More football: Linebackers

[bobblehead]

Ok, first the kool aid:

Mathews and Perry both stay healthy and provide consistent pressure.

Sadly that is about the only kool aid I can find with this group. The reality is they will both miss time and the group as a whole is unimpressive. Clay is getting old and should be playing ILB, Burke is a rookie and seems to lack instinct. Martinez seems to get to the ball carrier, but I can't recall seeing him make any impact in coverage or pass rush. Biegel is still effectively a rookie who hasn't shown much, Fackrell is hopeless.

I just can't find a reason to get excited about this group.

[Upnorth]

Ok, first the kool aid:

Mathews and Perry both stay healthy and provide consistent pressure.

Sadly that is about the only kool aid I can find with this group. The reality is they will both miss time and the group as a whole is unimpressive. Clay is getting old and should be playing ILB, Burke is a rookie and seems to lack instinct. Martinez seems to get to the ball carrier, but I can't recall seeing him make any impact in coverage or pass rush. Biegel is still effectively a rookie who hasn't shown much, Fackrell is hopeless.

I just can't find a reason to get excited about this group.

But Jones will transition to Nitro LB and make everyone look that much better!

Also hasn't wist taught us all that LBs dont matter???:-)

[red]

just remember, the new DC might run some 4-3. so on those plays, we'll only have 3 disappointments on the field instead of 4

so we got that going for us

[Joemailman]

Ok, first the kool aid:

Mathews and Perry both stay healthy and provide consistent pressure.

Sadly that is about the only kool aid I can find with this group. The reality is they will both miss time and the group as a whole is unimpressive. Clay is getting old and should be playing ILB, Burke is a rookie and seems to lack instinct. Martinez seems to get to the ball carrier, but I can't recall seeing him make any impact in coverage or pass rush. Biegel is still effectively a rookie who hasn't shown much, Fackrell is hopeless.

I just can't find a reason to get excited about this group.

I think we'll start seeing Clay at ILB quite a bit again, where he seems less injury prone. Martinez had 8 passes defensed last year, which I think is pretty damn good for an ILB. He wasn't used in pass rush much, if I recall correctly, but that could change as Pettine stresses inside pass rush. I'm hopeful a healthy Biegel will be pretty good. Don't forget Reggie Gilbert, who's been pretty good when he's had a chance to play.
https://thesportsdailydigital.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/09ca4-6a01156f2c3287970c0133f351a482970b-500pi.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

I also think Clay should play a lot at ILB. Paired with Martinez, the Packers would be pretty solid there. The big question mark obviously is OLB. I'm optimistic about Biegel and Gilbert, and I may be the only one, but I even think there is some hope for Fackrell. I also think Burks' best chance to contribute is OLB. If your D Line is solid - ours is, and your ILBs get the job done - they should, then OLB becomes not much more than a speed position - turn that corner hard and don't miss the tackle when you get there. Whatever else you can say, Biegel, Gilbert, Fackrell, and Burks are fast. I haven't mentioned Perry because I'm not thinking very positive about him. He gets hurt a lot, and he's got the kind of speed that just almost gets there - like warning track power in baseball.

[pbmax]

Matthews, if inside, will be there for pass rush. He might see more coverage but it'll be from OLB.

I, too, still have hope for Fackrell, but its running against his trend of simply not being impactful enough. But he has got to stop playing careful.

Gilbert seems like the typical offseason "jump" story but he did look better than the alternatives late last year. But I wonder what kept him on the bench that long.

Burks will be the dime LB by the third pre-season game.

I am not expecting a ton out of Biegle.

[MadScientist]

If the DB's don't look like a bunch of idiots who never played football and all speak different languages, maybe the LB's will have that extra step to get the sack. CM might actually look rejuvenated, not because he's improved physically, but because QB's won't have their choice of open receivers the instant he finishes his drop back.

[run pMc]

Matthews was good last year, think that will continue if he's healthy. Has a chance to reach double digit sacks but don't count on it. I don't know how much he'll play ILB because they have a bunch of mid rounders there (Burks, Martinez, Ryan). Maybe they line him up there with Ryan outside to confuse a QB pre-snap, but I don't know they have enough OLB quality depth to play him inside.
Perry is good when he's healthy; he's almost never healthy though.

I think you just pencil in these two missing 2-4 games each.

Gilbert will leapfrog Fackrell on the depth chart, if he has his technique down and knows the plays.
Fackrell sticks for ST if nothing else. I think given his age he's not going to show a lot more, unless Pettine finds a way to turn the lightbulb on.
Too early to tell on Biegel; last year was a lost year for him. We'll get an idea in training camp. People are all over the place on him.

Burks is going to be the Nitro and dime LB instead of Josh Jones. Supposed to be smart and a hard worker, but they'll start Ryan/Martinez over him to start the season. Maybe that changes by mid-season. I think he'll at least be Joe Thomas his first year, with a chance to make a jump and be a decent/average starter.

The R7 pick is probably a PS guy his first year.

Don't know who else they have.

Overall, kind of a meh group. They will need to address/overhaul it next offseason. Matthews' contract is up I believe but they should bring him back and draft 2-3 guys like they did with RBs, CBs, and WRs the last two drafts. Maybe the NO pick makes that more feasible.

[Zool]

I know CM3 made some flashy plays at ILB, but did anyone watch him play there? He was actually pretty bad. He has no discipline for the position. He over-runs as many plays as he makes. Let Clay do what Clay does. Rush the passer and improvise.

[Fritz]

just remember, the new DC might run some 4-3. so on those plays, we'll only have 3 disappointments on the field instead of 4

so we got that going for us

Red is an awesome poster.

[mraynrand]

Red is an awesome poster.

I love how Red calls the English fans the 'most negative in the world.' They got nothin' on Red.

[pbmax]

I know CM3 made some flashy plays at ILB, but did anyone watch him play there? He was actually pretty bad. He has no discipline for the position. He over-runs as many plays as he makes. Let Clay do what Clay does. Rush the passer and improvise.

The biggest reason for improvement that year was Nick Perry starting in place of Matthews on run downs.

[Fritz]

We'll know the season has really started when Matthews strains or tears some quad or groin and when Nick Perry breaks some freaky bone in his hand or wrist, thus having to miss a few games before he comes back to play with a club on that hand.

We all better hope that a miracle occurs and that either Kyle Feckless, Vince Smeagol, or Reggie (White) Gilbert is The Next Big Thing.

Sigh.

[Joemailman]

We'll know the season has really started when Matthews strains or tears some quad or groin and when Nick Perry breaks some freaky bone in his hand or wrist, thus having to miss a few games before he comes back to play with a club on that hand.

We all better hope that a miracle occurs and that either Kyle Feckless, Vince Smeagol, or Reggie (White) Gilbert is The Next Big Thing.

Sigh.

Might not need The Next Big Thing. In 4 years as Jets DC, Pettine's pass defenses were in the top 6 every year. Yet he never had a player with more than 8 sacks. Sacks really weren't their strong point, as only once were they in the top 10. Pettine stresses inside pass rush, and I suspect he's more concerned with getting consistent inside pressure than he is with high numbers of sacks.
t

[Zool]

Packers have been high in sacks for quite a few years. Sacks (not equals sign) good defense.

[Carolina_Packer]

Kevin Dodd was just released by the Titans. He needs to revive his career, and Green Bay needs more competition/depth at OLB. It's worth the risk of having him get cut out of camp. If he shows out and makes the most his second act, both parties could get what they need.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/kevin-dodd?id=2555338

[ThunderDan]

Kevin Dodd was just released by the Titans. He needs to revive his career, and Green Bay needs more competition/depth at OLB. It's worth the risk of having him get cut out of camp. If he shows out and makes the most his second act, both parties could get what they need.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/kevin-dodd?id=2555338

But he had a 6.24 grade and was projected as a 1st Rounder. There is no way he should be available. #Sarcasm

Maybe someone to have come in and kick the tires.

[run pMc]

Thought Dodd didn't report to offseason or camp and wasn't communicative so they cut him loose. Seemed to recall some kind of WTF with him. Sounded like a headcase or some personal stuff there. Physically talented, not sure about between the ears.

[pbmax]

But he had a 6.24 grade and was projected as a 1st Rounder. There is no way he should be available. #Sarcasm

Maybe someone to have come in and kick the tires.

I wonder of we could setup Woody in a moneyball GM situation with those numbers as his analytics.

[Fritz]

Might not need The Next Big Thing. In 4 years as Jets DC, Pettine's pass defenses were in the top 6 every year. Yet he never had a player with more than 8 sacks. Sacks really weren't their strong point, as only once were they in the top 10. Pettine stresses inside pass rush, and I suspect he's more concerned with getting consistent inside pressure than he is with high numbers of sacks.
t

Maybe so. Maybe so. I cringe, though, when I think of how many times the football came out of a collapsed pocket - you couldn't figure out how the QB could even deliver it - and the, even more astoundingly, the pass would be a completion. I just want someone to hit the QB BEFORE he throws the ball.

I got no numbers. Just bad memories.

[Joemailman]

Decent overview of Burks' performance Thursday night. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/12/packers-rookie-lb-oren-burks-shows-potential-in-preseason-debut/

Good: Speed in breaking to the ball carrier

Not so good: Getting off blocks.

Not surprising at this point for a converted safety.

[pbmax]

That has some nice clips of him in action. He's a little slow to recognize (I don't think he makes that first tackle on the flat pass if the guy doesn't slip) but closes on the ball well.

He isn't going to be your run defense ILB. But as a dime LB he has a chance. He might eventually very good versus the run against a spread offensive alignment on 3rd and 7.

[Zool]

Did you notice the 4-3 alignment in the one play with him as Wil and Holy Fackrell as Sam?

[pbmax]

Did you notice the 4-3 alignment in the one play with him as Wil and Holy Fackrell as Sam?

Yeah, and it was early in the game too. Obviously something they wanted to see. Maybe make teams guess if Fackrell is coming and Matthews/Perry are dropping.

And don't mention this to wist, but I also saw a lot of 2-4, if you insist that your D lineman have to have a hand in the dirt to count.

[texaspackerbacker]

I still say Burks is more suited for OLB.

[Joemailman]

I still say Burks is more suited for OLB.

Pettine has always stressed inside pass rush. Burks' speed can be utilized just as well by blitzing from an inside position. Burks' coverage skills, which are probably his greatest asset, can be better utilized from ILB than OLB.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I still say Burks is more suited for OLB.

Who would you like to see start at ILB?

[texaspackerbacker]

Who would you like to see start at ILB?

Martinez and Clay Matthews. There's more room for a kinda flimsy speed guy to roam and attack on the outside, that's why I'd rather see him there. Clay, Perry, and the others come close but usually don't get to the QB - kinda like warning track power in baseball. Maybe Burks can hit a few more dingers.

[mraynrand]

Why does anyone believe Burks can rush from the outside?

[texaspackerbacker]

Why does anyone believe Burks can rush from the outside?

Just like with a Corner blitz, anybody with a minimum of NFL level tackling ability and a bunch of speed can get around that corner and wreak havoc.

[Zool]

Why does anyone think Matthews is good at ILB?

[pbmax]

Just like with a Corner blitz, anybody with a minimum of NFL level tackling ability and a bunch of speed can get around that corner and wreak havoc.

Name me the people who have succeeded doing this. Because the best edge pass rushers are all over 6' 3" and 233 lbs.

I think you are confusing a safety or slot corner being an effective blitzer with an OLB, who has to stand on the line and hold an edge and gap against the run.

[texaspackerbacker]

If the OLB gets into the backfield quick enough, it disrupts things even if he doesn't make the tackle, and somebody else can clean things up. In that kind of scheme, you have either an ILB looping out or a Safety coming up to set the edge as needed - but most of the time, it isn't needed.

As for Clay Matthews playing inside, I know he gets maligned, but what I saw was better all around play there from him than anybody except Martinez, and an ability to rush from ILB he doesn't seem to have any more from the outside. Burks would get trampled in there; Matthews would not. Clay's shortcoming at ILB, as I saw it, was occasional lack of discipline and inexperience at the position. That should be coachable.

I know, that hasn't been Pettine's MO previously, but with the personnel we have, I wish he'd give it a try.

[run pMc]

Just like with a Corner blitz, anybody with a minimum of NFL level tackling ability and a bunch of speed can get around that corner and wreak havoc.

Extrapolating a little, why not just put 4 DL, 2 safeties and 5 blazing fast corners out there?

I'd think any starting quality LT should be able to put a 200-230 lb defender on skates. Josh Hawkins is blazing fast but I don't want him playing OLB -- he'd get pancaked. 6-3 230 is pretty light for an OLB who has some trouble shedding run blocks. Matthews, Perry, Gilbert all weigh in the 255-265 range.

I don't think Burks has played much OLB, so he'd be learning it, plus I think he's better unblocked so he can use his speed. I could see Pettine sending him on a delayed blitz up the middle, or on a cross-blitz. Capers did that with A.J.Hawk and Bishop and got pressure.
I could also see them overloading one side a la Buddy Ryan and sending him and Matthews (or Perry) off the edge in hopes of getting there unblocked.

Everyone thinks Matthews is good at ILB because when they shifted him inside he was less injured and made an iffy defense less leaky. He's always been a bit of a gambler, and he's not nearly as explosive as he used to be, so I could see them eventually moving him inside. For now he's still a productive if overpaid pass rusher and by default one of their two best OLB's so you keep him there.

Just my two cents.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why does anyone think Matthews is good at ILB?

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

[bobblehead]

I still say Burks is more suited for OLB.

I read everything following this post, but simply said, Burks is almost a classic ILB and would be entirely miscast as an OLB.

[pbmax]

If the OLB gets into the backfield quick enough, it disrupts things even if he doesn't make the tackle

It doesn't disrupt a thing if the offense simply runs through the wide open gap he leaves as he rushes upfield (think KGB) or pancakes him if he stays in the interior.

If I was an OC facing Burks at OLB as a starter, I would run every play right at his facemask.

You need some bulk to mix it up on the line, Burks is a large safety.

Now, could you use Burks quickness to blitz? Absolutely. But there are no guarantees. It takes a different set of physical skills to get the QB down than it does to quickly penetrate the line. He also will need to defeat a RB, who might be bigger than he is.

[pbmax]

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

The best part of Matthews at ILB was Nick Perry at OLB. Perry was a wall at OLB and no one ran at him after a while. When they did, it hurt the offense. 75% of the improvement that year was Perry starting at OLB in pace of Matthews. The phrase you are looking for is almost Peppers level end play.

Matthews was a tremendous step up in athletic ability at ILB compared to the replacement level dreck that was available. But he had no instincts, was late to diagnose and as a result, did a lot of guessing. His best traits were his speed (if he guessed close to right he could get there) and his tackling. Things that got hit tended to stay down. The word you are looking for here is freakishly athletic stopgap. Go search for Nutz and Matthews and ILB and you will find some finer breakdowns of his shortcomings at ILB.

I could see an argument that Burks and Ahmad Thomas aren't ready and Matthews is still a monster step up in ability inside when you need two ILB. The problem is that Peppers isn't here anymore. Perry is already starting. And if the depth at ILB is bad, it might be worse at OLB. You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

I have Mack penciled in as starter. Otherwise it makes no sense to move CM, agreed.

[texaspackerbacker]

I thought he did a good job the year he played that position. The complaint was "we miss his edge rush." They moved him back outside and we still miss it.

I bet Matthews is better than Ryan inside. But I defer to the football experts, especially the ultimate hard but unfair judge, Wist. What say you, Wist?

+ 1

[Joemailman]

The best part of Matthews at ILB was Nick Perry at OLB. Perry was a wall at OLB and no one ran at him after a while. When they did, it hurt the offense. 75% of the improvement that year was Perry starting at OLB in pace of Matthews. The phrase you are looking for is almost Peppers level end play.

Matthews was a tremendous step up in athletic ability at ILB compared to the replacement level dreck that was available. But he had no instincts, was late to diagnose and as a result, did a lot of guessing. His best traits were his speed (if he guessed close to right he could get there) and his tackling. Things that got hit tended to stay down. The word you are looking for here is freakishly athletic stopgap. Go search for Nutz and Matthews and ILB and you will find some finer breakdowns of his shortcomings at ILB.

I could see an argument that Burks and Ahmad Thomas aren't ready and Matthews is still a monster step up in ability inside when you need two ILB. The problem is that Peppers isn't here anymore. Perry is already starting. And if the depth at ILB is bad, it might be worse at OLB. You would have to count on Reggie Gilbert, which is no sure thing to say the least.

Are you talking about 2014, when they moved Matthews inside in the middle of the season? Or 2015? In 2015 Perry started only 1 game, and had the worst tackle numbers of his career. Did he replace Peppers on run downs, and replace Neal on passing downs? I don't remember what the rotation was like.

The run defense did improve in 2014 when Matthews was moved inside after the New Orleans game and bye week.

[pbmax]

Are you talking about 2014, when they moved Matthews inside in the middle of the season? Or 2015? In 2015 Perry started only 1 game, and had the worst tackle numbers of his career. Did he replace Peppers on run downs, and replace Neal on passing downs? I don't remember what the rotation was like.

The run defense did improve in 2014 when Matthews was moved inside after the New Orleans game and bye week.

2014 when Matthews moved inside.

[bobblehead]

It takes a different set of physical skills to get the QB down than it does to quickly penetrate the line. He also will need to defeat a RB, who might be bigger than he is.

Just so I understand, you are saying penetration is the easy part, but finishing is the real talent.

[pbmax]

Just so I understand, you are saying penetration is the easy part, but finishing is the real talent.

In my experience, achieving penetration is the real talent (find your opposite number, wait for the cadence, find your gap). Most people can finish once that is achieved. If not, there are pharma options.

But back to pass rushing, I don't know how to quantify the number of quick burst artists versus crazy short space quickness artists, so not sure about which is more rare.

But you do need the ability to put yourself in position to get the QB down to get a sack. Too many guys have a lane, get there, and with a small step up or out, miss the QB entirely.

[bobblehead]

In my experience, achieving penetration is the real talent (find your opposite number, wait for the cadence, find your gap). Most people can finish once that is achieved. If not, there are pharma options.

But back to pass rushing, I don't know how to quantify the number of quick burst artists versus crazy short space quickness artists, so not sure about which is more rare.

But you do need the ability to put yourself in position to get the QB down to get a sack. Too many guys have a lane, get there, and with a small step up or out, miss the QB entirely.

I was more thinking about finishing the defense.

[Zool]

This thread got a whole lot sexier recently.