packers in 2018.

New defensive coordinator Mike Pettine and new general manager Brian Gutekunst both recently talked about Matthews in a way that strongly suggests he’s in no danger of losing his roster spot in Green Bay.

At his introductory press conference last week, Pettine raved about Matthews’ unique versatility and said he was “looking forward” to working with him in 2018.

The man who will ultimately make the decision was even more clear on Matthews’ future.

“He still plays at a very, very high level. He’s such a versatile player for us, and I think it will be neat to see how Mike (Pettine) and his new staff kind of use him and maybe move him around. So I’m excited to see that,” Gutekunst said, according to Pete Dougherty of PackersNews.com. “Clay has been a good player for a long time. We expect him to be a good player moving forward.”

Pettine is probably the busiest man in Green Bay right now, figuring out which of the defensive players here are a fit for his defense. To some extent, he has to use what is already here, but his opinions could have a big effect on what Gutey does in free agency and the draft.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

this is Packerrats

:tup:

And why Packerrats is so cool compared to other sites.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Pettine is probably the busiest man in Green Bay right now, figuring out which of the defensive players here are a fit for his defense. To some extent, he has to use what is already here, but his opinions could have a big effect on what Gutey does in free agency and the draft.

Easier said than done, and pretty obvious, but the Packers could use more pass rush and a shutdown corner.


“He still plays at a very, very high level. He’s such a versatile player for us, and I think it will be neat to see how Mike (Pettine) and his new staff kind of use him and maybe move him around. So I’m excited to see that,” Gutekunst said, according to Pete Dougherty of PackersNews.com. “Clay has been a good player for a long time. We expect him to be a good player moving forward.”

Still too early, but I'm starting to like the German Shepherd. Maybe I won't need to ask Mad to change my username to Anti-German Shepherd, after all.

[bobblehead]

Not necessary, although I would love to see J-Mac in the Green and Gold as GM/Coach.

Look at the Eagles. Upgraded team via free agency. Upgraded team via trades. In the Super Bowl. That's Belichickism.

No reason the German Shepherd can't utilize Belichickism. Gutekunst has the cap space. He has the money. He has the elite QB. He needs to do his fucking job, as Belichick is fond of saying.

And I will ask AGAIN. Who is it that Gute the great should sign. I want names or its just meaningless bluster. JJ Watt? AJ Green? Give me names.

[bobblehead]

I don't want any of the TEs I've seen or heard mentioned before the 4th round. Get Jimmy Graham and then draft a high potential sleeper TE on Saturday.
?

I'm anti Jimmy, but since MM seems to forget that running the ball is an option he would probably be a fit.

[Zool]

Not sure that "forget that running the ball is an option" is accurate.

2017 27th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 21st in total plays, 21st in scoring
2016 29th in carries, 5th in pass attempts, 8th in total plays, 4th in scoring
2015 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 15th in scoring
2014 14th in carries, 20th in pass attempts, 24th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2013 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 11th in total plays, 8th in scoring
2012 16th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 5th in scoring
2011 26th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 28th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2010 20th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 20th in total plays, 10th in scoring

[gbgary]

And I will ask AGAIN. Who is it that Gute the great should sign. I want names or its just meaningless bluster. JJ Watt? AJ Green? Give me names.

packerrats.com/showthread.php?30279-Mike-Pettine&p=964394&viewfull=1#post964394 (http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?30279-Mike-Pettine&p=964394&viewfull=1#post964394)

[Rutnstrut]

Not sure that "forget that running the ball is an option" is accurate.

2017 27th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 21st in total plays, 21st in scoring
2016 29th in carries, 5th in pass attempts, 8th in total plays, 4th in scoring
2015 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 15th in scoring
2014 14th in carries, 20th in pass attempts, 24th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2013 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 11th in total plays, 8th in scoring
2012 16th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 5th in scoring
2011 26th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 28th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2010 20th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 20th in total plays, 10th in scoring

It's highly accurate. Stubby gets all flustered when the run is working and has to do something stubby like.

[Bretsky]

And I will ask AGAIN. Who is it that Gute the great should sign. I want names or its just meaningless bluster. JJ Watt? AJ Green? Give me names.


I haven't even looked at FA yet; but I was pounding the table for Conner Barwin last year and he was decent.

As long as you are trying to get some to go on record, are you saying "NO" free agents ?

OR....exactly who do you think they should sign ?

It's easy to punch holes in those who post opinions for those who don't post theirs. Not sainng that's you.....but it's only fair for you to be specific too if that's what you are asking others to do.

I'll definitely have viewed in a few weeks. Too Early now..

[bobblehead]

Not sure that "forget that running the ball is an option" is accurate.

2017 27th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 21st in total plays, 21st in scoring
2016 29th in carries, 5th in pass attempts, 8th in total plays, 4th in scoring
2015 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 15th in scoring
2014 14th in carries, 20th in pass attempts, 24th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2013 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 11th in total plays, 8th in scoring
2012 16th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 5th in scoring
2011 26th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 28th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2010 20th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 20th in total plays, 10th in scoring

Stats and damn stats. Running the ball 17 times straight into the teeth of a defense after ARod staked you to a 4th quarter lead doesn't mean you value the run. Look at all the success we had running when we were forced to with Hundly. Rodgers comes back and I believe we called 11 running plays.

[bobblehead]

I haven't even looked at FA yet; but I was pounding the table for Conner Barwin last year and he was decent.

As long as you are trying to get some to go on record, are you saying "NO" free agents ?

OR....exactly who do you think they should sign ?

It's easy to punch holes in those who post opinions for those who don't post theirs. Not sainng that's you.....but it's only fair for you to be specific too if that's what you are asking others to do.

I'll definitely have viewed in a few weeks. Too Early now..

I don't like this years crop to be honest. If I had to pick a name or 2 I would go with Sammy Watkins and Luke Wilson. 2 guys we could get cheap that may excel with ARod.

[mraynrand]

Watch Cheat get SW and turn him into all pro (only if Brady stays and APRH)

[pbmax]

If I ran Stubby's offense, I would run 25% of the time in non-end of half/game scenarios. Play action pass 50%, shotgun pass 20%, shotgun run 5%.

Graham Barfield @GrahamBarfield
New #Titans OC Matt LaFleur has been attached to the two most play-action heavy teams in 2017 as LAR OC (29% of pass plays were PA) and in 2016 as ATL QB Coach (28%). Marcus Mariota led all QBs in YPA on play-action passes (11.1) in 2017, per PFF.

Russell Hudson @rhud1979
You have to run the rock (and run it well) well for play action to work, right?

Graham Barfield @GrahamBarfield
This is a common myth.
Play-action has little to do with success running the ball, and everything to do with deceiving the defense. Play-action was very effective for teams like SEA last year, who had zero consistency running. Balance is overrated.

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Can't agree more. Been saying this forever.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
We've written about this numerous times and have another guest column on the subject coming from @guga31bb after the Super Bowl.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
What matters is not how well you run. What matters is only that you run enough to make the deception of running believeable.

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Disagree slightly here. Per game theory, you only need the credible threat of running. PA would work just fine on the very first play of the season.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
Right, PA would work fine on the first play of the season because there's an assumption that no team in the NFL runs 90% of the time. :)

[Bretsky]

I should say that I am not certain that's what he will command, but gary was suggesting that he was going to be at least a#2 somewhere. So without doing actual research, I am going to say a vet as #2 WR on his first FA deal will be making north of $8 mil per year at least.


I think I'd take Landry for 8MIL/year

[Bretsky]

I don't like this years crop to be honest. If I had to pick a name or 2 I would go with Sammy Watkins and Luke Wilson. 2 guys we could get cheap that may excel with ARod.

That's a great answer; I could embrace Wadtkins. Not sure about Wilson

[Bossman641]

I don't like this years crop to be honest. If I had to pick a name or 2 I would go with Sammy Watkins and Luke Wilson. 2 guys we could get cheap that may excel with ARod.
Im intrigued by Allen Robinson if he's looking to rehabilitate his value. Sign him to a short term deal. Going from bortles to Rodgers would be like Christmas for him.

[Smidgeon]

Not sure that "forget that running the ball is an option" is accurate.

2017 27th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 21st in total plays, 21st in scoring
2016 29th in carries, 5th in pass attempts, 8th in total plays, 4th in scoring
2015 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 15th in scoring
2014 14th in carries, 20th in pass attempts, 24th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2013 12th in carries, 18th in pass attempts, 11th in total plays, 8th in scoring
2012 16th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 9th in total plays, 5th in scoring
2011 26th in carries, 14th in pass attempts, 28th in total plays, 1st in scoring
2010 20th in carries, 16th in pass attempts, 20th in total plays, 10th in scoring

2016 and 2017 it certainly looks true. When did EB take over as OC?

[Joemailman]

2016 and 2017 it certainly looks true. When did EB take over as OC?

2015. 2016 can be explained by the injuries to Lacy and Starks. 2017 they were behind an awful lot. Even when they were winning early, they were being forced to come from behind.

[mraynrand]

If I ran Stubby's offense, I would run 25% of the time in non-end of half/game scenarios. Play action pass 50%, shotgun pass 20%, shotgun run 5%....

Disagree slightly here. Per game theory, you only need the credible threat of running. PA would work just fine on the very first play of the season....


you at least need to have a back of some kind in the backfield to run play action. Duh. So a critical factor for the GBP is how often they go empty. Sorry, I have no numbers, but seems important for run game 'threat' and ability to fool the defense. But a always, the reason you pass all the time is because your guy/offense does it so well.

[Smidgeon]

2015. 2016 can be explained by the injuries to Lacy and Starks. 2017 they were behind an awful lot. Even when they were winning early, they were being forced to come from behind.

Comparing 2017 to the other year Rodgers went down, they both had running back talent although Lacy was better. They commited to running the offense through the run game that year. Maybe because their QB cupboard was bare. This year, they had their second worst rate since the super bowl, despite having two rookies who appeared to belong in the NFL.

[mraynrand]

This year, they had their second worst rate since the super bowl, despite having two rookies who appeared to belong in the NFL.

getting behind and playing from behind for whole games does that to you. They couldn't run as effectively when teams realized they didn't need to defense any pass over 15 yards. :)

[pbmax]

you at least need to have a back of some kind in the backfield to run play action. Duh. So a critical factor for the GBP is how often they go empty. Sorry, I have no numbers, but seems important for run game 'threat' and ability to fool the defense. But a always, the reason you pass all the time is because your guy/offense does it so well.

Michael Salfino @MichaelSalfino
We had play action stats for a long time. You could at least see that there was no correlation between play action success and running efficiency. And it’s been obvious for decades that there is no correlation between running well and passing well, period.

Defenses REALLY want to stop the run, often to their detriment on 1st and 2nd down. As an example, I give you the phantom play action.

Well, now I can't find it. But someone had video of Peyton Manning faking a handoff to empty space and the ILB taking a step forward to fill against the run. It was an empty backfield. And I believe he has done this numerous times. Point is, you almost don't need to run or threaten to run, to make PA work. Its instinctual in Defenses to obsess about the run first. Its the first read for the ILBs normally.

[mraynrand]

Well, now I can't find it. But someone had video of Peyton Manning faking a handoff to empty space and the ILB taking a step forward to fill against the run. It was an empty backfield. And I believe he has done this numerous times. Point is, you almost don't need to run or threaten to run, to make PA work. Its instinctual in Defenses to obsess about the run first. Its the first read for the ILBs normally.

I remember this! That's pretty funny. It's like ancestral, collective unconscious NFL memory!

[swede]

I remember this! That's pretty funny. It's like ancestral, collective unconscious NFL memory!

Clan of the '85 Bears

[Fritz]

Michael Salfino @MichaelSalfino
We had play action stats for a long time. You could at least see that there was no correlation between play action success and running efficiency. And it’s been obvious for decades that there is no correlation between running well and passing well, period.

Defenses REALLY want to stop the run, often to their detriment on 1st and 2nd down. As an example, I give you the phantom play action.

Well, now I can't find it. But someone had video of Peyton Manning faking a handoff to empty space and the ILB taking a step forward to fill against the run. It was an empty backfield. And I believe he has done this numerous times. Point is, you almost don't need to run or threaten to run, to make PA work. Its instinctual in Defenses to obsess about the run first. Its the first read for the ILBs normally.


My wife gets jealous when I make a pass at a picture of Drew Barrymore.

[swede]

My wife gets jealous when I make a pass at a picture of Drew Barrymore.

Stop taping it to the back of her head.

[mraynrand]

Stop taping it to the back of her head.

you're on a roll today

[bobblehead]

If I ran Stubby's offense, I would run 25% of the time in non-end of half/game scenarios. Play action pass 50%, shotgun pass 20%, shotgun run 5%.

Graham Barfield @GrahamBarfield
New #Titans OC Matt LaFleur has been attached to the two most play-action heavy teams in 2017 as LAR OC (29% of pass plays were PA) and in 2016 as ATL QB Coach (28%). Marcus Mariota led all QBs in YPA on play-action passes (11.1) in 2017, per PFF.

Russell Hudson @rhud1979
You have to run the rock (and run it well) well for play action to work, right?

Graham Barfield @GrahamBarfield
This is a common myth.
Play-action has little to do with success running the ball, and everything to do with deceiving the defense. Play-action was very effective for teams like SEA last year, who had zero consistency running. Balance is overrated.

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Can't agree more. Been saying this forever.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
We've written about this numerous times and have another guest column on the subject coming from @guga31bb after the Super Bowl.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
What matters is not how well you run. What matters is only that you run enough to make the deception of running believeable.

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Disagree slightly here. Per game theory, you only need the credible threat of running. PA would work just fine on the very first play of the season.

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
Right, PA would work fine on the first play of the season because there's an assumption that no team in the NFL runs 90% of the time. :)

And I'm not disagreeing. Part of the problem is we line up shotgun, semi empty backfield and rarely if ever run from that formation. You have to make the D believe that you might possibly run sometimes if the moon is out in broad daylight. Stubby does not like the run and everyone knows it. We don't run enough play action to fool anyone. Our RB line up to pass block and we don't run enough screens. End result is D pins the ears back and floods the zones. Could you imagine the success play action would have if we ran the ball like we did when Hundley was QB.

[bobblehead]

you at least need to have a back of some kind in the backfield to run play action. Duh. So a critical factor for the GBP is how often they go empty. Sorry, I have no numbers, but seems important for run game 'threat' and ability to fool the defense. But a always, the reason you pass all the time is because your guy/offense does it so well.

But...there is more to an offense than scoring. Keeping your D off the field rested and the other teams O off the field and out of rhythm is nice. And even if you pass well, if you give the threat of running when they sell out to stop the pass think of how much MORE effective it can be.

[bobblehead]

Michael Salfino @MichaelSalfino
We had play action stats for a long time. You could at least see that there was no correlation between play action success and running efficiency. And it’s been obvious for decades that there is no correlation between running well and passing well, period.

Defenses REALLY want to stop the run, often to their detriment on 1st and 2nd down. As an example, I give you the phantom play action.

Well, now I can't find it. But someone had video of Peyton Manning faking a handoff to empty space and the ILB taking a step forward to fill against the run. It was an empty backfield. And I believe he has done this numerous times. Point is, you almost don't need to run or threaten to run, to make PA work. Its instinctual in Defenses to obsess about the run first. Its the first read for the ILBs normally.

And again, that is my point. I'm not just whining that we don't run well, I'm whining that we don't even TRY to run too often.

[mraynrand]

But...there is more to an offense than scoring. Keeping your D off the field rested and the other teams O off the field and out of rhythm is nice. And even if you pass well, if you give the threat of running when they sell out to stop the pass think of how much MORE effective it can be.

Of course, there are offenses that use the pass as effectively as a run to work the clock. The Packers put the ball in Rodgers' hands because he's that good. Unless the line is total crap, and the defense either is good enough to generate instant pass rush, on average, having Rodgers pass the ball is a better choice than handing it off. Especially when you draft linemen to pass pro. The run is a change of pace, a way to keep the defense honest. You run just enough so that the defense has to be honest.

There are a few games I recall where Packer opponents basically keyed on pass defense and destroyed the Packers. But those defenses (Giants, Arizona, Seattle) could reasonably defense the run without keying on it at all.

[pbmax]

http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Mike-Daniels-absolutely-loves-the-Packers-Mike-Pettine-hire-472170413.html


Here's what he said during his chat with Dave:

MIKE PETTINE

"I love him. I absolutely love him. He's a really angry, no BS Jersey dude. He's going to hurt some people's feelings. and we need that. I'm excited to get to work with him. And he's excited. He's going to get after you.

"I met with him. We talked. He's definitely the kind of guy that we want, the kind of guy that we need. I'm going to say he's going to do really great things for us. And he already is. I'm excited. I can't wait to go back.

"We've always had the pieces, and now he's ready to put them together. He just has the attitude we've been missing. We've been missing it. He has it. He's ready to bring it out. He told me that himself. It's going to be an interesting film room with him. He's not afraid of holding guys accountable. And if you want to debate if you had a good play or not, he'll go right to the tape."

[pbmax]

Sometimes I forget that McCarthy likes to hire people who remind him of himself. Or perhaps more accurately, people who he feels like he knows already.


Pennsylvania roots

A native of Doylestown, Pa., Pettine got his start in coaching as a graduate assistant at the University of Pittsburgh in 1993-94 before serving as the head coach at North Penn High School Towamencin Township, Pa., and William Tennent High School in Warminster, Pa.



Read more: http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-daily-news-story/article-1/What-to-know-about-Mike-Pettine/c53b9654-c040-48c0-aed2-821efdf854f0#ixzz5AlYq8jiC

[KYPack]

Stop taping it to the back of her head.

Wouldn't that be the top of her head?

[Fritz]

Or her forehead. Depends on the position. Kinda like deciding where to play Clay Matthews.

[Joemailman]

Pettine places emphasis on inside pass rush. This goes back to his days as jets DC.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/06/01/packers-prioritizing-interior-pass-rush-under-mike-pettine/


The Packers new defensive coordinator places a premium on rushing the passer from the inside.

“That’s where it starts. It starts up front. People talk about the exterior pass rush, I think the interior pass rush is as important or maybe potentially more important,” Pettine said Thursday. “If you can be dominant inside, I think that has a ripple effect throughout your defense.”

The idea stems from improvements made by offenses in terms of taking away edge pass-rush. Teams can always chip an edge rusher, assign double teams or slide protection one way or another, but a strong rusher from the inside is harder to take away. Almost always, at least one interior rusher will face a single blocker.

“It’s much easier to negate an edge pass rusher than it is an inside dominant guy. You can force offenses to block them one-on-one,” Pettine said. “Offenses have gotten very good at negating edge rushers.”

Pettine’s prioritization of the inside pass-rush was born out of years of working under Rex Ryan, who consistently used top draft picks on interior disruptors. The goal for any pass-rush is always to collapse the pocket around the quarterback, creating disrupted throwing lanes and throwing platforms. While edge rushers can turn the corner and disrupt quarterbacks, the quickest way to a collapsed pocket is right up the middle.

“It’s something I learned from Rex a long time ago,” Pettine said. “You have to have guys winning inside. Even if you have great edge rushers, great speed rush, if the pocket’s not collapsed, it’s a clean pocket to step up into. It’s paramount that you have guys that can win inside.”

[Maxie the Taxi]

Pettine places emphasis on inside pass rush. This goes back to his days as jets DC.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/06/01/packers-prioritizing-interior-pass-rush-under-mike-pettine/My kind of guy! It's why I think they wanted to draft Da'Ron Payne or Vita Vea.

[texaspackerbacker]

We've got some horses to carry out that inside pass rush. Hopefully it will happen. I've seen Aaron Rodgers roll out and away from an inside pass rush so many times, though, that I have some doubts about the effectiveness. Of course, not every team as a mobile QB, and nobody else has Aaron Rodgers.

[The Shadow]

Rodgers, if he stays healthy, will put a lot of points on the board. If the Pack can, after all these years, just field an average defense, great things are possible.

[woodbuck27]

Pettine places emphasis on inside pass rush. This goes back to his days as jets DC.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/06/01/packers-prioritizing-interior-pass-rush-under-mike-pettine/

Here's what we could have had:

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/6/2/17420086/buffalo-bills-defensive-coordinator-leslie-frazier-first-round-pick-tremaine-edmunds-2018-nfl-draft

Buffalo Bills’ defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier is enamored by first-round pick Tremaine Edmunds

He was given a comparison similar to Tre’Davious White

By: Dylan Zadonowicz@DylanZadonowicz Jun 2, 2018, 9:00am EDT

[bobblehead]

Pettine places emphasis on inside pass rush. This goes back to his days as jets DC.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/06/01/packers-prioritizing-interior-pass-rush-under-mike-pettine/

TT left them in good shape on this with Clark and Daniels. Addition of Wilkerson completes the package.

I think we are going to learn real fast that Dom was the problem not TT. Of course having Jackson slip to us in the second helped a lot. Possibly best value pick of first 2 rounds.

[pbmax]

Here's what we could have had:

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/6/2/17420086/buffalo-bills-defensive-coordinator-leslie-frazier-first-round-pick-tremaine-edmunds-2018-nfl-draft

Buffalo Bills’ defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier is enamored by first-round pick Tremaine Edmunds

He was given a comparison similar to Tre’Davious White

By: Dylan Zadonowicz@DylanZadonowicz Jun 2, 2018, 9:00am EDT


Has Tremaine Edmunds picked off Aaron Rodgers yet?

[woodbuck27]

TT left them in good shape on this with Clark and Daniels. Addition of Wilkerson completes the package.

I think we are going to learn real fast that Dom was the problem not TT. Of course having Jackson slip to us in the second helped a lot. Possibly best value pick of first 2 rounds.

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/prospects

If The Packers stay at NO. 14 they get 'the absolute BEST Value Pick' in the DRAFT and grab a need The Packers have had for a long time and 'a STAR Impact Player and Defensive Captain for a decade' in the NO. 4 Ranked Overall Graded Prospect - Tremaine Edmunds- ILB - VIRGINIA TECH - GRADE 7.17 - (Typ. NFL.COM Grades) who actually went Rnd 1, Pick 16 to the Buffalo Bills.

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/prospects/allPositions?college=allColleges&page=2&status=ALL

Getting CB - Josh Jackson - IOWA and Graded at 6.00 at what Pick No. 44 was good value as he was the NO. 24th Ranked Prospect in this 2018 NFL DRAFT.

Note: CB Jaire Alexander - Louisville was Graded at 6.03 and the NO. 24th Ranked Prospect in the DRAFT and was picked by Green Bay in Rd. 1 Pick NO. 18.

[pbmax]

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/prospects

If The Packers stay at NO. 14 they get 'the absolute BEST Value Pick' in the DRAFT and grab a need The Packers have had for a long time and 'a STAR Impact Player and Defensive Captain for a decade' in the NO. 4 Ranked Overall Graded Prospect - Tremaine Edmunds- ILB - VIRGINIA TECH - GRADE 7.17 - (Typ. NFL.COM Grades) who actually went Rnd 1, Pick 16 to the Buffalo Bills.

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/prospects/allPositions?college=allColleges&page=2&status=ALL

Getting CB - Josh Jackson - IOWA and Graded at 6.00 at what Pick No. 44 was good value as he was the NO. 24th Ranked Prospect in this 2018 NFL DRAFT.

Note: CB Jaire Alexander - Louisville was Graded at 6.03 and the NO. 24th Ranked Prospect in the DRAFT and was picked by Green Bay in Rd. 1 Pick NO. 18.

Interceptions of Aaron Rodgers:

Jaire Alexander = 1
Tremaine Edmunds = 0

Who cares what their college careers amounted to. Alexander off to much better pro start.

[NewsBruin]

In terms of things that sound great as cliches, but aren't always great in reality, I worry about interior pass rush as our calling card if the second level is unaware and doesn't adjust to cover running lanes.

Trubisky is young and possibly has some mobility not pounded out of him yet. I don't consider Stafford or Cousins to be dual threats, so that's nice. I hate the highlights when contain is lost, along with the pocket, and a QB takes it for a first down. However, it is nice to see a big ugly wrap up a QB with a pelvis-to-pelvis bear hug.

[ThunderDan]

I am guessing that Tony Mandarich was graded much higher than Tremaine Edwards. A can't miss pick by the Packers, that we all know how it turned out.

[woodbuck27]

Has Tremaine Edmunds picked off Aaron Rodgers yet?

Specifically pbmax, what's your point and this Post?

Why as it is (and we don't know how any 2018 Prospect will make out and their leap from College Football to the NFL) is it the style here by many, to deride any prospect not a Packer?

Tremaine Edmunds is 'an extraordinary Prospect by all Reports', and based on a grade of 7.17 was drafted to be a Special Talent in the NFL by the Buffalo.

Only three Prospects in the 2018 DRAFT were graded higher than LBer Tremaine Edmunds and so far the Reports on him out of the Buffalo Bills OTA'a are extremely positive:

RB Saquon Barkley - PENN ST. Rnd 1, Pick 2 - New York Giants - Grade 7.45

Guard Quenton Nelson - NOTRE DAME Rnd 1, Pick 6 - Indianapolis Colts - Grade 7.34

DE Bradley Chubb - N.C. STATE - Rnd 1, Pick 5 - Denver Broncos - Grade 7.32

What is on record now and our new DC Mike Pettine who has clearly stated that he wants his Pass Rush to come from the inside rather than the EDGE. Even Mathematically Pettine makes sense. The shortest distance between two Points now comes into view and a Pass Rush. i

Let's look at this in simple terms or view it and a Triangle:

A triangle where the apexis represented by 'the Target'of the Pass Rush or the opposition's QB. The left and right hand points or the extreme points of the Defensive Base of the Triangle are two EDGE Rushers positioned off the LOS and Left and Right Tackles or more skilled OLman than the Guards.

Now look at the Inside Lber position and the Straight line Principle.

That ILber is closer to 'the Target or QB' than the two or one EDGE Rusher (s) out on the Base of the Triangle. The ILber has a shorter straight line to the Target as supported by what Packer DC Mike Pettine is describing as his preferred Pass Rush Scheme.

Imagine the Packer 'D' and a RARE talent like LB (ILB) Tremaine Edmunds and in the middle of that Baseline Packer Triangular 'D" and Pass Rush scheme and first down or 3rd and long.

How can you possibly with all your Football Technical knowledge; not wish the Packers hadn't drafted ILB Tremaine Edmunds GRADE 7.17, over a CB Jaire Alexander Graded at 6.03?

You know this pbmax:

There's 'a basic Rule' of Drafting Regimen. Basically and it's 'of course' not written in stone:

You Draft inside out and front to back.

When you see the chance of a Tremaine Edmunds with his outstanding Top Five Draft Grade of 7.17 possibly falling to you.

You don't trade all the way back from NO. 14 to New Orleans at what? NO. 27, (that in all likelihood) will return a late First Round Pick in the 2019 Draft.

The New Orleans Saints are a solid or Vegas Favourite to make the Playoffs this Season.

Toss away an opportunity for that Top Five Draft Tallent (Tremaine Edmunds or Derwin James) . Then panic and move all the way back to Pick NO. 18 and draft what they did, and in that process trade your Third Round Pick in the2018 Draft.

Rather:

You sit at NO. 14 and look for the likes of 'a Tremaine Edmunds' (Grade - SEVEN POINT SEVENTEEN) or Safety Derwin James ( Prospect Grade - 6.44) and Ranked as the Ninth Best Prospect by Grade, to 'fall to you'.

The Packers would have absolutely killed this Draft with at NO. 14 Drafting ILB Tremaine Edmunds and supporting perfectly Mike Pettine's needs and his Pass Rush Schemes; and exactly as they did; 'luck out' with a great Value Pick at Rd. 2 NO. 44 and snapping CB Joshua Jackson.

[run pMc]

IIRC last year Josh Jones was flying all over making plays like a stud in helmets and shorts.
I've learned not to get caught up in camp hype. GB's coaches are raving about Kizer and McCray, for heaven's sake.

When it gets to live action I think Edwards be a good player but it will take him some time. Probably a season or two to get the hang of it.

Love the snark re: ARod INT's, BTW.

[Joemailman]

Mike Mayock had Edmunds #11 and Alexander #12 on his big board.

[pbmax]

Specifically pbmax, what's your point and this Post?

How can you possibly with all your Football Technical knowledge; not wish the Packers hadn't drafted ILB Tremaine Edmunds GRADE 7.17, over a CB Jaire Alexander Graded at 6.03?



I doubt you will address this because you have failed to respond before, but here is the crux of my argument over your point above.

The draft grades you cite above are:

1. Anonymous (can you tell me who did the scouting and evaluating at NFL.com?)
2. Contain unwarranted precision. NFL grades are often on an eight point scale. Two decimal points makes it look precise, but its just an average.
3. An average: And we don't know how many numbers are averaged. The more evaluators, especially if we know their track record, the more reliable this number would be.
4. On an unknown scale of magnitude. We have no information about how certain a 1.14 grade differential makes in the prospects chances to perform at a high level. Is this the difference between mid first and high second round?
5. Need. You say that Edmunds was the perfect fit for Pettine. Packers needs were OLB and CB. Explain the better fit here.

[Zool]

IIRC last year Josh Jones was flying all over making plays like a stud in helmets and shorts.
I've learned not to get caught up in camp hype. GB's coaches are raving about Kizer and McCray, for heaven's sake.

When it gets to live action I think Edwards be a good player but it will take him some time. Probably a season or two to get the hang of it.

Love the snark re: ARod INT's, BTW.

Yes but what was Jones' draft rating in 2017?

[run pMc]

Yes but what was Jones' draft rating in 2017?

I think it was 1.21 jigawatts or something like that.

[Deputy Nutz]

The Packers have 25 million wrapped up in outside linebackers that offered very little production in 2017. The Packers have to figure out how to get production from Matthews and Perry for this defense to be productive in 2018.

It's nice to expect inside pressure, and with Daniels and Clark the Packers have two horses that can apply pressure from the interior, both can win one on one matchups, but without outside pass rush those guys will be double teamed and nullified. To create pressure it comes from scheme and having the right players that can be productive. At the end of the day it is a chess game because the Packers do not have a dominant pass rusher on the field.

[woodbuck27]

I doubt you will address this because you have failed to respond before, but here is the crux of my argument over your point above.

The draft grades you cite above are:

1. Anonymous (can you tell me who did the scouting and evaluating at NFL.com?)
2. Contain unwarranted precision. NFL grades are often on an eight point scale. Two decimal points makes it look precise, but its just an average.
3. An average: And we don't know how many numbers are averaged. The more evaluators, especially if we know their track record, the more reliable this number would be.
4. On an unknown scale of magnitude. We have no information about how certain a 1.14 grade differential makes in the prospects chances to perform at a high level. Is this the difference between mid first and high second round?
5. Need. You say that Edmunds was the perfect fit for Pettine. Packers needs were OLB and CB. Explain the better fit here.


While I think about a rebut to your Post above I'll leave you pbmax with this :

A.) http://www.nfl.com/news/author?id=0ap3000000458453

B.)http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920140/article/zierlein-mock-draft-20-browns-pick-barkley-first-trade-up-for-qb

C.) and also this: :bang:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDXa4FkAw-4

[mraynrand]

Let's look at this in simple terms or view it and a Triangle:

A triangle where the apexis represented by 'the Target'of the Pass Rush or the opposition's QB. The left and right hand points or the extreme points of the Defensive Base of the Triangle are two EDGE Rushers positioned off the LOS and Left and Right Tackles or more skilled OLman than the Guards.

Whoa professor, you're moving a bit fast for me. Is this an isosceles, equilateral, or right triangle? Are you sneaking in non-Euclidean geometry where two pass rushers go upfield in exact parallel lines, but still meet at the QB? What if a triangle is the wrong model and a heptagon is correct with the other five points being four defensive backs and an inside LB? What kind of trigonometry will the Packers have to employ when most of their salary cap goes to an over-the-hill Clay Matthews who TOTALLY disrupts the unit circle?

[George Cumby]

Yes, but is the cat dead, alive or both at the same time?

[The Shadow]

I have high hopes for a Pettine defense.

[run pMc]

A triangle where the apexis represented by 'the Target'of the Pass Rush or the opposition's QB.

Woody, sometimes I can't tell if you're insane or just trolling. It's awe-inspiring. Don't ever change.

Also, I had to Google apexis. Took me to a World of Warcraft page.

[run pMc]

I have high hopes for a Pettine defense.

I think the defense will be improved. If nothing else, chewing out players for being sloppy and holding them accountable should help. I think a defense gravitates to a more aggressive personality, and Capers got stale.
I also like the alleged focus on communication and simplicity. We'll see. The proof will be when the pads (and the lights) go on.

[Smidgeon]

Woody, sometimes I can't tell if you're insane or just trolling. It's awe-inspiring. Don't ever change.

Also, I had to Google apexis. Took me to a World of Warcraft page.

I hated those crystals.

[Joemailman]

Earlier this year Pettine said, "If the other team knows what defense you're in pre-snap, you're in trouble". That alone suggests that the Packers defense this year will force opposing offenses into tougher decisions than was the case last year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

If he can just get the defense to above average, it will be a great season. I personally think he'll do better than that.

[Joemailman]

I have high hopes for a Pettine defense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsrEsz7H5ZE

[pbmax]

Woody, sometimes I can't tell if you're insane or just trolling. It's awe-inspiring. Don't ever change.

Also, I had to Google apexis. Took me to a World of Warcraft page.

So how is the new campaign going?


EDITED: to remove stupidity

[The Shadow]

If he can just get the defense to above average, it will be a great season. I personally think he'll do better than that.

Me, too.

[The Shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsrEsz7H5ZE

Sinatra has a kind of Ed Grimsley hair thing going there.

[Joemailman]

You do have an eye for such things, I must say.

[bobblehead]

I doubt you will address this because you have failed to respond before, but here is the crux of my argument over your point above.

The draft grades you cite above are:

1. Anonymous (can you tell me who did the scouting and evaluating at NFL.com?)
2. Contain unwarranted precision. NFL grades are often on an eight point scale. Two decimal points makes it look precise, but its just an average.
3. An average: And we don't know how many numbers are averaged. The more evaluators, especially if we know their track record, the more reliable this number would be.
4. On an unknown scale of magnitude. We have no information about how certain a 1.14 grade differential makes in the prospects chances to perform at a high level. Is this the difference between mid first and high second round?
5. Need. You say that Edmunds was the perfect fit for Pettine. Packers needs were OLB and CB. Explain the better fit here.

Careful. Michael Bennett might kick ur ass.

[bobblehead]

I hated those crystals.

My Mage is still impaled somewhere on one of them

[pbmax]

We really are a bunch of geeky, suburban middle schoolers, aren't we?

[Deputy Nutz]

Earlier this year Pettine said, "If the other team knows what defense you're in pre-snap, you're in trouble". That alone suggests that the Packers defense this year will force opposing offenses into tougher decisions than was the case last year.


At the same time it helps when your defenders know what defense they are in. The offense may know the defense, but you don't have a chance if your corners think you are in cover two and the safeties think you are in 2 read. That happened multiple times last season, and the breakdowns usually led to huge plays against the Packers' defense.

[George Cumby]

My Mage is still impaled somewhere on one of them

I really miss Diablo II.

[Zool]

I really miss Diablo II.

New Diablo project announced today

[bobblehead]

New Diablo project announced today

Awesome. Now I can waste another few months of my life working through an addiction.

[Upnorth]

This suprised me, and implies that our pass rush is was worse than I remembered...
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

Good luck Pettine!

Sorry to get off topic. Diablo was freakin awesome and highly addictive. But no game made me loose more time for less reward than sid mierers civilization 1-3...

[George Cumby]

Try World of Tanks Blitz. FML.

[Smidgeon]

This suprised me, and implies that our pass rush is was worse than I remembered...
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

Good luck Pettine!

Sorry to get off topic. Diablo was freakin awesome and highly addictive. But no game made me loose more time for less reward than sid mierers civilization 1-3...

SimCity

[NewsBruin]

Earlier this year Pettine said, "If the other team knows what defense you're in pre-snap, you're in trouble". That alone suggests that the Packers defense this year will force opposing offenses into tougher decisions than was the case last year.

Right, but we did all the "amoeba"-ing under Capers - Yon Zone Blitzemonger. It's nice to have a theory, but we have to teach it effectively to personnel appropriate for the formation, who can apply it to offensive changes in real time.

Confession: I don't really know our D-personnel that well, so I don't know if we've got the horses or the teachers for what they want. But you can never lose in the summer by talking big.

[run pMc]

This suprised me, and implies that our pass rush is was worse than I remembered...
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

Good luck Pettine!

Sorry to get off topic. Diablo was freakin awesome and highly addictive. But no game made me loose more time for less reward than sid mierers civilization 1-3...

The chart on that page shows GB and MIN at the same number. So what made one defense so much better? Non-pressure sacks seem like a stat that, which probably useful, could easily mislead.

[ThunderDan]

Right, but we did all the "amoeba"-ing under Capers - Yon Zone Blitzemonger. It's nice to have a theory, but we have to teach it effectively to personnel appropriate for the formation, who can apply it to offensive changes in real time.

Confession: I don't really know our D-personnel that well, so I don't know if we've got the horses or the teachers for what they want. But you can never lose in the summer by talking big.

Personally, I think we went away from the zone blitz the last couple of years. We went to the 3-4 over, and the rush was always the same 4 players. Clay, Daniels, T-Rex and Perry when healthy. It was always the same four. There was very little line 7 guys up near the line in your 3-4 and you had no idea which 3, 4, or 5 were coming.

[Guiness]

This suprised me, and implies that our pass rush is was worse than I remembered...
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

Good luck Pettine!

Sorry to get off topic. Diablo was freakin awesome and highly addictive. But no game made me loose more time for less reward than sid mierers civilization 1-3...

The original Civ I - and it's cousin, Masters of Orion. I still play the later.

[pbmax]

Personally, I think we went away from the zone blitz the last couple of years. We went to the 3-4 over, and the rush was always the same 4 players. Clay, Daniels, T-Rex and Perry when healthy. It was always the same four. There was very little line 7 guys up near the line in your 3-4 and you had no idea which 3, 4, or 5 were coming.

Double A-gap blitz was the preference. Or slot blitz.

[Smidgeon]

The original Civ I - and it's cousin, Masters of Orion. I still play the later.

Forgot that one. I put way too many hours into Master of Orion 1 and 2. Those were my halcyon days of video games.

[George Cumby]

Diablo II on mobile would be a dream.

Medieval Total War on mobile would be a wet dream.

[Joemailman]

Stone Cold Mike Pettine?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTN8SNfXUAE-LgN?format=jpg&name=small