DSKA: Defense Supplies Kool Aid

[pbmax]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000937609/article/debrief-fear-the-packers-defense-plus-holdout-watch-2018




There is danger here of the Trope Alert sounding (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000937459/article/nfl-trope-season-is-here-the-finest-in-recycled-themes). Capers became an unpopular figure, his ample, fuzzy hair standing in contrast to new coordinator Mike Pettine's sleek, bare approach. Pettine has promised his players to K.I.L.L. (keep it likable and learnable) (http://www.nfl.com/videos/rich-eisen-show/0ap3000000937052/Daniels-Pettine-is-bringing-a-keep-it-likable-learnable-mentality-to-Packers-defense) with a system Daniels calls very complex, but very simple at the same time. Any new coordinator figured to be popular in Green Bay, but few have the track record that Pettine boasts as a coordinator with the Jets and Bills. He's a master at maximizing secondary play and creating mismatches. More importantly, few defenses boast more firepower at every level than the Packers.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Can Pettiness turn cow manures into burgers?

Until proven otherwise, the current corners don’t scare any Hundley-clone QBs and the safeties are haha laughingstocks.

[mraynrand]

Kyler Fackrell is pure Firepower

[ThunderDan]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000937609/article/debrief-fear-the-packers-defense-plus-holdout-watch-2018

Isn't that the same NFL.com that gave us the rating system for this year's draft?

[gbgary]

gotta see it to believe it. it starts with attitude though.

[Joemailman]

It starts on the defensive line, where it's hard to argue when Daniels calls himself the most complete lineman in football because of his ability to maintain his gap, leverage and hand placement. He felt like the old system "took away" from many of his strengths, which makes his disruption more impressive.

Should I read into this that Pettine's defense is more of a 1 gap defense?

[Cheesehead Craig]

Isn't that the same NFL.com that gave us the rating system for this year's draft?

Yep. They graded the Packers having an elite draft.

[pbmax]

Should I read into this that Pettine's defense is more of a 1 gap defense?

Its definitely a 1-gap defense from previous write ups.

[pbmax]

Isn't that the same NFL.com that gave us the rating system for this year's draft?

Well, yes.

But we know who wrote the article (Greg(g) Rosenthal) but we still don't know who the scouts are at NFL.com

[wist43]

We've got no linebackers.

I like what Gute did in the secondary, but those guys are going to have some growing pains; and, I like the potential of the young DL, but it's not like they've produced yet. Daniels is the only proven player up there.

Perry is a one-armed man just waiting to get hurt; Matthews is past his prime and will miss games; there's exactly no depth at OLB; and, we don't have a single ILB on the roster that's even average.

Dunderdummy made a mess of everything year in and year out, so I expect we'll be better simply b/c of his subtraction... we'll see what Pettine can do. I'm cautiously optimistic about him.

[Joemailman]

Wist in a Kool-Aid thread is like a bull in a china shop. :)

[KYPack]

Should I read into this that Pettine's defense is more of a 1 gap defense?

Pettine will play 99% 1 gap. Any 2 gap stuff will be specialty looks, not a standard defense. Daniels and Wilkerson are the only two DL's that could be effective in 2 gap. Daniels does't want to play 2 gap and Wilkerson is more of a 5 technique anyway.

[The Shadow]

The game had passed Capers by. Pettine's track record suggests he knows what he is doing. I am encouraged.

[The Shadow]

I would be quite pleased with a BALA defense (Be At Least Average)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Perry is a one-armed man just waiting to get hurt; Matthews is past his prime and will miss games; there's exactly no depth at OLB; and, we don't have a single ILB on the roster that's even average.

Truth meter says: mostly true

Except I thought that Salt n Pepper (or Chico and the Man or whatever the nickname for inside linebackers is) came on to respectability in 2017.

[wist43]

Truth meter says: mostly true

Except I thought that Salt n Pepper (or Chico and the Man or whatever the nickname for inside linebackers is) came on to respectability in 2017.

Martinez has a chance to be decent... just don't think Ryan has the athletic ability to get any better, and to date he hasn't been good enough.

Burks?? I'd be shocked if he he sees much playing time at all as a rookie.

[wist43]

Wist in a Kool-Aid thread is like a bull in a china shop. :)

Just trying to keep y'alls feet on the ground... off season optimism is like cocaine for Packer fans ;)

[texaspackerbacker]

A Healthy Aaron Rodgers and no improvement whatsoever otherwise, and the Packers are top 4 or 5 in the whole NFL. There's legitimate reason to think the D will be improved - the Capers haters got their way; potentially great improvement at Corner; probable better D Line play; at least no worse at OLB, etc.

I say the sky's the limit.

[3irty1]

Having a decent rusher for each edge is quite a luxury. Healthy Matthews and healthy Perry is more than we won the SB with. It'd be nice if at least one of them earned most of their salary this season. Nothing wrong with assuming lady luck is on your roster, you're going to need her to win the SB anyways no matter how stacked your team is.

[Joemailman]

Having a decent rusher for each edge is quite a luxury. Healthy Matthews and healthy Perry is more than we won the SB with. It'd be nice if at least one of them earned most of their salary this season. Nothing wrong with assuming lady luck is on your roster, you're going to need her to win the SB anyways no matter how stacked your team is.

Absolutely. Packers had 20.5 sacks from OLB's in 2010. 13.5 from Matthews. Guys like Beigel, Gilbert and maybe even Holy Fackrell could be a better supporting cast than Poppinga and Zombo were.

[wist43]

We had better pieces all-around on defense in 2010... Matthews 2010 is light years better than Matthews 2018. The other OLB spot was below average in 2010, so advantage 2018.

As for the rest of the defense - it is advantage 2010 over 2018 at every position. Cullen Jenkins was playing better than Daniels or Clark; Pickett was playing very well. Bishop was better than either of our current ILB's. Nick Collins and Charles Woodson?? No comparison to the 2018 players needs to be made. Willams in his prime and Shields playing at a high level??

There's no comparison between 2010 and 2018.

There's some talent to work with on the defensive side of the ball, but it needs to be developed and we need a lot of luck on the injury front. We have zero depth at LB... unless Gilbert continues to improve. Fackrell will likely be cut, I don't think Burks can contribute much of anything this year, and I don't expect anything out of Beigel. The DB's are going to be a work in progress - to be sure there will be growing pains.

Best case scenario is that the defense can gel by mid-season, and the young guys can step up by seasons end and be counted on to perform at a higher than average level. That's asking a lot I think.

[pbmax]

There's no comparison between 2010 and 2018.


The only person to make this comparison is you. Tough to compare almost any D to the #2 ranked scoring defense (#5 in yards). And #2 in DVOA.

[wist43]

The only person to make this comparison is you. Tough to compare almost any D to the #2 ranked scoring defense (#5 in yards). And #2 in DVOA.

I was responding to 31's mention of our OLB's compared to the SB team...

Try to keep up max - might help if you took off those green & gold sunglasses ;)

[KYPack]

Before we bury Martinez, I would note that the guy led the NFL in tackles. He is smart and a good hand out there. He is a guy that Pettine can use to build a defense.

Another big plus for the Pack is Pettine. He totally changed the culture in Cleveland and had them turned around until Haslem meddled with the team and the whole thing went in the toilet. That initial season, Pettine brought the Browns into Cincy and totally smothered them 24-3. That put the Browns in first place in the AFC North for the first time in 20 years. They got to 7-4 and their arrow was on the way up, when Haslam inserted (fourth Down) Johnny Manziel. The browns lost the last 5 games to finish 7-9. The Bengals went up to Cleveland and crushed Manziel and the Browns 30-0.

The Browns were a shadow of their former selves and so was Pettine. When he had his team playing his way, they were in it. A little owner meddling with the QB's and his team was destroyed. I'm sure Pettine is chomping at the bit to run a D his way. I'm hoping like hell it happens in GB.

[Joemailman]

Before we bury Martinez, I would note that the guy led the NFL in tackles. He is smart and a good hand out there. He is a guy that Pettine can use to build a defense.



Led the NFL in tackles, and was in the top 5 in passes defensed among linebackers. In Pettine's system, he could start to get some more pass rushing opportunities. The next step for him would be to have more impact with turnovers. Had 1 INT and 1 FF last year.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Led the NFL in tackles, and was in the top 5 in passes defensed among linebackers. In Pettine's system, he could start to get some more pass rushing opportunities. The next step for him would be to have more impact with turnovers. Had 1 INT and 1 FF last year.

It’s easy to lead the NFL in tackles when you’ve a penchant for tackling runners and receivers past the chains. Likewise, it’s easy to lead the league in pass defensed when QBs love throwing the rock at you cos you suck in coverage.

Martinez is a-OK vs the run. An abomination in coverage.

[mraynrand]

Before we bury Martinez, I would note that the guy led the NFL in tackles. He is smart and a good hand out there. He is a guy that Pettine can use to build a defense.

Another big plus for the Pack is Pettine. He totally changed the culture in Cleveland and had them turned around until Haslem meddled with the team and the whole thing went in the toilet. That initial season, Pettine brought the Browns into Cincy and totally smothered them 24-3. That put the Browns in first place in the AFC North for the first time in 20 years. They got to 7-4 and their arrow was on the way up, when Haslam inserted (fourth Down) Johnny Manziel. The browns lost the last 5 games to finish 7-9. The Bengals went up to Cleveland and crushed Manziel and the Browns 30-0.

The Browns were a shadow of their former selves and so was Pettine. When he had his team playing his way, they were in it. A little owner meddling with the QB's and his team was destroyed. I'm sure Pettine is chomping at the bit to run a D his way. I'm hoping like hell it happens in GB.

That team was pretty talented at injuring TEs as well. Hopefully Martellus Bennett will come out of retirement and sign with a Packer opponent.

[pbmax]

Martinez is a-OK vs the run. An abomination in coverage.

He's not that bad. The Packers alone have had far worse. There is a reason Jones and Burks were added to the team and its not because ILB coverage is worse than its ever been.

It because coverage of the 4th receiving option is more important now ever.

The Packers also have had to devote a lot of DB resources to helping cover WRs. If any of the CBs perform regularly this year (that is healthy starters) then it will make helping the SS and ILB coverages easier. If Clinton-Dix is 25 yards off the ball this year, then ILB coverage might still be an issue.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

He's not that bad. The Packers alone have had far worse. There is a reason Jones and Burks were added to the team and its not because ILB coverage is worse than its ever been.

It because coverage of the 4th receiving option is more important now ever.

The Packers also have had to devote a lot of DB resources to helping cover WRs. If any of the CBs perform regularly this year (that is healthy starters) then it will make helping the SS and ILB coverages easier. If Clinton-Dix is 25 yards off the ball this year, then ILB coverage might still be an issue.

Martinez ain't a corner, so it's a'rite that he can't cover any prima donna wide-outs. Covering TEs and RBs, however, is another matter. Martinez can't cover TEs and RBs. Can't play zone. Can't play man. Hell, can't even play the fudging Pistol Force. Abomination, indeed.

I'm bearish about Martinez's ability to cover like former Bears great, Brian Urlacher. Get the dude off the field on 3rd downs!

[pbmax]

Martinez ain't a corner, so it's a'rite that he can't cover any prima donna wide-outs. Covering TEs and RBs, however, is another matter. Martinez can't cover TEs and RBs. Can't play zone. Can't play man. Hell, can't even play the fudging Pistol Force. Abomination, indeed.

I'm bearish about Martinez's ability to cover like former Bears great, Brian Urlacher. Get the dude off the field on 3rd downs!

I sometimes wonder if you have actually ever watched a game of football. Pistol force again, huh?

[ThunderDan]

I sometimes wonder if you have actually ever watched a game of football. Pistol force again, huh?

Reading comprehension isn't that good either. You talk about better CB play allowing the S to play up and help with inside coverage. APB says ILBs don't cover WRs.

[The Shadow]

I think Pettine will prove to be the Pack's most valuable offseason addition

[hoosier]

It’s easy to lead the NFL in tackles when you’ve a penchant for tackling runners and receivers past the chains. Likewise, it’s easy to lead the league in pass defensed when QBs love throwing the rock at you cos you suck in coverage.

Martinez is a-OK vs the run. An abomination in coverage.

Martinez was tied for 20th among LBs in TFL last year. Not great but not exactly the picture of a defender going backwards either.

[The Shadow]

Even if the defense makes that Great Leap Forward, we are in overall team jeopardy with the backup QB situation. Neither guy is an NFL QB.

[MadScientist]

Even if the defense makes that Great Leap Forward, we are in overall team jeopardy with the backup QB situation. Neither guy is an NFL QB.

I still think Kizer has a chance to become a decent QB if he can take to the coaching. Hundley is there in case the other backups break legs in camp. If he is on the 53, things have gone wrong for the Packers.

[Fritz]

Absolutely. Packers had 20.5 sacks from OLB's in 2010. 13.5 from Matthews. Guys like Beigel, Gilbert and maybe even Holy Fackrell could be a better supporting cast than Poppinga and Zombo were.

All I can say is that Holy Fackrell better drop to his knees and pray if he ever gets an NFL sack, and Biegel better howl.

I imagine Daniels will like the one gap stuff. His talents seemed wasted just plugging holes.

[3irty1]

There's no comparison between 2010 and 2018.

There's some talent to work with on the defensive side of the ball, but it needs to be developed and we need a lot of luck on the injury front. We have zero depth at LB... unless Gilbert continues to improve. Fackrell will likely be cut, I don't think Burks can contribute much of anything this year, and I don't expect anything out of Beigel. The DB's are going to be a work in progress - to be sure there will be growing pains.

Best case scenario is that the defense can gel by mid-season, and the young guys can step up by seasons end and be counted on to perform at a higher than average level. That's asking a lot I think.

My intention was not to say that the entire 2018 defense compares favorably to the entire SB defense. Although 2010 was basically a year where the best case scenario you outlined for 2018 came true. We fell ass-backwards into Sam Shields. Got spectacular contributions from bums like Peprah, Walden, and Green. Overall we had good injury luck on the defensive side of the ball with our most significant injury being the one that brought Bishop to the field. We get something analogous this year and even you'll enjoy watching the defense. Especially since professional integrity demand that you expect a 10 rank improvement on defense by the subtraction of Capers alone.

[wist43]

My intention was not to say that the entire 2018 defense compares favorably to the entire SB defense. Although 2010 was basically a year where the best case scenario you outlined for 2018 came true. We fell ass-backwards into Sam Shields. Got spectacular contributions from bums like Peprah, Walden, and Green. Overall we had good injury luck on the defensive side of the ball with our most significant injury being the one that brought Bishop to the field. We get something analogous this year and even you'll enjoy watching the defense. Especially since professional integrity demand that you expect a 10 rank improvement on defense by the subtraction of Capers alone.

Yeah, I think there's enough talent there combined with the addition of Pettine to improve 10 spots - even with the growing pains and weaknesses.

My hope is that Pettine will play to our strengths, i.e. the DL more than LB's, and realize the young guys on the back end need some protection early on - not just turning them loose on an island.

Next year Gute will have to address the LB positions - don't see how he can avoid that. Matthews will be another year older, who knows what we'll get out of Perry; hopefully Gilbert will continue to improve, and Martinez; but, outside of those guys, I don't see any talent on the current roster able to step up and be counted on moving forward. That's a lot of positions to fill next offseason.

[The Shadow]

Let next year take its course.

[woodbuck27]

Yeah, I think there's enough talent there combined with the addition of Pettine to improve 10 spots - even with the growing pains and weaknesses.

My hope is that Pettine will play to our strengths, i.e. the DL more than LB's, and realize the young guys on the back end need some protection early on - not just turning them loose on an island.

Next year Gute will have to address the LB positions - don't see how he can avoid that. Matthews will be another year older, who knows what we'll get out of Perry; hopefully Gilbert will continue to improve, and Martinez; but, outside of those guys, I don't see any talent on the current roster able to step up and be counted on moving forward. That's a lot of positions to fill next offseason.

This is clearly an assessment year.

[woodbuck27]

This is for anyone observing Packerrats who might not know what 1 Gap and 2 Gap "D' means and when each is used by DC - Defensive Coordinator:

http://www.xsosfootball.com/one-gap-and-two-gap-techniques/

FOOTBALL STRATEGIES

One Gap and Two Gap Techniques

By: Xs Os Staff - Sep 17, 2012 19559 3

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I sometimes wonder if you have actually ever watched a game of football. Pistol force again, huh?

I was a shutdown corner in HS. Didn't need to play or learn the Pistol Force. I was like, just put me on an island and lemme do my thing! The coaches conceded. And I shut down Darren Charles.

So, what the fuck is the Pistol Force? Some kind of Five-0 organization that Rand's cousin belongs to, or something?

[KYPack]

This is for anyone observing Packerrats who might not know what 1 Gap and 2 Gap "D' means and when each is used by DC - Defensive Coordinator:

http://www.xsosfootball.com/one-gap-and-two-gap-techniques/

FOOTBALL STRATEGIES

One Gap and Two Gap Techniques

By: Xs Os Staff - Sep 17, 2012 19559 3

Decent article, Woody.

That site is focused on Madden strategies, so be aware of that. Actually, two gap systems are going the way of the dodo. The last NFL team that two gapped across a front was the Steelers when LeBeau was the DC. They used Keisel, Casey Hampton, & Aaron Smith in the 3-4 front and all of 'em had two gap responsibility. I haven't seen any team use that system for their front since then. Two gap DL's in the current are mostly on the nose (zero tech). Two gapping is a helluva a responsibility and a thankless job.
Few two gap lineman get many sacks or hurries, which affects the old paycheck.

The article that said Pettine was going to install a one gap system here struck me as curious. Capers isn't a two gap type DC. Pettine has to change the defensive culture, but putting in a one gap D isn't the biggest task in front of him.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Reading comprehension isn't that good either. You talk about better CB play allowing the S to play up and help with inside coverage. APB says ILBs don't cover WRs.

Talk abut reading comprehension. I said Martinez can't cover WRs, not that he won't. Big difference. Allison is a bum, but even that sloth would annihilate Martinez if Martinez covered him all game long.

[KYPack]

I was a shutdown corner in HS. Didn't need to play or learn the Pistol Force. I was like, just put me on an island and lemme do my thing! The coaches conceded. And I shut down Darren Charles.

So, what the fuck is the Pistol Force? Some kind of Five-0 organization that Rand's cousin belongs to, or something?

Been said thousands of time, but your claims of being some kind of star player is bogus. You didn't even play, let alone have some kind of starring role.

If you had played, you wouldn't be asking these stupid questions or making these foolish statements.

[The Shadow]

Been said thousands of time, but your claims of being some kind of star player is bogus. You didn't even play, let alone have some kind of starring role.

If you had played, you wouldn't be asking these stupid questions or making these foolish statements.

Are we sure this isn't really Brian Williams?

[KYPack]

Are we sure this isn't really Brian Williams?

Good one, Shadow.

I didn't get it for a minute bc I thought of Brian Williams, the old Packer linebacker.

[The Shadow]

I turned down joining The Quarrymen the same year I knocked out Muhammad Ali - I'm just to modest to mention it much.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Been said thousands of time, but your claims of being some kind of star player is bogus. You didn't even play, let alone have some kind of starring role.

If you had played, you wouldn't be asking these stupid questions or making these foolish statements.

Seems like only you and pb know shit about the pistol force. Hell, my friend Nutz coaches football and he thinks the pistol force is an offspring of the nra.

Whatever it is, the shutdown corner’s job ain’t the pistol force. It’s shutting down wideouts.

[bobblehead]

My intention was not to say that the entire 2018 defense compares favorably to the entire SB defense. Although 2010 was basically a year where the best case scenario you outlined for 2018 came true. We fell ass-backwards into Sam Shields. Got spectacular contributions from bums like Peprah, Walden, and Green. Overall we had good injury luck on the defensive side of the ball with our most significant injury being the one that brought Bishop to the field. We get something analogous this year and even you'll enjoy watching the defense. Especially since professional integrity demand that you expect a 10 rank improvement on defense by the subtraction of Capers alone.

And this year its gonna be herb waters...woot, I love the offseason.

[bobblehead]

Seems like only you and pb know shit about the pistol force. Hell, my friend Nutz coaches football and he thinks the pistol force is an offspring of the nra...the greatest organization in history!!

Whatever it is, the shutdown corner’s job ain’t the pistol force. It’s shutting down wideouts.

FIFY

[theeaterofshades]

I was a shutdown corner in HS. Didn't need to play or learn the Pistol Force. I was like, just put me on an island and lemme do my thing! The coaches conceded. And I shut down Darren Charles.

So, what the fuck is the Pistol Force? Some kind of Five-0 organization that Rand's cousin belongs to, or something?

Ah the time of year for Tank to come out, relive the glory days, and regales us with tales of him shutting down Darren Charles in High School and by transitive properties he is a defensive expert. LOL

[mraynrand]

Ah the time of year for Tank to come out, relive the glory days, and regales us with tales of him shutting down Darren Charles in High School and by transitive properties he is a defensive expert. LOL

https://www.thenorthwestern.com/story/news/local/oshkosh/2014/10/19/darrin-charles-actor/17575611/

[Harlan Huckleby]

We'll soon be celebrating the tenth anniversary of the tank-Darren Charles story. This is bigger than the JFK assassination controversy, bigger even than the posting pictures of the JFK assassination controversy. The arguments will rage into the retirement home.

Put me down as a tanker. I believe that tank shutdown Darren Charles and only lost out on his scholarship to the UW because coach Don Morton was prejudiced. I may have some details wrong because I take tank seriously not literally.

BTW, have I ever told you about the time I beat Tim Krumrie in wrestling?

[George Cumby]

Ah the time of year for Tank to come out, relive the glory days, and regales us with tales of him shutting down Darren Charles in High School and by transitive properties he is a defensive expert. LOL

The increasing frequency of Darren Charles references, anecdotally, seems to presage another ban coming down the pike.

Tank can only control his base impulses for so long

He is what what he is: The Once and Future Troll.

[pbmax]

The increasing frequency of Darren Charles references, anecdotally, seems to presage another ban coming down the pike.

Tank can only control his base impulses for so long

He is what what he is: The Once and Future Troll.

I think he just runs out of material. Like a comedian, he has a year to create material for a new hour, film the special, then goes back to the greatest hits for a while.

Maybe the Netflix special can be called Pistol Force?

[George Cumby]

Lol

[KYPack]

The increasing frequency of Darren Charles references, anecdotally, seems to presage another ban coming down the pike.

Tank can only control his base impulses for so long

He is what what he is: The Once and Future Troll.

Tank is delusional and prone to crazy fantasy.

He had other myths he used to tell along with the "Shutdown" tale:

- He was a top college prospect who ran a 4.4 40.

- He was up for a scholarship to UW, but got dumped by Barry Alvarez bc he was dating a black girl. (at that point, another poster asked "What was her 40 time?")

Of course, Oshkosh with Charles, blew the Appleton team off the field 33 - 0. Charles got little action bc the inept Appleton team was being pummeled by runs and short passes. Despite getting little action that game, Charles still caught a pass for 18 yards. Tank didn't shut down Charles, bc NOBODY shut him down.

I don't believe that Tank even played in the game, let alone shut anybody down.

[KYPack]

We'll soon be celebrating the tenth anniversary of the tank-Darren Charles story. This is bigger than the JFK assassination controversy, bigger even than the posting pictures of the JFK assassination controversy. The arguments will rage into the retirement home.

Put me down as a tanker. I believe that tank shutdown Darren Charles and only lost out on his scholarship to the UW because coach Don Morton was prejudiced. I may have some details wrong because I take tank seriously not literally.

BTW, have I ever told you about the time I beat Tim Krumrie in wrestling?

You wrestled Krumrie?

That's strong, Harlan.

I knew him slightly when he lived here.

He likes to drink beer and play bar dice (Ship, Captain, & Crew)

A good Sconny type guy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'll be banned if I tell the story for 20th time

[Joemailman]

I'll be banned if I tell the story for 20th time

Nah. People your age are expected to tell the same stories over and over.

[theeaterofshades]

Nah. People your age are expected to tell the same stories over and over.

You just need to add "Back in my day..." or "I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time..." to your story and you'll be golden