"Packers Attack CB but Neglect Outside Pass Rush ""

[Bretsky]

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2018/04/27/dougherty-packers-determined-correct-cornerback-problem/559052002/

[SMBASS]

I don't really have a problem with the way they went about it. This was a weak year for edge rushers and even Landry and Davenport had plenty of question marks. (I wasn't personally enamored with either one of them.) There's no way you can fill all of the holes with one draft so by taking Alexander and Jackson I think they got the best value they could and hopefully helped solidify the defensive backfield for the next few years. (Plus picked up an additional 1st Round pick for next year.)

I think most fans would have been peeing their pants with excitement if you would have told them before the draft that we would end up getting Jackson, Alexander, and an extra 1st Rd. pick next year in the first 2 rounds. (I realize we gave up a 3rd this year in the trade for next years 1st.)

[mraynrand]

These are rookies. The back end was a cluster. How do you not address a secondary with King as your only barely legit starter (between being a rook and missing games, how much do we really know about even him?), and two barely stop gap guys waiting in the wings in Williams and House? The 3rd round LB may be raw but he actually may play a select few snaps where his speed could be an advantage. Maybe he's never more than that, but that's likely an upgrade over Ryan on passing downs, no? When you have 3 7th round picks, what's the harm in drafting the long snapper. He probably has a better chance to stick than any other 7th rounder. As far as pass rush, if Matthews continues to decline, and others don't mature/step up it will be a bad year in that area. And as night follows day, only 40-50% of these picks will turn out well, and the ones who suck will be endlessly compared to cherry-picked choices from the 31 other teams. That's the nature of this all. But seriously, people's expectations are unrealistic. Like every draft, every year.

[beveaux1]

These are rookies. The back end was a cluster. How do you not address a secondary with King as your only barely legit starter (between being a rook and missing games, how much do we really know about even him?), and two barely stop gap guys waiting in the wings in Williams and House? The 3rd round LB may be raw but he actually may play a select few snaps where his speed could be an advantage. Maybe he's never more than that, but that's likely an upgrade over Ryan on passing downs, no? When you have 3 7th round picks, what's the harm in drafting the long snapper. He probably has a better chance to stick than any other 7th rounder. As far as pass rush, if Matthews continues to decline, and others don't mature/step up it will be a bad year in that area. And as night follows day, only 40-50% of these picks will turn out well, and the ones who suck will be endlessly compared to cherry-picked choices from the 31 other teams. That's the nature of this all. But seriously, people's expectations are unrealistic. Like every draft, every year.

+1

[Smidgeon]

These are rookies. The back end was a cluster. How do you not address a secondary with King as your only barely legit starter (between being a rook and missing games, how much do we really know about even him?), and two barely stop gap guys waiting in the wings in Williams and House? The 3rd round LB may be raw but he actually may play a select few snaps where his speed could be an advantage. Maybe he's never more than that, but that's likely an upgrade over Ryan on passing downs, no? When you have 3 7th round picks, what's the harm in drafting the long snapper. He probably has a better chance to stick than any other 7th rounder. As far as pass rush, if Matthews continues to decline, and others don't mature/step up it will be a bad year in that area. And as night follows day, only 40-50% of these picks will turn out well, and the ones who suck will be endlessly compared to cherry-picked choices from the 31 other teams. That's the nature of this all. But seriously, people's expectations are unrealistic. Like every draft, every year.

We should do polls for every Packers pick to determine which players we would have taken in that spot. In three years, come back and see if we or the Packers had a better draft.

[Fritz]

Nah, it's more fun to bitch and moan and never be held accountable.

[mraynrand]

Nah, it's more fun to bitch and moan and never be held accountable.

:)

QFT

[esoxx]

These are rookies. The back end was a cluster. How do you not address a secondary with King as your only barely legit starter (between being a rook and missing games, how much do we really know about even him?), and two barely stop gap guys waiting in the wings in Williams and House?

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

[SMBASS]

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

Couldn't agree more. Same can be said for the entire D side of the ball over the past few years. Datone Jones, Randall, Rollins, HaHa, Adams, Worthy, Fackrell, Thornton, Bradford, etc..

[Smidgeon]

Couldn't agree more. Same can be said for the entire D side of the ball over the past few years.

Which is why there's a new d staff. Ultimately.

[beveaux1]

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

In 1999, Ron Wolf drafted 3 CBs in a row from the 1st through 3rd round. Only the 3rd round pick became a decent player in the NFL. Injuries, practice habits, ability, and attitude and maybe a large dose of luck determine whether these guys play 2 years or 10 years. GMs who hit on 50% of their 1st round picks stay in their jobs for a good career. Chances are only 1 of the CBs drafted this year will hit. King may only be 50-50 that he becomes a reliable starter. Rollins has been injured and slow the past 2 years after a promising rookie year. That might be too little too late for him to stay in Green Bay. If 2 of the 3 CBs drafted the past two years fail, we’ll be drafting more in a couple of years. The draft is no sure thing just like free agency is no sure thing. In fact, the only sure thing is that the team that wins the Super Bowl starts 0-0 the next year and very likely won’t win the big game that year

[Bretsky]

Nah, it's more fun to bitch and moan and never be held accountable.


I like to bitch and moan AND be accountable !!!!!!!!! lol

Wonder where Lurker is ? I had some of my best arguments with him about his defense of Donte Mock (LB) versus Brooks Smash Mouth Reed (who still plays but never was really that good like I thought he would be)

Odell Thurman...there was a guy with unlimited talent......but I didn't realize how bad of a person he was

Wrote a Blog on why drafting AJ Hawk was such a no brainer; thought that guy would be a star

Hated Ahmad Carroll from the start. And didn't want GB to draft Aaron Rodgers. Hated Justine Harrell and Derrok Sherrard. Wanted TJ Watt over Keven King for sure. Hated nearly all our 3rd round picks....we should just quit that round as it's been HORRIBLE for GREEN BAY...Thornton, Fackrell, the frickin Plodder....what miserable memories from round 3 !!

I'm a win now selfish b'stard.

This year I'd have been playing a prince celebration song while dancing up to take Tremaine Edmunds..and then in round two I'd have went Isaiah Oliver or Josh Jackson.

[Smidgeon]

Someone should dig up old draft threads and map the success rates of posters here.

[Bretsky]

Someone should dig up old draft threads and map the success rates of posters here.

THANK YOU for volunteering !!! ! lol

[woodbuck27]

Come on Bretsky they only had 12 Picks.

They needed a Punter and Long Snapper in there somewhere. Obviously we missed that crucial need.

Evidently ...Mason Crosby pulls more weight than Aaron Rodgers.

Then there were those inevitable trade ups and downs for the wrong reasons at the wrong times; by our GM in Command of all things and Packer Future ... Packer GM Brian Gutekunst.

Horrahh Horrahh ! What 'a trip' these last three days were. :-)

Ghh Ghhh Gh ... Go Pack Go !

[mraynrand]

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

Assuming you're right, the backend was in terrible shape. So your conclusion is that they should draft elsewhere then, right?

[woodbuck27]

Nah, it's more fun to bitch and moan and never be held accountable.

Shake this Fritz:

Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner -Up and 3 X 3rd Place.

Some of us actually do know what we're talking and complaining about.

If you screw the pooch the pooch snarls.

https://lunaphyte.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/angry-dog.jpg

[gbgary]

i think they thought cb and wr were the biggest problems areas. wr's are old (jordy/cobb) and poor quality (everyone except allison). cb's are old (williams/house) and poor quality (everyone except king). i think that's why they hit those areas hard again (forget the best guy on the board crap as they pretty much ignored most other positions and passed over some really good players). as for the cb's...anderson and jackson will join king, williams, and probably house. the others will fight it out for the few spots left. the wr's...they cut jordy, signed a red zone target in graham, and drafted speed and length. may the best men win.

[texaspackerbacker]

It seems pretty clear that Gutekunst cares more for the testing and the athleticism that it indicates than Ted did. Whether that translates to better quality players remains to be seen.

[gbgary]

It seems pretty clear that Gutekunst cares more for the testing and the athleticism that it indicates than Ted did. Whether that translates to better quality players remains to be seen.

i saw sparq mentioned quite a bit this weekend.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Gute went into this draft intending to shore up our pass defense. You do that by fixing the front 7 and/or the back 4. IMO there were only 3 studs in this draft that could be difference-makers in the front 7: Chubb, Vea and Payne. Chubb was out of reach. Tampa took Vea with the 12th pick. The Redskins took Payne with the 13th pick. So, rather than spend his top pick on a questionable difference-maker like Landry, he decided to spend it on his #1-rated CB. I can't argue with that.

Some will say he should have then spent his 2nd pick on a lesser EDGE talent. Of course that would mean picking a lesser CB talent as well to round out the secondary in a later round.

When Jackson slipped to GB in the 2nd round, the die was cast. Gute saw his chance to shore up the back end of our pass defense with the top two CB's on his board. Really, who can argue with that?

Bottom line is: Yeah, I might have done a few things differently after selecting Jackson, but I'm not going to bitch Gute out preemptively. I'll wait to see if things pan out in September. If they don't, I'll use my fan's prerogative and bitch at him then. LOL

[woodbuck27]

Here is where the Packers FAILED in this Draft.

Packerrats obviously recognized the need in this Draft to have as a FIRST PRIORITY to address Pass Rush.

That TRUTH is supported in out First Round MOCK POLL where the majority voted for EDGE and either Harold Landry or Marcus Davenport.

**A rule of thumb and the Draft is to address priorities and Draft "Inside outside and Front to Back"**

Yes the Packers Roster sucks at the Defensive Backs (S and CB) and have a serious Issue and Offense and WR.

The serious 'NO. 1 Need' was to address a lousy PASS RUSH.

What did the Packer BRASS do:

They traded out of a NO. 14 Slot to what...NO. 27...nonsense !

The Panicked and moved back to NO. 18 and selected a CB.

They then in Round Two doubled down and again selected a CB.

That was 'a DOUBLE ERROR' and **.

Those two errors in Rounds One and Two and trading away their original Round Three Pick at NO.76 were obvious ERRORS.

There could after that be NO RECOVERY.

All the above is predicated on addressing the need and Pass Rush with 'a serious addition in this Draft'.

Obviously Packer GM Brian Gutekunst stayed true to his Board and addressed a serious deficiency in the Packer Secondary or Pass Protection and The CB Position.

Different people and different priorities.

Brian Gutekunst is the Green Bay Packer GM, 'trumps' I'm a Green Bay Packer fan.

[woodbuck27]

Gute went into this draft intending to shore up our pass defense. You do that by fixing the front 7 and/or the back 4. IMO there were only 3 studs in this draft that could be difference-makers in the front 7: Chubb, Vea and Payne. Chubb was out of reach. Tampa took Vea with the 12th pick. The Redskins took Payne with the 13th pick. So, rather than spend his top pick on a questionable difference-maker like Landry, he decided to spend it on his #1-rated CB. I can't argue with that.

Some will say he should have then spent his 2nd pick on a lesser EDGE talent. Of course that would mean picking a lesser CB talent as well to round out the secondary in a later round.

When Jackson slipped to GB in the 2nd round, the die was cast. Gute saw his chance to shore up the back end of our pass defense with the top two CB's on his board. Really, who can argue with that?

Bottom line is: Yeah, I might have done a few things differently after selecting Jackson, but I'm not going to bitch Gute out preemptively. I'll wait to see if things pan out in September. If they don't, I'll use my fan's prerogative and bitch at him then. LOL

Your defense of the Round One and Two Picks has merit.

A lot of this and an analytical determination is depended on a choice of strategies (options).

[woodbuck27]

https://www.packersnews.com/videos/sports/2018/04/29/packers-stay-true-their-board-instant-reaction-packers-draft/562278002/

Aaron Nagler and Ryan Wood give their initial impressions of the work Brian Gutekunst did in his first draft and look at what still needs to be done. Packers News

Comment woodbuck27:

So Rome wasn't built in a day !

The Packers didn't address either Pass Rush nor the ** RHS of their OL ** and are obviously going there ** with RT Bryan Bulaga this Season.

There's still concern at WR.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Gute went into this draft intending to shore up our pass defense. You do that by fixing the front 7 and/or the back 4. IMO there were only 3 studs in this draft that could be difference-makers in the front 7: Chubb, Vea and Payne. Chubb was out of reach. Tampa took Vea with the 12th pick. The Redskins took Payne with the 13th pick. So, rather than spend his top pick on a questionable difference-maker like Landry, he decided to spend it on his #1-rated CB. I can't argue with that.

Some will say he should have then spent his 2nd pick on a lesser EDGE talent. Of course that would mean picking a lesser CB talent as well to round out the secondary in a later round.

When Jackson slipped to GB in the 2nd round, the die was cast. Gute saw his chance to shore up the back end of our pass defense with the top two CB's on his board. Really, who can argue with that?

Bottom line is: Yeah, I might have done a few things differently after selecting Jackson, but I'm not going to bitch Gute out preemptively. I'll wait to see if things pan out in September. If they don't, I'll use my fan's prerogative and bitch at him then. LOL

Kind of funny that some would have been perfectly content if the Packers took Landry at #14 over what Gute did. I would have been okay with it a few weeks ago, but the more I studied Landry the more I would have rather traded down. I still think he's a decent prospect, but he's a bit short for a 3-4 EDGE and I got a bit of a Jamal Reynolds vibe from him. In retrospect drafting Landry at #14 would have been a huge reach.

[woodbuck27]

Kind of funny that some would have been perfectly content if the Packers took Landry at #14 over what Gute did. I would have been okay with it a few weeks ago, but the more I studied Landry the more I would have rather traded down. I still think he's a decent prospect, but he's a bit short for a 3-4 EDGE and I got a bit of a Jamal Reynolds vibe from him. In retrospect drafting Landry at #14 would have been a huge reach.

Yes.

[esoxx]

Assuming you're right, the backend was in terrible shape. So your conclusion is that they should draft elsewhere then, right?

Go back and read what you wrote and get back to me.

[pbmax]

These are rookies. The back end was a cluster. How do you not address a secondary with King as your only barely legit starter (between being a rook and missing games, how much do we really know about even him?), and two barely stop gap guys waiting in the wings in Williams and House? The 3rd round LB may be raw but he actually may play a select few snaps where his speed could be an advantage. Maybe he's never more than that, but that's likely an upgrade over Ryan on passing downs, no? When you have 3 7th round picks, what's the harm in drafting the long snapper. He probably has a better chance to stick than any other 7th rounder. As far as pass rush, if Matthews continues to decline, and others don't mature/step up it will be a bad year in that area. And as night follows day, only 40-50% of these picks will turn out well, and the ones who suck will be endlessly compared to cherry-picked choices from the 31 other teams. That's the nature of this all. But seriously, people's expectations are unrealistic. Like every draft, every year.


Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.


Couldn't agree more. Same can be said for the entire D side of the ball over the past few years. Datone Jones, Randall, Rollins, HaHa, Adams, Worthy, Fackrell, Thornton, Bradford, etc..

All of these things have gone wrong. Bad draft picks, bad personnel decisions, bad coaching and repeat mistakes. I can excuse a couple of these things. Young players will have trouble communicating on D if its complex and Dom certainly could be. You can be a great drafter and still blow half your draft picks.

Capers and Thompson together could not piece together the right young talent. Matthews is the only guy who shines through. Even Raji got moved through multiple positions. Hawk got moved to a spot he couldn't play well (maybe due to leg injuries but whatever); but Bob Sanders had to go, so OK. Problem was that his replacement never arrived. Injuries took over the team for two years before McCarthy and Ball got that sports science guys to put out that fire.

As odd as it sounds, Thompson was better at finding what Dom needed in FA and UDFA than in the draft. There is seriously something weird about the Packer model in that case. It also makes it REALLY hard to find top end pass rush. Those guys are available as often as you see Brady in the sixth round.

So, temporarily at least, I would endorse anything that differs from the Capers/Thompson approach. FA and Wilkerson perhaps was one, 2 CB who do not meet the traditional Packer CB mold perhaps are another. Finding players to play a scheme should have been a larger priority earlier. We'll see if it works out better now. The weird thing is I don't know if this is actually all that much different than Thompsonism. He signed Peppers quickly. He drafted 2 CBs who had knocks against them. I don't know if we will rue the pass rush we bypassed in this draft. This could all be a comically bad streak.

What I do hold against all of them are letting Hayward, Hyde go. Maybe Burnett too, though age and injury play a role with him. These guys are the rare Packer castoffs that goes right to an immediate starting role elsewhere and that means the Packers missed out. Finding talent is hard, playing the talent you have should be easy.

There will be two more test cases; Randall and Rollins. We'll get to see Randall this year. I have no idea what we will find out about Rollins this year but he has to stay healthy to get an answer.

[woodbuck27]

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

CB Quenton Rollins:

http://www.packers.com/team/roster/Quinten-Rollins/29cfa503-b368-4447-a067-8cdc94ae32c8

He was dressed for 'only' six games in 2017 with 1 Start.

In 3 Seasons and 33 Games Quenton Rollins defended 'only' 16 passes. He had 91 Total Tackles and 3 Picks.

One way to protect against a weal Secondary is to have a solid Pass Rush.

On all accounts it was clear that the NO. 1 Priority and elevating a weak defense was to address Pass Rush. That was ignored and we now have two Top Draft Pics and Rookies at CB.

It's certainly fair to question that Draft strategy of ignoring that NO. 1 Priority and an improved Pass Rush.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-player-feature/article-1/Young-cornerbacks-key-pieces-to-Packers-future/18bf6ab4-7268-4bb4-9cd4-4ec593dad445

Young cornerbacks key pieces to Packers' future

Posted Feb 6, 2017

Mike Spofford packers.com senior writer @MikeSpofford

Comment woodbuck27:

So it's reset and load up again at CB as demonstrated by Brian Gutekunst's first Draft.

[wist43]

The thing that worries me about what Gute said was, "... you don't fill holes, you just draft really good football players".

That's TT through and through... The problem is - when you miss on those "really good football players", which is often, you still have the original hole you started with, plus the wasted pick of the "really good football player" that turned out to be really bad.

What next?? Montravius Adams converting to OLB??

It's looking like we changed the name plate on the GM door, but it's largely business as usual at 1265.

[Brandon494]

Josh Jackson had too much value to pass on in the 2nd round and Saints trade offer was also too good to pass up. I trust Pettine schemes to create a better pass rush but he needed better cover guys to pull it off...well now he has them. You also have to factor in how the D-line will be better this year with Wilkerson, improved Clark, and Daniels won’t be double teamed as much. Clay isn’t the player he once was and Perry is injury prone but both are still above average players. Hoping Biegel can provide some depth as well.

[Fritz]

Shake this Fritz:

Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner -Up and 3 X 3rd Place.

Some of us actually do know what we're talking and complaining about.

If you screw the pooch the pooch snarls.

https://lunaphyte.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/angry-dog.jpg


Well, Woody, you know I like to shake your cage, cuz half the time I don't know what the hell you're saying, but I did notice that last year you advocated for Dalvin Cook, who really looked good before he got hurt. So I respect your ability to internet-scout these players.

Me, I just come up with opinions by reading three snippets online and then getting really pissed when the Packerss don't draft the guys I almost arbitrarily latched on to.

[Maxie the Taxi]

The thing that worries me about what Gute said was, "... you don't fill holes, you just draft really good football players".

That's TT through and through... The problem is - when you miss on those "really good football players", which is often, you still have the original hole you started with, plus the wasted pick of the "really good football player" that turned out to be really bad.

What next?? Montravius Adams converting to OLB??

It's looking like we changed the name plate on the GM door, but it's largely business as usual at 1265.When a GM says he drafts Best Player Available, I assume its BS meant for public consumption. Need is ALWAYS the elephant in the room. You ignore it at your own peril. If you're dying of thirst and you're faced with a choice between water and filet mignon, it only stands to reason that need -- not just the best food available -- is going to play a part in your decision.

First of all, how exactly do you determine which player is "best?" For example, if you had the 1st pick in this year's draft, who do you pick? Who is the BPA? The dilemma doesn't necessarily get easier the deeper you get into the draft. You're always comparing apples to oranges. Moreover, value and need are not exactly objectively quantifiable commodities. Scouts, head coaches and GM's each evaluate need and talent in the context of their own perspective, game philosophy, judgement and biases. GM's are like entrepreneurs in business. They've got to take all the varying possibilities into account and pull the trigger.

Gute was blowing smoke.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Josh Jackson had too much value to pass on in the 2nd round and Saints trade offer was also too good to pass up. I trust Pettine schemes to create a better pass rush but he needed better cover guys to pull it off...well now he has them. You also have to factor in how the D-line will be better this year with Wilkerson, improved Clark, and Daniels won’t be double teamed as much. Clay isn’t the player he once was and Perry is injury prone but both are still above average players. Hoping Biegel can provide some depth as well.Yup, and it's easier to find a really good situational EDGE pass rusher in a crop of UDFA's, then it is to find a really good CB.

[wist43]

When a GM says he drafts Best Player Available, I assume its BS meant for public consumption. Need is ALWAYS the elephant in the room. You ignore it at your own peril. If you're dying of thirst and you're faced with a choice between water and filet mignon, it only stands to reason that need -- not just the best food available -- is going to play a part in your decision.

First of all, how exactly do you determine which player is "best?" For example, if you had the 1st pick in this year's draft, who do you pick? Who is the BPA? The dilemma doesn't necessarily get easier the deeper you get into the draft. You're always comparing apples to oranges. Moreover, value and need are not exactly objectively quantifiable commodities. Scouts, head coaches and GM's each evaluate need and talent in the context of their own perspective, game philosophy, judgement and biases. GM's are like entrepreneurs in business. They've got to take all the varying possibilities into account and pull the trigger.

Gute was blowing smoke.

I would agree that most GM/Coach speak is BS; however, the GM speak in Green Bay is pretty consistent and backed up by the facts. The Packers haven't cared about "filling holes" since TT took over as GM. They might throw a spitball at a position of need later in the draft, but when they have a chance to fill a hole higher in the draft, they don't think twice about completely ignoring the position for some headscratching pick that usually flames out as a bust.

Case in point would be picking Demarious Randall over Benardrick McKinney in 2015, and then throwing a spitball at the ILB position later in the draft by picking Jake Ryan.

Randall is history, Ryan sucks elephant tits, and McKinney has played at a near pro-bowl level. So the Texans filled a position of need for them and can get on with their lives - while we are still floundering around with 2 critical positions of need on the defense.

2 years later, we have to spend our top 3 picks in the draft on CB and ILB - and the ILB is as likely to be a bust as any player the Packers have ever picked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get the 2 CB picks... not bitching about that.

What I'm up in arms about is completely ignoring pass rush with the Burks pick on. As I said, next year, we're all going to be screaming about pass rush - and we'll likely be playing wack-a-mole in the later rounds again b/c Gute refused to even address the position this year.

Fackrell can't play - yet the Packers told us he was a "good football player" when they drafted him; the Carl Bradford nonsense; Vince Biegel, etc...

Over 10 years of this crap... the list of failures runs very, very long - yet they keep doing the same thing over and over again. I was hoping Gute would put an end to this shit, but apparently not. That is very disappointing.

[Pugger]

Whatever happened to Quentin Rollins? You know, that 2nd round pick the Pack invested in 3 years ago? Not even a mention. Is he still on the team or do we forget him since there's been so many wasted picks on this position in the recent past?

Way too much draft capital put into this position for such crap results.

Well for one he was green as grass coming in with only, what, 1 season of collegiate football? He wasn't a burner and that Achilles injury will do him no favors.

[Pugger]

Gute went into this draft intending to shore up our pass defense. You do that by fixing the front 7 and/or the back 4. IMO there were only 3 studs in this draft that could be difference-makers in the front 7: Chubb, Vea and Payne. Chubb was out of reach. Tampa took Vea with the 12th pick. The Redskins took Payne with the 13th pick. So, rather than spend his top pick on a questionable difference-maker like Landry, he decided to spend it on his #1-rated CB. I can't argue with that.

Some will say he should have then spent his 2nd pick on a lesser EDGE talent. Of course that would mean picking a lesser CB talent as well to round out the secondary in a later round.

When Jackson slipped to GB in the 2nd round, the die was cast. Gute saw his chance to shore up the back end of our pass defense with the top two CB's on his board. Really, who can argue with that?

Bottom line is: Yeah, I might have done a few things differently after selecting Jackson, but I'm not going to bitch Gute out preemptively. I'll wait to see if things pan out in September. If they don't, I'll use my fan's prerogative and bitch at him then. LOL

Yes, Gute could have taken a lesser player in the 2nd round and reached for need but that isn't good draft strategy. Some talking heads are saying Jackson might end up being better than Alexander.

[pbmax]

Josh Jackson had too much value to pass on in the 2nd round and Saints trade offer was also too good to pass up. I trust Pettine schemes to create a better pass rush but he needed better cover guys to pull it off...well now he has them. You also have to factor in how the D-line will be better this year with Wilkerson, improved Clark, and Daniels won’t be double teamed as much. Clay isn’t the player he once was and Perry is injury prone but both are still above average players. Hoping Biegel can provide some depth as well.

I think this largely holds for his first year. He scheme for the Packers and the players in it will be new to film for 4 weeks, probably more. Given some adjustments, it can easily take a year to scheme against his pressure packages.

After that, Packers need pass rush in the worst way. Decent chance Mathews and Wilkerson won't be back, making a poor situation worse.

Right now I am placing a lot of hope with Jerry Montgomery, who I have decided made Kenny Clark a stud.

[red]

The thing that worries me about what Gute said was, "... you don't fill holes, you just draft really good football players".

That's TT through and through... The problem is - when you miss on those "really good football players", which is often, you still have the original hole you started with, plus the wasted pick of the "really good football player" that turned out to be really bad.

What next?? Montravius Adams converting to OLB??

It's looking like we changed the name plate on the GM door, but it's largely business as usual at 1265.

i saw that too and hated it

if youre not suppose to fill holes in the draft, then that means you needed to fill them in free agency or trade for someone.

he didn't

[Pugger]

I would agree that most GM/Coach speak is BS; however, the GM speak in Green Bay is pretty consistent and backed up by the facts. The Packers haven't cared about "filling holes" since TT took over as GM. They might throw a spitball at a position of need later in the draft, but when they have a chance to fill a hole higher in the draft, they don't think twice about completely ignoring the position for some headscratching pick that usually flames out as a bust.

Case in point would be picking Demarious Randall over Benardrick McKinney in 2015, and then throwing a spitball at the ILB position later in the draft by picking Jake Ryan.

Randall is history, Ryan sucks elephant tits, and McKinney has played at a near pro-bowl level. So the Texans filled a position of need for them and can get on with their lives - while we are still floundering around with 2 critical positions of need on the defense.

2 years later, we have to spend our top 3 picks in the draft on CB and ILB - and the ILB is as likely to be a bust as any player the Packers have ever picked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get the 2 CB picks... not bitching about that.

What I'm up in arms about is completely ignoring pass rush with the Burks pick on. As I said, next year, we're all going to be screaming about pass rush - and we'll likely be playing wack-a-mole in the later rounds again b/c Gute refused to even address the position this year.

Fackrell can't play - yet the Packers told us he was a "good football player" when they drafted him; the Carl Bradford nonsense; Vince Biegel, etc...

Over 10 years of this crap... the list of failures runs very, very long - yet they keep doing the same thing over and over again. I was hoping Gute would put an end to this shit, but apparently not. That is very disappointing.

After Chubb this wasn't the deepest EDGE class in NFL draft history. From what I'm hearing next year is supposed to be a darn good EDGE class so getting an extra 1st round pick should bode well for us and we can finally fix that position for the foreseeable future.

[Brandon494]

I think this largely holds for his first year. He scheme for the Packers and the players in it will be new to film for 4 weeks, probably more. Given some adjustments, it can easily take a year to scheme against his pressure packages.

After that, Packers need pass rush in the worst way. Decent chance Mathews and Wilkerson won't be back, making a poor situation worse.

Right now I am placing a lot of hope with Jerry Montgomery, who I have decided made Kenny Clark a stud.

Thankfully we’ll have cap room and two first round picks next season to address that issue.

[Pugger]

i saw that too and hated it

if youre not suppose to fill holes in the draft, then that means you needed to fill them in free agency or trade for someone.

he didn't

I thought he tried to address the 2 biggest holes on the D ---> the secondary with those corners in the first 2 rounds and the pass rush with Wilkerson.

[pbmax]

When a GM says he drafts Best Player Available, I assume its BS meant for public consumption. Need is ALWAYS the elephant in the room. You ignore it at your own peril. If you're dying of thirst and you're faced with a choice between water and filet mignon, it only stands to reason that need -- not just the best food available -- is going to play a part in your decision.

First of all, how exactly do you determine which player is "best?" For example, if you had the 1st pick in this year's draft, who do you pick? Who is the BPA? The dilemma doesn't necessarily get easier the deeper you get into the draft. You're always comparing apples to oranges. Moreover, value and need are not exactly objectively quantifiable commodities. Scouts, head coaches and GM's each evaluate need and talent in the context of their own perspective, game philosophy, judgement and biases. GM's are like entrepreneurs in business. They've got to take all the varying possibilities into account and pull the trigger.

Gute was blowing smoke.

Great point.

Woody was quoting NFL.com that put grades into a number with a single digit past the decimal point. It scales to 6 or 7 I believe. Even if the underlying logic of the score has true value, there isn't enough sensitivity to tease out early Round 2 from mid or late Round 2.

Remember those pictures of the Cowboys draft board? No grades, just round values. When they say they go by the board, it means not reaching. But the choice has to come down to need.

[Brandon494]

If someone would have told me before the draft we would draft 2 of the top 3 CBs with our first two picks plus pick up a 2019 1st round pick I would have asked them could I buy the rest of their weed off them. People find a thing to complain about, this was A+ move. We could have gone pass rusher with the 3rd round pick but we needed someone to replace Burnett. Burks won’t play safety but he’ll replace Burnett at LB in nickel and dime packages to cover TEs and RBs. Josh Jones could have been that guy but feel they want to keep him mainly at safety plus Burks can grow into a full time starter at ILB.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I would agree that most GM/Coach speak is BS; however, the GM speak in Green Bay is pretty consistent and backed up by the facts. The Packers haven't cared about "filling holes" since TT took over as GM. They might throw a spitball at a position of need later in the draft, but when they have a chance to fill a hole higher in the draft, they don't think twice about completely ignoring the position for some headscratching pick that usually flames out as a bust.

Case in point would be picking Demarious Randall over Benardrick McKinney in 2015, and then throwing a spitball at the ILB position later in the draft by picking Jake Ryan.

Randall is history, Ryan sucks elephant tits, and McKinney has played at a near pro-bowl level. So the Texans filled a position of need for them and can get on with their lives - while we are still floundering around with 2 critical positions of need on the defense.

2 years later, we have to spend our top 3 picks in the draft on CB and ILB - and the ILB is as likely to be a bust as any player the Packers have ever picked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get the 2 CB picks... not bitching about that.

What I'm up in arms about is completely ignoring pass rush with the Burks pick on. As I said, next year, we're all going to be screaming about pass rush - and we'll likely be playing wack-a-mole in the later rounds again b/c Gute refused to even address the position this year.

Fackrell can't play - yet the Packers told us he was a "good football player" when they drafted him; the Carl Bradford nonsense; Vince Biegel, etc...

Over 10 years of this crap... the list of failures runs very, very long - yet they keep doing the same thing over and over again. I was hoping Gute would put an end to this shit, but apparently not. That is very disappointing.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. BUT -- and this is a big but -- to say that the Packers "haven't cared about 'filling holes' since TT took over as GM" is jumping the shark. I continue to believe that "need" is ALWAYS the elephant in the room.

I've followed the draft pretty closely the last few years and invariably my list of Packer "needs" pretty much matched what TT tried to satisfy. Sure, you can cherry-pick instances like the Randall pick that seems to run against the grain, but there are also a bunch of TT picks that run with the grain. AND there is always another side to the story. I wasn't sold on McKinney either. My guy was Stephone Anthony. My bad. Anthony was a "can't miss" guy that missed badly. But many Packerrats wanted TT to pick Eric Kendricks. Not too shabby. But why Randall? I couldn't figure out that one either when guys like Jalen Collins and Eric Rowe were still available. Maybe TT was trying to fill holes, but he just screwed up and bet on the wrong guy.

By the way, I couldn't figure out the Rollins choice either. Consensus opinion was that Rollins was green as hell but with "potential." Again, TT just bet on the wrong guy. Like I said earlier, this isn't at an exact science.

For what it's worth, I was also a big Fackrell fan (not Bradford though!). I still like Fackrell and am not ready to give up on him. I'm counting on him thriving in Pettine's system. But then what do I know? :-)

I think TT's biggest problem was his rep as a draft genius. He wasn't. But because of his rep the Packers IMO many times kept his bad decisions on the roster way too long.

[red]

I thought he tried to address the 2 biggest holes on the D ---> the secondary with those corners in the first 2 rounds and the pass rush with Wilkerson.

wilkerson hasn't had double digit sacks in 3 years.

plus our pass rush comes from the OLB, not the D-line

although as i write this i'm remembering we have a new DC and maybe a new scheme, so maybe we will get some pass rush from the line

but still, we have 2 legit OLBs on the team. both are injuries waiting to happen

[wpony]

I think why we drafted the way we did was because of out new defensive coordinator hes already had enough time to look at the tapes and really decide where the weakness are I mean under capers we kept letting people go who started for other teams and now we have the new DC that knows what he needs for his defense to work. I am going to give Gute a few yrs before I judge his draftees kips ratted us a A- so we didnt to to bad. in the worlds eye LOL

[red]

I think why we drafted the way we did was because of out new defensive coordinator hes already had enough time to look at the tapes and really decide where the weakness are I mean under capers we kept letting people go who started for other teams and now we have the new DC that knows what he needs for his defense to work. I am going to give Gute a few yrs before I judge his draftees kips ratted us a A- so we didnt to to bad. in the worlds eye LOL

well, most on here have seen every snap of every game and we can tell the new DC that we need pass rush

even if they manage to stay healthy, mathews and perry don't bring consistent pass rushing

[The Shadow]

I think what often gets lost in the pass rush conversation is the potentially huge difference the new DC will make. I always thought that Capers had gotten way too predictable (When a LB or DB came up to the line before the snap, they ALWAYS seemed to blitz; never backed off).
Maybe finding new ways to utilize our players better will make things better.

[mraynrand]

If someone would have told me before the draft we would draft 2 of the top 3 CBs with our first two picks plus pick up a 2019 1st round pick I would have asked them could I buy the rest of their weed off them.

:)

[George Cumby]

I think what often gets lost in the pass rush conversation is the potentially huge difference the new DC will make. I always thought that Capers had gotten way too predictable (When a LB or DB came up to the line before the snap, they ALWAYS seemed to blitz; never backed off).
Maybe finding new ways to utilize our players better will make things better.

Capers blitz schemes were worn out long ago. Opposing teams knew who was coming and from where since about 2011

[Zool]

People find a thing to complain about.

Fuck yes they do, and negativity breeds negativity. It becomes normal to dislike things if that’s all you ever think about.

[pbmax]

Capers blitz schemes were worn out long ago. Opposing teams knew who was coming and from where since about 2011

You know this is true when the beat writers don't screw it up in the paper. That indicates time to draw it up again.

[Pugger]

nm

[Pugger]

well, most on here have seen every snap of every game and we can tell the new DC that we need pass rush

even if they manage to stay healthy, mathews and perry don't bring consistent pass rushing

What EDGE guy did you want us to take? Davenport? Landry wasn't worth taking at 14 or 18 and was long gone by the time our pick came in the 2nd round and corner was a need.

[George Cumby]

For the sake of argument, what if Guts selected two or three edge guys and only paid a passing interest to the back end. What would the nattering nabobs be saying then?

[The Shadow]

The scheme, the scheme....

[mission]

I think what often gets lost in the pass rush conversation is the potentially huge difference the new DC will make. I always thought that Capers had gotten way too predictable (When a LB or DB came up to the line before the snap, they ALWAYS seemed to blitz; never backed off).
Maybe finding new ways to utilize our players better will make things better.

True, but how is this even possible? lol
#FireCapers was huge, everyone had personal best performances against the Packers. We hated Capers for a reason, guys and gals. A lot of the "this player can't do that and that guy is only this" gets thrown out the window with a change like this. There will be breakout seasons for some guys on defense this year and most of it will be due to the change at DC (see Hyde and Heyward). Even if they aren't THAT good, we're going to think they're VERY good after the first however-many weeks of the season. Whether that holds up through the end of the year will come down to if it's actually legit or just un-scouted looks and enthusiasm for something new (and of course, injuries).

[gbgary]

hopefully these corners will make the qb hold the ball an extra second or two (through jamming and disrupting routes) to let the pass rush get to the qb.

[red]

What EDGE guy did you want us to take? Davenport? Landry wasn't worth taking at 14 or 18 and was long gone by the time our pick came in the 2nd round and corner was a need.

so there were only 3 guys TOTAL in the whole draft that can rush the qb?

i like how a few days ago half the board wanted landry. now hes a shit player because we passed him up twice and he went in the second

guess what kind of pass rusher we're gonna get with our 2 late first round picks next year? a guy like landry, IF we're lucky, cause next year doesn't look like a big year for 3-4 OLBs. and the couple that are good or gonna go way before we pick

but you want to play your usual fucking game of making everyone nae who we would have taken. how bout you go ahead and name the pass rusher you think we should take in the draft next year, go ahead. shouldn't be hard for the demanding queen to name her own players for once

who are we drafting in the late 20s next year that will turn our pass rush around?

[woodbuck27]

I thought he tried to address the 2 biggest holes on the D ---> the secondary with those corners in the first 2 rounds and the pass rush with Wilkerson.

Hi Pugger:

How many years do you for see it being before the Packers resemble being a legitimate Super Bowl Contender?

The Second Pick we have from New Orleans in Round One next Season. Where in Round one do you envision that Pick being?

What did Green Bay do in this Draft to address the obvious weakness we now are seeing at WR?

[mraynrand]

so there were only 3 guys TOTAL in the whole draft that can rush the qb?

i like how a few days ago half the board wanted landry. now hes a shit player because we passed him up twice and he went in the second

who are we drafting in the late 20s next year that will turn our pass rush around?

It's just a difference of opinion. I'm still on board that having a great pass rush can cover for a weak secondary. But a so-so pass rush will expose the same. It really comes down to how good Landry and Davenport really are at their position versus the DBs at theirs. N.O. obviously had Davenport rated higher and the Packers benefit from that - unless Davenport turns out be exceptional. Landry also may be decent, but his drop does reveal how he was valued by the whole league.

So the Packers either felt that they had enough for pass rush, were more worried about the state of the defensive backfield, had the DBs they took rated higher than the pass rushers, or a bit of all of the above. Those wanted the pass rushers may be proven right. The League may be wrong about Landry and he may be a pro-bowl level guy. Davenport could be Peppers. Either way you go, you can't necessarily fill every need with great starters. The Packers had to prioritize and make choices. We just won't know for sure until we see these guys play.

[mraynrand]

How many years do you for see it being before the Packers resemble being a legitimate Super Bowl Contender?

They are there right now. I see them right around the 5th best team, but that puts them in striking range. Some things will have to fall into place for them to get to the Superbowl, however.

[wist43]

They are there right now. I see them right around the 5th best team, but that puts them in striking range. Some things will have to fall into place for them to get to the Superbowl, however.

We're not even the best team in our division - that would be the Vikings. Worse, it's not even close. And last time I checked, the Lions waxed our asses 38-11.

We're not in the same league as the Rams or Philly either.

Seattle is better, the Panthers are better, the Saints are better... that's 6 teams just in our conference we're looking up at.

New England, Pittsburgh, Jax, and Houston are all better in the AFC - with a few more to boot probably.

Put the Kool-aid down ayn.

[The Shadow]

That's pretty pessimistic. Pettine could very well make a huge difference.

[Zool]

Houston was horrendous last year. They lost their qb. Guess who else lost their ability and sucked?

The Lions will never be good. The Vikings are the definition of fart in the wind. I disagree that either Seattle or Carolina is better but it’s probably splitting hairs. Shit is a not as gloomy as you always want it to be. You love that negativity.

[Pugger]

Hi Pugger:

How many years do you for see it being before the Packers resemble being a legitimate Super Bowl Contender?

The Second Pick we have from New Orleans in Round One next Season. Where in Round one do you envision that Pick being?

What did Green Bay do in this Draft to address the obvious weakness we now are seeing at WR?

If Pettine can get this bunch to play like he did with what he had with the Jets and the Bills we will be a legit contender pretty darn quick with Rodgers under center.

NO will be a good team this coming year. They were one fluke play in MN away from the NFCC game. Even if it is a late round 1 pick it is still a #1. From all accounts 2019 should be a good year for EDGE players. Hopefully we can shore up that position with younger players instead of Mo, Clay and Perry going forward.

This wasn't a great year for WRs either. Ridley was probably the only guy with a first round grade. Sutton is pretty good but was gone before we picked in the 2nd round. We'll never know if Gutey was interested. The 3 kids we drafted look big and fast but perhaps raw. I suppose Gutey copied something TT did last year at RB = take a couple three WRs late and see if one sticks.

[smuggler]

Here's the really confusing thing about this draft to me... If that offer from the Seahawks was available, why didn't the Saints trade up to 18? Did they really feel like Davenport was that much more valuable than Edmunds? I suppose it's possible that Seattle was only willing to trade back because Edmunds and Davenport had both been selected. Or maybe Seattle lost interest when the Chargers scooped up Derwin. But based on what I have heard, Seattle was desperate to pick up additional selections, so I'm not sure if that's the case.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Now that I know more about Pettine's system, the CB choices make sense. King was the only young CB we had who fit his needs. Obviously, he didn't think Rollins or the other young guys, like Waters and Hawkins, could fill the bill. He needed a really quick cover guy (Alexander) to cover the Stephan Diggs of the world and a physical cover guy to handle the stronger, possession receiver types like Sanu. King will cover the taller guys like Julio Jones. Apparently, Pettine blitzes a lot from many different positions, so he need really good man-to-man cover guys on the back end. At least that's my understanding.

[Joemailman]

Here's the really confusing thing about this draft to me... If that offer from the Seahawks was available, why didn't the Saints trade up to 18? Did they really feel like Davenport was that much more valuable than Edmunds? I suppose it's possible that Seattle was only willing to trade back because Edmunds and Davenport had both been selected. Or maybe Seattle lost interest when the Chargers scooped up Derwin. But based on what I have heard, Seattle was desperate to pick up additional selections, so I'm not sure if that's the case.

My guess is Saints REALLY wanted Davenport, and felt the Packers would take Davenport unless they made the trade with the Packers. A lot of people did seem to thing Davenport would be the Packers pick.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I agree with Rand and Shadow. With a healthy Rodgers and the addition of the fast, young WR's and Graham, the offense will be potent. The OLine has to come together though and hold up its own.

On defense I'm counting on Pettine's system to create the pass rush with the guys we have. The key is all the young guys in the secondary have to play up to their billing. If they do, we'll be a top 10 defense. If they don't, if they don't improve their tackling from last year -- especially the secondary -- we'll be bottom-feeding again on defense.

Of course, there are always injuries. We don't have a lot of quality depth.

There are still a lot of ifs...but no more than other teams in our division.

[mraynrand]

And last time I checked, the Lions waxed our asses 38-11.

Dumb take. Must be the drugs.

[mraynrand]

The Vikings are the definition of fart in the wind.

I disagree. Right now, they look better than the Packers. Philly, MN, ATL, N.O., Rams, Pack from the NFC all will be competitive. Some other teams may be much improved - Chicago, unfortunately. Not sure about Detroit because Cheat progeny do not do so well on their own.

[wist43]

We'll be better guys... and that still won't be enough - that's the point.

As I said, my hope was to reload for a 2019-20 run... I think spitting on pass rush altogether, puts us back another year, and that's assuming the DB's work out - which I think they will.

Looking ahead, we're going to be dead in the water at OLB next year, so another major position rebuild is in our future - which takes time to develop.

My concern is time... Rodgers clock is ticking.

[Fritz]

We'll be better guys... and that still won't be enough - that's the point.

As I said, my hope was to reload for a 2019-20 run... I think spitting on pass rush altogether, puts us back another year, and that's assuming the DB's work out - which I think they will.

Looking ahead, we're going to be dead in the water at OLB next year, so another major position rebuild is in our future - which takes time to develop.

My concern is time... Rodgers clock is ticking.


This team needs blue chippers, diffference-makers. They must not have thought Edmunds or James or Davenport fit that bill (unless they crazily think Josh Jones will be almost as good as Derwin James will be). I hope they're right, but I'm dubious. And getting two picks next year in the 20's only means two Dante Joneses, most likely. But we can hope. It's all we got.

[Maxie the Taxi]

This team needs blue chippers, diffference-makers. They must not have thought Edmunds or James or Davenport fit that bill (unless they crazily think Josh Jones will be almost as good as Derwin James will be). I hope they're right, but I'm dubious. And getting two picks next year in the 20's only means two Dante Joneses, most likely. But we can hope. It's all we got.
I'm hoping they got a difference-maker in Jackson, maybe Alexander.

[pbmax]

I'm hoping they got a difference-maker in Jackson, maybe Alexander.

I'll settle for competent on defense. A difference maker in pass rush would be icing on the cake.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'll settle for competent on defense. A difference maker in pass rush would be icing on the cake.

This. Too often the Packers looked lost on defense under Capers. I'm really putting a lot of stock in Pettine's scheme and ability to make the defense better.

[Deputy Nutz]

Here is where the Packers FAILED in this Draft.

Packerrats obviously recognized the need in this Draft to have as a FIRST PRIORITY to address Pass Rush.

That TRUTH is supported in out First Round MOCK POLL where the majority voted for EDGE and either Harold Landry or Marcus Davenport.

**A rule of thumb and the Draft is to address priorities and Draft "Inside outside and Front to Back"**

Yes the Packers Roster sucks at the Defensive Backs (S and CB) and have a serious Issue and Offense and WR.

The serious 'NO. 1 Need' was to address a lousy PASS RUSH.

What did the Packer BRASS do:

They traded out of a NO. 14 Slot to what...NO. 27...nonsense !

The Panicked and moved back to NO. 18 and selected a CB.

They then in Round Two doubled down and again selected a CB.

That was 'a DOUBLE ERROR' and **.

Those two errors in Rounds One and Two and trading away their original Round Three Pick at NO.76 were obvious ERRORS.

There could after that be NO RECOVERY.

All the above is predicated on addressing the need and Pass Rush with 'a serious addition in this Draft'.

Obviously Packer GM Brian Gutekunst stayed true to his Board and addressed a serious deficiency in the Packer Secondary or Pass Protection and The CB Position.

Different people and different priorities.

Brian Gutekunst is the Green Bay Packer GM, 'trumps' I'm a Green Bay Packer fan.

First the number one need was to address the lack of defensive backs on this roster. The Packers have too much money wrapped up in edge rushers to invest in higher end talent in the draft. They are holding to the idea that Matthews and Perry will combine for 20 sacks and that their young talent is going to take the next step. Packers have no such investment at cornerback. They have aging retreads and one 2nd year player with any potential. Thompson shit the bed three years ago with Randall and Rollins. It was time to fish and cut bait and Gute did that in the secondary.

Now I did not like the trade out of 14, greater potential at that pick than at 18. I liked the pick of Alexander, but that doesn't mean I don't think he can be a bust. I like backing the pick up with Jackson, two different type corners.

The Packers needed to also get more athletic at the linebacker position overall and I really don't think they did that. Oren Burks is athletic but he isn't a good football player at the inside linebacker position.

I thought the Packers receiving corps lacked some depth, but no one they drafted is going to step on the field and be a better pro than the guys they already have. Receiver is a position that takes time to develop and at least one of those picks is going to be cut. As I liked the pick of Jackson backing up the 1st round pick drafting 3 receivers was over kill, but it was late in the draft so who cares.

Not really addressing the offensive line was a big question mark. Again they seem to want to value athleticism at the position along with position flexibility and they end up drafting a very weak non aggressive offensive lineman from a one dimensional college offense. On paper and on film I am just not impressed with the pick.

I thought this was a weird draft for the Packers. If their goal was to draft good football players I still don't understand passing on Davenport, Edmunds, or James.

[Tony Oday]

As long as AR stays healthy we easily win the division and there isn't a team that can hang with us.

[wist43]

This. Too often the Packers looked lost on defense under Capers. I'm really putting a lot of stock in Pettine's scheme and ability to make the defense better.

I agree... I think we're better just b/c Capers is gone - that said, we're pretty far behind Philly, Minnesota, et al, and won't realistically compete for a SB this year, which moves us on to looking at next year.

And next year it is obvious we're going to have to rebuild the pass rush - with only 1 guy currently in the pipeline (Gilbert).

[gbgary]

I agree... I think we're better just b/c Capers is gone - that said, we're pretty far behind Philly, Minnesota, et al, and won't realistically compete for a SB this year, which moves us on to looking at next year.

And next year it is obvious we're going to have to rebuild the pass rush - with only 1 guy currently in the pipeline (Gilbert).

a new guy yelling at them will help but it will only go so far lol. building through the draft takes time, which the Packers don't have a lot off, but i think the cb problems may be fixed for a while. yup...it's all about pass rush next season in the draft and free agency. what will happen with clay? hmmm

[wist43]

As long as AR stays healthy we easily win the division and there isn't a team that can hang with us.

Please stop drinking your own urine. You have holes in your head, and it is leaking out :glug:

[wist43]

a new guy yelling at them will help but it will only go so far lol. building through the draft takes time, which the Packers don't have a lot off, but i think the cb problems may be fixed for a while. yup...it's all about pass rush next season in the draft and free agency. what will happen with clay? hmmm

The new scheme can only help... dunderdummy was beyond predictable, and his idiotic 2-4 front in combination with his too complicated (at least too complicated for the young guys) back end was a recipe for disaster.

As for what Gute has done so far... I'm fully on board with the offseason, and what he did on Day 1 of the draft, and can live with Jackson in the 2nd round; but, doing nothing to get fresh blood in the pass rush pipeline is going to bite us over the next couple of years - unless they get uber-lucky and uncover a hidden gem off the UDFA market or miracle over miracles Biegel actually turns out to be a player.

Perry is about done, so is Mathews... I'm hoping Gilbert can progress. Ryan and Fackrell for sure need to be moved off the roster - Martinez is marginal.

That's one hell of a mess at LB.

[Tony Oday]

It's ok that you need to be a miserable ass.

[wpony]

they have already improved our defense just by getting rid of gunter

[Pugger]

so there were only 3 guys TOTAL in the whole draft that can rush the qb?

i like how a few days ago half the board wanted landry. now hes a shit player because we passed him up twice and he went in the second

guess what kind of pass rusher we're gonna get with our 2 late first round picks next year? a guy like landry, IF we're lucky, cause next year doesn't look like a big year for 3-4 OLBs. and the couple that are good or gonna go way before we pick

but you want to play your usual fucking game of making everyone nae who we would have taken. how bout you go ahead and name the pass rusher you think we should take in the draft next year, go ahead. shouldn't be hard for the demanding queen to name her own players for once

who are we drafting in the late 20s next year that will turn our pass rush around?

Next year with 2 first round picks perhaps we'll have that ammo to move up and take a real EDGE gem?

[pbmax]

Similar to a point a poster made in the last couple of days about the Super Bowl team:

from


Q: I don't get the criticism about not getting an OLB as if it was the biggest need. The DL is a strength, and the back end got significantly better. There are still two high-end starting OLBs on the roster. The need was based on uncertainty in depth, and getting a jar on the shelf to replace current starters.

A: I know the Packers were extremely deep at edge-rusher from 2014-16, but I’d argue their current depth chart is still better than the first four years under Dom Capers. Green Bay once started Dez Moses, Frank Zombo and Brad Jones opposite Clay Matthews. The Packers obviously need players to emerge behind Matthews and Nick Perry, but the cupboard isn’t bare. There are four guys returning with NFL experience from that OLB rotation.



Read more: http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-insider-inbox/article-1/It-takes-two-to-tango-on-defense/89ace6f3-29ff-40cc-abd7-c3a925e755b9#ixzz5EGG2BYzA

[Carolina_Packer]

unless they get uber-lucky and uncover a hidden gem off the UDFA market

Here is Packer UDFA with a familiar name. He's the grandson of former Colorado head coach Bill McCartney. Watch this and you'll have a new kid to root for to make the team. I hope he stays healthy and can show out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ROUD-ZMkk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZqT4H7booU

[HarveyWallbangers]

Seems like a great kid. Hope he makes it to camp. He also saved a guy's life.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/21353862/how-colorado-derek-mccartney-was-perfect-match-save-nebraska-fan-life

[pbmax]

McCarthy just praised Reggie Gilbert (highly). So he’s either going to make the jump or get cut at the end of summer.

[Smidgeon]

McCarthy just praised Reggie Gilbert (highly). So he’s either going to make the jump or get cut at the end of summer.

I have high hopes for him. He was showing up in games last year too.

[Bretsky]

McCarthy just praised Reggie Gilbert (highly). So he’s either going to make the jump or get cut at the end of summer.


A year ago MM was noting this is the deepest group of OLB"s he's had in Green Bay. It's a bad warning sign when he opens his mouth

[red]

A year ago MM was noting this is the deepest group of OLB"s he's had in Green Bay. It's a bad warning sign when he opens his mouth

so fat mike is the problem?

he's the one that keeps thinking we are just fine at OLB. year after year after year

[Bretsky]

so fat mike is the problem?

he's the one that keeps thinking we are just fine at OLB. year after year after year

Highly unlikely MM thinks we are strong there; he should just not talk about it

PS. I'll still take TJ Watt from last year.

We need to sign a pass rusher still

[Joemailman]

so fat mike is the problem?

he's the one that keeps thinking we are just fine at OLB. year after year after year

Well, I guess He could have said "We don't have shit at OLB, so don't blame me. Blame TT."

[HarveyWallbangers]

Reggie Gilbert showed serious flashes last preseason and late last year. I think the Packers might have found a player there.

[red]

Highly unlikely MM thinks we are strong there; he should just not talk about it

PS. I'll still take TJ Watt from last year.

We need to sign a pass rusher still
After this draft where we just drafted 2 more cbs in the first 2 rounds?

Yes, watt should have been the pick last year. 100% imo

[The Shadow]

Next year with 2 first round picks perhaps we'll have that ammo to move up and take a real EDGE gem?

Or a quarterback....

[red]

Next year with 2 first round picks perhaps we'll have that ammo to move up and take a real EDGE gem?

if things go the way most are predicting and the packers and the saints both have big years, we'll have enough ammo to only get up to around #12

or right about where we were this year when there weren't any elite pass rushers worth drafting there

[red]

lets play a fun numbers game, since this thread is doing pass rush vs coverage

SINCE 2014, 4 years ago

we have spent 1 first round pick on a safety (clinton dix)
one second round pick on a safety (josh jones)

2 first round picks on cbs (randall and alexander)
3 second round picks on cbs (rollins, king, jackson)

by my count, thats 7 first and second rounders for our secondry out of 10 picks total (kenny clark, spriggs, davante)

meanwhile at OLB, where the bulk of your pass rush in a 3-4 comes from

we spent a fourth on biegel last year, and in 2016 we drafted fuckerall in the 3rd. those are the only 2 picks in the top 4 rounds that we've spent on OLB since 2012 when we drafted perry in the first. 2 lousy picks in the mid rounds for the most important position in a 3-4, when the 2 starters are 2 of the most injury prone players on the team, if not the league

i don't care how good your secondary is. if a QB has 5, 6 or 7 (which we have seen way too often) seconds in the pocket, he's gonna find someone

[Zool]

How much capital is tied up in OLB currently on the GB roster? If Thing 1 and Thing 2 play 16 games this year, they will be fine.

[wist43]

lets play a fun numbers game, since this thread is doing pass rush vs coverage

SINCE 2014, 4 years ago

we have spent 1 first round pick on a safety (clinton dix)
one second round pick on a safety (josh jones)

2 first round picks on cbs (randall and alexander)
3 second round picks on cbs (rollins, king, jackson)

by my count, thats 7 first and second rounders for our secondry out of 10 picks total (kenny clark, spriggs, davante)

meanwhile at OLB, where the bulk of your pass rush in a 3-4 comes from

we spent a fourth on biegel last year, and in 2016 we drafted fuckerall in the 3rd. those are the only 2 picks in the top 4 rounds that we've spent on OLB since 2012 when we drafted perry in the first. 2 lousy picks in the mid rounds for the most important position in a 3-4, when the 2 starters are 2 of the most injury prone players on the team, if not the league

i don't care how good your secondary is. if a QB has 5, 6 or 7 (which we have seen way too often) seconds in the pocket, he's gonna find someone

And they have spit on a lot of very good LB's to take slugs at other positions...

To me defense is first and foremost about pass rush... the Packer brass obviously doesn't agree.

[Bretsky]

How much capital is tied up in OLB currently on the GB roster? If Thing 1 and Thing 2 play 16 games this year, they will be fine.


Has that ever happened?

[woodbuck27]

lets play a fun numbers game, since this thread is doing pass rush vs coverage

SINCE 2014, 4 years ago

we have spent 1 first round pick on a safety (clinton dix)
one second round pick on a safety (josh jones)

2 first round picks on cbs (randall and alexander)
3 second round picks on cbs (rollins, king, jackson)

by my count, thats 7 first and second rounders for our secondry out of 10 picks total (kenny clark, spriggs, davante)

meanwhile at OLB, where the bulk of your pass rush in a 3-4 comes from

we spent a fourth on biegel last year, and in 2016 we drafted fuckerall in the 3rd. those are the only 2 picks in the top 4 rounds that we've spent on OLB since 2012 when we drafted perry in the first. 2 lousy picks in the mid rounds for the most important position in a 3-4, when the 2 starters are 2 of the most injury prone players on the team, if not the league

i don't care how good your secondary is. if a QB has 5, 6 or 7 (which we have seen way too often) seconds in the pocket, he's gonna find someone

Nailed it red.

[mraynrand]

And they have spit on a lot of very good LB's to take slugs at other positions...

To me defense is first and foremost about pass rush... the Packer brass obviously doesn't agree.

I think the former regime thought they had invested enough in pass rush with Matthews and Perry. They also got blown up in the secondary three times (losing Collins, losing Shields, and having Randall crap out) in recent years. There's no reason to believe the new regime doesn't value pass rush over defensive backs. We'll know more going forward, but right now, they're a little hamstrung by bad luck (injuries) and possibly up to three high pick failures (Randall, Rollins, Dix).

I agree that pass rush is more valuable than corners, but you can't get by with crappy corners regardless, and they've just suffered too many wounds at that position - some self-inflicted - to ignore.

[Zool]

Has that ever happened?

Not that I can recall, but the secondary was a disaster. The pass rush was okay. I’d rather they address the train wreck first rather than invest even more in the pass rush.

[gbgary]

Not that I can recall, but the secondary was a disaster. The pass rush was okay. I’d rather they address the train wreck first rather than invest even more in the pass rush.

yup. you keep drafting cb's until it's fixed if you have to...or get someone else's proven cb (but we all know there's a next to zero chance that's happenin).

[Maxie the Taxi]

yup. you keep drafting cb's until it's fixed if you have to...or get someone else's proven cb (but we all know there's a next to zero chance that's happenin).I see this as an argument FOR signing a free agent. At least a free agent is more or less a known quantity in the NFL. The draft remains a crap shoot. Will college talent reliably transfer to the pro game? If we had signed a free agent or two in 2014 we could have been filling other holes with the draft choices spent on DB's.

[gbgary]

I see this as an argument FOR signing a free agent. At least a free agent is more or less a known quantity in the NFL. The draft remains a crap shoot. Will college talent reliably transfer to the pro game? If we had signed a free agent or two in 2014 we could have been filling other holes with the draft choices spent on DB's.

yup...exactly. even through trades. look at the proven corners that changed hands through trades just this year. boggles the mind why tt lasted as long as he did. gute's first offseason hasn't gone off as well as i'd hoped either. his draft may cause me to change my mind.

[mraynrand]

I see this as an argument FOR signing a free agent. At least a free agent is more or less a known quantity in the NFL. The draft remains a crap shoot. Will college talent reliably transfer to the pro game? If we had signed a free agent or two in 2014 we could have been filling other holes with the draft choices spent on DB's.

Except the pay scales are completely different. And FAs are a gamble too. Also, the real high quality players typically aren't allowed to ever hit FA.

[Joemailman]

By signing House and Williams, Gutey has done what many had been clamoring for TT to do: Sign some mid/low-level veteran FA's so that you're not so reliant on the rookies.

[The Shadow]

By signing House and Williams, Gutey has done what many had been clamoring for TT to do: Sign some mid/low-level veteran FA's so that you're not so reliant on the rookies.

Agree. Very good moves.

[pbmax]

I see this as an argument FOR signing a free agent. At least a free agent is more or less a known quantity in the NFL. The draft remains a crap shoot. Will college talent reliably transfer to the pro game? If we had signed a free agent or two in 2014 we could have been filling other holes with the draft choices spent on DB's.

I think this was the plan. Lot more corners than pass rush on market. But they misjudged the market and the prices took off. They couldn't afford their third big move in FA. Gutekunst said they were talking to all of them but they proceeded past the point the Packer's retained interest.

[Rutnstrut]

I see this as an argument FOR signing a free agent. At least a free agent is more or less a known quantity in the NFL. The draft remains a crap shoot. Will college talent reliably transfer to the pro game? If we had signed a free agent or two in 2014 we could have been filling other holes with the draft choices spent on DB's.



Finally someone else sees how TT ignored needs in the roster to hoard late round draft picks and avoid free agency at all costs. But yeah Ted was awesome.

[run pMc]

Clay will be a 32 y/o UFA next year. They can resign him for less by then, and I would be shocked if they don't make some serious moves to shore up their pass rush next season. Trouble is, what do they do this year? Hope the DL brings it and Pettine can pull it off with smoke and mirrors? I get the draft was not very good for pass rushers and reaching for one is questionable at best. I also get that good pass rushers rarely make the FA market.

I wonder if they pull some kind of thing like swapping a R3 pick for a R5 and a JPP kind of player with a 1-2 years left on a pricey contract another team wants to get out of. Packers allegedly have up to $50M in cap space next year with Cobb, Matthews, etc. expiring. But again, what about this year?

I think the CB's this year will provide depth. Rookies don't often contribute a lot, although GB tends to ask a lot of theirs with the draft-and-develop model.
It's more likely King, J.Jones, Brice, and a resurgent HaHa will help on the back end.

[pbmax]

Finally someone else sees how TT ignored needs in the roster to hoard late round draft picks and avoid free agency at all costs. But yeah Ted was awesome.

We'll see how effective the "training" "mentoring" and "leadership" of the DB vets this year. I suspect it will be better because of new scheme and new talent. But I bet the play is better on the field if those two vets are not on it.

I wasn't sure I noticed a huge effect last year when House was around for mentoring. There are so many teams that are terrible with plenty of vets.

Too often these terms are thrown around by those not in the know to explain things they see. I suspect there is an effect, but its smaller than both the talent of the player and the skill of the coach to get the unit to be cohesive.

In order, reasons to be optimistic about the Packer secondary are:

1. Draft picks
2. Healthy King
3. New scheme
4. veteran depth

[mraynrand]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Williams didn't make the final roster.

[gbgary]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Williams didn't make the final roster.

me either initially but after what mm said yesterday i think he's a lock.

[gbgary]

By signing House and Williams, Gutey has done what many had been clamoring for TT to do: Sign some mid/low-level veteran FA's so that you're not so reliant on the rookies.

veteran yes, but basically done(?)...no. it was cheap-ass hole plugging like nearly everything tt did last off-season.

[The Shadow]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Williams didn't make the final roster.

He makes the roster. Lock.

[Joemailman]

veteran yes, but basically done(?)...no. it was cheap-ass hole plugging like nearly everything tt did last off-season.

Don't know when the wheels will come off for Tramon, but he was damn good last year once Arizona was smart enough to start playing him. House, if he makes the team might just be depth, but that's fine. Too often the last few years, the depth on defense has been UDFA's.

[pbmax]

Don't know when the wheels will come off for Tramon, but he was damn good last year once Arizona was smart enough to start playing him. House, if he makes the team might just be depth, but that's fine. Too often the last few years, the depth on defense has been UDFA's.

I think it depends on his health. He was banged up last year in the back end of the season. If healthy he is still under 30 I think.

[Joemailman]

I think it depends on his health. He was banged up last year in the back end of the season. If healthy he is still under 30 I think.

He will turn 29 in July, whether he's healthy or not. Unless he's REALLY not healthy. But I digress.