Brian Gutekunst, Making No Sense

[pbmax]

Not off to a terrific start here, as he makes a hash of the numbers he is being given. If he was Wolf, he would have ignored numbers entirely, told a Madden story about how a chicken on a practice field helped them discover Cliff Branch and gave them a play idea. Then he would close with speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys.

For the record, the Sportsradar stuff is game numbers, not 40 times, Brian. And I suspect that the slowness is most attributable to the Packers favorite route being an 8 yard stop and turnaround, looking for directions from the QB.


Using data from Sportradar, which gathers information from computer chips in the players' shoulder pads, the article found the Packers’ pass catchers to be the slowest in the NFL last season. The average speed of their receivers was 11.74 mph, more than two-tenths of a second slower than the Oakland Raiders, who ranked 31st, and 1.58 seconds behind the league-leading Los Angeles Rams.

“To be honest with you, I didn’t see it,” general manager Brian Gutekunst said of the study. “It doesn’t bother me. I think we always want to get faster, but I’m not too concerned with what outside sources have to say about our group. I know there’s really good football players in that group, guys that have done a lot of good things in this league. I think speed is important, it’s a very important part of the game. At the same time, being a well-rounded football player is (just) as important.

“People obviously make a big deal about the (40-yard dash) time. The 40 time is really to kind of confirm what you see on film. And if there’s a difference between the 40 time and what you saw on film, then you just go back to the tape and try to figure it out. I think people put too much stock into that 40 time.”

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/25/speedy-lsu-wide-receiver-dj-chark-could-tempt-plodding-packers/1065776001/

[pbmax]

As for the subject of that report, it sounds like they should sign DJ Chark's cousins, who are all faster than he is.


Chark first recognized his gift of speed around the age of 6, when he would race his older cousins around the yard. He never beat them, which made Chark fume as he returned home, but the difference in age offered context that foretold of his athletic success.

“My parents used to say I would get mad when I lost and I used to just go out and just run back and forth trying to redeem myself,” Chark said. “I think that’s when I realized I had pretty good speed.”

[mraynrand]

Not worried. I think you're reading too much into that. BG wasn't confusing 40 times with the sportrac crap. He was making some broad statement about 40 times. Translates roughly to your "speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys."

Anyway, the role of 'reporters' now is not to report, but to generate controversy. Beware.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Not worried. I think you're reading too much into that. BG wasn't confusing 40 times with the sportrac crap. He was making some broad statement about 40 times. Translates roughly to your "speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys."

Anyway, the role of 'reporters' now is not to report, but to generate controversy. Beware.

Agreed. Also, he could be all about getting speed guys, but it would do no good to show his hand ahead of the draft. The proof will be in who he drafts.

[mraynrand]

Agreed. Also, he could be all about getting speed guys, but it would do no good to show his hand ahead of the draft. The proof will be in who he drafts.

Right. And BG trained at the feet of the master, so it's unlikely that he'll stray too far.

TT has always had tension picking guys with athletic skills over football knack. When you draft at the end of rounds, you have to find 'unconventional' ways to pick Pro Bowl level guys. One method is to bring in raw athletes (Shields) and another is to pick young guys and expect they'll mature (Clark). You have to get a reasonable number of these guys right, or you'll never replenish your roster, but I suspect the bust rate is higher. The other guys who have 'good measurables' won't fall to you and the guys who 'look solid' will have a lower ceiling.

[3irty1]

The average speed your WR's moved over the course of the season is a pretty worthless stat. How fast your WR's can run is one tiny component lumped in with things like: How much press coverage does your team face? How much of their yards come after contact? How many direction changes were in the routes they ran?

[pbmax]

The average speed your WR's moved over the course of the season is a pretty worthless stat. How fast your WR's can run is one tiny component lumped in with things like: How much press coverage does your team face? How much of their yards come after contact? How many direction changes were in the routes they ran?

I have to go look at what's available on the methodology. For some of that (routes) they could make adjustments. The speed numbers could be an average of their top speeds during the game. Not the entire distance by time they ran.

[pbmax]

Agreed. Also, he could be all about getting speed guys, but it would do no good to show his hand ahead of the draft. The proof will be in who he drafts.


Not worried. I think you're reading too much into that. BG wasn't confusing 40 times with the sportrac crap. He was making some broad statement about 40 times. Translates roughly to your "speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys."

Anyway, the role of 'reporters' now is not to report, but to generate controversy. Beware.

Someone has to be the 10th Man.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcNK7M2eCI4

[mraynrand]

Someone has to be the 10th Man.

good call. Already too many zombies on the roster.

[Cobra Kai]

Agreed. Also, he could be all about getting speed guys, but it would do no good to show his hand ahead of the draft. The proof will be in who he drafts.

The proof is actually in the pudding.

[denverYooper]

good call. Already too many zombies on the roster.

They could at least bring in more zombies from 28 Days Later.

[mraynrand]

They could at least bring in more zombies from 28 Days Later.

See, that's the problem with the new CBA - it used to be you had 28 weeks to train new zombies. Those zombies are more ferocious pass-rushers.

[George Cumby]

Fast zombies are wrong. Zombies are slow, plodding and as inexorable as your own mortality.

Fast zombies pander to the vapid, adhd, instant gratification mindset of millennials and the iGeneration.

Just say ‘No’ to fast zombies.

[bobblehead]

Not off to a terrific start here, as he makes a hash of the numbers he is being given. If he was Wolf, he would have ignored numbers entirely, told a Madden story about how a chicken on a practice field helped them discover Cliff Branch and gave them a play idea. Then he would close with speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys.

For the record, the Sportsradar stuff is game numbers, not 40 times, Brian. And I suspect that the slowness is most attributable to the Packers favorite route being an 8 yard stop and turnaround, looking for directions from the QB.



http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/25/speedy-lsu-wide-receiver-dj-chark-could-tempt-plodding-packers/1065776001/

My take away was that MM sucks as a coach. We have 2 speed demons but he insists on playing slow plodding old receivers.

[bobblehead]

The average speed your WR's moved over the course of the season is a pretty worthless stat. How fast your WR's can run is one tiny component lumped in with things like: How much press coverage does your team face? How much of their yards come after contact? How many direction changes were in the routes they ran?
How much time was spent "fading" along the zone while ARod scrambled?

[texaspackerbacker]

My take away was that MM sucks as a coach. We have 2 speed demons but he insists on playing slow plodding old receivers.

Excellent Point! - get Janis and Davis on the field, on offense.

Excellent Point also in your other post - that "fading" due to Rodgers scrambling, of course, puts the blame squarely on the O Line.

[mraynrand]

Excellent Point! - get Janis and Davis on the field, on offense. .

My prediction is that Janis will never be more than a 10-20 catch/year WR. Davis still has a shot, but his window is closing.

[Pugger]

The average speed your WR's moved over the course of the season is a pretty worthless stat. How fast your WR's can run is one tiny component lumped in with things like: How much press coverage does your team face? How much of their yards come after contact? How many direction changes were in the routes they ran?

If just straight speed was the be all and end all Janis would be an All-Pro WR.

[Vincenzo]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with looking at the overall team speed as a problem.
However speed is just one factor to consider here. When defending for example, body positioning and where the defenders eyes are focussed would be a higher priority in my opinion.
In the AFC Championship game Stephon Gilmore made perhaps the play of the game when he reached out and swatted the ball away.
Point is that speed often has very little to do with the majority of plays on the field.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

My prediction is that Janis will never be more than a 10-20 catch/year WR. Davis still has a shot, but his window is closing.

My prediction is Janis will never be given a chance to see what he can do, isn't his contract up this year? My guess is he goes to another team. Davis, meh...

[ThunderDan]

My prediction is Janis will never be given a chance to see what he can do, isn't his contract up this year? My guess is he goes to another team. Davis, meh...

I love posts like this. MM will never give Janis a shot because he hates him or some other reason. Coach and GMs and the whole staff gets judged on wins and loses. The staff is going to use every option at their disposal to win. If a player isn’t getting playing time it isn’t because the team won’t give him a chance.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Did I read this right: The Raiders' receiving crop was the 2nd slowest in the NFL in 2017? If there's an afterlife, Al Davis must be shaking his head and shouting the f-word angrily.

Speed is awesome in real life and definitely on Madden. The Packers do need to get faster at the WR position. The German Shepard can start by re-signing Janis. While pass catchers like Jennings, James Jones, Driver and Nelson played well with only average speed via precise route running, having a receiver with great speed would allow the Packer offense to bomb defenses into the abyss.

[texaspackerbacker]

Amazing how some posters never miss an opportunity to piss on Janis.

I doubt McCarthy hates him hahahaha. He may very well hate the idea of giving playing time to younger players at some positions over other players. There also really seems to be something to this preference for slower receivers thing. Of course, ability to get open and catch the ball is important too, right there with speed. Janis (and Davis) have caught it as well as anybody, and route running is pretty much a learned skill - so it's on the coaches if they haven't improved as much as young guys from other teams.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Amazing how some posters never miss an opportunity to piss on Janis.

I doubt McCarthy hates him hahahaha. He may very well hate the idea of giving playing time to younger players at some positions over other players. There also really seems to be something to this preference for slower receivers thing. Of course, ability to get open and catch the ball is important too, right there with speed. Janis (and Davis) have caught it as well as anybody, and route running is pretty much a learned skill - so it's on the coaches if they haven't improved as much as young guys from other teams.

Thunderdan misinterpreted me, I don't believe the Packers hate Janis, but I do believe young receivers need playing time to get better. I also believe Janis' window of opportunity with the packers closed quite awhile ago.

[mraynrand]

Amazing how some posters never miss an opportunity to piss on Janis.

I doubt McCarthy hates him hahahaha. He may very well hate the idea of giving playing time to younger players at some positions over other players.

This is a dumb take too. Stubby gave plenty of time to Jennings and Jones when they were young. Finley, Cobb, and Monty as well. Why? Because they had talent and knew what they were doing. Isn't it obvious that Janis doesn't cut it? Maybe the guy is good for a few patterns, but the lack of trustworthiness (and this comes from Rodgers, not Stubby) was a huge detriment. You can't play with a guy who doesn't do the right thing on almost every play.

[Zool]

Janice shines in garbage time. If the Packers just get down 21 every game, Janice will be an all pro.

[Bossman641]

Was this past season year 3 of waiting for Janis to blossom? Spoiler alert for 2018: its not happening.

[George Cumby]

Was this past season year 3 of waiting for Janis to blossom? Spoiler alert for 2018: its not happening.

IKR?

If the light bulb hasn’t gone on by now, it ain’t gonna.

[texaspackerbacker]

Like I said ....... dumbasses never missing an opportunity to piss on Janis.

[Zool]

Thankfully we have Tex at each Packers practice to see Janice in all his amazing glory.

[bobblehead]

I love posts like this. MM will never give Janis a shot because he hates him or some other reason. Coach and GMs and the whole staff gets judged on wins and loses. The staff is going to use every option at their disposal to win. If a player isn’t getting playing time it isn’t because the team won’t give him a chance.

In general I agree with you, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a coach simply has a bias that causes him to miss things. Jerrah likes him some really dumb physical freaks. Al Davis loved him some fast guys with no hands or route running ability. MM hates guys who make occasional mental mistakes even if they flash big plays. MM refused to use Desmond Bishop until he was forced to. Desmond was a difference maker on that D.

I can't say that janis or davis will be worth a shit, but I can say that MM is biased towards boring assignment sure guys who don't have the physical ability to change games.

[pbmax]

In general I agree with you, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a coach simply has a bias that causes him to miss things. Jerrah likes him some really dumb physical freaks. Al Davis loved him some fast guys with no hands or route running ability. MM hates guys who make occasional mental mistakes even if they flash big plays. MM refused to use Desmond Bishop until he was forced to. Desmond was a difference maker on that D.

I can't say that janis or davis will be worth a shit, but I can say that MM is biased towards boring assignment sure guys who don't have the physical ability to change games.

That is the Marty training in him.

But you can carry the above preferences too far in analyzing any of those coaches on GMs. Davis loved speed, but he would always take speed with hands if he could get it. As he got older he lost his fastball and took some possibly unwarranted risks.

I don't know much about Jerry's adventures, except that his son seems to have had a solid influence.

McCarthy might have hesitated to play Bishop, but Bishop wasn't a cure all either. M3 has a preference but he's not into harming himself.

[Joemailman]

That is the Marty training in him.




In the case of Janis and Davis, how much of that is on Rodgers? It's no secret Rodgers is pretty demanding about routes being run right. Does MM not want them in the lineup, or does he figure there's no point in putting guys in who Rodgers won't throw to?

[Fritz]

Like I said ....... dumbasses never missing an opportunity to piss on Janis.

If Janis is one of those people who likes getting peed on, then I guess it's okay. To each his own.

[mraynrand]

If Janis is one of those people who likes getting peed on, then I guess it's okay. To each his own.

lol

[pbmax]

In the case of Janis and Davis, how much of that is on Rodgers? It's no secret Rodgers is pretty demanding about routes being run right. Does MM not want them in the lineup, or does he figure there's no point in putting guys in who Rodgers won't throw to?

Could be. But if 4 other receivers can figure out the balance between the offense and Rodgers, then Janis should be able to.

[Joemailman]

Could be. But if 4 other receivers can figure out the balance between the offense and Rodgers, then Janis should be able to.

No doubt Janis is more prone to mental errors than the others. Yet, a few years ago when MM had no choice but to play him in the playoff game at Arizona, he had 7 catches for 145 yards and 2 TD's. He does have some unique skills. I wonder if Philbin might have some ideas about how to get him involved in the offense.

[Teamcheez1]

Janis is an Unrestricted Free Agent . Who's to say they even bring him back at the minimum, or otherwise? I guess we'll find out.

[Bossman641]

Janis is good at "500" ball. That kinda style doesn't work within s structured offense.

[Joemailman]

Janis is good at "500" ball. That kinda style doesn't work within s structured offense.

Is the Packers offense that structured? A lot of times their plays seem to be Rodgers buying time until somebody breaks open. I realize Janis is limited. Still, it seems strange that a guy who had the biggest day for a Packers WR in a playoff game in recent years has had a total of 12 catches since then.

[pbmax]

No doubt Janis is more prone to mental errors than the others. Yet, a few years ago when MM had no choice but to play him in the playoff game at Arizona, he had 7 catches for 145 yards and 2 TD's. He does have some unique skills. I wonder if Philbin might have some ideas about how to get him involved in the offense.

You have to almost run the offense through him, which they had to do that game due to injury. Because he is not going to be at his assigned spot at the right time, you have to watch what he does and wait for him to break open.

It would be the Rodgers extra inning offense from the snap. Hard to get others involved too.

He's the perfect receiver for Tebow though.

[Carolina_Packer]

With A-Rod getting injured for a good chunk of two separate seasons, and being 34, I have to wonder if they will try and alter the approach to the scramble drill. They have to try to keep him out of harms way. I know comparisons are often worthless, but Brady often seems like he could make and eat a sandwich in the pocket before having to throw the ball. The rest of the time, he gets the ball out of his hand quickly before the rush can even factor into the play.

Back in 2015 when the offense was struggling without Jordy, I read an article that pointed out the Packers route tree was based on isolation routes with not a lot in the area of rubs or picks from other receivers to create space. Perhaps with Philbin coming back, there will be some new wrinkles to help the offense be less dependent on the scramble drill. I know sometimes his scrambles are by design, but it would be nice to gain chunks of yardage without A-Rod having to put on his cape so often during a game. The continued development of the running game and MM's willingness to actually use it effectively would help.

[mraynrand]

No doubt Janis is more prone to mental errors than the others. Yet, a few years ago when MM had no choice but to play him in the playoff game at Arizona, he had 7 catches for 145 yards and 2 TD's. He does have some unique skills. I wonder if Philbin might have some ideas about how to get him involved in the offense.

Seriously? 100 of those yards came on contested toss ups. Good for Janis catching them, but that's desperation. In 2005, half the Packer offense at the end of the season went through Tony Fisher and Antonio Chatman because that's all they had other than Driver.

I'd be happy to be wrong about Janis, but he's had a lot of chances - most of it out of our sight in practice - to impress coaches. There's no way Stubby et. al. are holding him back for no good reason.

[pbmax]

With A-Rod getting injured for a good chunk of two separate seasons, and being 34, I have to wonder if they will try and alter the approach to the scramble drill. They have to try to keep him out of harms way. I know comparisons are often worthless, but Brady often seems like he could make and eat a sandwich in the pocket before having to throw the ball. The rest of the time, he gets the ball out of his hand quickly before the rush can even factor into the play.

Back in 2015 when the offense was struggling without Jordy, I read an article that pointed out the Packers route tree was based on isolation routes with not a lot in the area of rubs or picks from other receivers to create space. Perhaps with Philbin coming back, there will be some new wrinkles to help the offense be less dependent on the scramble drill. I know sometimes his scrambles are by design, but it would be nice to gain chunks of yardage without A-Rod having to put on his cape so often during a game. The continued development of the running game and MM's willingness to actually use it effectively would help.

CP, I kinda hope they bring back the M3/Philbin offense from before too, and not just because of 15-1 in 2011.

Much of what has happened since they tried to adjust tempo (no huddle and hurry up) has not been as reliable. The offense also can no longer rely on WR getting open deep due to multiple factors like age, no more Jones, no TE threat, lack of functional speed, etc.

I want an offense that isn't all WR screens that can beat man coverage and complete 8 passes in a row for a TD drive.

I'm not asking for much, am I? :wink:

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Seriously? 100 of those yards came on contested toss ups. Good for Janis catching them, but that's desperation. In 2005, half the Packer offense at the end of the season went through Tony Fisher and Antonio Chatman because that's all they had other than Driver.

I'd be happy to be wrong about Janis, but he's had a lot of chances - most of it out of our sight in practice - to impress coaches. There's no way Stubby et. al. are holding him back for no good reason.

In the immortal words of the great Allen Iverson, "Practice? We're talkin' bout practice, man. Not a game!"

In my playing days, I used to fake injuries all the time just to sit out practices. That never prevented me from being a shutdown corner. Never stopped me from shutting down Darren Charles in a game.

None of us know how Janis fared in practice, but in games, good things usually happen when Janis is in the game.

McCarthy should've played Janis over that sloth Allison. Barr's monstrous hit didn't end the Packers' season. Allison's fumble did. Odds are, Janis would've caught the rock in that instance and then, via his awesome speed, dashed into the endzone.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Janis is an Unrestricted Free Agent . Who's to say they even bring him back at the minimum, or otherwise? I guess we'll find out.

I'm all for playing Janis at receiver, but if the Packers are serious about special teams, Janis is a must resign. If there's a prototype gunner, Janis is it - the perfect combination of size and speed. Deserves at least $2M/yr.

Belichick keeps 2-3 players solely for special teams every season, and I'm not talking about the kicker, punter and long snapper. Matthew Slater, for example, can't hold Janis' jockstrap as a receiver, but he continues to win rings with the Pats b/c of his special teams kung fu.

[Teamcheez1]

Janis doesn't deserve anywhere near $2M a year. Vet minimum with a small signing bonus or he can be sent packing.

[pbmax]

I'm all for playing Janis at receiver, but if the Packers are serious about special teams, Janis is a must resign. If there's a prototype gunner, Janis is it - the perfect combination of size and speed. Deserves at least $2M/yr.

Belichick keeps 2-3 players solely for special teams every season, and I'm not talking about the kicker, punter and long snapper. Matthew Slater, for example, can't hold Janis' jockstrap as a receiver, but he continues to win rings with the Pats b/c of his special teams kung fu.

Is he making 2+ mil per year?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Is he making 2+ mil per year?

Not sure, but Bush's last contract with the Packers averaged about $1.75 M/yr (3 yrs/ $5.25, $1M signing bonus, according to spotrac.com). Janis is just as good, if not better, a gunner/special teams ace as Bush was.

[mraynrand]

McCarthy should've played Janis over that sloth Allison. Barr's monstrous hit didn't end the Packers' season. Allison's fumble did. Odds are, Janis would've caught the rock in that instance and then, via his awesome speed, dashed into the endzone.

That could be true. More likely the season would have ended several plays earlier with Janis running the wrong route. But the coaches know he doesn't know the offense from previous stints on the field in games - and in practice.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

That could be true. More likely the season would have ended several plays earlier with Janis running the wrong route. But the coaches know he doesn't know the offense from previous stints on the field in games - and in practice.

Janis scored 30 on the Wonderlic. Dude's smart enough to run a deep post if they need him to run a deep post.

The more logical explanation: the coaches failed to utilize Janis, much in the same manner that Thompson failed to utilize Belichickism.

[pbmax]

Janis scored 30 on the Wonderlic. Dude's smart enough to run a deep post if they need him to run a deep post.

The more logical explanation: the coaches failed to utilize Janis, much in the same manner that Thompson failed to utilize Belichickism.

There are a lot of smart players who cannot play pro football well. Its muscle memory, not immediate recall.

Knowing what route is called and actually running it against physical equals are two different things. I cannot find the video, but last year Janis ran a slant and a LB read it and stood in his way. Janis' entire body reacted with surprise and like he had no idea what to do if things on the field did not look like the whiteboard.

He half heartedly continued after a slight pause, bumped into the LB and fell backward in an attempt to draw a flag. It might have been the worst slant route I have ever seen in my life. Brutal. He is used to dominating the opposition and has not adjusted to the level of resistance he meets on offense.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

There are a lot of smart players who cannot play pro football well. Its muscle memory, not immediate recall.

Knowing what route is called and actually running it against physical equals are two different things. I cannot find the video, but last year Janis ran a slant and a LB read it and stood in his way. Janis' entire body reacted with surprise and like he had no idea what to do if things on the field did not look like the whiteboard.

He half heartedly continued after a slight pause, bumped into the LB and fell backward in an attempt to draw a flag. It might have been the worst slant route I have ever seen in my life. Brutal. He is used to dominating the opposition and has not adjusted to the level of resistance he meets on offense.

Yes, Nick Collins scored 5 or something like that on the Wonderlic, and he didn't do too bad on the football field.

But just cos Janis is raw and makes a few mental mistakes doesn't mean he can't play. Pretty sure Adams and Nelson made a tons of them too in their first few seasons. And Janis has speed, something that can't be taught, or so the saying goes. When the guys you're playing are as slow as sloths, it doesn't hurt to add some speed.

As I stated previously, the coaches should've played Janis over Allison, a slothish JAG. Players like Allison are a dime a dozen. Janis has speed, and when he's on the field with the rock, good things usually happen.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

He's the perfect receiver for Tebow though.

Speaking of Tebow, there's a good chance he might play pro football again. I read somewhere that Vince McMahon is bringing "black" the XFL.

Hope to see Tebow and Johhnny Football play pro ball again. I rooted for the two of them to dominate the NFL. (I hope to see Kap back in the NFL next season.)

[mraynrand]

Janis scored 30 on the Wonderlic. Dude's smart enough to run a deep post if they need him to run a deep post.

The more logical explanation: the coaches failed to utilize Janis, much in the same manner that Thompson failed to utilize Belichickism.

So you're saying they used Janis better than 30 other teams would. OK, I agree with you.

[pbmax]

Problem with Belichickism.

Every team does it. And it fails most of them miserably, and most of them are far worse off than the Packers over the long run.

I think Tank has not quite sussed out the unique quality of the process that gives the Patriots the edge.

[bobblehead]

That is the Marty training in him.

But you can carry the above preferences too far in analyzing any of those coaches on GMs. Davis loved speed, but he would always take speed with hands if he could get it. As he got older he lost his fastball and took some possibly unwarranted risks.

I don't know much about Jerry's adventures, except that his son seems to have had a solid influence.

McCarthy might have hesitated to play Bishop, but Bishop wasn't a cure all either. M3 has a preference but he's not into harming himself.
agreed, which is why i said they have biases. I guess adding the second part of each one was confusing. Clearly a bias towards a fast physical freak who is assignment perfect is ideal. But given only certain things available coaches and GMs have a bias towards certain guys. My bias is towards instinctual football players with high motors. You cna continue to work on physical traits. A guy with no motor or instincts is limited in a way you can't overcome.

[Pugger]

Not sure, but Bush's last contract with the Packers averaged about $1.75 M/yr (3 yrs/ $5.25, $1M signing bonus, according to spotrac.com). Janis is just as good, if not better, a gunner/special teams ace as Bush was.

Did Bush ever get any All Pro votes for his ST work?

[pbmax]

Did Bush ever get any All Pro votes for his ST work?

Not according to pro football reference.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Problem with Belichickism.

Every team does it. And it fails most of them miserably, and most of them are far worse off than the Packers over the long run.

I think Tank has not quite sussed out the unique quality of the process that gives the Patriots the edge.

With all due respect, you are incorrect.

Not every team subscribes to Belichickism. For starter, the Packers under Thompson subscribed to Polar Bearism, also known as Draft and Develop, not Belichickism.

And that unique quality that makes the Pats successful? Tom Brady, an elite QB. Put Belichick on the 2017 Browns with Hundley-clone Kizer at QB and no way the Browns are in the Super Bowl. J-Mac subscribed to Belichickism in Denver, but failed mainly b/c he lacked an elite QB.

Belichickism works best with an elite QB. Belichick's 6 rings with Brady are proofs.

The Packers have an elite QB.

[texaspackerbacker]

Excellent Post, APB.

[mraynrand]

With all due respect, you are incorrect.

Not every team subscribes to Belichickism. For starter, the Packers under Thompson subscribed to Polar Bearism, also known as Draft and Develop, not Belichickism.

And that unique quality that makes the Pats successful? Tom Brady, an elite QB. Put Belichick on the 2017 Browns with Hundley-clone Kizer at QB and no way the Browns are in the Super Bowl. J-Mac subscribed to Belichickism in Denver, but failed mainly b/c he lacked an elite QB.

Belichickism works best with an elite QB. Belichick's 6 rings with Brady are proofs.

The Packers have an elite QB.

At some point you're going to have to accept that Belichickism requires Bill Belichick. Some of the FAs he's brought to the Patsies would never work anywhere else because the coaching isn't there, including Green Bay. Cheat is responsible for at least 8 Superbowl wins. Parcells was nothing without Cheat. Cheat is an exceptional coaching and GM talent, at this point I would say unquestionably the greatest in NFL history.

The Polar Bear was on a spectrum with total Draft/Development on one side and FA/Trade (George Allen) on the other. Despite your protestations, TT , though being tilted to DD side, still brought in FAs. The secret sauce for Belichickism was BB the coach being able to integrate talent and make it work in a team concept. That even included Terrell Buckley. BB the GM found a way to draw out the best last years of many a fading talent because BB the coach flawlessly deployed them.

This is my opinion: One important reason the Packers used DD so much was it was a way to indoctrinate young kids to the Green Bay life. It was a franchise survival tool to bring kids in who could live and play in a small town. So not only did they go heavy DD, but they generally selected guys mature enough to handle a city with virtually nothing to do that young kids with pockets of cash like. And veterans they brought in had to buy into that too. I'm not sure how much of a factor this is, but I'm certain it plays a part.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Excellent Post, APB.

Thanks Tex.

I was hoping you'd define "Good normal American" in the glossary thread, but I guess that term is too FYI for the Packer forum. Rand's definition is appropriate, but that means Rastak is not a good normal American. lol

[mraynrand]

Rand's definition is appropriate, but that means Rastak is not a good normal American. lol

Rastak is a Meh American. Supporting the Vikings doesn't make him a traitor to the nation or anything, but you can question his normalcy. :)

[Anti-Polar Bear]

At some point you're going to have to accept that Belichickism requires Bill Belichick. Some of the FAs he's brought to the Patsies would never work anywhere else because the coaching isn't there, including Green Bay. Cheat is responsible for at least 8 Superbowl wins. Parcells was nothing without Cheat. Cheat is an exceptional coaching and GM talent, at this point I would say unquestionably the greatest in NFL history.

The Polar Bear was on a spectrum with total Draft/Development on one side and FA/Trade (George Allen) on the other. Despite your protestations, TT , though being tilted to DD side, still brought in FAs. The secret sauce for Belichickism was BB the coach being able to integrate talent and make it work in a team concept. That even included Terrell Buckley. BB the GM found a way to draw out the best last years of many a fading talent because BB the coach flawlessly deployed them.

This is my opinion: One important reason the Packers used DD so much was it was a way to indoctrinate young kids to the Green Bay life. It was a franchise survival tool to bring kids in who could live and play in a small town. So not only did they go heavy DD, but they generally selected guys mature enough to handle a city with virtually nothing to do that young kids with pockets of cash like. And veterans they brought in had to buy into that too. I'm not sure how much of a factor this is, but I'm certain it plays a part.

Sure, Belichick is exceptional at some things coaching-wise, moreso at, say, game management than say, McCarthy. But many folks once doubted that the West Coast Offense would never work without Walsh, too. Holmgren and Shanahan, among others, debunked that theory. The NFL is a copycat league in which trade secrets are not so secrets. Copying Belichick's coaching style should not be too difficult.

And doing things like Belichick the GM is not difficult, either, especially with an ever increasing cap. As I've refrained previously, if Deshawn Wynn is your starting RB, and you have a chance to get Beast Mode, get Beast Mode. It's called an upgrade. If Shields season ended in week 1, you can't just hibernate and hope an undrafted player like Gunter "develops" quickly. If your receiving crop is productive but slothish, and you can acquire a speed fiend like Brandin Cooks for 1st and 3rds, why the hell not?

With an elite QB like Aaron Rodgers on your roster, optimizing the talent on your team with respect to the cap should be the way to do things. Draft and develop is for teams with no shot worth a damn, like the Browns. Draft and develop is just wasting Rodgers' prime, as the saying goes.

Thompson signed a notable free agent once every 2 or 3 blue moons. He rarely ever made any in-season trades. Mostly, he spent the majority of his time as GM drafting and hibernating. In other words, the antithesis of Belichick.

I don't buy the theory that players still don't want to play in Green Bay. Favre and White made playing in cold, dark and dull Green Bay cool again. For those with a longin for the city lights during the season, Milwaukee is only an hour south via car. Chicago, only 3. Plus, plan ticket costs to other urban paradises further away are chump changes to all these highly paid players. It's all about the Benjamins, and the Packers have plenty of them - thanks to revenue sharing.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Did Bush ever get any All Pro votes for his ST work?

Pb answered your question, but the fact that Janis got, I think, 2 votes this season supports the notion that he deserves at least $2 M/yr based on special teams acumen alone.

[bobblehead]

With all due respect, you are incorrect.

Not every team subscribes to Belichickism. For starter, the Packers under Thompson subscribed to Polar Bearism, also known as Draft and Develop, not Belichickism.

And that unique quality that makes the Pats successful? Tom Brady, an elite QB. Put Belichick on the 2017 Browns with Hundley-clone Kizer at QB and no way the Browns are in the Super Bowl. J-Mac subscribed to Belichickism in Denver, but failed mainly b/c he lacked an elite QB.

Belichickism works best with an elite QB. Belichick's 6 rings with Brady are proofs.

The Packers have an elite QB.

The patriots with Belichick are a unique thingy in history of pro sports. You also have to question the level of cheating involved. Bottom line is duh. An elite QB gives you an edge. Add to it the NFL and networks amid plummeting ratings were shitting their collective pants over a Bortles Foles Superbowl to the point the Patriots were holding, pulling jerseys and facemasking uncalled in that game and you get yet another Patriots in the big game.

I get it. TT wasn't Bellicheat any more than any other GM has been in recent history. TT won a superbowl, put together a 15-1 season, and had a success level rivaled ONLY by Bellicheat. I am not happy he is no longer the GM. MM on the other hand gets exposed quite often. I hope Gute signs every FA under the sun to make a run at it. Its win win for me. Either we get a packers superbowl or its exposed as a flawed strategy.

[bobblehead]

Parcells was nothing without Cheat.

Have to take exception to this remark. Parcells was an epic success with many a failing organization. Cheat failed in Cleveland, his only other shot as top dog. It could be argued he lucked into Brady much more than it could be argued TT lucked into ARod. Cheat didn't think highly enough of Brady to take him until round 6. TT knew Arod was a steal when he took him. It was a wildly unpopular pick. It took stones. Taking Brady in the 6th took luck.

Name me all the coaches in NFL history that took 2 teams to a superbowl and a 3rd team to an AFCC game. Same guy turned around a putrid dallas franchise and got them back into the playoffs with...what the fuck was his name at QB back then.??

[mraynrand]

Have to take exception to this remark. Parcells was an epic success with many a failing organization.

Cheat failed in Cleveland, his only other shot as top dog.

That doesn't refute my point. Without BB, the Giants never beat Kelly in 1990. That was BB's #1 defense. Same in 1986 with BB's top defense (#2 pass #2 run). You could say that Parcells lucked into having LT on his roster too. But it was BB who brought out his best and it was the Giants defenses that won them those championships (as defense 'always' does).

Seriously, I do give Parcells credit, but he was never a champ without BB.

[bobblehead]

That doesn't refute my point. Without BB, the Giants never beat Kelly in 1990. That was BB's #1 defense. Same in 1986 with BB's top defense (#2 pass #2 run). You could say that Parcells lucked into having LT on his roster too. But it was BB who brought out his best and it was the Giants defenses that won them those championships (as defense 'always' does).

Seriously, I do give Parcells credit, but he was never a champ without BB.

Like I said. When BB does it without Brady and with another team like Parcells did then I will believe. Right now he is a guy living off cheating and Tom Brady. Saying the assistant is responsible for the success of the HC is....weird. The HC brought him in. I could argue that Bellicheat was never a champ without some obscure ballboy that has been with the team throughout, but that would be silly.

[mraynrand]

Like I said. When BB does it without Brady and with another team like Parcells did then I will believe. Right now he is a guy living off cheating and Tom Brady. Saying the assistant is responsible for the success of the HC is....weird. The HC brought him in. I could argue that Bellicheat was never a champ without some obscure ballboy that has been with the team throughout, but that would be silly.

Bill won a lot with defense, not just Brady. Shut down the Greatest Show on Turf. Cleveland was a playoff team before Modell destroyed them with the moving season, so BB did it in another town just as much as Manzier Parcells did it in Dallas.

Belichick has all the accolades - 8 super bowls and he can take credit (though he doesn't) for 1986 and 1990 because it those were his defenses. I bet he would have shut down Favre in 1996 had he still been DC. Thank goodness he wasn't.

Don Shula had Dan Marino all those years - how many Superbowls did they win?

[call_me_ishmael]

I think Hoodie would have won a few more with Jimmy had he had the chance. BB is the goat man.

[Bretsky]

Those who consistently claim BB failed in Cleveland should really do some due diligence IMO

[bobblehead]

Bill won a lot with defense, not just Brady. Shut down the Greatest Show on Turf. Cleveland was a playoff team before Modell destroyed them with the moving season, so BB did it in another town just as much as Manzier Parcells did it in Dallas.

Belichick has all the accolades - 8 super bowls and he can take credit (though he doesn't) for 1986 and 1990 because it those were his defenses. I bet he would have shut down Favre in 1996 had he still been DC. Thank goodness he wasn't.

Don Shula had Dan Marino all those years - how many Superbowls did they win?

We are talking about Parcells, not Shula so...nice straw man.

Better check Hoodies overall record with Cleveland before you tell me how well he was doing.

[bobblehead]

Those who consistently claim BB failed in Cleveland should really do some due diligence IMO

I have. I watched that team. I thought they would be better. They disappointed me year in and out. I do think BB is great. I just simply believe Parcells was his mentor and better.

[bobblehead]

I'll use the same argument I use with TT and MM. Look at the respective trees...and yes, I get to use BB as a branch in Parcells tree.

[mraynrand]

We are talking about Parcells, not Shula so...nice straw man.

Better check Hoodies overall record with Cleveland before you tell me how well he was doing.

The Marino thing isn’t a straw
Man. Is a counter to the Brady magic. You can have the greatest QB but if the coaching and organization isn’t up to Cheat standards you get Fave and Rodgers and Steve Young with one title a piece.

I’m well aware of the entire Cheat trajectory in Cleveland. It was getting better before the rug was pulled.

[mraynrand]

I have. I watched that team. I thought they would be better. They disappointed me year in and out. I do think BB is great. I just simply believe Parcells was his mentor and better.

I know. I tend to oversell Cheat and undersell Coach Manzier. I should give Parcells the credit for his two super bowls. But overall I think Cheat Is better than Parcells. Hard to argue with all the success he’s had.

[woodbuck27]

Fast zombies are wrong. Zombies are slow, plodding and as inexorable as your own mortality.

Fast zombies pander to the vapid, adhd, instant gratification mindset of millennials and the iGeneration.

Just say ‘No’ to fast zombies.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/phobia/images/0/00/Vampire.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161113003732

[woodbuck27]

Originally Posted by Anti-Polar Bear
" ... I'm all for playing Janis at receiver, but if the Packers are serious about special teams, Janis is a must resign. If there's a prototype gunner, Janis is it - the perfect combination of size and speed. Deserves at least $2M/yr.

Belichick keeps 2-3 players solely for special teams every season, and I'm not talking about the kicker, punter and long snapper. Matthew Slater, for example, can't hold Janis' jockstrap as a receiver, but he continues to win rings with the Pats b/c of his special teams kung fu. " Original Post for pbmax's Comment below



Is he making 2+ mil per year?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/matthew-slater-4628/

Matthew Slater ...WR for the NE Patriots
Age: 32 ... Exp: 10 Years
Drafted: Round 5 (#153 overall), 2008 ... College: California-Los Angeles
Agent(s): Rep 1 Sports

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The patriots with Belichick are a unique thingy in history of pro sports. You also have to question the level of cheating involved. Bottom line is duh. An elite QB gives you an edge. Add to it the NFL and networks amid plummeting ratings were shitting their collective pants over a Bortles Foles Superbowl to the point the Patriots were holding, pulling jerseys and facemasking uncalled in that game and you get yet another Patriots in the big game.

I get it. TT wasn't Bellicheat any more than any other GM has been in recent history. TT won a superbowl, put together a 15-1 season, and had a success level rivaled ONLY by Bellicheat. I am not happy he is no longer the GM. MM on the other hand gets exposed quite often. I hope Gute signs every FA under the sun to make a run at it. Its win win for me. Either we get a packers superbowl or its exposed as a flawed strategy.

Exploiting loopholes for competitive advantages ain't cheating. Blame the game, not the players.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by Anti-Polar Bear
" ... I'm all for playing Janis at receiver, but if the Packers are serious about special teams, Janis is a must resign. If there's a prototype gunner, Janis is it - the perfect combination of size and speed. Deserves at least $2M/yr.

Belichick keeps 2-3 players solely for special teams every season, and I'm not talking about the kicker, punter and long snapper. Matthew Slater, for example, can't hold Janis' jockstrap as a receiver, but he continues to win rings with the Pats b/c of his special teams kung fu. " Original Post for pbmax's Comment below




http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/matthew-slater-4628/

Matthew Slater ...WR for the NE Patriots
Age: 32 ... Exp: 10 Years
Drafted: Round 5 (#153 overall), 2008 ... College: California-Los Angeles
Agent(s): Rep 1 Sports

:tup:

Janis indeed deserves at least $2 M/yr.

[bobblehead]

The Marino thing isn’t a straw
Man. Is a counter to the Brady magic. You can have the greatest QB but if the coaching and organization isn’t up to Cheat standards you get Fave and Rodgers and Steve Young with one title a piece.

I’m well aware of the entire Cheat trajectory in Cleveland. It was getting better before the rug was pulled.

Marino threw A LOT of picks....and I'm a marino fan.

[bobblehead]

Exploiting loopholes for competitive advantages ain't cheating. Blame the game, not the players.

Says the guy in FYI that whines every time a corporation or business owner uses the law and tax code to his/her advantage.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Imagine if BB never left Cleveland and achieved even half the success as he did in NE. I think the city would have renamed itself after him.

[hoosier]

Has anyone else noticed an uncanny resemblance to Jerry Lundegaard, the car dealer in Fargo?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lhOIqPgvcZs/hqdefault.jpg https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwicl5a__traAhWNnoMKHU4qAoIQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Frobreis chel%2F2018%2F04%2F01%2Fpackers-gutekunst-making-a-name-for-himself%2F&psig=AOvVaw10hq_ks_jeXVCcjOZ2zYjD&ust=1524936510304246

[pbmax]

Has anyone else noticed an uncanny resemblance to Jerry Lundegaard, the car dealer in Fargo?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lhOIqPgvcZs/hqdefault.jpg https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwicl5a__traAhWNnoMKHU4qAoIQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Frobreis chel%2F2018%2F04%2F01%2Fpackers-gutekunst-making-a-name-for-himself%2F&psig=AOvVaw10hq_ks_jeXVCcjOZ2zYjD&ust=1524936510304246

Gotta have the undercoating ...

[mraynrand]

Think he smeared the draft card?

[mraynrand]

Has anyone else noticed an uncanny resemblance to Jerry Lundegaard, the car dealer in Fargo?

Ya, darn tootin' I did!

[wist43]

1 18 Jaire Alexander CB Louisville
2 13 (45) Josh Jackson CB Iowa
3 24 (88, from CAR) Oren Burks LB Vanderbilt
4 33 (133 comp) J'Mon Moore WR Missouri
5 1 (138) Cole Madison OL Washington State
5 35 (172 comp) JK Scott P Alabama
5 37 (174 comp) Marquez Valdes-Scantling WR South Florida
6 33 (207, comp) Equanimeous St. Brown WR Notre Dame
7 14 (232) James Looney DE California
7 21 (239) Hunter Bradley LS Mississippi State
7 30 (248, from SEA) Kendall Donnerson OLB SE Missouri State

Okay, here is the skinny...

I really liked what Gute did in FA and on Day 1 of the draft. (Stop)

I can live with Josh Jackson in the 2nd. (Stop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Everything thereafter is WTF????

-------------------------------------------------------------

- Burks is the worst player in the history of college football. Simply, "WOW" terrible... Great athlete, great combine - worst football player to ever put pads on.

- I like the WR's we picked as players, but all of them are vertical players - just not sure how they fit MM's offense. Still, they are pretty talented, so we'll see.

- Can live with the Madison pick. Typical Packer OL pick.

- 2 Special Teams guys?? WTF??

- Didn't even attempt to address pass rush, or OLB. This is the one that really has me saying WTF??

Matthews is slowing down, so is Perry. Wilkerson has to rebound to contribute. Based on comments from the podium, they appear to be banking on Gilbert a lot.

The fact that they even mentioned Biegel as a possible contributor speaks to how desperate the situation is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

I applauded his dumping of Randall, but if they think they are going to get any production out of those other 3 guys, they are completely deluded.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of the same organizational problems that have plagued the Packers for many years are still there. Next year - the predraft buzz will be all about pass rush, and I seriously doubt the Packers front office will make the necessary moves to get this team over the top.

Overall, after a very encouraging start to the Gute era, I think it is obvious it is the "same old Packers".

[mraynrand]

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

The Biegel comment kinda kills your post. Injured, didn't play a lot, rookie. Isn't Jon Ryan the Seattle punter? Assume you mean Jake. Anyway, SMH.

[Bretsky]

1 18 Jaire Alexander CB Louisville
2 13 (45) Josh Jackson CB Iowa
3 24 (88, from CAR) Oren Burks LB Vanderbilt
4 33 (133 comp) J'Mon Moore WR Missouri
5 1 (138) Cole Madison OL Washington State
5 35 (172 comp) JK Scott P Alabama
5 37 (174 comp) Marquez Valdes-Scantling WR South Florida
6 33 (207, comp) Equanimeous St. Brown WR Notre Dame
7 14 (232) James Looney DE California
7 21 (239) Hunter Bradley LS Mississippi State
7 30 (248, from SEA) Kendall Donnerson OLB SE Missouri State

Okay, here is the skinny...

I really liked what Gute did in FA and on Day 1 of the draft. (Stop)

I can live with Josh Jackson in the 2nd. (Stop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Everything thereafter is WTF????

-------------------------------------------------------------

- Burks is the worst player in the history of college football. Simply, "WOW" terrible... Great athlete, great combine - worst football player to ever put pads on.

- I like the WR's we picked as players, but all of them are vertical players - just not sure how they fit MM's offense. Still, they are pretty talented, so we'll see.

- Can live with the Madison pick. Typical Packer OL pick.

- 2 Special Teams guys?? WTF??

- Didn't even attempt to address pass rush, or OLB. This is the one that really has me saying WTF??

Matthews is slowing down, so is Perry. Wilkerson has to rebound to contribute. Based on comments from the podium, they appear to be banking on Gilbert a lot.

The fact that they even mentioned Biegel as a possible contributor speaks to how desperate the situation is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

I applauded his dumping of Randall, but if they think they are going to get any production out of those other 3 guys, they are completely deluded.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of the same organizational problems that have plagued the Packers for many years are still there. Next year - the predraft buzz will be all about pass rush, and I seriously doubt the Packers front office will make the necessary moves to get this team over the top.

Overall, after a very encouraging start to the Gute era, I think it is obvious it is the "same old Packers".




GOOTEY COULD HAVE NAILED THIS DRAFT BUT TRADING UP FIVE SPOTS AND NAB HAROLD LANDRY IN ROUND 2; instead Tennessee jumped in front of us and got him

Last 6 years....one OLB in rounds 1-3....and does Fackrelll really even count ????

BIEGEL...wisty...you haven't seen enough to give him the Fackrell grade already

You might be right but give him one year before you throw him in the shitter.

Agree with the rest.

[woodbuck27]

Not off to a terrific start here, as he makes a hash of the numbers he is being given. If he was Wolf, he would have ignored numbers entirely, told a Madden story about how a chicken on a practice field helped them discover Cliff Branch and gave them a play idea. Then he would close with speed kills but you have to be careful not to just get track guys.

For the record, the Sportsradar stuff is game numbers, not 40 times, Brian. And I suspect that the slowness is most attributable to the Packers favorite route being an 8 yard stop and turnaround, looking for directions from the QB.



http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/25/speedy-lsu-wide-receiver-dj-chark-could-tempt-plodding-packers/1065776001/

Former Green Bay Packer GM Ron wolf was asked to comment on new Packer GM Brian Gutekunst's first NFL DRAFT; and his response ...

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/e9702d9622c5889c1f1713fc29ab8b21a0dd286c/c=0-0-1952-1103&r=x1683&c=3200x1680/local/-/media/2015/01/30/WIGroup/PackersNews/635582244440172184-gwnbk-56d5gfmt66d1ce89z9ne-original.jpg

You just can't make that stuff up !

[Fritz]

1 18 Jaire Alexander CB Louisville
2 13 (45) Josh Jackson CB Iowa
3 24 (88, from CAR) Oren Burks LB Vanderbilt
4 33 (133 comp) J'Mon Moore WR Missouri
5 1 (138) Cole Madison OL Washington State
5 35 (172 comp) JK Scott P Alabama
5 37 (174 comp) Marquez Valdes-Scantling WR South Florida
6 33 (207, comp) Equanimeous St. Brown WR Notre Dame
7 14 (232) James Looney DE California
7 21 (239) Hunter Bradley LS Mississippi State
7 30 (248, from SEA) Kendall Donnerson OLB SE Missouri State

Okay, here is the skinny...

I really liked what Gute did in FA and on Day 1 of the draft. (Stop)

I can live with Josh Jackson in the 2nd. (Stop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Everything thereafter is WTF????

-------------------------------------------------------------

- Burks is the worst player in the history of college football. Simply, "WOW" terrible... Great athlete, great combine - worst football player to ever put pads on.

- I like the WR's we picked as players, but all of them are vertical players - just not sure how they fit MM's offense. Still, they are pretty talented, so we'll see.

- Can live with the Madison pick. Typical Packer OL pick.

- 2 Special Teams guys?? WTF??

- Didn't even attempt to address pass rush, or OLB. This is the one that really has me saying WTF??

Matthews is slowing down, so is Perry. Wilkerson has to rebound to contribute. Based on comments from the podium, they appear to be banking on Gilbert a lot.

The fact that they even mentioned Biegel as a possible contributor speaks to how desperate the situation is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

I applauded his dumping of Randall, but if they think they are going to get any production out of those other 3 guys, they are completely deluded.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of the same organizational problems that have plagued the Packers for many years are still there. Next year - the predraft buzz will be all about pass rush, and I seriously doubt the Packers front office will make the necessary moves to get this team over the top.

Overall, after a very encouraging start to the Gute era, I think it is obvious it is the "same old Packers".



So...building on this post and Bretsky's, I think it was, would you Packerrats prefer the draft class as is, or Harold Landry instead of Jackson in the second, which would cost you one of your two fourths plus a fifth, which means you'd give up that punter and that Joe Thomas-like third round guy?

In other words, Wist, while you and I have serious disagreements in many ways, I agree with much of your analysis above.

[mraynrand]

So...building on this post and Bretsky's, I think it was, would you Packerrats prefer the draft class as is, or Harold Landry instead of Jackson in the second, which would cost you one of your two fourths plus a fifth, which means you'd give up that punter and that Joe Thomas-like third round guy?

In other words, Wist, while you and I have serious disagreements in many ways, I agree with much of your analysis above.

If Jackson turns out better than Landry, then I say keep as is. If Landry turns out better, I'd like to go back in time and change the draft.

[Fritz]

Now there's a man who understands what it means to be a fan.

I tip my hat to you. Well played.

[beveaux1]

Maybe this will help those of you who think Burks can’t play a lick of football.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2018/02/24/college-highlights-oren-burks-lb-vanderbilt

I think maybe he can play a little.

[woodbuck27]

1 18 Jaire Alexander CB Louisville
2 13 (45) Josh Jackson CB Iowa
3 24 (88, from CAR) Oren Burks LB Vanderbilt
4 33 (133 comp) J'Mon Moore WR Missouri
5 1 (138) Cole Madison OL Washington State
5 35 (172 comp) JK Scott P Alabama
5 37 (174 comp) Marquez Valdes-Scantling WR South Florida
6 33 (207, comp) Equanimeous St. Brown WR Notre Dame
7 14 (232) James Looney DE California
7 21 (239) Hunter Bradley LS Mississippi State
7 30 (248, from SEA) Kendall Donnerson OLB SE Missouri State

Okay, here is the skinny...

I really liked what Gute did in FA and on Day 1 of the draft. (Stop)

I can live with Josh Jackson in the 2nd. (Stop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Everything thereafter is WTF????

-------------------------------------------------------------

- Burks is the worst player in the history of college football. Simply, "WOW" terrible... Great athlete, great combine - worst football player to ever put pads on.

- I like the WR's we picked as players, but all of them are vertical players - just not sure how they fit MM's offense. Still, they are pretty talented, so we'll see.

- Can live with the Madison pick. Typical Packer OL pick.

- 2 Special Teams guys?? WTF??

- Didn't even attempt to address pass rush, or OLB. This is the one that really has me saying WTF??

Matthews is slowing down, so is Perry. Wilkerson has to rebound to contribute. Based on comments from the podium, they appear to be banking on Gilbert a lot.

The fact that they even mentioned Biegel as a possible contributor speaks to how desperate the situation is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

I applauded his dumping of Randall, but if they think they are going to get any production out of those other 3 guys, they are completely deluded.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of the same organizational problems that have plagued the Packers for many years are still there. Next year - the predraft buzz will be all about pass rush, and I seriously doubt the Packers front office will make the necessary moves to get this team over the top.

Overall, after a very encouraging start to the Gute era, I think it is obvious it is the "same old Packers".

I'll go one step more and tossing this Draft in the Shitter:

I feel it surpassed every TT Draft in terms of 'WTF was that Pick about'? How was that even possible !?

Was TT there screaming NO ! I want my Guy !?

Brian Gutekunst is the GM of a Pro Football team NOT a Track and Field Team.

Pick Football Players not Track Stars.

I wasn't at all impressed with the Packers War Rom performance Thursday Night. That was a sad case of too much Razzle Dazzle and frankly the New Packer GMis getting the blame for that charade of serious ERROR. He blew it frankly and I'll write down one name to place an accent on the degree of his failure...ILB Tremaine Edmunds and his 7.17 GRADE or OK Two and add Safety Derwin James and his 6.44 Grade.

This Draft we saw the clearest example of PANIC and obviously either bad preperation or the wrong man calling the wrong Final decisions and the Actual Picks. Even when I was calling for a certain Position Pick they only got it half right. There were no Home Runs except I was mildly pleased to see who the Packers landed at Pick NO, 45. I was surprised that they went CB and then another CB but the fact that CB - Joshua Jackson was available, might have turned that trick.

I posted this elsewhere. THe conclusion that the NFL is in collusion is over the TOP too obvious now.

As a part of that agreement it sure seems like the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" Policy fPact is in.

I can see the Green Bay Packer Grade (s) now and all 'the Packerrat Cool Aid Drinkers' shouting 'see that..that was a GREAT Draft afterall'. GREAT DRAFT for the Packers !? If that Draft earns the Packers higher than a C + Grade that supports 'a collusion policy'.

That wasn't even close to a good Draft. That DRAFT simply sucked hugh air right out of the throats of Packer Nation. That was a horrible Draft on Paper. That was a disgrace and embarrassment to Packer Nation.

How much really did that Draft help our strength or the Packer Offense?

Was the weakness on the RHS of the Packer OL addressed? A solid GUARD or Tackle.

Did Brian Gutekunst and his Draft Team (all of his Scouting Dept.) come up with anything even resembling a decent shot of a compliment to WR Davante Adams? That draft all but ensured that Adams will be nullified in 2018.

Te NFL is like a chess match today. You need the brains to compete or you simply must lose the Chess Game. The Collective Brains of the Green Bay Packer BRASS looked fried this past three days.

This DRAFT 'on Paper' was a disaster.

[Bretsky]

[QUOTE=mraynrand;974278]If Jackson turns out better than Landry, then I say keep as is. If Landry turns out better, I'd like to go back in time and change the draft.[/QUOTE


Pussy...lol

Given our roster, I'm moving up all day long for Landry. Even if they are equivalent players, there were opportunities to get quality CB's later..aka....Nelson.......

[Bretsky]

1 14------------TREMAINE EDMUNDS...........OLB
2 13 (45) Josh Jackson CB Iowa
3 24 (88, from CAR) Oren Burks LB Vanderbilt
4 33 (133 comp) J'Mon Moore WR Missouri
5 1 (138) Cole Madison OL Washington State
5 35 (172 comp) JK Scott P Alabama
5 37 (174 comp) Marquez Valdes-Scantling WR South Florida
6 33 (207, comp) Equanimeous St. Brown WR Notre Dame
7 14 (232) James Looney DE California
7 21 (239) Hunter Bradley LS Mississippi State
7 30 (248, from SEA) Kendall Donnerson OLB SE Missouri State

Okay, here is the skinny...

I really liked what Gute did in FA and on Day 1 of the draft. (Stop)

I can live with Josh Jackson in the 2nd. (Stop)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Everything thereafter is WTF????

-------------------------------------------------------------

- Burks is the worst player in the history of college football. Simply, "WOW" terrible... Great athlete, great combine - worst football player to ever put pads on.

- I like the WR's we picked as players, but all of them are vertical players - just not sure how they fit MM's offense. Still, they are pretty talented, so we'll see.

- Can live with the Madison pick. Typical Packer OL pick.

- 2 Special Teams guys?? WTF??

- Didn't even attempt to address pass rush, or OLB. This is the one that really has me saying WTF??

Matthews is slowing down, so is Perry. Wilkerson has to rebound to contribute. Based on comments from the podium, they appear to be banking on Gilbert a lot.

The fact that they even mentioned Biegel as a possible contributor speaks to how desperate the situation is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

4 players needed to be shown the door this offseason: Randall, Fackrell, Jon Ryan, and Biegel.

I applauded his dumping of Randall, but if they think they are going to get any production out of those other 3 guys, they are completely deluded.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of the same organizational problems that have plagued the Packers for many years are still there. Next year - the predraft buzz will be all about pass rush, and I seriously doubt the Packers front office will make the necessary moves to get this team over the top.

Overall, after a very encouraging start to the Gute era, I think it is obvious it is the "same old Packers".




HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION WISTY AND WOODY AND ALL...............WHAT IF GOOTIE HAS STAYED THERE AND NOT TRADED DOWN


HOW WOULD YOU HAVE FELT ABOUT THE ABOVE ???????????????

[mraynrand]

Given our roster, I'm moving up all day long for Landry. Even if they are equivalent players, there were opportunities to get quality CB's later..aka....Nelson.......

I mentioned something in the draft thread that Landry looked like a one trick pony to me - shoulder dip upfield and that's it. I like the Jackson pick because of the way he plays, and I'd stay with him if it were my choice. I worry that he's mostly faced some pretty rotten QBs.

[woodbuck27]

Gotta have the undercoating ...

Classic Dark Comedy ala 'a Packer GM Brian Gutekunst media interview' after the Packers War Room Razzle Dazzle in Round One of the Draft:

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/fargo.jpg

[Practices calling Wade Gustafson his Father in Law after wifey is kidnapped]

Yah, Wade, It's Jerry, I ... Yah, Wade, it's, I, it's Jerry... I don't know what to do it's Jean. I don't know what to do it's my wife. I don't know what to do it's Jean. Wade, it's Jerry, I ... Wade, it's Jerry! We gotta talk! Oh, geez, it's terrible... [calls the number] Yah, Wade Gustafson, please.

[mraynrand]

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION WISTY AND WOODY AND ALL...............WHAT IF GOOTIE HAS STAYED THERE AND NOT TRADED DOWN


HOW WOULD YOU HAVE FELT ABOUT THE ABOVE ???????????????

The potential upside is huge. Dude could be a monster at ILB, maybe even outside a bit too. But that's not where the team was hurting the most. This was a need draft. Not only do the Packers need corners but they are going to need them to start. That Edmunds kid is a lot more raw than the Packer CBs.

[Bretsky]

The potential upside is huge. Dude could be a monster at ILB, maybe even outside a bit too. But that's not where the team was hurting the most. This was a need draft. Not only do the Packers need corners but they are going to need them to start. That Edmunds kid is a lot more raw than the Packer CBs.



I really like N Nelson form the Mighty Badgers

CB's were so deep this year they were there in round 4 and 5

Elite talent LB'ers were not.

Edmunds is a high risk/high reward guy though. He's only 19.

I worry we had a chance to get an elite person on defense...and we never get that shot because we never draft this high

Hope we made the right call.

[Zool]

I can’t figure out the Nick Nelson love. He made big plays but got beat a lot this year.

[woodbuck27]

When asked Former Packer GM responded yes he failed in his inaugural Draft..

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vzF0Tzaf51c/maxresdefault.jpg

Brian Gutekunst Blew the Draft with one name:

** Tremaine Edmunds



** Tremaine Edmunds - VIRGINIA TECH

Rnd 1, Pick 16 ILB Buffalo Bills - Junior - GRADE = 7.17

Pick Analysis:

He doesn't turn 20 until May 2. He's an off the ball linebacker and some people think he's so talented, he might even be a pass rusher on third down. His future is immense. He's got this rare size and skill set that gives him a sub-package versatility that is unknown in today's game. --Mike Mayock

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tremaine-edmunds?id=32462018-0002-5600-62d0-412c60099aca

Overview

Edmunds combines elite size, speed and explosiveness into a productive, versatile linebacker package that will have evaluators salivating. Edmunds has posted high-impact production over the last two seasons and he still has room to get bigger and better. He will make mental mistakes and his instincts are subpar, but he has an ability to mitigate those issues with his athletic ability. Edmunds can play in any alignment at any linebacker spot and has All-Pro potential no matter where he lands.

[wist43]

The Biegel comment kinda kills your post. Injured, didn't play a lot, rookie. Isn't Jon Ryan the Seattle punter? Assume you mean Jake. Anyway, SMH.

I can't stand Biegel... and yes, you'll forgive my addled memory Jon/Jake - I'm still a bit doped up. Home from the hospital, be in bed for a few days - so if i make less sense than my usual senseless sense, you can assume i just took some pain meds, lol...

[woodbuck27]

I can't stand Biegel... and yes, you'll forgive my addled memory Jon/Jake - I'm still a bit doped up. Home from the hospital, be in bed for a few days - so if i make less sense than my usual senseless sense, you can assume i just took some pain meds, lol...

I'm glad to see you posting wist43.

Take it really easy Packer fan.

Noone with even half a brain is going to defend The Packer BRASS and this real mess over that past three days.

The Saturday Night LIVE comedy writers couldn't write it up any more screwey.

Let's call it a Rookie GM Panic Attack. :huh:

[Bretsky]

I can't stand Biegel... and yes, you'll forgive my addled memory Jon/Jake - I'm still a bit doped up. Home from the hospital, be in bed for a few days - so if i make less sense than my usual senseless sense, you can assume i just took some pain meds, lol...


You just don't like white Badgers !! lol...j/k........

[George Cumby]

Maybe this will help those of you who think Burks can’t play a lick of football.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2018/02/24/college-highlights-oren-burks-lb-vanderbilt

I think maybe he can play a little.

Dude plays fast and aggressive against good competition. Looks more instinctive than Ryan ever did.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I really like N Nelson form the Mighty Badgers

CB's were so deep this year they were there in round 4 and 5

Elite talent LB'ers were not.

Edmunds is a high risk/high reward guy though. He's only 19.

I worry we had a chance to get an elite person on defense...and we never get that shot because we never draft this high

Hope we made the right call.

I don't necessarily think the draft was that deep at CB this year. There were 4 CBs that I felt really good about (Ward, Alexander, Oliver, Josh Jackson). There were a few others that I liked (Dawson, Hughes, Donte Jackson). A couple of boom or bust prospects (Averett, Davis). After that, it wasn't overly impressive. There were some with good sleeper potential (Nelson, Hill, Maddox).

[woodbuck27]

Dude plays fast and aggressive against good competition. Looks more instinctive than Ryan ever did.

He has seriously good closing speed and can tackle.

[wist43]

I don't necessarily think the draft was that deep at CB this year. There were 4 CBs that I felt really good about (Ward, Alexander, Oliver, Josh Jackson). There were a few others that I liked (Dawson, Hughes, Donte Jackson). A couple of boom or bust prospects (Averett, Davis). After that, it wasn't overly impressive. There were some with good sleeper potential (Nelson, Hill, Maddox).

Why not draft a guy like Hill in the 7th, and assume he gets suspended at least you own his rights if he ever grows up.

I'd rather do that than take a long snapper.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Why not draft a guy like Hill in the 7th, and assume he gets suspended at least you own his rights if he ever grows up.

I'd rather do that than take a long snapper.

With the issues we've had since Goode started getting hurt, LS was a need. I'd like to not go through the LS carousel anymore. Hopefully, this guy delivers. I have no idea why this guy over Carew, but I won't pretend to be a LS guru.

[wist43]

Looking ahead a couple of years, I was hoping that we could be in the conversation for a SB title in 2020.

My hope was that Gute would get a lot of prospects in the pipeline this year, and he has for the most part; but the organization has completely blown off upgrading the pass rush, and that will set the team back at least another year - now the best case might be that we push for an NFCCG appearance by 2021; and, that is only assuming they go all-in on rebuilding the pass rush next year. Something that is certainly not a given.

To hear Gute and MM talk as if Fackrell and Biegel are legit options was very disheartening. Fackrell will be cut before next season, and Biegel is a long shot at best. There's some talent on the DL, but the overall LB corp is so weak that there is no way this team can compete with the elite teams in the league.

I like the WR's they brought in, and I think they fixed the secondary for the most part, but ignoring the pass rush like they did is really going to set the team back.

[3irty1]

I'm pretty pleased with what I saw from Gute.

First that was some impressive navigating in the first round. When you're a team that wins in the NFL you have to get value wherever you can find it and I think that happened. Since exploiting loopholes and competitive advantages ain't cheating, you all know what to do if you find yourself in a position to push Drew Brees into traffic in the next few months.

Deja vu drafting back to back corners again, but I'm glad these guys aren't projects. We just can't have too many good corners even with perfect health. The need for pass rush might be a little overstated. Acquiring Peppers was a great opportunity, but we don't absolutely need a 3rd starting caliber OLB. When we won the SB we were thinner there than we are now. Plus there is Pettine to consider, who never even saw a decent OLB until he was in Buffalo yet still managed to make lemonade. What our pass rush needs right now is help in the secondary and lots of it. If these young guys put it together a weakness can be a strength once again.

Drafting the three WR reminds me of last year's approach to running backs. I hope they push each other because if any of them hit we'll finally have one of those big matchup nightmare guys.

[Patler]

With the issues we've had since Goode started getting hurt, LS was a need. I'd like to not go through the LS carousel anymore. Hopefully, this guy delivers. I have no idea why this guy over Carew, but I won't pretend to be a LS guru.

Exactly. They got the guy they think is the best prospect from this year's draft class.

Right now, the only LS on the roster is Zack Triner, who also has no NFL experience and has been out of college a couple years.
I expect Goode is their fallback guy again, but they have been trying to find a replacement for him since last year. I think they tried four different one last year, two during the season when Goode was out, but apparently they didn't like any of them well enough to sign them this year.

Right now, LS is a big question mark on this team.

[woodbuck27]

https://247sports.com/ContentGallery/NFL-Combine-2018-25-fastest-players-in-40-yard-dash-115869566/2

2018 NFL Combine's 25 fastest players

Defensive backs lit up the 40-yard dash at the 2018 NFL Combine.

By: Brad Crawford - Mar 5, 1:00 PM

[pbmax]

Acquiring Peppers was a great opportunity, but we don't absolutely need a 3rd starting caliber OLB. When we won the SB we were thinner there than we are now. Plus there is Pettine to consider, who never even saw a decent OLB until he was in Buffalo yet still managed to make lemonade. What our pass rush needs right now is help in the secondary and lots of it.

It would really look like the Super Bowl team if they got push up the middle in the pass rush.

Bring back Howard Green.

[hoosier]

I mentioned something in the draft thread that Landry looked like a one trick pony to me - shoulder dip upfield and that's it. I like the Jackson pick because of the way he plays, and I'd stay with him if it were my choice. I worry that he's mostly faced some pretty rotten QBs.

He faced Josh Allen, McSorley, Barrett and Horny last year. Now granted, Josh Allen may be the worst QB ever to be drafted in the top 10, or at least he has the potential to rival Rich Campbell for that honor, but I woudn't call him a rotten QB.

[gbgary]

you want to see some bad film check out donnerson...one tackling technique, not agile. must have been the measureables. Lombardi would be yelling "grab, grab, grab." lol. #81... https://www.hudl.com/video/3/852744/5721b422041ddc1b003e5929

[mraynrand]

you want to see some bad film check out donnerson...one tackling technique, not agile. must have been the measureables. Lombardi would be yelling "grab, grab, grab." lol. #81... https://www.hudl.com/video/3/852744/5721b422041ddc1b003e5929


Here's some high school footage of a QB who throws late across his body into coverage (1:21)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn_S7ZT4-aI

[gbgary]

Here's some high school footage of a QB who throws late across his body into coverage (1:21)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn_S7ZT4-aI

and nothing changed all the way to the hof.